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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A08426	A true report of the disputation or rather priuate conference had in the Tower of London, with Ed. Campion Iesuite, the last of August. 1581. Set downe by the reuerend learned men them selues that dealt therein. VVhereunto is ioyned also a true report of the other three dayes conferences had there with the same Iesuite. Which nowe are thought meete to be published in print by authoritie	Nowell, Alexander, 1507?-1602.; Day, William, 1529-1596. aut; Fielde, John, d. 1588.; Fulke, William, 1538-1589. aut; Goad, Roger, 1538-1610. aut; Campion, Edmund, Saint, 1540-1581. aut; Walker, John, d. 1588. aut; Charke, William, d. 1617. aut	1583 (1583)	STC 18744; ESTC S113389	169,017	230

an ende And then turning vs to the auditorie we said You haue heard howe Master Campion in his printed booke hath charged vs as rasers manglers and spoylers of the holy Scriptures of meere desperation and distrust in our cause as he saith You haue heard how he would proue vs so to be by certeine places by him in his said printed booke noted as being the wordes of Luther and others in their bookes You haue heard and seene proued by the bookes them selues that there is no such thing to be founde in those places of their bookes as he hath set downe but onely that S. Hierome and Eusebius aboue a thousande yeere sithen doubted of the authoritie of those Epistles bookes And you haue heard and it is vniuersally knowen that S. Hieroms Prologue and Epistle wherein he noteth those bookes to be Apocrypha haue bene ioyned with all Bibles that haue bene written and printed euer since S. Hieromes time by the space of a xi hundred yeeres and more vntill now of late sithen the Tridētine Councill some Popish Printers haue left them out And you haue heard that not onely now of late the Councill Tridentine hath made the Apocrypha of equal authoritie with the vndoubted Canonical scriptures but also that it is set down in the B. of Romes Canon law that his Decretal epistles are to be numbred together among the Canonical scriptures so finally you see what iniurie these men do thēselues to the holy scriptures what blasphemy they haue cōmitted in matching their fables with the Canonical scriptures who do most vniustly charge vs with those crimes Sherwin said but you should haue told withall what we haue answered to all those pointes We said your answere is to be looked for when you can bring foorth your copies which you speake of and promised for in any bookes by you named extant and to be had there is nothing of that which M. Campion hath set downe to be found And here the time being spent we made an end for that forenoones conferēce The after noones conference IN the fore noones conference both Master Campion himselfe others of his companions had oftentimes required vs that we woulde deale with them in some matter of doctrine and leaue that course that we began with in the examining of his booke Whereunto we answered that we were minded if the time would suffer vs to examine other partes of his booke and lay it open to the audience there howe that as he had most vntruly charged Luther and others with the mangling and spoyling of the bodie of the holy Scriptures in the beginning of his booke so had he likewise most vntruly and impudently in other places slaundered other worthie men and vpon the same his good groundes he had charged vs all as rasers and manglers of the holy Scriptures And surely our opinion was that if any thing at all that laying open before his face of his continuall vntrueths which he hath so braggingly aduouched in his booke might haue reclaimed him For vndoubtedly he could neuer haue endured the manifestation of those his lyes as they were in the confutation of his booke shortly after set out had they bene layde open before his eyes which might manifestly appeare to all that did marke his gentle and milde behauiour and speach in the After noones conference in comparison of his bragging and lewde wordes vsed in the forenoone Notwithstanding at our meeting at after noone we sayde vnto Master Campion seeing your desire is so much to dispute in some matter of doctrine we will not refuse But first we pray you let vs qd we peruse the Canon that foloweth that which we last dealt with in the fore noone concerning the Popes Canons and the Canonicall Scriptures for that the time would not then suffer vs to reade it The wordes of Pope Leo the fourth there translated worde for worde are these For this cause I feare not to pronounce more plainely and with a loude voyce that he that is conuinced not to receiue indifferently the statutes of the holy fathers which we haue spoken of before which with vs are intituled by the name of Canons whether he be a Bishop a Clarke or a laye