opinion who was a married Presbyter 't was not so in the opinion of those Bishops Athanasius a speaks of who were married nor so in our Island b for near six hundred years Protestants deny Prayer for the Dead this they had from Aerius Aerius was not condemned for an Heretique by Saint Augustine for denying Prayer for the Dead he onely saith that Aerius fell into Arrius his Heresie Propria quoque dogmata addidisse nonnulla dicens orare pro mortuis non oportere and added some private opinions of his own saying that we ought not to pray for the Dead So Augustine and Dogmata opinions are not Heresies Protestants deny Invocation of Saints this they had from Vigilantius for which he is condemned by Saint Hierome To deny Invocation of Saints was no Heresie in Hieromes time for Augustine his Contemporary saith that the Martyrs whose names are celebrated at the Altar non tamen a sacerdote invocantur are not yet invocated by the Priest Protestants deny Reverence to Images this they had from Xenias 'T is well known Worshiping of Images came first into the Church by the second Councel of Nice and as well known that that Councel was condemned by the Councel of Frankford And the Fathers ancienter far than both enroll the Gnosticks and Garpocratians aamongst Heretiques for adoring of Images and if it be Heresie to adore them it is certainly none to deny them Adoration Protestants deny the Real presence this they had from the Capernaites The Capernaites were no more Heretiques than the Disciples themselves of Christ for as one said How can this man give us his flesh to eat John 6. 52. So the other This is an hard saying who can hear it v. 60. Protestants deny Confession of sins to a Priest so did the Novatian Heretiques and the Montanists Protestants deny not Confession Auricular Luther who saith it is not necessary nor to be exacted yet withall saith it is utilis non contemnenda Profitable and not to be slighted Bucer commends it and saith It is the duty of Ministers to exhort rich persons to it Our Church in some cases injoyns it Nor did Novatus deny it his Error was that they who in Times of persecution fell away to Idolatry and delivered up the sacred Scriptures to be burnt should never be admitted to communicate with the faithfull in the Congregation not excluding them from all hope of mercy with God but from Communion with the Church that the strictnesse of this Discipline might strike into men the terror of Apostatizing And the Catholique Church her self went but one degree but one step further in her Indulgence beyond Novatus for whereas he in Reconciliation thought once was too much she her self thought but once enough and this was done as Augustine said Ne medicina vilis minus utilis esset aegrotis Lest the cheapness of the medicine should hinder the cure Nor did Montanus though too rigid in this particular deny it wholly for his Excommunication was but ad omne pene delictum for almost every offence and almost is a word of qualification of abatement Protestants say we are justified by faith onely this they had from the Pseudo-Apostles Our Justification by faith onely we had from Saint Paul Rom. 3. 28. and we hope he was no Counterfeit no false Apostle The false Apostles Saint Augustine speaks of were they who held that justifying Faith might be severed from and without works such an Opinion the Church of Rome maintains to this day and Protestants undertake the Papists for it Lastly as I have shewed your Majesty that your Church as it stands in opposition to ours is but a Congeries of so many Heresies so you shall finde our Doctrine amongst your own Doctors At last the Marques is come to his Lastly and if his So here proves no better than his former As his Lordships shews will be but So So And first he begins with the Greek Church who he saith holds Invocation of Saints Adoration of Images Transubstantiation Communion in one kinde but his Lordship is clearly out in the last for they communicat under both kindes though received at once {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} The Bread sopt in the Wine as Christophorus Angelus a Native of that place assures us And for Worshiping of Images he is half out there too for though they worship Images yet in their Churches they will not endure them as the Papists do In many points it cannot be deny'd they have confederacy with the Church of Rome they have their Errors and are censured for them by us and so they are by Bocardus a Monk with a Faxit Deus c. God grant there be no Fopperies crept into our Church meaning the Romish also His Lordship did toto coelo errare was Heaven wide when he reckon'd the Greek Church amongst our Doctors though true it is they hold indeed with us in the weightiest with the Papists in the most points And to little better purpose was it that he urgeth against us Luther the Hussites Wickliff and the Waldenses we own them not for our predecessors they had their Errors the Rancidity of Rome was not wholly out of them nor could it be expected otherwise For Illumination is not in Divinity as in Philosophy an instantaneous action we blesse God for the light they had though umbrageous and clouded yet was it such as discovered the nakednesse and shame of the Church of Rome And since the Marques hath begun to us we will requite him with shewing the Romanists our Tenets amongst their own Doctors whom they do and always account undoubted Catholiques and because he begins with Transubstantiation we will follow him in his own Order And first take notice when this opinion began to be an Article of Faith and for that hear Scotus Transubstantiation was not a point of Faith till the Lateran Councel And Tonstal Of the manner how Christs body is in the Bread it were better to leave every man to his own opinion as it was free before the Lateran Councel This Councel was celebrated as Bellarmine holds Anno 1215. And yet her decision hath not passed very currant neither For Scotus saith it doth not seem to be deduced out of Scripture that the substance of the Bread is not in the Eucharist Petrus de Alliaco That the substance of the Bread ceaseth to be there is not evidently imply'd out of Scripture Durandus T is rashnesse to affirm the body of Christ cannot be in the Sacrament but by conversion of the Bread into it Cajetan There appeareth not in the Gospel any coercive Argument that these words This is my Body are to be understood properly Walfridus Strabo After the celebration of the passe-over Christ delivered the Sacrament of his body and bloud in the Substance of bread and wine Ferus Since certain
