of his fellowe members here on earth And why is he not of charitie bound as well to pray for them And if he be why are not those members in heauen as well or haue not they also receiued of God some giftes If they haue why are not they of charitie bound as well or doth not the Scripture say plainly the Christes friendes in heauen do reioyce with his penitentes in earth How then coulde you pretend Luc. 15. as though the mutuall offices of loue whereby one member hath compassion with another can by no meanes touch the state of the dead Is not the state of the holy Angels now the state also of some that be dead Be not they also among Christes friendes in heauen So much you say touching the Communion of the Church militant here on earth For you haue another besides it which you call the communion of the whole body that you make to be the participation of life from Christ the head If that be all then is there no Communion For what communion were it betwéene the members of your naturall body if they did onely receiue life from your head and could not vse their said life to profit one another but liued euery one to himselfe alone How much better had you bene to follow D. Allens most proper and true discription of it then to vtter thus you know not what at the least if you could not correct him yet you could belye him as to say that he will haue other workes and wayes of saluation beside the bloud of Christ He saith that in this Communion all workes and all wayes of saluation are common to the whole body al grounded in the bloud of Christ But of any beside the bloud of Christ he saith not Yea it is clene contrarie to that which he saith ¶ The .13 Chapter or Conclusion That in his two writings against D. Allen there is yet stuffe ynough to make another Booke as bigge as this to the further discredite of his partie THus at the length with the helpe of God I am come to the end And yet the Reader must vnderstande that I finde in this man such store of this stuffe as would suffice to make another volume as big as this partly by enlarging these two last Chapters with many more of his like contradictions errors or ignorances for all the former Chapters be full freyted partly by making many new Chapters vpon new matters As one to shewe howe he behaueth himselfe in all places where he chargeth either the Catholikes doctrine or D. Allen himselfe with contradictions Another to lay together all his falsifications of the Scriptures Doctors and D. Allen by adding diminishing or chaunging their wordes Another of his most impudent facing lyes without any colour of truth Another of his detestable raylings not only at D. Allen but also at the old Doctors and at Rome and at the whole Churche which he can not auoide the Scriptures with his owne confession are so plaine for it but it is the true Church his owne Mother and Spouse of Christ Another of his ridiculous answeres to many of D. Allens Demaundes sometimes like him that answered a pokefull of plumes whē he was demaunded the way to London sometimes to answere the very same thing that is in question c. Moreouer diuers others chapters yet of Purgatorie about his answeres to D. Allens allegations to sée whether he haue so answered thē as I haue here answered al his allegations against it yea against any other Article of ours One of those Chapters might be to gather all the Scriptures alleaged by D. Allen the auncient Fathers before him and Fulkes answeres vnto them with my replies which are e dispersed in this booke like as in the 8. chapter I haue gathered al Fulkes scriptures answered thē Another of such bookes in antiquitie as he denyeth namely the workes of S. Dionysius Areopagita and the Constitutions of the Apostles by S. Clement because he could not otherwise auoide their plaine testimonies for prayer for the dead they also liuing euen in the Apostles time and familiarly with the Apostles Of which bookes notwithstanding there are such probations as can not possibly be answered Reade the Preface of Fr. Turrianus in his new edition of those Constitutions and the Preface of Mat. Galenus ad Areopagitica Cop. Dial. 2. ca. 5. as also the Preface and Scholies in the Gréeke edition by Morelius at Paris Anno. 1562. In another Chapter I might shew how vainely he laboureth to answer certaine testimonies of the other Doctors considering that he graunteth other testimonies of the very same Doctors them selues or of their seuerall times to be so euident for it that they can not be answered for which cause also he passeth by many of them with silence as that S. Augustine in one place prayed for his mothers soule and yet to stand with D. Allen about other places of his that they proue it not as though Doctors opinion and iudgement being confessed there néedeth any more to doe to be made about his sayings And yet it is nothing also which he answereth to those other places as I haue shewed in very many of them Another might be to lay together all D. Allens argumentes or reasons for it with my replies to Fulkes answeres such as I haue made in diuers places of this booke In another I could shewe that Fulke hath made no answere lightly to these Scriptures Doctors or reasons but D. Allen did foresée it afore hand warned the Reader of it and made so iust a replie vnto it as standeth still vpright euen after that Fulke hath done the worst he could Another might be to shew out of Iustinus Martyr Ireneus and Clement Alexandrinus in how many things they also make with vs most euidētly as in nothing against vs because he doth so oftē require vs to proue prayer for the dead by any of them as though he would yéeld to them although he will not to their fellowes wheras in déede he excepteth against them no lesse as I haue shewed then against the rest Another might be by occasion of his zeale for Caluine Luther and such other his Maisters and fellowes to shewe more copiously that they are worthily charged not onely with those shamefull opinions by D. Allen but also that they may be likewise charged with very many moe no lesse yea and much more shamefull then those These matters are such as being so handled would worke the further discredite of Fulke and of his side and yet being no more handled then alreadie doe leaue no blotte in our side no nor so much as in D. Allen particularly For which cause I minde not neither hereafter to prosecute them vnlesse I haue greater occasion geuen then yet I sée But presently I omitted them to auoide more prolixitie and specially because in this booke I tooke in hand to defend not D. Allen but the Church and therefore whatsoeuer
