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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	hand_n	imposition_n	ordination_n	2,839	5	9.9482	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A77724	A publick disputation sundry dayes at Killingworth in Warwick-shire, betwixt John Bryan, doctor in divinity (minister at Coventry) and John Onley, pastor of a church at Lawford. Upon this question, whether the parishes of this nation generally be true churches. Wherin are nine arguments alleged in proof of the affirmative of the question, with the answer of I. O. thereunto, together with Doctor B. Reply. Also an addition of ten arguments more in further proof of the question, with an answer adjoyned in disproof thereof. Published by both their consents, as appears by the ensuing epistles.	Bryan, John, d. 1676.; Onley, John.	1655 (1655)	Wing B5245; Thomason E823_9; ESTC R207672	61,370	75

him that was none himself how the Bishops could confer that power to you that they never had themselves is a mystery you hold that Ordination is Essential to Preaching now except you be able to prove your personal succession of ministry from the Apostles and that they do lineally succeed without interruption your Ordination is false for except there be a personal succession uninterrupted by heresy or whatsoever else may nullify a Ministers calling from the Apostles time to this present for if there be but one who when he ordained was no Minister or not ordained all that were ordained by him are no Ministers if Ordination be essential now if there should be a personal succession this drawes with it a perpetual visibility of a Church which when and where it is to be found in the dark times of Popery I desire to see for though there were Godly men yet not a visible Church with a right-ordained and ordaining Ministry Secondly were it granted that all the Bishops were true Ministers Lineal succession c. That as you were ordained I deny that you were right set in those Parishes if they were Churches as they are not according to Eph. 4. for First he must be enabled with abilities from God for that work Ephes 4. 8. Rom. 12. 6. 1 Cor. 12 11. Together with Grace to walk suitably thereunto 1 Tim. 3. 23. tit 1 6 7 8. Secondly being thus fitted with abilities the Church that is in want of Officers seeing such Men fit for the work are to Elect such Men for the Service they are enabled to perform Acts 14. 23. They ordained i. e. they Elected and Chose so the word ordained is put where the Scripture speaks expresly of Chusing Acts 1. 22. So saith one of your own Divines they made them by voices the matter went to suffrages which could not be betwixt Paul and Barnabas Election by most voices or lifting up of hands in token of a suffrage had place only amongst a multitude assembled together so Acts 1. 23. They the Church appointed two and although the Lord shewed by lot which of the two yet it was the Churches Act to reduce it to two so Acts 6. 5. The Argument will hold good from the less to the greater if the Church must chuse a Deacon in the time the Apostles were present and an inferior Officer much more a Pastor that they were so highly concern'd in and it is contrary to all reason that the Church should be debar'd of the choice of her own Officers after which Ordination by Imposition of hands Acts 6. 6. onely to signify the setting apart of that Man to that which he is chosen to In the Apostles time the Holy Ghost was given by it but now as the Miracle so the Mystery is ceased and if it be used to that end still it is false the end being ceased Now you were set in these Parishes by the Bishops clean contrary like Men minding directly to oppose Christ in all they did for first when Men proceeded to such degrees in the Universities they made them Ministers in that they had attained to so much literature and not only in regard of their having received abilities from God with grace to walk up thereunto which only ought to be the ground upon which they ought to be judged fit for that work as appeareth from hence in that they ordained many that were ignorant sots in the knowledge of the things of God that with all their wit could not tell how to make a Sermon in their way of sermon making except they could patch up an houres talk out of others works and then come read it to the people which is no Preaching they had better bring their great books where their Sermons are made to their hands read out of them for First It would save them much paixes Secondly It would not cozen their hearers Thirdly It would not be robbery to their owner and so far have many of them been short of grace to live holy lives which is as absolutely required as gif●s 1 Tim. 3. 3. and Tit. 1. 