man that he is proued neither to beleeue nor to holde profitably and effectually to his effect the Catholique and Apostolique faith nor the foure holy Gospels This saith Pope Leo. You may see quoth we whereunto this boldnesse of matching mens writings with the holy Canonical Scriptures is come Fore here Pope Leo with a loude voyce pronounceth that whosoeuer doeth not indifferently receiue the Canons is conuicted neither to reteine effectually nor beleeue the Catholique and Apostolique faith nor the foure holy Gospels whereby he matcheth the beleeuing receiuing or refusing of his Canons with the beleeuing or refusing of the foure holy Gospels for so we said that the proofe of that Canon and the worde indifferently did importe Master Campion indeuoured very much to quallifie this worde indifferentèr indifferently and so to mollifie the Popes blasphemie if he coulde and he confessed that there was difference betweene the Euangelistes and other writers for that the Euangelistes and writers of the Scriptures coulde not erre in memorie or any other circumstance but Councils might be deceiued in some such small matters of circumstance As for example sayeth he I am bounde vnder paine of damnation to beleeue that Tobias dogge had a tayle because it is written he wagged his tayle It was sayd by vs that it became him not to deale so triflingly in matters of such waight Why then saith he if this example like you not take another I must beleeue that Saint Paul had a cloake because hee willeth Timothie to bring his cloake We said these thinges were nothing to purpose vnlesse hee could proue that such a promise was made to the bishop of Rome and his Coūcils that whatsoeuer they should determine was sure to be true and certaine They alleaged Christes saying Hee that heareth not the Church let him be reputed as a publicane and heathen We answered that text serued them for all purposes But first they must proue them selues to be the true Church before that text would belong vnto them And where they alleaged out of the 15. of the Actes So it seemeth to the holy Ghost and vs. Wee answered wee knewe well enough that that Councill was gouerned by the holy Ghost wherein the Apostles were president But what maketh that to the wicked Councils of Popes And after much reasoning about the worde indifferenter we said were that word put out yet were it blasphemie to saye that he that beleeueth not the Popes Canōs which are with other there mentioned beleeueth not the foure holy Gospels After this wee began our disputation concerning iustification both for that it is first of all other mentioned in your booke quoth we to Master Campion and both Luther and we all are most grieuously charged by you

booke of Wisedome Ecclesiasticus Maccabees c. which your Councill of Trent thrust in as authenticall But to leaue that it is plaine that Cyprian vpō the Creede omitteth al that Apocrypha hauing rehearsed those which be Canonicall he sayth Haec sunt quae patres intra Canonem concluserunt ex quibus fidei nostrae assertiones constare voluerunt Sciendum tamen est quod alii libri sunt qui non Canonici sed Ecclesiastici a maioribus appellati sunt vt est Sapientia Salomonis Ecclesiasticus libellus Tobiae Iudith Machabaeorum libri quae omnia in ecclesijs legi voluerunt non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex ijs fidei confirmandam These are those thinges which the fathers shut within the Canon by which they would haue the assertions of our fayth to stande Notwithstanding we must know that there are other bookes also which of our Elders were called Ecclesiast and not Canonicall as Salomons booke of Wisd. Ecclus. the bookes of Tobias Iudeth the Macca all which they would haue read in the Church and yet not brought forth to confirme the authoritie of fayth out of them Camp He is called cōmonly Author expositionis in Symbolum and therefore doubtfull whether it were Cyprian or no but admit it were I answere to these and all such like places that when particular Fathers particular Councils doe recken vp such such books omit others that either were receiued there or in other places sithens they recken vp such as were thē come to their knowledge and such as were approued in that part of the worlde where they thē liued But it followeth not they reckened no more Ergo there were no more They doubted therefore we must acknowledge no more For the Church hath since put them out of doubt Walker You answere not but trifle For those are not onely omitted and left vnreckoned but they are set downe for Apocrypha or Ecclesiastici so certaynely named and not Canonical Camp Some might bee set downe then as doubtfull that nowe are out of doubt because they are receiued Charke Hitherto you haue gone from the matter wherein I haue bene willing to followe you a little to cleare the poynt that then