that point And these honest well-meaning Informers if they had imagined indeed that I did so acquit them rather should have challenged mee of contradiction than of Popery For it seemeth as much Popery to accuse the Fathers of Errors as to excuse them of Erring seeing those three IESUITES than whom scarce were ever three more eminent in the Society doe not excuse or acquit them but accuse them rather for going so farre in applauding of Free-will In this point it is plaine my meaning was that their Vnderstandings were not so darkened as their words at first apprehension may seeme to import to erre so grossely in the point as they seeme to doe nor did then and in that particular those worthie Lights of the Church of GOD faile in discerning of the Truth of GOD in that particular as to use the words of the forenamed learned Bishop they inclined contrary to Scripture unto Pelagianisme For things must bee taken and considered as they are spoken and upon what occasion and ground they are spoken If you were not so acute to conceive this indeed so honest to expresse it yet your dullest Readers would have observed it had there beene in you so much ingenuity as to have added that which ensueth in M. MOUNTAGU thus That they being to deale against fatall Necessity urged by many PATNIMS Philosophers in those dayes as also against the execrable impiety of the MANICHEES they extended the power of FREE-WILL unto the uttermost and set it upon the Tenters especially having then no cause to fear anyenemy at home unto the contrary ante mota certamina PELAGIANA There being yet no PELAGIANS sprung up in the world enemies to Grace advancers of Nature and Naturall powers beyond degree of Power and of Possibility In effect M. MOUNTAGU as touching freewill heer in this case hath said the same and no more but the same that before him Bishop MORTON did in his Appeale pag. CCII. THE occasion of this difference we learne to have beene a whirlwind of contrary Heresies wherewith in those dayes the Church of GOD was miserably afflicted Then the MANICHEES and before them the STOICALL CHRISTIANS had taught an absolute fatall Necessity of every mans Actions thereby taking from man the guilt of sinne For the overthrow of which pestilent Heresie as is confessed concerning S. CHRYSOSTOME some FATHERS did contrarily yeeld too much unto the power of will This was the occasion of their by-sliding who notwithstanding did often recover their footing and in their more intimate meditations gave direct acknowledgement of our Orthodoxall Defence Iust to an haire up and downe the same Popery that M. MOUNTAGU hath Delivered That Bishop and my poor self say one and the same thing and yet will even the Informers I dare say acquit Him of Popery why not Me as well in the selfe same case with him CHAP. IV. Private and publick doctrine differenced In what sense the Church is said to be alwaies visible The Author acquitted from Popery againe by others learned Divines Of the Church of Rome INFORMERS HE calleth the doctrine of the INVISIBILITY of the Church a private opinion no doctrinall decision nor to bee imputed unto the resolved doctrine of the Protestants Nusquam est saith hee quod nun quam videtur CHAP. V. pag. XLVIII And againe pag. L. Moderate men on both sides doe confesse that this controversie may cease MOUNTAGU MY words were onely these It may be some private opinions have run upon Invisibility of the Church But since you put me to it if there bee any such doctrine as you speak of it is a private opinion and I will now say expressely I hold that doctrine a PRIVATE opinion yet then and there I did not ponere that any had so said in terminis or runne that way but onely with restriction by a May-be of concession that some men singular from the doctrine of the Church in their owne private opinions had fallen upon and supported an Invisibilitie Now every man but your selves knowes that the doctrine of a Church Publick and Authorized is one thing and your doctrine or my doctrine and private opinion is another thing For such doctrine as you talk of I know none I acknowledge none but that of Libertines and Brownists with whom if you have any commerce intercourse or confarreation look unto it the Church of England as it detesteth them so is it for and of another straine ARTIC XIX touching the Church thus we read The VISIBLE CHURCH of CHRIST is a congregation of faithfull men in the which the pure word of GOD is preached and the Sacraments be duely ministred c. Where Church and Visible are convertible tearmes That doctrine then to which you should and would seeme to have subscribed talketh of no invisible but a visible Church tendreth no Invisibility And it is a Position drawne out from thence and published that there is a Church of CHRIST not onely invisible but also visible Though for invisible it is more than that Article specifieth yet is it most true that there is a Church also invisible which was never denied or thought upon to be denied Secondly it is also concluded thence that the visible Church is a Catholick Church So the Church is