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those_o congregation_n in_o all_o weighty_a matter_n and_o great_a case_n that_o fall_v out_o those_o precept_n of_o obey_v your_o elder_n and_o they_o that_o be_v over_o you_o reach_v to_o all_o the_o elder_n as_o well_o as_o to_o those_o that_o particular_o and_o ordinary_o preach_v to_o they_o and_o however_o it_o be_v true_a such_o place_n be_v especial_o understand_v of_o they_o yet_o not_o of_o they_o only_o and_o alone_o as_o exclude_v other_o as_o your_o argument_n carry_v it_o but_z including_z other_o who_o be_v over_o they_o too_o and_o to_o answer_v you_o by_o your_o own_o instance_n give_v of_o servant_n obey_v your_o own_o governor_n as_o by_o virtue_n of_o that_o text_n particular_a servant_n be_v to_o obey_v their_o own_o master_n so_o by_o the_o same_o text_n each_o particular_a servant_n and_o all_o of_o they_o together_o of_o such_o a_o company_n and_o hall_n in_o the_o thing_n and_o rule_n of_o their_o call_n for_o the_o public_a good_a of_o that_o society_n they_o be_v to_o obey_v and_o be_v subject_a to_o the_o whole_a company_n namely_o the_o particular_a master_n of_o other_o servant_n as_o to_o their_o own_o master_n yea_o and_o to_o submit_v to_o the_o common_a order_n and_o good_a rule_n of_o such_o a_o hall_n and_o corporation_n though_o their_o particular_a master_n do_v not_o vote_n for_o but_o against_o they_o 3._o those_o ruler_n who_o be_v of_o the_o presbytery_n be_v not_o foreign_a nor_o extrinsicall_a to_o the_o congregation_n but_o intrinsicall_a and_o natural_a as_o well_o as_o their_o particular_a elder_n so_o that_o another_o without_o themselves_o do_v not_o bear_v rule_n over_o they_o but_o all_o of_o they_o together_o by_o common_a consent_n do_v rule_v every_o one_o which_o be_v a_o most_o mild_a and_o free_a form_n of_o church_n government_n for_o the_o proof_n of_o which_o i_o shall_v not_o enlarge_v but_o refer_v you_o for_o satisfaction_n to_o what_o be_v say_v to_o this_o point_n both_o by_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n and_o by_o some_o church_n from_o beyond_o the_o 25._o sea_n in_o their_o letter_n upon_o occasion_n of_o your_o apology_n 4._o it_o be_v a_o fallacious_a way_n of_o reason_v from_o the_o economical_a relation_n and_o government_n of_o husband_n over_o wife_n and_o father_n over_o child_n and_o master_n over_o servant_n and_o their_o subjection_n and_o obedience_n to_o husband_n etc._n etc._n unto_o the_o ecclesiastical_a and_o political_a because_o it_o be_v not_o to_o speak_v ad_fw-la idem_fw-la for_o in_o each_o of_o these_o the_o way_n of_o government_n be_v different_a for_o instance_n in_o those_o economical_a relation_n a_o woman_n can_v have_v but_o one_o husband_n one_o man_n can_v be_v but_o her_o husband_n and_o one_o man_n a_o father_n and_o the_o wife_n and_o child_n can_v pelinquish_v they_o diâ—…avow_v they_o though_o very_o bad_a nor_o deny_v those_o duty_n they_o owe_v they_o in_o those_o relation_n though_o censure_v by_o the_o church_n but_o they_o be_v to_o obey_v they_o which_o yet_o hold_v not_o in_o the_o member_n of_o a_o particular_a congregation_n to_o elder_n and_o minister_n that_o be_v unworthy_a and_o excommunicate_v that_o the_o member_n must_v be_v subject_a to_o they_o the_o royalist_n that_o argue_v so_o from_o that_o subjection_n and_o obedience_n which_o child_n owe_v their_o father_n to_o subject_n subjection_n and_o obedience_n to_o prince_n and_o the_o hierarchicall_a man_n that_o argue_v from_o what_o child_n owe_v to_o natural_a parent_n though_o wicked_a and_o ungodly_a to_o what_o the_o people_n owe_v to_o wicked_a minister_n be_v answer_v at_o large_a and_o you_o know_v what_o mr_n robinson_n and_o many_o of_o your_o way_n say_v to_o that_o now_o the_o same_o will_v serve_v to_o answer_v your_o comparison_n that_o the_o place_n hold_v not_o alike_o between_o the_o people_n and_o the_o elder_n and_o the_o wife_n and_o their_o husband_n mr_n baynes_n answer_v in_o the_o last_o page_n of_o his_o diocesan_n trial_n that_o which_o be_v object_v touch_v pastor_n and_o father_n that_o the_o similitude_n hold_v not_o in_o all_o thing_n parent_n and_o shepherd_n be_v absolute_o parent_n and_o shepherd_n be_v they_o good_a or_o evil_a but_o spiritual_a parent_n be_v no_o long_o so_o than_o they_o do_v according_o behave_v themselves_o 5._o the_o very_a instance_n you_o give_v of_o wife_n obey_v your_o own_o husband_n and_o servant_n your_o own_o governor_n do_v not_o therefore_o only_o tie_v they_o to_o civil_a subjection_n and_o obedience_n to_o husband_n and_o master_n exempt_n they_o from_o subjection_n to_o any_o other_o but_o they_o be_v subject_a to_o the_o magistrate_n in_o the_o commonwealth_n and_o to_o common-lawe_n notwithstanding_o so_o neither_o do_v the_o scripture_n obey_v your_o elder_n etc._n etc._n suppose_v the_o full_a latitude_n of_o those_o scripture_n be_v of_o the_o elder_n of_o particular_a congregation_n forbid_v or_o exempt_a man_n from_o that_o ecclesiastical_a subjection_n and_o obedience_n which_o concern_v they_o as_o they_o stand_v in_o relation_n to_o the_o community_n to_o the_o three_o reason_n hint_v for_o yourselves_o and_o against_o the_o reform_a church_n that_o the_o elder_n of_o other_o congregation_n shall_v have_v power_n and_o rule_v over_o church_n which_o they_o do_v not_o teach_v and_o feed_v ordinary_o by_o virtue_n of_o those_o forementioned_a precept_n be_v to_o you_o a_o question_n etc._n etc._n i_o answer_v suppose_v three_o or_o four_o congregation_n in_o one_o great_a town_n shall_v have_v minister_n in_o common_a to_o teach_v and_o feed_v they_o ordinary_o as_o in_o holland_n will_v you_o in_o such_o a_o case_n yield_v to_o a_o presbyterial_a combination_n if_o you_o say_v you_o will_v than_o the_o case_n be_v determine_v for_o we_o and_o thus_o i_o judge_v it_o be_v in_o the_o act_n of_o the_o apostle_n in_o primitive_a church_n but_o if_o you_o answer_v you_o will_v not_o yield_v to_o such_o a_o classical_a government_n than_o i_o reply_v it_o be_v not_o for_o want_v of_o such_o minister_n teach_v you_o and_o feed_v ordinary_o that_o you_o will_v not_o obey_v but_o upon_o some_o other_o ground_n and_o then_o this_o argument_n be_v lose_v second_o i_o answer_v your_o roll_a elder_n do_v not_o feed_v nor_o teach_v you_o ordinary_o but_o only_o govern_v you_o and_o yet_o by_o virtue_n of_o those_o forementioned_a precept_n you_o obey_v they_o and_o be_v subject_a to_o they_o so_o that_o this_o be_v no_o good_a argument_n against_o the_o lawfulness_n of_o have_v power_n and_o authority_n over_o those_o who_o man_n teach_v not_o ordinary_o for_o than_o what_o become_v of_o the_o rule_v elder_n in_o the_o church_n who_o be_v neither_o pastor_n nor_o teacher_n to_o the_o four_o reason_n draw_v from_o corporation_n who_o have_v the_o power_n and_o privilege_n of_o life_n and_o death_n within_o themselves_o which_o kind_n of_o power_n you_o will_v have_v i_o answer_v you_o can_v frame_v a_o good_a argunment_n from_o corporation_n and_o civil_a power_n to_o body_n ecclesiastical_a and_o spiritual_a power_n and_o i_o may_v give_v you_o the_o many_o difference_n allege_v by_o yourselves_o between_o civil_a power_n and_o ecclesiastical_a and_o the_o different_a manner_n of_o dispensation_n but_o i_o must_v not_o enlarge_v here_o only_o refer_v you_o for_o this_o to_o separat_fw-la mr_n robinson_n church_n mr_n burrough_n and_o theol._n dr_n ames_n 2._o corporation_n go_v according_a to_o the_o law_n of_o the_o land_n and_o to_o their_o charter_n agree_v upon_o and_o make_v in_o parliament_n they_o make_v not_o themselves_o a_o corporation_n nor_o go_v not_o according_a to_o private_a rule_n and_o order_n to_o pass_v sentence_n of_o death_n etc._n etc._n but_o be_v rule_v though_o they_o have_v officer_n as_o major_a and_o alderman_n by_o the_o law_n of_o the_o land_n and_o so_o go_v they_o may_v more_o safe_o have_v a_o power_n within_o themselves_o but_o your_o particular_a congregation_n set_v up_o yourselves_o without_o leave_n of_o magistrate_n or_o minister_n not_o proceed_v upon_o common_a rule_n of_o government_n in_o sentence_n of_o excommunication_n etc._n etc._n agree_v by_o synod_n but_o only_o upon_o your_o own_o will_n and_o private_a rule_n which_o you_o have_v fancy_v be_v lay_v down_o in_o scripture_n 3._o corporation_n though_o they_o judge_v their_o member_n and_o pass_v sentence_n of_o life_n and_o death_n within_o themselves_o yet_o sometime_o nay_o often_o in_o great_a case_n and_o offence_n their_o inhabitant_n be_v try_v and_o sentence_n pass_v upon_o they_o in_o other_o court_n of_o justice_n and_o that_o when_o they_o will_v proceed_v against_o they_o yet_o the_o matter_n be_v carry_v high_a to_o be_v try_v if_o you_o will_v grant_v this_o in_o the_o corporation_n to_o your_o congregation_n that_o assembly_n and_o synod_n may_v judge_v and_o pass_v sentence_n upon_o your_o member_n as_o oft_o
