that passeth by Each Saint hath a part as it happeneth as men are disposed or occasions are presented 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Foxe in the Fable Shee hath many addresses vnto many Mediators For Accesse and Audience For Dispatch and Riddance at Gods hands to bee heard and deliuered in time of Trouble few or none immediate To or By himselfe Many Mediators of Intercession onely For I say not For though shee be wise enough in confessing God the donor principall author I cannot I must not say that the Church of Rome denieth Call vpon mee to hold in good Obedience or in Diuinitie For Certainely Shee addresseth Te ad me Man vnto God vnto none but vnto God to be heard and deliuered by him alone out of tribulation in the Day of trouble as Author and Originall of all helpe and Grace deduced and deriued meerely wholly and totally from Him Freely professing willingly acknowledging as truely beleeuing as any doe or can doe whatsoeuer that Euery good gift and perfect giuing is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the worke of God and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sent of God It is true and must not bee denied The Romane Church in her Doctrine for and concerning Practise it is otherwise doth not impaire or impeach the Sure firme and fastest Meditation the Peculiar worke of Christ Iesus or appoint Propitiators in his place who alone as all sufficient in himselfe payed the price of our Redemption and made vp without assistants or Concurrents the alone absolute atonement by his Reall and perfect Satisfaction betwixt God and Man Willingly they acknowledge and professe together with vs that None but Christ none but Christ In Earth they haue none beside Him and in Heauen not any to bee compared to him who onely through the Dignitie of his Person and alsufficiencie of his Desert meritoriously obtaineth what wee can desire or what wee Call for at Gods hands It is false which is imputed if yet it bee imputed and layd vnto their Charge That they haue many Gods or many Lords That they Call vpon Saints as vpon God to helpe them That they mention not Christ but Saints in their Deuotions They doe not deny Call vpon mee In their Doctrine and Opinion Inuocation is peculiar vnto God alone as a part of that Eternall Morall dutie which man euer doth owe vnto God his Maker and Protector in all his wayes Inuocation I meane in a proper Sense it is Aduocation and Intercession onely which they giue vnto Saints which Act is sometime called Inuocation in a large extent as it passeth and is directed from man to them Their helpe with Dauid onely standeth in the Name of the Lord who hath made both Heauen and Earth For Gratiam gloriam say they dabit Dominus It is the Lord alone that Giueth because it is in his power to giue both Grace and Glorie Therefore the great Dictator of that side layeth downe this Proposition as resolued vpon on all hands by his Partie It is not lawfull to desire or request of the Saints that as Actors of Diuine good things and Benefits they grant vnto vs glory or grace or any other meanes vnto eternall happinesse For why Our helpe standeth in the Name of the Lord that hath made Heauen and Earth And he addeth That the Saints are no immediate Intercessors for vs with God but whatsoeuer they obtaine for vs at Gods hands that they doe obtaine by and through Christ And it is for ought I know the voyce of euery Romanist Non ipsi Sancti sed eorum Deus Dominus nobis est So it must not be imputed which is not deserued were they worse then they are It is a Sinne they say to belye the Deuill a Shame to charge men with what they are not guiltie of to make the breach bigger Being in this as shee is in other opinions somewhat 〈◊〉 us already too wide Concerning Saints departed thus they teach First that according vnto Scripture and Faith of the Church They liue and subsist in their better part That their Life is hidden in Christ with God whose Presence they now enioy in Glory in Heauen That there they rest from their Labours and magnifie his Mercies incessantly who hath sent such Redemption vnto their soules That there they forget not their brethren vpon Earth but remember the Church Militant vnto God And sure if there bee a Communion of Saints and a Fellowship betwixt those two maine parts of the Tolu◠the Church of the Redeemed by the blood of Iesus Triumphant in the Heauens and yet Militant heere in Earth Orant pro Nobis saltem in genere those that enioy the Fruit of their Labors now with God are not Forgetfull of their brethren behinde and not consummate in the Flesh I insist not on this it is not now questioned by the Opposites But farther they teach that the Saints in Heauen make also Particular Intercession for vs that is Some of them for some of vs here which is in my Opinion though no point of Faith for which I would burne yet true and certaine in all Credibilitie But how it is limitted or to bee enlarged how and in what sort and sense it is true may appeare more particularly vpon the Processe Thirdly that Saints and Holy Angels in Heauen may bee ioyntly or seuerally prayed vnto Many by many by one or some One by any one or by many which accordingly their People put in frequent practise Chaunting it euery where Ora pro me The Councell of Trent that Oracle of the Romane Faith and Religion resolueth thus Sanctos Orationes suas pro hominibus De◠offerre Bonum esse atque vtile suppliciter eos Inuocare Ad eorum Orationes opem auxiliumque confugere In some Generalities as their manner is leauing way and libertie for disputes abroad And in this point not better to be answered then by taking away the ambiguitie of the word Inuocation For better Euidence in this point the Question controuersed inter partes may be limitted or rather explained thus Inuocation as was touched is a word of ambiguous signification as most words are because there are more things then words Subsistances then names to Call them by It is taken specially for to Call vpon mee as him vpon whom we absolutely relye at least vltimatè in that kind It is also vsed for to Call vnto as to Helpes Assistants or Aduocates in suite when in Time of Trouble and Necessitie wee haue Cause to come and Call on God directing our Prayers euer primâ intentione vnto him When therefore wee talke of Inuocation of Saints and dispute concerning praying vnto Saints wee must vnderstand Inuocation so as directed vnto them onely as Assistants and Mediators onely of Intercession and therefore not to be Inuocated or Called vpon in the same sense and termes as God Almightie is the Author and Donor of euery good giuing nor to bee implored as Christ Iesus is the onely Mediator of Redemption and
