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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	epistle_n	paul_n	timothy_n	2,910	5	10.4803	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A86482	Certain queres modestly (though plainly) propounded to such as affect the congregational-way, and specially to Master Samuel Eaton and Mr. Timothy Taylor. With an epistle also directed to them concerning their late book intituled A defence of sundry positions, &c. / By Richard Hollingworth, Mancuniensis.	Hollingworth, Richard, 1607-1656.	1646 (1646)	Wing H2488; Thomason E316_16; ESTC R200531; ESTC R233855	20,720	31

of doth warrant any one of the said Inhabitants to take as many good stones as he can come by out of this that and the other Neighbours houses concerning which they gave no such commandment Your not bringing a more punctual and pertinent proof argues either an implicite confession of the Truth of my Answer or inability to oppugne it A little after you discover too much willingnesse to quarrel at my Expressions Pag. 6. l. 20 25. wherein you say I would suggest that you make Opposition to Magistracy But doth not Master Weld a Congregational man when Master Rathband chargeth Independents to hold that Christians may and ought to set up new Churches and practise in them all Gods Ordinances without the consent of a Christian state yea against their peremptory commands and established Laws and in the midst and against the minde of such Churches as they freely acknowledge the true Churches of God say of this Article No Pen can expresse a greater latitude of Opposition against Magistracy and Laws and Churches too then he affirms to be in us Do not I use his own words Print them in a different Character cite him in the Margent which citation you for what ends you know best leave out as you do many others should you not blame Master Weld or your selves rather then me This is but one example of many And whereas according to rule and reason he that affirms that such a Scripture holds forth such a Position must prove it You have a faculty and make much use of it when I shew you where the proof of the Position from the Text alleaged is defective and require you to supply that defect to turn it over to me to prove the contrary As 1 Cor. 16.1 when I say the Churches of Galatia might for ought you alleage to the contrary be combined one to another The substance of your Answer to this passage is Without proof we cannot grant them id est Combinations of Churches in Galatia And that you may more plausibly put the businesse off your selves you leave out the words For ought you alleage to the contrary Finally because charges of you for your indirect dealings without instances to make them good are but weak and Instances of the several kindes would too much enlarge this Epistle I will now omit them And yet one thing being a great wrong to me and to the Truth of God I cannot passe by viz. That you oftimes curtal and clip my Answers and Arguments not onely the Supplement which yet in a large Answer to a little Book in a Twelve-moneths time is scarce allowable being in my close stile very little but also part of the substance and strength of them sometimes folding them up in obscure c. where you know they cannot be read sometimes omitting them with a censure as the seven particulars in Pos 24. lest the Reader had you transcribed them should have expected an Answer sometimes not giving any hint or intimation of any thing omitted For example to omit the other places for if they were all transcribed they would augment this Epistle in sundry pages though my whole Examination your Positions deducted scarcely amounts to thirteen Leaves Out of my Examination of Pos 6. a main passage viz. Gods Covenanting with Abraham did not impose nor suppose an expresse vocal Covenant on Abrahams part c. And out of my Examination of Pos 7. the principal part of my Answer It is not said that they gave themselves to the Church or Churches but to us viz. Paul and Timothy c. And out of my Examination Pos 22. my whole Answer to Revel 4.14 are by an Index Expurgatorius quite blotted out Brethren let me with love and meeknesse reason with you Do not you when you finde the shaddow of such dealing in me much complain of it Is it not one errour under the Sun and a great one too in men and perhaps in some good men that they will strive for victory rather then truth Do not you omit that which you know to be pertinent while you transcribe and largely Answer some thing lesse pertinent You know many will read your Reply that possibly will never see my Answer and would you make them to beleeve that to those Scriptures alleaged in the Position and published by my self I should Answer either nothing at all or no more or otherwise then you set them down that they may account me not onely weak as I am but ridiculous Is this the fault of the Printer who hath committed few other Errata's and left out I suppose none of your Reply or is it your fault who say in your Epistle You think I will confesse your candor Surely Either the Printer or the Publisher have not delt kindly nor candidly but deceitfully with me and the Reader Cannot your cause or some particular of it be maintained without such dealing