be given in an Answer to all particulars cannot be required But this Answer to that Reply cannot comprehend the whole Arrest and content of this Tract there are some Animadversions relating to Dr. Bayly which I have stitcht as an Appendix and Lean-to to that Answer the word is I think concinn and apt enough it relating to that Doctor whom his Majesty suspected a a Lean-to to the Marques And truly that Discourse of his which I have undertaken speaks him little lesse wherein his Majesty not the Marques steps in as Opponent he that pretended so much b wariness of seeming to present the late King worsted was not wary at all of seeming to present himself according to the idiome of speech Worster'd Christian Charity bids me repute him under a notion more modified than Papist but Truth it self enforceth me to say he erreth in some particulars with the Church of Rome yet were he more than popish Papist profest my witness is in Heaven c ill will to the man I bear none a Member of the Church he is and d as the Church is a name of Vnity not of Separation so I heartily beseech God that all those who are Members of that Church and consigned Christians may be of one minde in the Lord and keep the Vnity of the spirit in the bond of peace which peace the Lord of peace himself give us always by all means Vale The late Kings Paper in answer to the Marques of Worcester Introductorily discussing some Controversies between the English and the Romish Church MY Lord I have perused your Paper whereby I finde that it is no strange thing to see Error triumph in Antiquity and flourish all those Ensignes of Vniversality Succession Vnity Conversion of Nations c. in the face of Truth and nothing was so familiar either with the Jews or Gentiles as to besmear the face of Truth with spots of Novelty for this was Jeremiahs case Jer. 44. 16. viz. As for the word which thou hast spoken unto us in the Name of the Lord we will not hearken unto thee but we will certainly do whatsoever thing hath gone forth of our own mouths to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven and to powre out drink-offering unto her as we have done we and our fathers our Kings and our Princes in the Cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem as we have done there is Antiquity we and our fathers there is Succession In the Cities of Judah and Jerusalem there is Vniversality so Demetrius urged Antiquity and Vniversality for the goddess Diana viz. That her Temple should not be despised nor her Magnificence destroyed whom all Asia and the World Worshipped So Symmachus that wise Senator though a bitter Enemy to the Christians Servanda est inquit tot seculis fides sequendi sunt nobis parentes qui feliciter sequuti sunt suos we must defend that Religion which hath worn out so many Ages and follow our Fathers steps who have so happily followed theirs So Prudentius would have put back Christianity it self viz. Nunc dogma nobis Christianum nascitur post evolutos mille demum Consules Now the Christian Doctrine begins to spring up after the revolution of a thousand Consul-ships But Ezekiel reades us another Lecture Ne obdurate cervices vestras ut patres vestri cedite manum Jehovae ingredimini sanctuarium ejus quod sanctificavit in saeculum colite Jehovam Deum vestrum Be not stiff-necked as your fore-fathers were resist not the mighty God enter into his Sanctuary which he hath consecrated for ever and worship ye the Lord your God Radbodus King of Phrygia being about to be baptized asked the Bishop what was become of all his Ancestors who were dead without being baptized The Bishop answered that they were all in Hell whereupon the King suddenly withdrew himself from the Font saying Ibi profecto me illis Comitem adjungam Thither will I go unto them no less wise are they who had rather err with Fathers and Councels than rectifie their understanding by the Word of God and square their Faith according to its Rules Our Saviour Christ saith we must not so much hearken to what hath been said by them of old time Matth. 21. 12. as to that which he shall tell you where Auditis dictum esse antiquitis is exploded and Ego dico vobis is come in its place which of them all can attribute that credit to be given unto him as is to be given to Saint Paul Yet he would not have us to be followers of him more than he is a follower of Christ 1 Cor. 11. 1. Wherefore if you cry never so loud Sancta mater Ecclesia sancta mater Ecclesia the holy mother Church holy mother Church as of old they had nothing to say for themselves but Templum Domini Templum Domini the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord we will cry as loud again with the Prophet quomodo facta est meretrix Urbs fidelis How is the faithfull City become an Harlot If you vaunt never so much of your Roman Catholick Church we can tell you out of Saint John that she is become the Synagogue of Sathan neither is it impossible but that the house of prayers may be made a Den of Thieves you call us Hereticks we answer you with Saint Paul Acts 24. 14. After the way which you call Heresie so worship we the God of our fathers believing all things which were written in the Law and the Prophets I will grant you that all those marks which you have set down are marks of the true Church and I will grant you more that they were belonging to the Church of Rome but then you must grant me thus much that they are as well belonging to any other Church who hold and maintain that Doctrine which the Church of Rome then maintained when she wrought those Conversions and not at all to her if she have changed her first Love and fallen from her old Principles for it will do her no good to keep possession of the Keys when the Lock is changed now to try whether she hath done so or no there can be no better way than by searching the Scriptures for though I grant you that the Catholick Church is the white in that Butt of Earth at which we all must aim yet the Scripture is the heart centre or peg in the midst of that white that holds it up from whence we must measure especially when we are all in the white We are all of us in gremio Ecclesiae so that Controversies cannot be decided by the Catholick Church but by the Scriptures which is the thing by which the nearness nnto Truth must be decided for that which must determine Truth must not be fallible but whether you mean the consent of Fathers or the Decrees of General Councels they both have erred I discover no Fathers nakedness but deplore their infirmities that we
censure of the Romish Church and his Lordship hopes to prove it out of Scripture If you neglect to hear this Church you shall be a Heathen and a Publican Matth. 18. 17. This Church in the Marques his sense is the Church of Rome and I grant it is but not the Church of Rome onely for it is as well the English the French the Geneva or any other particular Church and admit it were onely the Church of Rome yet the matters wherein that Church is to be obeyed are not Articles of Faith neither the very Text tells us it is onely in points of scandal and breach of unity in civil matters His next Scripture is Ephes. 5. 