0 7. as that experience shewes their works are abominable Secondly as they went upon a wrong ground so in a wrong manner For first they made them Ministers before they had a flock to Minister to which was ridiculous seeing that Pastor and Flock are Relates the one gives being and the Essential Constituting Cause to the other and if it be foolish to say a Man may be a father and have had no child a busband and no wife it is also as foolish to say a Man a Minister a Pastor without a flock the like reason in both So election by the Church which is to give the very being to a Pastor in relation to the Office he is to perform so as without which he may not perform the work this is altogether left out and a violent intrusion by the help of the Patron a thing unheard-of in Gods Word is come in its stead and Ordination which is to be a solemn setting and Confirming of such a Man into that work he is chosen being the last this is made first and Christs order directly changed First from hence it appeares that the Ministers of this Nation are not rightly set into the Office of the Ministery and so their Churches no true Churches and what help your other two Reasons will afford comes now to examination You say by their abilities 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and then by Gods blessing on their endeavors I answer if these be particulars to wit of some of the Ministers of these Parishes they include not the Question which is of all generally but if generally all the Ministers of these Parishes of whom the Question is I deny that they are generally able to divide the Word of Truth as our Translations render it for if they be you did very ill to call them dumb dogs greedy dogs as you did they are so far from rightly dividing the Word of Truth as that the Word of Truth is a Mystery to them as daily experience sheweth and what this Exhortation of Paul to Timothy study to shew thy self c. Is to prove that all the Covetous Ignorant Drunken Priests of this Nation are able to do so too is a Mystery to me the like may be answered to the next what blessing is to be seen in the labours of such Men I know not where like Priest like People almost generally for where they have an Ignorant drunken Priest such commonly are the People as it is easy to instance in too many and what 's the words of Paul 2 Cor. 3. Ye are our Epistle c. to prove that there is the like effects by the Ministers of the Parishes of this Nation generally upon their hearers as was by Paul upon the Corinthians I can in no wise see and truly Sir I must tell you that I cannot but think that cause to be

way finally the Apostle Peter commands us all to be ready alwaies to give an answer to every Man that asketh us a reason of the hope that is in us with meekness and fear if Gods honour and the good of those who ask require it both which I apprehended were concerned in my yielding to your motion and therefore embraced it le●ving the issue to God and for the same reason have I yielded to your secod motion made in the close of the third or fourth days disputation viz. that your Arguments and Answers and Replies and Rejoynders upon the first question might be put in Print and to your Proviso that at present I should make no Reply unto your answer to the Ten last Arguments as you would no Rejoynder to my Reply upon your Answers to the Nine first and if you have a mind you may rejoin your engagement to the contrary I free you from yea and give you liberty which you have already taken all along without check to oppose what you please and to take in also the help of Master Morley and those other seven who assisted you in disputation that the utmost you and they can object further against our Parish Churches may come under our view onely for your Readers sake I could wish you would forbear instead of arguing to make any more excursions by tedious impertinent Declamations against our Ministers and Members wherein all your Answers for the most part spend themselves which yet the Men of your own way will admire seriously but all others of any competent understanding ironically using Jobs words to Bildad Chap. 26. 3. How hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is suffer me to speak my thoughts and hopes when all is that can be said by their self or any other to overthrow the Parochial Assemblies of this Nation they will stand like Mount Sion which though it may be moved in its place cannot be removed out of its place and the Presbyterian Government which we are endeavouring to settle in our Congregations will prove like the Palm tree quae non cedit ponderi sed surgit adversum pondus Nor do I doub but when Christ our King hath turned his hand upon us and purely purg'd away our dross and taken away all our tin he will set up his throne and keep a standing Majesty in the midst of these golden Candle-sticks then they that are our enemies shall see and shame shall cover them which said unto us where is the Lord your God mean time we will bear the indignation of the Lord because we have sinned against him untill he plead our cause and execute judgement for us yea though he suffer you to kill us after three days and a half we shall revive and stand upon our feet and many out of all languages separate Societies shall relinquish their dividing principles and practices and take hold of the skirt of a Gospel Presbyterian saying we will go with you for we have heard that God