they are of the same mind and party M. Are you a Lawyer and do you accuse men in the Temple without naming them and bringing proof of their guilt Noxa caput sequitur should all the Clergy be called guilty if Sibthorp or Manwaring or Heylin were proved so what error you accuse them of prove and punish them for no other 6. But I prove that the Bishops themselves made other Ordination necessary Because they would Ordain none without sinful subscriptions and conditions which must not be yielded to If you can prove the terms lawful on which they Ordain I shall trie your skil anon II. I farther prove the Ordination in question valid thus Where there is a true notification of God's will that this person shall be a Minister of the Gospel there is no want of validity in his Ordination But those here ordained by Presbyters might have such a true notification of God's will Ergo The major is plain Because God's will and Man's consent are the fundamentum of the Relation therefore nothing can be wanting to it 's being and validity The Minor is proved Those men that have laudable ability and willingness and the consent of a people in true necessity and the approbation of a National Assembly of Learned Divines of which many Bishops were called to be members and the investing Ordination of the gravest Senior Pastors that were then to be had had a true notification of God's will that they should be his Ministers But such were these in question Ergo. III. The way of ordination which was valid in the Primitive Church is now valid But such is that in question Ergo. As to the Minor The Ordination of such Pastors as were but the Rectors of single Congregations was it that was valid in the Primitive Church But such is that in question Doctor Hammond labours to prove that in Scripture time there were no other Bishops or Presbyters but the single Pastors of single Assemblies Mr. Clerkson hath fully proved and I more fully in my Treatise of Episcopacy that for a hundred and fifty years if not much more there were no particular Churches bigger than our Parishes A Bishop then was but the chief Parish or Congregational Pastor who guided it with his Assistance And such are all our Incumbents especially in great Towns who have Chapels and Curates and Lecturers to assist them And Grotius de Imper. sum Pot. sheweth that really the chief Pastor of a Church is a Bishop whatever they call him But I have so largely proved in my Treatise of Episcopacy pag. 231 232 c. that our questioned Ordainers were scripture Bishops and that those now called Presbyters Ordained long after that I must not repeat the same things here again IV. Those that are in Orders may confer Orders Ordinis est Ordinare as Vsher was wont to say As Physicians make Physicians and Philosophers make Philosophers and Geneâ—ation propagateth the Species And our Church consenteth to this 1. In that Presbyters must concur in Ordination by Imposition of hands which is an act of authority and collation 2. In that the Convocation hath a greater power even Canon making and that Convocation consisteth half and more of Presbyters and the Canons Excommunicateth all that deny it to be the represensative Church of England But Presbyters have the power of Order as Bishop Carlton de Iurisdict proveth it commonly acknowledged equal with Bishops pag. 7. And the Church of England in King Aelfrik's time ad Wolf. in Spelman pag. 576. l. 17. Affirm that Bishops and Presbyters are but one Order V. Those may ordain validly whose Ordination is more warrantable than that of Roman Bishops for our Bishops own theirs as valid and ordain them not again when they turn Protestants But the Presbyters that Ordained here fourteen years did it more warrantably than the Roman Bishops Ergo 1. The Papists Ordain men to a false Office to be Mass-Priests But the said Pastors ordained none but to the same office that Christ instituted 2. The Papists have their power of Ordination from the Pope whose own power and office in Specie is a false Usurpation But it is not so here where the ordaining Pastors were lawfully called 3. Papists Ordination enters them into a false Church in Specie a pretended catholick Church headed by the Pope but our Pastors entered them into no Church but Christs 4. Papists make them take sinful Oaths and Conditions before they Ordain them But these Pastors at least that imposed not the Covenant did not If yet any will nullifie the Reformed Churches and Ministry and their Ordination and not the Papists we may understand what their Mind and Communion is VI. That Ordination is valid which is less culpable than many Diocesans But such is that in question Ergo To the proof of the Minor which only needs proof here 1. Some Diocesans here have been Papists as Godfrey Goodman of Gloucester and divers have pleaded for and owned a Forreign Iurisdiction which the Oath of Supremacy abjureth 2. I have fully proved in the said Treatise of Episcopacy that the Office of Pastors of single Churches is more warrantable than our Diocesans who are the sole Bishops of many score or hundred Churches 3. The said Presbyters at least who medled not with the Covenant imposed no unlawful condition on the Ordained as too many Bishops have done 4. Many Bishops plead the derivation of their power from Rome And what theirs is I shewed before But because I must not write a Treatise on this one question you may read it done copiously and unanswerably by Voetius against Comel Iansenius de desperata Causa Papatus Yet I add one difference more The Ordainers and Ordained in question had the consent of the Flocks and neighbour Ministers but the said Bishops come in by the Magistrate without the consent or knowledge of the Flocks and so do the Ministers usually whom they Ordain And what the ancient Church thought of this abundance of Canons shew I 'le now cite but one Concil Nic. 2. Can. 3. Omnem Electionem quae fit a Magistratibus Episcopi Presbyteri vel Diaconi irritam manere ex canone dicente siquis Episcopus secularibus Magistratibus usus per eos Ecclesiam obtinuerit deponatur segregetur omnes qui cum eo Communicant Oportet enim eum qui est promovendus ad Episcopatum ab Episcopis eligi quemadmodum a sanctis patribus Nicaenis decretum est in Can. qui dicit Episcopum oportet maxime quidem ab omnibus qui sunt in provincia constitui And many Councils nullifie their Episcopacy that come not in by the election or consent of Clergy and People which ad hominem is somewhat to them that urge such Councils against us L. I confess your reasons seem unanswerable at least as to the case of necessity which I am convinced was the case of those that were ordained when there were no Bishops to whom they could have access or no
forward to meddle with more publick Church matters without our Superiors invitation or consent but we may say that it is our judgment that these additions following would greatly strengthen the Interest of Religion Church and Concord I. That the Parish Churches be acknowledged True Churches and their Ministers such Overseers as are necessary to Essentiate True Churches that is That all Presbyters be Episcopi Gregis Overseers of the Flock and the Incumbent the President among his Curate Presbyters where there be such And that the Diocesan is not the sole Essentiating Church Pastors and the Diocesan Church the lowest particular Church and the Parish Assemblies but his Chapels or Parts of the lowest Church and the Parish Ministers his Curates and no true Pastors II. That no Lay-Elder Chancellour or Civilian have or use the Decretive Power of Excommunication or Absolution called the Keys III. That New and more Peaceable Canons be made instead of that Book which now obtaineth according to the Scripture Canons Or that there be no Canons but Scripture besides Statute Laws IV. That Bishops have no Forcing Power nor the Writ de Excommunicato Capiendo or any Force by the Sword be Annexed to Excommunication as such but that the Magistrates hear and judge before they punish and Obedience to Bishops be unconstrained and voluntary V. That Bishops judge Church-Causes in Session with their Presbyters and not alone nor with some few of their own Choice or with Lay-men but in regular Synods and Ordain there by their consent and after sufficient trial of them that seek Ordination And so of Institution VI. That Diocesses be not greater than the Diocesan is able to Oversee and that he forbid not the Parish Pastors their particular works but only use his general overcight and power on Appeals VII That Bishops oft visit the inferior Pastors and Churches and instruct the Juniors by direction and Example how to Preach and guide the Flock and rebuke the Erroneous Scandalous Unpeaceable and Negligent VIII That the Bishops be Chosen by the Diocesan Synod and Consented to freely without force by their City flocks where they reside and Invested by the King who hath the power of Temporal Privileges IX That the City and neighbour Pastors be the Cathedral Dean and Prebends at least where City Churches want maintenance or that they ambulatorily Preach abroad where there