praye you syr is all Montanisme that Tertullian hath in his Booke De anima and in so many other Bookes which he wrote beyng a Montanist then what article of our Créede almost is not Montanisme Euen in those fewe lynes that you cite he hath Immortalitie of the soule Resurrection of the flesh and that which is his scope in the same place to wit for you séeme not to vnderstande it the soules suffering in her betweene this and the Resurrection If otherwise therefore some be trueth though some other bée Montanisme what shoulde you haue done but to looke in Epiphanius in Augustine and such others what were the heresies of Montanus and not finding prayer for the dead amongst them to haue refrained your rashnes You knew this well inough therfore notwithstanding your bragges to proue it c. you confesse that it is but your owne lyght suspicion Pur. 417. saying And therfore it is not otherwise to be thought but that the Montanistes added to the abuse in the Church afore also prayers for the spirites of them that were dead wherof Tertullian maketh mētion in his bookes De Castitate De Monogamia which were both written to heretikes of his secte and by those prayers laboureth to proue his Montanisme to wit that Second mariages are not lawfull And againe And therefore it may well be Pur. 263. that all that Tertullian speaketh of prayers and oblations for the dead was onely in the conuenticles of the Montanistes All in Tert. is Montanisme that Cypr. doth not mention And this coniecture you say seemeth the more probable not because it is by any imputed to Montanus but because Cyprian which was afterward a Catholike Byshop in the same Citie where Tertullian some time had lyued maketh no mention of prayers for the deade A goodly cause and yet in déede Cyprian maketh such mention thereof as D. Allen alleageth him Pur. 239. Infra pag. that your selfe doe say there This place of Cyprian hath more collour but yet not so cleare for Purgatorie as M. Allen would seeme to make it And when you haue all done you sticke fast in the lyme But this by the waye Againe you vtter your suspition Pur. 419. saying Finally it appeareth that the faithfull in Tertullians time c. allowed no Prayers for the dead And yet of this least for lacke of courage so great a verse shoulde geue vs so much as a fillip though you haue bene so vncertaine in your premisses you must néedes be certaine in your conclusion notwithstanding and say to vs Therefore Aerius was not the first that helde our opinion although Epiphanius and Augustine say it neuer so muche but Montanus before him was the first that helde your opinion throughly against the Catholikes of his time Oblations for the dead And so much of prayers for the dead But because Aerius denied not onely the profite of them but also of oblations for the dead and was no lesse for that also condemned of the Church you must take paynes to quit him of that heresie likewise and to charge the Church rather that condemned him yea the Church long before he was borne Thus then you say speaking of the times of Tertullian Montanus before him Pur. 417.418.419 The Church then had oblations for the dead by peruerse emulation of the Gentils and yet they were but oblations of thanks giuing You go about to proue it a litle after saying And that the practise of the Churche for oblations for the dead at the yerely day of their death were taken from the Gentiles it appeareth by this that Tertullian counteth them of all one origen to witte of the Apostles tradition with the oblations pro Natalitijs that is for the birth days And if this be not inough Beatus Rhemanus you say a Papist and a great antiquary doth confesse it affirming that by the Canons of the Nicene Councell and other Councels whiche he hath seene in Libraries those oblations pro Natalitijs with other superstitions that Tertullian fathereth vpon tradition of the Apostles were abrogated After this you be bolde to crowe agaynst those auncient times and to say amongst many other corruptions which they tooke of the Gentiles and Heretikes So they tooke oblations for the dayes of death and birth of the Gentiles He is a poore antiquarie which knoweth not what Natalitia were in olde time and still are to wit the dayes of Martyrs Natalitia so called because they were then after many sore pangs deliuered out of their mother the militant Churches wombe and borne vnto the life ioy of the world to come Which mother of theirs and ours vsed therfore alwayes and stil vseth Ioan. 6. for ioy that a man is borne to heauen to offer from yere to yere vpon the dayes of their Martyrdome the oblation or sacrifice of the Altar For any other of her children she offereth also the same oblation vpon the day of his death and so forth vpon his yeres Mindeday yere by yere but not with such ioy but rather mourning with them and for them to get them comfort knowing that though they also be borne into the worlde to come yet it may be crying for a time as all children into this world and not laughing by and by as the glorious Martyrs And these two sortes are the oblations that Tertullian speaketh of saying Oblationes pro defunctis pro natalitijs Tertul. de Coro mil. Cypr. Epi. 37.34 anima die facimus We make oblations for the dead and for the byrthes of Martyrs vpon their yeres day S. Cyprian likewise We celebrate the passions and dayes of Martyrs with an yerely commemoracion We celebrate oblations and sacrifices for their commemorations And in See Molanus de Martyrolog◠ca. xv after Martyrol vsuardi Aug. in ps 118. in res all Martyrologies you may sée them called Natalitia or Natales S. Paulinus hath left verses that he wrote ten yeres together vpon the Natalis of S. Felix S. Augustine shewing that the olde persecutors could not hurt the Church but rather that they did much good agaynst their willes amongst other vtilities as that the whole earth is clad in purple by the bloud of Martyrs Heauen is all in flowers by the garlandes of Martyrs Churches are decked with the Relikes of Martyrs Often cures are done by the merites of Martyrs hath also to our purpose and saith Insignita sunt tempora Natalitijs Martyrum Times are notably marked with the birthdayes of Martyrs Orig. li. 3. in Iob. Finally Origen saith expresly the place is often alleaged by your selfe Nos itaque non natiuitatis c. We do not celebrate the day of birth into this world considering that it is the entrie into dolours and temptations but we celebrate the day of death as being the laying off of all dolours and profligation of all temptations Pamel in Cyp. ep 34 And therefore it litle forceth what your
of Peter or of Stephanus his successor and a most glorious Martyr They thought that they had reason and Scripture on their side and the Pope nothing but authoritie and custome And therevpon when he had written and commaunded to the contrarie contra scripsisset atque praecepisset they made much a doe for a while and in anger as S. Augustine writeth poured out words against him But in the end Au. de bap con Dona. li. 5. ca. 23 25. when they must néedes eyther yéelde or be Schismatikes because he would tolerate them no longer they did like Catholike men they conformed their new practise for all their Councels both in Phrigia and in Africa to the old custome that the Pope obserued as I noted here in the 5. Dem. pag. 272. And at the last the Nicene Councel also gaue voyce with the Pope and condemned the Donatists who pretended to folowe S. Cyprian of Heresie for their obstinacie Therfore these are two notable examples of vnitie with S. Peters chayre as a thing most necessarie And generally al other Catholike writers that you do here cap. 9. pag. 218. or can alleage as it were against that Sée did sticke vnseparably to that Sée Aug. epist 166. Which S. Augustine for that cause calleth Cathedram vnitatis The Chayre of vnitie in which he saith God hath placed Doctrinam veritatis the doctrine of veritie But you for al this haue found a place in S. Hierom to breake this bond For you say vpon it Lo Syr here is Pur. 374. Hier. Euag. Hovv agreeth this vvith him selfe here cap. i. and ij a Churche and Christianitie and a rule of trueth without the Bishop of Rome without the Church of Rome yea and contrary to the Church of Rome Notably gathered For he saith the cleane contrarie Nec altera Romanae vrbis Ecclesia altera totius orbis