successe discoursing of their deare affection to vs. say they as if this were questioned or to the purpose but they wish and will and what they can most readily procure quantum in ipsis as much as they can and they can doe much whatsoeuer in God may stead them or doe them good They loue vs indeed no question of that and so consequently according vnto the nature of loue in the effects thereof will and wish and seeke the good of those whom they loue Their loue is now greater being in Heauen vnto man then euer it was or could bee when and while they liued vpon Earth For Charitie is transcendent in those celestiall Citizens And therefore no question they pray for men vpon earth But how and for whom All Christians in generall their Brethren as yet in great tribulation the Church militant vpon the face of the Earth This they know the state of these and their necessities are knowen to them in Heauen and vpon knowledge they doe commiserate them and Commiseration procureth Intercession else were there no Communion of Saints no bond betwixt the militant and triumphant Church In specie for those Churches whereof themselues were parts noble and liuely members yet being in the flesh as more interessed there then otherwhere For if charitie bee ordinate here vpon earth diliguntur alieni magis proxiâ—â—i maximè proprij It cannot be imagined to bee disordinate it is not sure irregular in Heauen where order is most of all especially regarded as the Place and Persons where and by whom Gods will is performed so absolutly as that by the Doctor of Israel in his perfect patterne of Prayer wee are thither addressed for imitation thus Thy Will bee done in Earth as it is in Heauen But so for those ordinarily and of common course as that which they pray for is the generall good of all not the particular interest of any one Thus Gregorie Nazianzene was perswaded himselfe but did not presse others to beleeue it that his deceased Father then with God did specially intercede for his particular flock Orat. 19. pag. 288. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I am verily perswaded and beleeue that my Father now with God and the rather because hee is with God doth by mediating and interceding with God for you doe you more good and stand you in greater stead by his prayers then hee did while he liued amongst you by his Doctrine This is the common voice with generall concurrence without contradiction of reuerend and learned Antiquitie for ought I euer could reade or vnderstand and I see no cause or reason to dissent from them touching Intercession in this kinde I adde in particular yet somewhat farther To which we had rather adde then detract from it Those with God may and doe recommend vnto God in their celestiall Prayers their kindred friends and acquaintance vpon Earth whom they knew in whose loue and familiaritie they had interest yet being in the flesh with whom they had conuersed more reseruedly But no other sort and manner for them then onely for such instant and exigent necessities But in reference to what they vvere here acquainted withall For such causes occasions and employments as being yet in viuis and conuersant with them they knew of vnderstood and were acquainted withall or interessed in and haue not forgotten being Resiants in those heauenly habitations and all teares wiped away from their own eyes For the Soule of man separated from the Body by Death and subsisting alone in all freedome Which they cannot but retayne in memorie happinesse and content with God cannot bee thought to empaire or suffer losse in any indowment naturall or acquisite which tend to perfection of state and being and I speake and intend this of those indowments formerly had in time of life For as concerning those newly acquired accruing in and to the state they then enioy with God speake they that can tell if yet they can tell what they speake Nor is it so strange For if that those who are restored againe by Christ and raysed vp from the dust of the earth to liue with him in glorie in the day of restauration of all by Christ and retribution of the Righteous shall perfectly know and take notice of those whom they neuer knew nor saw perchance nor heard of in the flesh as being post-nati vnto them so many hundreds or thousands of yeeres If they shall know Adam Seth Enoch Noah Abraham all the Patriarchs Prophets Apostles how can they forget the names and notions of them with whom they conuersed so many yeeres From whose societie and companie they so lately departed vnto whom they imparted of their owne secrets and with whose counsels they were acquainted with whom so long they liued together seruing one God together as friends Diues in Hell where the Soule if any where Since euen the soules in hell can doe it loseth her indowments knew Abraham whom he had neuer seene in Earth and acknowledgeth him to be the Author of his stock and people the Iewes Diues in Hell had not forgot the number and condition of his Brethren on earth and was also carefull and mindfull of them least they should come into that place of torment Whether it bee an Historie as Tertullian and many other suppose or else a Parable as others rather thinke yet euen so it will come home to purpose For parables are not Chimaraes or speculations meerely but deduced from condition of things that bee Hee saw him as hee could with his vnderstanding he tooke notice of him with his vnderstanding Hee lost not the memorie of the things hee had who acquired the knowledge of what he had not Had he lost what he had it had beene in vaine for Abraham to haue said Sonne remember Ex hac parabola discimuâ— well resolueth Euthymius quòd in futuro saeculo non solùm peccatores vident bonâ—s boni peccatores sed â—gâ—â—scunt etiam igrotos Nam Diues ab Abraham câ—gâ—oscâ—tur Lazarus à reprobo epulons saith Gregory Nor will nor effects of will are extinguished in them either Naturall in good things as the rich man desired his Brethrens good or Deliberatiue in bad as being immutable vnto good And doubtlesse if in Carcare it be retained much more it is eminent in palatio The Saints in glory haue a greater portion Glory being the Perfection of Grace and Grace the aduancer of Nature then the Reprobate in Hell can enioy of the acts and perfections of the Soule Vpon this ground and perswasion of the Soules indowments Celerinus in Cyprian writeth vnto Lucianus a man readie to be offered vp in persecution thus Rogo itaque Domine peto per Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum vt caeteris Collegis tuis fratribus mejs Dominis referas abijs petas vt quicunque prior vestrûm coronatus fuerit istis Sororibus nostris Numeriae Candidae tale peccatum remittant