Is this the way to clear manifestly the Positions and Scriptures to be sufficient pertinent and full of power by leaving out the Examination of them in whole or in part Thus I have signified unto you some of those plain things which at the first reading of your Book appreared to me and have also sent you some Queres prepared and shewed to some of your Brethren and possibly to one or both of you before the coming out of your Reply and little altered since beseeching you to hold out your way as you say you are able by giving not subtile onely but solid Scriptural or Rational Answers to them all as they respectively do require and not to take and leave where you list nor seeing you know Quaestie quaestionem non selvit to return Antiqueries much lesse censures in stead of Answers which notwithstanding if you shall do I shall if God thereunto assist and his cause and the necessity of the Church do require endeavour to Answer when you have first answered these Queres as also rejoyn to your Reply and that within the time Geometrically proportionable to the time you took in Replying with more mildenesse clearnesse and candor then you as by this short Epistle every wise Reader will easily see have used in your Book The God of Truth and Peace be with you and your loving Brother R. H. November 29. 1645. Some Quere's mildely and modestly propounded to such as affect the Congregational-way WHether to be wise and holy above or without the Rule be not folly prophanenesse and presumption Are not unscriptural wayes of procuring and preserving Church-purity as bad as voluntary humility and will-worship Are not humane inventions in Gods worship imposed by a Congregation upon her Members or freely observed by them as opposite to the second Commandment at leastwise in respect of the things themselves as if the Parliament or Assembly had imposed or should impose or observe them Are not such humane inventions as are unjustly pretended to be Gods Ordinances so much the more detestable to God and godly wise men and more unlawful

Doth not Election of and Submission to the same Officers and Ministery ordinarily frequenting the same Ordinances and Worship joynt maintenance of Officers and Ordinances not to speak how considerable ●ohabitation and private Christian Communion is include a sufficient though an implicite covenant or consent which may be justified by holy Writ Whether there be any Precept direct or indirect or President at the founding of the first Churches for a solemn expresse verbal Covenant or Agreement more explicite then this and if not are not they guilty to say no more of strange boldnesse which make it not onely lawful but useful and far better then the said implicite Covenant yea a binding Ordinance of God necessary if not to the being yet to the welbeing strength and purity of the Church Whether there be a Church Covenant in Scripture viz. which not onely in general promiseth Service and Obedience but hath also special relation to Church State and Church Members duties as such as marriage Covenant hath to conjugal duties as such May not the Scripture Covenants viz. God shall be our God c. be taken by two or three though too few to make a Church or by one Family or by persons of several Churches and yet leave them in the state they were in and not make them Members of a distinct Church as Independents Covenants are said to do Whether Subscription to your Confession of Faith be as essentially necessary to Church Constitution as entering into Covenant Is your Confession the very same with the Confessions of other Independent Churches or a Different Is the Confession of your later Churches the very same with the Confession of your former Churches Do your selves esteem all things therein unquestionable Fundamental Articles of Faith seeing you require Subscription to them all alike as a Confession of Faith and that upon pain of Non-Admission Whether there be any Precept or President in Scripture for requiring a Promise before we admit Members that they will not depart without the Churches leave Is this a standing Ordinance or but a Politique invention requisite for the good of Societies so moulded Are not Church Members Liberties much infringed when they can neither dispose of themselves or their children in Service Marriage and Factorship remote from that Church without discovering the causes them thereunto moving which is not alway fit and safe to be done and having Approbation and Dismission from her which sometimes is hard to be got especially for rich and useful Members Whether any Apostle or other in the Primitive times did refuse to admit any known beloever to the Sacrament because he was not to use the new phrase of these times in Church-state or that they enquired of him whether he was convenanted into some particular Congregation and that such a one as they might lawfully hold Communion with Was the Baptism of John and of the Disciples and Apostles of Christ a Seal of Congregation Communion Was Paul the Apostle and the Ennuch Baptized into a particular Congregation did not the ordinary Pastors of Corinth Administer that one Baptism ahd Baptize in the same Body that John Baptist did and that Paul Baptized Crispus and Gains and the houshould of