27. where the Church shall be presented unto Christ a glorious Church not having spot or wrinkle Here is a Church I yield that cannot err but it is not the Romish Catholique Church no neither Romish nor Catholique if his Lordship means the Catholique militant Church for it is a Church that can neither err nor sin without spot and therefore their own Salmeron says It must be understood of the Triumphant Church and if his Lordship thought otherwise Augustine would have told him he was a Pelagian M. We say the Church hath been always visible you deny it Our Church saith nothing of this Point and therefore if I say any thing it must be ex abundanti dictum more than Covenants yet something I will say and something shall Liberius say too as a Salmeron quoteth him replying to Constantius his boast of the multitude of Arrians Non refert numerum esse magnum aut parvum nam Judaeorum Ecclesia in Babylone constituta ad tres pueros redacta fuit No matter whether the number be small or great for the Jewish Church in Babylon was reduced to three And at this time Liberius was Pope of Rome and because I am faln upon this time I would gladly have an answer where the Visibility of the Romish Church was unless they mean a Visibility of Heresie when Liberius himself excommunicated Athanasius and turn'd Arrian Nay more and to the very point where was the Visibility of the Catholique and true Church it self at that time but onely in that Pillar of Faith c Athanasius I confess Nazianzen says his Church had it {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} most singular to it self to be preserved from drowning in the Arrian Deluge but the visible shock and storm of Persecution no man stoutly withstood and overcame but Athanasius onely His Fathers Origen in Matth. hom 30. saith The Church is full of light but that light is fulgor veritatis he himself tells us so the brightness of Truth no external splendor what 's this to a visible Church Cyprian the Church of God encompassed with light sheds her beams through all the World Cyprian's light is like Origen's an inward light too and were it as the Sun an outward Light it would not shine always in every Horizon and where it doth shine it may sometimes be eclipsed Chrysost. Hom. 4. in Esay 6. speaketh of the duration and perpetuity not of the Visibility of the Church and saith It is easier for the Sun's light to be extinguished than for the Church utterly to be destroy'd or if you will {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} to disappear so saith Chrysostome and so say we too the Church wil be always visible for an Invisibility we hold not absolutly but comparatively it may be reduced to so inconsiderable a number as in regard of the paucity and fewness of the Professors the World will not own it under the notion of a Church Again Persecution may so controul the outward Profession of the Gospel that nothing belonging to external Government Discipline and Exercise of the Ministery shall be performed otherwise than by stealth and in a clandestine way Augustine speakes of the Visibility of the Church in his time that it was then visible not that it had been before or should be after him always so visible M. We hold the perpetual universality of the Church and that the Church of Rome is such a Church you deny it Our Church denieth not the Catholique or universal Church 't is an Article of the three Creeds she holds That the Romish is such a Church she doth deny because 't is in none of their Creeds and yet if it be in the Scripture I dare promise for her she shall and will believe it As to that place of Psalm 2. 8. I will give thee the Heathen for thine Inheritance and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy Possession It is a most clear Prediction of the calling of the Gentiles and that all the World shall be subdued by the power of the Gospel so here 's an Universality of Christ's Kingdom but not of the Romish Church But I confess the mischief is here is a Tibi dabo I will give thee and wheresoever the Church of Rome findes that she takes all for her own that follows Let us observe now Rom. 1. 8. I thank my God that your Faith is spoken of throughout the whole World That is to all the World it is published that Rome hath embraced the Christian Faith Is she the Catholique Church because of that sure this Text no way enforceth any such Illation for we are told as much of the Church of Thessalonica 1 Thess. 1. 8. that their Faith to God-ward is spread abroad in every place and then we must mend our Creed and say I believe the two Catholique Churches that of Thessalonica and that of Rome For his human Authorities take this note by the way and they are soon cleared The Primitive Church held that consent and unity in Doctrine made all Churches in truth to be One however distinguished by names The Church of Christ is One saith Cyprian divided into several Members through the whole World and this Unity made them al not only One but Apostolical and Primitive also for Omnes primae omnes Apostolicae dum unam omnes probant unitatem saith Tertullian All were Primitive all Apostolical whilest all shewed the same Unity yea and it made all Churches though otherwise particular Catholique too Therefore the Church of Alexandria was called the Catholique Church by Arsenius so Augustine was Catholicae Ecclesiae Episcopus Bishop of that Church which held the Catholique Faith and in this sense Rome was anciently stiled the Catholique Church So it was truly said by Hierome It is all one to say the Roman Faith and the Catholique Faith but though it was true then it is not true now for the Then and Now Roman Church are two M. We hold the Unity of the Church to be necessary in all points of Faith you deny it Our Church is here silent yet an Unity the Protestants hold too in essential matters of Faith and hold it so that if this Unity be a Note of the true Church they have there
the Pope as a common Father Adviser and Conductor to them all whereas the Protestants being not united under one Prince nor Patriarch are as severed and scattered Troops c. His Lordship might have remembred that but ten pages before Sir Edwin saith speaking of France The Catholiques are here divided into as different Opinions and in as principal matters of their Religion as they esteem them as the Protestants in any place that ever I heard of By which it is evident both that the Catholiques have jarrs and no small jarrs neither From Divisions the Marques dislodgeth and proceeds next to the bad Lives of Protestants I confesse by the little I have searched I see a great deal of false play in his Lordships Instances to lay all open were time mis-spent I will neither admit all his Accusations for true nor affirm them all false enough I conceive it is for us in this particular to say The best is the Triple Crown it self is able to match them and over-match them too chuse what vice what sin you please for it hath afforded conjurating Popes who have made private Contracts with the Devil Alexander the sixth Paul the third Sylvester the second Benedict the ninth John the thirteenth Gregory the seventh for it hath afforded an idolatrous Pope as Macellinus for it hath afforded incestuous Popes as Paul the third Alexander the sixth and John the thirteenth for it hath afforded bloudy and truculent Popes as Boniface the seventh Paschal the second Vrban the sixth And lastly it hath afforded Whore-masters an innumerable Crue so that Bellarmine himself is so hard put to it to salve the matter of the dissolutenesse of Popes as he hath nothing else to say but Quot numerari possunt qui rectissime credunt tamen perditissime vivunt How many may be reckoned up who are of sound belief yet of wretched lives His Lordship having as he conceives given sufficient caveat what it is to rely upon such mens judgements as Luther Calvin Beza c. Next takes notice of an Objection his Majesty made That the Church of Rome hath fallen from her first Love and old Principles and undertakes to prove an Identity and samenesse of Doctrine in the now Church of Rome and in the Primitive Church during Saint Augustine's time for which Father's worth he produceth the great esteem he hath amongst Protestants themselves and indeed he deserves all the good can be said of him being of all the Fathers the chiefest Florist fullest of Elegancy and therefore most delightfull and also the most judicious and solid and therefore most edifying but yet for all that Saint Augustine himself