19 Prayers in an vnknowne tongue profit not the people as Duraeus thinks they do ibid. nota 20 Nazianzene alloweth and praiseth ciuill societie no lesse then Monkish life ibid. 21 Ambrose condemnes all prayers to Saints and their intercession Page 163 22 Duraeus vaine distinction of Intercessors and Suffragators ibid. nota 23 Hierome makes a Bishop and a Priest of equall authoritie bâ— the laâ— of God ibid. 24 Pope Gelasius condemneth as sacrilegious the tâ—king away of the cup from the people and commaundeth that either both the elements be giuen to them or neither Page 164 25 Duraeus maketh the Manechies the first authors of dismembring the supper ibid. nota 26 Vigilius denies the presence of Christ in the Church in both natures ibid. 27 Chrysostome exhorteth all men to reade the scriptures ibid. 28 Augustine is wholly on the Protestants side Page 165 29 By Gregories iudgement he that calleth himselfe Vniuersall Bishop is a fore-runner of Antichrist Page 161 30 Iohn Bishop of Constantinople first challenged the title of Vniuersall Bishop ibid. 31 What is meant by vniuersall Bishop by Gregories iudgement which toucheth the Pope home ibid. nota 32 Boniface the 3. tooke the name of vniuersall Bishop and deriued it to his successors Page 166. nota The summe of the seuenth Answere touching histories 1 Campian only numbering vp the Historiographers foolishly concludeth all are on their side page 169 2 Protestants refuse not to examine their doctrine by histories so they be not tied to the apparent blemishes in theÌ„ Page 170 3 Historiographers are tainted with the corruptions of their times and the later they are the more corrupt for the most part they are found to be Page 161 4 The church of Rome is maruelously corrupted though we could not tell when it begun to be so and yet see the beginning of some particulars as of vsurped authority ouer Churches of deniall of Priests mariages of worshipping Images of carnall eating in the Sacrament of Transubstantiation of Purgatory of the Pope aboue Councels Page 177. nota 5 The corruption of it greâ— not all at once no more then of Ierusalem but by little and little as in the Greeke church also Page 172 6 The heads of the heretikes who rose vp in the Greeke church so of those who rose vp in the Latine church ibid. nota 7 The Church all the Apostles time was a pure virgin after their departure became corrupt Page 173. 174 8 The promises of the Churches perpetuall preseruation from corruption did and do belong to the Church of the elect not to particular Churches ibid. nota 9 In the Councell of Africk where there were present Page 217. Bishops and Augustine himselfe the Bishop of Rome affected to haue all appeales made to him but the Councell denied it vnto him Page 175 10 The Legates of the Pope forge a Canon of the Councell of Nice to perswade this Councell which forgerie is found out by search ibid. 11 Augustine and the Bishops of Africke censured for schismatikes by Boniface for resisting the Bishop of Rome who affirmeth that they were moued vnto it by the Diuell Page 176 12 Eulalius the first Bishop of Carthage who admitted the Popes power ouer the Churches of Afrike ibid. 13 Then became the Church of Rome plainely Antichristian when Phocas the murtherer granted to her to be the head of Churches and Boniface the 3. to be vniuersall Bishop ibid. 14 Gregorie the great was the last good and the first bad Bishop of the church of Rome Page 177 15 Bernard and Aeneas Siluius who was afterward caâ—â—d Pope Pius maruellously inueâ—ed againsâ— the corruptions of the church of Rome ibid. 16 Bernard cryeth out of the pomp of Eugenius the Pâ—â—e and the impietie of his court ibid. nota 17 All sinnes in Rome might both be practised and reprehended Page 1â—8 18 The censure of Cornelius which he gaue of the church of Rome in the Councell of Trent ibid. 19 The Argument is weake the church of Rome was once holy therefore it is so still ibid. 20 Rome though it be Babylon yet not that which S. Peter spoke of 1. Pet. 5.13 Neither haue they yet prooued that Peter was at Rome Page 179 21 If histories do mention any such thing yet it is with such varietie that there is no certaintie of it in the scriptures there is not one tittle of it nay by necessary collection they disclaime it when as this then is the whole ground of the hierarchie of the Papacie it is a ground without any foundation of the scripture ibid. nota 22 Caluine confesseth the church of Rome in the time of Syricius and other Bishops to haue bene the Church of Chriâ—t but denies not but it had erred Page 181 23 Errors ouerthrow not a Church for being a true Church ibid. 24 Syricius the first who inforced single life vpon the Ministers ibid. nota and Page 182 25 Syricius and Innocent did condemne marriage as euill Page 182. nota 26 The Church of Rome is but a Church in shew and pomp else it hath nothing in it of a true Church Page 183. nota 27 Pelagius and Papists agree both about grace inbred in mans nature ibid. The summe of the eight Answere touching the Paradoxes of the Aduersaries 1 Caluin nor any Protestant maketh God the author of sin pag. 193. nota and Page 194. nota 2 God hath a finger in the action which is euill not in the corruption of it which is wholy from man but in the motion and action which is in it selse good Page 195 3 If wee say God permitteth sinne vnwillingly wee ouerthrow his prouidence and omnipotencie he willeth yet alloweth not that which is euill Page 196 4 Men are guiltie of sinne in the things they doe which are euill and yet God holy though he willeth them Augustine and Hugo de Sancto Victore doe so thinke Page 197. and Page 198 5 The Lord worketh both in him that sinneth and in him that worketh well but after a diuers manner Page 199 6 Christ is the Sonne of the essence of the Father not by decision or propagation but by communication But he is God of himselfe Page 201. and nota 7 The essence is not begotten but the person of the person Page 202. and Page 203 8 Beza corrected his error of two personall vnions in Christ. ibid. 9 The 10. of Iohn vers 30. expounded and defended that it proueth not the vnitie of essence in Christ his Father Page 204 10 Not Luther only but many of the Fathers disliked and repented the bringing in of the word Homousion yet they held the thing Page 205 11 Christ was not at the first perfect in wisedome but mcreased as in bodie so in his minde and wisedome Page 206 12 Christ was ignorant of many things but without sinne Page 208 13 Christ was ignorant of the last day as man and not onely because hee would not or did not reueale it to others Page 208. nota
impossibilities that al men may perceiue they were ascribed to vs by you most falsly and most impudently I do craue not only of all men of our Vniuersities but also of all ChristiaÌ„s that haue care of true religion and of their owne saluation that they will not suffer themselues to be misled by any lies and impostures of the aduersarie from that holy doctrine which they haue learned Wherefore I will set vpon these your monsters Campian that after I haue stopt your mouth being ful of blasphemy both the glory of God which is in hand and our innocency which is oppugned may be preserued from your violence You say the disputation shall be if they please of God of Christ of Man of Sinne of Righteousnes of the Sacraments of Manners But we are readie to dispute with you not only about these but also about other points which are now in difference of the Scripture of the Church of the Bishop of Rome of Transubstantiation of Freewill of Indulgences of Purgatorie and of the rest of your doctrines Neuerthelesse either many are deceiued or else you do rather thinke of fighting then disputing And I hope that you shall once haue freedome granted you for that disputation which you so often desire But now let vs attend how you endeuour to make vs know these positions of our men God say you is the willing Of God suggesting efficient commaunding and working author and cause of sinne and such a one as therein gouerneth the impious counsels of the wicked It is an horrible thing and not to be vttred Campian that any one should make God the author of sinne such an one were worthy to be smitten instantly by the Lord with a thunderbolt into the deepest pit of hell If a DVR But if I do not shew that Caluin is the maintainer of this so horrible ablasphemy I refuse no punishment for so great a slaÌ„der thus he writeth Instit lib. 1. cap. 18. sect 1. Absolom defiling his fathers bed with incest committed a detestable crime yet God pronounceth that this was his worke WHIT pag. 525. I wonder that there is any maÌ„ found like to Campian who will â—uow that to be said and defended by our men which they haue euer most plainly condemned as Melanct. on Rom. 1. c. Pet. Mart on Iudg 9. and Caluin on Iam. 1. vers 13. Beza against Castellio of eternall predestination for touching these words which you obiect to Caluin what doth he affirme but that which the Scripture hath deliuered 2. Sam 12.11.12 vnlesse perhapâ— you will deny that to be Gods deed which God himselfe witnesseth to be his Neither will your sophisme follow hereupon ergo God is the author of sin for Caluin ascribeth not the sinne but the worke to God For if in that incest you can consider nothing but sinne it must bee imputed to your ignorance Caluin or Martyr or Philip or Luther or any of vs do affirme it I do not denie but we are all guilty of horrible blasphemie and impiety If I would largely prosecute this whole cause which you doe but touch I should make no end therfore I will declare in few words both what we teach and wherein you lie We professe not only that God is good but also goodnes it self yea good in himself in his owne esseÌ„ce in whom there is no euill from whom nothing but good can come who is so good that all his doings be very good and that not so much as any of his thoughts can be euil These things we speake these things we teach these things we beleeue with our harts and confesse with our mouthes Seeing therefore God is so perfectly good that all his things be in a certaine excellent manner good it hath been in times past inquired and most grauely disputed wheÌ„ce that euil sprung which had spread so far what might be the cause of this euill This question Augustine often handled because of the Mâ—nichies In 12. quest 79. art 1. 2. and therein also Thomas of Aquine imployed himselfe much and diligently Wee say that this euill was brought in by the b DVR But Caluin saith that when the Diuel moueth men to sinne hee is rather the instrument of God than thâ— author oâ— sinne Instit lib. 2. cap. 4. Ser. 5. WHIT pag. 528. This allegation is full of slander This is Caluins meaning that albeit the Diuell be rather an instrument than the author of the action yet hee is the supreme and chiefe of the sinne in the action Diuell who although hee were made good in the beginning by the Lord yet by his freewill he made defection from the Lord and sinned â—nd did perswade and was the author vnto man to commit sin from hence whatsoeuer is sin either in the diuels or in men did wholy flow and not any the least peece of it had being from God whom we do maintaine by infinite testimonies of Scripture to be the author of no c DVR But what is more often in the mouth of Caluin all Caluinists â—hen this that God doth not only permit but will sinne that he doth moue and thrust vs forward to sinne nay that be doth by the efficacie of his will impose a necessity of sinning vpon vs WHIT. pag. 529. God willeth sinne but not simplie and so farre forth as it is sinne but as it is a chastisement so 1. Pet. 4.19 and God doth stirre vp and moue that sinne which lieth hidde in vs yet he doth not frame or put sinne into vs as the Physitian is not the author of dâ—seases when he purgeth out the most corrupt humours And man not indued with the holy Ghost falleth of his ovvne accord into a necessity of sinning so as he sinneth not by any fault of God but by his ovvne fault sinne and so do teach it in our schooles and Churches Psal 44. Zach. 8.17 Gen. 18.25 1. Ioh. 1.5 For he hateth sin he loueth righteousnes he which is the Iudge of the whole earth it must needs be that he is euery way most iust God is light and there is no darknes in him And these are the things which wee teach the people concerning God that all may vnderstand hee is a most seuere reuenger of all sinnes Now then Campian with what face dare you seeing you know these to bee our doctrines impute vnto vs such a slaÌ„der not to be vttred in so much as you affirme that we speake and thinke things flat contrary But you say Caluin and Martyr haue taught this this thing Nay rather they are wholy bent vpoÌ„ this that they maintaine that can by no meanes bee It would be long to set down their words I do beseech the Reader to reade with an attentiue and peaceable mind these same very places which Campian hath abused vnto slander And if they doe not both deny most plainly that God is the author and cause of sin and also if they do not proue that they