existimanda est We muste not thinke that there is one Church of the Citie of Rome another of all the world But both is one And why because the Galles and the Brytons and Affrica and Persia and the Orient and India and all the Barbarous Nations Vnum Christū adorant vnam obseruant regulam veritatis Do worship the one Christ do obserue the one rule of trueth and so be not diuided from the one Church by any Schisme nor by any Heresie So perfect was the vnitie of all Catholikes at that time which agréeth handsomly with your imaginations of local yea vniuersall corruptions here cap. 3. Now in this vnitie of trueth yet was there diuersitie of vsages In Rome a Priest was ordeined at the Deacons witnesse which is now obserued euery where Therupon and specially for the great estimation of the Archdeacons some Deacons thought them selues higher in order then Priests S. Hierom saith therfore Quid mihi profers vrbis consuetudinem c. What bring you me the custome of the Citie If authoritie be sought the world is greater then the Citie And who doubteth but the vsages of the whole Church in vnitie be of greter authoritie then the priuate custome of Rome alone He telleth them also that a Bishop of the meanest Citie is eiusdem Sacerdotij of the same order as the Bishop of Rome of Constantinople of Alexandria And consequently that a Priest who by his order may do all things that be of order sauing onely giuing of orders is of another maner of order then a Deacon All this is most true and much for vs nothing for you You haue also a few textes of Scripture against this head of the Churches vnitie But by the argument ab authoritate negatiue which your owne Logike condemned here cap. 8. pag. 134. I would desire none other place in al the Scripture Ar. 29. c. but Eph. 4 of Apostles Euangelistes Prophets Pastors and Teachers And especially seing the Apostle both there and 1. Cor. 12. by these offices proueth the vnitie of mind he acknowledgeth no Pope as one supreme head in earth which might be very profitable as the Papists say to mainteine this vnitie Which he would in no wise haue omitted Pur. 450. c. Againe We beleue that the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour vpon earth but Christ vnto whom all power is giuen in heauen and earth Mat. 28. Supreme head and chiefe gouernour be termes of your owne schole Belike therfore you would as a Puritane pull down also your owne setting vp specially * Suppose also one Christian king or Emperour to raigne sometime as far as the Church reacheth considering that Kings or Quéenes be no more then Popes named among S. Paules officers And truely you might also as an Anabaptist pull downe all Gouernours no lesse then the chiefe by that reason of Christes power ouer all You might also denie Euangelistes and Pastors which are named Ephe. 4. because they are omitted 1. Cor. 12. Likewise Powers Healers Helpers Gouernments Tongues Interpreters which are named 1. Cor. 12. with Apostles Prophets and Teathers because they are omitted Ephes 4. I must often say you vnderstande not the Scripture you do so often vtter your ignorance Our Sauiour did say after his Resurrection to his Apostles All power is giuen to me in heauen and earth to signifie that he might with good authoritie cōmit what power to thē he would inferring thervpon Ite ergo Go ye therefore and teach and baptize Eche of the tvvelue had Apostolike povver ouer all all Nations And to one of them singularly Feede my Lambes and my sheepe Wherefore S. Paule also in those two places doth say that all diuersitie of giftes and offices is Secundum mensuram donationis Christi according to the measure that it pleased Christ to giue to euery one and the holy Ghost to diuide to euery one as him pleaseth Therefore no cause why the lesser should enuy the greater or the greater despise the lesser Schismatically but all in vnitie content them selues with Christes distribution specially béeing so made by him for the necessitie and good of the whole He had therefore in suche places to expresse the diuersitie of greater and lesser but not necessarily of the greatest and least And yet to stoppe such Hereticall mouthes he saith 1. Cor. 12. expresly Non potest caput dicere pedibus The head vnder Christ can not say to the feete you are not necessarie vnto me Also Ephe. 4. in the name of Apostles he includeth the Successours of the Apostle S. Peter whose Sée for that cause is called The Apostolike See in singuler maner and their Decrees and Actes estéemed of Apostolike authoritie in all antiquitie I say of S. Peters authoritie to whose Chayre cōparing it with the Chayre of Carthage S. Augustine doth ascribe Apostolatus principatum The principalitie of Apostleship Apostolicae Cathedrae principatum Au. de bap con Dona. li. 2. ca. 1. Epist 162. The principalitie of the Chayre Apostolike which saith he hath alwayes florished in the Romane Church All this considered no reasonable man
their liues as by the storie it is certayne The other that neither these afore their appearing were secrete Protestantes or Heretikes but open Papistes or Catholikes as I noted before of Luther And so he hath not yet found his Chimera or inuisible Church 20 To bring her againe into open light Ar. 16.96 Which is now brought to passe in our dayes Contra From the yere of our Lord 1414. Ar. 36. being the time of the Councell of Constance the bright beames of the Gospell haue shined in the world 21 The Reuelation of Antichrist with the Churches flight into the wildernes was An. 607. when Bonifacius the third c. Ar. 38.36.16 For vntill then the mysterie of iniquitie was preparing for his reuelation and cōming and for the Generall defection Contra Ar. 16. She hath not decayed there in the wildernes but bene always preserued vntil god should reueale Antichrist which is now brought to passe in our dayes 22 The Churches being in the wildernes was Ar. 27.95 to be out of the sight knowledge of the wicked Contra speaking of the same space She was narrowly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a long season Againe Although it were vnknowen to the Papistes yet it was in Italie when Marsilius of Padua preached in Fraunce when Waldo in England whē Wickleue in Bohemia when Hus and Ierom of Prage did florish Why all these were well knowen to the Papistes Ar. 80. 23 A rule of the Logicians No man knoweth a relatiue except he know the correlatiue thereof Therefore though Christ had a bodie in earth yet could it be knowen of none but such as knew Christ the head of that bodie of whom the Papistes were ignorant Ar. 96. Contra Our Church is now againe brought to light and knowlege of the world So that now bylike the Papistes know Christ Pur. 450. Ar. 77.79.80 or the Logicians rule is verified onely for the time of the Churches being in the wildernes according as in other places he moderateth the matter saying We beleeue that the Church is not alwayes knowen to the wicked vpon earth Pur. 405. Ar. 95.82.74.80 24 We beleeue that the vniuersall Church is not seene at all of men because it is in heauen Contra Our Church when it was most hidden might rightly be called Catholike that is vniuersall c. Here cap. 10. Dem. 6. And whereas you say that no man aliue could name the place where it was you make an impudent lye For although it were vnknowen to the Papistes and enemies thereof yet was it knowen to the true members thereof Pur. 377. 