was in hande when I began with you Nowe let vs come to the questions agreed of betweene vs. Camp Nay let vs first speake of the authoritie of the Scripture then if you will of the sufficiencie Charke Of the authoritie we haue spoken alreadie and it is not within our question which is onely of sufficiencie Camp I deferre to the scriptures all authoritie and all sufficiencie therefore you haue nothing against me Charke Yes I haue this against you that you doe not thinke the scriptures onely and alone sufficient to all doctrine of fayth and maners For whatsoeuer you say we knowe you holde and teache the contrary namely that all things are not set downe and written in the worde This other day you were still calling for Syllogismes and when you had receiued a blowe and stoode astonied vnder it yet you cryed out a Syllogisme a Syllogisme to make men beleeue that you were not touched Now you shal haue Syllogismes answere to them directly and shortly Thus I proue the sufficiencie of the scripture without traditions What the Apostles taught viua voce by liuely voyce that also they wrote But they taught viua voce whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Therefore they wrote also whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Camp Nego argumentum I deny the Argument Charke It is a Syllogisme you woulde haue denied my Maior I thinke Camp Proue your Maior then Charke What care they had ouer the Churches present the same care they had ouer the Churches to come afterwarde But their care ouer the Churches present was to open to them all the counsell of God Therefore they left the like prouision in writing to al posterity that they might be instructed in all the counsell of God Camp I answere to the Maior They had the same care but in such sort as it was expedient It was not expedient that they shoulde write all and euery sillable that they spake and yet notwithstanding they disclosed all the counsell of God either in speciall or generall words written Charke Uery wel then we are come to the issue of the matter and you graunt the question that all doctrine both concerning faith and maners is either in speciall or generall words conteined in the Scripture Camp I agree But heare mine answere out of S. Augustine against Crestonius Where it can not be aduouched in scripture by speciall words that the baptisme of heretikes is good yet it is deliuered in the scripture by generall wordes forasmuch as the scripture doeth command vs to obey the Church which hath allowed this baptisme being conferred in forma Ecclesiae So the doctrines not particularly discoursed in scriptures are yet conteyned in these wordes Obey your prelates The Church is the pillar and supporter of trueth And if he heare not the Church let him be to thee an Ethnike and Publicane Charke You say particular matters are conteined in those general words Obey your Prelates Do you meane that we must obey them in causes not conteined in the word Then you may binde vs to what you list and disalowe what yee please Therefore syr that I may seeke your corners and finde you out what meane you by this when you say that Generall commandementes allowe particular traditions Camp I named not traditions Charke But it is the effect and scope of your speache for obedience to your Church Prelates in matters not expressed in the Scriptures Camp I saye there be poyntes wherein wee accorde with you as the baptisme of heretiques the baptisme of infantes the holy ghost proceeding from the father and the sonne that baptisme is a Sacrament and Preaching is none being both commaunded at one time that the Eucharist is a Sacrament and washing of feete none being commanded at one time and such like c. Charke To say that the proceeding of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne is not expressed in the scripture is a blasphemous speach Camp Shewe me any sentence expressing it in the scripture Charke It sufficeth to shewe it inferred in the scripture by good proofes of consequence implication But what say you to traditions decrees and such like which the Church of Rome maintayneth as the very word it selfe Let vs speake of them being now in question and not breake out into newe matters not in controuersie Camp I will not go from my question Charke You shall come to it if you take vpon you the defence of your traditions which I disproue in this maner If the Apostles left nothing vnwritten that is necessarie to saluation the scriptures are sufficient But the Apostles haue left nothing vnwritten necessarie to saluation Therefore the scriptures are sufficient Camp I graūt it as before referring it to that