what may be feared of them namely lest that rather then they should not many they would waâ— waâ—â—on against Christ and breake their first faith which is not their vow but the profession of Christian religion which such light buswiues would easily coâ—â—â—â—â— that they might inioy their pleasures And that this is his meaning the 1â— verse sheweth For certeine are already turned backe after Satan shewing what some had done he admonisheth them to be wary lest others should do the like And as for the Fathers if they did also expound these words as indeed they doe not yet the argument is very weake in diuinity The Fathers haue thus expounded it therefore the exposition is true Luther indeed tooke to wife in holy wedlocke a Virgin that once was intangled by a rash superstitious vow after she had bin more rightly instructed in the truth of religion Exclaime bitterly as you list Call Zuinglius also a swash buckler seeing your self is a player of a Price But tell vs wherein he did euer shew himselfe such a cutter forsooth he boldly ventered his life with his fellow citizens Slerdum lib. 8. Occolam Ephes lib. 4. If Zuinglius at the commaund of the Senate went to warre against the enemies of his couÌ„trie religion where he perished by cruell theeues who lay in waite for him what did he vnbefitting a valiant man a good citizen and a faithfull Pastor to do For whereas you challenge him with conspiracie against his country besides that it is a shamelesse lie I wonder why you should obiect such a crime to him seeing with you it is a thing very commendable for men to conspire against their Prince and country As for Caluin whom you call a seareback runagate the whole Church of Christ knoweth to be an excellent man and a most constant seruant of the Lord who was as farre from lewdnes and dishonastie as you are from shamefastnes and honesty If he was seared S. Paul was so too Gal. 6.17 yea diuers others but indeed he was not And whereas you call him a runagate I pray you tell vs where you haue liued for these diuers yeares and remember what your selfe were Caluin neuer forsooke the Church hee once tooke vpon him to gouerne but there he liued with the speciall loue of all and there he ended his daies but why doe I answere you anything in defence of those excellent and worthy men whom you shal neuer iustly defame though you burst your hart with lying But let vs now heare your communication as you call it And heere you demaund Whether we will subscribe to the Church which flourished these many hundred youres we answere we will subscribe but say you to which Church I answere r DVR He did not demaund whether you would subscribe to that Church which had continued in the precept of the Apostles but vvhether to that Church vvhich hath flourished these many hundred yeares vvhich if you vvould you must needs yeeld as ouercome vvhen none but ours haue flourished thus long WHIT. pag. 285. As if no Church but the Romish Church had flourished these many hundred yeares or for many ages together in the opinion of men it only hâ—â— the name of â—â—e church 〈…〉 will subscribe to all Churches whether they flourished now 〈…〉 they hold the Apostles doctrine but you shall neuer proue 〈◊〉 we must necessarily subscribe to place Sea succession no more then Christ his disciples were bound when there was no true Church flourishing vpon the earth to the Church which is built vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles that is to the Churches of Hierusalem Antioch Ephesus and all those famous and excellent Churches of which wee reade in the Epistles written by the Apostles yea euen to the auncient Church of Rome to which yours is no more like then an apple to an oysteâ— Finally we subscribe to those Churches of whom we reade in histories that they kept the seed of that doctrine which the Apostles taught among them sound vncorrupt These Churches as long as they did continue in the Apostles doctrine were true Churches to those Churches we haue and euer will subscribe And by this I thinke we haue cut off the progresse of your conference for we haue not giuen you such an answere as you fained to your selfe Wherefore that which followeth in you hangeth together like a rope of sand but no answere will please you vnlesse we offer to subscribe to your Romish Church but that we iustly disclaime because it hath fouly corrupted the â—â—â—stles writing You must find you out other subscribers Campian for wee will subscribe to none but the Apostolicall Churches But one thing say you they will still stand vpon in darkenes that where and in what place soeuer the Church is there are conâ—eiued therein only Saints and such as are predestinate to go to heauen We speake not so of the Church as you write for we are taught by the Scriptures thus to distinguish the Church that it is sometimes Å¿ DVR I beleeue only one Catholike Church as the Apostles and Nicene Creed hath taught me which conteineth both the elect and as many as professe true religion Now you teach me to beleeue two Churches WHIT. pag. 286. This distinction taketh not away the vnity of the Church no more then when the Church is said to be mâ—â—â—an and uâ—â—â—phant vniuersall and particular For the visible and â—â—uisible Church make but one called visible for the outward policy or order of it which is seene and discerned inuisâ—ble because Gods election and the electes faith is not to be seene with eies And this distinction we haue Esay 1.9 Matth. 22.14 As for the Creedes you mention we beleeue them in this point aswell as you But tell vs this one Catholike Church what is it If you restraine the name to the visible Church first you exclude both that in heauen of the Saints and that which shall be of these which aâ—e vnborne and yet do belong to the Catholike Church secondly you place faith in the sense which the Apostle saith is of things which are not seene Heb. 11.1 As for that Catholike Church which we beleeue it is the company of all the elect euen as many as haue been from the beginning of the world and shall be to the end therefore it is called the Apostolike and holy Church the communion of Saints And to this communion belong no prophane and wicked men no hypocrites because they haue no fellowship with Christ For the holy Church is the mysticall body of Christ of which body no member can at any time perish visible and sometimes inuisible In a particular visible Church of which they are members who will heare the Word and receiue the Sacraments we confesse there are many fained Christians who had rather haue the visard of faith then true faith indeed An inuisible Church we affirme to containe only the godly who with a
euer flourish But it is nothing to vs and you Church of Rome was then the preseruer of Religion the maintainer of the true faith and shined like a starre in the sight of all other Churches no maruell then though the most holy Fathers esteemed much the reuerence of this Church vrged the heretikes with the example of it Irenaeus August as a great preiudice vnto them Hence it is that sometimes they alledge the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome therby prouing that the heresies by them refuted were not heard of in the most famous and honorable Church But since that time the course of the Church is turned and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith to detestable falshood Restore vs Campian the old Church of Rome and we will neuer separate our selues from her but of that Church you haue nothing left but the walles and old rubbish yet still you bragge of the name of the Catholike Church And whereas you mention Altars on which the members of Christ are carried and Chalices containing his blood I know well many things concerning Altars are to be found in the auncient Fathers which Altars in Africa were not of stone but r DVR VVhat difference is there the Donatists ouerthrew vvoodden Altany and you Altars of stone WHIT pag. 389. They troubled sacred tables by their sacriledge not reprouing the administration of the Sacrament but the ordination of Bishops which yet was lawfull we haue cast downe Altars wickedly erected for the wicked Masse and prophane Idolatry Is there no difference thinke you woodden as you may see in Augustines Epistle to Boniface and I graunt the members of Christ and his Å¿ DVR Optatus writeth that the body of Christ dwelleth vpon the Altar WHIT. pag. 390. I answere that the sacrament of the body of Christ is after a sort Christs body and the name of the thing is giuen to the signe as is vsuall in all Sacraments For the body of Christ is no where properly but in heauen at the right hand of his Father where it shall remaine to the end of the world blood are receiued in the holy mysteries but after a heauenly and spiritual manner Epist 50. appropriate vnto our most holy faith As for your deuouring of flesh Optatus was not acquainted with it and the auncient Church of Christ not so much as euer dreamed of so great a monster They sing say you in their Churches the Creed of Athanasius but they fauour him not and why because he praiseth Antony the Hermit You speake wisely as t DVR But doe you thinke Hermits are worthy of any praise whom Athanasius praised in the person of Antony WHIT. pag. 391. Graunt vve vvell approue of the old Hermits yet may we thinke bad enough of your Monkes as vve haue done and professe it for iust causes seeing they differ both so much in manners and iudgements Antonius the Hermits grandfather vvas vvont to say that it was as dangerous for a Monke to go out of his hermitage as for fishes to leaue the water If you praise Antony so much vvhy do you not follovv him vvhy do you svvarme in all cities and famous places and doe not rather liue in some remote wildernesse as fishes swim in the Sea so should you be more like to Antony and free these parts from great damage though we were so enuious that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised nay there is somewhat else Athan. Ep. ad Fel. 2. He with his Synode of Alexandria humblie appealed vnto the sentence of the Apostolike Sea this Epistle is all counterfeit compacted of many lies and monstrous flattery Prudentius I grant as a u DVR Because he was a Poet forgate hee to be a Christian or did he any thing in verse which infinit learned â—athers haue not done before in prose WHIT. pag. 392. Who knovveth not that Poets vvere vvont to vveigh vvhat the verse required more then vvhat piety called for and to follovv the elegancy of poetry more then the streight doctrine of the Scriptures And such liberty of Poets men commonly find no great fault vvith yet see hovv foolish it is to auovv poeticall exornations for reasons in the controuersies of religion And if Prudentius follovved so many Fathers vvhy name you not one of them For 300. yeares after Christ there vvas no such custome in the Church vvhich you affirme so infinite a number of Fathers vsed and it rose vp in the Church but a little before Prudentius daies but both this and all other superstitions must be corrected by the authority of the vvord Poet sometimes