25 And as for our Mother Church is no certaine place or companie of men in any one place vpon earth but Ierusalem which is aboue is mother of vs al. Contra c Ar. 95.79.82.106 That no man aliue could name the place where it was is an impudent lye It was in Italy when Marsilius preached c. Vt supra in contrad 22. c Ar. 95.79.82.106 Chrs s t hath neuer wanted his Spouse in earth though the blind worlde when they see her will not acknowledge her to be his Spouse but persecute her as if she were an adulteresse c Ar. 95.79.82.106 She was knowen to them that were her children c Ar. 95.79.82.106 The Church of Christ is the nurse of Christians Ierusalem that is from aboue is mother of vs all Ar. 95. 26 It is not called Catholike because it should be euery where For that it neuer was nor neuer shall be Contra d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 It should ouerflow and fill all the world with righteousnes Esa 10. d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 That God hath an holy vniuersall Congregation it is necessarie to beleeue d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 It is dispersed in many places ouer all the world 27 e Ar. 12.3.69 Christes Church is now by God inlarged farther thē the Popish Church Contra f Ar. 73.80 It is but a small flocke in comparison of the malignant Church of Antichrist whose number is as the sand of the sea Apoc. 20. 28 It is a good argument that the Popish Church is not the Church of Christ Ar. 27. because it was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp in so much that you can name the notable persons in all ages in their gouernement and ministerie and especially the succession of Popes you can rehearse in order vpon your fingers And it were a token that our Church were not the true Church if we could name suche notable persons in their gouernement and ministerie Contra a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 Suche officers as are necessarie for the conseruation of Gods people in the vnitie of fayth and the knowledge of Christe our Churche hath neuer lacked notwithstanding that through iniurie of the time a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 because our Churche had not so many Registers Chroniclers and remembrauncers the remembraunce of all their names is not come vnto vs. a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 For the authoritie of the Bible we haue the testimonie of the true Churche in all ages a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 Our Congregation hath euer had possession of the Scriptures Their inuisible Church had alvvayes the Scripture in the vulgare tongues a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 God hath neuer suffered the true Churche to be destitute of the necessarie vse of the Scripture Whiche the Popishe Churche hath so keapt in an vnknowen tongue that the people coulde haue no vse muche lesse the necessarie vse thereof a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The Churche of God hath alwayes had Scholes and Vniuersities for the mainteinance of godly learning a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 It was neuer so secret nor hidden but it might be knowen of all those that had eyes to see it a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 That thousand yeres there was gathering together for preaching ministring and correcting a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The Church hath neuer bene afrayde to do her office towards her children and true members in teaching exhorting comforting confirming c. 29 The Popish Church was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp Contra Ar. 27. Ar. 85. The Church of Rome hath not alwayes practised open preaching and neuer preached the word of trueth 30 Touching the text Mat. 5. of a Citie buylded vpon an hill Ar. 100. which can not be hidden after he hath giuen his sense of it he saith Hereby it appeareth how fondly some Papistes and some of the Doctors in their error do expoūd this place to proue that the Church must alwayes be visible Contra euen in his owne exposition there It is properly
Scriptures and declare in their writinges that by them they are to be confuted for examples sake of a great number I will alleage a fewe and he alleageth Hilarius Basilius Magnus Chrysostome Augustine Leo the first Bishop of Rome and the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt And so concludeth saying Thus I haue declared by ensample and authoritie of these fathers that the true Church of Christ hath conuicted all heretikes onely by the Scripture If onely by the scriptures See cap. 9. par 2. pag. Ar. 52. so much the better you doe like of her and that in this Chapter nothing misliketh me Now let vs see what he confesseth of the auncient Monkes also The Church of God saith he hath alwayes had Scholes or Vniuersities for the maintenance of godly learning for the first colledges of Monkes in solitarie places were nothing els but Colledges of studentes that were afterward as occasion serued taken to serue in the Church as appeareth by Chrisostom in his booke de Sacerdotio where he sheweth that Basilius who was a Monke with him was taken by violence and made a minister of the Church as he him selfe was afterward Also in the Bishops house was a Colledge of studentes and our histories testifie that at Bangor in Wales was a great vniuersitie of learned men Whether S. Chrysostome S. Basill and those other auncient Monkes both in our owne and also in other countreys were nothing else but studentes it is not the question of this place See cap. 10. dem 25. pag. but onely doe I note here that he confesseth them to haue bene of the Church of God Then as concerning the times first of persecution afterward of peace vnder the Emperours both heathen and Christian he vttereth his confession of the true Church in these wordes Our assemblies were kept in secret places Ar. 51.52 long time after Christes ascension in most Countries that were subiect to the Romane Empire and when Constantinus had geuen peace to the Church he builded Oratories and great Synagoges called Basilicas for our assemblies and Seruice Also necessarie furniture for the seruice of God was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his Successors that were of our Church before the reuelation of Antichrist that is as before you heard his meaning before the time of Bonifacius the thirde Pur. 342. Likewise in an other place he confesseth both those Caues and Vaultes vnder the earth that the olde Christian Bishops were content to serue in before the time of Constantine and also those princely buildinges that by Constantine and other Christian Princes were first set vp for the publike exercise of Christian Religion To which times belongeth also that wherein he confesseth the conuersion of Nations by the true Church saying It did not onely require but also subdue all Nations to the obedience of the faith Ar. 97. so many as were euer subdued in the dayes of the first Christian Emperours and before Finally he confesseth the Emperours yet more expressely and more particularly saying Ar. 33. It is an easie matter to name you the Emperours and princes which both offered to the ministers of iustice in the right of our Church and also mainteined our faith and congregation by Ciuill lawes as Constantine the great Iouinianus Valentinianus Theodosius Archadius Honorius Marcianus Iustinianus Mauricius and diuers others And to signifie that he meaneth these Emperours to haue bene such as he would