Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	hand_n	imposition_n	ordination_n	2,839	5	9.9482	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A04434	The svmme and svbstance of the conference which, it pleased his excellent Maiestie to haue with the lords, bishops, and other of his clergie, (at vvhich the most of the lordes of the councell were present) in his Maiesties priuy-chamber, at Hampton Court. Ianuary 14. 1603. / Contracted by VVilliam Barlovv, Doctor of Diuinity, and Deane of Chester. Whereunto are added, some copies, (scattered abroad,) vnsauory, and vntrue.	Barlow, William, d. 1613.	1604 (1604)	STC 1456.5; ESTC S100949	36,617	118

Maiestie keeping an euen hand willed that the worde Disciples shoulde bee omitted and the wordes Iesus said to bee Printed in a different letter that it might appeare not to be a part of the text The third obiection against Subscripti on were Interogatories in baptisme propounded to Infantes which being a profound point was put vpon M. Knewstubs to pursue who in a long and perplexed speech saide something out of S. Austen that baptizare was credere but what it was his Maiestie plainely confessed Ego non intelligo and asked the Lords what they thought hee meant it seemed that one present conceiued him for hee standing at his backe bid him vrge that punct vrge that punct that is a good point my Lord of VVinton aiming at his meaning shewed him the vse thereof out of S. Austen and added the Fathers reason for it Qui peccauit in altero credat in altero which was seconded by his Maiestie whome it pleased for the rest of the matters which followed him selfe alone to answere and iustly might hee appropriate it to himselfe for none present were able with quicker conceit to vnderstand with a more singular dexteritie to refute with a more iudicious resolution to determine then his Maiestie herein being more admirable that these points wherein some thought him preiudiciall to the contrarie all of vs supposed him to haue beene but a stranger to them he could so intelligently apprehend and so readily argue about them it was I say seconded by his Maiesty by reason that the question should bee propounded to the party whome it principally concerned secondly by example of himselfe to whom interrogatories were propounded when he was crowned in his infancie king of Scotland And here his Maiestie as hereafter at the end of euery obiection hee did asked them whether they had any more to say M. Knewstubs tooke exceptions to the Crosse in Baptisme which were in number two First the offence of Weake brethren grounded vpon the words of Saint Paule Rom. 14. and 1. Cor. 8. viz the Consciences of the weake not to bee offended which places his excellent Maiestie aunswered most acutely beginning with that generall rule of the Fathers Distingue tempora concordabunt Scripturae shewing heere the difference of those times and ours then a Church not fully planted nor settled but ours long stablished and flourishing then Christians newely called from Paganisme and not throughly grounded which is not the case of this Church seeing that Heathenish doctrine for manie yeares hath beene hence abandoned Secondly with a question vnanswerable asking them how long they woulde bee weake whether 45. yeares were not sufficient for them to growe strong 3. Who they were that pretended this weaknesse for wee saith the King require not now Subscription of Laikes Idiots but Preachers and Ministers who are not still I trow to be fed with milke but are enabled to feede others 4. That is was to bee doubted some of them were strong enough if not headstrong and howsoeuer they in this case pretended weakenesse yet some in whose behalfe they nowe spake thought themselues able to teach him and all the Bishops of the land His obiection against the Crosse consisted of three Interrogatories 1. Whether the Church had power to institute an externall significant signe to which was replyed first that hee did mistake the vse of the Crosse with vs which was not vsed in Baptisme any otherwise then onely as a ceremonie Secondly by their owne example who make imposition of handes in their ordination of Pastors to be a signe significant Thirdly in prayer saieth the Bishoppe of Winton the kneeling on the grounde the lifting vp of our handes the knocking of our breastes are Ceremonics significant the first of our humilitie comming before the mightie God the second of our confidence and hope the other of our sorrow detestation of our sins and these are and may lawfully bee vsed Lastly M. Deane of the Chappell remembred the practise of the Iewes who vnto the institution of the Passeouer prescribed vnto them by Moses had as the Rabbines witnesse added both signes and words eating sowre hearbs and drinking wine with these words to both Take and eate these in remembrance c. Drinke this in remembrance c. Vpon which addition and tradition of theirs our Sauiour instituted the Sacrament of his last Supper in celebrating it with the same wordes and after the same manner thereby approuing that fact of theirs in particular and generally that a Church may institute and retaine a signe significant which satisfied his Maiestie exceeding well And here the king desired to haue himselfe made acquainted about the antiquitie of the vse of the Crosse. Which Doctor Reynaldes confessed to haue beene euer since the Apostles times but this was the difficulty to proue it of that auncient vse in Baptisme For that at their going abroad or entering into the Church or at their Prayers and benedictions it was vsed by the Auncients desired no greate proofe but whether in