is most need X. If Arch-Bishop Usher's Form or Reduction of Government to the Primitive state or else King Charles the Second his Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs be but setled by Law it will be a Healing and Great Reformation inferior Synods not hurtfully fettered being allowed under the Diocesan Synods And whether the Diocesans be Called Bishops or Arch-Bishops as Successors to the Apostles and Evangelists in the ordinary parts of their Office a general care of many Churches the name is to be left to each mans free judgment As to the ignorant clamors for a real or seeming Re-ordination 1. I have said so much against it in my Treatise of Episcopacy and my Disputation of Ordination in my Dispute of Church-Government and my Christian Concord that while the objectors by contempt refuse to read and answer them it will be no cure of their pride and partiality to repeat the same again But I say that I have fully proved unanswered that they that were Ordained by Synods of Incumbent Pastors and specially those also then approved by the Westminster Assembly had a better Ordination and that by true Bishops than either Papists or meer English Diocesans that are not Arch-bishops can give And yet they Re-ordain not Papists 1. Either they take the Parish-Churches that is the Pastor and Communicants distinct from the meer Auditors and Catechumens and from the Aliens to be true proper Churches in political Sense or not If yea Then those Churches have Bishops For Ecclesia est plebs Episcopo adunata ubi Episcopus ibi Ecclesia Their own Principle is That it is no proper political Church without a Bishop There are three degrees of Bishops 1. All Presbyters are Episcopi Gregis by the consent of Papists and Protestants 2. The chief Incumbents that have Curates or may have are Episcopi Praesides The Ordination without Diocesans was by these two sorts of Bishops 3. True Diocesans are Arch-bishops Episcopi generales plurium Ecclesiarum We refuse not their Ordination but Men have true Episcopal Ordination without it But if they say that the Diocesan is the lowest Bishop of a particular Church and that the Parish-Incumbent Rectors are no true Bishops and their Assemblies no true political Churches formed of Bishops but only parts of one Diocesan Church infimi Ordinis we abhor such Tyrannical Schismatical Diocesans and their pretence of proper power to Ordain and the Primitive Church had never any such Ordaniers or Bishops And I advise all Ministers neither to be Re-ordained by such nor to yield to the appearance of such an evil by coming under their equivocating imposition of hands lest they take God's Name in vain and harden Papists and Church-Tyrants in their false condemnation of the Reformed Churches If it be want of a legal right in England that they pretend let the Magistrate give you a Licence or Legal right I write not this for my own interest for I was Ordained by a Diocesan and am past all hopes or fears of Man. CHAP. LX. The Reasons of these ten Articles L. YOV must give me leave to tell you what objections are like to be raised against your proposed Articles of Reconciliation And first your own party will be unsatisfied in them and so they will do no good because here is not a word against Arch-bishops Bishops Deans Arch-deacons and the rest that bear office in their Courts which yet is the thing that you your self seem most to dissent from and which the Covenant did renounce M. 1. We have so much swearing and unswearing and forswearing that I will meddle as little as I can in things that look like Perjury You know that as the last Generation was sworn against Prelacy this new Generation is sworn to it Yea in a manner the whole Land is sworn or covenanted never to endeavour any alteration of it And how much soever I am against that Oath yet I will meddle as little as I can in urging men to that which they take for Perjury And I have elsewhere told you that the Covenant renounced not all Episcopacy many of the Assembly of Divines declared their dissent from any such renunciation and had entred their protestation against it as Dr. Cornel. Burges told me had not the Explication been added which confineth the Renunciation to the English frame And that the present Non-Conformists would have thankfully received the Primitive Episcopacy they shewed by their motion 1660. 2. We offer this form on supposition that we may not have what we think best but what we can joyfully submit to for our Concord and the Churches safety 3. I have
that the Form and Manner of Making and Consecrating Bishops Priests or Deacons containeth any thing in it that is repugnant to the word of God. Though it assert that the Bishops and Priests are distinct Orders which even in K. Aelfrick's days the Church of England denyed XXV We must publish them Excommunicate who affirm that the Nonconformists may truly take the name of another Church c. and that any assemblies of Subjects not allowed by Law are true and Lawful Churches XXVI No Minister must wittingly administer the Sacrament to any but such as Kneel nor to any of the foresaid depravers of the Liturgy Ceremonies Orders of the Church c. Can. 27. XXVII None of other Parishes are often to be admitted to Communion XXVIII All Ministers that repent of Conforming must be suspended excommunicate and deposed at last Can. 38. XXIX We must give the Sacrament to none that go for it from unpreaching Ministers but must send them home Can. 57. Nor must Baptize their Children XXX Ministers must not be suffered that wear not the Surplice Can. 58. XXXI No Minister must refuse or delay to Christen any Child that 's brought to the Church to him on Sundays or Holydays to be Christened without exception of Atheists or Infidels Children Can. 68. XXXII No Minister may keep any Fast in publick or at private Houses or be present at any on what necessity soever without the Bishops License for it under Hand and Seal or the Laws appointment XXXIII We must if commanded publish all Excommunicate that affirm that the Sacred Synod is not the true Church of England by representation or that deprave it as a faction c. XXXIV No man was to be ordained or suffered in the Ministry for twenty years that did not subscribe thus I do declare that I do hold that there lies no obligation on me or on any other person from the Oath commonly called the Solemn League and Covenant to endeavour any change or alteration of Government in Church or State. XXXV All Nonconformists must swear that they will never endeavour any alteration of the Church Government or else be banished five miles from Corporations and all places where ever they preached since the Act of Oblivion XXXVI All Ministers must subscribe and Nonconformists swear that they abhor the Trayterous position of taking Arms by the Kings Authority against those that are Commissioned by him XXXVII We must assent and consent to the damnatory sentence in the Creed called Athanasius's XXXVIII Every Minister consenteth to say the Morning and Evening Service every day in the year not being lett by sickness or other urgent cause XXXIX Ministers must concur to force the unwilling Parishioners to the Sacrament or else to Excommunicate and ruine them XL. If we dare not Conform for fear of sin we must forsake our Ministry to which we are Ordained and Vowed and give over Preaching the Gospel what ever need there be and must also remove our dwelling from all places aforesaid These are the parts of Ministers Conformity Lay Mens Conformity is as followeth I. They must trust their Souls with the Pastoral oversight of those and only those as their fixed Pastors whom Patrons will choose for them and Bishops institute Though the Conformists accuse many Patrons of such hainous sins as speaketh them unfit for so strange a trust besides those that are Papists and Bishops say they have not power to keep out the unfit II. They are not only hereby deprived of the exercise of Self-Government for the saving of their own Souls but of due Family Government for the safety of Wife and Children and Servants and must not bid them choose better Pastors III. They are forced to forbear Communion with all Nonconformists and to separate from all others besides Conformists though they account this Schismatical separation IV. When God commandeth them If thy Brother trespass against thee tell him his fault between thee and him if he hear not tell the Church c. And with Drunkards Railers Fornicators c. not to eat They are forced to have Communion with Parishes where no such Discipline is exercised nor can they perform any such duty and to lose all the benefit of this Christian Order and Discipline none being so much cast out as Conscionable Dissenters V. Conscionable care to obey Gods Law is greatly discouraged and made a dangerous thing while it must be mens utter ruine to deny Conformity even in a Ceremony to men when it 's done for fear of sinning against God. VI. They are to be deprived of Baptism and Christendom for their Children if they dare not use the foresaid way of God-Fathers as described VII They are also to be