wish for he addeth of the latter Emperours and saith I passe ouer as to well knowen many of the Grecian Emperours Likewise I passe ouer Charles the great I will not rehearse those later Germane Princes that c. For although these and such like defended some part of the trueth which we holde against you yet least you should obiect it was but in one or two poyntes I passe them ouer with silence And so much for the true Church in the first 600. yeares ¶ The third Chapter That he confesseth the foresaid true Church to haue made so plainely with vs in very many of the controuersies of this time that he is faine to hold that the But not his Caluinicall Church true Church may erre and also hath erred AFter all this so smoothly by him confessed of the true Church and sometime also of the long continuing thereof in incorruption if any man maruell to heare nowe that yet withall he holdeth the same true Church at the same time to haue bene corrupted and to haue erred let him sée here in the eleuenth Chapter his manifolde manifest contradictions he will quickly leaue his marueiling the matter he shal perceiue is not so straunge in this man but very vsuall common to contrarie him selfe as it is also no rare thing in his master Caluine and the other heretical writers of our time But here in the meane while be it disagréeing or be it agréeing with that which he hath confessed already Infra ca. 11. cōtradict 4. I will in this present Chapter laye forth his words first generally that the true Church may erre and afterwarde of the particuler errors common to the true Church then and to our Church now The first part That the true Church may erre Ar. 86 Therefore that the true Church may erre thus he saith The true and onely Church of Christ can neuer be voyde of God his spirite and yet she may erre from the trueth and be deceiued in some things And a litle after Wherefore the whole Churche militant consisting of men which are all lyars may erre all together Ar. 88. Agayne The true and onely Church of God as it is declared before hath no such priuilege graunted but that she may be deceiued in some things And there beneath And if it may erre and be deceiued it selfe what man is he that neede to doubt whether it may induce any error among the people In so much that he is bolde to say in an other place Pur. 367 368. Of an hundred argumentes that S. Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians this insultation that their heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church was one of the feeblest which tooke no holde of the Pelagians by force of truth that is in it but by their confession and graunt In so much agayne that a few lines after he saith to D. Allen or rather to S. Augustine if it be truely scanned In deede they were but sory whelpes that could not say baffe to the bleating of such a calfe as you are Modestly which thinke that such a foolish cauill can cary credite with them that haue any cromme of brayne in their heades to wit The Church prayeth so therefore it is true Ar. 83.84 Moreouer in an other If you meane as it seemeth and as the rest of the Papistes doe interprete that Article I beleeue the Catholike Church that is I beleeue whatsoeuer the Church doth allow to be true I denie that it is
beneath M. Allen affirmeth that S. Augustine neuer doubteth but intercession may be made vnto them for the dead whosoeuer wil take the paines to reade the treatise de cura pro mortuis ageÌ„da shal find nothing els but doubtes and questions of that matter So he saith not marking what him selfe there citeth out of that booke August de â—ur cap. 16. to witte where S. Augustine concludeth the whole matter in the end and saith Ista questio vires intelligentiae meae vincit quemadmoduÌ„ opitulantur Martyres ijs quos per eos Certum est opitulari This question passeth the strength of mine vnderstanding how the Martyrs helpe them whom it is certain to be helped of them Certum est saith S. Augustine and Fulke alleageth it and euen so Englisheth it it is certaine and yet onely because he can not define Howe as to this day also it remaineth a very hard question he sticketh not againe to say there immediatly These places and the whole discourse of that booke doth proue that although Augustine were willing to maintaine the superstition that was not throughly confirmed in his time about Burialls and Inuocation of Saintes yet he hath nothing of certaintie c. At least wise this declareth that S. Ambrose and S. Augustine are ioyned of him with S. Hierome in that error Hier. li. 2. con Vigil and not with Vigilantius amongst those many godly and learned Byshops of that time of whom also he hath no author so to count them by S. Hierome it appeareth that they were very few vngodly and vnlearned and against all the thrée Patriarchal Churches of the East of Egypt and of the See Apostolike in that they tooke part with Vigilantius and so with Iouinianus condemned by the authoritie of the Romane Church And so much of the auncient true Churches erring in Inuocation of sainctes iij. As touching Iouinian of fasting of Virginities merite of Vâ—â—aries mariage Now to adde more likewise of their erring in condemning of Iouinian D. Allens wordes are these Iouinianus taught the contempt of Christian fastes matched mariage with holy maidenhood Pur. 11.13 and afterward to the great wonder of all the Church perswaded certaine religious women in Rome to forsake their first faith Hier. con Ioui li. 2. and mary to their damnation for which plaine supporting of vndoubted wickednes S. Hierome calleth them often Christian Epicures boulsterers of sinne and doctors of lust and lecherie Neuerthelesse the force of Gods grace which was great in the spring of our Religion the sinne of the world not yet ripe for such open shew of licentious life speedely repressed that wicked attempt for as S. Augustine declareth it was so cleare a falshood that it neuer grew to deceaue any one of all the Cleargie Fulkes answere herevnto is no more but this If Iouinian were so great an heretike as you make him yet he him selfe as you shew after out of Augustine offended not in that which he perswaded others to doe He meaneth that place when D. Allen somewhat after speaketh of these newe Superintendentes and ministers and saith that they much exeede Iouinianus Pur. 17.22 who as Augustine reporteth of him being a Monke mainteined the mariage of Votaries but yet for diuers inconueniences him selfe for all that would not be maried August ad quod haer 28. And there to S. Augustine by name he saith nothing but turneth his talke to D. Allen demauÌ„ding of him thus Where learned you but of the diuell him selfe to commaund abstinence from meates and mariage for Religions sake to some men at all times and to all men at some times If for these and for an hundreth such you can shewe no better warrant then the termes of your fathers A good child the practise of your elders or the authoritie of mortal men the curse of God pronounced by Esay against them that call euill good or good euill must needes be turned ouer vnto you With the same boldnes in an other place where D. Allen had giueÌ„ this obseruation You shal not lightly heare an heretike that denyeth praying to sainctes Pur. 4â—1 402. or holdeth with open breach of holy vowes alleage Iouinianus or Vigilantius But they will trauaile to writhe with plaine iniurie to the author some sentence out of Augustine or Ambrose or some other that by their whole life