is with you this is the hope and shall be the Prayer of Your loving friend and servant in the Lord JOHN BRYAN That the National Congregations of England are the true Churches of Christ saith Dr. John Bryan Minister in Coventry and these are his Arguments to prove it as followeth Denyed by Mr. JOHN ONLY with the grounds of his dissent in Answers to his Arguments WHether the Parishes of this Nation generally be true Quest Churches Those Societies which the true Churches of Christ Argument 1. Dr. B. generally throughout the world own and acknowledge to be true Churches they are true Churches but the Parish Assemblies of England are so own'd and acknowledged therefore the Parish Assemblies of England are true Churches The Minor is undeniable for all the Reformed Churches of Europe gave us the right hand of Fellowship when we were much more corrupt then now and so have all the Churches of New-England done in their Treatise of Church Covenant and Answer to 32. Questions I put you to name one Church in the world that doth not acknowledge the Church of England to be the Spouse of Christ The Major is thus proved if the Judgement of the Churches See the joynt consent of sundry godly and learned Ministers published by W. Rathbad p. 7. of Christ ought to be taken for the Judgement of God then those Societies which they own and acknowledge to be true Churches are so but the former is true therefore the latter of the first Proposition there can be no doubt The second Proposition is evident from Mathew 18. 17. 18. He that will not regard the Judgement of that particular Church whereof he is a Member is to be esteemed as a Heathen or Publican Of how much sorer censure shal he be thought worthy that despiseth the Judgement of all the known Churches in the world Again Christ hath given his Church power to judge and pronounce of a particular man that he is in the Estate of salvation and that infallibly therefore he hath made it much more able to pronounce of a Congregation or people that is a true Church which is a matter of no such difficulty as the other 1 Tim. 3. 15. the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth but this it could not be if it should be ignorant of a Truth so necessary as this viz. what people are to be accounted a true Church That these societies by you mentioned may bear Testimony to yours to be true may be undeniable but then the Que●●ion will Answ I. O. be whether these by you mentioned be true Churches rightly cō●ituted according to Gospel order that which is the very question betwixt us is by you taken for granted before it be proved and brought in by you as an Argument to prove it self the Question you are to prove is that the Parishes of that Nation be generally true Churches which I deny and so consequently all other that be of the same Matter and Form Now those Churches which you bring to prove yours to be true are of the same Matter and Form with you and if you be false then they also and if they should differ either in Matter of Form from you they could not possibly confesse you to be true Now to say you are true Churches because other societies who are one for matter of substance with you say so is as much as if you should say we are true Churches therfore we are true Churches That the Testimony of such a Church as is by you mentioned Mat. 18. 1 Tim. 3. is to be taken according to the intent of those Scriptures I grant but then you must first prove that those Churches by you mentioned are such not so confidently beg the question till that be first done these Scriptures will not support your Conclusion Wheras you desire me to name one true Church in the world that does not acknowledge the Churches of England to be the Spouse of Christ that I shall doe in

to confirm this are at large related 2. Though Popish Apostacy did afterward for many Ages overspread all the Churches in England yet they believe God still reserved a remnant for whose sakes he preserved the holy Scriptures amongst them and baptism in the name of the Trinity only and when God of his rich grace was pleased to stir up the Spirit of King Edward the sixth and Queene Elizabeth to cast off the Pope c. though at first some Sbires and sundry Parishes stood out against that Reformation for a time yet afterwards they generally received the Articles of Religion agreed upon Anno 1562. which are published and consented to by all the Ministers endowed with the silent consent also of the People and Subscription of the hands of the chief of them containing the Marrow and Summe of the Oracles of God which are the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Eloquia Dei concredited only to the Church We doe therefore acknowledge that where the People doe with common and mutuall consent gather into setled Congregations every Lords day as in England they do to hear and teach this Doctrin and doe profess their subjection thereunto and doe bind themselves and their Children as in Baptism they doe to continue therein that such Congregations are true Churches much more you may read in their Treatise of