had his Reâ—â—ctations and he calls it himself a necessary work In this Parallel and comparing both Churches together the Marques spends many pages which I shall answer in as few lines And first I might demand were his Lordship living as David did of the Widow of Tekoah Is not the hand of Joab or Cardinal Peron with thee in all this Could he or durst he deny it Undoubtedly no there being no other difference than between French and English and the Reply of a Cardinal to the Father of a Marques to the Son But as the Cardinal saved the Marques a great deal of labor in penning his eighteenth Chapter of his Reply to King James so a very reverend and learned Bishop hath saved me as much in already answering that eighteenth Chapter of the Cardinal's Reply and he hath done it so full so home that never as yet durst any Jesuit or other of the Romish perswasion take him to task for it to that excellent Piece I shall transmit the Reader with this onely cautionary hint that what the Bishop page 7. citeth out of Saint Augustine de Civit. Dei l. 17. c. 20. is no where to be found in that Tome or Tract but is in his sixth Tome contra Faust Manich. l. 20. c. 21. and instead of Post Adventum in the Bishops reade Post Ascensum for so it is and so it must be I wonder much that his own Manuscript he being so diligently precise should have it so and that the Error should escape also those judicious and exact Supervisors who published those posthume Works After all these borrowed or rather stollen Comparisons the Marques makes no doubt but his Majesties judgement will tell him that the Church of Rome hath not changed her countenance nor the Papists fled from their Colours but that they do antiquum obtinere True indeed the Romish Catholiques do still antiquum obtinere keep their old wont the old wont of the ancient Hereticks and what that was Tertullian can inform us Adjectionibus by foisting in as This is my body which is given for you not to you detractionibus by lopping and laming as leaving out Do this in remembrance of me Scripturas ad dispositionem instituti intervertere wresting the Scriptures to serve their own turns This is all the Antiquity his Majesties judgement could tell him of in the Romish Church where differing from ours Nor is it enough his Lordship proves as he would perswade us the Romish Antiquity but he will also shew the Protestants theirs in the condemned heresies of the ancient Church as for Example the Protestants hold that the Church may err this they had from the Donatists But I would gladly know from whence the Marques had his Information concerning this opinion of the Donatists he quoteth Augustine for it I confesse and with a passion as if every where you might finde it in him where he undertaketh Donatus but sure it is his Lordships every where will come to no where for the opinion of Donatus was clearly this that all Churches but his own were erroneous his own onely infallible and out of which hold he did that none could be saved which I conceive is the very Tenet of the Romish Catholiques and so the Donatists and they are nearest ally'd Protestants deny unwritten Tradit ions this they had from the Arrians I deny that Deny Traditions we hold and grant in Ceremonies and matters not fundamental and we oppose to the Romish party their own comparison of Traditions to a nuncupative will which cannot by the Rule of our Law convey a free-hold and Estate in Fee So it is with Traditions in Divinity they cannot constitute any Articles of Faith or impose any thing of the necessity of salvation for which recourse must be had to the written Word and to that only Though Arrius is branded for an Heretick yet neither Augustine nor Epiphanius so far as I am able to understand them have discovered any such Heresie in him as a Recusant to unwritten Traditions Protestants teach that Priests may marry this they had from Vigilantius This is Heresie now adays but ab initio non fuit sic 't was not so in Saint Paul's opinion who appointed a Bishop should be the Husband of one Wife 't was not so in Tertullian's
the avoidance of one for a man may err in retractation of what he hath said as Bellarmine hath done more than once as well as in saying what he retracts but in one place there must of necessity be an Error light that Error where it may that Church which so erreth I shall be loath to trust with matters of Faith The last Rub in his Lordships way is so inconsiderable as I shall stride over it and accompany him to his Church M. First we hold the Real Presence you deny it we say his Body is there you say there is nothing but Bread Before I come to direct Answer I shall briefly and I hope not impertinently premise First it is fit those Opposite Terms of We and You being so considerable should be further explain'd What is meant by We is little question'd the M. certainly intends the Romish Church what by You he does not clearly resolve us till p. 159. and there he tells us in capital letters 't is The Church of England and indeed writing English to an English King not Head but a Member though the noblest of the English Church it cannot in reason be supposed he should under that word You point at any other than the Church of England So then the Church of England is his Lordships Youâ— and being so it is in my opinion a great blemish to his Honours Cause to charge and accriminate a Church with no less than Heresie and not with one onely but many very many and not produce any one Book or one Article where those Heresies are to be found but to accuse a Church of Heresies which are no where to be found and this he hath done very often is a blemish to his Honour as well as to his Cause What the Marques hath omitted in setting down the Doctrine of our Church shall be by me supplied and I will do it with that ingenuous integrity that I will not suppress any one syllable which may advantage her Adversaries in the least And first to the point of Christ's presence Thus The Body of Christ is given taken and eaten in the Supper onely after an heavenly and spiritual manner Observe here 's the Body of Christ so something more than bare bread then it is given taken and eaten if so 't is there sure and verily and indeed as the Catechisme hath it and the Church of Ireland substantially wee 'll grant that too so that it had been much more for his Lordships credit to have forborn the urging of this Real Presence against us Non opus erat ut ea contra nos diceret quae dicimus secum why should he urge that against us which we assert with him Well but is there no difference between us Yes a very great one Rome holds a Transubstantiation a Conversion of the whole substance of the Elements in the Sacrament into the very body and bloud of Christ as the Councel of Trent hath it why did the Marques suppress this Tenet Durst he not own it He is then no Papist for what that Councel hath determined the Papists do and must hold On the other side our Church saith Christs body is there given taken and eaten onely after an heavenly and spiritual manner Now you have heard what both sides hold wee 'll give the Marques his Scriptures leave to speak next Matth. 20. 26. Take eat this is my body Luke 22. 