purpose is not to deale by discourse but briefely by Logical arguments according to the order of schooles c. After he had inquired D. Fulkes name Campion also spake after this maner Campion The disputation that I desire is yet behinde for I desire it might bee in the Uniuersities This may bee called a conference but it is not the disputation which I require Besides these conferences are vnequall both in respect of the suddainnesse of them as also for want of such necessary helpes as were fitte and conuenient I see that you haue some appoynted to note as if it were made a solemne matter I shoulde haue the like so shoulde I haue come better furnished and all these might haue bene better profited Besides I haue bene yll dealt withall already things heretofore spoken by me haue bene mistaken and published in print otherwise then I euer meant D. Fulke For the suddennesse it is all alike with vs. Master Lieutenant sent you worde by my request to chuse the question your selfe on Saturday last at noone so that you had knowledge of the question as soone as we and also the choyse and appointing thereof As for the noting it is not made so solemne a matter that it can preiudice you but to preuent false reportes that may bee spread of the conference iniurious as well to you as to vs. As for the disputation you require it is not at our appoyntment It must be ordred by them that are to appoynt both you and vs. We come by commandement c. but let vs goe to the matter You slaunder vs and Master Caluine likewise in the thirde chapter of your booke for defining of the Catholike Church as we do You say we make it a Platonicall Idaea an ayrie thing that is no where c. But I will proue that it is against the nature of the Catholike Church at any time to be visible Campion Where do I slaunder you or Caluine Reade my booke I wil maintaine my booke and euery part of it And as for the Catholike Church I will mayntaine that from the time of Adam to Christ and from Christ vnto vs the Church hath bene visible But because you say I slaunder you and Caluine shewe my wordes D. Fulke These are your wordes Non est ausus contrauenire sonitu videri noluit Ecclesiae quam toties Scripturae commemorant refragari nomen callidè retinuit rem ipsam funditùs definiendo sustulit c. And ye quote Cal. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. Sect. 2. 3. Here you plainely slaunder Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church comprehending all the elect of God that haue bene are or shal be to be inuisible Camp The Catholike Church is considered according to her parts triumphant in heauen and militant on earth generally particularly and I am ready to maintaine that alwayes the militant Church in earth is visible euery 〈◊〉 in his mayer knoweth this who in their prayers pray for the Church militant therefore this is the poynt whether this be alwayes visible Fulke Wel then it appeareth in the very beginning that you swarue from the title of your owne booke sclaundering vs without cause for the definition of the whole Catholike Church and Sophistically you goe from the whole to a parte from the Catholike Church to the Church militant which is but a part of it when as the whole Catholike Church comprehendeth all the elect and is the full body of Christ that filleth all in all things as the Apostle sayeth and as we confesse in the articles of our faith We beleeue the Catholike church We deny not that the church militant sometime is visible but we affirme that the whole Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen is not visible And what cause haue you then to exclaime vpon Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church to be inuisible This we are here ready to prooue Camp I haue sayd that vpon earth the Church is alwayes visible But I pray you let vs speake of the Church militant I am sure these gentlemen would heare not of a Church of Saints in heauen but of a Church in earth w●…etd they may ioyne themselues what shoulde we talke of the Church in heauen They would rather knowe I am sure of what Church they are here Aske them Fulke Wel then you are found recreant in this paynt openly to sclaunder our definition to be such as should take away the nature of the Church in that we make it inuisible and now when it commeth to the tryall you will not deale with the Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen but with a part of it to witte that which is vpon earth which wee neuer denyed in some sense to be alwayes visible because it consisteth of men vpō earth although it be not alwayes seene because it is oftentimes hidden from the worlde and sometimes also from the true members thereof But this Church vpon earth you wil haue to be alwaies visible Seeing therefore you giue ouer y● defence of your slaūder of our definition of the Catholike Church which we came prepared to maintaine we are ready also to reason of the church militāt Campion The state of the question is that the Church militant vpon earth can not be hidden but it is alwayes knowen