Church Covenant in their Answer to the eleventh Objection where they shew that if Christian Congregations in England were at the first combined by Covenant the Eternity of Gods Covenant is such that it is not the Interposition of many Corruptions that may arise in after-time that can disanull the same c. That Objection also that the Members of our Parishionall Assemblies were not brought in by their own voluntary profession but by the Authority and Proclamation of the Prince as also that Rome and the Assemblies of Papists may go for true Churches also you shall find there very fully answered The Name of Parish I perceive all along is stumbled at as Popish as are the names of Parsons Vicars and Curats which is the main if not the only Reason why some of you cast off both the English Churches and Ministers and yet the thing signified by the name is owned by Scripture and upon that account Mr. Hollingworth proves Parishes to be of Divine Right to whom I formerly referr'd you and reason it self evinceth it most expedient for the better performance of those duties which arise from Church-Membership that the Members should cohabit or dwell as neer together as conveniently they may It 's falsely charged upon as that we hold Parish Precincts give a man right or make him matter fit for a visible Congregation but the Question is of a Nation or City Christian whether the bounds of Parishes discreetly measured may not rationally be fixed as most expedient for Religious Meetings seeing all cannot meet in one place and if the Members of a Parish be visible Saints you will not say it is not lawfull to limit the Congregation unto such read the Review formerly cited and that our Congregations generally consist of such though not in your yet in a Scripture sense hath been in part and shall be more fully proved In your Answer to the first Branch I see nothing worth replying to 1. The World out of which this Nation when made Christian was called every mans Eyes but yours easily see 2. Many Members of the best Churches retain the lusts of the World in their hearts and 3 May be deadly Enemies one to another bite and devour one another yea and be Enemies to their faithfull Ministers for telling them the truth and yet the effects of Gospel gathering seen well enough To the second branch 1. You say we retain the Constitution which we had from Popery which is very false for we rejected Popery embraced Gods holy truths and joyned together in true worship and so were Matter and Form distant far enough from Popish Rulers you mean we retain the same Parish bounds which Papists left us to which sufficient hath been spoken 2. You deny the Command of the Magistrate assisting the publick Preaching of the Gospel to be a means appointed and approved of God for the gathering or recalling of a back-slided People That the Magistrates duty is to command yea and compell men that have forsaken their God and the true Faith to return again to God I proved by the approved examples of the good Kings undor the old Testament which you throw off very lightly as if old-Testament-Proofs were of no force whereas the Apostle expresly teacheth that the Gospel Churches are built upon the Prophets as well as the Apostles Ephes 2. 20. And that I may farther convince you of your Errour and Folly in slighting these Examples 1. You cannot but grant that what these good Kings did was by vertue of divine warrant Deut. 13. 5-11 17. 2. Exod. 22. 20. 2. It will thus appear that these Rules and Patterns are binding under the New Testament 1. Because we find no Repeal of these Precepts no Prohibition of these Practises 2. This Power is of Common and Naturall Equity and that which is answerable to the Morall Law binds under the Gospel 3 This Power was established and exercised upon Morall grounds and for Moral ends Deut 13. 5. 11. 4. We find this very thing prophesied of the times of the New Testament Es 49. 23. Zech. 13. 3. 5. The Apostle makes Rulers a terrour to evill works and Revengers to execute wrath upon Evil Doers without limitation or exception and you will not deny transgressions of the first Table to be evill works Moreover you cannot but remember that it is a Gospel-expression Compel them to come in Your first Argument from the Apostles gathering Churches without the Magistrates help there being no Christian Magistrate proves the Power of God who can make his Word alone Effectual but it proves not that had there been Christian Magistrates they ought not to have aided by their authority or that the Apostles would not have called for their assistance The consequence of your second Argument is absurd If I have Bread and Water to preserve my life must I not make use of these because I want those other means which God hath appointed and which when he sees good he will add to these to make my life more comfortable Your conclusion of this Answer is a triumph before the victory My following Argument which you say will melt like Snow before the Sun may make a floud which will sweep away your refuge of lyes James 3. 14 15. Those Assemblies wherein Christ dwells by the special presence Arg. 4. Dr. B. of his Grace are true visible Churches but Christ dwells in the Parochial Assemblies of England by the special presence of his Grace Ergo the Parochial Assemblies of England are true visible Churches The Major proved Rev. 1. 12 13 Psal 132 13 14. Exod. 25. 31. 1 Tim. 3. 15. 2 Cor. 6. 16. The