new_a churchway_n as_o that_o he_o will_v not_o be_v celebrato_fw-la marry_v by_o minister_n but_o defer_v marriage_n till_o he_o come_v into_o holland_n where_o present_o after_o his_o come_n he_o be_v marry_v not_o in_o the_o way_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n there_o but_o by_o the_o magistrate_n according_a to_o the_o way_n of_o the_o brownist_n as_o it_o be_v lay_v down_o in_o robinson_n apology_n 5._o i_o ask_v what_o some_o of_o you_o who_o name_n be_v to_o this_o apology_n with_o other_o minister_n of_o your_o way_n who_o be_v now_o with_o god_n with_o some_o gentleman_n do_v at_o missendon_n in_o buckingham-shiere_n the_o winter_n and_o spring_n before_o you_o go_v into_o holland_n and_o whether_o that_o company_n which_o go_v over_o with_o you_o into_o holland_n be_v not_o engage_v in_o the_o churchway_n and_o principle_n before_o you_o leave_v england_n and_o i_o ask_v how_o long_o it_o be_v when_o once_o you_o come_v to_o viana_n where_o you_o settle_v for_o a_o time_n before_o you_o practise_v your_o churchway_n whether_o you_o take_v any_o long_a time_n of_o searchingout_a what_o be_v the_o first_o apostolic_a direction_n before_o you_o fall_v to_o the_o practice_n of_o it_o i_o deny_v not_o but_o you_o may_v add_v something_n to_o your_o churchway_n after_o your_o come_n over_o and_o have_v you_o stay_v there_o till_o this_o time_n you_o have_v add_v with_o a_o witness_n of_o which_o i_o shall_v speak_v more_o afterward_o 6._o if_o mr_n bridge_n carry_v not_o the_o positive_a part_n over_o with_o he_o i_o ask_v whether_o upon_o the_o change_n of_o the_o air_n present_o after_o his_o come_n over_o without_o any_o great_a time_n of_o search_v out_o what_o be_v the_o first_o apostoilque_fw-fr direction_n he_o be_v not_o admit_v a_o member_n in_o the_o churchway_n and_o then_o choose_v one_o of_o the_o minister_n of_o that_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n and_o whether_o mr_n burrough_n fly_v over_o for_o word_n speak_v be_v not_o quick_o admit_v into_o the_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n so_o that_o if_o these_o instance_n be_v true_a here_o be_v no_o great_a time_n of_o inquire_v and_o view_v after_o exile_n before_o you_o fall_v to_o practice_v nor_o no_o great_a time_n allot_v to_o search_v out_o what_o be_v the_o first_o apostolic_a direction_n pattern_n and_o example_n of_o those_o primitive_a church_n record_v in_o the_o new-testament_n and_o to_o put_v it_o past_a question_n that_o you_o be_v resolve_v of_o your_o chuâ—…-way_n before_o you_o leave_v england_n at_o least_o mr_n goodwin_n and_o mr_n nye_n i_o have_v a_o letter_n by_o i_o under_o mr_n archer_n hand_n the_o pastor_n of_o their_o church_n date_v septemb_n 12_o 1637._o which_o be_v about_o six_o week_n after_o land_v for_o in_o another_o letter_n from_o he_o to_o i_o he_o write_v i_o land_v july_n 27._o wherein_o he_o write_v thus_o in_o way_n of_o a_o answer_n to_o a_o passage_n in_o a_o letter_n of_o my_o date_a august_n 23._o concern_v his_o be_v in_o the_o churchway_n as_o for_o your_o judgement_n and_o the_o work_n you_o be_v about_o i_o hear_v of_o it_o before_o and_o have_v not_o so_o long_o stand_v by_o afflict_a sober_o and_o conscientious_o ta_o search_n out_o the_o truth_n but_o have_v thorough_o see_v into_o the_o bottom_n of_o it_o in_o such_o a_o measure_n as_o i_o be_o confident_a that_o in_o the_o end_n you_o will_v all_o come_v to_o we_o and_o not_o we_o to_o you_o and_o in_o the_o same_o letter_n he_o speak_v of_o all_o with_o he_o to_o be_v of_o the_o same_o judgement_n which_o full_o show_v their_o engagement_n before_o they_o come_v to_o holland_n but_o as_o to_o that_o dilemma_n whether_o before_o your_o go_v into_o holland_n or_o whether_o afterward_o you_o fall_v upon_o the_o positive_a part_n of_o church-worship_n and_o government_n it_o matter_n not_o much_o in_o reference_n to_o that_o which_o follow_v upon_o it_o for_o even_o that_o which_o be_v grant_v by_o you_o without_o any_o question_n namely_o your_o 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prelatical_a faction_n as_o your-selve_n you_o may_v more_o impartial_o and_o without_o preingagement_n have_v see_v the_o truth_n for_o it_o be_v too_o often_o see_v that_o necessity_n be_v ingens_fw-la telum_fw-la and_o draw_v aside_o often_o the_o judgement_n and_o practice_n of_o good_a and_o wise_a man_n and_o so_o may_v do_v you_o and_o therefore_o you_o must_v pardon_v i_o if_o i_o question_v whether_o in_o your_o enquiry_n into_o the_o first_o apostolic_a direction_n you_o look_v upon_o the_o word_n of_o christ_n as_o impartial_o and_o unprejudiced_o as_o man_n make_v of_o flesh_n and_o blood_n be_v like_a to_o do_v in_o any_o juncture_n of_o time_n that_o may_v fall_v out_o i_o judge_v the_o reformer_n in_o the_o reform_a church_n of_o geneva_n scotland_n etc._n etc._n upon_o many_o reason_n some_o 19_o whereof_o be_v hint_v by_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n be_v like_a to_o look_v more_o impartial_o and_o without_o prejudice_n upon_o the_o word_n of_o christ_n than_o you_o they_o be_v not_o force_v to_o fall_v on_o their_o church-government_n by_o a_o necessity_n of_o exile_n but_o have_v learn_v it_o from_o the_o word_n some_o of_o they_o suffer_v exile_n for_o it_o and_o other_o resolve_v to_o hazard_v the_o utmost_a for_o it_o not_o upon_o every_o fear_n and_o imagination_n forsake_v their_o people_n and_o country_n but_o resolve_v to_o do_v the_o will_n of_o god_n and_o to_o promote_v his_o cause_n in_o their_o own_o country_n what_o ever_o it_o cost_v they_o and_o beside_o the_o first_o reformer_n i_o believe_v there_o be_v many_o in_o these_o time_n who_o study_v these_o point_n have_v look_v more_o impartial_o upon_o church-government_n and_o discipline_n and_o be_v free_a from_o engagement_n and_o worldly_a respect_n than_o yourselves_o and_o when_o i_o weigh_v the_o reason_n intimate_v of_o your_o impartiality_n and_o free_a guidance_n by_o the_o spirit_n i_o be_o no_o way_n satisfy_v but_o they_o serve_v all_o to_o 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that_o you_o express_v so_o much_o and_o act_v in_o the_o virtue_n of_o it_o nay_o even_o to_o judge_v they_o antichristian_a there_o be_v some_o passage_n in_o one_o letter_n more_o especial_o among_o other_o write_v by_o mr_n bridge_n to_o his_o love_a friend_n in_o norwich_n mr_n henry_n king_n mr_n toft_n mr_n smith_n mr_n rayner_n mr._n map_n the_o substance_n of_o which_o letter_n to_o letter_n they_o be_v not_o to_o be_v content_a with_o the_o ordinance_n of_o hear_v but_o to_o look_v out_o after_o the_o platform_n of_o government_n leave_v by_o christ_n and_o his_o apostle_n by_o elder_n pastor_n teacher_n deacon_n and_o widow_n and_o to_o consider_v that_o every_o church_n have_v the_o power_n within_o itself_o and_o be_v not_o subject_a to_o one_o officer_n or_o to_o another_o congregation_n but_o to_o the_o whole_a body_n and_o to_o that_o whereof_o the_o member_n be_v a_o part_n and_o then_o mr_n bridge_n fall_v upon_o episcopal_a government_n under_o which_o these_o 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i_o conceal_v the_o substance_n of_o which_o letter_n be_v to_o have_v he_o consider_v whether_o he_o may_v live_v without_o all_o the_o ordinance_n if_o they_o be_v any_o where_o to_o be_v have_v or_o live_v in_o danger_n of_o daily_a defilement_n and_o there_o be_v one_o thing_n which_o together_o with_o these_o he_o desire_v he_o to_o think_v upon_o namely_o what_o that_o state_n and_o condition_n be_v wherein_o we_o shall_v enjoy_v the_o ordinance_n we_o shall_v call_v nothing_o the_o mean_n of_o salvation_n or_o ordinance_n but_o what_o god_n have_v appoint_v to_o his_o church_n a_o church_n be_v christ_n body_n it_o consist_v of_o holy_a member_n in_o show_n at_o least_o join_v together_o to_o christ_n as_o to_o a_o head_n and_o as_o there_o be_v a_o bond_n whereby_o we_o be_v invisible_o join_v so_o be_v there_o a_o bond_n to_o he_o visible_o ceremony_n be_v nothing_o in_o regard_n