19. This is my body which is given for you I can see Christ's body here indeed but where 's the Conversion the Transubstantiation the Papists hold I cannot see that and though I can see Christ's body there yet there is something else which should be there I cannot see and that is Do this in remembrance of me which we conceive is an evident Explanation of the Mystery this his Lordship thought too hot for him so that if we stand to his carving we shall be sure to have that we have least minde to Now let his Fathers be produced Ignatius saith The Eucharist is the flesh of Christ so say we too and Ignatius tells you for all that it is Bread still and after Consecration too both are indeed most sure as Saint Hillary saith exceeding well Figura est dum Panis Vinum extra videtur veritas autem dum corpus sanguis Christi in veritate interius creditur It is the figure whilest the Bread and Wine are beheld outwardly but the truth it self when the Body and Bloud are inwardly in truth beleeved Justin Martyr saith That after Consecration the Elements become the body and bloud of Christ who doubts of it but speaks not of any Conversion of the substance nay saith expresly in the same place that the Deacons distribute after consecration the bread and wine clearly implying he thought not of any Transubstantiation but that the Elements kept their substance still Cyprian and Ambrose I confess spake the first of a Change the other of a Conversion of the Elements but 't is not of their substance neither but onely of their use Sunt quae erant in aliud commutantur They are still what they were before but are changed in quality Such a Conversion we grant too we hold the Elements after Consecration differ in use and virtue from common Bread and Wine Rhemigius speaks not of Conversion if Christ's body be there sure his flesh is and I never read of any other flesh he had than what he took in the Virgins womb The difference is not whether Christ's body be here but how And if I did not think it time mis-spent I could destroy this carnal Doctrine by the testimony of twenty several Fathers who all understand the Presence to be no other than as a Symbole Type figure representation signe image likeness and memory of Christ's body crucified upon the Cross and as for Transubstantiation they never dreamt of such a word nor thought of such a thing I will onely instance in one and I hope his word may be taken because a Pope Non desinit substantia vel natura Panis Vini The substance of Bread and Wine is not changed or destroyed So Gelasius M. We hold that there is in the Church an infallible Rule for understanding of Scripture besides the Scripture it self this you deny Our Church hath no where delivered her self expresly in this point yet I take it to be the General Doctrine of Protestants that there is no other Rule besides Scripture to understand Scripture that is infallible For if Scripture be an infallible Rule why should we cumber our selves with more than one unless this one were hard to come by or easie to be lost And it seems his Lordship thought Scripture was one infallible Rule when he said there is another besides it and Bellarmine comes in with his Convenit inter nos omnes omnino haereticos In this point we are all generally agreed Heretiques and all that the Word of God
did by consequence though not expresly to the Cardinal Bembus saying concerning the treasure of indulgences in a mockery what a mighty revenue make we of the fable of Christ Make a fable of Christ and what becomes of either Testament What if he or Calvin erred concerning the Trinity did not Liberius as I shewed before subscribe to the Arrian Heresy What if Calvin held with Nestorius two Persons in Christ did not Pope Honorius hold but one will in him an heresy full as grosse and for which he was condemned by the 6 General Councel of Constantinople What need we run into exact paralleels with them it is enough we can produce a Caelestine the 3. teaching that heresy is a sufficient cause of Divorce in Matrimony A John 22. who taught that the Souls of the just did not see God before the Resurrection Another John 23. that denied the Resurrection of the body And how I pray do the great Clerks of the Romish Interest come off here very poorly most certain even just as S. Augustine said quasi hoc sit respondere posse quod est tacere non posse as if to answer and not to say nothing were all one For if the evidence be given in so full against their Popes that find them guilty they must and all other shifts fail then such a Pope did not define e Cathedra fitting in his in-erring-chair but ut Doctor peculiaris exposuit obiter opinionem suam onely delivered his opinion as a private Doctor which is a plain confession that this rare knack of Infallibility is not by his Holinesse carried alwayes about him Again sometimes 't is no heresie what such a Pope thought because nulla adhuc praecesserat Ecclesiae Definitio the Church never desired any thing in the Point so that be the opinion never so grosse and absurd never so destructive to the many principles of Faith never so repugnant to the expresse Text of sacred Scripture yet heresie it is not with them till the Church define it Lastly some have held erroneous oppinions but upon their death-beds have been of another minde and would have defin'd the Truth but see the ill luck of it the good men have been prevented by death this is Bellarmines excuse for John 22. And yet the Cardinal's relation out of Villarius of this John's retractation represents his holinesse in no Definitive posture and as far from the thought that he was as Pope Summus judex controversiarum in Ecclesia Supreme Judg of controversies in the Church which is the main Subject of the Jesuites fourth book de Romano Pontifice For first the Pope saith Existimare se jam probabiliorem esse sententiam eam He is now of the minde that it is the more probable mark that he goes no further than probability in his Retractation and Palinody and probability is no good foundation for a Decernimus for a definition opinion that the Souls of the Saints enjoy the beatifical vision before the day of judgement And that he did now adhere to that opinion unlesse the Church mark that too to whose definition he would subject most willingly his own judgement should otherwise determine sure the Pope was brought as low in minde as body who did thus pusillanimously submittere fasces and vail to the judgement of the Church or else was certainly perswaded that whatever their Parasites give out Popes in truth differ little from meaner persons in the point of deciding Theological questions The M. his next remove is from the Protestants Doctrine to their divisions in Doctrine denied it cannot it must not be But divisions there are this sad bleeding Church of England is a most lamentable a most deplorable demonstration of it And what if there be divisions amongst us are they alwayes the marks of the false Church and unity the note of the True His Lordship will scarce be able to prove that Tertullian did I am certain think otherwise Schismata apud haereticos fere non sunt Hereticks saith he seldom differ they agree too well But why should his Lordship urge our differences so against us Are the Protestants only guilty of these dissentions Did not Paul and Barnabas grow into such a paroxisme and cholerique fit as they parted upon it Acts 15. 39. Did not Paul and Peter strive about a thing indifferent Gal. 2. 