it as a Pillar c. Now Sir The Minor is evidently false the very naming of it is Confutation sufficient it being evident to behold that the Parishes of this Nation have always been and still are inclinable to whatsoever their Teachers and Rulers set up without ever questioning the truth of it except here and there a man which is nothing to our question it being of the Parishes generally Look upon them in the time of Popery and produce one Parish-Church much less all that opposed the power of the Pope but all inclinable to that wicked worship so in the time of Prelacy how conformable to that never once talking then of Presbytery and I believe as formerl● so now if the power of this Nation should enact that al should turn Independents they would obey without any general opposition and within this few years would as little think of Presbytery which you think to be truth now as they did then when he was Counted an Hereticke that believed not as the Church believed Which was then the scarlet-coloured whore of Rome and yet you let not to say they have been the Pillar of Truth defending it against all Errors which if true Presbytery is false in that the Parishes of this Nation have born Testimony to two contrary Religions Popery and Prelacy That Church that one time professeth Popery and another while Prelacy being variable according to the times in which she lives that Church is not the Pillar and ground of truth But the Parishes of this Nation have one while c. Ergo and for Revel 2. 13. When you have proved the Parishes of this Nation Pergamus I will Consider of it I know no advantage I should have gotten if the word Reply Dr. B. Church had been permitted to stand instead of Parishes but rather disadvantage because a National Church is as liable if not more to exception nor can I imagine how this could have hidden the folly of my Argument its folly to pick a quarrell the Church is nothing els but the Parishes or if you will that is the Mother these the daughters the Minor proposition which you deny will appear evident enough by considering the Apostles meaning of Pillar and Ground of Truth and applying it to our Assemblies both which I will do in few words The House or Church of God is so call'd in respect of the profession and maintenance of the true Religion of God which it both supporteth as a Pillar and maketh it openly known to others as Magistrates use to hang and affix their Edicts and Proclamations on pillars or other places of strength and firmness and here consequently is declared the Office and duty of the Church in holding and publishing the Truth and defending it against all Errors Contradictions and Corruptions and whatsoever Societies do this it s written upon those Societies with a Sun beam that they are the true Churches of Christ Now it s notoriously known that the Articles of Religion agreed upon Anno 1562. are published and consented to by all the See the answer of the Elders of the several Churches of New England to the ninth Question p. 26. and Church Covenant p. 40. Ministers endowed in every Congregation of this Nation with the silent consent also of the People and subscription of the hands of the chief of them wherein they do acknowledge no rule of Faith or Manners but the holy Scriptures no divine worship but to God only no Mediation nor Salvation but in Christ only no Conversion by Mans free will but by Gods free grace no Justification but by Faith no perfection nor merit of works with all other necessary and saving truths upon which the Church is grounded and built and which also it holdeth forth and maintaineth This alone abundantly evinceth that the Parishes of this Nation are the Pillar and ground of Truth Besides these truths are daily in most Congregations faithfully opened and applyed and whatsoever is contrary thereunto on the right hand or left convincingly confuted our Parishes therefore keeping Gods Records faithfully are his Registers and consequently his true Churches Your declaiming against the inclinableness of our People to alter with their Governors might have been spared well knowing it was the practice of the Church of Israel to do so and the Churches of Galatia how soon were they removed from him that called them into the Grace of Christ unto another Gospell to the admiration of the Apostle Galat. 1. 6. And therefore it needs be no marvell if our people so easily change from one Church-Goverment to another which they may do without prejudice to fundamental verity which though the Galathians overthrew yet they remained true Churches If you read the Epistle of Christ to Pergamus understandingly and compare our Church with that you will find that we are not worse and wherein any in that Church were praise-worthy for doing or suffering you may find some in ours not short of them From our practice agreeing with the practice of the Primitive Arg. 7. Dr. B. Apostolical Churches Those Societies that continue stedfast in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and in Prayer are true Churches Acts 2. 