called vpon the Martyrs whose acts he describes in verse and the superstitious custome of praying to Saints had now taken deepe roote in the Church which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error As for Vigillantius and Iouinian against whom Hirrâ—â—â—â— writeth most bitterly if they taught those things that are laid to their charge we maintaine them not That * DVR It seemeth you haue nothing to answere to Ambrose at all WHIT. pag. 393. Haue I answered nothing when a few lines before I affirmed that this superstition had got great footing in the Church was it not answere enough to shew I allowed not the corrupt iudgement of some Fathers What gaine you by this if we professe freely that some Fathers were infected with the errors of the time who yet kept sound doctrine in the fundamentall points whereas notorious corruption hath spread it selfe ouer your whole Church coÌ„sumed it the beginnings of corruptions in them is growne to an height in you without hope of cure Ambrose should be carefull to commend and set sorth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius we willingly permit Neither doe we wholy mislike Gregory with whom surely you haue more cause to be offended then we But wheras he said that Images were lay-mens bookes hee neither learned in x DVR Answere me in vvhat schoole did you learne to breake downe Images not in the schooles of Christians but of Iewes WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the schoole of the holy Ghost Deut 5.8 Iosh 24.23 where wee are taught to worship one God with religious worship and to cast out of the Church to breake and burne the Images of men though neuer so holy Moses beate the Calfe to powder the holy Ghost commended Hezâ—â—â—a for breaking asunder the brazen Serpent though it was set vp by Godâ— authority when the Israelits abused it to superâ—â—â—ion how much more ought we to destroy prophane Images monuments of cursed idolatrie Epiphanius being taught in this schoole rent the vaile which was hung vp in the temple hauing painted innt the picture of Christ or some Saint As also Serenus Bishop of Massilia who tooke downe broke the Images of his time I haue learned this then not out of the schooles of
and explaned Page 53. 54 The summe of the second answere touching the true meaning of the Scripture 1 The substance and soule of the scripture is the true meaning Page 59 2 The sense is not that which most hold but which is agreeable to the scripture ibid. nota 3 Papists make the Church the interpreter of scriptures that is first Bishops then Councels in their defect the Pope for he so challengeth it that whatsoeuer he thinketh that must be the meaning of it Page 60 4 It is very absurd to hang the sense of the scriptures vpon one mans iudgement especially vpon the Pope so vnlearned and absurd an interpreter as many of them haue bin Page 60. 61 5 They teach the sense of the scripture may be changed with the times and occasions Page 61 6 Foure senses of euery scripture made by Papists Page 61. 62 7 The manner of interpreting the scriptures amongst Protestants which is auncient and safe Page 62 8 Protestants do not exclude Christ from the supper as Papists falsely accuse them yet they include him not in it as Papists do his naturall body they place in heauen but the virtue communion and benefit of this body they exclude not but mainteâ—â— that whole Christ is present to each mans faith Page 63 9 Christ is as present in Baptisme and was to the Fathers as in the Supper ibid. nota 10 The popish and false interpretation of these words This is my body this my bloud confuted by the same rule whereby Campian would confirme them that is by conference of them with the words adioyning Page 64. 65 11 That the words of the sacrament bee figuratiue is proued by the induction of other sacraments Page 65. 66 12 There is no miracle in the sacrament Page 67 13 Papists affirme that the wicked eate the body of Christ as well as the beleeuer Page 67 14 All antiquity is on the Protestants side for the interpretation of the words of the sacrament against the Papists and so their transubstantiation is a new inuention Page 67 15 The testimonies of Tertullian and Augustine alleadged and of Theodoret. Page 68. 69 16 The testimonie of Macarius a Monke Page 70 17 Campian dealeth vnequally pressing the Protestants to leaue the iudgement of the scripture and stand to the iudgement of the Pope being an enemy to them Page 71 The summe of the third answere touching the nature of the Church 1 The true notes of the Church whose present being maketh a true Church whose absence marreth and ouerthroweth it are the word the whole and pure sacraments Page 77. 78 2 The Church is more hid and vnknowne then the Scripture Page 78. nota 3 The Church is euer and must be vpon the earth and oftentimes inuisible compared therefore of Augustine to the Moone Page 78 4 In the daies of Ahab and of Christ it was inuisible or scarce visible Page 80 5 Succession not necessary to the being of the Church for it hath bin and yet no Church as in the Church of the Iews Page 81 6 The small number of the faithfull as Christs 〈◊〉 Pag. 82 7 What is a visible Church Page 82. 83 8 Though perticular Churches are visible it followeth not that the Catholike Church is euer visible ibid. 9 The antiquitie of our faith and doctrine is from the Apostles time Page 83. 84 10 Superstitious growing vpon the Church Page 84 11 The growing of the Popes authority to the height it is now at 84. nota 12 The bringing of Images into the Church Page 84. nota 13 The Grecians not subiect to the Romish Church ibid. 14 The vow of virginitie not vnderstood by faith in S. Paul and what is meant by it Page 86. nota 15 To what Church the Protestants will subscribe Page 87 16 In the visible Church are both good and hypocrites in the inuisible only godly and faithfull men Page 88 17 The distinction of visible and inuisible make not two Churches but one and how they differ and what the Catholike Church is nota The summe of the fourth Answere touching generall Councels 1 Protestants with consent of antiquitie prefer the Scripture before Councels Page 94. nota 2 Nazianzenes hard censure of Councels Page 95 3 The first Councell hold by the Apostles and Church by necessarie consequent condemneth the multitude of popish ceâ—â—â—â—nies Page 96 4 Augustine condemneth the multitude of ceremonies in his time how would he complaine if he saw the multitude of popish ceremonies Page 96 5 Gregories speech expounded touching the foure generall Councels Page 97 6 The iudgement of the Church of England touching the foure generall Councels Page 98 7 The Popes may not haue Peters honour seeing they haue not his vertues and pietâ—â— 99 8 The Canon of the Councell of Nice vtterly ouerthrowed the supremacie of the Pope giuing him no authoritie ouer other churches no more then others ouer his Page 100. 101 9 The Councell of Calcedon doth not confirme the Popes supremacie but ouerthrowes it The Councell gaue to the church of Râ—â—â— greater prerogatiues because it was the chiefe seate of the Empire and not for any law of God and made the Bishop of Constantinople equall with the Bishop of Rome Page 101. 102 10 The Councell of Constantinople gaue vnto the sea of Rome the honour of precedence and place not of authority Page 103 11 The Councell of Ephesus ascribeth no more to the Bishop of Rome then to other Bishops ibid. 12 The Councell of Nice doth not establish the vnbloudie sacrifice of the altar for in the canon named there is no mention of sacrifice or altar Page 104 13 The Fathers haue called the Lords Supper an vnbloudie sacrifice because it is without bloud and not because no bloud is then shed Page 105 14 Saincts departed know neither vs nor the things we do or slâ—â—â—d in need of no reason then we should pray vnto them though the custome be auncient it hath no warrant Page 106 15 Saincts departed know our generall conditions as we theirs not our perticular state nota 16 S. Paul prayed not to the Romanes and Corinthians as Papists do to Saincts but required of them a christian dutie nota 17 The Councell of Calcedon admiâ—teth ministring Widowes who are but 40. yeares of age forbidding them marriage when as S. Paul would haue them 60. before they be admitted Page 107 18 Duraeus confesseth that in the first age they did not prefer continone is before marriage nota 19 They who haue vowed single life and cannot performe it haue done euill in vowing but not in marrying and for to vow things not in our power is to mock God Page 108 20 Chastitie and single life is not in mans power nota 21 Cyprian alloweth Virgins who haue vowed virginitie if they cannot liue honestly to marry Page 109 22 Campian maketh the Councell of Trent and other Councels equall with the foure Euangelists Page 110 23 Priuate men alleadging the scripture rather to be beleeued then the
Therefore you see there is no reason why for this cause Luther should either find fault with or feare the Epistle of S. Iames. And thus Augustine hath reconciled these two Apostles Iames and Paul that you may see that we are not broachers of any Noueltie Wherefore saith m DVR Augustine maketh nothing for you but against you WHIT. pag. 50. Augustinâ— affirmâ—th directly that S. Iames speaketh of a vaine and fayned faith which is as much as we here produce him for Augustine Aug. quaesâ— 85 quaeâ—t 76. the iudgements of the two Apostles S. Paul S. Iames are not contrarie each to other when the one saith a man is iustified by faith without workes and the other saith that it is a vaine faith which is without workes because S. Paul speakâ—th of workes which goe before faith Saint Iames of workes which follow faith at S. Paul himselfe sheweth in many places Therefore the Apostle S. Iames would not neither ought to detract any thing from the doctrine of iustification which Luther learned from S. Paul Yea all Papists and Iesuits shall sooner be torne asunder then this iudgement of Luther touching faith alone shall either quaile or be ouerthrowne From Luther you turne the edge of your speech to the whelpes of Luther for so you as an vncleane dogge terme men famous and flourishing with all good qualities But why you should so call them I well conceiue not vnlesse it be for that they neuer cease barking against your Bishops and Monkes and other Church robbers like your selfe But let vs heare what heynous thing those whelpes haue committed They haue on a suddaine put out of the true Canon of the Scripture Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of the Macchabees and many other bookes Say you of a suddaine Campian Is it true indeed that you are such a stranger in the writings of the auncient Fathers that you know not that long agoe these bookes were raced out of the Canon Looke I pray you into Hierome and out of him call to mind what antiquitie hath done That we may know saith n DVR Hierome saith that the former Churches did not receiue these bookes for Canonicall but denies them not to be Canonicall WHIT. pag. 52. Hicrome affirmeth not only that these bookes were not receiued of the fore-going Churches for Canonical but himself oâ—ten times denies them to be such and plainely cals them Apochâ—ypha bookes which he wâ—uld neuer haue done if the Church then had taken them for Canonicall yea and as Duraeus confesseth they were not so taken vntill â—lmoâ—t 70â— yeâ—res afâ—er Christ Hierome Hieron iâ— Prologo Galiato Whatsoeuer bookes are more then these they are to be accouÌ„ted among the Apochrypha Therefore Wisdome which commonly is called the Wisdome of Salomon and the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach and Iudith and Tobias and Pastor are not in the Canon Will you that are but a Frier put these bookes in the Canon which Hierome following the iudgement of the auncient Church and the truth it selfe denieth to be in the Canon marke well his owne words They are not in the Canon You say that we haue dashed them out and why should we not so doe For saith Hierome they are not in the Canon Desire you any