unchristened if thinking our Crossing is used as an unlawful Humane Sacrament they dare not receive it as a dedicating Badge of Christianity VIII If they think Kneeling at receiving the Sacrament an unlawful hardening the Papists they are denyed Communion IX If any dissent but from Confirmation Organs Kneeling at the Rails taking a Reader or unfit man for their Pastor they must not be received to Communion by a Conformist in another Parish X. All the Land is engaged Ministers Vestries Corporations and Militia by Oaths or Covenant never to endeavour any alteration of Government in the Church XI They are all engaged to abhor the position as trayterous of taking Armes by the Kings Authority against any Commissioned by him in pursuit of such Commission XII All Corporation Government and Trust is confined to them that declare that there is no obligation on them or any other from the solemn Covenant or Vow not excepting so much as to oppose Schism Popery or Prophaneness to defend the King or repent of sin though these be Vowed I have now told you what Conformity is in Ministers and People CHAP. V. I. Of Re-Ordination L. YOV have named a great number But I doubt whether all these are imposed and in many of them I see no harm M. I told you that if any one of them imposed be sinful Nonconformity is a duty which all the Ministers in England were bound to L. What sin can you find in Re-Ordination M. I must first state the Controversie before I argue it 1. The word Ordination may signifie either the first Dedication and Ordination to the Ministerial Office as such by which a man is separated from the Laity to Gods Ministry Or else a Mission on some particular Ministerial work as Paul and Barnabas were sent abroad Acts 11. Or a Minister may be sent to America c. Or else a fixed appointment to some one particular Church or Flock which is done here by Presentation Institution and Induction It is neither of the two last that we speak against They may be often done But it s only the first 2. The word Ordination may signifie 1. That Moral action by which a man is made a Minister of Christ which is his solemn Contract with Christ exprest by his Consent and by
Ministry on such terms V. They never accused the use of Holy dayes as dayes of Thanksgiving to God for giving such Holy Apostles to the Church and whose memory we honourable commemorate VI. They never accused our Kneeling at the Lords Supper as unlawful but only the casting Godly persons from Communion for not using it when they take it to be sin About the Kneeling the old Nonconformists were not of one mind some thought that every objectum motivum of Adoration was forbidden that was a Creature But others said that every Creature in the World may be such an object Our Meat is objectum motivum when we pray for a Blessing on it If I see the Relicts or Picture of a Friend that I wronged while he was alive I may well be moved by it to beg pardon of God. All his works must move me to adore and praise him But we may not make any Image objectum terminativum or ad quod to which we direct our Divine Worship as a Medium of our sending it to God. The only great difficulty about this is from the argument of scandalous hardening the Papists that live among us Though indeed our Doctrine avoideth that scandal VII They never accused the Ceremony of laying the hand on the Book and kissing it in taking an Oath VIII They never spake against the Ring in Marriage IX They meddled not with the Surplice Tippet Hood Rochet Cope but only the casting men out of the Ministry that dare not use them thinking them unlawful Though we justifie them not X. They accused not all significant use of the Cross but only that in Baptism it seemed to have all or most of the nature of a Humane Sacrament of the Covenant of Grace as it is expounded in the Liturgy and Canon XI They spake not against Episcopacy as it is a presidency among and over Presbyters differing in Degree and not in Office called ORDER and that in a Church of the lowest Species XII They opposed not Arch-Bishops as over many such Churches and Bishops nor Diocesans as Arch-Bishops ruling but by Gods Word XIII They said nothing against Metropolitans Patriarchs Lay-Chancellors Commissaries Officials Surrogates Archdeacons c. as Officers of the King appointed to do nothing besides the Sacred Ministry if they be Clergy-men but what belongs to Magistracy XIV They said nothing against any promise of Obedience to them only in the capacities and in the exercise of the power forementioned XV. Much less did they ever oppose or question Swearing to the King according to the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy And I with divers others also being for some ends entered as his Chaplains in Ordinary took also that Oath of Fidelity which the Kings Houshold Servants take XVI We never were for any dishonouring of Kings by publick Excommunications much les by Subjects or Forreigners whom Kings never choose to be their Pastors but only in case of necessity for such a denyal of Sacramental Communion to them as Bishop Andrews in Fortura Torâ— and Bishop Bilson plead for which is but to forbear our selves a sinful act XVII We never pleaded for any Elders or Chancellors power of the Keys who are but Lay-men XVIII We never held that Magistrates are bound to add their force by the Sword to the censures of the Church as such and to punish men more because the Church hath by Excommunication cast them out or because they are not reconciled XIX We never thought that things indifferent do become unlawful to us because the Magistrate commandeth them XX. We never held that the Scripture is a particular Rule commanding every accident and circumstance about Gods Worship but only a general Rule requiring all to be done in Love and Peace and to edification and decently c. in those circumstances which must be some way determined and God hath left to variable Humane determination Such as are Time Place Utensils Translations Sections Metres Tunes Methods and Words in Preaching and Prayer Habit Gesture and many such XXI We never held it unlawful to do one of these actions though it were by mistake unlawfully commanded e. g. If the Rulers prescribe a Time Place Metre Tune c. unfit if it be not so bad as to overthrow the ends and use of the Worship the fault of the Commander will not disoblige us from the duty of obeying And whereas some argue that no man hath authority to sin ergo we are not bound to obey that which is no act of authority I answer Rulers have authority to command that which is good though not in a faulty manner and when we cannot do the good without the faulty manner it is their fault and not ours e. g. If an inconvenient Time Place Text Tune c. be chosen the Union and Concord which is held by agreeing in those Modes is necessary He that will not joyn in them cannot joyn in the Worship So that we obey the Ruler or Guide as a determiner of the means of Concord which is necessary and not sub ratione erroris as misdetermining though in that which is misdetermined If a Master bid his Servant go at an unseasonable time about his work it 's his duty to go at that time We never pray without some fault in the manner and yet must rather do it so than not at all The mistaken Ruler bids us not sin It 's his sin to choose a mis-circumstance and it is not his own action that he bids us do but ours And it s to us a lawful circumstance because necessary to Concord and commanded though mistakingly XXII We never held it unlawful to joyn with a Church or Minister that hath some faults both Personal and in their acts of Worship as if all that joyned were guilty of all the faults there committed No not though we knew before hand that some false Doctrine would be uttered or fault committed Else we must separate from all the world and all from us XXIII We never thought it a duty to separate from every Church that culpably neglecteth Discipline and hath open wicked men therein If we be not guilty of it and cannot lawfully live in the Communion of a more obedient reformed Church XXIV We never judged needless affected singularity a duty but judge it best in lawful things for Concord sake to Conform to the custom of the Churches where we live or come XXV Though we think not that men may command us to destroy our Neighbours Souls by scandal yet when disobedience to a Rulers Law is like to do more hurt than the scandal taken at it comes to we are for avoiding the greater hurt XXVI We never separated from any tolerable Parish Ministers or Churches as if they were no true Ministers or Churches nor perswaded any so to do nor to take the Communion of such Churches for unlawful to us either occasionally or constantly when we can have no better without more hurt than benefit to our selves and others XXVII We hold