Baptisme Antiquitie approued it was the doubt cast in by M. Deane of Sarum whome his Maiestie singled out with a speciall Encomion that hee was a man well trauelled in the Auncients which doubt was answered obsignatis tabulis by the Deane of Westminster whome the Kings Maiestie vpon my Lord of London his motion willed to speake to that poynt out of Tertullian Cyprian Origen and others that it was vsed in Immortali lauacro which wordes being a little descanted it fell from one I thinke it was my Lord of VVinchester obiter to say that in Constantine his time it was vsed in Baptisme What quoth the King and is it now come to that passe that wee shall appeach Constantine of Popery and superstition if then it were vsed saith his Maiesty I see no reason but that still wee may continue it M. Knewstubs his second question was that put case the Church had such power to adde significant signes whether it might there adde them where Christ had already ordayned one which hee saide was no lesse derogatorie to Christes institution as he thought then if any Potentate of this land should presume to adde his seale vnto the great seale of England To which his Maiesty answered that the case was not alike for that no signe or thing was added to the Sacrament which was fully and perfectly finished before any mention of the Crosse is made for confirmation whereof hee willed the place to be read Lastly if the Church had that power also yet the greatest scruple to their Conscience was how farre such an ordinance of the Church was to binde them without impeaching their Christian Libertie whereat the King as it seemed was much moued and tolde him hee would not argue that point with him but aunswere therein as Kinges are wont to speake in Parliament Le Roy J'auiserá adding withall that it smelled very rankly of Anabaptisme comparing it vnto the vsage of a beardlesse boy

the Lords he sate downe in his chaire remoued forward from the cloth of State a prettie distance where beginning with a most graue and princely declaration of his generall drift in calling this assembly no nouell deuise but according to the example of all Christian Princes who in the commencement of their raigne vsually take the first course for the establishing of the Church both for doctrine and policie to which the verie Heathens themselues had relation in their prouerbe A Ioue Principium and particularly in this land King Henry the eight toward the ende of his raigne after him King Edward the 6 who altered more after him Queene Marie who reuersed all and the last Queene of famous memory so his highnesse added for it is worth the noting that his Maiestie neuer remembreth her but with some honourable addition who setled it as now it standeth wherein hee sayd that he vvas happier then they in this because they were faine to alter all thinges they found established but he saw yet no cause so much to alter and chaunge any thing as to confirme that which he found well setled already which state as it seemed so affected his royal hart that it pleased him both to enter into a gratulation to almightie God at which wordes hee put off his hat for bringing him into the promised land where Religion was purely professed where he sate among graue learned and reuerend men not as before else where a King without state without honor without order where beardlesse boyes would braue him to his face and to assure vs that he called not this assembly for any Innouation acknowledging the gouernement Ecclesiasticall as now it is to haue beene approued by manifold blessings from God himselfe both for the encrease of the Gospell and vvith a most happie and glorious peace Yet because nothing could be so absolutely ordered but something might bee added afterward thereunto and in any state as in the body of man corruptions might insensibly grow either through time or persons and in that hee had receiued many complaintes since his first entrance into the kingdome especially through the dissentions in the Church of many disorders as he heard and much disobedience to the lawes with a great falling away to Popery his purpose therefore was like a good Physition to examine trie the complaintes and fully to remoue the occasions thereof if they proue scandalous or to cure them if they were daungerous or if but friuolous yet to take knowledge of them thereby to cast a sop into Cerberus his mouth that hee may neuer barke againe his meaning beeing as hee pleased to professe to giue factious spirites no occasion hereby of boasting or glory for which cause hee had called the Bishops in seuerally by themselues not to be confronted by the contrary opponents that if any thing should be found meete to be redressed it might be done which his Maiestie twise or thrise as occasion serued reiterated without any visible alteration And this was the summe so farre as my dull head could conceiue and carry it of his Maiesties generall speech In particular he signified vnto them the principall matters why hee called them alone with vvhome hee vvould consult about some speciall pointes wherein himselfe desired to bee satisfied these hee reduced to three heades First concerning the Booke of Common Prayer and Diuine Seruice vsed in this Church Second Excommunication in the Ecclesiasticall Courtes Third the Prouiding of fit and able Minister s for Ireland In the booke he required satisfaction about three thinges First about Confirmation first for the name if arguing a confirming of Baptisme as if this Sacrament without it were of no validity then were it blasphemous Secondly for the vse first brought vpon this occasion Infants being