42. but so do ours Ergo. I deny your Minor and the reason why we separate from you is upon Answ J. O. that ground you have added neither Scripture nor Reason to prove your Minor but have left it destitute of all proof you could hardly have brought a Scripture in all the Bible which in every thing both in doctrine and practice makes so directly against you as this that you have brought for you For first your doctrine is contrary secondly so is your practice for doctrine first after that Peter had preacht the Lord Christ to these men it working upon their hearts ver 37. they cryed out What shall we do the doctrine of the Apostle to them ver 38. is Repent and be Baptized and so they were ver 41. they were the same day added to the Church but you both Ministers and People go directly contrary first Baptize them at three or four dayes old and so make them members of your Church and perhaps twenty or forty years after preach Repentance just contrary to the Apostles doctrine and Gods examples 1 King 6. 7. Ephes 2. 21 22. 1 Pet. 2. 5. First you take into your house unhued stones and unsquared timber and twenty or forty years after fall to squaring them for the building Now for your practice in your fellowship the powerfull operation of the Gospell of Jesus Christ after it had workt them from the world and from themselves and one into another in the unity of the Spirit as one man it is said ver 44 45. and all that believed were together had all things common and sold their possessions c. And chap. 4. 32 34 35. and the multitude of believers were of one heart and one soul neither said any of them that ought that he possessed was

his own c. But your fellowship is directly contrary one sortfed with all delicious fare cloathed with gorgeous Apparell and pride abominable and the other sort one company working and toyling more than they be well able and glad if they may be set on work and all to get a few cloathes and food and yet cannot get enough to satisfie they being tormented by the oppression of the rich that as the Lord saith their faces are ground and their burdens are almost insupportable the other sort begging from door to door which is miserable to see in that Nation where many vainely spend so much in one hour as would relieve many a poor creature ready to perish with cold and famisht with hunger all which is evident by lamentable experience and yet you have the boldness to compare your Parishes with those in Acts 2. betwixt which there is as much difference as betwixt light and darkness Those that continue not in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship c. are no true Churches but the Parishes of this Nation continue ●ot c. Ergo they are not true Churches the Major is your own by the rule of contraries the Minor is Evident by that which hath been said You render us a reason of your separation from us which whether it will hold when God shall ask you Who hath required this Reply Dr. B. at your hands you have just reason to question groundless separation and Church-division being as great a sin as Adultery or Theft Our Blessed Saviour and his Disciples separated not from Assemblies whose teachers and members were worse than ours read Matth. 23. nor can you find any command or example in all the Scripture for separating from Societies that hold all fundamental Truths and join together in Gods true worship as ours do The doctrine and practice of the Apostles in Baptizing Jews or Heathens brought within the Pale of the Church professing their Faith and Repentance and desiring to be sealed with this Sacrament for the strengthening of their Souls in this Faith as these here did is the doctrine of our Churches our doctrine and practice of Baptizing Infants of Believers is so far from being directly Contrary to the doctrine of the Apostles there being neither here nor any where els any word of theirs forbidding to baptize Infants as that there is very cleer warrant in this very place to Baptize such Infants For the Apostle makes it his Argument to them to be willing to receive Baptism because the promise is made to them and their Children and to as many as the Lord our God shall call and to their Children this must needs be understood or els the promise to Believing Gentiles is not of the same Latitude as it is to Believing Jews I presume you will acknowledge that the Covenant of Grace is as fair and full to these Now if the Promise be made to Believers and their Children the Command must reach not only to them but to their Children also running thus be Baptized you and your Children for the promise is made to you and your Children if otherwise this that w●s intended to be an effectual motive would have been an effectual disswasive and deterred Parents from accepting Baptism