further testimonies Epiphanius saith as much as Hierome who after he had recited diuers bookes which you say we haue put out of the Canon he thus writeth as Cornarius renders his words out of the Greeke These bookes verily are profitable and helpefull Epiphan in lib. de mensur Ponder but they are not reckoned in the number of those which are receiued Therefore they are not to be found in Aaron neither in the arke of the Couenant But see out of Hierome more manifest and pregnant things Hieron praefat in lib. Solomon As therfore the Church readeth the bookes of Iudith Tobias and Macchabees but accounteth them not Canonicall Scripture so also these two bookes he meaneth Wisdome and Ecclesiasticus it reades for edification of the common sort not for confirmation of any doctrine of the Church If Campian you be ignorant of these auncient testimonies you are but a young souldier in that kind of fight where you would be thought a well experienced Captaine but if you know them you are too vniust and iniurious vnto vs to obiect to vs I know not what desporation because wee admit not those bookes in the Canon of the Scripture which Antiquitie tels vs directly were neuer admitted neither are to be admitted Caietan in cap 24. Mattb. And verily Cardinall Caietan feares not to auouch that he that writ the booke of the Macchabees in a certeine prophesie of Daniels was a lyer but the holy Ghost was neuer wont to be deceiued in the interpreting of the Scripture Now wheras you imagine that we are conuinced by those Oracles as often as we dispute against the defence of Angels as often as we dispute against freewill as often as we dispute against praying to Saints You must fiâ—st before you can conuince vs proue that an argument will conclude necessarily out of those bookes to confirme the doctrine of the Church which Hierome demeth and you shall neuer be able to proue though you call all the Iesuits to a consultation And seeing you obiect desperation to vs see hoâ— you bewray your owne miserable â—esperation who cannot establish the Articles of your faith by the Canonicall Scriptures but you she to the Apocâ—ypha whose authority hath bin and for euer shall be doubted of in the Church The Lord hath commited his Will and Woâ—d to writing and commended it to his Church Those writings with all diligence and piety we receiue and reuerence we are content with them and we maintaine theiâ— sufficiency let goe then these questionable obscure and Apochrypha bookes and out of these contend with vs about religion But your religion long agoe hath passed beyond the bounds of the sacred Scripture and hath broken forth into many superstitions And hence it is that you doe the thing than which nothing can be more malapert and intolerable that is make of like authoritie with holy Scripture not only the Apochrypha bookes but euery o DVR Pag. 5â— â—â—e do not affâ—me Traditions to be of the same authority with the holy Scriptures WHIT. pag. 59 Though Duraeus heere denieth it yet the Councell of â—rent doth with the like holy affection and reuerence receiue and honor them as it doth the bookes oâ— the old and new Testamâ—nt See Decâ—et 1. Sess 4. vnwritten Tradition whersoeuer you come by them at the second or third hand But what do I telling you of these things who shamefully haue aduentured long since to violate and infâ—inge all the lawes both of God and man Take this from me if you can demonstrate that we haue condemned or reiected any one booke or any p DVR Pag. 64. You haue raced out these words out of S. Iohn Euery spirit
then marry that M. Doctor Martin Luther or M. Philip Melangthon or certeinly M. Zuinglius or without doubt M. Caluin and M. Beza haue faithfully intreated vpon those matters Tell vs Frier what should hinder why euery one of these you haue nominated may not as faithfully intreate of thâ—se things as those who haue liued before them in ages past what wanted they which the other had what skill of art what knowledge of the toÌ„gues what other helpes there is not any one of these but hath far surpassed in learning and all deserued commendation the whole society of Iesuits But why doe I compare these burning lights bright starres of piety and religion with the base scumme of your Doctors and this now is another of your reasons why you were so desirous to haue audience in the Vniuersity Schooles If you be Campian sodesirous as you would make the world beleeue I maruell why you are so long a comming for our schooles were euer open for you but you could neuer find the way into them If you hereafter come you shall find many in our schooles that will encounter with you in all kind of learning And heere you end your discourse of the right sense of the Scriptures EDMVND CAMPIAN The third Reason which is the nature of the Church SO soone as the Aduersarie heard the Church named hee waxed wanne yet notwithstanding hee hath deuised one thing which I would wish you to note well that thereby you may perceiue the ruine and hard shifts of falsehood The enemie perceiued that both in the a Apoc. 2. Psal 7. Isay q. 32. Cant. 6. old and new b Mat. 13. Ephes 5. 1. Cor. 12. 1. Tim. 3. Ioan. 15. Matth. 16. Matth. 18. Testament there is euery where * The scripture maketh honorable mention of the Church therefore the Romane Church is that true Church of Christ of which the Scripture speaketh so â—â—ten honorable mention made of the Church and that it is called a holy citie a fruitfull vineyard an high hill a direct path the only doue the kingdome of heauen the spouse and bodie of Christ the pillar of truth the multitude vnto which the holy Ghost being promised powreth all things needfull to saluatioÌ„ The congregation against all which the gates of hell shall neuer so preuaile that they shall vtterlie extinguish the same The congregation which who so repugneth though he confesse Christ with his mouth yet hath he no more to doe with Christ then hath a Publican and heathen man He durst not say any thing against this openly neither would hee seeme to gain-say that Church whereof the Scriptures so often make mention He kept craftily still the name of the Church but the thing it self by describing it he * This is false for your definition maketh a true Church took quite away For he hath portraied the Church with such properties as doe altogether hide it and make it as if it were Plato his Idea c Caluin Jnst. lib. 4. cup. 1. Num. 2.3 Apoc. 1.2 3. vnapt to be seene with the senses but subiect to the priuy insight and speculation of a very few men such onely as by speciall inspiration might in their imagination comprehend this arrie bodie and could likewise with a sharpe eye discerne such as are members of this chosen societie what is become of truth where is plaine dealing what Scriptures what iust iudgmentes what Fathers describe the Church in this sorte * Particular Churches are visible therefore the Catholik Church is visible There are Epistles in the Apocalyppes of S. Iohn written by d Act. 8.10.11 seq Christ himselfe to the seauen Churches which were in Asia There are also diuerse Epistles written by S. Peter S. Paul S. Iohn and by others vnto sundry Churches In the Actes of the Apostles we finde mention made of many Churches begun and enlarged what were those were they knowne to God onelie and to his Saintes or also to all sortes of Christians But truly necessitie is a deadly dart pardon them for they that all these * This is false our doctrine hath been deriued from Christ himselfe vnto vs by the faithfull of all ages 1500 yeeres cannot spie out so much as one time one village one house embrued with their doctrine vntill that vnhappie e Lutherus Moncke by his incestuous marriage had destoured a Nunne dedicated to God by former solemne vowe or vntill that quarrelling Swizer f Zuinglius had conspired against his countrie or vntill that infamous runagate g Caluinus had vndertaken an vsurped authoritie in Geneua If they will haue any Church at all they must needes fetch the same out of blind corners and challenge those for their ancestors whom they neither knew themselues neither any mortall man hath seene except they brage of such forefathers who were manifest heretiques as Aerius Iouinianus Henri Pantal in Chrenogra Heluidius Vigillantius the Image breakers Berengarius Waldensis Lothardus Wyclife Husse of all which they haue begged some peices of their diuelish doctrine Maruaile not though I haue not feared these smoders which if I shall once come to the cleare light I shall easily expell For this is our speech together Tell me dost thou beleeue as the Church doth which flourished these many hundred yeeres past Yea verilie let vs therefore discourse of our countries and times what Church dost thou beleeue The congregation of the faithfull whosenames are vnknowne but it is apparant that many such haue been Is it apparant that manie such haue been To whom it is apparant To God who saith so we that haue receiued our doctrine from God himselfe This is a loude lie how may I beleeue it If thou were feruent in faith thou should know this as assuredlie as thou dost that thou art aliue Can you refraine laughing when you heare such foolish answers All Christian people are commannded to cleaue fast vnto the Church they are warned to take heed lest they be slaine with the spirituall sword they are bid keepe peace in the house of God to commit their soules in trust vnto this pillar of truth there to make all their complaints to take for heathen all such as are cast out of this Church and yet all that haue so many men so manie hundred yeeres been ignorant where that Church is or who belong vnto it will they in darkenesse still stand vpon that point that where or in what place soeuer the Church is there are contained therein onely saints and such as are predestinate to goe to heauen whereby it falleth out that if any man will refuse to obey his prelate he may thinke himselfe to be blamelesse in so doing if hee perswade himselfe that his said prelate hath committed any great offence by that meanes is excommunicated out of the Church When I perceiued that my aduersaries inuented such deuises and that they would not associate themselues to any Church that heretofore hath been
and that when they were quite depriued of the thing it selfe they would needes though with much adoe keepe still the bare name in possession I solaced my selfe with the hope I conceiued of your ripe iudgements yea and I nothing doubted but that assoone as you should find out euen by their owne confessions these their iugling trickes you would straightwaies like plaine honest and wise men cut off such foolish snares framed of set purpose to worke your ouerthrow WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the third Reason WHat is it Campian you further bring vnto vs you propound vnto vs the nature of the Church wherein you bring nothing besides your accustomed manner of vaine and childish oratorie neither worthy the hearing of our Vniuersitie men or answerable to the opinion that is held of you As touching the Church there are many questions and great controuersies and at this day almost all disputations about religion are reduced to this head For your a DVR Jt is well that once you will acknowledge vs to be Catholiks WHIT. pag. 247. Triumph not much for the name my meaning is to giue it you no otherwise thē vsually the name of man is giuen to a dead and dry corpes where nothing is but skinne and bone He is a Catholike not who followeth the popish Apostasie but that professeth the doctrine of Christ Catholikes being tossed with the boysterous stormes of other disputations haue been willing to take b DVR Is it so great a fault to flie into the hauen of the Church WHIT. pag. That is not the fault we taxe you for but that you couer all your errors by pretending the name of the Church And if we by manifest arguments out of the Scripture reproue and refell your heresies you cry out you are the Church and by that thinks to defend all things though they be neuer so absurde harbor in this hauen of the Church Here they dwell