visible and the Church is invisible both which I beleeve and professe distinctly taken and as it ought to bee understood For these though seeming are not contradictory Propositions The Church is invisible in her more noble parts the Saints both regnant in heaven and militant in earth such as be secreti and occultè intus such as bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the secret hidden the reserved Ones of GOD Psal LXXXIII IV. as Iewels of price of value of account I doe also beleeve and professe a visibility of the Church on earth necessarily toto sui though not totâ se in some part or other at all times though in all parts of the world or it selfe intire at no one time Nothing visible in the amplest maner that can be is so visible that there is nothing in it or of it but is visible It never was it never shall be it is wholly impossible to bee that at some time or other there could not be found in any one part or corner of the world not any part visible of that Church Catholick The Divell never did nor ever shall so farre and fully prevaile against GOD and GOD'S Kingdome as to effect or procure such an absolute desolation And so is it true for of this onely restrainedly I spake Non est quod nusquam videtur not generally true I grant and without limitation There ever was and will bee ever upon earth a visible Church some where or other with visible cognisances marks and signes to be discerned by such as be assigned by the XIX Article to which men may repaire to heare GOD'S Word where Sacraments are ministred and may be received unto salvation where Priesthood and Ordination is and may be had according to CHRIST'S
non dicitur Qui potest facere faciat sed Omnis arbor quae non facit fructum bonum exscindetur in ignem mittetur Consilium qui libenter audierit fecerit majorem habebit gloriam Praeceptum verò qui non impleverit nisi subvenerit poenitentia poenam evadere non poterit You cannot denie this constant resolution of Antiquity Change therefore your manners or your minds Be Papists with me or Rebells without me As for mee you are like to be alone I hold it no obligation you doe therefore you are tyed to obey That commandement Matth. v. you will not denie Be you perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect Now if this be a Precept If thou wilt be perfect go sell all thou hast and give it to the poore it is a part of that perfection being named in either place But I leave you to bethinke your selves better I conclude with S. CHRYSOSTOME 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Had this beene a Law and Commandement it should have beene tendred unto him at the first it ought to have beene digested in forme of a commandement and law and not have beene brought in as it is by way of counsaile and advice For where he saith Possesse nor Silver nor Gold this speech runneth in commanding forme But when hee saith If thou wilt be perfect go and sell he speaketh it as counsailing and advising only Now to Counsaile and Command are not one and the same thing he that commandeth will have the thing commanded observed upon any hand he that counselleth and adviseth leaving it to choice and election of a man to doe or not doe it maketh him Lord and Ruler of his owne actions Thus and much more to purpose S. CHRYSOSTOME in that place if you view him If he and his fellow Ancients be Papists be it so I am content to be so accounted For I meane to be a Papist with them rather than a Noveller with you And so I proceed CHAP. XVIII Touching LIMBUS PATRUM The Dreames of Papists about Limbus Patrum related and rejected The state of mens soules after death The Place proportioned to their state The soules of the blessed Fathers before CHRISTS ascension in heavenly Palaces yet not in the third and highest heavens nor in that fulnes of joy which they have now and more of which they shall have heereafter The opinion of old and new Writers Our Canons not to be transgressed The Doctrine and Faith of the Church of England concerning the Article of CHRIST'S descent into Hell The disadvantage we are at with our Adversaries Everie Novellers Fancie printed and thrust upon us for the generall Tenet of our Church The plaine and easie Articles of our CREED disturbed and obscured by the wild dreames of little lesse than blasphemous men by new Models of Divinity by Dry-fats of severall Catechismes The Beleefe of Antiquitie The Authour and It farre from POPERY INFORMERS HOwsoever in words he denyeth Limbus Patrum yet thus he writeth The Patriarchs Prophets and Fathers that lived and died before CHRIST the Scripture resolveth that they were not there where now they are in the highest heavens and glorious there where the glorified body of CHRIST is now residing at the right hand of GOD. CHAP. XLI pag. 277. MOUNTAGU THUS hee writeth And what if he write so Why then hee upholdeth Limbus Patrum His Words and Opinion are farre asunder So said your LIMBOMASTIX concerning the Descent into Hell As CHRIST was buried so also it is to be beleeved that CHRIST went into Hell saith the Church of England Therefore