the Ordainers investing action This is it which we mean in the Controversie which may not be done twice 2. Or it may signifie the meer words of the Ordainers and Ordained which make up the said Moral action We deny not but the same words repeated may make up one Moral Ordination If the Bishop by tautology repeat them twice or thrice Or if they should to satisfie men of divers Languages that are present be first spoken in English and after in French or when some that doubted require it should go over them again all this is but one Ordination L. How prove you that our Bishops intend any more when they say it is only to satisfie the Law that you may be capable in England M. 1. That it is not a meer relation to some particular cure that they mean is undenyable 1. Because they call that by the name of Institution and Induction and not of Ordination 2. Because they never ordain any over and over upon removals 3. Because the words of Ordination in the Book tell it us 2. That they do it not as a Repetition of the same valid Ordination is past doubt 1. Because the same repeated by the same men will not serve 2. It is to be done again ten or twenty years after the first 3. He is to be fined in an hundred pound that administreth the Sacrament without it 4. He is taken for no true Minister without it which cannot be true of a bare repetition of words No reasonable men would lay so much on that 3. It is undeniable that they take men for unordained and no Ministers till they ordain them 1. Because they all disown reordaining they know that the Canons called the Apostles and the whole antient and later Church condemn it as like Anabaptistry and no one Bishop in England will not renounce it Therefore its certain that they take the first Ordination for null 2. And they have so declared their judgment in many words and writings and in the Act of Uniformity it is plainly intimated in the penalty L. And what harm is there in being twice Ordained M. 1. Ad hominem I need not dispute it All the Bishops disclaim it as unlawfull so that we have their confession 2. It is the same fault as Anabaptistry If they be blameless why make you such a noise against the Anabaptists To be twice made a Christian and twice made a Minister is of the like kind 3. It is something causelesly to cast our selves under the Censure of all the Church that hath been against it and to be condemned by them 4. It is a plain prophanation of God's holy name and of a great and holy Ordinance by Lying and taking Godâ—s name in vain For they are said to be now admitted to the Office and this day to receive it and God is told that they are now called to it And all their Examinations and Answers imply that they were no Ministers before and the Bishop saith Receive the Holy Ghost for the Office and work of a Priest now committed to thee by the Imposition of our hands which all imply it not done before And in so sacred a contract with God to lie to him and prophanely abuse his name and the holy Ghosts and the Duty of Prayer and Praise is tremendous Be not deceived God is not mocked 5. It is a confederacy with Corrupters and Usurpers that arrogate and appropriate valid Ordination to themselves and a confirming all their injury to posterity that all that shall hereafter imitate them may be encouraged by alledging our Re ordination 6. It is a hainous injury to all the other Reformed Churches as if we degraded their Ministers and separated from them all as no Churches For one part of them have no Diocesans and the rest have Bishops that at the Reformation were Ordained by Presbyters 7. It is contrary to one of the Articles of our Religion 23. These we ought to judge them lawfully called and sent which be chosen and called to this work by men who have publick authority given to them in the Congregation to call and send Ministers c. But in other Countries Presbyters have publick authority given them And Art. 36. The book of Consecration doth contain all things necessary to such consecration and Ordaining But it hath nothing for Re-ordaining those before Ordained 8. It is a plain condemnation of the Church of England which hath professed Communion with the Reformed abroad as with true Ministers and Churches of Christ. And we are now told that to communicate with Schismaticks induceth the guilt of Schism 9. It introduceth Anabaptistry or utter confusion into the Nation leaving men in doubt whether for fourteen years the people had any true Baptism while it's a controversie whether Lay-mens Baptizing be valid and Mr. Dodwell maketh all men to be out of any Covenant-title to Salvation that have not the Sacraments from a Minister that hath successive Episcopal Ordination And all Christians must question whether they have not so long here lived out of the Church of Christ without Ministery and Communion Do you think that none of these nine Reasons prove Re-ordination sinful L. But because the Bishops deny it let me hear your proof that the former Ordination here by Presbyters is not a nullity M. I. Ad hominem the Church of England hath as I said judged the like valid in the Reformed Churches by holding Communion with them I cited a great number of Bishops and Doctors in my Christian Concord L. But they say that necessity differeth their case from ours here And even Doctour Sherlock tells you that if God make necessity necessity will make Ministers But ours Schismatically pull'd down the Bishops and now disown the very Order M. There is a satisfactory concession in these words but the accusations are made up of falsehood and deceit 1. Archbishop Vsher and others that thought the Ejectors of Episcopacy were guilty of Schism yet maintained that their Ordination was valid He told me how he pleaded it to the King. 2. Do they think that Salmasius Blundel and all others that have written more against our Prelacy than the English were deprived of it against their wills by necessity 3. What necessity can they pretend to the Hollanders Helvetians Geneva Embden Bremen the Palatinate and Scotland heretofore might they not have had Prelates when they would 4. Was not the necessity far more notorious to those that I now plead for They lived in a Land where Episcopacy was cast out and kept out by a potent Army I think there were but four or five Bishops alive when it was restored 5. It is false that they cast out the Bishops Those Ministers that joyned with the Parliament to cast them out were Ordained by Bishops and therefore are none of the men that we are speaking of These that were Ordained by Presbyters were then young men at School or in the Universities And what are other mens actions to them L. But
faulty or repugnant to God's word and will not assent and consent to all therein 3. The Papists hereby scandalized do scorn us and say The question is not now of an Infallibility or a Judge that all must assent to It is but who this Infaliible Iudge is whether it be the Pope and a General Council or the English Convocation which is liker to be of greater authority and infallibility we require no greater assent and consent of you to the Canons of the Universal Church than the State and Church of England require to their Books 4. This seemeth to us to let the Articles Liturgie and Ordination Book above the Bible 1. God himself hath not made the assent and consent to every thing contained and prescribed in the Bible necessary to Salvation or to the Ministry 1. There are divers Books in our Bibles whose Divine authority many have questioned who yet were not for that degraded The Apochryphal books are yet controverted by men tolerated on both sides There are hundreds of various Readings where no one is necessitated to determine for this or that Translations are all faulty being the work of faulty men And no wise men will declare that this or that or any Translation hath nothing in it contrary to the Original Word of God. And are our Bishops Books more faultless 5. It is a sin to Confederate with and Encourage such audacious Lording it over the Faith and Souls of men and such ill Examples L. Your instances shew that you expound them too strictly Can you imagine them so insolent and impious as to impose their own Books more strictly than the Bible and require more Assent and Consent M. Call it what you will I must suppose that matter of Fact which is undeniably evident to our senses It 's an ill argument This is unreasonable and ungodly or inhumane Ergo It was not done What is so false absurd or impious that man may not do L. Some say They are Articles of Peace only and not of Faith. M. Some Brains will be cheated with a meer noise of words as Birds with a whistle We deny not but Peace is one of the ends of the Impositions but the question is what are the Means Or whether they will take it for Conformity to promise I will live peaceably or I Assent that I should live in Peace Are you not bound in order to peace to Assent and Consent to all things in the Books Say I Assent that some things are true and good and some things false and bad which yet for Peace I will use and try how it will be taken L. Well What is there in these Books contrary to Gods Word or which you may not Assent and Consent to M. The number is greater than we would have them I will come to the chief of them which I before named to you L. I forgat to tell you that it is not all contained that is Assented to but all that is both contained and prescribed M. 1. A meer quibble to cheat Conscience Ask the Bishop Morley and Bishop Gunning yet living whether this was the sence and I will take their answer 2. Then Assent and Contained had been put in in vain and to deceive if Consent and Prescribed signifie as much without them 3. The word approbation in this Act and nothing contrary to Gods Word in the Canon confute this quibble 4. I told you were it so it 's never the better All in the Book is prescribed to some use They are outside men that think Vse reacheth but the Body Are Articles of Faith Assertions of no use CHAP. IX Point VI. Of the Article of Baptized Infants Salvation M. THE sixth Point of our Non-conformity is a new Article of Faith in these words in a Rubrick which we must Profess Assent and Consent to It is certain by the Word of God that Children which are baptized and dying before they commit actual sin are undoubtedly saved L. And what have you against Assenting to this M. 1. That it is a New Article of Faith. 