Stephanas into Is Baptism one time a Seal principally of Congregational Communion and other times not and what Scripture is there to warrant such a distinction Whether every Congregation which joyns in Covenant doth or must consist of all or some Christians able to try the sufficiency of an Elder yea fit to discharge that Office Or whether visible Sanctiry without such ability be not sufficient And may this Congregation lawfully without assistance of others unlesse themselves please notwithstanding their apparent inability chuse their own Minister and that one of themselves also which must needs be an Insufficient one May this Congregation also suppose they had a godly learned Pastor proceed against him in case of Errour and Heresie even to Deposition and Excommunication if their weaknesse shall judge it fit And is the said Deposition valid whether just and unjust unlesse the said Church be pleased to recal it to deprive the said Pastor of his Ministerial Authority and Office and is there no remedy in such a case Is it not improper to call them that rule onely by the name of Elders and them that both rule and labour in the Word and Doctrine by a meaner name Ministers Doth the Scripture apply the name of Elders rather to Ruling then to Preaching Elders and if it doth not why should we Are the Ministers in the New Testament called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Ministers or Deacons of the Church or of the people Are they not usually called Ministers of the Lord of God of Christ of the New Testament of the Gospel of the Word c and with reference to their people Elders Rulers Pastors Teachers Overseers Ministers for them c Doth that Expression in the second Epistle to the Corinthians Chap. 4. Vers 5. Our selves your servants wherewith Paul call-himself as well as others 〈◊〉 imply that he received his Authority and Office from the Church did Officiate in their names was censurable by them as a servant by his Master or that he made himself a servant to them as Christ did to his Disciples and as all good Ministers do to their Flocks for their good Are the spirits of the Prophets subject to the people or to the Prophets Is not this subjection of the Spirits of the Prophets to the Prophets viz. Of the fewer to the greater number as well in Synods and Assemblies of Churches or of their Messengers as in particular Congregations Whether these two Propositions Synods or Assemblies of Churches or of their Messengers to say nothing now of their Jurisdiction are Gods Ordinances and Every particular Congregation may yea must enjoy all Gods Ordinances within it self be not crosse and contrary one to another or how are they reconciled according to Scripture grounds Is it any priviledge for Congrogations to subsist every one by her self May they not stand and flourish surer and better in an holy and Brotherly combination and coordinate subjection then in a divided singularity Doth not Communion of particular Churches require and the light of nature and the equity of Scripture rules and examples teach that they may and ought to enter into mutual Consociation or Confederation amongst themselves in Classes and Synods that they may so far as conveniently can be make use of common consent and mutual assistance especially in those things that are of greater moment If the Keyes be given to Beleevers to be exercised by them as Beleevers then are they not given to all beleevers whether in Church Covenant or no Church Members or no If they be given to Church Members as such doth it not then follow that Pastors as Pasors or Elders as Elders have no more power of the Keyes then othher Church Members And

may not women as Church Members challenge power and right in them do they not challenge the same in some of the new Congregations Is not investing Non-Elders with Ministerial power placing the power of the Keys in the Body of the Congregation and complaining of the Elders that rule well for taking too much upon them the sin of Corah Is it not a sin of the New as well as of the Old Testament Doth Jude Historically or Prophetically speak of it If Prophetically When and in whom is it or shall be fulfilled Doth Election without Ordination make the Officer Were the seven chosen by the people Acts 6. Officers by vertue of their Election before the Apostles prayed and imposed hands If so then did not the people rather then the Apostles appoint them over the businesse If Ordination be lesse then Election then why is laying on of hands rather then lifting up of hands in suffrages reckoned amongst the Principles Heb 6. Why is the charge more expresse that Ordination rather then Election should not be suddenly and hastily made Why is the description of persons to be ordained much more large in the Epistles to Timothy and Titus which were to ordain then of persons to be elected in any or all the Epistles written to the Churches to whom such election is conceived to belong Is Ordination of Ministers an act of Presbyterian power or of Church-liberty Did the Apostles which you confesse (a) Reasons of the dissenting Brethren did wherever they came leave the Elders and people to the exercise of that right which be longed to them invest non-Elders with the power of Ordaining