successe to the Preaching of the Gospell as thanks be to his holy Majesty it hath had in many kingdomes since Martin Luthers time and shall have every day more and more ANSWER This which you now mention is well spoken and not amisse For true it is that at the fixt verse the second part of the Chapter beginneth wherein the downfall of Antichrist is proclamed by three preaching Angels the first whereof is said to fly through the midst of Heaven having an everlasting Gospell to Preach By which and those other Angels following we are not to understand any coelestiall Angel in respect of the accomplishment of this Prophesie but rather some speciall Ministers of God whom the Lord stirred up as his instruments to work a reformation in the Church And yet I deny not but that Saint John saw the representation of this in that heavenly theater wherein his visions were represented to him in the seeming shape and person of a celestiall Angel which was but to shew that at the time appointed God intended the accomplishment of this and the like appearances by such instruments as were pre-ordained for the same purpose DIALOGUE Gent. I am glad to heare this I pray you goe on to shew where the meaning of Christ is perverted Min. On Michaelmasse day the twelfth chapter from the seventh verse to the thirteenth is appointed to be read for an Epistle it being no Epistle but a prophesie c. ANSWER The Corinthians you know are termed Pauls Epistle written in his heart an Epistle for that they were in stead of an Epistle as Theophylact observeth So this Scripture howsoever not an Epistle properly may stand in stead of an Epistle For the denomination given to this and other portions of Scripture taken out of the Prophets Acts and Revelation is retained in respect of the greater part which is taken out of the Epistles and not because they be in themselves Epistles properly which why it should be quarrelled with is more then needeth But you go on and tell us That it is a Prophesie of a battell fought in Heaven between Michael and his Angels and the Dragon and his Angels and of the victory that Michael and his Angels had over the Dragon and his Angels and of the casting of the Dragon and his Angels out of Heaven all which is true and not at all to be denyed DIALOGUE Gent. What is meant by Heaven Min. By Heaven is meant not the highest heaven but the Church of Christ militant here on earth ANSWER Concerning this warre in Heaven you speak well enough For in respect of the vision seen it was shewed in that heaven or heavenly theater where Saint John saw the representation of these things as I think need not be denyed and not in heaven it self For in heaven properly taken there is no fighting the warfare of those who inhabite there is quite ended they are all triumphant they rest in joyfull peace But in respect of the accomplishment there is cause enough to grant that we are pointed either to the Church of God which is a kinde of heaven upon earth or else to that heaven whither the womans Childe was taken up after his mother had brought him forth for the Dragon in the Imperiall Dragons or heathen persecuting Emperours raigned over the Church till then I mean till Constantine subdued them who hanged up on high over the gates of his Palace a Table wherein was painted a Dragon which lay thrust through with a dart under his own and his subjects feet DIALOGUE Min. By Michael and his Angels are meant Christ and his true followers especially the faithfull Preachers of the Gospel ANSWER This is also reasonably well expounded but not full enough For the accomplishment it selfe sheweth that Constantine is chiefly to be comprehended amongst those of Michaels Angels who fought with the Dragon and his Angels as if I were to write purposely of these things I could shew at large DIALOGUE Gent. What is meant by the Dragon and his Angels Min. By the Dragon and his Angels are meant the Devill and the heathen persecuting Emperours and the Popes ANSWER Not the Popes for this was a vision of what was done before their times The vision which belongs to them is in the next chapter and in the account of times came not in thus soone In the rest you speak right enough For though that old Serpent which is called the Devill and Sathan be the Dragon primarily yet neverthelesse the instruments of his fury are secondarily termed Dragons too as well as he for which we may see the Scriptures in Jer. 51.34 Ezek. 29.3 Psal 74.13,14 Esa 27.1 and chap. 51.9 And so also for his Angels not onely the infernall Hags of Hell are meant but even the wicked men who were of his side and helped to fight against the truth for which we may likewise see the Scriptures in Pro. 17.11 Revel 2.10 and chap. 9.14 DIALOGUE Gent. What is meant by the Battell Min. By the battell is meant persecutions raised by the heathen persecuting Emperours and the Popes and the popish Princes against the Christian Religion and the professors thereof ANSWER You extend again the Vision too farre in bringing it down so low as the Popes and popish Princes For it is a Prophesie of a warre begun and finished before the Dragon went forth to make warre with the remnant of the womans seed which warre was indeed in the dayes of Antichrist and is found to have relation first of all to those cruell warres of the Beast against the Albigenses and Waldenses together with all such as were if any were called by other name professing the true worship of Christ and hath hitherto continued still against the Saints both in Martyrdomes Inquisitions Massacres and the like but the horns of the beast falling from him by degrees shall at the last give an end to this warre and being become partners with the Saints as many of them already are shall turne their forces against the Beast as in the 17. Chapter may be seene And for your better instruction you may see it in the end of the 12. Chapter how that S. John saith he saw the Dragon standing upon the Sea-shore or upon the sand of the Sea which was not onely a good while after the Battell that he had with Michael but was also for the raising up of the Beast to doe that which you here mention to be done by the Popes and Popish Princes DIALOGUE Gent. What is meant by the victory that Michael and his Angels bad over the Dragon and his Angels Min. By the victory is meant the victories that Christ gave to Constantine the Christian Emperour and that he hath doth and daily will give to Christian Princes fighting his battell against Antichrist and his partakers and to the faithfull Preachers against false Teachers ANSWER Here still you faile by carrying the accomplishment lower then the dayes of Constantine The successe of Christian Princes against Antichrist