hee went thither saith that Ignoránte according to this opinion to fetch up the soules of the Fathers that were not there Iust as you will have it with M. MOUNTAGU in his opinion But good Master Informers bethinke your selves go into your Studies again and look better upon your books You understand not the state and condition of Limbus Patrum nor yet the Descent of CHRIST into Hell To assure you I am for my opinion dreame you what you will otherwise and what you please absolutely of the mind of all Antiquity that the soules of the Blessed Dead separated from their bodies and Gathered as the Scriptures speake unto their Fathers before CHRISTS Resurrection from Death to Life and his Ascension into Heaven that departed hence in the hope and assurance of GODS promises and in the expectation of better things to come were not yet then in Coelo propriè dicto summo illo glorioso whereas now they are in companie of all the holy Angels with the glorified bodie of our SAVIOUR farre above all things in heaven and earth And yet for all this I am not for him that thereupon ignorantly and maliciously inferreth I hold with beleeve or conceit anie such Limbus Patrum as the Church of Rome hath fancied unto her selfe and tendred unto her Profelites drawne and derived out of that negative opinion of Antiquity ill understood and ill applyed As if because they were not so in heaven per omnia as now they are they must needs be so in hell as they conceive them to be the state whereof is imagined this LIMBUS Patrum is so called by the Papists à subjecto contento which they doe imagine to be the uppermost Fringe as the word signifieth or the Verge of Hell For as if some of their Masters had beene sent thither to take a survay thereof they doe quarter out that infernall Clime into foure Regions all agreeing in the particulars though with some difference about the quartering and confining That the Regions are foure they all agree Hell properly so called of the Damned Purgatory Limbus puerorum and Limbus patrum For the uppermost and lowermost they all agree but differ about the site of Purgatory and Limbus puerorum they cannot resolve which is the uppermost of these two In Hell of the Damned they imagine and rightly eternall losse of happinesse in exclusion from GOD as also most insufferable eternall paine In Purgatory there is some question whether the losse be partiall or not for they are conceited to have at least somtimes the intervening society of holy Angels who cannot but impart unto them some glimmering of heavenly consolation and yet the pain though not eternal but only temporary is set down to bee equall unto Hell torments Unto the Limbus Infantum they have fastned eternall losse and deprivation of GOD without sensible paine in Limbus patrum temporarie losse but no paine Limbus puerorum and Hell of the Damned in their opinions endure for ever Purgatory shall cease and be no more at the day of judgement but for Limbus patrum the date thereof is and was long since expired Now there is no such mansion or habitation of soules they are resolved but what is become of it or how imployed they are not resolved Some imagine it now all one with that Limbus Infantum And peradventure there was need to have the roome
very Divell within the bounds of worship as well as that cautelous Doctrine of DURAND that Images are to be worshipped improperly in as much as They doe put men in minde of the persons by them represented who are then adored before the Images as if they were then really present there Or as that honest conclusion of MARTIN AIALA Nemo in Ecclesiâ dicit qui rectè sentit Sanctos deberi adorari sed venerari whether in themselves or their representations But Doctrine without limitation of YOUR pointeth you unto and putteth you backe unto no other but the precedently remembred Doctrine of Dulia and Latria My words are If this you call DULIA and no more we admit it we give it too But whatsoever you say howsoever you qualifie the the thing with gentle words terming it DOULIA or HYPERDOULIA we say in your practice you far exceed and give them that honour which you call LATRIA and is indeed a part of DIVINE respect and WORSHIP so doe not we Let practice and doctrine goe together and we agree that is give them no LATRIA formall or interpretative and we agree CHAP. XXIII The Church of Engl. condemneth not the historicall use of Images The Book of Homilies containes a generall godly doctrine yet is not in every point the publicke dogmaticall resolved doctrine of the Church The Homily that seemeth to condemn all making of Images is to bee understood with a restriction of making them to an unlawful end Many passages therein were fitted to the present times and to the conditions of the people that then were The finall resolution of this controversie INFORMERS ALL directly contradicteth the doctrine of the Church of England in the Booke of Homilies MOUNTAGU YOu enlarge too much for all For in your opinion doth the English Church condemn the Historicall or civill use of Images which yet is a part of that all It doth not in