true_a church_n namely_o your_o see_v that_o if_o you_o have_v account_v our_o church_n no_o true_a church_n that_o by_o the_o same_o reason_n the_o church_n abroad_o in_o scotland_n holland_n etc._n etc._n yet_o for_o their_o mixture_n must_v in_o like_a manner_n be_v judge_v no_o church_n also_o i_o answer_v it_o be_v no_o conclude_v argument_n m._n robinson_n who_o be_v quick-sighted_a and_o live_v in_o holland_n long_o and_o see_v their_o mixture_n yet_o acknowledge_v those_o church_n true_a but_o deny_v we_o to_o be_v true_a upon_o other_o ground_n beside_o the_o mixture_n and_o it_o be_v evident_a your_o reason_n be_v insufficient_a for_o if_o your_o description_n of_o a_o visible_a church_n be_v only_o upon_o difference_n in_o the_o point_n of_o mixture_n and_o your_o ground_n of_o separation_n only_o upon_o mix_a communion_n than_o your_o reason_n have_v some_o weight_n in_o it_o but_o you_o know_v your_o exception_n be_v many_o against_o our_o church_n which_o lie_v not_o against_o the_o reform_a church_n but_o it_o be_v strange_a to_o i_o if_o you_o be_v so_o good_a at_o consequence_n that_o you_o see_v and_o can_v not_o but_o see_v when_o there_o be_v no_o necessity_n of_o see_v you_o can_v not_o see_v the_o necessary_a consequence_n of_o your_o principle_n about_o a_o church_n and_o ministry_n nay_o not_o see_v even_o your_o contradiction_n for_o let_v a_o man_n but_o take_v your_o own_o position_n and_o assertion_n concern_v a_o true_a visible_a church_n and_o the_o true_a call_n of_o minister_n and_o lay_v together_o your_o quarrel_v with_o we_o and_o leave_v we_o upon_o those_o ground_n because_o we_o have_v no_o such_o church_n and_o minister_n and_o yeâ—…_n to_o affirm_v that_o multitude_n of_o our_o parochial_a church_n be_v true_a church_n and_o certain_o however_o you_o who_o be_v scholar_n may_v be_v such_o good_a logician_n to_o make_v such_o distinction_n to_o salve_v all_o as_o you_o conceit_a yet_o your_o people_n can_v not_o but_o they_o from_o your_o principle_n and_o position_n about_o church_n ministry_n worship_n and_o government_n have_v judge_v we_o no_o true_a church_n nor_o true_a minister_n but_o have_v wonder_v at_o this_o sincere_a profession_n of_o you_o before_o god_n and_o the_o world_n concern_v our_o church_n and_o minister_n say_v they_o understand_v you_o otherwise_o and_o they_o be_v much_o deceive_v if_o you_o hold_v not_o otherwise_o at_o first_o though_o now_o you_o express_v yourselves_o after_o this_o manner_n and_o i_o can_v hardly_o believe_v have_v you_o make_v always_o and_o frequent_o such_o profession_n of_o our_o church_n and_o minister_n and_o of_o keep_v communion_n with_o they_o as_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n that_o ever_o so_o many_o have_v fall_v off_o to_o your_o way_n but_o thus_o it_o be_v in_o all_o the_o way_n of_o error_n man_n by_o sit_n will_v express_v thing_n as_o other_o man_n do_v who_o be_v orthodox_n but_o yet_o in_o a_o sense_n of_o their_o own_o to_o avoid_v exception_n and_o that_o they_o may_v be_v think_v to_o hold_v as_o other_o do_v thereby_o the_o more_o to_o draw_v and_o work_v some_o man_n off_o to_o their_o way_n when_o yet_o in_o the_o common_a sense_n and_o understanding_n of_o the_o point_n they_o hold_v otherwise_o as_o the_o socinian_o say_v they_o hold_v christ_n god_n and_o call_v he_o so_o but_o in_o a_o sense_n of_o their_o own_o and_o yet_o deny_v it_o in_o the_o orthodox_n sense_n so_o pelagian_n and_o arminian_n will_v extol_v the_o grace_n of_o god_n and_o that_o a_o man_n can_v do_v nothing_o without_o it_o and_o yet_o in_o that_o sense_n wherein_o the_o controversy_n be_v they_o set_v up_o freewill_n above_o the_o grace_n of_o god_n and_o so_o antinomian_o will_v say_v they_o do_v not_o deny_v the_o law_n of_o god_n and_o yet_o in_o the_o sense_n controvert_v be_v flat_a against_o it_o and_o so_o the_o papist_n will_v say_v they_o hold_v and_o look_v to_o be_v save_v by_o christ_n as_o well_o as_o any_o protestant_a though_o it_o be_v well_o know_v there_o be_v a_o great_a difference_n between_o they_o in_o the_o point_n of_o justification_n so_o you_o and_o many_o of_o your_o way_n in_o a_o sense_n of_o your_o own_o give_v we_o good_a word_n and_o say_v we_o have_v true_a church_n and_o true_a ministry_n and_o yet_o in_o the_o sense_n of_o the_o controversy_n you_o teach_v flat_a contrary_n as_o do_v appear_v both_o by_o print_a tractâ—…tes_n and_o by_o manuscript_n and_o many_o practice_n as_o to_o that_o profession_n in_o this_o section_n that_o in_o the_o time_n when_o the_o church_n of_o england_n be_v most_o either_o actual_o overspread_v with_o defilement_n or_o in_o the_o great_a danger_n thereof_o that_o we_o both_o do_v and_o will_v bold_a a_o communion_n with_o they_o as_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n i_o answer_v what_o do_v i_o hear_v word_n when_o i_o see_v deed_n so_o contrary_a how_o can_v i_o believe_v this_o profession_n that_o you_o will_v hold_v communion_n with_o the_o church_n of_o england_n as_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n under_o their_o great_a defilement_n when_o as_o you_o have_v never_o hold_v communion_n with_o any_o of_o they_o in_o the_o time_n of_o their_o great_a reformation_n and_o purity_n in_o this_o three_o year_n last_o since_o your_o come_n over_o wherein_o we_o have_v be_v so_o free_a from_o pollution_n in_o worship_n and_o since_o that_o in_o so_o many_o church_n in_o london_n there_o have_v be_v the_o total_a lay_v aside_o of_o prescribe_a form_n of_o prayer_n and_o that_o great_a care_n to_o keep_v away_o both_o ignorant_a and_o profane_a person_n which_o of_o you_o five_o have_v receive_v the_o lord_n supper_n in_o any_o of_o these_o true_a church_n and_o body_n of_o christ_n i_o never_o can_v learn_v that_o any_o of_o you_o five_o nor_o any_o of_o the_o member_n of_o your_o church_n have_v communicate_v with_o we_o i_o can_v tell_v you_o of_o the_o add_v to_o your_o church_n assembly_n great_a number_n since_o and_o of_o 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the_o church_n and_o no_o other_o sin_n to_o be_v the_o subject_n of_o that_o dreadful_a sentence_n in_o this_o section_n you_o give_v we_o a_o narration_n of_o the_o way_n and_o practice_n of_o your_o church_n wherein_o in_o the_o beginning_n you_o tell_v the_o reader_n we_o give_v this_o brief_a and_o general_a account_n but_o how_o much_o better_o have_v it_o be_v and_o more_o proper_a to_o have_v give_v a_o full_a and_o particular_a account_n here_o then_o in_o your_o other_o part_n about_o new-england_n and_o the_o reform_a church_n in_o holland_n a_o full_a and_o particular_a account_n of_o the_o way_n and_o practice_n of_o your_o church_n have_v answer_v more_o the_o nature_n of_o such_o a_o narration_n and_o will_v have_v satisfy_v all_o man_n but_o why_o do_v you_o in_o the_o most_o material_a part_n give_v such_o a_o brief_a and_o general_a account_n know_v that_o under_o brevity_n and_o generality_n there_o lie_v much_o mistake_n and_o deceit_n and_o let_v i_o tell_v you_o 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bridge_n inform_v i_o and_o of_o the_o exercise_v of_o prophecy_n in_o mr_n sympson_n church_n at_o rotterdam_n as_o well_o as_o at_o arnheim_n i_o can_v out_o of_o manuscript_n produce_v how_o argument_n be_v frame_v to_o draw_v away_o people_n from_o our_o church_n upon_o this_o ground_n as_o be_v defective_a in_o some_o ordinance_n namely_o prophesy_v and_o beside_o prophesy_v i_o propound_v it_o to_o you_o whether_o some_o of_o you_o have_v not_o hold_v out_o some_o other_o public_a worship_n than_o the_o reform_a church_n hold_v namely_o hymn_n and_o anoint_v the_o sick_a member_n of_o the_o church_n with_o oil_n as_o also_o whether_o a_o little_a before_o your_o come_n over_o into_o england_n some_o member_n of_o the_o church_n of_o arnheim_n do_v not_o propound_v the_o holy_a kiss_n or_o the_o kiss_n of_o love_n to_o be_v practise_v by_o church-member_n nay_o whether_o by_o some_o person_n in_o that_o church_n be_v it_o not_o begin_v to_o be_v use_v and_o practise_v and_o in_o 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shall_v have_v lay_v down_o particular_o as_o wherein_o and_o how_o far_o you_o agree_v with_o the_o reform_a church_n so_o also_o wherein_o you_o depart_v from_o they_o namely_o you_o shall_v have_v show_v in_o what_o you_o practise_v more_o than_o they_o do_v and_o wherein_o you_o practise_v short_a of_o they_o and_o in_o the_o thing_n you_o practise_v with_o they_o yet_o how_o you_o differ_v in_o the_o manner_n of_o they_o but_o to_o return_v to_o that_o of_o censure_n reform_a church_n practice_v beside_o admonition_n and_o before_o they_o come_v to_o excommunication_n that_o which_o be_v call_v by_o divine_n abstentio_fw-la à _fw-la sacracaena_fw-la but_o you_o do_v not_o so_o but_o conceal_v this_o but_o brethren_n why_o shall_v you_o not_o practice_v this_o especial_o consider_v how_o according_a to_o your_o principle_n the_o church_n be_v to_o receive_v the_o lord_n supper_n every_o lord_n day_n now_o suppose_v some_o member_n commit_v