their refreshing and consolation And the occasion considered wherupon Dion spake them not for their actuall assistance and reliefe Reader doe but goe view the Euidence and tell me if the alleager be not either much to seeke or much more too blame a very silly man or a sly Sophist and very Colluder in the point in question Another a better Euidence is of those times as ancient See 〈◊〉 again◠〈…〉 and more authenticke witnesse then Dionysius a legall man and without exception any way 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I salute that beloued and much affected name whom Oh might I see placed in my seate then when I am with Christ enioying Heauen Hee meaneth Hero a Deacon of the Church of Antioch and Successor to himselfe in that See Which speech had not passed doubtlesse from that holy man had hee not beene perswaded that the dead with Christ had notice of and were interessed in the affaires of the liuing in this World I grant this was his iudgement or opinion But yet for all that this is nothing to purpose For Ignatius doth not will Hero Who in that which they alledge desires onely to know his Successor and that by special dispensation or his people of Antioch to call vnto him after death no nor yet assure Hero he would pray for him The most that we can resolue of is this that hee should know him to be his Successor and take notice of him in his Spirit And that this also by speciall dispensation For saith he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I would to God I might see him that is be permitted to see him as if it were not ordinary For then hee needed not haue so wished if he could not choose but see and so take notice of him It is granted that Saints by speciall dispensation may take notice and care and patronage in some speciall Actions of some speciall men or Societies in whom they are more neerely interessed as was Ignatius in the Antiochians What if I should say by some naturall though vnknowne approximation this will neuer produce so large an inference as therefore any man may call vpon any Saint in any place at any time for any exigence or occasion And it is onely his desire which proues nothing to their purpose He that knoweth the Inualidity of a particular to inferre or conclude a generall will not much be moued with such allegations Lastly I adde Ignatius doth but wish it and a man may wish meere impossibilities Irenaeus as in age Another Euidence is out of Jrenaeus so also succeedeth in allegation In which the man meant to make vs merry or maruell in sending Eue the wife of Adam and Grand-mother of all dead A merry one and being gathered vnto her place and people so many thousand yeeres before the Virgin Mary was borne to invocate for Intercession that blessed Virgin Et sicut Eua seducta est are the words of Irenaeus vt effugeret Deum reade it aufugeret Sic Maria suasa est obedire Deo vt Virginis Euae virgo Maria fieret aduocata A meere impossibility in Nature and in Reason that the Virgin Mary should be Eues Intercessor yet closed vp with this Epiphoâ—ema Quid clarius because there is the word Aduocata in the Text. Or else a mad one I may say Quid clarius that the man is beside himselfe Yet so beside him and out of him supposed that rayling Franciscan answerable to his name Feuardentius tooke vp the same allegation and as hee dreamed it to be Euâ—dentissimum so he scored it also in his margin with this goodly glosse Beata virgo Maria 〈◊〉 caeterorum pecâ—antium aduocata est I wonder he did not adde this excellent blasphemy thereunto Euam peccantes à morte redemit For so it ensueth in Irenaeus Et quemadmodum astrictum est morti genus humanum per virginem soluatur per virginem Aequalance disposita virginalis inobedientia per virginalem obedientiam Much more plaine for Redemption then that former part is for Intercession yet I hope the man will not fasten such blasphemy vnto so great a worthy in Christs Church as was Irenaeus His meaning is this and no more That as by Eua sinne came into the World Valesse the Father be soberly expâ—unded and by sinne death So by the Virgins meanes life and saluation instrumentally In that shee was that chosen vessell of the holy Ghost to beare him in her wombe who by taking flesh of her redeemed vs from the curse of death So shee in a sort was cause of Life and in that sort Mediatrix that is Aduocata here not Intercessor for Eue who was so long in time before her First then the man playeth fast and loose the Colluder As by them he is not in a threefold regarded in the ambiguity of the word Aduocata Secondly hee inferreth an impossibility and therefore an absurdity that the blessed Virgin Mary did pray for Eue which must either be in Heauen and then she needed it not or in Limbo and that was but for a time till Christ in his death descended into Limbo and led both her and all other the Fathers thence with himselfe into Heauen Thirdly according to the opinon fastened vnto Irenaeus She is Aduocata to none but to Virgins and therefore not promiscuously to be called one of Any and by those of whom she is Inuocated to be so called on onely for a time For so is the comparison there instituted betwixt Eua and Maria Virgines To him succeedeth Eusebius in the Controuersie whose testimony speaketh thus A fourth they haue out of Eusebius as there it standeth reported out of 13 booke 7 Chapter of his Euangelicall preparation Haec nos quotidiè factitamus qui verae pietatis milites vt Dei amicos honorantes monumenta quoque illorum accedimus votaque ipsis facimus tanquam viris sanctis quorum intercessione ad Deum non parum juvari profitemur I answer first Eusebius doth not speake Where he speakes onely of the generall mediation of the Saints for vs. of particular Inuocation for partâ—cular Intercession But of generall Mediation of the Saints in Heauen who without all question nor doth any man doubt of it doe pray for Saints on earth in generall according to the nature of Communion of Saints without any Intercession vsed to them Inuocation of them by that other moity of the Church militant on earth Specialy that of the Martyres Secondly Eusebius doth not enlarge his speech to all the Saints departed of any state or condition whatsoeuer but whatsoeuer it be that he saith he confineth it vnto Martyres onely whom he calleth according as the alleager hath it Verae pietatis milites Now the case of Martyres and other Saints is not equall or paralell For in the opinion of the Ancients that of Martyres was paramount to all other departed with God as enioying more priuiledges from God with