so that a man may vnderstand of what Church he is c. Fulke The case may be such as a member can know no more but himselfe what meane you by visible Campion I meane to be visible is to knowe one another to meete at Sacraments when I can tell that I am of this church and you of that I a Catholike and you a Protestant as I certainely know there is a Church in Fraunce a church in Spaine and in Flaunders though I be farre from it and we may knowe one another a member can say This is my pastor these are my prelates and gouernours This is playne I would to God I had one also to write for me I pray you let me not be mistaken for I haue had great wrong that wayes and thinges haue bene put in print that I neuer spake or meant Fulke If we haue this discoursing we shal neuer haue done I would you would be briefe I will prooue from a place of scripture that the church militant vnderstanding visible as you say is not alwayes visible in earth Elias complaineth that he was left alone c. Ergo the Church was not then visible Campion I deny the Antecedent further declare the meaning of the place which maketh altogether for me For Elias setteth out the schismatical church of the Samaritanes In this schismaticall church a member being driuen out as sometime it falleth out to be the worlde turning and changing he might not know the rest but yet knew there were 7000. that neuer bowed their knees to Baal Agayne you must not bring a particular to ouerthrowe a generall There were none there therefore

there were none in other places But this place is an excellent place against you For as the Prophet complained there so we may iustly complaine now O Lord they haue forsaken thy couenāt they haue destroyed thine altars and slayne thy prophetes with the sword and I am left alone c. Yet no doubt there were many as for example I might haue complayned of Geneua when I was there that I had bene alone not knowing of any other Catholike there Were all the Protestants in England in Queene Maries time gone were there none and are all Catholikes nowe gone Whatsoeuer they bee I knowe certainely there is a Church in Fraunce c. And so then there was a florishing church in Iudea vnder Asa and Iehosaphat whither Elias was flying for succour and reliefe c. Fulke I thought wee should haue discoursing You declare your selfe vtterly ignorant in all this matter For where were these wordes spoken Cāp They were spokē as he was flying into Iudea to y● church whither he knew to repaire teaching vs what to do in y● like case Fulke That is not true they were spoken in mount Horeb as he was in the wildernes after he was fled from the persecution of Iezebel when she had determined his death Campion The text is playne Venitque Beersebae Iudeae c. He came to Beerseba of Iudea c. Fulke His flight was into the wildernes Beersheba was in his way where he left his seruant so went forward into the wildernes For Beersheba was the vtmost towne in Iudea towards Horeb both Beersheba the wildernes of Arabia were from Iudea towards Horeb. And therefore the text sayth Ipse verò perexit He went forward c. continuing his iourney to the wildernesse and therefore it is not true you sayd he went into Iudea to ioyne himselfe with the Church or to seeke reliefe there Campion But his complaynt was of a particular place for the Church florished in Iudea vnder two notable kinges Asa and Iehosaphat And when he sayeth Ego solus he meaneth that hee was the onely prophet that was left c. Fulke This answere cannot stand with the oracle which pronounceth that God had left 7000. true worshippers Wherefore it is manifest that Elias thought himselfe the onely true worshipper that was left in Israel except you will say there were 7000. prophets whereof he was ignorant But ye answere y● the church was then so visible that he knew whither to resort But I will proue y● the church of Iudea vnto which y● cōgregation of Israel if they be a true church must be ioyned was so inuisible at some time that it had not so much as the face of a church whither any mā in Elias case might resort It is written 2. king 16. that vnder y● raigne of Achas there was taken a paterne of the Altar of the idolaters of Damascus that Vrias the high Priest remoued the Altar of the Lord. Whereby it appeareth that the priesthoode was corrupted the altar was remoued and the sacrifices vtterly ceased c. Campion That might well bee For there might be such a time and the case might so fall out that there could be no exercise of the priestly function yet it might remaine visible ynough c. Fulke Uery wel what visibilitie could there be in those daies of Achas Manasses and such like when there was no face at all of an outward Church neither in the head nor in the members whē the high Priest was become an idolater How could they knowe whither to resort the Temple being defiled