a_o great_a sin_n on_o the_o saturday_n 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also_o that_o the_o rule_n which_o we_o give_v up_o our_o judgement_n unto_o to_o judge_v those_o we_o receive_v in_o among_o we_o by_o be_v of_o that_o latitude_n as_o will_v take_v in_o any_o member_n of_o christ_n the_o mean_a in_o who_o there_o may_v be_v suppose_v to_o be_v the_o least_o of_o christ_n and_o indeed_o such_o and_o no_o other_o at_o all_o the_o godly_a in_o this_o kingdom_n carry_v in_o their_o bosom_n to_o judge_v other_o by_o we_o take_v measure_n of_o no_o man_n holiness_n by_o his_o opinion_n whether_o concur_v with_o we_o or_o adverse_a unto_o we_o and_o church_n make_v up_o of_o such_o we_o be_v sure_o no_o protestant_n can_v but_o approve_v of_o as_o touch_v the_o member_n of_o it_o to_o be_v a_o true_a church_n with_o which_o communion_n may_v be_v hold_v and_o have_v answer_v general_o i_o come_v now_o to_o the_o particular_n bring_v to_o make_v this_o three_o principle_n good_a and_o shall_v show_v how_o little_a there_o be_v in_o they_o to_o make_v good_a 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of_o he_o i_o shall_v not_o deny_v it_o but_o as_o for_o mr_n baynes_n diocesan_n trial_n which_o be_v the_o only_a book_n i_o ever_o hear_v of_o wherein_o he_o handle_v these_o point_n he_o do_v in_o the_o three_o question_n give_v the_o ecclesiastical_a power_n and_o the_o exercise_n of_o it_o to_o a_o unite_a multitude_n of_o presbyter_n in_o which_o book_n howsoever_o as_o intend_v his_o book_n against_o diocesan_n bishop_n and_o diocesan_n church_n to_o who_o all_o presbyter_n and_o church_n stand_v in_o subjection_n and_o subordination_n he_o plead_v against_o they_o for_o the_o power_n of_o the_o particular_a elder_n in_o the_o several_a congregation_n yet_o as_o against_o the_o reform_a church_n practice_v namely_o of_o a_o presbyterial_a church_n consist_v of_o many_o particular_a congregation_n and_o rule_v by_o the_o elder_n of_o several_a congregation_n combine_v he_o plead_v not_o but_o express_o in_o answer_n make_v to_o those_o two_o objection_n from_o the_o church_n 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of_o
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to_o a_o community_n of_o church_n and_o if_o that_o be_v your_o meaning_n you_o shall_v be_v independent_a enough_o and_o then_o further_o i_o demand_v of_o you_o how_o you_o can_v use_v those_o phrase_n of_o not_o claim_v a_o power_n to_o be_v subject_a to_o none_o other_o i_o confess_v you_o may_v better_o use_v those_o word_n of_o give_v account_n hold_v counsel_v and_o advise_v by_o sister-churche_n but_o as_o for_o that_o phrase_n of_o subject_v to_o none_o other_o i_o understand_v it_o not_o what_o censure_n will_v your_o church_n subject_n unto_o from_o other_o church_n will_v they_o yield_v to_o the_o deposition_n of_o their_o minister_n excommunication_n of_o their_o member_n etc._n etc._n or_o how_o can_v there_o be_v any_o subjection_n to_o other_o church_n in_o your_o principle_n the_o phrase_n be_v take_v proper_o and_o usual_o when_o as_o all_o along_o you_o plead_v against_o authoritative_a presbyterial_a power_n so_o oft_o express_v in_o page_n 15_o 16._o and_o be_v 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apology_n be_v contain_v the_o four_o and_o five_o of_o those_o five_o forementioned_a head_n unto_o which_o i_o refer_v all_o i_o shall_v answer_v to_o what_o you_o say_v upon_o your_o three_o and_o last_o instance_n about_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n in_o the_o church_n the_o scope_n of_o which_o four_o head_n be_v to_o answer_v and_o take_v off_o a_o common_a objection_n bring_v against_o your_o way_n the_o strength_n of_o which_o answer_n be_v make_v up_o of_o those_o part_n and_o stand_v in_o these_o particular_n first_o in_o lay_v down_o your_o own_o principle_n which_o you_o hold_v in_o such_o a_o case_n second_o your_o practice_n according_a to_o those_o principle_n occasion_v upon_o a_o offence_n commit_v in_o one_o of_o your_o church_n which_o story_n you_o brief_o relate_v three_o the_o success_n and_o effectualness_n of_o your_o practice_n according_a to_o your_o principle_n illustrate_v by_o a_o instance_n now_o for_o that_o common_a
and_o restore_v mr_n ward_n agree_v upon_o be_v it_o not_o upon_o the_o news_n of_o the_o parliament_n and_o the_o probability_n of_o the_o revolution_n of_o thing_n and_o i_o propound_v this_o question_n because_o mr_n bâ—…rroughs_n who_o come_v in_o m._n ward_n place_n after_o his_o deposition_n come_v back_o to_o england_n but_o at_o the_o begin_n of_o the_o parliament_n and_o till_o he_o come_v or_o be_v resolve_v to_o come_v it_o be_v not_o probable_a m._n ward_n be_v restore_v and_o if_o so_o that_o it_o be_v do_v when_o all_o be_v like_a to_o break_v up_o and_o they_o to_o come_v fâ—…_n england_n may_v we_o not_o suspect_v it_o be_v do_v for_o a_o instance_n to_o vindicate_v your_o way_n with_o and_o to_o serve_v your_o turn_n as_o in_o this_o apology_n rather_o than_o from_o any_o necessity_n of_o right_v a_o person_n â—…jured_v or_o correct_v a_o church_n offend_v 5._o why_o do_v not_o the_o church_n of_o arnheim_n take_v offence_n as_o well_o at_o m._n sympson_n church_n and_o at_o his_o schism_n in_o set_v up_o another_o church_n and_o at_o all_o that_o bitterness_n evil_a speak_v between_o those_o two_o church_n the_o ground_n indeed_o and_o foundation_n of_o that_o unhappy_a business_n about_o m._n ward_n and_o of_o all_o the_o evil_n commit_v therein_o and_o according_o have_v require_v m._n sympson_n church_n to_o have_v submit_v but_o here_o be_v not_o a_o hint_n of_o this_o in_o all_o the_o relation_n of_o your_o practice_n i_o have_v a_o letter_n out_o of_o holland_n by_o i_o that_o concern_v this_o business_n write_v thus_o that_o though_o m._n sympson_n with_o sâ—…me_n fâ—…w_o morâ—…_n râ—…t_v themselves_o from_o m._n bridges_n church_n to_o the_o great_a offence_n thereof_o yet_o m._n goodwin_n and_o his_o associate_n when_o they_o come_v to_o hear_v the_o business_n about_o m._n ward_n never_o question_v that_o scandal_n i_o mean_v of_o their_o schism_n from_o the_o same_o church_n now_o if_o it_o be_v so_o be_v not_o this_o a_o partial_a remedy_n not_o reach_v to_o all_o the_o offence_n noâ—…_n to_o the_o bottom_n of_o it_o why_o do_v you_o not_o summon_v both_o these_o church_n in_o the_o matter_n of_o scandal_n and_o difference_n to_o submit_v as_o well_o as_o one_o of_o the_o church_n will_v not_o your_o principle_n serve_v in_o difference_n between_o church_n as_o for_o difference_n in_o one_o church_n or_o be_v it_o that_o there_o be_v no_o complaint_n of_o neither_o side_n or_o be_v it_o because_o you_o be_v tender_a of_o question_v the_o multiplication_n of_o church_n though_o by_o separation_n and_o schiâ—…me_n or_o what_o be_v the_o reason_n you_o question_v not_o that_o 6._o whether_o be_v the_o other_o church_n of_o our_o nation_n or_o any_o of_o they_o who_o can_v not_o but_o be_v offend_v as_o they_o of_o amsterdam_n hague_n utrich_n leyden_n delft_n call_v in_o by_o arnheim_n or_o by_o the_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n to_o join_v in_o the_o hear_n try_v of_o that_o business_n and_o depose_v witness_n or_o do_v they_o send_v messenger_n or_o be_v it_o only_o agitate_a by_o two_o minister_n â—…nd_v two_o messenger_n of_o tâ—…_n church_n of_o arnheim_n one_o church_n only_o 〈◊〉_d to_o 〈◊〉_d one_o to_o one_o both_o equal_a and_o whether_o there_o can_v be_v the_o like_a majesty_n and_o solemnity_n of_o a_o meeting_n where_o they_o be_v equal_a â—…ay_v a_o inferiority_n in_o as_o much_o as_o a_o representative_a church_n consist_v of_o four_o be_v below_o a_o church_n represent_v as_o in_o a_o presbyterial_a assâ—…bly_n i_o have_v a_o letter_n from_o holland_n by_o i_o wherein_o a_o godly_a ministâ—…r_n write_v thus_o i_o be_v desire_v by_o mr_n ward_n to_o be_v present_a at_o that_o meeting_n but_o when_o the_o time_n come_v neither_o i_o nor_o any_o other_o english_a minister_n but_o they_o of_o arnheim_n be_v callâ—…d_v 7._o to_o what_o or_o to_o how_o much_o do_v your_o practice_n who_o be_v the_o church_n offend_v amount_v unto_o upon_o mr_n bridges_n church_n submission_n and_o your_o full_a hear_n and_o find_v both_o side_n to_o be_v in_o a_o error_n do_v you_o enjoin_v and_o draw_v up_o a_o order_n that_o the_o church_n offend_v shall_v public_o acknowledge_v their_o sinfâ—…_n abeâ—…ation_n before_o you_o and_o the_o comer_n of_o all_o sort_n and_o restore_v their_o minister_n again_o and_o that_o they_o shall_v keep_v a_o solemn_a day_n of_o fast_v to_o humble_v themselves_o for_o their_o sinful_a carriage_n and_o