Saint Ignatius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In consideration and regard hereof let vs preferre our abiding here before all other content and pleasure whatsoeuer That so being aduantaged with much content we may through the meanes of their intercession become Inmates with them our fellow seruants And this was rather in the opinion of Him or Them that came thether And rather fitting himselfe to the opinion of others then expressing his owne to visite their shrine by working vpon his or their affection then in any actuall or reall performance of the Saint toward them as the same Father expresseth it in his second Oration vpon the Martyr Babylas 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The very sight of the Coffin presented by view to the vnderstanding amaseth it streight and so affecteth it in that very sort as if the party there interred were present really to be seene with the eye and together in prayer vnto God ioyned with vs. A plaine proofe of Chrysostomes resolution in the point who seemeth to be â—o very much for Saints mediation A strong imagination and no more an impression no reality vpon the vnderstanding And he addeth yet a case parallell of those men that hauing lost some one deare friend or other and going to visit the place of his buriall imagine that they behold him personally there which we know is an ordinary impossibility 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 addresse their speech vnto him or them as present as hearing instantly Imagination is strong they say and doth much sure it doth which produceth such effects in Inuocation for which Neither will they haue any better successe either with the Greeke or Latine Fathers if Chrysostome may interpret his owne meaning there is no great warrant in his workes Thus the Iury of Greeke Fathers ten of them at least haue said what they knew or could speake in the Case vpon their knowledge 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Not at all to purpose nor answering the question propounded to them The Latines succeed if not more full to purpose yet more frequent to the point For to supply defaulters if any were there are returned well-nigh a Decem non tales as being postnati and so partiall that speake indeed to the practice since it was in being out of the verge of our limitted time Gregory the Great he of Tours and some other And yet against the foreman is more exception For they are honest men at least of good reputation in the Country amongst their neighbours although their witnesse as interessed be not receiueable but Cornelius is a Counterfeit no legall man a flat Knight of the post Ex Latinis saith Bellarmine S t. Cornelius Papa in Epistola 1 a. quae est de translatione corporum Apostolorum is the first and formost that is brought to speake much to the preiudice of this cause more to the iust reproofe of the Defendant that bringeth that party to speake for him whom himselfe else-where will not acknowledge otherwise then for a Rogue For there hee resolueth that onely foure Epistles of Cornelius are extant and this alledged is none of them De scriptor Ecclesiae But he set forth his booke of Ecclesiastique Writers since and therefore more aduised vpon better search and second thoughts he hath not authorised the Epistle as authenticke But admit Cornelius were the Writer therof and not some boy of the Scullery or of the Stable yet the fellow whosoeuer speaketh not to purpose Orantes Deum Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum vt intercedentibus Sanctis suis Apostolis maculas vestrorum purget peccatorum The prayer that is made is to Iesus Christ and to no Saint There is mention of Intercession but without Inuocation Nor needed that For he meaneth onely such and no other Intercession but such which the Apostles of the Lamb and Church of the redeemed in heauen did make vnto God for their Brethren yet in Earth And euen that Intercession is not inlarged vnto all but confined vnto the Apostles alone Saint Peter and Paul because the present occasion touched theÌ„ alone The most that can be made of it is this that God would be pleased to apply the generall Intercession of those Apostles in and with the Church triumphant vnto this part of the Church Militant that at present did this honour vnto those Apostles this is all Saint Hillary is the next man Saint Hillaries testimony is more true then materiall and his witnesse is true vpon Psalme â—29 but not to purpose Hee speaketh onely of Angelicall Intercession Intercessione Angelorum non naetura Dei indiget sed infirmit as nostra As speaking onely of Angels Not a word touching Inuocation or Intercession of Saints Now Saints and Angels as it hath beene declared are ill and ignorantly combined per omnia in this case which are most what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Incompatible companions in the point Secondly hee speaketh of particular Intercession for them And of particular Intercession vnto whom they haue beene imployed or vnto whom they are assigned The first is a singular extraordinary case and so holdeth not for generall practice euery where The second is ordinary as is supposed which if it be indeed as is supposed then it is to purpose but not to the question and therefore this witnesse might haue been spared as that is in part out of 124. Psalme where if any intercession be intended it is that in generall for the whole Church Sed neque desunt stare volentibus Sanctorum custodiae neque munitiones Angelorum And anon to explaine the praesidium hee meaneth Ac ne leue praesidium in Apostolis vel Patriarchis ac Prophetis vel potius in Angelis qus Ecclesiam quadam custodiâ circumsipâ—runt crederemus adiectum est Et Dominus in circuitu populi sui This is their Praesidium a sure one indeed the other is accessory and for all out of that Communion and Society of Saints in the both Triumphant and Militant Church Saint Ambrose is produced to speake next but he speaketh not home as they would haue him Saint Ambrose speakes not out of full resolution nor to purpose as they alledge him Obsecrandi sunt Angeli qui nobis ad praesidium dati sunt Martyres obsecrandi quorum videmur nobis corporis quoddam pignore patrocinium vindicart Possunt pro peccatis rogare nostris But onely out of some opinion of their patronage qui proprio sanguine etiamsi quae habuerant peccata lauerunt Isti enim sunt Dei Martyres nostri praesules speculatores vita actuumque nosirorum Non erubescamus cos intercessores nostrae inâ—irmitatis adhibere quia ipsi infirmitatem corporiâ— etiam cum vincerent cognouerunt The very carriage of this passage telleth vs thus much that Saint Ambrose spake it not as out of resolution or conclusion Theologicall It was but opinion that they were our Patroni His speech bewrayeth his meaning Videmur we doe seeme to haue