11. Were not Polycrates Bishop of Ephesus and Pope Victor at defiance Did not Chrysostome and Epipharius proclaim {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} implacable War each against nother And is the Church of Rome so unison so all of a piece as to afford no jarres The happier she sure and happier now than of old when she had as good as prudent Governours as now and I think a little better And though St. Paul had charge of her as a Gentile Church yet could he not look so narrowly into her but some there were who caused dissentions in her contrary to the Doctrine he had delivered But if such harmony there be at Rome how cometh it then to passe that in that great Article of the Romish-Catholique Faith about the Popes-Infallibility Bellarmine himself undertaketh Durandus and Adrian for accriminating Gregory the First of errour How cometh it then to passe that he taketh Panormitan and Gerson to task for saying that a private man furnished with better Authority of Scripture is to be preferred for his opinion before the Pope How cometh it then to passe that he censureth Nilus Gerson Almain Alphonsus de Castro and Pope Adrian the sixth for teaching that a Pope may be an heritique And to be short how cometh it then to passe that in his vast volume of controversies there is very rarely any one wherein the Cardinal hath not to do with some one or other of his own party as dissenting from his own Thesis and Position so that a grave Author hath cull'd out no lesse then 303 oppositions amongst the Marquis his un-jarring Catholiques And he that knoweth nothing of the quarrel between the Jesuits and Seminary Priests may see enough in Watson the Seminary who is so liberal a libeller so full of gall and bitternesse as me thinks I hear the Jesuit expostulating with him as Absalon did with Hushai Is this thy kindnesse to thy Friend Nor are they onely the smaller Bells in the Romish Church that ring thus awake the great ones the Popes themselves interfere witnesse the difference about the Translation of the Bible between Sixtus the fifth and Clement the eighth and that so great an one as all the Wits of Rome will never be able to make them Friends again So that if his Lordship takes these to be no jarrs his ear is not I think very musical And because the Marques voucheth for the Catholiques no jarrs Sir Edwin Sands True it is he saith the Catholiques have a readier way to reconcile their Enmities and to decide their Differences having
it is the body of Christ is there what need we dispute whether the Bread remaineth in Substance or not The Glosse of the Canon Law The Bread is called Christs body improperly meaning that it signifieth Christs body Against the Infallibility of the Church that is as the Marques confest to his Majesty p. 79. of the Church of Rome that is as Valentia saith the Bishop of Rome Alphonsus de Castro Every man may err in Faith yea though he be the Pope himself Gerson The Pope as well as an inferiour Bishop is obnoxious to erre in Faith Catharinus Nothing hindereth but the Pope may err in Faith though some Novellists are so impudent to hold the contrary against the common sence of all antiquity Adrian the sixth a Pope himself affirmeth it for certain That a Pope may erre in asserting heresy by his Decree and that many Popes have been heretiques Bannes It was the general opinion of all the ancient both Popes and School-men till Pighius and since him of the more sober Doctors as Cajetan Turrecremata Victoria Soto Canus and others that the Pope of Rome may become an heretique Against Merits and Supererogation Waldensis He is the best Catholique who confesseth that simply no man meriteth the Kingdom of heaven but obtaineth it of Gods free grave Ferus If thou desirest to keep in Gods favour make no mention of thine own Merits Durandus If God give any reward to our good deeds it is not because he is a debter to our works but out of his own bounty Ariminensis No work performed by man is condignely meritorious of eternal life no nor of any temporal reward Pighius We are made righteous not by our own righteousnesse but by the righteousnesse of God in Christ This is that Pighius who Bellarmine saith was miserably seduced by reading Calvins works But who was it seduced the Cardinal himself to pray that God would admit of him amongst the Elect not a priser of his Merit but a dispenser of pardon and forgivenesse Against Invocation of Saints Halensis our Country-man God alone is simply to be prayed to the Saints are rather assistants in the behalf of those who pray then fit to be prayed to Bannes That Saints are to be prayed to and images to be worshipped is neither expresly nor by implication taught in Scripture Suarez That in the Old Testament any one did directly pray to the Saints departed either to help them or pray for them we no where read Salmeron Invocation of Saints is not mentioned in the New Testament and it may administer occasion to the Gentiles of worshipping many Gods Durandus Adoration must be bestowed onely upon God not upon the Angels lest we fall into the sin of Idolatry Against Communion halfed Halensis whole Christ is not conteined in either kind Sacramentally but his flesh under the species of bread and his bloud under the species of wine Lorichius 'T is heresy and execrable blasphemy of Bastard-Catholiques who say that Christ spake onely to the Apostles saying Drink ye all of this when both these words Eat and Drink were spoken to the whole Church Valentia Communion under one kind began to be generally received a little before the Councel of constance Pope Gelasius We find that one part of the Sacrament cannot be received without the other without committing great Sacriledge Against the Sacrifice of the Masse The Master of the sentences It is demanded if what the Priest consecrateth be properly a Sacrifice to this it may be briefly replied that what is offered by the Priest is called a Sacrifice because it is a Memorial and representation of the ture Sacrifice made once upon the Crosse Against the seven Sacraments Cardinal Bessarion Baptisme and the Lords Supper are the onely Sacrament delivered evidently in the Gospels Thomas Aquinas The form of Baptisme and the Eucharist are extant in the Scriptures but not the form of other Sacraments Matrimony is not to speak properly a Sacrament Durandus There want not some Catholiques who grant that Matrimony is no Sacrament of the new Law Bellarmine Penance is divided amongst the Papists into Confession absolution and satisfaction But Confession is denied to be any part of this Sacrament by Scotus Major Gabriel and absolution is denied by Dominicus a Soto and Bellarmine himself saith that inward contrition is sufficient to save us without either absolution or Confession The Sacrament of confirmation as it is a Sacrament was neither instituted by Christ nor his Apostles Halensis The Apostles delivered neither the matter nor form of this Sacrament but onely confirm'd some without the Ministery of a Sacrament Bonaventute Of the form of this Sacrament we read nothing in Scripture if we resort to tradition we shall find a great deal of variety amongst the Fathers Sudres There are but two places urged from Scripture for extream unction Marc. 6. vers. 13. is the first where it is said that the Apostles anointed with oyl many that were sick and healed them But Bellarmine denieth that unction to be Sacramental because saith he the Apostles were not yet made Priests The other is James 5. 