that_o the_o minister_n depose_v shall_v acknowledge_v to_o the_o church_n wherein_o he_o have_v likewise_o sin_v or_o do_v you_o leave_v they_o to_o themselves_o upon_o your_o find_v the_o offence_n to_o do_v what_o they_o think_v fit_v both_o church_n and_o minister_n as_o be_v against_o your_o principle_n for_o one_o church_n to_o decree_n and_o impose_v any_o thing_n upon_o another_o and_o so_o they_o â—…ooke_v up_o this_o way_n voluntary_o will_v you_o will_v speak_v out_o and_o once_o tell_v we_o plain_o what_o you_o hold_v and_o what_o you_o woâ—…ld_v 〈◊〉_d that_o so_o the_o reader_n may_v judge_v of_o the_o effectualnessâ—…_n of_o your_o 〈◊〉_d 8._o i_o ask_v of_o you_o whether_o mr_n bridge_n with_o the_o offend_a church_n at_o rotterdam_n do_v sit_v as_o judge_n with_o they_o oâ—…_n 〈◊〉_d in_o their_o own_o cause_n to_o examine_v depose_v etc._n etc._n or_o else_o 〈◊〉_d by_o aâ—…_n delinquent_n to_o be_v charge_v try_a etc._n etc._n 9_o i_o deâ—…e_v to_o know_v of_o you_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d he_o be_v râ—…stored_v do_v as_o forme_o officiate_v in_o that_o church_n and_o how_o long_o and_o whether_o mr_n bridge_n and_o he_o continue_v there_o as_o fellow_n minister_n and_o whether_o both_o between_o they_o two_o and_o between_o the_o church_n and_o mr_n ward_n there_o be_v that_o mutual_a carriage_n as_o before_o and_o aught_o to_o be_v between_o fellow_n minister_n and_o minister_n and_o people_n 10._o how_o can_v a_o church_n representative_a be_v a_o sufficient_a and_o allow_a remedy_n to_o take_v up_o great_a offence_n in_o a_o church_n at_o a_o great_a distance_n and_o whether_o this_o imply_v not_o a_o implicit_a faith_n in_o the_o represent_v to_o let_v the_o representer_n upon_o hear_v put_v a_o final_a determination_n and_o conclusion_n to_o great_a offence_n and_o difference_n without_o return_v back_o the_o business_n to_o the_o church_n represent_v or_o so_o much_o as_o ever_o acquaint_v they_o with_o the_o business_n before_o all_o be_v end_v as_o be_v in_o this_o particular_a case_n and_o whether_o faith_n mr_n robinsâ—…s_fw-fr argument_n against_o the_o presbyterian_o â—…bout_o the_o power_n of_o their_o elder_n be_v not_o strong_a against_o your_o principle_n and_o practice_n here_o relate_v and_o what_o ground_n be_v there_o from_o tâ—…e_a scripture_n that_o four_o man_n of_o another_o church_n shall_v have_v power_n to_o call_v unto_o and_o insist_v upon_o a_o judiciarie_n charge_v against_o they_o who_o be_v great_a than_o themselves_o namely_o against_o a_o whole_a church_n consist_v of_o officerâ—…_n and_o people_n 11._o suppose_v the_o church_n of_o arâ—…m_n who_o send_v two_o ministerâ—…_n and_o two_o gentleman_n â—…s_v messenger_n of_o their_o church_n upon_o their_o return_n back_o to_o the_o church_n and_o give_v a_o account_n of_o all_o the_o proceed_n and_o issue_n of_o that_o business_n have_v dislike_v the_o determination_n and_o judge_v some_o of_o the_o proceed_n unjust_a otherâ—…_n unsatisfactory_a and_o not_o according_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o the_o word_n as_o the_o church_n of_o 〈◊〉_d may_v well_o have_v do_v there_o be_v just_a ground_n for_o it_o as_o i_o will_v show_v in_o the_o second_o particular_a under_o the_o next_o head_n what_o must_v have_v be_v do_v in_o this_o case_n must_v the_o messenger_n themselves_o have_v be_v now_o question_v by_o the_o church_n for_o manage_v matter_n no_o better_a or_o must_v the_o sentence_n agree_v upon_o both_o for_o the_o church_n and_o mr_n ward_n be_v reverse_v or_o must_v other_o messenger_n be_v send_v to_o hear_v matter_n again_o and_o to_o change_v or_o add_v what_o be_v amiss_o and_o what_o if_o the_o church_n will_v not_o alter_v that_o which_o upon_o so_o full_a a_o hear_n and_o trial_n be_v agree_v upon_o now_o i_o ask_v of_o you_o and_o appeal_v to_o the_o reader_n consider_v that_o the_o church_n or_o church_n themselves_o may_v probable_o and_o it_o can_v but_o be_v expect_v 〈◊〉_d and_o vary_v in_o their_o judgement_n from_o their_o messenger_n about_o the_o determination_n of_o offence_n and_o difference_n whether_o this_o be_v a_o likely_a mean_n and_o sufficient_a remedy_n to_o end_v all_o strifed_a or_o rather_o will_v not_o be_v as_o the_o begin_n of_o new_a strife_n and_o a_o occasion_n of_o endless_a contention_n 12._o in_o this_o way_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n and_o your_o practice_n upon_o occasion_n of_o offence_n and_o
word_n to_o hinder_v the_o depose_n of_o mr_n ward_n and_o so_o to_o have_v prevent_v so_o great_a a_o scandal_n and_o offence_n as_o this_o be_v to_o the_o five_o and_o last_o general_a head_n the_o comparison_n you_o make_v between_o the_o effectualness_n and_o powerfulnesse_n of_o your_o way_n of_o submission_n and_o non-communion_n and_o that_o of_o the_o presbyterian_o to_o awe_n and_o preserve_v church_n and_o elder_n in_o their_o duty_n and_o to_o reduce_v church_n miscarry_v where_o you_o make_v the_o sâ—…ales_n fall_v on_o your_o side_n rather_o i_o answer_v beside_o some_o considerable_a thing_n already_o hint_v under_o some_o of_o the_o former_a head_n especial_o under_o the_o four_o head_n which_o do_v show_v a_o wide_a difference_n of_o the_o effectualness_n and_o success_n which_o the_o presbyterian_a principle_n and_o way_n hold_v out_o over_o your_o congregationall_a thâ—…e_o be_v many_o other_o to_o 〈◊〉_d the_o sâ—…les_n which_o i_o shall_v now_o speak_v of_o according_a as_o it_o be_v lay_v down_o here_o by_o you_o in_o the_o 17_o 18_o and_o 19_o page_n 1._o that_o you_o may_v render_v your_o way_n the_o more_o specious_a and_o probable_a you_o beg_v the_o question_n and_o take_v for_o grant_v thing_n deny_v suppose_v that_o also_o which_o never_o have_v fall_v out_o in_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o you_o speak_v but_o to_o a_o part_n of_o the_o way_n and_o remedy_n namely_o excommunication_n anâ—…_n from_o all_o these_o false_a premise_n you_o make_v your_o conclusion_n you_o lie_v down_o your_o way_n of_o submission_n and_o non-communion_n 〈◊〉_d that_o â—…ch_n be_v the_o 〈◊〉_d and_o way_n of_o christ_n and_o to_o be_v strict_o enjoin_v by_o christ_n â—…d_v that_o it_o be_v a_o command_n from_o christ_n enjoin_v to_o church_n that_o be_v â—…ly_o offend_v to_o denounce_v such_o a_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n which_o be_v a_o mere_a device_n of_o your_o own_o brain_n and_o sound_v out_o to_o give_v a_o colourable_a answer_n to_o that_o common_a and_o 〈◊〉_d reason_n against_o the_o churchway_n 〈◊〉_d you_o make_v that_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d in_o presbytery_n to_o be_v a_o excommunicate_v of_o whole_a church_n and_o â—…s_v deliver_v of_o whole_a church_n and_o their_o eldere_fw-la offend_v unto_o saâ—…n_n which_o be_v a_o scandalous_a charge_n lay_v to_o though_o presbyterian_a government_n and_o never_o yet_o be_v â—…rd_n of_o in_o any_o of_o the_o reform_a church_n for_o the_o space_n now_o of_o a_o hundred_o year_n past_a you_o lay_v you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n power_n then_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v whereas_o in_o some_o thing_n i_o shall_v show_v the_o contrary_a and_o in_o other_o thing_n you_o may_v out_o of_o policy_n at_o this_o time_n give_v more_o than_o the_o scripture_n allow_v you_o speak_v only_o of_o excommunication_n a_o part_n of_o their_o way_n whereas_o in_o combine_a classical_a government_n there_o be_v many_o other_o mean_n and_o way_n from_o first_o to_o last_o to_o preserve_v and_o reduce_v from_o error_n and_o offence_n 2._o the_o comparison_n make_v by_o you_o between_o the_o presbyterian_o and_o independent_o stand_v in_o two_o thing_n first_o in_o the_o ecclesiastical_a proceed_n and_o power_n second_o in_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n power_n 1._o for_o the_o ecclesiastical_a you_o make_v that_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n that_o miscarry_v and_o that_o of_o non-communion_n as_o effectual_a as_o excommunication_n which_o suppose_v they_o be_v as_o i_o shall_v show_v they_o be_v not_o yet_o it_o be_v a_o fallacious_a reason_n by_o compare_v the_o whole_a with_o a_o part_n for_o a_o whole_a of_o one_o kind_n may_v be_v better_a and_o more_o excellent_a than_o some_o part_n of_o another_o kind_n and_o yet_o not_o comparable_a to_o the_o whole_a now_o there_o be_v many_o thing_n in_o presbyterial_a government_n beside_o excommunication_n excellent_a to_o preserve_v and_o keep_v the_o church_n their_o reformation_n and_o constitution_n be_v settle_v by_o synod_n and_o assembly_n their_o minister_n be_v ordain_v by_o presbytery_n and_o class_n their_o