Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	earth_n	militant_a	triumphant_a	4,249	5	10.5933	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A33770	Theophilus and Philodoxus, or, Several conferences between two friends the one a true son of the Church of England, the other faln off to the Church of Rome, concerning 1. praier in an unknown tongue, 2. the half communion, 3. the worshipping of images, 4. the invocation of saints / by Gilbert Coles.	Coles, Gilbert, 1617-1676.	1674 (1674)	Wing C5085; ESTC R27900	233,018	224

Persecutors much more for mercy and favor unto their friends and brethren for they are more inflam'd with charity then with an eager thirst after revenge Theoph. I perceive most of the Arguments are probable diductions from Analogie and proportion but we expect divine Autority to establish such a principle part of Worship which you make the Invocation of Saints Phil. We are not yet arriv'd at that point but preparing the way unto it shewing the Saints in Heaven do understand our affairs and pray for us and with your patience I will give other Texts to prove it Theoph. More pertinent I beseech you Phil. That passage of S t Peter is full to the point 2 d of Pet. 1. 15. I will endeavor after my decease that ye may be able to have these things alwaies in remembrance Where the Apostle shews that after his departure he will endeavor for them Theoph. This feat Argument is Bellarmines and not S t Peters he hath chang'd the order of the words and so by consequence their meaning The Original Text manifests how the words should be read not as you transport them I will endeavor after my decease that you may be able to keep in remembrance c. But Thus a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. I will endeavor that every one of you may be able after my decease to have those things alwaies in remembrance And this endeavor he did use in the daies of his flesh in preaching the Gospel until his death and leaving these Epistles as remembrancers Bellarmine indeed hath the confidence to add to the Text his Paraphrase that it might serve his turn b Dabo operam habere vos commendatos sive in Animo post obitum I will endeavor to have you recommended or in mind after my death And yet it is observeable how he concludes this Text after all his patching c Quam vis non sit evidens est tamen probabile argumentum to be no evident but a probable Argument Whereas as he hath shapt it it is cleer and demonstrative to his purpose but his conscience checkt him for his additions and transmutations and so he would not lay any great stress upon it Phil. You will never leave your sinister Construction of his fair dealing but I hope his next Argument has evidence enough That if Dives in Hell was solicitous for his Brethren upon earth and pray'd Abraham to send Lazarus to warn them least they should come into the same place of Condemnation much more are the Saints in Heaven sollicitous for their Brethren the Church Militant and pray for their protection and assistance Theoph. Your Arguments a majori will not hold without some Autority to support them This of the rich glutton is but a feeble Crutch d Justin Eucherius Cyril Chrysost many Intepreters take the whole passage to be a parable not an History and e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Theophylact upon the place reckons the other that it is an History a foolish conceit Now you know the maxim f Parabolae non sunt argumentativae parables are no Argumentative Topick neither are they Narratives of things done but similitudinary representations to fix some Doctrines more sensibly and effectually in mens minds Again if it were an Historical relation of matter of fact it would not prove the point That Dives beindead and in Torment knew the affairs of this world Only he was sensible that he had given an example of voluptuousness and uncharitableness unto his brethren and that their sins would contribute unto his Torment and therefore he was solicitous to have them reclaim'd When he shall urge his example for the Invocation of Saints I will answer That you bring an ill president to confirm a Doctrine of the Church and withal when Abraham or any of the Saints in Heaven shall undoubtedly appear and commune with you you may desire their assistance Phil. Bellarmine hath one material proof that the Saints in Heaven do pray for the faithful upon earth because the Church militant and triumphant do make one mystical body whereof Christ is the head And so there g Ibid. Communio illa exigit necessario ut membra pro invicem sint sollicita mutuo se juvent must be a Communion between the members making them solicitous mutually to help one another Theoph. He might have spar'd to urge the necessary mutual assistance for we do not pray for the Saints in Heaven neither are we solicitous for them who are immutably blessed and of their affection towards us their fellow members militant upon earth we do not doubt neither of their praiers for the Church in general That she may be victorious over all her Enemies as also for the filling up the number of the Elect and their Consummation in bliss but this will not infer their distinct knowledg of things here below or make for your Doctrine of Invocation For you know the Saints militant over all the world are fellow members and mutually solicitous for one another and yet one National