14. cited by the Marques and Cajetan saith neither from the words nor from the effect can it be gathered that the Apostle speaks thereof the Sacramental union Against Purgatory Roffensis Purgatory cannot be proved by Scripture and amongst the antients there is none at all or very rawly any mention of Purgatory and the Greek Church denieth it to this day Otho Fris That there is any such place of Purgatory in hell wherein they who are to be saved must be purified by an expiatory fire some but not all assert By this time I hope I have made good my promise for I think the Romish Catholiques nor can nor will deny but all these are their own Doctors and all this our Doctrine Finally If neither prescription of 1600 years possession and continuance of our Churches Doctrine nor our evidence out of the Word of God nor the Fathers witnessing to that evidence nor the decrees of Councels nor your own acknowledgements be sufficient to mollify and turn your Royal heart there is no more means left for truth or me but I must leave it to God in whose hand are the hearts of Kings This Finally contradicts his Lordships late lastly and it is a formidable a terrible conclusion a conclusion able to make the stoutest Protestant reel did we not know that these are but words of course and meer set forms of Ostentation what is indeed more feasable then to be foyl'd when he who is our enemy {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} is become all he can desire accuser witnesse Judge But shall his Lordship carry away this conclusion {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}
without controul No sure admit they could prescribe for 1600 years must prescription prescribe and out Truth But can they prescribe for 1600 years in any one point where in they differ from us Can they in many for 1000 can they in some for 600 their grand Novelty of Transubstantiation will tell them no and it is well known the slender possession their errours have had hath not been so quiet so peaceable so undisturbed but that Truth hath made her constant and continual claim As for their evidence out of the word of God out of the word of God it is I confesse but it would do much better in it And in it they have so little as their greatest Clerks acknowledge that prayer to the Saints worshipping of their Images celebrating their festivals the not iterating of the Sacraments of Orders and confirmation are taught in Scripture neither expresly nor by implication So Bannes from whom Canus differeth onely in superadding the Sacrifice of the Eucharist As for the Fathers and Councels witnessing to that evidence such as the Scripture evidence is for the Papists such is their witnessing to that evidence just so and no more which more explicitely is just none at all For I challange them to produce any one Father of the first 500 years who held and maintained any one point of Doctrine as the Councel of Trent now holds where differing from us of Doctrine I say for in ceremonies they may I grant find many presidents in antiquity conformable to theirs As for our own acknowledgements sure his Lordship did not in good earnest and seriously think we Reputed and own'd Luther the Hussites the Waldenses for Ours no we always constantly urge them as Romish Catholiques though in some particulars they oppugned her Doctrine Thus his Lordships specious and flashy conclusion is reduced to a meer nothing And his Majesty was at this brunt in no great danger of becoming the Marques his convert Certain Considerations upon Dr BAYLY'S Interlocution concerning the True Church its being Judge of Scripture THe Doctor's Invective against Sacriledge shall create him no trouble from me I desire not to meddle with Impertinencies Since your Majesty was pleased to discharge the Watch which I had set before the Door of my Lips The Watch before the Door of your Lips was it seems of your own setting and because so 't is like his Majesty thought fit to discharge it not desiring to leave them without a Guard but hoping they might be relieved with that which the Prophet David call'd to God for Psalm 141. v. 3. I shall make bold to put your Majesty in minde of holding my Lord to the Demand which your Majesty once made unto his Lordship concerning the true Church for if once that Question were throughly determined all Controversies not onely between your Majesty and his Lordship but also all Controversies that ever were would soon be decided at a short race end And is there no way no means to end Controversies but by that which this fifteen hundred years and upward hath been disputed what it is and where to finde it Did God provide so ill for us as to leave us in suspense concerning the main points of Faith untill that Church which is yet in the clouds shall define what is the true sense of that Scripture which must guide us to eternal happinesse And if after 15 hundred years debate this Church were but in view some comfort it were to us but clear it is and a miserable case she is as far off for ought we know as ever for we are not agreed upon those marks and tokens by which she must be known Our Church the Church of England holds the purity of Doctrine preached agreeable to God's Word and Sacraments administred according to Christ's Ordinance to be the notes of it The papists hold they know not how many Bellarmine reckons fifteen but at last reduceth them to four according to the most usual and received Opinion amongst them Unity Holinesse Universality Succession as they are in the Nicene Creed but yet he comes reeling off too giving them no more than an Evidence of Credibility so that if a man will believe them he may and may not if he will and if we were agreed upon the true marks yet should we not be agreed upon the true Church for suppose the four mentioned before and urged by the Church of Rome be they yet we say they are more visible in our Church than in that of Rome There are not amongst us three hundred and three differences in points of Religion as hath been demonstrated in the Church of Rome and therefore ours the greater Unity For Holinesse that is a grace keeps home and stirs little abroad yet if we may judge of it by its fruits the papists cannot shew us more wicked members of our Church than we can them Heads of theirs so the thing Holinesse is ours let the Title be theirs For Universality Rome wherein she differeth from us cannot prove her Assertions from the testimony of the primitive Church in some points for a thousand years not in any for five hundred after Christ so we are the more Catholique Lastly for Succession of Doctrine which is the best Succession we derive ours from all the Apostles Rome onely from Peter derives onely a Succession of Chairs and yet it is not infallibly certain that ever Peter was at Rome much lesse Bishop there and therefore our Succession the best too so that as the case now stands between us we are not like to agree in haste Doctor I wish you could set us through and truly I must needs say in my opinion you have made a fair offer at deciding this Controversie when you said The true Church must be a Society of Men though I can go no further with you for that That Society of Men are to be supreme Judge of Scripture and Controversies Theological will not down with me nor I believe with many more For let that Society of Men be a General Councel which is a supposition of as much advantage to you as you can desire because it represents the Catholique Church and it is but a supposition too for though there have been before the Empire was split General Councels in former times yet as the case stands now it seemeth to wise men an incredible thing that ever such a Councel shall be again and Religion would be in a most sad condition were all controversies to stay for decision till then Besides Doctor it hath befallen some General Councels that there hath been shamefull packing and fore-stalling of Suffrages and Voices before they met and when met many have been frighted and minaced to vote clean contrary to their own sense and such Councels are but ill to be trusted with Questions of Faith in my poor opinion But suppose your Councel met and assembled and with all the fairest carriage and freedom you can desire they are but