2. That it is arrogant and divisive making a grand Controversie one Article of Faith. 3. It is certainly false in most if not every one that declareth such assent 4. It is a dangerous adding to the Word of God. L. Why call you a Rubrick an Article of Faith M. It is most expresly made such What is an Article of Faith but that which must be Assented to as certain by the Word of God Will you deny the Name where there is this Definition L. But how do you prove it to be new M. Because it was never made for us before you have the affirmative If you say it was ever before prove it It 's not in the Bible it 's not in our 39 Articles nor Creed L. Are not the old words of the former Book to the same sense M. Not at all If they were why did the New Convocation alter them The old words plainly signifie no more than this that Infants baptized have all ex parte ministri and may be saved without Confirmation Exorcism Chrysme Spittle Salt Milk and Honey and such other additions supposing him ex parte sui under the promise of Salvation that is to be the seed of the Faithful Though I verily believe that after the making of the Common-prayer Book our Canon-Makers in Bancrofts dayes began to warp towards a worser sence But our Defenders of the Liturgy expound it as I say and the tenor of the words may tell the Reader that they meant no more L. Tell me first where it is that your Controversie lyeth M. I. Negatively 1. It is not whether the Infant Seed of one believing Parent should be Baptized This is agreed on 2. It is not whether those may be dedicated to God as our Children and baptized who are Adopted or any way made our own Children as Abrahams bought and born to him in his house as his propriety were Though we cannot say we are certain of this yet we will not contradict them that say they are 3. It is not whether Hypocrites Children have not so far a right to Baptisme Coram Ecclesia as that the Minister ought to baptize them if it be justly demanded 4. It is not whether there be a certainty of the Salvation of all the baptized Infants of true faithful Christians that die before actual sin Though all good Christians are not certain of this yet with the Synod of Dort we hold that Christians have no just cause to doubt of it 5. It is not whether they may not be good men that think all baptized ones absolutely in a state of Salvation None of these are the Controversie II. But it is 1. Whether all Infants without exception that be baptized are saved if they then die 2. Whether this be certain by the Word of God. 3. Whether all that be not undoubtedly certain of it should be no Ministers L. But it is not said All Infants but Infants indefinitely
time The Law refuseth them and it is in vain for the Parents to send them to a Minister who they know hath solemnly covenanted to reject them Hundreds have been baptized by Nonconformists because the Church refuseth them 2. And as to their compelling men to get Godfathers I answer 1. Those that think it a sin will not obey that compulsion but rather suffer 2. If any yield against conscience to escape suffering such compulsion doth but drive them towards damnation 3. But those that yield to it by compulsion do but seem to do it and do it not For they agree before hand with the Godfathers to represent them and speak in their names and to be themselves no undertakers Though all this is very hard shifting L. I confess this is a case so distant from things indifferent that were there but this one reason I will no more persuade any to Assent and Consent to all things contained and prescribed even to the use M. And what think you if the same men that made these Canons and subscribe to all this are the sharp condemners of Schism and Anabaptistry 1. What is Schism if this be not causelessly to keep out so many from the Church And have not the Anabaptists a far more excusable pretence to deny the baptizing of Infants than this in question is The case is of great difficulty to them and it is Christ's will that they doubt of But here is no difficulty And these men set the will and devise of man against Christ who said Forbid them not and was Angry with those that forbad them to come to him CHAP. XII Point IX Of the Cross in Baptism L. I Have oft wondred what any man can say against the use of the Cross in Baptism which signifieth our resolution to be true to a crucified Christ. M. I have oft thought many things absurd in you Lawyers to which I have been reconciled when I was well informed of the reason of them I ask you 1. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the King and only universal Lawgiver to his Church L. Yes but men under him may make local Laws M. 2. Do you believe that he is the Author of the Christian Baptism L. Yes no doubt I find it Mat. 20. 19. M. 3. Do you believe that he did it so defectively that men may amend it L. No doubt but he did his own work perfectly M. 4. Do you not believe that it is his Prerogative to institute Sacraments of the covenant of Grace L. Yes no doubt for our Church holdeth that there are but two and disowneth the five Roman Sacraments And yet I think most of them may be called Sacraments especially Ordination and Matrimony and so may the Kings Coronation but not Sacraments of the Covenant of Grace M. Let us now enquire 1. What a Sacrament of the Covenant of Grace is 2. Whether our crossing be not such I. The Romans used the word Sacraments for an external obliging covenanting ceremony especially for the Act of soldiers ceremony by binding themselves to military relation and fidelity to their captains A Sacrament of the covenant of grace is an outward visible Act or ceremony by which we oblige our selves in covenant to Christ as our Saviour promising fidelity and by which we are told by Christs ministers that his Grace is signified which is given by his Covenant The Catechism indeed saith It is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace given to us ordained by Christ himself as a means whereby we receive the same and a pledge to assure us thereof But it 's obvious to any man of reason that the words Ordained by Christ himself signifie not a Sacrament as such but as Divine distinct from humane Else it were impossible for man to be guilty of making false humane Sacraments If they should make more just such as Baptism and the Lords Supper they would be no sinful Sacraments if none be Sacraments but Christs If there be all these things there is a Sacrament of the Covenant of Grace falsely instituted by man. 1. If there be an outward visible sign 2. If both the purchased and conveyed Grace of the Covenant of Christ be signified by it 3. And so signified as to be an instituted means of conveying it 4. If it be a sign obliging the covenanting person to his Covenant duty 5. And if thus it be a symbol or badge of the Order professed I. The outward visible sign is crossing or the transient Image of a Cross made by one that acteth as a Minister of Christ by his pretended Commission and received in his forehead by the baptized II. The thing signified is both the work of Redemption purchasing grace and grace given by that purchase Both these are fully expressed Can. 30. The holy Ghost by the mouthes of the Apostle did honour the name of the Cross so far that under it he comprehended not only Christ crucified but the force effect and merits of his death and passion with all the comforts fruits and promises which we receive or expect thereby The Church of England hath retained still the sign of it in baptism following therein the Primitive and Apostolical Churches and accounting it a lawful outward ceremony and honourable badge whereby the Infant is dedicated to the Service of him that dyed on the Cross as by the words of the Common-Prayer book may appear which words are we receive this Child into the Congregation of Christ's Flock and do sign him with the Sign of the Cross in token that he shall not be ashamed to confess the faith of Christ crucified and manfully to fight under his banner against sin the world and the devil and to continue Christ's faithful Souldier and Servant to his lifes end Amen And in the Preface of Ceremonies They serve to a decent order and godly discipline and such as be apt to stir up the dull mind of man to the remembrance of his duty to God by some notable and spiritual signification whereby he may be edified So that the thing signified is Christ crucified with the benefits of his Cross and the Grace of edification by stirring up our dull minds by the moral causality of the cause and binding us to constancy to Christ. L. But moral causing by objects works not on Infants M. True no more doth washing in water and yet this is used for the benefit of the Parents at present and of Infants when they are at the use of reason Indeed Christ by his own Sacrament giveth Right and Relative grace which he will not do by mens inventions III. But man plainly appointeth the Cross to work this grace by way of exciting signification IV. And it is expresly made man's covenanting sign by which he bindeth himself to covenant fidelity that he will not be ashamed to confess the Faith of Christ crucified and manfully to fight c. The whole duty of the covenant on man's part is promised hereby V. And the