doctrine_n worship_n government_n and_o discipline_n upon_o serious_a debate_n and_o by_o common_a content_n draw_v up_o then_o rule_v be_v fix_v know_v and_o certain_a their_o classical_a meeting_n frequent_a and_o constant_a with_o high_a assembly_n for_o appeal_n their_o number_n and_o ability_n great_a their_o remedy_n and_o censure_n more_o solemn_a and_o more_o in_o number_n as_o deposition_n suspension_n etc._n etc._n all_o which_o be_v want_v in_o the_o church_n way_n as_o i_o can_v show_v at_o large_a but_o that_o this_o answer_n will_v be_v too_o great_a a_o volume_n but_o to_o come_v to_o particular_n the_o presbyterian_a be_v more_o effectual_a than_o your_o independent_a way_n 1._o because_o it_o do_v prevent_v and_o preserve_v from_o those_o many_o error_n division_n evil_n which_o fall_v in_o your_o way_n as_o be_v evident_a by_o experience_n and_o be_v found_v upon_o good_a reason_n will_v fall_v out_o now_o how_o much_o better_a and_o more_o effectual_a a_o way_n it_o be_v to_o play_v the_o foregame_n than_o the_o aftergame_n all_o man_n know_v it_o be_v better_a to_o prevent_v the_o plague_n and_o take_n in_o poison_n then_o to_o expel_v it_o government_n be_v for_o prevention_n as_o well_o as_o recover_v if_o your_o way_n be_v as_o effectual_a to_o compose_v difference_n and_o reduce_v church_n yet_o not_o so_o to_o prevent_v which_o be_v one_o of_o the_o great_a end_n of_o church_n government_n 2._o your_o way_n wrap_v in_o whole_a church_n in_o sin_n and_o guilt_n and_o you_o have_v no_o remedy_n but_o it_o must_v come_v to_o non-communion_n of_o whole_a church_n but_o in_o presbyterial_a it_o be_v not_o so_o no_o example_n be_v extant_a among_o they_o of_o excommunicate_v whole_a church_n so_o that_o if_o a_o error_n take_v one_o or_o two_o they_o be_v present_o deal_v with_o and_o the_o error_n spread_v not_o to_o a_o whole_a church_n 3._o in_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n the_o person_n offend_v and_o sin_v in_o congregation_n be_v proceed_v with_o and_o punish_v every_o man_n bear_v his_o own_o sin_n but_o the_o innocent_a person_n suffer_v not_o but_o here_o in_o the_o way_n of_o non-communion_n some_o who_o be_v good_a in_o the_o church_n suffer_v also_o many_o way_n and_o here_o be_v no_o difference_n make_v by_o you_o but_o all_o involve_a in_o the_o same_o condition_n 4._o in_o your_o way_n as_o if_o all_o sin_n be_v equal_a and_o all_o offender_n alike_o all_o be_v punish_v with_o the_o same_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n but_o it_o be_v not_o so_o in_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n 5._o your_o submission_n and_o meeting_n be_v accidental_a uncertain_a free_a and_o at_o choice_n they_o may_v be_v and_o may_v not_o be_v there_o be_v many_o way_n to_o evade_v and_o put_v they_o off_o whereas_o the_o combination_n and_o consociation_n of_o church_n be_v fix_v set_v certain_a among_o your_o church_n in_o holland_n in_o three_o or_o four_o year_n there_o be_v but_o one_o act_n of_o submission_n and_o one_o meeting_n which_o be_v here_o relate_v in_o that_o difference_n between_o those_o two_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n there_o be_v no_o submission_n but_o each_o church_n blow_v the_o trumpet_n of_o defiance_n against_o each_o other_o and_o so_o about_o the_o difference_n at_o arnheim_n which_o the_o church_n can_v not_o end_v in_o so_o long_a a_o time_n no_o church_n interpose_v but_o in_o the_o classical_a government_n there_o be_v such_o a_o subordination_n and_o dependencie_n such_o state_v and_o fix_v meeting_n that_o if_o man_n shall_v escape_v one_o they_o do_v not_o all_o now_o in_o government_n and_o order_n there_o be_v a_o material_a difference_n between_o what_o man_n may_v do_v or_o not_o do_v and_o what_o they_o have_v tie_v themselves_o unto_o and_o must_v stand_v to_o in_o matter_n of_o civil_a difference_n refer_v to_o arbitratour_n it_o be_v one_o thing_n to_o submit_v to_o hear_v and_o to_o counsel_v upon_o it_o and_o another_o thing_n to_o be_v bind_v to_o stand_v to_o the_o determination_n there_o be_v many_o will_v do_v just_o and_o perform_v such_o trust_n while_o bind_v who_o leave_v at_o liberty_n will_v do_v just_o nothing_o now_o in_o your_o submission_n of_o church_n though_o you_o submit_v to_o a_o hear_n yet_o you_o do_v not_o submit_v to_o their_o determination_n unless_o it_o like_v you_o you_o do_v not_o submit_v to_o do_v what_o they_o enjoin_v but_o you_o will_v order_v yourselves_o according_a to_o their_o counsel_n as_o you_o see_v occasion_n now_o man_n be_v partial_a in_o their_o own_o cause_n and_o still_o their_o own_o judge_n what_o a_o remedy_n be_v this_o it_o be_v one_o thing_n when_o man_n know_v they_o be_v at_o liberty_n and_o may_v do_v or_o not_o do_v as_o they_o see_v good_a and_o another_o
thing_n when_o they_o must_v we_o find_v it_o so_o in_o all_o converse_v with_o man_n and_o good_a man_n be_v man_n there_o be_v a_o great_a deal_n of_o difference_n between_o authority_n and_o obedience_n and_o only_a persuasion_n on_o the_o one_o part_n and_o free_a will_n on_o the_o other_o no_o man_n will_v deny_v but_o in_o civil_a matter_n there_o be_v a_o great_a difference_n in_o such_o case_n be_v it_o in_o the_o power_n of_o particular_a member_n in_o your_o church_n to_o submit_v or_o not_o submit_v as_o they_o please_v there_o will_v be_v much_o ado_n to_o remedy_v any_o thing_n as_o will_v be_v betwixt_o church_n differ_v but_o particular_o for_o excommunication_n and_o non-communion_n excommunication_n may_v upon_o these_o ground_n awe_v man_n conscience_n more_o and_o be_v more_o effectual_a than_o non-communion_n 1._o because_o there_o be_v something_o positive_a in_o it_o it_o be_v a_o deliver_v of_o the_o offender_n up_o unto_o satan_n but_o your_o non-communion_n be_v a_o privative_a deprive_v only_o of_o communion_n now_o there_o be_v more_o efficacy_n in_o a_o positive_a then_o in_o a_o privative_a and_o negative_a second_o excommunication_n do_v deprive_v the_o person_n offend_v or_o the_o church_n of_o all_o communion_n among_o themselves_o as_o well_o as_o the_o communion_n of_o other_o church_n whereas_o the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n do_v but_o take_v other_o church_n off_o from_o communion_n with_o they_o but_o meddle_v not_o to_o debar_v they_o of_o communion_n among_o themselves_o in_o their_o own_o particular_a church_n but_o still_o they_o enjoy_v the_o word_n prayer_n sacrament_n etc._n etc._n which_o be_v a_o great_a difference_n three_o yourselves_o make_v excommunication_n the_o great_a censure_n as_o appear_v by_o your_o own_o phrase_n call_v it_o a_o authoritative_a power_n etc._n etc._n and_o not_o practise_v that_o against_o other_o church_n whereas_o you_o do_v exercise_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n and_o we_o know_v it_o be_v the_o high_a censure_n in_o the_o church_n now_o certain_o the_o great_a censure_n and_o more_o dreadful_a punishment_n according_a to_o christ_n institution_n and_o intention_n be_v more_o effectual_a and_o powerful_a to_o awe_v and_o to_o remedy_v thing_n amiss_o then_o the_o lesser_a and_o low_a censure_n and_o so_o much_o for_o the_o comparison_n in_o the_o ecclesiastical_a proceed_n second_o in_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n power_n you_o grant_v that_o aught_o to_o back_n and_o assist_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o church_n miscarry_v according_a to_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o crime_n and_o you_o give_v more_o as_o you_o think_v to_o the_o magistrate_n power_n in_o matter_n ecclesiastical_a than_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yeâ—…ld_v your_o way_n of_o church_n proceed_v will_v be_v every_o way_n as_o effectual_a as_o the_o presbyterian_o i_o answer_v suppose_v all_o that_o you_o say_v of_o give_v so_o much_o power_n to_o the_o magistrate_n &c_n &c_n be_v true_a yet_o that_o make_v not_o your_o submission_n and_o non-communion_n so_o effectual_a a_o mean_n as_o excommunication_n for_o the_o question_n be_v about_o ecclesiastical_a authority_n and_o spiritual_a power_n and_o about_o spiritual_a mean_n and_o remedy_n for_o the_o conscience_n and_o soul_n and_o not_o about_o civil_a power_n and_o civil_a external_a mean_n and_o i_o will_v ask_v you_o this_o question_n upon_o this_o passage_n of_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n either_o you_o give_v he_o a_o ecclesiastical_a spiritual_a power_n of_o apply_v spiritual_a remedy_n and_o mean_n to_o church_n miscarry_v or_o you_o do_v not_o if_o you_o give_v he_o not_o this_o first_o as_o i_o judge_v your_o principle_n will_v not_o allow_v you_o he_o be_v no_o