all-sufficiency of Scripture after which the Doctor rejoyns All that your Majesty hath said concerning the scriptures sufficiency is true provided that those Scriptures be duly handled for as the Law is sufficient to determine right and keep all in peace and quietnesse yet the execution of that sufficienciency cannot be performed without Courts and Judges The Doctor holds his own Comparison still Well Doctor we have a Court too Forum conscientiae the Court of every mans conscience and a Judge also of that Court if you demand Who 'T is every mans self and therefore they who controul that Court are by the voice of truth it self {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} condemned of themselves For as Hierome tells us who was no great Friend to Popes or Bishops If there be not admitted in the Church the Authority of one eminent and peerlesse Power above others there will be as many Schismes in the Church as Priests Doctor you are out let me put you in the Questions we speak of are of Heresie not of Schisme that relates to dogmatical points of Faith this to outward Rites Ceremonies are the Garments of Religion not the Body and Cloath are for Ornament yet not for that only they are also to keep the Body warm a Religion naked without Ceremonies will have but little outward warmth but a frozen zeal if I may so say and too many Cloaths are as bad and cumbersome on the other side Fit it is the Church should appoint her self what and how many she will wear for leave it at liberty there will indeed be Schismes as many as Hierome speaks of Wherefore I would fain finde out that which the Scripture bids me hear Audi Ecclesiam c. The Doctor is again at his Hear the Church Matth. 18. and I again must tell him that place is onely applyable to Ecclesiastical discipline But that the Church may the better be heard the Doctor tells us from Saint Paul that she is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth from Ezekiel that God will place his sanctification in the midst of her for ever from Esay that the Lord will never forsake her from our Saviour that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against her and that he will be always with her unto the end of the world All this we grant and yet deny all that the Doctor would from these Texts infer for first it is evident not any one of all these is to be understood or hath any reference to a Representative Church or General Councel but to the Universal Catholique Church Secondly if a General Councel were intended by them yet there is not any grant of an infallible spirit to direct that Councel and without the spirit of infallibility men will be and no more than need very cautelous of yielding plenary obedience to her Decrees Doct. For although the Psalmist tells us that the word of the Lord is clear enlightening the eyes yet the same Prophet said to God enlighten mine eyes that I may see the marvels of thy Law c. The Doctor labours here to prove the obscurity of the Scriptures and that they are so in some places I never heard and man yet deny but that they are so in all the Doct. himself dares not cannot deny The truth is as Augustine said Excellently The holy Ghost hath so modified and tempered the Scriptures that there are clear places to satisfie the hunger and darker to procure the appetite of the Soul and if {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} whatsoever is necessary for us to believe is there clear and manifest we are well enough But the Doct. saith no man hath ever yet defin'd what are necessary and what not what points are fundamental and what not Hath no man defin'd what is necessary what is fundamental Yes Doctor Learned Hooker tells you it is the Doctrine which the Prophets and Apostles professe the late Reverend Arch-Bishop tells you the Articles of the Creed which is but the summary of that Doctrine are such and so is the belief of the Scriptures to be the word of God and infallible Necessary to salvation is one thing and necessary to knowledge as an improvement of our Faith is another thing True Doctor there are different things but quid refert what matter is it what is necessary to that knowledge which is not necessary to salvation T is a learned ignorance not to know that which our great Master will not teach us T is fides tua said Tertullian thy Faith not the curiosity of being skilfull in the Scriptures hath saved thee cedat curiositas Fidei cedat gloria saluti Let curiosity give place to Faith vanity and ostentation to Salvation For the first if a man keeps the Commandments and believes all the Articles of the Creed he may be saved though he never read a word of Scripture May he be saved Doctor I hope it is more then possible then may be he shall undoubtedly be saved and so he shall if he believes all the Scripture though he never read a word of it But why Doctor do you distinguish between the Articles of the Creed and the Scriptures are not those Articles the word of God as well as the Scripture I take it they are First as framed by the Apostles themselves men Divinely inspired as all the Fathers agree Secondly because they containe the pith and marrow of the Scriptures all the Doctrine necessary to salvation being there abbreviated He who means to walk by the rules of Gods word must lay hold upon the means that God hath ordained whereby he may attain to the true understanding of them for as St. Paul saith God hath placed in the Church Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Doctors to the end we should be no more little children blown about with every wind of Doctrine Were I disposed to quarrel I could tell you Doctor Bayly or Doctor Stapleton chuse you which that your Text is out of date and that the Prophets and Evangelists there mentioned were extraordinary and proper onely to those times and the Presbyterian party will tell you as much of the Apostles so that there will be onely left Pastors and Doctors which with St. Augustine I conceive to be both one of perpetual use in the Church for the work of the Ministery part of which work I freely grant is the interpretation of the Scriptures Again I might expostulate as the Apostle doth 1. Cor. 12. 30. do all interpret have all Pastors that gift And admit they have have they all that assistance of the Holy Ghost in an infallible guidance which those Pastors of the Apostolical times had Nay is that infallible assistance now afforded to any one of all the Pastors in the world If yea let us know the man so qualified if not then what remedy but we may be still blown about with every puff of Doctrine and what will then become of your external Judge