Offices as a Body of many Members or a Chain of many Links as we say Bonum est ex Causis integris And he that wounds any one Member wounds the Man and he that breaketh one Link breaketh the Chain And he that accuseth any one part of the Government accuseth the Government thereby And there is no doubt in the World but they so intended that made this Canon L. And what have you against your Obedience to this M. You may easily know what by what is already said 1. I have fully proved as aforesaid in my Treatise of Episcopacy that if Episcopacy were never so certainly of Divine Institution this Form of Diocesan Prelacy deposeth quantum in se the old Church Form the old Episcopacy the old Presbytery and almost all true Discipline and in stead of each sets up that which is repugnant to the Word of God. And must we all confederate to maintain this Church Corruption and all agree to renounce Reformation or any Conviction tending to Repentance 2. I have told you what it is for Lay-men and Courts to arrogate the Decretive Power of the Church Keys and for single Priests and Officials to rule all the Clergy and People as under them And for our Prelate to undertake to be the sole Bishop over many Hundred Clergy And then to Govern per alios in a secular manner even by Lay-men that do that in his Name which he knows not of and this in order to Gaols and Ruine If all this be agreeable to God's Word what is contrary to it 3. I have told you what it is to make every Church Officer so necessary as that it should be Excommunication to say Any one of them is sinful when as Learned good Men as most the World hath have written to prove almost all of them sinful corrupt Inventions of Arrogance and that it 's far worse for Men to presume to make new Forms and Offices of Church Government than new Ceremonies 4. The Parliament of England condemned the Oath called the caetera Oath in the Canon of 1640. And the late long Parliament of 1662. never restored it nor any since And was it not formed according to this Canon What 's c. but And the rest that bear Office therein reliquos ad ejusdem gubernaculum constitutos For my part tho' I have oft read over Cousins Tables and the Canons I do not yet know and remember all the Church Governing Courts and Offices How many there be besides the Bishop the Chancellors Court the Arches the Prerogative Court the Arch-deacons Commissaries Officials Surrogates I know not And are every one of these become as necessary to be taken for lawful as the twelve Apostles or the Articles of our Creed For my part I am far from thinking that those Bishops and Doctors should be Excommunicated or Damned who by Faction are drawn to deny the Ministry and Churches that have not Prelatical Ordination and Government and shall all be condemned that think as ill of Civilians Excommunicatings 5. I have told you what it is for every Lord Knight and Gentleman that doth but say that any of these Church Governing Offices are against the Word of God to be ipso facto an Excommunicate man. And for the people to be put to question whether they may chuse them for Parliament men and whether they may sit in Parliament while Excommunicate L. This Canon with the three or four adjoining make me begin to think hardlier of the Canoneers than I thought I should ever have done as to their honesty M. I would not have you think too hardly of them but only to think truly of Nonconformity Chap. XXVII Point XXIV Of Publishing the 8th Canons Excommunications L. VVHat is the Eighth Canon and its Excommunication M. Whoever shall hereafter affirm or teach that the Form and Manner of Making and Consecrating Bishops Priests or Deacons containeth ANY THING in it that is repugnant to the Word of God Let them be Excommunicated ipso facto and not to be restored until he repent and publickly revoke such his wicked Errors L. What have you against the Execution of this M. A great deal In sum it is unrighteous oppressing and dividing to cast out all Persons from the Church of Christ who think that nothing is faulty in the Book of Ordination or in their Principles or Practice there expressed And we dare not curse those that Christ doth bless should we do this for a Benefice in what should we differ from the sin of Balaam who loved the wages of unrighteousness whose iniquity and madness his Ass rebuked saith St. Peter 2 Pet. 2. 15. Yea shall we not be far worse than he that for an House full of Silver and Gold could not go beyond the Word of the Lord and did not curse but bless Gods people And it is not proud malignant Tongues reviling Gods Servants and calling their Opinions wicked Errors that will make Christ disown his Members or will warrant Balaam or us to curse them O how unlike is this to the Spirit and Ministry of Christ for Prelates and Priests to curse and cast out the Children of God for saying that they go against his Law. L. But what is amiss in the Book of Ordination M. I am anon to tell you that But if there were nothing amiss in it yet the belief of its innocency is not necessary to Salvation L. But if every man have leave to accuse the Orders of the Church what Order can be maintained M. 1. Leave modestly to express dissent in a doubtful case may stand with Order 2. If men do it disorderly there be other Penalties besides ipso facto Excommunication Every breach of the peace is not Rebellion nor punisht with Death But I 'll tell you briefly what may occasion good men to say that their Ordinations are sinful 1. In that they thereby obtrude Pastors on the Churches upon the bare choice of a Patron without or against the peoples wills 2. In that they professedly ordain such as their Canon forbids to Preach or Expound any Doctrine 3. In that they determine that Bishops Priests and Deacons are three distinct Orders which yet is an undetermined Controversie among even the Learnedst Papists And must we damn and cut off men for that which the very Papists leave at liberty 4. In that they ordain men to an Office which Scripture maketh no mention of Dr. Hammond saith that it cannot be proved that there were any Presbyters subject to Bishops in Scripture times nor any but Bishops None that had not power of Ordination and the Keys nor any Bishops of a multitude of Churches and Presbyters both which are here ordained 5. In that they Swear Obedience to Arch-bishops and their Sees and make Priests Covenant Obedience to their Ordinaries as aforesaid If a godly man do as Bucer did to King Edward the Sixth as you may see in his Scripta Anglic. and desire some of these faults to be amended doth he deserve