and renouncing Circumcision to which initial sign their Infant-Children till now had right having privilege of Church Membership as well as Parents which by this acceptance they must lose and be cast into a condition like that of Infidels Which losse to the Church by Christs coming seemes to be no less than of denial of his coming in the flesh Moreover the Apostles practice in Baptizing whole families a part whereof and the greatest part for the most part Children are immediatly upon the parents believing is a warrantable pattern for the practice of our Churches Your objection that there is no express mention of Infants Baptized in those families notwithstanding your selves will take liberty to believe that many were Baptized of whose Baptism there is no mention made in Scripture the twelve Apostles for instance nor is it said there were wives or servants in those families You do not well to call all Infants unhued and unsquared Timber have you never read what the Scripture saith of Infant-Children born within the bosome of the Church Esay 65. 20. The Child shall by an hundred years old that is he shall be as well instructed by Gods inward teaching according to that promise Esae 53. 14. As if he had lived under the Churches teaching an hundred years And if some Children be timber hued and squared for the Kingdom of Glory Mark 10 14 why should it be thought a thing incredible with you that they be squareable for the Kingdom of Grace Moreover that place in 1 Cor. 10. 1 2. If duely considered more than probably proves that it was an Apostolical practice to Baptize Infants born within the Church if not it will be difficult to make the Apostles Comparison of the two Churches and their Sacraments and subjects thereof to run parallell Your pleading for Anabaptistical Community I think not worth replying to as neither your declaming against the hardheartedness of some of our rich members you will find as bad or worse among the members of the Churches Apostolical read 1 Cor. 11. 21 22. and Jam. 2. and 5. We are not therefore overbold to compare our doctrine and fellowship with the Primitive degrees of Purity in doctrine and practice we easily yield them above us But the same Truth we hold fast and will not let it go we teach no other doctrine have fellowship in no other worship Ergo we are true Churches Those Christian Societies that have the true Ministry of Christ Arg. 8. Dr. B. set over them for their Pastors and Spiritual Rulers are true Churches Ephes 4. 11 12. But so have the Parishes of England Ergo. That the Ministers of England are true Ministers appeares by their ordination which was by laying on of the hands of the Presbytery Secondly by their abilities both 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 Tim. 2. 15. Galat. 2. 14. Thirdly by Gods blessing on their endeavours and labours 2 Cor. 3. 1. I deny the Minor in the proof whereof you forget your self you should Answ I. O. say thus that the Parishes of this Nation have a true Ministry of Christ set over them and then the question is Who set them you say it appeares first by their Ordination c. I answer your Ordination is false and that upon a double account and seeing you either will not or cannot prove it true but onely barely affirm without proof I will give you the grounds of my deniall First the Presbytery by which you were ordained which is the Bishops now it is undeniable they had their Ordination from the Pope and I am sure he had his from the Devill Now the Devill ordaining the Pope the Pope the Bishops the Bishops you how can you be true Ministers by

all Ordained by the good ones as you were not the case is not a whit the better seeing they Ordained not by goodness but by Office which was alike in them all Secondly you say if they were Antichristian it makes not your calling null and the reason that you gave as I remember was that some things may be wanting in the worship of God and yet not all null as you instanced I answer You hold Ordination Essential to preaching so as a man may not preach without it now the Office of the Bishop being false and they in that office Antichristian having never received call to that Office from Christ or his Church but originally from the Devill how these can by that Office make a true Minister of Christ conferring that power to another that they were never possest of themselves is a mystery This is not only a want of some but all things whereby the work should be lawfully performed Evident you say it is that your Administrators are set apart c. And that such only may Baptize Mat. 28. 18 19. to that I answer That an Ordination you have it 's true but it 's performed by such as have no authority from Christ for what they doe Neither yet doe they do it according to Christs Order as I have already proved in answer to the 5. Argument whereunto I refer the Reader being unwilling needlesly to multiply words and how you shall be able to justifie your Call manner of Entrance c. against those exceptions when I see it published for before I must not by our agreement I shall in Convenient time give the world and you an account of the strength or weakness thereof and that such may Baptize whom Christ Authorizes in Matth. 