baptized and aunswering by their Patrini it was necessarie they should bee examined when they came to yeares of discretion and after their profession made by themselues to be confirmed with a blessing or prayer of the Bishop laying his handes vpon their heades abhorring the abuse in Popery where it was made a sacrament and a corroboration to Baptisme The second was for Absolution vvhich how we vsed it in our Church hee knewe not hee had heard it likened to the Popes pardons but his Maiesties opinion was that there being onely two kindes thereof from God the one generall the other particular for the first all prayers and preaching do import an Absolution for the second it is to bee applied to speciall parties who hauing committed a scandall and repenting are absolued otherwise where there precedes not either excommunication or pennance there needs no absolution The third was Priuate Baptisme if priuate for place his Maiestie thought it agreed with the vse of the primitiue church if for persons that any but a Lawfull Minister might baptize any where he vtterly disliked and in this point his Highnesse grew somewhat earnest against the baptizing by women and Laikes The second head was Excommunication wherein hee offered two thinges to bee considered of first the matter second the person In the matter first whether it were executed as it is complained in light causes second whether it were not vsed too often In the Persons first why Lay men as Chancelors Commissaries should do it second why the Bishops themselues for the more dignitie to so high and waightie a censure should not take vpon them for their assistantes the Deane and Chapter or other ministers and Chaplaines of grauitie and account and so likewise in other Censures and giuing of orders c. The last for Ireland his Maiestie referred as you shall in the last daies conference heare to a consulation His Highnesse to whome I offer great wrong in beeing as Phocion to Demosthenes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the hatchet to cut short so admirable a speech hauing ended the Lord Archbishop after that on his knee he had signified hovve much this Whole land was bound to God for setting ouer vs a King so wise learned and iudicious addressed himselfe to enforme his Maiestie of all these pointes in their seuerall order And first as touching Confirmation hee shewed at large the antiquitie of it as being vsed in the Catholike Church euer since the Apostles time till that of late some particular Churches had vnaduisedly reiected it Then hee declared the lawfull vse of it agreeable to his Maiesties former speech affirming it to bee a meere calumniation and a very vntrue suggestion if any had informed his Highnesse that the Church of England did holde or teach that without Confirmation Baptisme was vnperfect or that it did adde any thing to the vertue and strength thereof And this hee made manifest by the Rubrikes in the Communion booke set before Confirmation which were there read My Lord of London succeeded saying that the authoritie of Confirmation did not depend onely vpon the Antiquitie and practise of the Primitiue Church which out of Cyprian Ep. 73. and Hierom. aduersus Luciferian hee

to the Statute I. Elizab. to speake so freely against the Leiturgie Discipline established Lastly forasmuch as that hee perceiued they tooke a course tending to the vtter ouerthrowe of the orders of the Church thus long continued hee desired to knowe the ende which they aimed at alledging a place out of M. Cartwright affirming that we ought rather to conforme our selues in orders and Ceremonies to the fashion of the Turkes then to the Papists which Position hee doubted they approued because contrary to the orders of the Vniuersities they appeared before his Maiestie in Turky gownes not in their Scholasticall habites sorting to their degrees His Maiestie obseruing my Lord of London to speake in some passion saide that there was in it something which hee might excuse something that hee did mislike excuse his passion hee might thinking he had iust cause to bee so moued both in respect that they did thus traduce the present well setled Church gouernement and also did proceede in so indirect a course contrary to their owne pretence and the intent of that meeting also yet hee misliked his sudden interruption of D. Reyn. whome he should haue suffered to haue taken his course and libertie concluding that there is no order nor can be any effectuall issue of disputation if each partie might not bee suffered without chopping to speake at large what hee would And therefore willed that either the Doctors should proceed or that the Bishoppe would frame his aunswere to these motions alreadie made although saith his Maiestie some of them are verie needlesse It was thought fitter to aunswere least the number of obiections encreasing the aunsweres would proue confused Vpon the first motion Concerning falling from Grace The Bishop of London tooke occasion to signifie to his Maiestie how very many in these dayes neglecting holinesse of life presumed too much of persisting in Grace laying all their Religion vpon Predestination If I shall bee saued I shall be saued which hee termed a desperate doctrine shewing it to bee contrarie to good Diuinitie and the true doctrine of Predestination whereein we should reason rather ascendendo then descendendo thus I liue in obedience to God in loue with my neighbour I follow my vocation c therefore I trust that God hath elected me predestinated mee to Saluation not thus which is the vsuall course of argument God hath Predestinated and chosen mee to life