Atheistical L. You lay heavy Charges on the Parliament and Bishops that have silenced you you are best take heed what you say M. No honest heed will secure a man in this Age of malignity and perjury But you mistake me I meddle not with the Parliament Laws or Bishops much less with the King I leave all men to their righteous Judge who is at the door To his Judgment they stand or fall I only tell you what I think it would be in us that are Vowed to the sacred Ministry if we desert our Office and Work for Man's Prohibition L. But all these People that you talk of may find room in other Parish Churches Many Churches in London are half empty or have room enough M. Do you not know that the London Churches were burnt down 1666 and to this day it 's but few of them that are built again but Ministers preach in small inconvenient Tabernacles And those that are built the Seats are commonly all taken up long ago and lock'd up I heard the last Week an Eminent Esquire say that he offer'd Five Pound for a Seat and could have none and he was not able to stand so long with the Lads in the Alley People will not let Strangers into their Seats when they are Crowded with the Owners I come into no Church that hath a competent sober Preacher that is not full Alleys and Seats And I pray you if ten Thousand out of Stepney or Martins or Giles would go about the City to seek for Church-room 1. How shall they know before hand in what Churches to find it 2. When they miss it in three or four the time will be over before they find it in a fifth 3. Few but strong men are able to stand so long in the Alleys without Seats 4. And this supposeth them to be honest thirsty Souls that have least need whereas the worser sort that have no such appetite are the Multitude who will stay at home if they have not convenience near them 5. And the most willing People will hardly travel far to hear a man rail at them and slander them as some do L. But what great supply of this defect do your Meetings make Are not most of them in the Parishes where there is room And are not most of your hearers such as you think have least need M. 1. As many Meetings are held in the Greater Parishes as will be endured and more would be could they be suffered at any possible rate 2. Those that dwell in the greater Parishes can go further into the less when they know before-hand that they have there room and hired Seats The Meetings that have been kept up in the City Parishes were as much for others as for the Parishioners and were there continued because there was till of late the least disturbance and gentlest prosecution 3. Those that have least need yet have so great need as is more regardable than any bodily want Souls and Heaven are precious and all Men have Sins and Weaknesses and Temptations and all helps possible are little enough to secure our Salvation 4. When godly Persons are at our Assemblies they take not up that room in the Parish-Churches which others would have and so exclude not others L. But after all your Meetings there are still as many thousands as you talk of that go to no Church M. We are unwilling to be found any Cause of that The more need there is the greater is our guilt if we neglect what we can do for the supply L. But what 's this to the common Case of Country Parishes M. For my part I would have no silenced Minister preach where there is not evident need But the Country alas is not without need 1. Some Parishes are so great that part of the Inhabitants have more miles to come to Church than the Aged Women Weak and Children can Travel 2. Too many have such Teachers as the people dare not take for their Pastors any more than an Ignorant Quack for their Physician or one for their Schoolmaster that cannot read 3. Some had able Learned Pastors turned out and they cannot prove that their relation to them as such is dissolved 4. Some by the ruining Prosecutions of the Clergy and Bishops Counsils are cast into an over-great aversness to them and will not take such for their Pastors as they think have the Teeth and Claws of Wolves And will not travel far to seek Figs and Grapes on Thorns and Thistles And if these err and be to be blamed they are not therefore to be forsaken any more than our Children if they cannot eat Cheese are to be famished and denied all other food But I must refer you to a full Treatise which I have written to justifie our Preaching called An Apology for it At least I pray you Study these Texts of Scripture Mat. 5. 13 14 15 16. and 28. 19 20. Fph. 4. 10 to 17. 1 Tim. 4. 15 16. 1 Cor. 4. 1 2. Mat. 24. 45 46 47 48. Act. 4. 19 and 5. 28. 1 Cor. 9. 14 16. Act. 4. 29. 2 Tim. 4. 1 2 3. 1 Tim. 6. 13 14. 2 Tim. 1. 8 11 12 13. Tit. 2. 15. 1 Pet. 5. 1 2 3. 2 Tim. 2. 2 24 25. Eph. 6. 19 20. Mat. 10. 7 8. 16 17 c. and 9. 38. Luk. 9. 62. and 10. 2. L. But why may you not keep away five miles from Corporations and places where you have Preached M. Did you not say even now That small Countrey Parishes have no need of us One Man may serve for two Hundred or a Thousand better than for many Thousands 2. The Reasons of our Preaching is Men's real need and the Churches good Therefore we are most obliged caeteris paribus where there is most need and most probability of doing good 3. Christ bids us When they persecute you in one City fly to another And the Apostles first planted their Churches in Cities If you know the Reasons of these you know our Reasons To conclude whose Service is it think you to perswade 2000 such Ministers to give over their Preaching and Ministry whose interest requireth it Did Christ or his Apostles ever do or perswade such a thing But the way to bring us all to Popery is to disable its chief Adversaries and to obliterate all Religion first that Ignorance and Unconscionableness may be receptive of a new Form. You must take your Church-Bells and break and melt them if you will cast them anew to bring them to a new sound and use Chap. XLIV Of Lay Conformity Point I. Whether all Men must trust their Souls only on the Pastoral Care of such as our Patrons choose and Bishops institute L. I Thought you would have objected only against Forms and Gestures and you talk of Matters that affright one at the very stating of the Case But how are all Lay-men thus obliged M. I have before cited the express words of the Canon They must be presented and prosecuted
during the Iewish Policy command them to use such a Discipline much more in his own Churches L. What are your other Reasons for it M. 2. The very Nature of Christ's Church required it which is a Society separated from the World under special Laws of Holiness and Love and for special heavenly Ends If therefore it shall be confounded with the World and not separated to Christ it is no Church 3. Christ did it for the Honour of himself and his Kingdom If he be no more for Holiness than the Infidel and Heathen World is what is he better than they or how is he a Saviour or what is the Church better than Infidels 4. It is needful to save Heathens from deceit that would come into the Church and to convince them that their impure Communion is insufficient 5. It is needful to save Christians from damning deceit that they may not think that a dead barren unholy Faith and Name of Christianity will save them without a holy obedient Heart and Life 6. It is needful to keep Christ's Ordinances from falsifying Profanation If a sealed Pardon and Gift of Life shall in the Sacraments be given as commonly to Dogs as Children it is a taking God's Name in vain and profane belying Jesus Christ. 7. It is needful to bring Sinners to Repentance that they may be Pardoned and Saved 8. And it is needful to the comforting absolution of Penitents 9. Accordingly God 's Church in all Ages hath owned it as their Law of Christ's institution to this day L. But some learned Men say This was but because there was at first no Christian Magistrate But when there was such the Discipline fell into their hands M. The first Christian Magistrates finding the Church in Possession of it confirmed it and too much accumulated and added to it but took it not away Of this see a small Book which I wrote of the Magistrates Power in Religion to Dr. Lud. Moulin which may end all this dispute Briefly I ask you Qu. 1. Would you have all Infidels and Pagans baptized and Communicate without any Profession of the Christian Religion first L. God forbid That 's a Contradiction M. Shall any words go for a Profession or what must that Profession be L. It must be a Profession of Christian Faith and Obedience M. Who must try and judge of that Profession whether it be Christianity or not Is it Magistrates or Pastors L. Magistrates have somewhat else to do Else they must study and exercise that work alone for they will have no time for Civil Government if they undertake this M. Did not Christ institute an Office for it and give them this Power of the Keyes And if one half that Office cease as soon as Magistrates were Christians why not the other half and so Magistrates must Preach Baptize and celebrate the Sacrament L. It must be no doubt the Ministerial Office to judge who is fit to be in Church Communion Else they were Slaves if they must be forced to take all uncapable Men to their Charge and Communion against their Consciences and Wills No Physician Tutor or School-Master will be forced to take such Patients Pupils or Scholars as will not be ruled by him and will make make him do what they list against his Will. M. You must confess the use of discipline or else openly disown the Word of God the very Being of the Church and the Judgment of the Universal Church to this day And do you think then that to deprive the Church of this is a lawful part of Conformity L. How prove you that the Laity is deprived of it M. 1. In our Great Parishes the People are few of them known to the Priest or to one another Of the two Parishes of my last abode I do not think but there are Fifty Thousand unknown to the Minister and to each other And how can these admonish the Offenders or the Minister exercise this discipline upon unknown Persons 2. The People know that it is in vain to begin where there can be no progress To what purpose is it to tell the Church when it 's sure to do more harm than good 1. The swarm of the Vicious is so great that they cannot be Prosecuted 2. The Minister himself forbeareth it as unpracticable 3. The accused must be Prosecuted at rates which Men cannot bear 4. And before Bishops that