Church doth not invocate another in her public offices Phil. I pray give me leave to make the Inference when I have sufficiently fortified the premises you run away with the argument before it is perfect and so conclude it is invalid For you shall find that our Doctors do not only prove how the Saints in Heaven pray in general for the Church militant and for the Saints on earth but that they pray particularly for them for that is Betlarmines next position a Ibid. Sancti qui regnant in coele crant pro nobis etiam in particulari The Saints in Heaven pray for us in particular Theoph. Be pleas'd to let us here his Arguments Phil. He proves the Angels have a special charge over us in particular and pray for us and therefore much more the Saints in Heaven do so Theoph. How doth he prove his much more I doubt it will prove at length much less and the whole Argument a non sequitur Phil. His reasons seem demonstrative our Saviour saith the Saints in Heavin are as the Angels Luk. 20. vers 36. They alwaies stand in the presence of God and most affectionately love us and therefore want neither understanding or will to be assistant unto their brethren upon earth And in one regard they may surpass the Angels in a promtitude to succor us in that they have a nearer relation to us as their flesh and blood and have had experience of our dangers and sorrows and so are the rather qualified to compassionate our infirmities Theoph. Our blessed Savior shews how the Saints in Glory are like unto the Angels and equal to them in respect of their Immortality for they can dy no more and in that they neither marry nor are given in Marriage as you may observe the place but there is no demonstration the comparison should hold in all things and doubtless before the Resurrection

horns hath little strength but could he have added to them this fifth Horn That the Word of God approveth the Invocation of the dead as of the living we must have fled before it But alas all the attemts to confirm this Doctrine of your Church out of Holy Writ have prov'd so unsuccessful that some of your own Doctors have had so much Ingenuity as to acknowledg That it is not expresly delivered in Holy Scripture So a Invocatio Sanctorum non expresse traditur in Script Eccius in his Enchiridion of Catholic Confession and therefore it must pass for an unwritten Tradition whereof Martin Peresius confesseth we have b De Trad. p. 3. consid 7. Ne vestigium ante divum Cyprianum no footsteps before Cyprian Phil. Peresius gives a rational account together with others why the Holy Apostles did not lay the foundation of this Doctrine It was say they c Causa erat humilitas mod Apostolorum nese Deos facerent out of their great humility and modesty least they should appear to establish in the Church their own Apotheosis make themselves as Gods by directing the People of God to put up their Supplications after their decease to them Theoph. Methinks That which prevail'd with the Apostles not to deliver this Doctrine of the Invocation of Saints should likewise have prevail'd with the Church never to have establish'd it and without doubt had it bin according to the will of God and profitable to the Church the Holy Apostles would never have concel'd it out of modesty and humility S t Paul declares expresly to the Church of Ephesus Acts 20. 19 20. That serving God with all humility of mind he had kept back nothing that was profitable unto them And doubtless it was presumtion and pride which introduc'd this Error tho under shew of voluntary humility for if the Apostles were afraid to recommend themselves as Gods unto the People by giving them directions to pray to them after their decease the Pope who undertakes to Canonize Saints and to encourage the People of God to pray to them in spight of the Apostles humility and fear takes the boldness upon him to make them as God Phil. You make so many Excursions that you come not to the Point How do you answer the four Particulars of Bellarmins Argument Theoph. I have already cut off the four Horns with one blow He saith That if we may not pray to the Saints departed as well as desire their Praiers when living it must be for one of those four causes fore-mentioned either they are not willing or are not able to pray for us or they cannot hear our Praiers or their Intercession would be injurious unto Christs Intercession but I say is enumeration is lame and imperfect for I have shew'd a fifth reason why not because the Word of God obligeth not to one as to the other It requires that we should desire the mutual assistance of one anothers Praiers living but not after our decease all civil commerce being intercepted by the will of God between the living and the dead Phil. Do you reckon our Invocation of the Saints departed a part of civil commerce I thought it had bin a Religious act and duty Theoph. I grant Praier to be such and therefore a part of Divine Worship to be given only to God But that Invocation of Holy Men living as you call it or as I term it That pious desire and request which one Christian makes unto another that he may enjoy the benefit of his Praiers from whence you draw an Argument for Invocation after their decease that doubtless is a civil Request wherewith Christians mutually call upon and oblige one another to remember them in their Praiers So likewise the honor which Subjects yield unto their