therefore though I sin neuer so grieuously yet I shall not be damned for whome he once loueth he loueth to the ende VVhereupon hee shewed his Maiestie out of the next article what was the doctrine of the Church of England touching Predestination in the verie last Paragraph scilicet We must receiue Gods promises in such wise as they be generally set forth to vs in holy scripture and in our doings that will of God is to be followed which wee haue expressely declared vnto vs in the word of God which parte of the said Article his Maiestie verie well approued and after hee had after his maner very singularly discoursed vpon that place of Paul worke out your saluation with feare and trembling he left it to bee considered whether any thing were meete to bee added for the clearing of the Doctor his doubt by putting in the worde often or the like as thus We may often depart from Grace but in the meane time wished that the doctrine of Predestination might bee verie tenderly handled and with great discretion least on the one side Gods omnipotency might be called in question by impeaching the doctrine of his eternall predestination or on the other a desperate presumption might be arreared by inferring the necessary certaintie of standing and persisting in grace To the second it was aunswered that it was a vaine obiection because by the doctrine and practise of the Church of England none but a licensed minister might preach nor either publikely or priuately administer the Eucharist or the Lords Supper And as for priuate Baptisme his Maiestie answered that hee had taken order for that with the Bishops already In the third point which was about Confirmation was obserued either a curiosity or malice because the Article which was there presently read in those wordes These fiue commonly called Sacraments that is to say Confirmation Pennance Orders c. are not to be accounted for Sacraments of the Gospell being such as haue growne partly of the corrupt following the Apostles c. insinuateth that the making of Confirmation to be a Sacrament is a corrupt imitation but the Communion Booke aiming at the right vse and proper sourse thereof makes it to bee according to the Apostles example which his Maiestie obseruing and reading both the places concluded the obiection to be a meere Cauil And this was for the pretended contradiction Now for the ground thereof the Bishoppe of London added that it was not so much founded vpon the places in the Acts of the Apostles which some of the Fathers had often shewed but vpon Heb 6. 2. where it is made as the first day hee had saide a parte of the Apostles Catechisme which was the opinion besides the iudgement of the holy Fathers of M. Caluin and D. Fulke the one vpon Heb. 6. 2. as vpon Saturday he had declared the other vpon Act. 8. verse 27. where with saint Augustine he saith that we do not in any wise mislike that auncient Ceremonie of imposition of hands for strengthening and confirming such as had beene baptized but vse it our selues beeing nothing else but as S. Austen affirmeth Prayer ouer a man to bee strengthened and confirmed by the holy Ghost or to receiue increase of the giftes of the holy Ghost as S. Ambrose saith and a little after alludeth vnto Heb. 6. 2. c. Neither neede there any great proofe of this saith my Lord. For Confirmation to be vnlawfull it was not their opinion vvho obiected this as hee supposed this was it that vexed them that they had not the vse thereof in their owne handes euery Pastor in his Parish to confirme for then it would bee accounted an Apostolicall institution and willed D. Reyn. to speake herein what he thought who seemed to yeeld thereunto replying that some Diocesse of a Bishoppe hauing therein 600. parish Churches which number caused the Bishop of London to thinke himselfe personally touched because in his Diocesse there are 609. or thereabouts it was a thing verie inconuenient to commit Confirmation vnto the Bishop alone supposing it impossible that he could take due examination of them all which came to be confirmed To the fact my Lord of London aunswered for his Maiesties information that the Bishops in their Visitations giue out notice to them who are desirous either to be themselues or to haue their children confirmed of the place where they will bee and appoint either their Chapleines or some other Ministers to examine them which are to bee cōfirmed and lightly confirme none but either by the testimonie or report of the

at his handes in giuing vs such a King as since Christ his time the like he thought hath not beene whereunto the Lords with one voice did yeeld a verie affectionate acclamation The Ciuilians present confessed that they could not in many houres warning haue so iudiciously plainely and accurately in such a briefe described it After this his Maiesty committed some weightie matters to be consulted of by the Lords and Bishops 1. for Excommunication in causes of lesse moment the name or censure to bee altered 2. for the High Commission the qualitie of the persons to be named and the nature of the causes to be handled therein 3. for recusant Communicants for there are 3. sortes saith his Maiestie of the Papistes some 1. which come to Sermons but not to seruice and prayer 2. some which come to both them but not to the Communion 3. a number which abstaine from all That inquirie might bee made of al those who were of the first second or third ranke concluding therein that the weake were to be informed the wilfull to bee punished Here my Lord Chancelor mentioned the writ de Excōmunicato capiendo which his Hon. saide did most affright the Papists of al