here they place all their hopes of safety and victorie heere they hide themselues whensoeuer they are beaten out of the field Therefore they fortifie this sconce with all the skill they can and strengthen it with munition on all sides for which cause I maruell so much the more to find you from whom so great things are expected in this controuersie to be so sleight and shallow for you neither teach nor conclude nor yet propound any thing for your Church against ours which hath in it either forceable reason or proofe But it may be this is but your first skirmish you will happely afterwards deale with vs hand to hand yet I wil trace you out in your owne steps that I may lay hold of you if happely I may find you any where certeine So soone say you as the aduersarie heard the Church but named he waxed wanne yea Campian it made him blush when he perceiued so chast holy a matron so impiously insolently to be abused by you The Church doth euer expell you and deny al commerce with you Yet you as very audacious importunate wooers giue not ouer your suite to compasse her Sure there was no cause why your aduersary should wax so wanne vnlesse he feared some euill measure from such cutthroats as you are Yet notwithstanding say you he hath deuised one thing which I would wish you to note well You will sure acquaint vs with some great and vnheard of matter verily I much desire to know what is this one thing yet I feare it will proue starke nothing and for all your throes you wil bring forth but a mouse As for the honorable praises of the Church you mention we both acknowledge those and speake far greater things of it but verily they agree not to your Church at all for it is the Babylonish whoore a branch cut off from the true Vine a denne of theeues a broad way leading to destruction the kingdome of hell the body of Antichrist a sinke of errors a great mother of fornications the Church of the wicked out of which euery Christian ought to depart which Christ shal one day fearefully destroy and giue her the iust recompence of all her sinnes In vaine then do you reckon vp the praises of the Church vnlesse you can demonstrate that they are proper to your Church which you shall neuer be able to doe so long as Rome standeth He would not say you seeme to gain-say the Church hee kept craftily still the name of the Church but the thing it selfe by his definition he tooke quite away We verily Campian c DVR Why do you not then defend her authoritie but diminish and lessen it yea and horriblie blaspheme affirming that the spouse of Christ may erre and be deceiued WHIT. pag. 248. It is you that blaspheme making the Church equall to God to whom it is only peculiar not to erre not be deceiued For the Church may erre though she be his Spouse but not persist in any deadly error as the Church of the Apostles did when shee thought her husbands kingdome was of this world yea and after shewed her ignorance of the calling of the Gentiles reuerence and honor the Church as our mother and in our definition wee both retaine the name and cleerely set out the nature of the thing it selfe But you hauing lost the Church long since do yet challenge the name and the vaine title of the church Our definition of the Church doth nothing like you why I pray you because we describe the Church by those properties which doe altogether darken and hide it Wee ascribe those properties to the Church which comprise the true nature of the Church whose presence make a Church and their absence marre or destroy a Church But what are those properties which you affirme to darken and hide the Church we verily iudge this to be proper to the true Church to d DVR The Church is not to be sought for by these as by notes but they are to be learned from the Church WHIT. pag. 252. Will it therefore follow because the word is no where else truly preached but in the Church nor the Sacramēts purely administred that the Church is not to be knowne and found out by then Yea the contrary followeth because they are not elsewhere but in the Church therefore by these notes the true Church is to be knovvne and demonstrated For if only Peripatetians professe the Philosophy of Aristotle then that kind of learning pointeth out the Peripatetians and distinguisheth them frō all other sects of Philosophers DVR Thus to search out the Church is but to secke out one vnknowne thing by another which is more vnknowne WHIT. pag. 254. As if the Scripture vvere more hidden and vnknovvne then the Church and the Scripture could better bee knovvne by the Church then it by the Scripture vndoubtedly no. 1. Because the Scripture begeteth and maketh a Church and then is a ting hknovvne vvhen the cause is knovvne 2. I here are many and diuers Churches
but there is but one constant Scripture alvvaies like it selfe 3. If at any time there vvas euer doubt made of the Scripture yet there haue been many moe questions and doubts concerning the Church Lastly the Scripture is called a Canon a rule novv the rule as it is straighter so is it more certeine then the thing that is squared by it DVR The notes of the Church ought to be such as are agreed vpon among all as are proper to it neither can be challengâ—d probablie by any other Church WHIT. pag. 356. I confâ—sse as much and such are our notes in all things vvhereas yours are nothing leste DVR But euery sect layeth claime to your notes WHIT. pag. 256. What then vvhat if you lay claime to the things I possesse are they therfore not mine ovvne Be it that heretikes do lay claime to the Scriptures yet they doe it vvithout all shevv of reason and out of the Scriptures only can they be confuted heare the word of Christ and keepe it to vse wholly and purely those Sacraments which Christ when hee departed from his Church left her as a pledge of his loue to her and as a proofe of her loyalty to him These we maintaine as the most true and substantiall properties of the Church and this definition made of the naturall and inbred principles and grounds of the thing which we define you shall neuer bee able to ouerthrow I pray you what is there heere that hideth the Church doth the word of God do the Sacraments hide the Church yea these are they that make the c DVR Why say you then that your Church lay hid for so many yeares together WHIT. pag. 260. Our Church did neuer lie so hid but it vvas discerned by your Pope vnlesse for so many yeares he persecuted shadovves Church appeare as cleere as any thing at noone day these giue vnto the Church strength health and beauty abolish these there will remaine nothing but the carkase of the Church What drowsie dreame then is this you tell vs of an airy body as if we denied that the Church could be found on the earth wee neuer doubted but the Church euer hath been and euer shal be vpon the earth though we also grant that the sight of it being sometime so cleere that it may be seen of all at another time is so obscured euer shadowed that one can hardly know it But no Church pleaseth you saue that which is continually flourishing and which is visible to all mens eies which hath a continuall succession of Bishops to be fetched from the beginning and which is subiect to the Pope Now Campian as for you you come to late to tell vs of these frantike popish dreames wee haue heard discussed and distolued them aboue a thousand times Doe you thinke you are able to make vs beleeue that the state of the Church is such that it cannot be hid that treachery should preuaile nothing against it an open enemy nothing Antichrist himselfe nothing These can neuer quite ouerthrow the Church they may driue it to straits and thrust it into corners August 4.8 Augustine compareth the Church to the Moone which sometime while it is inlightned by the Sunne-beames shineth out aâ— another time it is depriued of the greatest part of the light and sometime shineth not at all So the Church sometime shineth most brightly sometime is more obscured sometime hardly appeareth and her whole course is continually gayning and losing of light Will you that I manifest it to you by examples while Dauid and Salomon raigned the Church flourished in Israell but when Ahab raigned the face of the Church was so far obscured that the most diuine Prophet f DVR Elias spake not of the whole Church but of the kingdome of Israell wherein he liued WHIT. pag. 261. He liued at that time not in the kingdome of Israell but in the mouÌ„taine of God MouÌ„t Horeb. 1. King 19.8 But graÌ„t he spake of Israell only it is no lesse for our purpose For that which hapned there that no good men appeared though many lay hid so it may fall out in other churches and at other times that none or few of the faithfull appeare yet God may haue a multitude of vnknowne beleeuers Eliah complained that there was not one remaining saue himselfe If there could be such a hauocke made of the Church 1 King 14.10 hhm 10.3 that of all that great number of the godly there was scarce one to be seene though there was a good summe remaining of them it need be no wonder that in the kingdome of Antichrist who surpasseth all Ahabs and Iezabels in all brabarous cruelty that the Church should be so wasted that there should appeare a maruellous scarcity of faithfull men And yet could Antichrist in that great hauocke of religion and the Church neuer so far preuaile but there was a remanant of many thousand thousands of Saints who neuer bowed their knees to the beast neither euer receiued the marke of the beast Let vs passe along to those times when Christ liued vpon the earth and consider the state of the Church of Ierusalem For no Church can be more like to the Church of Rome then that as the state of it was when Christ did performe the worke of our saluation They had the Scripture they were a people zealous of the law they had the Temple they had Leuits Priests yea a high Priest what was wanting here to make a perfect Church Christ at length sheweth himselfe openly and bringeth that happie message of saluation this very Church hated persecuted cursed and in the end killed this Christ the Son of God the lagat of his Father the teacher of celestiall doctrine the author of our saluation This Church then Campian was it a true Church or no what think you If it was then the true Church hated Christ and iudged him worthy of death If it was not then where and what is the true Church for Christ at the first had a very smale number that if you answere g DVR The Church vndoubtenly was in Christ and his Apostes WHIT. pag. 262. See then what followeth for our aduantage it it so fell out that the true Church was not amongst them who had a lawfull succession ordeined of the Lord who also had the place the name the dignity and magnificent ornaments of the Church but it was in a few who after a sort were cut off from the Church it is a thing without question that the Church is not alwaies to bee sought for in a visible multitude and an outward succession of men but often times in obscure places and amongst a very few Christ and his company was the Church then you fall into that crime which you reproue vs for If then this might befall the h DVR That which befell the Synagogue of Hierusalâ—â—â— cannot befall to the Church of Christ whieth the Prophets haue plainly foretold should neuer perish