and practise open them selues to the world to beleeue the contrarie He saith thervnto M. Allen geueth a speciall note that we name not Iouinian or Vigilantius but rather hang vpon some sentence of Augustine or Ambrose and thinketh we are ashamed of the other But we neither boast vpon Augustine nor Ambrose when they dissent from our doctrine neither are ashamed of Vigilantius nor Berengarius when they agree therewith iiij As touching Ceremonies Likewise of their erring in Ceremonies and such other traditions this he saith more besides that which I haue already reported Pur. 256 Their time he speaketh of Gregory Nissen and Athanasius the great had diuers errors and superstitious Ceremonies Againe Ar. 91. If the Church had not approued many vnprofitable and hurtfull vsages among the people in S. Augustines time what neede had he to complaine that many of God his commaundementes were litle regarded and mans presumptions so highly esteemed See the answer cap. 6. pag. Sed hoc nimis doleo c. But herewith I am to much greeued that many things which in God his booke are most holsomely commaunded are lesse regarded and all things are so ful of so many presumptions that he is more greeuously reproued which in his Vtas hath touched the earth with his bare foote then he that hath buried his minde in dronkennes So farre out of S. Augustine Therefore if it be an vnprofitable and hurtfull vsage to preferre mans traditions before God his commaundements the Church in S. Augustines time approued an vnprofitable and hurtfull vsage Furthermore if the Churche can not approue an vnprofitable or hurtfull vsage wherefore are so many Ceremonies as were approued in S. Augustine and S. Ambroses times abrogated and disanulled either because they were vnprofitable Pur. 391. Tert. de coro mil. or else hurtfull Againe where D. Allen sayth They confesse Tertullian 1300. yeares agoe to haue practised oblations for the dead And aske him where he had it for surely he inuented it not him selfe and he appointeth vs to his forefathers He nameth the Apostles for the authors and founders thereof as of many other thinges which he there reckeneth beside that were generally receaued and now be of heretikes likewise condemned Pu. 400 393.264 He answereth Tertullian fathered manifest fables vpon the institution of Christ and the Apostles as you your selfe * Infra cap. 6. pag. can not denie if you haue any conscience at all As On the Sonday and betweene Easter and Whitsontide not to fast or pray vpon our knees Also To crosse our selues in the foreheade at all thinges
opposed to our argumentes as you oppose it in the last Chapter You might if the Maior were true labour to the purpose I graunt in prouing the Minor But you might not I say for all that make of it an opposition or exception when we make argumentes out of Traditions Councels Fathers c. as in the like I shew vnto you I proue a doctrine vnto you out of the Old Testament you oppose therevnto your negatiue argument and say to me All true doctrine is taught in the New Testament for so you do holde and must holde that doctrine is not taught in the New Testament therfore that doctrine is no true doctrine Is this well opposed of you May not I say to you notwithstanding Yea syr but for all that what say you to my place alleaged out of the Old Testament vnlesse you haue any thing against the Old Testament it selfe Euen so vnles you haue any thing directly against Traditions them selues Councels Fathers and suche others our argumentes do preuayle and you in vayne do flée to Only Scripture although all true doctrine were taught in Scripture Now to the second question concerning the Church ¶ The second part Concerning the question of the Church About the Church his contradictions are very many and very palpable as I will declare in the eleuenth Chapter Here I haue to examine what he alleageth first indefinitely That the Church may erre That it may be diuorced That it is a base and contemptible companie That it may and also should become inuisible and then by name That the Protestantes haue the true Church or That the Papistes haue it not j Of the Church indefinitely That the whole Church may erre he alleageth and saith According to the saying of the Scripture Euery man is a lyer Ar. 86. Wherfore the whole Church militant consisting of men which are all lyers may erre altogether Why do you say The church militant Doth not the Church triumphant also consist of men If therefore all men be lyers why may not they also erre No doubt because although all men are lyers of them selues yet some men may notwithstanding by the gifte of God be veraces true And so where you conclude thus vpon vs God onely is not true Pur. 451. for the Pope can not erre you might conclude aswell God onely is not true for the Apostles can not erre Againe you alleage and say The true and only Church of God hath no such priuiledge graunted Ar. 88. but that she may be deceiued in some things For her knowledge is vnperfect her prophecying is vnperfect 1. Cor. 13. Where you her S. Paule saith our including him selfe also in that speache Ex parte enim cognoscimus c. For our knowledge is vnperfect and our prophecying is vnperfect so long as we be in this life whether we speake or write And yet you will not say I trow that S. Paule therefore might be deceiued in his writings and Epistles So then the Churches priuiledge knowledge prophecying may be vnperfect and yet she withall so frée from erring that she may be bolde in her determinations to say Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Act. 15. It hath bene thought good of the holy Ghost and of vs. Againe you say And it is true that S. Augustine saith Euen the whole Church is taught to say euery day Ar 88. Pur. 393. Aug. Retra li. 2. ca. 18. Forgeue vs our trespasses But why so because the whole Church doth erre in her determinations euery day It were ridiculous so to say Why theÌ„ Propter quasdam ignorantias infirmitates membrorum suorum Because of certayne veniall sinnes of her members procéeding of ignorance frayltie saith S. Augustine In which members the Apostles also in their time were and therefore they also accordingly were taught to say euery day Forgeue vs our trespasses and did say accordingly Iac 3. 1. Io. 1. We do all offend in many things And yet I trow they did not erre nor could erre in their Canonicall writinges and determinations This is all that you bring to proue the whole Churche of Christ may erre Though you alleage one other place that the whole Synagogue did erre and yet that also onely in a fact not in a doctrine yea neither the whole Synagogue but a piece onely So that there bee as you see no lesse then three walles as it were betwene the Church and this shotte of yours These are your wordes Pur. 224.456 Dauid transgressed the law of God to carry the Arke vpon a new chariotte which should haue bene borne vpon mens shoulders … y blindnesse 1. Chron. 13. wherin not onely Dauid but so many priests and Leuites so good a Bishop and the whole Generall Councell of Israel did erre So say you but so saith not the texte yea it vtterly confoundeth both you and all these prophane innouations made by your ley heades and Parliamentes Dauid tooke counsaile saith the texte with his Tribunes and Centurions 1. Par. 13. 