practice all the world knoweth that nor yet in Precept or Doctrine that I know Shew me that ponam manum meam super os Men as learned as anie of your Side no disparagement to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and selfe-conceit are I doe assure you of a contrary minde I have named Bishop MORTON alreadie unto you And yet were it not so you shew no great wisedome in that Limitation which your selves put unto my contradicting the Church of England namely in saying that I doe it directly For where can you finde in any writings of mine expresse words against any one point established or delivered in the authorised doctrine of the Church of England and words are not direct which be not expresse Thirdly to come unto the issue you name the Homilies and mean I take it the second Tome of Homilies in the Sermon against the perill of Idolatry If you had vouchsafed us any proofs of your assertions we should have gone directly to worke with your allegations but because you take a rounder course to tender every thing in Magisteriall Dictates wee must shoote at Rovers after you and come up to you as conveniently as we may I answer then first that I willingly admit the Homilies as containing certaine godly and wholesome exhortations to move the people to honour and worship Almighty GOD but not as the publick dogmaticall resolutions confirmed of the Church of England The XXXIII Article giveth them to containe godly and wholesome Doctrine and necessary for these times which they may doe though they have not dogmaticall positions or doctrine to be propugned and subscribed in all and every point as the Books of Articles and of Common Prayer have They may seeme secondly to speake somewhat too hardly and stretch some sayings beyond the use and practice of the Church of England both then and now and yet what they speake may receive a faire or at least a tolerable construction and mitigation well enough For you have read peradventure it is not unlikely that you have heard by relation how strangely some of the ancientest Fathers do speake and how they hyperbolize sometimes in some points in their popular Sermons which in dogmaticall Decisions they would not doe nor avow the doctrine by them so delivered resolutivè as in case of Free-will of Invocation of Saints and others S. CHRYSOSTOME especially speaketh strangely of the Blessed Eucharist as good Popery 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as ever Papist conceived of Transubstantiation or orall manducation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 To. VI. pa. 407. Then Angels assist the Priest at the Altar the whole troopes of Heavenly Powers cry aloud To. VI. pa. 46. and To. V. pa. 528. Dost thou imagine that at that time thou conversest with man Sure it is a thought of a stonie heart to thinke that thou art then upon the earth and not rather following the Angels in their Quires and Tom. V. pag. 511. Know you not that this Table is replenished with fire such and so consuming that unlesse GOD'S grace assisted powerfully men could not endure but should be consumed with the violent heate thereof Tom. 6. pag. 16. And a little before home to the purpose a man would think for Transubstantiation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 When thou beholdest our LORD SACRIFICED there and the Priest standing by the Sacrifice and praying ever it and every one present BEREDDED with that most precious BLOOD dost thou suppose thou conversest then with man or hast thy station upon earth Which speeches cannot all of them possibly bee true in the literall sense no not in the opinion of the Church of Rome and were none of them literally true no not in the opinion of S. CHRYSOSTOME himselfe Now after this enforcing sort may our Homilies speake and bee so interpreted Things are not ever of one and the same man touching one and the same thing at different times unto distinct Auditories upon divers occasion spoken after one and the same way In verie Scripture there are many Hyperbolicall sayings that being literally taken will not hold weight at the ballance of the Sanctuary In the writings of the Fathers as appeareth by that of S. CHRYSOSTOME there are dogmaticall conclusions for resolution in points and retoricall inforcements to edifie affections disposed for and according to the Auditory Now our Homilies are all popular Sermons fitted unto the capacitie and conditions of the common people to edifie them to worke upon them ever strong in passion but weake in understanding The will is more in them to bee edified than the judgement the consciences and hearts of men to be wrought upon for good life and conversation than the understanding and apprehension for any peece of knowledge and that also disposed accordingly as fitted for times for persons and different occasions as they doe or may happen As the ancient Fathers of the primitive times had verie few or no Churches at all at least of note dignitie or of receipt because they lived in times of fierce persecution and were seldome or few of them stationarie but compelled subindè