of the Righteous This being supposed needes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that hope of great helpe and assistance from them by so free accesse and representation of our Prayers vnto God as these men talke of from those who could not euen in their owne opinions intimate their owne suites vnto God in presence representatiuely being not admitted thither where hee had his residence not comming to looke into the Glasse of the Deity For they were it is taught in Limbo a verge of Hell farre enough remote from God and Heauen Thus it is determined by him that can tell Haec quaestio fundamentum est omnium aliarum namely concerning the honour due and done vnto them Canonization of them Assistance from and by them an Sanctorum animae Deum videant vere beatae sâ—nt ante diem iudiâ—ij So that Irenaeus the Author of the Questions vnder Iustine Martyrs name Tertullian Origen Hillary Chrysostome Theodoret and others must be spunged out from the list and Catalogue of Assertors of this point The Saints departed may profitably be inuoked Farther it may be noted in this generall view that in many passages of the Ancients And lastly in many thinâ—â— they are mâ—â—rly Rhetoricall pretended for this particular those Rethoricall Figures Prosopopeyes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Compellations of holy Saints and Martyrs to be found in the Panegyricall Orations of the Greeke Fathers especially are directed not at large to any Saint or blessed soule as to parties vnknowne Specially speaking to Saints supposed to haue more particular intâ—lliâ—ence and care of them without our acquaintance but onely to such as had or be supposed to haue had some more speciall and reserued reason of intirenesse presence assistance or intelligence with them then others had as interessed in the State Calling Profession Place Life and manner of Conuersation of the Petitioners or directed vnto such as were their familiars and acquainted in this life and so more priuate and peculiarly addicted vnto them in Heauen Who peraduenture might as hath beene said through peculiar dispâ—nsaâ—ion be very carefull of their good intend their necessities and behoofe and through that peculiar dispensation attend the occasions sometime of their acquaintance according to that practice and opinion in vse specified in that compact betwixt Cyprian and Cornelius Bishop of Rome These generall Obseruations These fâ—â—e obseruations may helpe vs in the allegation of the texts of Father may be exemplified in the particular allegations of texts of Fathers either representatiuely for the body of the Church in Councels or else particularly in their priuate writings and allegations which are not demonstrations of the Church Doctrine in those times but onely priuate opinions of some men deliuered obiter and vpon the by without any contestation at all or violence for the maintayning of them Which seuerally perswade not but being laid together if they speake one thing and runne all one way may not be lightly reiected or cast off Nam quae non prosunt singula multa invant Therefore to ioyne issue let vs try their force and see of what efficacy they are of to perswade to a generall opinion and beliefe Dionysius Areopagita leadeth the Ring as he is cited by the great Master of Controuersies in his 7. Chapter of the Church-Hierarchy See it first in Dien Ar. Idem sit acsi sole suos radios sanis elargiente oculis sibi quis oculos eruens solaris luminis particeps fieri postulat Sic impossibilium superfluâ spe ille suspensus est qui sanctorum flagitat preces Naturae ipsorum consentaneus sacras operationes abigit I will take no exception to the person of this witnesse Whose Testimony if it be good let him passe for an honest legall man though hee be generally anciently and probably also suspected for a counterfeit and held insufficient to giue any witnesse in vpon euidence of Record To the witnesse and testimony which he giueth I answere Here is no mention of the practice nor yet Iustification for the rule of Invocation of Saints Nay rather that practice in generall or particular is disallowed as vnprofitable because vsed in a Subiect that is impossible Flagitare preces Sanctorum is superfluous because the hope of helpe from them is impossible It is saith he as if a man that hath no eyes should expect or desire to be enlightened from the beames of the Sunne which shineth indeed forth vnto them that are api nati fitted to receiue it and capable of it Nor can the allegation bee aduantaged any way because Sani are comforted and refreshed by the light of the Sunne which indeed shineth vnto those that are capable of it For it is confessed to hold proportion there with that the Saints departed doe in generall pray for the Estate of the Church militant vpon Earth May well be applyed against them for the state and necessity of particular Churches or priuate men their friends with which they were acquainted in time of life That is That the Sunne indeed sheddeth and casteth beames abroad But the question is of particular Intercession for any man that is of applications of those beames of the Sunne to the eyes of the blinde in vaine and without profit which are pleasant and profitable to him that hath his sight Thus this Testimony as it lyeth in the body of those Controuersies is pregnant against the Pleaders of it But farther in the Deposition subscribed with his owne hand And it cannot make for them if Sancti be so vnderstood as he meant it Areopagita speaketh a farre off and to another purpose Sancti in Dionysius Language are not Defuncti or Regnantes with Christ as the Controuerser supposeth but the word is to be taken according to the phrase of those most ancient times So Saints in Saint Paul are not Saint Stephen Saint Iames and such as they Then dead The phrase is not once I suppose in him that way but men then aliue in the bosome of the Church parts and members of the Church militant The Saints in Dionysius answerably were such holy men as serued at the Altar as the last words in the Testimony as it is laid downe there might very well haue informed him Et Naturae ipsorum consentaneas sacras operationes abigit In effect Will not regard or partake of the Doctrine and instruction which they affoord him And the latter words restored to their true construction or of the Sacraments which they minister vnto him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In neglect and disregard of the gifts of God and in breach of his Commandements Againe I adde that Bellarmines eyes were not in his head when hee tooke a view of the Testimony of Dionysius or else hee tooke vp the witnesse from some Knight of the post who was ready to say any thing for his owne aduantage For the whole discourse of Dionysius in that Section is concerning Prayer for the dead not vnto them for