WHIT. pag 272. It the Arrians or any other heretike can proue the doctrine of their Churches out of the holy Scriptures they may answere the same which we doe for euery Church which holdeth the Apostles doctrine may professe that all cities village◠〈◊〉 which were religous were seasoned with their doctrine for in the Apostles time all Churches all cities all townes euery family embraced the same faith and religion which we now professe After that by little and little the purity of doctrine n DVR Tell me then from whom and in what age any doctrine of our profession was brought into the Church WHIT. pag. 277. The motion of the Sunne is so very swift that we may see it hath moued though we cannot discerne the mouing of it so such is the mystery of your iniquity that I well perceiue by the Scriptures your doctrines are not Apostolicall but the time when and the manner how they were brought in is not much to our purpose And it were too long to tell all yet heare some Your Romish Bishop a long time together was but equall to other Bishops thâ—ugh much was giuen to him for the excellency of that Church After the Christian world was diuided into foure Prouinces when he became the chiefe of the Patriarkes after this he began to challenge authority ouer other Churches and for that purpose counterfeited the Councell of Nice but he was repressed by the African Councell Then Gregory the great greatly inueyed against Iohn of Constantinople because he sought the name of vniuersall Bishop and for that ambition called him the forerunner of Antichrist Lastly Boniface the eight with a great summe obtained that honor of Phocas the Parricide And since that hee grew to that height that hee made not only Churches and Kings but the Christian Emperour himselfe to kisse his feete But see another example Time was when there were no images in Churches As that of Epiphanius proueth who rent a vaile in peeces because there was in it an image of Christ or of some Saint But in time they were receiued into the Church but no honor giuen them yet after that good Bishops brake them and cast them out againe as Gregory writeth that Serenus the Bishop of Massilia did whom he thus checketh for it In that you forbad them to be worshipped wee commend you but that you brake them we reprehend you Gregor regist lib. 7. Epist. 9. Lastly the second Nicene Councell decreed that they were not to be broken yea that they were religiously to be worshipped And thus hath it succeeded in other things as S. Paul did foretellâ—e saying The mysterie of iniquitie doth alreadie worke 2. Thess 2.7 began to be corrupted and diuers superstitions spread far and neare though the holy Fathers did as much as they could resist 2. Thess 2.7 vntill that mystery of iniquitie which tooke rooting in the very Apostles time spread it selfe o DVR VVhat can be spoken or imagined more wicked and impious WHIT. pag. 278. Then prophesied S. Paul impiously when he did so â—â—â—ell of a departing and that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God Is this any other then that the mysterie of iniquitie should spread it selfe ouer the Church by all the parts of the Church and at length possessed it wholy Yet Antichrist that man of sinne could neuer preuaile so farre but a great multitude of the Saints remained and those whose names were written in the booke of life did vtterly abhorre all those filthie and wicked superstitions of Antichrist For in the Church of Rome it selfe euen in the worth times of it yet many were euer found who worshipped the God of their Fathers and kept themselues vnpolluted with that horrible Idolatrie And this can histories of all times witnesse which I could now recite if it were needful and reckon vp to you many houses villages townes cities and countries where Christ had many and populous Churches The p DVR This is very false for in the FloreÌ„tine Councell the Emperour Paleolus together with the Grecians and Armenians freely acknowledged the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ and imbraced the Romane faith yea and at this day they dissent from vs in few things as Icremy the Patriarke of Constantinople hath plainly written WHIT pag. 279. Why are they then of you accounted Schismatickes or vvhy obey they not the Pope why came they not to the Councell of Trent the Pope by al meanes hath sought to haue theÌ„ subiect to him but they stil coÌ„temne him to his no small griefe It is true the Emperour the Patriarke and a multitude of Bishops came to the FloreÌ„tine CouÌ„cel They agreed vvith theÌ„ in many things â—â—â—hers they dissented your TraÌ„substantiation they vtterly renouÌ„ced At that time Iesaphus their Patriarke suddenly died Eugenius the Pope instantly vrged a nevv election They denied to make any till they came to Constantinople See you not hovv vvell they agree I haue a booke of yours not of Ieremies neither vvill a small thing make me beleeue it is his for both the Grecianâ— and particularly he hath giuer great approbation of our Churches as vve find it in his vvorkes published both in Greeke and Latin Greeke Church could neuer yet be brought to ioyne it self to your Church and it is 〈◊〉 opposite to you as euer our Church was And yet you so forge these things as if the Pope of Rome long agoe had had the whole world vnder his subiection Vntill that vnhappy Monke as you say by his incestâ—â—â—â— marriage had defloured a Nunne dedicated to God by 〈◊〉 soleâ—â—â—◠〈◊〉 or vntill that quarrelling Swâ—â—â— had câ—â—spired against his country or that infamous â—â—â—â—gate had vndertaken an vsurped authority in Geâ—â—â—â— So Campian go on to raile and reuile euery good man powre out the gall of your bitternes seeing you haue vndertaken to spend all your venemous darts vpon them Luthers name is written in the book of life and his memory shal euer be sacred among all good men and your reproaches shall not be able to pearce or wound him It is a true saying that a false repreach pierceth not the skinne you call him Monke your selfe is but a Frier now Monkes were euer accounted more honest then Friers But he by incestuous marriage deâ—â—oured 〈◊〉 Nomâ—â—â— dedicated to God by solemne vow q DVR But you goe against S. Paul who directly denounced damnation to those who will marry hauing broken their first saith which is vnderstood by all the Fathers of violating the vow of single life by incestuous marriages WHIT. pag. 281. But how proue you that the Apostle vnderstaÌ„deth by that faith the vow of virginity Nay the scope of the place sheweth vs the contrary for he forbiddeth that younger widdowes whom he perswadeth to marry should be taken into that office only such as were threescore yeares old who may well abstaine from marriages follow this calling Now if they be not of this age he sheweth
true faith lay hold on the Gospell These though they may bee seene as long as they liue amongst men seeing they are men as others bee yet because neither their faith nor Gods loue which maketh them members of the Church is visible we affirme that this Church consisting of holy and faithfull men is altogether inuisible Christ is the head of this Church to this only the elect caâ— ioyne themselues wee then acknowledge another Church besides that which coÌ„teineth only Saints for so should there be no visible Church at all but what company of men soeuer vpon the earth doth professe the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets we professe that to be the true Church of Christ though many wicked men be found in it Neither are we the first who did inuent and deuise these things as you say of vs but are ready to proue theÌ„ both by the holy scripture and by authority of Antiquity Comfort then your selfe Campian as much as you can with the wits of our Vniuersity men and promise to your selfe great things from vs but see you bring more dexterity of wit or else without doubt you can neuer deceiue vs with this shallow conceit If you should propound these foolish and childish things in the populous assemblies of our Vniuersity men I perswade my selfe they would not only teare to pieces these your childish shifts but do as much by you too for abusing so shamefully their learned conceites EDMVND CAMPIAN The fourth Reason which is generall Councels AGreat controuersie for the keeping of the ceremonies of the old law which in the Primitiue Church much moued the minds of faithfull people was by a Councell gathered together of the Apostles and some elders decided Children then beleeued their Parents and sheepe their Sheepheards charging them in this sort a Act. 15 It hath pleased the holy Ghost and vs after this there were holden foure generall Councels of auncient Fathers for the rooting out of heresie which budded vp aboundantly in euery age which were of such authoritie aboue b Greg. li. 1. epist. 24. 1000. yeeres agoe that * Gregorie made the foure Councels equall to the Euangelists great honour was attributed vnto them as though it had been vnto the foure Gospels I will seeke no further euen here in our owne Countrey by an c Anno 1. Elizab. acte of Parliament the selfe same Councels doe retaine still their former force and pure authoritie which said acte I will heere alleadge And call thee thy selfe O England my most louing Countrey to witnesse If thou reuerence as thou pretendest those Councels Nic. Can. 6. Chal. act 4. 16. Constan c. 5. Eph. conc in epist. ad Nestorium Nic. con 14 Chal. act 11 Nic. conc apud Soc. lib. 1 cap. 8. Vide Chalc. can 4.15.23 then wilt thou yeeld vp the supremacie to the Bishop of the chiefe sea that is to Saint Peter Then wilt thou acknowledge vpon the altar the vnbloodie sacrifice of the bodie and blood of Christ. Then wilt thou pray the blessed Martyrs and all the Saints in Heauen to make intercession to Christ for thee Then wilt thou restraine these leacherous Apostataes from their filthie carnall copulation and open incest Then wilt thou build vp many things which now thou pullest downe and wish many things vndone which now thou doest Moreouer I promise and vndertake as occasion and time shall serue to proue that the * Campian makes all Synods equall with the Gospell Councels holden at other times and namely the Councell of Trent haue been of equall authoritie and credit with the foure first Councels Wherefore then should I not come to this place of triall securely and couragiously to marke into what corner my enemie will creepe seeing I am * This is false ancient Councels doe not confirme the Romish faith ayded with the valiant and piked garrison of all the Councels For I will alleadge both most manifest matter which he shall not be able to wrest aside and also most substantially prooued which he dare not contemptuously reiect He will perhaps goe about to trifle out the time with multiplying of many words but if you be the men that I haue alwaies taken you for you will take so good heed vnto him that he shall neither rob you of your eares nor eyes If there shall be any at all so mad as to oppose himselfe against the sages of all Christendome and those such men as for holines of life learning and antiquitie are too great to be challenged I would willingly behold that brazen face the which when I shall shâ—w you I will leaue the rest to your imaginations In the meane while I will giue you this caueat that whosoeuer affirmeth that a generall Councell * The Councell of Trent was neither a full Councell nor lawfully held And so both the Emperor and the French King haue iudged Sleidan anno 1551. lib. 33. The assemblie of certaine men duly and orderly kept and finished is of no force or authoritie the same man seemeth to me to be one of no iudgement nor of any wit and not onely an asse in diuinitie but also voide of discretion in worldly policie If euer the spirit of God illuminated the Church surely then that time is most fit to send downe the holy Ghost when the religion perfection knowledge wisdome and honour of all Churches dispersed throughout all Christendome are assembled together into one Citie and vsing all meanes both diuine and humane whereby the truth may be searched out Matth 18. they call vpon the holy Ghost promised e Joh. 14. by God vnto them that by his assistance they may establish godly lawes for the safe and wise gouernement of the Church Now let there some pettie peart hereticall Doctor leape out let him looke vp stately let him scorne and mocke let him lay all shame aside let him saucily giue iudgement of his owne iudges what game what pastime shall he make we haue spied out such a one euen Martin f Lib. de capt Bab. Luther who saith that he more esteemeth of the voices of two honest and learned men ye may well imagine his owne and Philip Melancthons if they come together in Christs name then he did of all generall Councels O worthy companie We haue found out also another of the same crue to wit g Martini Kemnitij examen Conc. Tridentini Kemnitius who hath vndertaken to examine the Councell of Trent by his owne vnreasonable giddie braine what hath he gained an euill name so that he except he preuent it by recanting shall be buried for an heriticke with Arrius whereas the Councell of Trent the elder it waxeth by so much more it shall flourish daily and continually * The famous praises of the Councell of Trent O good Lord with what diuersitie of people out of all countries with what choice of Bishops throughout all Christendome with what excellencie of Kings and Common-weales with what