and the priesthoode it selfe so defiled with idolatrie c. Camp What meane you by the face of a Church It might for all this be knowen though they could not exercise their function Fulke How could that be when there was no outward forme of a Church it fayled in the head in the chiefe in the members There was no place for their publike sacrifices seeing that only place to which they were bounde to resort was defiled with heathenish idolatrie For it must be there and no where else And I doubt not but there were particular members that were knowen to God or might knowe one another yet was there not a visible Church as you determine of the worde visible to be when men know their pastors prelates and the place whither to resort c. Campion I say the dayes were as these dayes are nowe to Catholikes or as they were to you in the daies of Queene Mary to them that are in prison yet we know there were protestants left and those that were in prison knew well inough to resort vnto them that were abroade and so of the Catholikes though nowe Masse be forbidden and the execution of their priesthood yet Catholikes know Catholikes and whither to resort for the exercise of Catholike religion Fulke But in Iudaea they knewe not whither to resort when the temple it selfe was defiled where onely by the law of God the sacrifice was appoynted to be offered Therefore although there were a Church then yet it could not be visible Camp Reade the wordes The kinges of Iuda were as our kings as I said before the times turned there was many changes But doeth this follow there is no church in England where Masse is said which I dare say many catholikes loue would go a great way to heare with all their hearts Ergo there are no Catholikes in England They had no open Cōmunions in Queene Maries time ergo there were none c. Fulke You make bolde cōparisons you cloye vs with wordes and goe from the matter We say not that the Church could euer perish out of the earth for one moment of time or that they were not because they were not seene but wee saye against your assertion the Church in Iudaea was not visible because there was neither place nor sacrifice nor high Priest c. The Priest was wicked the Temple was defiled c. Nowe all kingdomes may professe religion and haue their exercises thereof in all places though they could not doe so in Iudaea Campion You haue made a good argument for mee Master Doctor I will knit it vp with this though they might onely exercise in the Temple yet we may euery where and though Elias sawe them not yet there were thousandes so though it be not permitted now to say Masse publikely and to exercise our functions yet there are thousandes Fulke Here is nothing but repetitions All this is not denied but where is the visibilitie of this Church vpon earth knowen to men as for God he alwayes knoweth them that are his when the head Pastor and the only place of exercise of Iewish religion was corrupt Campion And yet there was Tobias in Israel and other Fulke That is not the matter it was not visible because they had no other place to exercise in but the Temple at Ierusalem which at these times was

but because of these hearers wee should seeke most for edification and it is the speciall cause of our meeting Goade Thus then I reason This speciall place alleadged by those of your side can not be vnderstoode of the Church Ergo it proues not this visibilitie Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade I would be glad for the better waying of this place that you would remember what your selfe hath written concerning the finding out of the sense of any place of Scripture in the second chapter of your booke I would you had bene as reasonable in other thinges of your booke and then we should haue agreed better for the rule is very good to helpe to the true sense that the circumstances of the place be considered the wordes that goe before that followe after the scope the clauses and whole context Nowe both out of that which goeth before and of that which followeth out of the whole scope and drift of the place it is euident to be spoken onely of the Apostles and their successors in the ministerie Ergo it is onely to be vnderstoode of them and not of the whole Church Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade Whatsoeuer is spoken properly of the Apostles doctrine and life can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church But this is properly spoken of their doctrine and life Therefore it can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church Campion You must not petere principium It was not onely spoken in respect of the Apostles function but of y● who le church no otherwise then as the Apostles were Christians including the whole Church Goade Then that commaundement Bibite ex hoc omnes Drinke ye all of this spoken to the Apostles