churchofficer_n of_o christ_n â—…hurch_n but_o only_o christ_n give_v pastor_n teacher_n etc._n etc._n as_o necessary_a and_o sufficient_a for_o the_o government_n of_o his_o church_n than_o all_o you_o say_v of_o the_o magistrate_n help_v you_o not_o it_o be_v nothing_o to_o the_o question_n in_o hand_n but_o before_o i_o speak_v any_o more_o to_o that_o point_n that_o the_o magistrate_n power_n back_v your_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n be_v not_o comparable_a to_o the_o presbyterian_a way_n i_o must_v animadvert_v upon_o the_o passage_n itself_o both_o in_o the_o comparative_a of_o your_o say_n you_o think_v you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n than_o the_o presbyterian_o and_o upon_o the_o positive_a what_o you_o give_v they_o 1._o for_o the_o comparison_n it_o be_v a_o odious_a and_o dangerous_a insinuation_n to_o prepare_v king_n and_o parliament_n to_o reject_v the_o presbytery_n as_o not_o give_v so_o much_o to_o magistrate_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n and_o church_n government_n as_o be_v their_o due_n and_o it_o be_v scandalous_a against_o scotland_n and_o all_o the_o reform_a church_n but_o what_o be_v the_o main_a â—…nd_n of_o it_o or_o what_o may_v be_v conceive_v the_o reason_n of_o your_o say_n you_o give_v so_o much_o to_o the_o magistrate_n power_n and_o more_o than_o the_o presbyterian_o see_v man_n of_o your_o church_n principle_n be_v never_o guilty_a yet_o of_o give_v too_o much_o ecclesiastical_a power_n to_o magistrate_n you_o be_v the_o first_o independent_o and_o this_o be_v the_o first_o time_n that_o ever_o public_o you_o have_v express_v yourselves_o thus_o i_o judge_v you_o be_v politician_n politici_fw-la theologi_fw-la to_o flatter_v the_o parliament_n at_o this_o time_n the_o better_a to_o work_v your_o end_n for_o a_o toleration_n and_o to_o promote_v your_o churchway_n you_o write_v thus_o it_o be_v observe_v by_o learned_a man_n that_o among_o the_o principal_a attempt_n and_o policy_n of_o the_o remonstrant_n whereby_o they_o labour_v to_o bring_v the_o church_n of_o the_o netherlands_o into_o commotion_n and_o to_o obtain_v their_o own_o end_n this_o be_v a_o great_a one_o the_o cry_v up_o the_o power_n of_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n both_o by_o write_v of_o book_n of_o their_o great_a power_n in_o ecclesiastical_n and_o in_o their_o sermon_n every_o where_o and_o their_o asperse_v the_o orthodox_n minister_n and_o their_o lawful_a meeting_n and_o ecclesiastical_a action_n with_o the_o contrary_a and_o among_o many_o other_o particular_n of_o the_o great_a power_n they_o give_v the_o magistrate_n in_o ecclesiastical_n this_o be_v one_o that_o they_o do_v ascribe_v to_o the_o magistrate_n the_o ultimate_a and_o high_a jurisdiction_n and_o power_n of_o give_v judgement_n in_o ecclesiastical_a matter_n reason_v that_o unto_o the_o magistrate_n alone_o immediate_o under_o christ_n do_v belong_v the_o judgement_n when_o controversy_n of_o faith_n do_v arise_v in_o the_o church_n and_o therefore_o after_o the_o arminian_n despair_v of_o prevail_v by_o the_o ecclesiastical_a assembly_n they_o bring_v and_o remove_v their_o cause_n from_o the_o ecclesiastical_a cognizance_n to_o another_o court_n by_o their_o policy_n and_o artifices_fw-la make_v use_n of_o the_o authority_n of_o one_o or_o two_o chief_a man_n in_o place_n to_o work_v for_o they_o and_o that_o this_o new-way_n may_v have_v some_o colour_n and_o that_o so_o much_o the_o more_o easy_o the_o favour_n of_o many_o politician_n or_o at_o least_o a_o toleration_n may_v be_v procure_v for_o these_o arminian_n novelty_n there_o be_v a_o book_n set_v forth_o by_o uttenbogardus_fw-la de_fw-la jure_fw-la supremi_fw-la magistratus_fw-la in_o ecclesiasticis_fw-la many_o other_o of_o the_o arminian_n also_o sing_v the_o same_o song_n as_o episcopius_n print_v a_o disputation_n de_fw-fr jure_fw-la magistratus_fw-la circa_fw-la sacra_fw-la barlaeus_n grotius_n etc._n etc._n and_o beside_o all_o these_o there_o be_v a_o great_a number_n of_o book_n put_v forth_o in_o the_o vulgar_a and_o mother_n tongue_n of_o the_o power_n and_o authority_n of_o the_o magistrate_n and_o thus_o whilst_o the_o magistrate_n let_v the_o arminian_n alonâ—…_n and_o do_v nothing_o against_o they_o even_o till_o the_o synod_n of_o dort_n in_o the_o year_n 1618._o they_o slatter_v they_o thus_o but_o after_o the_o synod_n of_o dort_n have_v determine_v against_o their_o opinion_n and_o that_o the_o magistrate_n be_v agaiâ—…t_v they_o than_o they_o lift_v up_o the_o heel_n and_o then_o they_o write_v book_n in_o a_o far_a other_o stile_n and_o in_o their_o apology_n that_o power_n which_o before_o they_o have_v so_o liberal_o measure_v out_o for_o they_o they_o do_v not_o a_o little_a limit_n and_o contract_n and_o offend_v as_o much_o in_o the_o defect_n give_v magistrate_n too_o little_a as_o before_o they_o have_v in_o the_o excess_n give_v they_o too_o much_o for_o the_o full_a proof_n of_o this_o i_o refer_v the_o reader_n to_o learned_a erant_fw-la voetius_fw-la select_a disputation_n concern_v that_o question_n penes_fw-la quos_fw-la sit_fw-la potestas_fw-la ecclesiastica_fw-la where_o he_o do_v at_o large_a relate_v this_o and_o their_o opinion_n about_o the_o magistrate_n power_n after_o the_o synod_n
so_o there_o be_v need_n of_o synod_n for_o the_o govern_n of_o the_o church_n and_o for_o the_o prevent_n of_o herâ—…fies_v in_o a_o word_n all_o thing_n be_v loose_a in_o independent_a government_n every_o one_o be_v leave_v and_o may_v take_v liberty_n without_o control_n to_o do_v what_o be_v good_a in_o their_o own_o eye_n if_o they_o like_v not_o any_o church_n whereof_o they_o be_v member_n they_o may_v go_v to_o another_o nay_o a_o few_o in_o a_o church_n dislike_a that_o church_n may_v go_v make_v a_o church_n themselves_o and_o make_v minister_n and_o hold_v what_o they_o will_v as_o mr_n sympson_n do_v with_o some_o few_o more_o and_o since_o some_o have_v rend_v from_o mr_n sympson_n church_n as_o he_o from_o mr_n bridge_n the_o rule_v they_o go_v by_o be_v loose_a nothing_o be_v fix_v nor_o certain_a among_o they_o and_o there_o can_v be_v no_o settledness_n of_o mind_n nor_o consistence_n of_o principle_n in_o that_o way_n simple_a and_o well_o mean_v people_n according_a to_o their_o principle_n must_v be_v draw_v till_o they_o come_v to_o that_o to_o hold_v that_o there_o be_v no_o true_a church_n nor_o minister_n at_o all_o yet_o upon_o the_o earth_n which_o principle_n begin_v to_o take_v and_o spread_v already_o among_o many_o independent_o in_o a_o word_n that_o liberty_n and_o looseness_n which_o be_v from_o first_o to_o last_o in_o independent_a government_n hold_v no_o authoritative_a ecclesiastical_a power_n out_o of_o the_o particular_a congregation_n to_o remedy_n or_o prevent_v any_o matter_n and_o that_o which_o be_v in_o the_o particular_a congregation_n be_v on_o many_o ground_n and_o principle_n of_o they_o so_o slight_a and_o weak_a as_o the_o only_a subject_n of_o excommunication_n be_v no_o other_o kind_n of_o sin_n than_o may_v evident_o be_v presume_v to_o be_v perpetrate_v against_o the_o party_n know_v light_n etc._n etc._n as_o that_o two_o or_o three_o saint_n or_o now_o of_o late_a six_o or_o seven_o may_v withdraw_v from_o church_n defective_a and_o impure_a and_o make_v church_n and_o choose_v all_o officer_n etc._n etc._n with_o other_o like_a so_o that_o what_o need_v they_o care_v then_o for_o that_o church_n of_o which_o they_o be_v member_n though_o cast_v out_o see_v they_o can_v make_v new_a and_o have_v all_o to_o their_o own_o mind_n be_v chief_a there_o be_v a_o dangerous_a temptation_n even_o to_o sober_a man_n to_o make_v they_o presume_v to_o broach_v that_o practise_v that_o which_o else_o they_o will_v never_o have_v do_v but_o in_o the_o order_n and_o government_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n there_o be_v consistence_n unity_n and_o strength_n as_o be_v evident_a by_o a_o hundred_o year_n visible_a experience_n of_o god_n blessing_n from_o heaven_n upon_o they_o there_o be_v also_o a_o certainty_n and_o fixedness_n of_o rule_n agree_v on_o both_o for_o particular_a congregation_n for_o class_n and_o synod_n there_o be_v a_o aw_v and_o preserve_v of_o officer_n and_o people_n in_o their_o bound_n and_o keep_v they_o from_o run_v out_o to_o error_n etc._n etc._n there_o be_v no_o man_n be_v he_o never_o so_o able_a or_o subtle_a that_o can_v escape_v call_v to_o account_n and_o censure_n magistrate_n and_o minister_n have_v their_o power_n in_o the_o church_n without_o usurpation_n and_o confusion_n and_o to_o conclude_v in_o the_o word_n