Did not Churches wait and not ordain their own Elders though they had as much Authority and knew it as well as Churches now do Did not the Apostles go themselves to ordain Elders in every Church or send some Elders or other to that purpose Doth the Scripture require that every particular Congregation may yea must though she hath neighbour-Congregations to assist which is our case alone ordain her own Elders What one Elder in Scripture was ordained by those that were onely of that particular Congregation where he was to officiate What may be the reason that the Apostle which did all things fitly writing to so many Churches in each of which was a particular Eldership did not so largely if at all set down Rules for Ordination as in the Epistles to Timothy and Titus Did the Presbytery that ordained Timothy consist onely of one particular Congregation and of what Congregation and how is it proved Was not every Apostle as also Timothy and Titus as it were an Eldership of the Churches extraordinarily combined in one man When the Apostles joyned with other ●lders in Ordination under what notion did they joyn as Elders of sundry Churches or onely as Co-elders of that particular Congregation If under the later notion what did they adde unto them the Elders of a Church being but Three or Four having as much power as if by addition of Two or Three they were made Five or Six May we not grant in some cases that Supreme Civil power suppose in executing one that had murderer his father and attempted to murder his mother as well as Ecclesiastical may be exercised in one Congregation yea in one family if it be in a wildernesse when it can have no assistance in Government without having the least thought that in ordinary eases every Congregation or Family ought to be Independent in Ecclesiastical or Civil matters Ordinary Elders imposing hands on Apostles or Apostolike men as you say the Teachers of Anttoch ordained Paul an Apostle Act. 13.1 2 did they set him apart to officiate onely in one their own Congregation and not in other Churches For example not in Rome to which Paul writing calls himself with reference to that Ordination 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an Apostle separated c. Is there not as many precepts or presidents for admitting to the Sacrament known Christians of no set Congregation which you so much boggle at as of admitting the members of other Churches and their children which you commonly practice Do not Elders receive their power and commission for the whole Church of Christ and may they not having a Call preach in any Congregation administer the Sacrament to any Christian yea vote in any Synod as the Scotish Divines by consent do vote in our Assembly Doth not communion of Churches bring communion of Offices and Officers Else how can a Minister administer the Sacrament as an Officer for as a gifted man he cannot dispense it to men of another Church by vertue of the said communion of Churches And if so why may not an Elder of other Churches in Jurisdiction If recommendation be as it were a dismission by your own Principles differing not really but onely in time may not a Minister recommended that is dismissed for a time act Ministerially in another Congregation may not the Maior of one Corporation by consent of all parties interested act authoritatively out of the said Corporation as the Maior of London is Bayliff of Southwark And may not the Colonels of Lancashire your own similitudes by like consent govern and rule the Souldiery of Cheshire Is not the whole Church of God one Corporation one City ut supra And may not then the Aldermen and Officers notwithstanding their several Wards Limits Companies joyn together in a Court of Common counsel for the Government of the City May a Pastor as a Pastor pray for the Universal Church or no Is it a divine or but an humane Institution that Ministers should be maintained by Lords-day collections If humane can any man which holds all Humane Institutions unlawful with good conscience offer at those Collections If you say it is divine where is the warrant for it Dare you determine it as certain or do you but dispute it as probable Do not those Independent Ministers which enjoy Church lands and receive Tythes or compositions for them or yeerly half yeerly quarterly stipends hold these ways of maintenance as lawful as Lords-day-collection By what Scripture prove ye that it is the duty of any Christians that are not of your Church nor ever were but are by you excluded out of it possibly because they will not take your Covenant or subscribe your Confession or the like to contribute to your maintenance seeing you take no charge of them nor so much as preach to them as Pastors Have you from Christ any power to receive maintenance from such May a Church to save charges make it a rule or constant practice to chuse no Ruling-elders though never so fit and able but such as are able to maintain themselves Doth not that Text 1 Tim. 5.17 hold forth the maintenance notwithstanding the poverty of those times as well as the lawfulnesse of Ruling elders Whether Moderators and Presidents of Synods and Church-assemblies Assessors Scribes and Registers of Church-proceedings to say nothing of ringing Bells to