him This Testimony in my vnderstanding speaketh to another purpose not for Intercession by Inuocation The Prayer here intended is made not to Saint nor Soule nor Angell but to God He supposeth so doe all that those Holy ones with God And of prayers made onely to God doe continually pray vnto God for the Church which prayers he desireth God would mercifully heare and grant vnto them for the good of his chosen vpon Earth Both parts in this passage militant triumphant employed in Prayer The prayer of either directed vnto God This onely difference The one as in necessity praying for themselues the other in security themselues interceding for others Neither Inuocating other for to doe it but de motu proprio and correspondent to their state Theodoret spake of the like prayers Theodoret intendeth no more but so in that testimony taken into the Controuersies Ego autem huic narrationi sinem imponens rogo quaeso vt per horum intercessionem diuinum consequar auxilium Rogo quaeso nor this nor that Saint but God alone to this end and purpose that by their Intercession and Prayers I may finde assistance which might be done although hee neuer said Sancte Tu aut Tu ora pro me as being a member of that holy Society for which they intercede continually And yet if they did intercede for him particularly it was vpon occasion extraordinary his paines and desert of them and the Church in that History which he wrote out of which this Testimony is recited De vitis Patrum But speciall Actions and particular Dispensations as hath beene often said are no rules for generall directions of Piety in point of deuotion and of Gods seruice necessarily incumbent But whereas the Controuersor telleth vs that Theodoret in Historia Sanctorum Patrum singulas vitas ita concludit If hee meane in those precise words it is most false And for that which they vrge out of his History is meerly belied scarce doth hee conclude any so If he vnderstand it to that sence it is likewise false For the 1. the 13.16.17 lines haue no such thing at all the rest that haue the thing yet differ in substance somtime often in circumstance very seldome therein agreeing The eight in number falleth in with that practice of the Ancients of friends vnto friends to remember them vnto God Ego autem cuius dum adhuc esset superstes percepi benedictionem ed vt nunc quoque fruar precatus finem imponam And in the 18. to the same purpose Ego autem rogo vt illam consequar intercessionem quam huc vsque percepi dum esset adhuc superstes Not by speciall Inuocation of him to remember him but by prayer vnto God that he may remember him or if vnto him as vitâ i d. Rogans Sanctos yet not with such confidence as if he were certaine to be assuredly heard Vitâ vj. Ego autem nunc oro vt quam dare potest cius consequar intercessionem He was not resolued what manner it was but whatsoeuer it was desireth to obtaine it So or we haue no certainty in the point or that which wee haue is not to purpose not to interpose an exception against the party as incompetent because suspected or misvnderstood because of that number who held that Saints departed doe not yet see God Damascene and Theophylact are not Homines legales to be empanelled vpon this Iury of twelue out of the Greeke Church being both Postnati vnto Primitiue antiquity and out of the verge of the Churches purity Damascene liuing in the yeere 730. and Theophylact suruiuing William Conqueror Their testimony out of Chrysostome of the Emperor his interceding To conclude with Chrysostome thus hee speaketh to the purpose in the Controuersies Homil 66. ad populum Antiochenum circa finem Nam ipse qui purpuram indutus est He meaneth the Emperor the Prince then in state Accedit illa coÌ„plexurus sepulchra fastu deposito stat sanctis supplicaturus vt pro se intercedant apud Deum Et scenarum fabrum Piscatores orat qui diademate incedit redimitus Hee meaneth Saint Peter Saint Andrew Iames Iohn and Paul though Bellarmines Interpretor whosoeuer hee was hath ignorantly and falsly and impiously too translated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 scenarum fabrum as if Saint Paul had beene a Stage-maker who was a Tent-maker as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or rather 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth and not a stage-maker a course of life I dare say he did detest But let that passe as not to purpose I answere first If the testimony be no better then the title of the Oration If it be true it is not worth three blew beanes in a blew bladder For Chrysost neuer made halfe so many Orations vnder that title of Ad populum Antiochenum Bellarmine himselfe else where is my Author 〈◊〉 de Scriptori 〈…〉 3â—8 Ex homilijs ad populum Antiochenum viginti vna tantum reperiri dicuntur manuscriptae in antiquis bibliothecis Secondly this is onely a narration what was done Yet it is 〈◊〉 narration without any approbation of the thing done it is no approbation of the thing done or doing of it The testimonies recited out of the 5. and 8. Homil. vpon Saint Mathew and 1. vpon the 1 Thessal doe speake of Saints liuing and not departed and so are not to purpose The other testimonies speak of Saints liuing or ad rem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is good to enioy or participate the prayers of Saints and hee instanceth the profit by Saint Peter deliuered out of prison at the prayers of the Church which I know and I thinke our Masters doe beleeue was of the Church militant and not triumphant So Hom. 44. in Gen. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Which we vnderstanding beloued let vs haue recourse vnto the Intercession of Saints and intreat them to recommend vs to God But as I said he meaneth liuing not departed Saints as interpreting that of Ier. 3.15 And my selfe could furnish them with a better But I will helpe them to a Text indeed that commeth home et rem acu carrying with it approbation nor so alone but also inuitation to performe it Tom. 5. pag. 481. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Not onely vpon this day their holy day and solemne festiuall but other dayes likewise let vs persist and attend vpon them at their Memories he meaneth Bernice Prosdocia and Domnia let vs make meanes vnto them intreat them to vouchsafe and vndertake the Patronage and protection of vs They can doe much with God now dead as they could aliue much more and rather dead then aliue For now they beare about them the markes of Christ Iesus and can obtaine any thing of our Lord and King if they but shew these markes vnto him And yet this doth not proue precisely and home And yet will not that proue the point in Controuersie the point