much more must include the whole Church being spoken of the sacrament which appertaineth to all and yet ye exclude the people from the cuppe Campion This was not spoken to them as they were Christians but in respect of their function as they were priestes the other was spoken as they were Christians Goade Neither of these is true but briefely deny one part of my argument Campion I deny the minor Goade Out of the circumstāces of the place and conclusion it is manifest that it is properly spoken of the Apostles doctrine and life and not of the whole Church Consider the wordes Vos estis sal terrae You are the salt of the earth Vos estis lux mundi c. You are the light of the worlde Non potest ciuitas abscondi c. A citie can not be hid Then the conclusion Sic luceat lux vestra So let your light shine c. You are the salt of the earth noteth the Apostles doctrine wherwith they should seasō others You are the light of the worlde noteth their life whereupon all mens eyes are cast and so can no more be hid then a citie vpon an hill Both these poyntes are proper to the ministerie and hereupon the conclusion inferred So let your light shine c. Campion You haue very well answered your selfe For the text conteineth both There is the salt and the earth the light and the world who must season and who must be seasoned who must shine and to whom they must shine Do you not see plainely that he includeth both the teachers and them that are taught c. Goade Nowe you fall to discoursing cleane besides the purpose It is true that the one can not be without the other but yet it is playne that to season to lighten and to be set as vpon an hill is proper alone to the Apostles and their ministerie For the drift and scope of the place is onely to set forth the Apostles doctrine conuersation and you violently wrest it to the whole Church The life of the ministerie is as it were set vpon an high stage the light of their conuersation is looked vnto of all what is this to the visibilitie of the whole Church Campion Uery wel doth a candle shine to it selfe and is not a master of a familie a Master and that which is spoken to him may it not be sayd also to them Goade I pray you howe holdeth this argument The life and doctrine of the ministerie is as it were set vpon a stage for all men to looke vnto and therefore they are called the salte of the earth the light of the worlde Ergo the whole Church is visible This is the force of your argument from this place Camp I haue sayd the text maketh not for you It is not vnderstoode of their ministerie and life only as they were Apostles but as they were Christians Goade As I haue proued this out of the text so nowe I will shewe this to be the sense out of the Fathers both Chrysostome and Ierome vpon the place Campion You may spare your labour you shall neuer finde Doctor that vnderstandeth it onely of the ministerie I tell you that aforehand Goade Yes I will shew out of Chrysostome that it is onely vnderstoode of the ministerie and of their life in the afternoone according to your request the place shal be shewed Campion It is a common and an vsuall kinde of speache to vtter that to the master which is meant to the seruants Goade Wil you beleeue none but your selfe hearken what Saint Hierome sayth vpon this place Campion Yes if you would beleeue Hierome as well as I we should be soone agreed What thinke you is Hierome of your religion would you be of his Goade I would not be of any mans religion to buylde vpon man I holde neither of one nor other but of Christ and grounde my religion onely vpon his worde But remember your strong place you spake of to proue the perpetual visibilitie of the church Let vs heare what it is Campion Shall I then haue one argument Goade Yea let vs heare it you shal be answered though it be not your part to oppose Campion It is out of Matthew chap. 18. Dic Ecclesiae Tell the Church I will proue out of this place that the Church of necessitie must continually be visible I proue it thus This is a commaundement that is perpetuall and must be alwayes executed in the Church But that can not be vnlesse the Church be visible Ergo the visibilitie of the Church is continuall Goade I distinguish of the maior When the Church is gathered may retaine a face when it doeth-execute gouernment hath a consistorie to heare matters then it ought to be done but this cannot be alwayes had being often hindered by persecution Camp Offences betweene brother brother happen alwaies and this is the medicine and remedy There is no age wherein there are not offences where shal I seeke the perpetual remedy that is appointed vnles the Church be perpetually visible Goade I haue said before Whē there is a state an established Church this remedy is to be sought for But this cannot alwaies be had because the militant afflicted church oftentimes