hasted into the Gourt hauing no promise from the Prince to rest vpon But Campian flie you rather to the Indians that you may take a suruey of your Popes new Prouince for our most wise Prince desires no such guests but banisheth you as farre as she can from her But now at length you returne thither whence you haue digressed and gloriouslie conclude this poynt concerning Councels saying The generall Councels make all for me the first last and middle You haue gotten an easie and speedie victorie I am almost perswaded that you are become another Caesar Vâ—ni vidi vici I came I sawe I ouercame but this is not to dart your Iaueling which you say is looped for the purpose I see words as it were tied together with strings or rather franticke speeches but as yet I discerne no speare either a Iauelin or a thongue or strength or which I rather beleeue all these are wanting vnto you Surely we of the Vniuersities Campian doe greatly desire to trie how skilfully you haue learned to tosse your speare and we hope it will come to passe that you being pierced with our darts will at length know and acknowledge your audacious temeritie and slothfull ignorance of this fight EDMVND CAMPIAN The fifth Reason which is the Fathers AS that famous Sirname of Christians increased first in a Act. 1â— Antioch so b 1. Cor. 12. Ephes 4.1 Cor. 14. Doctors that is very deepe Diuines and Prophets that is most famous Preachers first flourished there Our Lord himselfe prouided for his flocke in time to come such a sort of c Matth. 13.23 Scribes and wise men as were experienced in the kingdome of God bringing forth both old new things that is hauing God still both in Christ and Moses in the new and old Testament How mischieuous an act is it to expel with rebuke these men which were giuen vs by God for a speciall benefit The Aduersarie hath * This is false for we neuer hissed out any learned scribe expelled them For what cause for that if they had stood vpright he of necessity had fallen downe So soone as I throughlie perceiued that without any more adoo I desired to make not that flourishing fight which the common sort of people vse when they contend one with another in the open streetes but that seuere and sharpe combate by which we buckle one with another in your Philosophy schooles foot by foot man by man close ioyned together If we may once come to the Fathers the field is fought the wager wonne on our side For they are all ours assure as Gregory the 13. is a most louing Father to all the Churches children For to d S. Dion Areo pag. de quo vide Adon Treu. in Martyrel Adon. Turon Syng Suid. Metap omit diuers places which here and there dispersed being gathered together out of the auncient writings of the Fathers do very fitly and plainelie fortifie our faith we haue their whole bookes which of set purpose do expresly and copiously paint out liuely that selfe same Euangelicall religion which wee maintaine What orders of heauenly powers what sacrifices what solomne rites doth that two-fold Hierarchy of the Martyr S. Denys make knowne vnto vs That matter touched c Coment in 1.13 17. Deut. Item in cap. â—ab Luther so nigh the quicke that he affirmed this blessed mans writings to be most like to dreames and most pernicious f Dial. 5. 11. Caussaeus an obscure vpstart in Fraunce following the steppes of his Father Luther blushed not to tearme this Apostle S. * This Denys is counterfeice and forged Denys borne in a noble countrie an old dotard g Cent. 2. cap. 10. Inst lib. 1. cap. 13 num 29. The Magdeburgeans which lately set forth the Ecclesiasticall historie in Centuries were greatly grieued at S. * This Ignatius is counterfeite Ignatius so was Caluin also Insomuch that these bench whistlers pried out certaine foule blemeshes and vnsauorie speeches in his Epistles In these mens conceits also S. Ireneus writ one foolish toy and S. Clement who was author of the booke called Stromatum yeelded out of his works cockle and dregges And the residue h Cent. 2. cap. 5. vide Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. Seqq. of the Fathers of this age which were in very deed * They were Apostolike men yet they did not commit to writing all the things the Apostles did Apostolike men left vnto their posteritie blasphemous and monstrous doctrine In i Lib. de Prascript contra Haâ— Tertullian they greedily catch at that fault which being told therof by vs they with vs also detest But let them call to mind the booke which he writ de Praescriptionibus wherwith the heretikes of our time had so sound a blow was neuer hither to reprehended by the Church How sufficientlie and euidently hath * This Hyppolitus is counterfeite Hyppolitus k Orat. de consum Secul Bishop of Portua foreshewed the raigne of Luthers heresies which was a strong pillar in Antichrists building And for that cause they call him amost childish scrible a masker That l Iuel c. causs Dial. 8. 11. criticall French man Caussaeus and the m Cent. 3. cap. 4. Magdeburgeans do call S. Cyprian who was the flower and honor of Africke a blocke head a man cast out of Gods sight a deprauer of the true doctrine of Penance why what hath he done he hath writ for sooth one booke of Virginity and another of those that are Relapsed and certaine treatises of the vnity of the Church yea such Epistles also vnto Cornelius Bishop of Rome that except this blessed Martyr be disgraced Peter Martyr the Vermillian and all his confeder aâ—s must bee taken for worse then adulternous Church-robbers And lest I should stand too long vpon particularties aft the Fathers of that age are n Cent. 3. cap. 4. generally * This is false for none doe condemne or reiect the Fathers of this age condemned as men that haue corrupted wonderfully the sincere doctrine of Penance Hoâ— I pray you the Austerity for sooth of the o Canones Poenitentiâ— veâ—eres Canons which at that time was vsed doth highly displease this plausible sect which are fitter for Chambers then for Churches and is accustomed to tickle sensuall eares and to so â—cushions to euery elbow wherein I say wherein hath the next age offended forsooth S. Chrysostome and other Fathers of that time haue fouly darkened iustification by faith only S. Gregory Nazianzen whom auncient writers for honor sake haue Sirnamed Theologus 1. the Diuine by Caussaeus iudgement was but a q Dia. 6.7.8 brabler and knew not what to say S. Ambrose was bewitched of an euill spirit S. r Beza in Act. Apost ca. 23. Stancha li. de Trin. Hierome is as * This which concerneth S. Hierome is all false deeply damned in hell as the diuell himselfe
would follow that God himselfe the author of nature is culpable And so proceedeth vtterly denying that he had any purpose in those bookes to speake of that will which is made free by Gods grace And whatsoeuer in these books passed his pen which seemed to fauour the Pellegians then Patrons of freewill as you are now all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole worke and cleareth it from their cauils Haue we any cause to be offended with Augustine which in this question is not against vs And that you may plainly perceiue how indiscreetly you alledged these bookes of free-will marke what hee writeth of the will of man in those same bookes n DVR Wherto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorāce all Catholikes beleeue that the will of man though free is able to do nothing to merit heauen by but by the grace of God And you are ignorant that the freedome of will consisteth in this that by no necessitie it is carried to either part WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time beleeued as much But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace and not made good by grace so you teach that no new will is infused but the natural is helped and as it were vnloosed by grace which is not much from Pelagianisme for both of you defend that the liberty of wil remaineth in mans corrupt nature that it need not be giuen him from aboue but only by the helpe of grace to be drawne out of certeine difficulties in which the corruption of sinne had left it And as for my ignorance I confesse it and thinke it more learned then your knowledge for if those who do things necessarily do them not freely then neither God nor the diuel worketh not freely for God worketh well and the diuell euill necessarily So you see necessity is not opposed to freewill for not necessity but force and compulsion taketh away the freedome of the will Hold thou fast saith Augustine this principall of piety Delibere Arbit 61.2 cap. 20. that no good thing happens vnto thee either when thou thinkest or vnderstandest or any way imaginest which is not from God And this was Augustines constant opinion of freewill after that being stirred by the Pellagians he throughly vnderstood the question viz. that he iudged it to be vtterly lost and gone o DVR The meaning of the place is this that man so lost his freewill that be lost himselfe yet so as no man in his right wits will deny but he is a man still WHIT. pag. 384. You graunt as much as we desire for as man lost himselfe and yet remained a man but not such as he was good iust holy indued with perfection but cleane changed so the free will of man was lost not that no wil remained but that it was changed from good to euill for we say not there is remaining no freewill at all but no good wil as we affirme not there is no man at all remaining but no good man Man saith he by abusing his free-will lost both it and himselfe Enchir. 3. But yet further you vrge Augustine against vs for say you they that make their captious deuises the rule of their faith must not they bee offended with Augustine which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus An Epistle Campian do you call it it was euer accounted a booke but what is there in that Epistle as you call it against vs in which he professeth himselfe to agree with Antiquity vnity perpetuall succession and with that Church which alone amongst so many heresies hath attained vnto the name Catholike by prescription We also agree with that Church which hath all these And yet to these must be added as Augustine saith in the same place sincere wisdome and truth else all the other bind vs not for they are of no value without that wisdome but this wisdome and truth though without these is of it selfe to bee preserred before all things so saith Augustine Cont. Fundam cap. 4. if the truth appeare manifestly so as it cannot be doubted of it alone is more to be esteemed then p DVR Augustine affirmeth that these cannot be without the truth WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine sheweth the contrarie for if truth cannot be separated from these he had spoken very vnfitly when he said he preferred the truth before all these If you can take or rightly challenge the possessiō of truth in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity Vnity Succession all those reasons that keepe me in the Catholike Church Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it selfe alone and sincere wisdome then all those things you mention Antiquity Vnity Succession and we perceiuing this truth and wisdome so manifestly in our Churches that none that will see the truth can doubt whether we hold the truth or no do willingly giue you free liberty to bragge whilest you list of antiquity vnity succession without the truth There is then as you see no cause why we should be angry with Augustine either now or before But at length you leaue Augustine and call out