it and no more Secondly And that opinion 〈…〉 as patrocinium quoddam is from full patronage it was restrained euen in that his opinion not left at randon or full liberty Patrocinium quoddaÌ„ is all he can stretch vnto he could not well resolue what where or when it was afforded It is not an impossible thing for theÌ„ to pray for vs. And he that saith so no more but so might as well be produced to say it was no certaine thing Beside Saint Ambrose there speaketh of there Intercession in Genere for the Church not in particular for any man vpon occasion And not more vncertaine then too generall Intercession at large and of Inuocation at large that which is else-where more cleerely explained that God would be pleased to accept and to grant the prayers and Petitions that they make for vs the Church yet militant vpon Earth being certainly inserted into the Couenant of grace Baptismo sanguinis and by shedding of their owne blood so seeing and enioying God that like vnto Angels Guardians they become vnto vs Praesules vitae speculatores actuumque nostrorum vnto whom res nostrae did belong and appertaine as the ioynt Actions of a Community doe in common to any of that Society The manner how they were so The tearmes how farre they were so The meanes whereby they did so he resolueth not he could not tell and therfore contenteth himselfe in generall termes with that onely Intercession which without all doubt they make for the Church which may cause them desire to know what they can though what they might know he nor no other could certainly tell and therefore could not warrant as indeed he doth not any ordinary Inuocation of any one Saint for any particular occasion whatsoeuer What his opinion was therein no man can better tell then himselfe or speake to more purpose then he hath done In Comment ad cap. 1. Epistol ad Rom. where hee concludeth Ad Deum quem vtique nihil latet promerendum suffragatore non est opus sed mente denotâ It was not then of necessity in Saint Ambrose opinion to vse Intercession of Saint or Angell He might goe himselfe by personall addresse and euery pious deuout man might so goe in person needed not vse Intercession of any if any did interced for him good if none did yet lost he nothing thereby Lastly whatsoeuer Saint Ambrose hath or opined in that place it is not meant de sanctis with God in generall And not meanâ— de sanctis 〈◊〉 in generall but of Martyres 〈◊〉 particular but onely of Martyres in Particular Now their case was singular their priuiledges surmounting in the opinion of antiquity And therefore what by some is applied vnto Martyres is not to be transferred vnto all in generall It was an vse in the Primitiue Church to pray for the dead how and wherefore I dispute not now But he that should doe so for any Martyr in Saint Augustines iudgement much wronged the Martyr Hierome concluding his Funerall Oration vpon Paula Gregory Nazianzen hath taught Saint Hierome also how to Rhetorize desireth her in heauen to assist him with her prayers thus Vale Paula cultoris tui vltimam senectutem Orationibus jâ—ua This hee learned of his Master Gregory Nazianzene and both of them as Panegyrists in RhetoruÌ„ scamnis For it is no more but a Rhetoricall conuersion vnto her not of force to conclude a Diuinity probleme Secondly I answere it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a wish and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And it appears as it is onely a wish a direct prayer vnto her Thirdly it was addressed to one his most familiar intiâ—e and ancient friend and therefore no way obligatory or exemplary for vs Addressed to a late familiar friend ex opere operato and it may be he spake it out of assurance of or with reference vnto some promise or compact betwixt them made as in the case of Cyprian and Cornelius Lastly Hierome was perswaded shee did remember him already Vpon ground of her kind remembrance and so it was no prayer by direction For so else-where we finde it concerning Blesilla Loquitur illa alia multa quae taceo pro te Dominum rogat mihique vt de eius mente securus sum veniam impetrat Peccatorum Maxâ—imus of Turin by the like addresse concludeth his Panegyricall Sermon vpon Saint Agnes The like addresse Maximus of T. had vnto S Agnes Itaque O splendida Christo pulchra Dei filio omnibus Angelis et Archangelis grata vt nostri meminisse digneris quibus possumus precilus exoramus He made that Sermon vpon her Anniuersary minde day and as then fortè present at that speciall occasion by peculiar dispensation so he directeth his speech vnto her and that not with confidence of being heard Without any great confidence of being heard Quibus possumus precibus is as much as nothing In effect as I can so I direct this my addresse vnto thee heare and helpe me accordingly as thou canst and maist So the man in the point was not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He was not so fully perswaded of that or any Saints assistance as that he went farther then opinion In another place to that purpose hee speaketh so reseruedly Ideò veneremur eos in saeculo quos defensores habere possumus in futuro Possumus peraduenture and no more vncertaine he was whether I or no And yet farther Possumus saue onely those as wee were sometime interessed in here And thirdly Defensores vpon generall cases of the Church not in particular assayes of our owne The Emperor Theodosius in Ruffinus History Lib. 2. cap. 33. doth not inuocate any Saint And wee cannot thinke much otherwise of Theodesius or Saints at all onely vpon that exigent of the Rebellion of Eugenius and his Complices he went in Procession with Clergy and Laity that were firme vnto him in great deuotion to the Oratories Churches Chappels Sepulchers and Shrines of the Apostles of Martyrs and other holy Saints there he made his prayers vnto God in Christ not vnto them though hee were so perswaded they could and would take notice of him and assist him with their prayers vnto God Almighty as well they might then and hee be so perswaded at that time concerning them in such a publike action as that was in which not onely the Imperiall Maiesty and State Though his was also in a 〈◊〉 action â—â—â—thing both the Imperiall State and the State of Religion but Christ an Religion also lay at stake vpon the hazard and tryall of that dayes aduenture If then any some or all the Saints of Paradise did assuredly take notice and were informed in particular and this were also to be proued yet is it no warrant for their ordinary knowledge in other passages nor yet for extraordinary when we will haue it no more then that wee expect in all