other punishmēts because by reasō of that they were many wayes disabled in law therfore he would take order if his M tie so pleased to sēd that writ out against them freely without charge and if they were not executed his Lordship would lay the Undershiriffes in prison and to this the King assented The 4. thing to be consulted of was for the sending and appointing of Preachers into Ireland whereof saieth his Maiestie I am but halfe a King being Lord ouer their bodies but their soules seduced by Popery he much pittied affirming that where there is no true Religion there can be no continued obedience nor for Ireland onely but for some parts of Wales and the Northerne borders so once called though now no borders the men to bee sent not to be factious or scandalous for weeds will be weedes wheresoeuer they be and are good for nothing but to bee piked ouer the wall therefore they should single out men of sinceritie of knowledge of courage The last was for prouision of sufficient maintenance for the Clergy and withall for the planting of a learned and painfull minister in euery parish as time shall serue To euery of those his Maiestie willed that seuerall Cōmissioners of his Councell and bishops should be appointed by the Lords vpon the dissoluing the assembly present And thus hauing conferred of these points with his Bishops and referred othersome of them as you heard to speciall Committies his Maiestie willed that D. Reyn and his associates should bee called in to whom he presently signified what was done and caused the alterations or explications before named to bee read vnto them A little disputing there was about the wordes in mariage With my body I thee worship arguing no other thing to be ment by the word Worship then that which S. Paule willeth 1. Cor. 7. 4. the man thereby acknowledging that hereby he worshippeth his wife in that he appropriateth his body vnto her alone nor any more then that which S. Peter councelleth 1. Peter 3. 7. That the man should giue Honour to his Wife as to the weaker vessell yet for their satisfaction shold be put in With my body I thee worship honor if it were thoght fit so his M tie shut vp all with a most pithy exhortation to both sides for vnity perswading diligēce in each mans place without violence on the one party or disobedience on the other and willed them to deale with their friendes abroad to that purpose for his Maiestie feared and had some experience that many of them were ticklish and humorous nor that onely but labourers to peruert others to their fancies hee now saw that the exceptions against the Communion Booke were matters of weakenes therfore if the persons reluctant be discreet they will be wonne betimes by good perswasions if vndiscreete better they were remoued for many by their factious behauiour were driuen to be Papists Now then of their fruites he shall iudge them Obedience and Humilitie being markes of honest and good men Those he expected of them and by their example and perswasion of all their sorte abroade for if hereafter thinges being thus well ordered they should be vnquiet neither his Maiestie nor the state had any cause to thinke well of them To which they all gaue their vnanimous assent taking exception against nothing that was saide or done but promised to performe all dutie to the Bishoppes as their Reuerend fathers and to ioyne with them against the common aduersaries for the quiet of the Church Onely M. Chatterton of Emanuel Colledge kneeling requested that the wearing of the Surplis and the vse of the Crosse in Baptisme might not be vrged vpō some honest godly and painefull ministers in some partes of Lancashire who feared that if they should be forced vnto them many whome they had wonne to the Gospell would slide backe and reuolte vnto Popery againe and particularly instanced the Vicar of Ratesdale hee coulde not haue light vppon a worse for not many years before he was proued before my Lord Archbishop as his Grace there testified and my L. Chancelor by his vnseemely and vnreuerent vsage of the Eucharist dealing the bread out of a Basket euery man putting in his hand taking out a peece to haue made many loath the holy Communion and wholy refuse to come to Church his Maiesty aunswered that it was not his purpose and hee durst answere for the Bishops that it was not their intent presently and out of hād to inforce those things without fatherly admonitions conferences and perswasions premised but wished that it should be examined if those men by their paines and preaching had conuerted any from Popery and were withall men quiet of disposition honest of life and diligent in their calling if so letters should be written to the Bishoppe of Chester of whome his Maiestie gaue a very good testimony to that purpose if not but that they were of a turbulent and opposite spirite both they and others of that vnquiet humor should presently be enforced to a conformity and so for that point it was concluded that my Lord Archbishop should write to the Bishop of Chester his letters for that matter My Lord of London replyeth that if this were graunted the copy of these letters especially if his Maiestie had writtē as at first it was purposed would flye ouer al England and then other for their confines would make the same request and so no fruite should follow of this Conference but thinges would bee worse then they were before Therefore he humbly desired his Maiesty that a time shoulde bee limited vvithin vvhich compasse they should conforme themselues To vvhich his Maiestie readily assented willed that the Bishoppe of the Diocesse should set them dovvne the time and