of_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n be_v magistrate_n and_o civil_a power_n acquaint_v with_o this_o order_n and_o government_n of_o the_o church_n they_o will_v find_v their_o authority_n increase_v their_o work_n more_o easy_a and_o their_o place_n more_o comfortable_a thereby_o and_o now_o have_v give_v a_o answer_n to_o that_o part_n of_o your_o apology_n under_o that_o instance_n of_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o church_n by_o speak_v full_o of_o those_o five_o head_n unto_o which_o i_o refer_v all_o your_o discourse_n about_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o church_n begin_v in_o pag._n 12._o and_o end_v in_o the_o 21._o i_o will_v for_o a_o close_o speak_v something_o to_o some_o of_o your_o passage_n contain_v in_o this_o part_n of_o your_o narration_n which_o can_v not_o so_o well_o be_v take_v in_o nor_o so_o proper_o animadvert_v upon_o under_o those_o five_o head_n without_o the_o reader_n be_v much_o confound_v and_o entangle_v 1._o to_o that_o passage_n p._n 14._o we_o have_v for_o the_o most_o part_n of_o the_o time_n we_o be_v abroad_o three_o elder_n at_o least_o in_o each_o congregation_n who_o we_o be_v subject_a to_o i_o ask_v if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n you_o many_o time_n have_v but_o three_o and_o sometime_o but_o two_o nay_o one_o elder_a the_o government_n of_o your_o church_n then_o be_v either_o monarchical_a government_n or_o oligarchicall_a at_o best_a and_o if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n who_o be_v the_o elder_n subject_n to_o the_o elder_n than_o be_v under_o no_o subjection_n but_o if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n and_o not_o the_o elder_n to_o the_o church_n riddle_n i_o what_o be_v the_o meaning_n of_o all_o those_o phrase_n the_o church_n still_o do_v so_o and_o so_o not_o the_o elder_n the_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n depose_v m._n ward_n and_o not_o m._n bridge_n and_o a_o elder_a or_o two_o and_o so_o m._n nye_n and_o m._n goodwin_n the_o minister_n be_v send_v by_o the_o church_n and_o that_o church_n which_o have_v offend_v confess_v their_o sin_n and_o restore_v their_o minister_n to_o his_o place_n again_o which_o sure_o be_v not_o m._n bridge_n and_o a_o lay-elder_n or_o two_o 2._o to_o those_o passage_n of_o church_n offend_v call_v to_o a_o account_n church_n offend_v proceed_v to_o full_a and_o open_a trial_n and_o examination_n to_o judiciarie_n charge_n and_o deposition_n of_o witness_n open_o before_o all_o comer_n of_o all_o sort_n as_o can_v be_v expect_v in_o any_o court_n where_o authority_n about_o they_o enjoin_v it_o and_o of_o a_o particular_a church_n be_v censurable_a by_o neighbour_n church_n about_o they_o i_o desire_v to_o put_v this_o disjunctive_a proposition_n either_o this_o power_n of_o call_v to_o a_o account_n examine_v depose_v witness_n censure_v they_o etc._n etc._n be_v act_n of_o rule_v and_o government_n and_o in_o the_o church_n challenge_v act_n of_o subjection_n or_o they_o be_v not_o if_o you_o grant_v they_o be_v act_n of_o rule_n and_o government_n than_o there_o be_v a_o authoritative_a power_n which_o church_n have_v out_o of_o their_o church_n and_o you_o grant_v it_o in_o such_o act_n at_o least_o though_o not_o in_o that_o of_o excommunication_n but_o whether_o if_o it_o be_v so_o in_o these_o that_o of_o excommunication_n will_v not_o follow_v let_v it_o be_v consider_v for_o either_o the_o censure_n of_o excommunication_n be_v not_o found_v upon_o the_o common_a ground_n on_o which_o calling_n to_o account_n and_o some_o censure_n be_v or_o else_o there_o be_v some_o proper_a peculiar_a ground_n in_o the_o nature_n of_o that_o ordinance_n or_o in_o the_o scripture_n forbid_v that_o though_o allow_v other_o neither_o of_o which_o will_v be_v find_v to_o have_v a_o foundation_n in_o scripture_n and_o if_o so_o why_o then_o do_v you_o make_v all_o this_o ado_n of_o entire_a full_a complete_a power_n within_o yourselves_o and_o be_v against_o the_o combination_n of_o church_n in_o class_n and_o presbytery_n to_o do_v that_o constant_o certain_o and_o present_o upon_o scandal_n that_o fall_v out_o in_o a_o church_n which_o you_o do_v at_o best_a but_o at_o uncertainty_n and_o after_o a_o long_a time_n when_o the_o remedy_n may_v come_v too_o late_o a_o year_n or_o two_o afterward_o but_o if_o you_o answer_v these_o be_v no_o act_n of_o government_n and_o rule_n in_o this_o church_n or_o church_n but_o mere_o act_n of_o consultation_n advice_n persuasion_n and_o that_o when_o the_o church_n offend_v have_v hear_v all_o they_o 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write_v in_o any_o other_o sense_n but_o in_o the_o point_n of_o ecclesiastical_a government_n and_o power_n do_v we_o lie_v to_o your_o charge_n in_o our_o writing_n against_o independency_n that_o you_o challenge_v a_o exemption_n of_o all_o church_n from_o all_o subjection_n and_o dependence_n or_o rather_o that_o you_o shall_v blow_v a_o trumpet_n of_o desiance_n against_o what_o ever_o power_n spiritual_a or_o civil_a do_v i_o or_o any_o other_o charge_v you_o with_o refuse_v all_o subjection_n to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n and_o for_o that_o other_o dependence_n of_o consultation_n and_o non-communion_n upon_o other_o church_n the_o power_n you_o give_v in_o that_o kind_n to_o synod_n etc._n etc._n i_o acknowledge_v it_o in_o my_o eight_o reason_n 19_o and_o argue_v from_o thence_o to_o the_o power_n of_o excommunication_n why_o then_o do_v you_o deal_v thus_o deceitful_o and_o double_o pretend_v to_o abhor_v and_o detest_v independency_n as_o it_o be_v object_v and_o plead_v 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all_o that_o you_o can_v just_o free_v yourselves_o from_o the_o odious_a name_n of_o brownism_n in_o most_o of_o the_o fundamental_a principle_n and_o practice_n of_o your_o church_n no_o not_o with_o all_o your_o artifices_fw-la and_o specious_a pretence_n as_o the_o brownist_n grow_v up_o and_o out_o of_o the_o anabaptist_n do_v refine_v and_o qualify_v anabaptisine_n in_o many_o thing_n in_o government_n prophesy_v etc._n etc._n so_o have_v you_o refine_a and_o qualify_v brownism_n from_o the_o grossness_n and_o rigidness_n of_o it_o as_o it_o be_v hold_v by_o the_o first_o father_n and_o author_n of_o it_o as_o i_o can_v show_v in_o many_o particular_n you_o do_v not_o go_v so_o far_o as_o they_o neither_o be_v you_o against_o some_o practice_n of_o other_o church_n upon_o those_o high_a term_n but_o yet_o for_o substance_n from_o the_o first_o stone_n to_o the_o last_o in_o depart_v from_o our_o assembly_n and_o constitute_v new_a you_o agree_v with_o they_o as_o by_o a_o r._n parallel_n between_o the_o way_n of_o your_o communion_n and_o the_o separatist_n late_o print_v do_v appear_v and_o in_o a_o word_n it_o be_v evident_a thus_o you_o agree_v with_o the_o way_n of_o new-england_n as_o be_v confess_v by_o some_o of_o yourselves_o and_o we_o may_v judge_v so_o by_o your_o high_a praise_n of_o they_o now_o the_o church_n of_o new-england_n agree_v with_o they_o of_o m._n robinson_n church_n who_o be_v moderate_a and_o qualify_a brownist_n now_o that_o the_o churchway_n of_o new-england_n be_v the_o same_o with_o they_o of_o m._n robinson_n church_n be_v prove_v thus_o the_o church_n at_o new-plymouth_n be_v the_o first_o company_n that_o plant_v in_o those_o part_n who_o come_v from_o leiden_fw-mi where_fw-mi they_o be_v member_n of_o m._n robinson_n church_n a_o moderate_a brownist_n in_o his_o latter_a time_n practise_v the_o church-opinion_n and_o way_n they_o former_o have_v in_o holland_n and_o when_o they_o of_o new-england_n go_v over_o first_o 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your_o change_n have_v spring_v from_o new-plymouth_n man_n who_o though_o i_o much_o esteem_v as_o godly_a love_v christian_n yet_o their_o ground_n which_o for_o this_o tenet_n they_o receive_v from_o m._n robinson_n do_v not_o satisfy_v i_o three_o there_o be_v great_a commendation_n give_v to_o the_o church_n of_o plymouth_n by_o m._n cotton_n after_o come_v to_o new-england_n in_o his_o letter_n to_o m._n williams_n pag._n 13._o four_o all_o the_o minister_n and_o elder_n of_o new-england_n do_v affirm_v that_o all_o the_o church_n in_o new-england_n viz._n in_o the_o bay_n in_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o plymouth_n and_o at_o connetâ—…acute_n be_v one_o and_o the_o same_o way_n in_o church_n constitution_n government_n and_o discipline_n without_o any_o material_a difference_n now_o what_o can_v be_v say_v more_o plain_a add_v to_o all_o these_o that_o i_o have_v it_o from_o the_o mouth_n of_o a_o