Prince presenting their Petitions with bended knees is civil And so Children begging the Blessing of their Parents these are formally Civil not Religious Acts. A good Christian indeed gives honor to his Prince and to his Parents not only upon a civil account but also Religious it being a duty requir'd in the Word of God yet the honor it self is civil the motive unto us wherefore we give it is Religious the will and command of God Phil. You are willing to involve the Discourse with subtle Notions and nice Distinctions Such honor as you give to Princes and Parents vouchsafe to the Saints in Glory begging the assistance of their Praiers upon your knees and it shall suffice Theoph. Your self caus'd this Digression You suppos'd the Invocation of Saints departed to be a Religious act and so in truth you generally make it a great part of your Religion I have shewed how the desire and request which Christians make to one another whilst they are in the Flesh mutually to be remembred in their Praiers is a civil request and therefore no sufficient ground for your Religious Invocation of the Saints in glory But at length you are content we should make the same civil Requests to the Saints in Heaven for their Praiers as to the Faithful who are living You may observe it generally such as are in the wrong will accept of any composition But we cannot grant it for this reason because Death intercepts all civil Obligations and Commerce between Persons Parents when they are dead cease to be provident for their deer Children and these expect it not from them The rich Man departed cannot relieve the poor nor lend him Money at his need You formerly did urge there was a communion between the Church Militant and Triumphant but that is mystical as Fellow-members of Christs Body But the civil communion between Brethren and Neighbors and the relation of Parents and Children Masters and Servants Princes and Subjects Husband and Wife is interrupted altogether by death and so by consequence all those acts which depend upon or flow from that communion That Children should ask their Fathers Blessing after his decease I never yet did read your Doctors have asserted Phil. I am well confirm'd by these your Digressions That notwithstanding you would appear to slight Bellarmins Argument and pretend to cut off all the four Horns at one blow by giving a general answer yet in truth you do warily decline the force of it and are not willing to come to the four Particulars whereupon he hath insisted That seeing the Saints departed are as willing and as able to help us now with their Praiers as when they were living amongst us and seeing they know our state and can hear and receive our Addresses to them and seeing their Intercession now for us is not injurious to the Intercession of Christ therefore we have as much and more reason to Invocate them now in Heaven then when they were conversant with us upon Earth Theoph. Not excluding the confutation already given I will now take these four Particulars into consideration The two first may easily be granted if there could be mutual communion between them and us

in these words h Oratione in Athanasium Do thou graciously look down upon us out of Heaven and direct this Holy People and feed and cherish us in peace and in our conflicts guide and supportus and bring us unto the same state of Glory with thy Self and such Blessed Spirits as are like Thee Theoph. Nazianzen was a great Orator and makes such Apostrophe's severally to the Saints upon whom he made his Panegyrics and yet this will not infer That he did believe they heard him or that he made this Application to them by way of Invocation no more then he did to Julian the Apostate after his decease unto whom he directs his Speech for a whole Leaf together in the close of his second Invective Nay you shall find this Orator somtimes to correct himself by an Epanor thosis in the midst of his Rhetorical Apostrophes in his first Invective against Julian in the words of the Prophet Isaiah he calls upon the Heaven and Earth to hear him a Ibid. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Hear O Heaven and give ear O Earth And then it follows Hear O Soul of Constantius the Great if there be any sense in thee of these inferior things In his Fathers Funeral Oration he saith Now he advantages the Church of God more by his Praiers then before by his Doctrine and Preaching if it be not presumtion to say so And in the Funeral Oration of his Sister Gorgonia he is more expresly doubtful Whether this honor is given to the Saints departed as to be sensible of those things that are spoken of them Phil. b Illudsi non est dubitantis sed affirmant Bellarmin takes notice of such Passages and saith Those ifs are not of one doubting but asserting as when S t Paul said to Philemon If thou count me a Partner receive him as my self ver 17. he did not doubt of Philemons affection Theoph. The Circumstances shew the contrary and Bellarmin offers no proof of his consident Assertion but only because It may be so taken in one place it must be in these If your Doctors groundless Shifts and Answers must go for Oracles you may carry all before you For instance in the first If of Nazianzen in his Apostrophe to Constantius after his decease Hear O thou Blessed Soul of great Constantius If thou hast any knowledg of these things I speak c. Dares Bellarmin