of the Prophet Mich For in Mic. 5.2 we read that Bethlem was the least Minima existendo in ducibus Jehudae and yet in Matth. 2.6 we finde it turned Thou Bethlem not the least the one regarding the quantity of the place the other the dignity So in this of the Psalmist They were not obedient is true if it be applyed to Pharoah and the Aegyptians although not of such an exact truth as the very letter of the originall verity may import by referring the speech to Moses and Aaron as the most doe or to the Signes wrought in Aegypt as Junius doth For then the righter reading is They were not disobedient So that you see both upon what ground this reading standeth and upon what ground it may be altered if authority think fitting so to doe unto whom I leave it DIALOGUE Gent. You said that the Service-book doth pervert the meaning of Christ in diverse places of the Revelation I pray you shew me some of those places Min. The fourteenth Chapter is appointed to be read on Childermasse day after a Popish manner for an Epistle of purpose to pervert the meaning of Christ ANSWER What an uncharitable and a rash accusation have we here I think that unlesse the Devill himself should interpret intentions a worse interpretation could seldome have been hatched DIALOGUE Gen What was the meaning of Christ in that Chapter Min. The meaning of Christ in that Chapter was and now is to shew that in time of greatest persecutions when the heathen persecuting Emperours and after them the Popes did rage most against the Christian Religion and professours thereof Christ had his * In his Church I think you mean else there will be scarce sence in the words Church though invisible 144000. preserved by him and kept chaste and undefiled * This with I think you meant from with spirituall fornication of Idolatry ANSWER These 144000 were the particular true members of the Church militant in the daies of Antichrist set down in a mysterious number not easie to be understood and were without question that seed of the woman mentioned chap. 12.17 with whom the Beast should make war chap. 13.7 yea these were all those faithfull people of God who from the beginning of Antichrists reign which began about the year of our Lord 606 as is not improbable professed the truth even untill the daies of the Reformation of the Church afterwards mentioned at which time these first fruits day by day were more more increased yea these being contemporary with the beast do plainly teach that God had many thousands of his true worshippers even in the darkest daies of the great Antichrist when there seemed very few or none remaining For the Papacy creeping in was like a botch or filthy soare by which the faire face of the woman in Chapter the twelfth was over spread The heathen persecuting Emperours were before this even whilest the said woman glorious in the Primitive times was cloathed with the Sunne Crowned with a Crown of twelve Stars and trampled the Moon under her feet Nor doth this but likewise seem to be parallell to those dayes of Elijah when there were 7000 scattered throughout the tribes of Israel who were unknown For so in these times there were many thousands some in one Country some in another who did distaste the Idolatries Superstitions of Rome and with these the Lamb was present Wherefore from hence we may easily give answer to that question which the Papists to no purpose have often urged again us saying Where was your Church before Luther It was amongst them like an handfull of wheat in a Mountain of chaffe For this place as in the 12 chapt before teacheth that the Church hath had her latency and yet was not extinguished no more then the Sunne when he is hid by the covering of some darke or thick cloud For look by how much the want of sincerity and increase of the Popes usurped tyranny prevailed by so much was the Orthodox Church being true professours of the primitive purity obscured and in respect of a greater multitude so suppressed and clouded over that a man would think there were scarce any such to be found at all But true it is they were but respectively invisible and therefore persecuted by the Popish faction through whom their faith was not seldome sealed with blessed martyrdome And this chiefely is all that is meant by the latency of the true Church and flying of the woman into the wildernesse DIALOGUE Gent. How is the meaning of Christ perverted Min. By misapplying that to Children slain by Herod which was written of Christians persecuted and slain by the heathen persecuting Emperours and Popes Gent. Why doth the Pope pervert the meaning of Christ by misapplying that to the Children slain by Herod which was written of Christ and his Church persecuted by the heathen Emperours and the Popes Min. The Pope and so many of our Lord Bishops as are popish doe pervert the meanning of Christ by causing that chapter to be read on Childermasse day of purpose to keep weak Christians in blindnes so as they shall not be able to give an answer to the Papists when they shall aske them where their Religion and Church was an hundred years a goe before Martin Luthers time ANSWER Here 's still more of your little charity but me thinks you rather might have said that as 144000. were seen standing with the Lamb upon mount Sion so the blessed Innocents as on this day murthered by cruell Herod were witnesses to the Lamb not by speaking but by suffering for Christ and so both his name and his Fathers name were written in their foreheads and their voice was like the sound of many waters and as the voice of a great thunder because in Rama was there a voice heard lamentation weeping and great mourning and their crying was a song a dolefull ditty to their Parents eare Rachel weeping for her Children and would not be comforted because they were not but yet a pleasant and pretious ditty in Gods eare so sweet as the voyce of Harpers harping with their harps Nor was this their sighing but as a new song because they were the first fruits of Martyrs unto God They may be also said to follow the Lamb whithersoever be went Cant. 5.10 because as the Lamb was white and ruddy so they were white in their innocency being Virgins in their chastity without any guile in their mouth or guile in their life but in respect of their blood-shed for the Lamb they were bloody red and bleeding So then you see that although the Epistle was Historically true in what was afterwards as in the former answer I have explained yet fit to be read on that day which you call Childermasse day in allusion to what was then DIALOGUE Gent. What other meaning had Christ in that Chapter Min. His meaning was to shew that in his good time he would give a free passage and good