1â—… and all his Nobles He did not so much as consulte no not with the inferiour sorte of the Priestes but onelie If you please quoth he to his temporall Lordes and if the motion be of God let vs sende to the rest of our brethern in all the lande of Israel and to the priestes and Leuites in their Suburbes as you woulde saie the hedge Priestes that they gather vnto vs and we fetche agayne to vs the Arke of God And so they beganne in suche maner as you reporte vntill God killed Oza the Leuite in the procession and so made Dauid afraide to carrie it any further But three monethes after hauing found his error he gathered not onelie all Israel into Ierusalem but also filios Aaron Sadoc et Abiathar Sacerdotes The Successors of Aaron Sadoc and Abiathar the high priestes Leuitas and the Leuites with the heades of them being these six Vriel Asaias Ioel Semeias Eliel and Aminadab These two Bishops and these sixe Archedeacons that I may so tearme them he called and saide vnto them You that are the heades of the Leuiticall families prepare your selues together with your brethren and bring the Arke of our Lorde God of Israel to the place whiche is dressed for it least that as before because you were not present our Lorde did smite vs so nowe also it happen for our vnlawfull doing A notable ensample for all Princes and for al nobles to remember how they haue offended and to amende it accordingly and all A maiori in euery respect aboue the highest degree One more of your places I thinke good here to examine though you bring it not to proue that the Church may erre but onely to answere a place that we bring for the contrary Ar. 86. The true and onely Church of Christ you say can neuer be voide of Gods spirite and yet she may erre from the trueth and be deceaued in some thinges euen as
so much that it is briefly and playnely so set foorth in the worde of God as I haue shewed in the eyght chapter answering all the textes that you peruert for Onely Scripture namely that text of an Angel from heauen pag. 110. And the place also of Saint Augustine chapter 9. pag. 181. Pur. 333. In so much that where you say therevpon He will not allowe Myracles and Visions for sufficient proofes without the authoritie of the Scriptures you do shamefully abuse your Reader for he saith expresly that whatsoeuer such things are done in the Catholike Church as he there also mentioneth many generally and some particularly therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church And you graunt that these of S. Augustines reporting were done in the Catholike Church Ergo by S. Augustine euen in that place you must allow them and so condemne your owne Religion Motiue 26. 13.15 Honour of Crosses and of Saintes 14.16 Vertue of Crosses and of Saintes 17. Exorcismes 18. Destroying of Idolatrie In the next fiue Demaundes I report certaine argumentes made of the old Doctors in their bookes against the Paynims to proue that Christ is God and not their Idolles by certaine pointes of our Religion as the Soueraigne Honor both of his Crosse and of his Saintes and the miraculouse power not onely of them two but also of his Church in her ordinarie exorcismes requiring the Protestantes to helpe here the Paynims if they be eyther able or not ashamed and also in the next Demaund bidding them open their eyes at length and beholde that our Religion hath bene and is the bane of Idolatrie yea and those very pointes of our Religion which their peruerse blindnes counteth and calleth Idolatry it selfe To all this Fulke had nothing but like a Cuckow You haue not saith he destroyed Idolatry Pur. 460. but set vp Idolatrie Not waying what I tell him according to the prophets that we haue so throughly conuerted al Nations from Idolatrie that we haue made them forget also the names of their Idolles Motiue 41. Article 10. 19 Kinges My 19. Demaund is of the Christian Emperours and Kinges of whose conuersion together the Scripture speaketh expresly and of the conuersion of Nations The chiefe of them Fulke nameth here cap. 2. and confesseth with vs and for vs that they were of the true Church in the first 600. yeares yea and chalengeth them to haue bene of his Religion no lesse then we doe But what proufes doth he bring thereof Not one Neither doth he answere so much as any one of our proufes no not that which D. Allen alleageth Pur. 429. how Constantinus honored the Sentence of the Priestes Councell at Nice tanquam a deo prolatam as pronounced of God Pur. 313. Ruff. li. 1. ca. 5. yea he is faine to confesse that in the burial of Constantinus him selfe the very first Christian Emperour Eus in vita Const li. 4 c. 58.59.60.66.71 there was prayer for his soule according to the errour of the time being the time of the first Nicen Counsell In Eusebius is much more Sacrifice also for his soule with the intercession of the Apostles in whose honor it was offered at their Relikes in their Temple Pur. 312. and all by the procurement of ConstaÌ„tinus him self Again That the Emperour Theodosius Iunior prayed for his fathers and mothers soules Arcadius and Eudoria But the storie saith not quoth he that he prayed to S. Chrysostome for them as M. Allen thinketh The storie is Theodorets and his words are these Hist Trip. li. 10. c. 26. ex Theo. l. 5. c. 35.36 Pur. 222.226 Amb. super obitum Theod. And he setting his face and eyes vpon the shrine of that holy man made supplications for his parentes and prayed him vt veniam illis tribueret that he would pardon them the iniuries which of ignorance they had done him in working his death Againe as touching Honorius of the west brother to the said Arcadius of the East wher S. Ambrose saith Eius principis Theodosij Senioris et proximè conclamauimus Obitum et nunc quadragesimum diem celebramus assistente sacris Altaribus Honorio Principe We finished of late vpon the seuenth day this Princes Obite Theodotius Senior their father and now we celebrate his fourtyth day our Prince Honorius standing by the sacred Altares To this Fulke had nothing but partly to reprehend the thing as superstitious both in the Bishop and in the Emperour partely to inueigh blindly against D. Allens translation For Ambrose speaketh not he saith of his fortyth dayes minde but of the solemnitie of his funerall kept 40. dayes togeather As though the fortyth day is not one of the fortie and yet also how playnly he expresseth the singulare solemnitie of the fortyth day as of the Obite before saying And now we celebrate his fortyth day whereas others vse to kepe the Thirde day and the Thirtith which was and is the vse of the Romane Church But the Church of Millaine kept the seuenth day and the fortyth Al this considered who seeth not that aswel the Catholike Emperours within the first 600. yeres be against him as the others of later tymes and therefore that it is but a cast of his facing deceiuing arte that he saith Ar. 33.51 Before the generall Defection and Reuelation of Antichrist it is an easye matter to name you the Emperours and Princes of our Church as Constantine the great See the impudent Heretike them vvhâ—m he condemned before Iouinianus Valentinianus Theodosius Arcadius Honorius Martianus Iustinianus Mauritius diuers other But when the Kings of the earth had coÌ„mitted fornicatioÌ„ with the great Whore of BabyloÌ„ as the holy ghost foresheweth Apo. 17. 18. it is no preiudice to our cause if we cannot shew any of them that haue maintained our Religion Your malicious and ignoraÌ„t setting of the Defection Antichrists reuealing at the yere 607 I haue coÌ„futed cap. 8. pag. 126. by the Scriptures most manifestly But that you poynt the same time for the Kinges of the earth to haue fornicated with her your ignorance and malice surmounteth it selfe as it is euideÌ„t by that which I say there pag. 126. that Babylon is this world froÌ„ the beginning to the ending thereof and called a Whore for that it hath such alluremeÌ„ts wherevpon the same S. Iohn exhorteth vs in his Epistle 1. Ioan 2. and saith Loue not the world nor the thinges that are in the world The world is transitorie and also the coÌ„cupiscence of it And therefore in his Apocalipse he maketh her to sit vpon all the earthly worldly Kinges that euer tooke or shall take her parte against Gods Church But your blindnes could finde no earthly Kinges in the world but within these last 900. yeares yea none to be the Kinges of the Earth but those that be the Kinges of the Church and their fornicatioÌ„ to consist In humbly