suppose that Constantius did hear Nazianzen Or that he was a Blessed Soul in Heaven who was so great a Persecuter of the Orthodox Christians in his life time and Protector of the Arrians and upon this account I much wonder how this Holy Father could make such honorable mention of an Arrian Emperor as to stile him c The most famous of Princes that ever were encreasing the heritage of Christ to his power For his zeal of the Orthodox Faith he is generally stiled Gregory the Divine But here we must reckon him to be a vehement Orator and many of his Sentences must be made good only by some Figures of Rhetoric Hyperbolies Apostrophes and the like Phil. Is this your way to answer the Fathers You formerly severely censur'd this way in Bellarmin when he said Chrysostom in many places spoke like an Orator and do you now fall under the same condemnations Theoph. I have given an answer unto Bellarmins Arguments out of Nazianzen and now I make this necessary Observation to the Reader for greater caution Phil. S t Hilary liv'd in this fourth Century an eminent Bishop in France who in his Commentary upon the 129 Psalm tells us That the Angels are Presidents of Churches Theoph. He brings a strange proof of the Assertion Rev. 2. 3. from the Angels of the Churches of Asia which are generally taken by Interpretors for the Bishops of those Churches and they cannot possibly stand for the Heavenly Powers and Spirits because some Infirmities are imputed to them Rev. 2 ver 4. That the Angel of the Church of Ephesus had left his first love that he should repent and do his first works That the Angel of the Church of Laodicea was luke-warm cap. 3. 16. Phil. I pray give me leave to urge the whole Testimony of this Father he saith We may in a probable sense call the Angels The Eyes of the Lord and his Ears his Hands and his Feet for they are his Ministring Spirits And altho the Divine Nature who knoweth all things need not their information yet our infirmity in Praing to God and deserving his savor needs their Spiritual Intercession Theoph. I pray How doth the Ministery and Intercession of Angels prove the Invocation of Saints Such impertinent Quotations are only brought to fill up the number and weary the Reader Phil. Bellarmin shews how the same Holy Father in Psal 124. speaks alike of the Intercession of the Holy Apostles and Prophets Theoph. True he doth Allegorize the Mountains which stand round about Jerusalem a Nec leve praesidium in Apostolis vel Patriarchis Prophetis vel potius in Ang. to be The guard of Saints or rather saith he of Angels about Gods People But leaving S t Hilaries Allegories I pray observe what the Prophet David adds immediatly As the Mountains stand about Jerusalem so the Lord is round about his People from hence-forth even for ever And Hilary thereupon declares b Benum quidem praesidium Angeli sed melius Dei The safe-guard of the Angels is good but of God much better Mean while here is not one syllable of our Invocation of Saints or Angels but only of their Intercession and Protection And by the way you may take this note along with you That Hilary was as bitter in his Invectives and had as great an Indignation against the Emperor Constantius as you but now heard Gregory Nazianzen did extol him Phil. It is not my work to commit the Fathers I proceed in Bellarmins proofs his next out of S t Ambrose is full and without Exception We must pray unto the Angels who are our Guards and to the Saints and Martyrs whose Patronage we may challenge as being of our own Substance they can intreat for our sins who have washt away their own if any they had with their Blood These are Gods Martyrs and our Bishops Over-seers of our Life and Actions let us not c Lib. de Viduis ultra medium Obsecrandi sunt Ang. c. Obs sunt Martyres Corporis pignora blush to admit these as Intercessors for our infirmities because They when they did overcome were yet sensible of the infirmity of the body Theoph. Saint Ambrose was but a young Divine a novice and Cathechumen when he was chosen Bishop of Millam he was train'd up in Civill affairs pleading Causes as a Deputy of the Country administring justice therfore we have no teason to ground our Faith upon his dictates He speaks often piously but not alwaies Orthodoxly do you allow that passage of his in this very proof

distinction So you have in Saints worship and Image worship 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Supreme and inferior religious worship composeth the difference So Christ is the Invisible head of the Church Catholick and the Pope the visible and Ministerial So the works of the Law do not justify together with faith but good works do So you may hold two principles with the Manichees For altho God be the only Author and Creator of good things there may be any other first principle of evil things And thus we can have no standing rule and measure of Truth and Religion as long as the wit of Man shal adventure to delude them by the subtlety of a distinction Phil. How can you attain to any true knowledg of things if you take away the use of distinguishing Theoph. Not the use but the abuse of distinguishing is our greivance when subtle men elude the most evident Testimonies of the Scripture and the Fathers against them which distinctions minted in their own brains and only serving to their present purpose Phil. Our Doctors excellently