28. I grant but that Christ Authorizes only Ministers in office by Ordination if you was such as you are not I utterly deny for that text holds forth the plain contrary as presently shall be shewed Now for your Call where you make so many intricat turnings and needless tautologies many of your Quaeres being for substance one I shall first shew by what means and how we had our Call to the performance of this Ordinance and then shall answer what of yours that makes against and what is in yours not contradictory to the thing in hand when rightly shewed shall be left as not materiall thus The mystery of iniquity from the Apostles time beginning to 2 Thess 2. 7. work and after their death more and more to creep into the Church and so far prevailed by degrees through the subtilty of the Devill that the pure Lawes of Jesus came to be eaten out and the inventions of man came in their room so far prevailing till the Lord Christs Prophetical Regal and Priestly offices were justled out and cunningly undermined till at last the man of sin did get into the Temple of God shewing himself that he was God Verse 4. revenging the contempt of his wickedness and making spoil of the precious Saints of Jesus that testified against his Abomination till they were drunk with the blood of the Saints that ceased not to cry How long Lord holy and true c. then were the Inhabitants of Rev. 6. 10. the earth made drunck with the wine of her fornication and all the world wondered after this Beast in so much that she began to Chap. 17. 2. say in her heart I sit a Queen and I am no Widow c. thus being at her pitch of glory darkness ye thick darkness and a dismal Chap. 18. 17. gloomy night was spred over the world for the neglect of keeping close to the Word of Truth the Lord suffered an Eclipse by the interposition of mans inventions betwixt his truth and their sight to darken the world till his pleasures was to appear and then like the appearing of the day darkness and the clouds of Ignorance began to dissipate and he by the brightness of his coming did reveal by degrees the mysterie of iniquity and sweetly Vers 2. 8. enlighten his servants in the knowledge of his Truth by that infallible Word the Scriptures of Truth helping them by his Spirit to a right understanding thereof and by degrees giving forth the knowledge of his will each age receiving more than other as Waldenses Wickliff Hus Luther c. still more and more increasing till it was by some seen not immediatly hence here is an answer to your first demand neither yet mediatly by the help of men hence an answer to the second by means of the Scripture the Spirit of the Lord helping to a right understanding thereof that they had been cheated of that blessed though much despised Ordinance of Baptism and a contrary intruded in its room that was right neither in the Subject Manner nor End and these people seeing it their duty to practize it and knowing of it to be the will of Christ that it should be performed Resolved upon the work to reassume this Ordinance Now the Call to the knowledge of it was thus The Spirit of the Lord inlighting by means of the Scripture to the understanding of his Will They Call to the practice of it thus A company of believes assembled in the Name of Christ willing to follow him in the way of his Ordinances revealed in his Word and yet seeing their want of a personall succession and yet knowing it their duty and the will of Christ it should be performed did appoint one that was unbaptized to reassume and set again on foot this Ordinance of Christ And if any one question the lawfulness of this further than I shall have occasion to vindicate it from such exceptions as here make against it I refer him to a Treatise intituled A way to Zion sought out where all that are willing to see may First from abominable damnable absurdities that will follow if the Saints in light though they want a personal succession of this Ordinance seeing themselves deprived of this or any other Ordinance may not take it up without a Lineal succession Secondly from Scripture plainly proved where all that will not wilfully shut their eyes may see Now what of yours seemingly makes against this is first If you should say you had your Call from a Church ungathered you would proclaim your Calling Antichristian from your own principles and your selves Schismaticks by separating from a true Ministery Answer Let the reasons wherefore we judge you false Ministers in relation to the external Call which we are now only speaking of be briefly laid down and also the grounds of our reassuming this Ordinance and then let the Judicious judge whether upon the Judgement that is given of the first the like may be given upon the latter upon the same Principles We judge you false First because the very Original of your Call came from the Devill he sending the Pope the Pope the Bishops the Bishops you and seeing you still retain and stand Ministers by