cannot possibly do this work to one of a Thousand any more than one School-master can Try and Correct all the faulty Scholars in a Diocess 5. And Men must be Judges that will never call Sinners to Repentance with Ministerial Evidence and Love and Patience but like Secular Courts bid them Recant or be Excommunicate 6. And the Cause must be decided by Lay-men that profanely usurp the Power of the Keys And how is Christ's discipline here possible Polluted common Churches frighten away the Religious conscionable People L. Do you not before complain of too much exercise of Discipline by Excommunications M. Yes of Discipline against Christ It is not enough for your Churches to be common and unclean without true Discipline but when you should drive out the Dogs and Swine you turn out the Children Witness all the fore-mentioned Canons As I said you first force in all the ignorant ungodly multitude that are unfit then these are the strength and major part Then they cannot come under due Discipline then this grieveth Religious People and they find fault with it And then they must be taken for Schismaticks and condemn'd and ruin'd for finding fault In short what need there disputing Is it not notorious matter of fact that this Discipline is not exercised against one Drunkard Swearer Fornicator c. of a multitude and are not Men then deprived of the use of it And when it 's known that they cannot have it in most or many Parishes how are they bound to live and die without the benefit of it L. Do you think Men are bound to separate from all Churches that have not this Discipline Sure it is not Essential to the Church M. I do not think that Preaching as distinct from reading is essential to a Church but that it may be at least for a time a sorry Church without it as those in Moscovy are But I would not continue in such a Church that is without it if I can have a better It 's one thing what a Man should endure that can have no better without more hurt than good and another thing what Men should chuse in obedience to Christ and for their own and the Churches good that can attain it Do you think it is lawful to omit all Duty that is not essential to the Church surely your many humane Offices your Forms and Ceremonies your Declarations and Subscriptions to them are further from being essential than true Discipline is and yet you think that the omission of these is unsufferable Is mans accidental inventions more necessary than Christs Ordinance and Church
pretence of concord or decency in God's service we can but wish and speak for better L. But they say if nothing unlawful be imposed it is disobedience to refuse it And if disobedience be endured no Government can stand M. 1. Judge by what is said whether no Sin be imposed 2. Obedience to God being more necessary than to man all just Rulers should encourage a due fear of sin and do nothing that tempts men from obeying God. 3. God himself doth not silence eject or condemn men for all disobedience else none could be saved All sin is disobedience to God. There is disobedience in small things as well as in great and of ignorance and infirmity as well as of malicious wilfulness And what smaller matter can there be than Humane Forms and Ceremonies and where is ignorance more excuseable than in things so minute and so uncertain and hard that they must all be wiser than you and I that know them to be lawful and what Unity will be in that Church and Kingdom that will endure none but such as are wiser than you and I L. 8. Your 8th Article preventeth all the objections against Ministers power and liberty while all are under Law responsible But what if the Rulers be Bishops or men that distaste your desired discipline M. We are not choosing Rulers by the sword but only Pastors to guide us by God's word and if we shall have bad ones we must patiently suffer we cannot remedy such infelicities L. But both Papists and many others say That the Iudgment of Ministers Doctrine and Ministry belongeth not to the Magistrate but to the Church M. Iudgment is as various as Execution e. g. If one be a Heretick or turbulent in Schism 1. The Magistrate is judge whether and how he shall be Corporally Punished 2. The neighbour Churches are Judges whether they will owne his Communion as approved 3. His own Flock are discerning Iudges whether he be fit to be trusted and owned as their Pastor or to be forsaken by them We must not imitate Papists in exempting Ministers from the Magistrates Government L. 9. I confess your Reasons against Constraining Infidels to Profess Christianity are undeniable and agree with the sence of the Antient Church and Fathers But the Papists and many Protestants hold that when once men are Baptized they may be forced to Communion and all other Christian Duty M. What if they openly apostatize and turn Infidels Iews or Mahometans will they yet force them to Communicate in the Lord's Supper L. No but they will put them to Death as they Burn Hereticks M. That 's their way but not Christ's way Why should they put Apostates or Hereticks to death any more than Infidels that never believed L. Because they break their Covenant and because they sin against the Laws which they consented to M. And doth not sinning against God's Law In neither Consenting to nor Obeying it deserve as bad If God by many years Preaching call one man to Christianity and he derides it to the last and another took it up but by Education and the Law of the Land and never heard and understood the Reasons of it and turneth from it being taken prisoner by the Turks which of these is the greater sinner God binds them to Believe and Consent that do not and they sin against God's Law which is more than to break their own Covenant as such But both these deserve death and worse from God But if it were Christ's way to have men put one of them to death I see not but why they should do so by the other Torment or Death is no fitter way to make an Apostate believe than other Infidels It 's known that all the ancient Churches abhorred this forcing and punishing way I have wondered at the Impudence of Baronius Binnius and other Papists and justifie Martin for separating from the Communion of the Bishops that were for punishing the Priscillianists by the sword and Canonize him as a Saint and condemn these Bishops for it and yet are for for more cruelties themselves to far better men than the Priscillianists But where Fleshly interest is a mans Religion no wonder if it have neither consistency with Reason nor Modesty L. But if none but Volunteers be Christians or Communicants most will despise the Church and it will be empty M. All that are fit to be there will come in And those few will give the Pastors more comfort and lesser trouble than the multitude of the uncapable If your purse be not quite full of Gold will you fill it up with dung or stones The uncapable will do better for themselves and the Church among the Audientes or Catechumens It is their forcing in the uncapable that hath corrupted the Church and deprived the Flock of their due privileges choosing their Pastors c. because it 's made up of men unworthy of them And doubtless if you but countenance and preferr the Communicants before the rest it will draw in more than are capable without force L. If the Excommunicate be no further punished nor forced to repent the Church censures will be despised How little will men care for an Excommunication M. This is commonly said and much of it is true But 1. Can you force men to Repent or rather Lye You make him Repent that he brought himself into your hands and into suffering But that is not to Repent of Sin. Will you tell a man before hand If thou wilt but say thou repentest rather than lye in Gaol till death we will pronounce thee absolved and forgiven in Christ's Name Who can think ill enough of such an Absolution 2. Do not they scorn Christ that say he hath advanced his Church to the Dignity of Government by putting into their hands a Reed for a Scepter and a Leaden Sword that will do nothing without the Magistrate's Sword of Steel Hath he set up an useless mock-power in the Church 3. Did the Primitive-Churches for 300 years use any Sword but Spiritual Or did they find it so uneffectual and vain 4. Yea for some hundred years after there were Christian Magistrates did not the Church abhorr such a thing as forcing the Excommunicate to repent by imprisonment or the Sword 5. No man is meet to be a just Member that careth not for a just Excommunication And still this sheweth what a wickedness it is to force in the unmeet that despise God's Ordinance and the Church that they are in And then God's Ordinance must be debauched for their unfitness 6. The Sword doth the Keys much more hindrance than help when it is thus annexed to them for then it cannot be discerned whether Excommunication do any Good or none or whether it be only the Sword that doth the cure And do not they that profess Excommunication to be vain without the Sword teach men to call them as Church Governours Vain and to despise them And is it not all one as to say if any good be done