heresies not preached against winked at because it had a shew of pietie and charitie and at length allowed of Augustine and others who followed the common errors of their time Specially when a Generall defection and departing from the faith was foreshewed what maruell were it if none coulde preach against it as it first entred Ar. 92.36.37 Contra The Churche of Christ in such places as she is suffreth no man damnably abusing her Religion without open reprehension Ar. 11. 10 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions contrarie to the word of God as her duetie was and fought against them and obteined the victorie and triumphed ouer them Pur. 419. Ar. 35.36 Contra In those auncient times they of the true Catholike Church did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the worde of God but if Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shewe of pietie or charitie they would drawe it into vse So they tooke into the Church of Christ many abuses and corruptions vntill at the length An. 607. the religion of the Papistes preuayled And c since that time that diuelish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yere 1414. 11 That blasphemous heresie of Purgatorie To the Reader Pu. 26.166.184.177.269.362.363.419.186 which is moste blasphemous against Christ against the bloud of Christ against his merites and satisfaction for our sinnes and against Gods vnspeakable mercies and occasion of most licentious wickednes in all thē that beleue it nothing conuenient for the disciples members of Christ No suffrages were made for the dead by the Apostles or their lawfull successors Contra here cap. 3. he confesseth that the Fathers held it and yet notwithstanding that they were members of the true Church ca. 2. and held the foundation Iesus Christ cap. 5. and all the substance of true doctrine z Pur. 393.405 And also that they did inuocate Saintes denying in other y Supr pa. 139.140 places that such be true Christians The like q Su. p. 141. of Fasting 12 x Pur. 51.26.166.177.184 The opinion of Purgatorie satisfaction of sinnes after this life is the very doctrine of licentiousnesse to mainteine wicked men in their presumptuousnes For what hast will they make to amendment newnes of life when they haue hope of release after their death Contra As S. Augustine saith Pur. 448. it is but for smal faultes or as M. Allen saith for great faultes that by penaunce are made small And is God suche a mercifull father to punishe small faultes so extremely in his children whom he pardoneth of all their great and haynous sinnes O blasphemous helhoundes Sée how vehement he is in contradicting him selfe to iustifie that saying of D. Allens I am well assured there dare no man Pur. 150. though he were destitute of Gods grace yet not for shame of him selfe affirme that the doctrine of Purgatorie is hurtfull to vertuous life Considering that people with vs are told that to escape hell it selfe they must do much more then the Protestants require and more againe to escape Purgatorie according to S. Augustines threatning here cap. 9. pag. 212. 13 How long soeuer the true Church were hidden Ar. 73. Supra ca. 1. whether it were a 1000. yeres or 2000. yeres this is certayne that out of this Church none could be saued Contra here ca. 5. he counteth it ynough if the faith of their saluation were in the onely foundation Iesus Christ and that in such a sense as agréeth to men in déede out of the Church Ar. 61 74. Pur. 238. 14 They which hold the foundation that is Christ to wit the Article of Iustification by the onely mercie of God and of the onely Sonne of God are doubtlesse members of the true Church of Christ Contra here cap. 10. pag. where he saieth that the Anabaptistes are abominable heretikes and that they are not Protestants who yet do hold that article iump as the Protestants do Ar. 36.38 Ar. 71.78.79.80 15 A generall departing from the faith was foreshewed and it was fulfilled An. 607. Contra The Church was neuer lost neither when the departing was Generall but hidden in the wildernesse that is from the eyes of the world She is to this day preserued and shal be to the worldes end Christ hath neuer wanted his Spouse in earth he hath neuer ben a head without a body Ar. 2.96.26.27 16 The Primitiue Church of the Apostles hath continued vnto this day by succession not of persons and places but of doctrine faith and trueth These very wordes conteine a manifest contradiction For how can a Church or doctrine faith and truth cōtinue but in persons and places in so much that he saith also We doubt not but God hath alway stirred vp some faithful teachers that haue instructed his Church in the necessarie pointes of Christian doctrine Ar. 15.79 17 The true Church of Christ hath alwayes stoode stedfast inseperable from Christ her head though the blind worlde when they see her will not acknowledge her to be his Spouse but persecute her as if she were an adulteresse Contra in the same place The true Church vnder the Emperours Constantinus Constans and Valens was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius And in another place Ar. 79. The visible Church may become an adultresse and be deuorced from Christ And so is that faithfull Church of Rome become an harlot Ar. 79. 18 The true Church consisting of Gods elect and the liuely members of the body of Christ shal neuer commit such adultery c. But the visible Church may separate her selfe from Christ As though there were another Church besides the visible Church and so two Churches Ar. 65. Contra Wheresoeuer the Catholike Church be in partes it is one body of Christ And therfore in dede there is neuer no Church but the visible Church the other is but an imagination of the Protestants to delude the world withall As though Luther and the rest that appeared with him had afore their appearing bene secrete Protestants whereas in deede they were open Papistes 19 Anno 607. the Church fled into the wildernes that is Ar. 16.27.79.36 out of the sight and knowledge of the world there to remaine a long season where all this while God hath preserued her vntill suche time as he thought good now in our daies to bring her out of her secrete place in the wildernes into the open sight of the world againe Contra Ar. 77. Diuers times it was bold to chalenge preaching and ministring of the Sacraments yea and so boldly that it cost many of the chalengers their liues As Berengarius Bruno Marsilius de Padua Ioannes de Gaudano Ioannes Wickleue Walden Ioannes Hus Ieronymus de Praga c. Where besides his manifest contradiction I note two things against him one that it cost not all these yea very few of these