distinguish in this work of Mediation Namely That Christ is the Mediator between God and Man and the blessed Saints are Mediators between us and Christ a 3 Sent. Dist. 3. qu. 2. So Bonaventure of the Blessed Virgin She is the Mediatrix between us and Christ as Christ is Mediator between us and God b l. 9. Moral Just. c. 10. Sancti apud Christum c. And so Azorius asserts of all the blessed Saints The Saints are our Advocates and Patrons with Christ and Christ with God And some of our Doctors give an excellent reason of this distinction They say Christ is not only an Advocate but also a judge examining the Merit of the supplicant and how shall a poor Sinner come unto him without an Intercessor to find Acceptance so the c Antonius 4. sum titulo 15. Deus providet nobis c. Arch-Bishop of Florence and therefore saith he God hath furnish'd us with an Advocatrix who is gentle and sweet without any mixture of sharpness according to that notable saying of S t Bernard which Antonius cites O man thou hast a secure access to God where the Mother stands before the son and the son before the father the Mother shewing her Breast and Paps and the son his Side and the Wounds unto his Father Theoph. This is a new Model of Divinity to the purpose we had thought the Love of Christ towards poor Sinners could find no paralel That the good Shep-heard needed no solicitation and mediation of others to bring home the lost sheep he came down from Heaven to save it We find he has gratiously invited the weary and heavy laden to come unto him do ye find where he puts them from him since the work of our Redemption is perfected The Apostle tells us he can have compassion of our infirmities and be touched with a fellow feeling being in all points Tempted like as we are yet without Sin And therefore we may come boldly unto the throne of grace that we may obtain Mercy Feb. 4 15. 16. That we have a Merciful and Faithful High Priest to make Reconciliation for the Sins of the People Heb. 2. 17. That he is able to save them to the uttermost that come to God by him seeing he ever liveth to make Intercession for them Heb. 7. 25 All this and much more we Read to our unspeakable Comfort but nothing of his severe Inquisition and Judging them that come to him before his second coming unto Judgment And yet I must tell you you have bin too favouroble in the discovery this Mystery of Iniquity works higher then you have Represented The blessed Virgin must not only intreat but command her Son It is a Notorious form of Praier among you d O Felix Puerpera Jure Matris impera O happy Mother upon a Mothers autority command thy Son And altho e Ibin c. 16 Qui● nostrum hoc dicit Bellarmin askt who used that Form as tho he were ignorant thereof yet as being conscious he immediately after Exenses and justifies the Praier a Si Josh 10. dicitur obedire c. For saith he if it be said Joshua the 10. The Lord obe●'d the voice of a Man why may not after some sort the Son of God be said to obey his Mother Theoph. Aliquo modo Your Doctors can make any thing good but in the first place it is not there said That the Lord obei'd the voice of Man So indeed your vulgar Translation renders it but according to the Original we read it thus b That the Lord hearkened unto the voice of a Man Josh 10. 14. And so the septuagint and if God did obey the voice of a Man yet we do not read that Joshua did command the Lord but only the Sun and Moon Sun stand thou still in Gibeon and Thou Moon in the vally uf Asalon and therefore c Jure Matris impera vpon the authority of a Mother command thy Son it was Intolerable to say so when Christ was in the Flesh and subject to his Parents much more now he being ascended into Glory You do not read that the Blessed Virgin laid any command upon her Son on Earth Phil. You may take these as high Expressions of a devout Soul manifesting her confidence in the blessed Mother to obtain any thing of her Son and Saviour Theoph. Such extatic devotion hath led many of your Church beyond all reason and Religion in their superstitious addresses to the Saints and upon this occasion given I will insist more upon your Extravagancies in the Invocation and worship of our Lady You salute Her the Queen of Heaven and Mother of Mercies and so your Doctors have assigned unto Her more then half the Kingdom with the Father As the great King Abassuerus promist unto Queen Ester d Gabriel Biel Supra Canon Missae lect 80. c. One of your Schoolmen tells us That God reserving the execution of Justice to himself hath granted to the Virgin Mother the dispensation of Grace and Mercy e Bernardinus in suo Mariali c. By another we are taught to appeal from the Bar of Gods Justice unto the Throne of Mercy of the Blessed Virgin And whereas the Apostle exhorts to come boldly unto the Throne of Grace that we may obtain Mercy The Arch-Bishop of Florence tels us That f Mariah est thronus Christi c. Mary is this throne wherein Christ rested and that it is necessary all such should be Justified and saved unto whom she turnsher favorable countenance and for whom she proves an advocate and Bernardinus further ● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 assures us That a In Christo tanquam in capite influente in Mariâ tanquam c. as Grace is in Christ as in the head and fountain so is it in Mary as in the neck transmitting So that no Grace can descend from