any The Louanists found it ascribed vnto Seucrianus in some Copies which argueth it a stragler a masterlesse piece a rogue And more then that a blasphemous varlet in this very place recited by the Cardinall Controuersor Omnes cursus naturae virgo Maria in Domino nostro Iesu Christo suscepit vt omnibus ad se confugientibus foeminis subueniret sic restauraret so it followeth where the Cardinall left of omnegenus foeminarum ad se venieutium noua Eua seruando virginitatem sicut omnegenus viuorum Adam nouus recuperat Dominus Iesus Is not this a varlet in graine a fit Patron for Inuocation that in the very grand-work of Redemption parteth stakes betwixt Christ Iesus and the Virgin Mary that entitleth her nouam Eâ—am as Christ is called nouus Adam That professeth she restored all Woman-kind as Christ did all Mankind I suppose William Postel coyned this worke to giue credit and countenance vnto his old Beldame Howsoeuer the Cardinall wanted witnesses it seemeth that tooke in such a Rascall to make vp a number for want of better euidences and to purpose As for Saint Leo The other of Leo if they were doubled could not help their cause hee might afford him many moe testimonies of like nature concerning Saint Peters Intercession as Serm. 3. in die Anniuersario Serm. 1. de jeiunio 10. mensis Serm. 5.6.8 in Natali Apostolorum All which extend no farther then this that some speciall Church and people as Saint Peter had ouer the Roman Church Being all of particulars and yet Leo goeth no farther then this By his merits and Prayers we hope to find assistance Intercession without any Inuocation These testimonies looke toward Intercession that produced in the Controuersies is for neither Vnlesse this may be remembred for to establish Inuocation Make you friends of the vnrighteous Mammon that is make Intercession and call vpon Mammon For the text of Saint Leo looketh that way Per bonam aemulationem ipsorum exambiâ—e suffragia Saint Augustines authority would haue preuailed much if he had fauoured the cause I haue reserued Saint Augustine for the last as being the man vpon whose shoulders for dogmaticall points disputed and resolued the Church of God hath as much relyed as vpon any since the Apostles times For scarcely is intercession found in him vnlesse it be of Martyres who in the opinion of the Church and also of Saint Augustine But he resolues it onely as an act of speciall dispensation for Martyres had an especiall priuiledge aboue other Saints And therefore he that yeeldeth Martyres as were interessed rebus viuentium denieth it precisely of other Saints Non ideò putandum est vivorum rebus quoslibet enteresse possed defunctos quoniam quibusdam sanandis vel adiuvandis Martyres adsunt Sed ideò potius intelligendum est quod per diuinam Potentiam Martyres viuorum rebus intersint quoniam defuncti per naturam propriaÌ„ viuoruÌ„ rebus interesse non possunt So that by Saint Augustines resolution it is an Act of speciall dispensation no naturall ability or sufficiency in any Saint to take notice of any thing done vpon earth And secondly so an act of speciall diuine dispensation that it belongeth vnto some onely and is not communicated vnto all generally Martyres alone haue that priuiledge Which instance of Saint Augustine out of the opinion of the Church answereth well-nigh all allegations of any practice this way for Inuocation or Intercession in antiquity And lastly Martyres with some limitation Ad memorias eorum And for them too with some limitation and not else-where These Memoriae being now no where extant Inuocation in his opinion is ceased Or else in Natali eorum die vpon the day of their consummation which being but once in the yeare and in so long a tract of time vncertaine also Inuocation can bee but seldome and then too vncertaine and they being onely to be then Inuoked doe make Intercession onely then Sicut dicit Apostolus non omnes sancti habent dona curationum ita nec in omnibus memorijs sanctorum ista fieri voluit ille qui diuidit propria vnicuique sicut vult August Epistola 137. And the testimonies recited in the Controuersies out of Augustine are all for Martyres not Saints of any other rancke or reckoning betwixt whom and Martyres he putteth this difference that Cum pro caeteris defunctis oretur Martyres pro nobis rather intercedant Thus they spake and wrote that for fiue hundred yeares or thereabout after Christ And so it was resolued by the first and best in the Primitiue Church were the chiefe and principall amongst the Worthies of Dauid Whereof not any one speaketh positiuely to the point as in full resolution of the truth of that conclusion Holy Saints and Angels are to be Inuocated And therefore the latter Writers Those that remaine vpon record filed vp in the Controuersies Gregory the first Gregory of Turon Bede Anselme Bernard are later postnati to the practice growne into vse and therefore not authenticall in the question Nor did Philip Melanthon at all enlarge Quiante Gregorium ignotam fuisse scripsit sanctorum Inuocationem Namely for vse and approbation of the Church And Decrees of Councels are the lesse to be listned vnto As for decrees of Councels in determinations of Faith Our Masters of Controuersies are not much troubled with any great store of them In the appendex vnto the Councell of Chalcedon the Bishops of Europe write thus vnto the Emperour Leo. Sanctissimum Proterium in choro ordine sanctorum Martyrum ponimus ejus intercssione misericordem propitium Deum habere postulamus But first of all it is no Councell decree indeed it specifieth a practice of the Church and so also a beleefe They vsed to pray vnto God that he would be pleased to accept the Intercession of Martyres which is nothing to the point in question For here is inuocation directed vnto God not Saints Intercession of Saints is remembred but not of all onely Martyres Then Intercession is not Inuocation It is and may be where Inuocation is not etiam in particular but this is also in generall For if not the whole Church represented yet for the Church representing in a speciall action a peculiar time singular occasion so remarkeable and notorious it could not be hid they desire God that Proterius might remember them and commend them vnto the Maiesty of Heauen The second allegation is of lesse operation Flauianus post morteÌ„ viuit Martyr pro nobis orat It is onely an asseueration what he did not Inuocation that so he might and that which he did was a speciall case of Intercession for them whom he knew in the flesh of deprecation for the state of the Church whereof hee had speciall notice in his life being therein interessed particularly But quid hoc ad Bacchum for ordinary practice commonly Shew mee any positiue assertion of Father any Decree of