Optatus Bishop of Miletum of whom you say you desire to know what our opinion is I verily thinke he was a good Father and very like vnto Augustine and I take the things to be true which many worthy men haue said in his commendation But he disproued the Donatists by the communion of the Catholike Church Why should he not or what doth that cōcerne vs Augustine also obserued the same course and it was a good motiue that the communion of the Church should be obiected to the schismaticall Donatists which seditiously without cause separated themselues from the Church But wee deny your Church to be Catholike and therefore you cannot thus conuince vs though Optatus might therby confute the Donatists It must first appeare that it is the Church before we can be conuicted of schisme The q DVR So indeed Caluin answereth but it will not serue your turne for Opratus proueth himself to be in the Catholike Church because he ioyned himselfe to Saint Peters chaire WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peters chaire the externall seate or the succession of Bishops you shall neuer proue it and the contrary I cen easily obiect out of Optatus himselfe Optatus calleth Syritius Bishop of Rome his fellow and the companion of other Bishops who held a sound and Catholike iudgement With all those Syricius agreed in one society and fellowship by their letters sent one to another as witnesses of their consenting in doctrine and lawfull ordination Optatus then proueth that he was a Catholike because he kept the Catholike confession and coniunction with Syrrcius and other Bishops Finally his argument was good against the Donatists who did separate themselues from the communion of the Catholike Church while they consented not with these Churches where the doctrine of the Apostles and a lawfull ordination of Bishops did
fathers themselues For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers that you might shew you esteemed their sayings as diuine Oracles because you saw that was too slender and that no man would iumpe with you in that point you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and strengthen the authoritie of the Fathers Now the strength and as it were the bond and sinewes of this disputation is this a DVR Campian doth not dispute so but say he do what reproue you for he speaketh not of one Father but of the consent of all vvho flourished in one age whom Saint Paul saith Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church Eph. 4.11 WHIT. pag. 408. Then as you confesse I swarued not much from his sense But thinke you the reason is of force The auncient Fathers haue diligently read and searched the Scriptures therefore they neuer erred in their interpretation If iâ— hold in the Fathers why not in others vvhich do search the Scriptures as vvell as they vvhich if you once grant you ouerturne your owne cause And though they were Pastors of the Church yet vvere there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church vvho either vvrit nothing at all or their vvritings are perished so that vvhat they deliuered vve possibly cannot knovv vvhat a vaine thing is it then to bragge of the consent of all vvhen you can hardly name tvventy in the most flourishing age that euer vvas vvhose bookes came to our hands Besides the consent of all in one age in no controuersie can you bring against vs except it vvere in the most corrupt ages Lastly the Pastors Christ gaue to his Church vvere men such as might erre and vvho had no promise to be kept from error if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures The Fathers haue searched the Scriptures most diligently they haue heaped vp store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures they haue attributed the chiefe place to these therefore wee ought to bee content with their exposition of Scriptures and without sinne wee may desire no better This either is the sense of this place or else there is no sense in it And verely I professe you haue laid these things downe so faintlie and looselie that I can hardlie discerne their scope for what I pray you can bee spoken more loosely The fathers haue diligently laboured to vnderstand the Scriptures therefore in their exposition of them they haue neuer erred But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers which all may well be false but more then one of them cannot be true I will giue you one example for a thousand b DVR VVe confesse euery Father may errâ— but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did euer fall into any error which vvas contrary to faith WHIT. pag. 412. As if this vvere not a matter of faith vvhether S. Paul lyed or vvhether he ingenuously reproued S. Peter as he professed he did For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly then may it be lavvfull for vs to dissemble and after confirme it vvith a lye both vvhich are contrary to sound doctrine But particular dissentions you stand not vpon you desire to see some generall vvhen you grant euery particular may erre vvill it not follovv that all may But see an example In the Councell of Constantinople held vnder Leo the Pope the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches But the Nicene Councell vnder Iren. condemned this Canon yea and by a third Councell held in Germany this decree vvas againe condemned One of these certeinly must needs be deceiued Againe haue you forgotten that Augustine vvith Innocent the Bishop of Rome other Bishops of the Church did thinke it necessary that the Eucharist should be giuen to Infants vvhich error continued a long time in the Church Thinke you these are not points of faith S. Paul writeth Gala. 2.11 that at Antioch hee withstood Peter to his face what a kinde of opposition this was you would know but cannot of your selfe find it out You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter one Apostle another and happely you suspect some mystery may be hid in it you goe to the fathers you enquire of Hierome August Hieron in Epistol and of Augustine two very famous lights of the Latine Church What do they tell you Augustine thinke that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thoughte Hierome that he spoke fainedly If you approue the one you must needs reiect the other for you cannot consent with both Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vnto you I know how sayth Hierome otherwise to account of the Apostles then of other writers Hieron in Epist. ad Theophilis They euer spâ—â—kâ— the trâ—â—â— these as man haue erred in some things Yet they read the Scriptures they were conuersant in them and spent themselues wholly in meditating vpon them From these you may discerne how your accusation is most vniust and our defence most equall and iust I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations so you will confesse they are men extoll them with all the prayses you can to the very heauens where they are now free Denizens I could wish that that which they constantly did either you would do search the Scripture or suffer vs to do then I doubt not but this fight would haue a good issue But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his owne voice and commended to our diligent search you flie from and abhorre as theeues doe the gallowes you abandon them out of mens sight and yet you haue neuer done searching for you compasse sea and land to find out old traditions and customes long ago dead and buried mens inuentions decrees of Popes the corruptions of Churches fained and forged bookes diriges scrappes dreames and fables but the holy Scripture you touch not at all lest as I suppose they would make against you At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after and search the Scriptures c DVR VVe allow all to read the Scriptures as many as can vvell and safely do it And then vve account the search good and sound vvhen men are able to interpret them not out of their ovvne heads but by the authority of the auncient Fathers WHIT pag. 415. You shew your good nature that you will not reproue that which is well done But may none else reade the Scriptures but men qualified as you write then very few must spend their labour in them But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers yea and he commaunded all whosoeuer to seeke eternall life and desire to know Christ Joh. 5.39 and not the learned only as Christ hath commaunded Origen in Isas hom 1. and the ancient fathers haue done And would to God as Origen writeth we all would doe that which is written Search the
new Sacraments new sacrifice and new doctrine of religion There hath not been found any one Historiographer either Latin or Greeke neither abroad nor at home which hath vouchsafed so much as to make a little note in his bookes of so notable a matter though it had been neuer so slenderly Wherefore this is a matter manifest enough if the Historie which is a faithfull witnes of antiquity and the life of memory do in many and sundry places copiously entreate and spoake of that faith which we professe and if no History at all since the creation of the world do affirme that that faith which the aduersaries do thrust vpon vs was 〈◊〉 allowed in the Catholike Church then are all the Historiographers on our part and the inuasions of the aduersaries are not friuolous and such as can make no man afraid except it bee first granted that all Christians throughout euery age haue fallen to grosse infidelity and consequently into the deepe pit of hell vntill that Frier Luther committed aduoutrie with the Nunne Katherine Bore WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the seauenth Reason which is the Historie NOw you call vs to Historie the witnes of times and reporter of Antiquity and all that haue taken paines in publishing the Ecclesiasticall Historie their names you set downe and like dumbe showes you carry them in great pompe as though Campian the particular naming of all that haue published any Historie were sufficient for the remembrance and searching out the monuments of Antiquitie What insolent new kind of Logicke is this to recken vp the Historians of the whole world and of particular countries and then conclude they are your owne Haue you of late from aboue procured this priuiledge that whatsoeuer you lay your hands vpon shall by and by become yours we haue long since perused the auncient Chronicles wherein the beginning and proceeding of the Church is set downe and we find not that they fauour you more then vs. If in them be some things against vs many moe and more waightie testimonies they haue against you and such as giue you a deadlie wound else would wee neuer haue collected the Histories of the auncient Church so accuratelie and diligentlie penning them exactlie and distinguishing the seuerall ages and times neither would wee haue published them in the world if they were so contrarie vnto vs as you surmise for who haue taken more paines to finde out or more faithfullie restored the Ecclesiasticall Histories then our men without whose labours many monuments of Antiquitie had been buried in darlinesse We therefore will neuer denie this triall of Antiquitie and seeing you appeale to auncient Histories wee condiscend yet with this caution that we be not tied to those things which were apparantly blemishes in the auncient Church Especially seeing that writers of Histories intending to make a natration of things done doe not so much teach vs what ought to bee done but haue an eye to that which was then performed and by that meanes set downe many things worthie of reprehension rather than imitation and for the most part it happens that Historiographers are possessed with the errors of the times wherein they writ and euer the later writer the more corrupt But here you exclaime that wee seeke euasions and very peruersly you slaunder vs that because wee doe not allowe all wee refuse all They that reforme what is amisse doe not blame the rest that is not faultie Striue while you list Campian and crie out of mazes and labyrinths at length will you nill you by the cares must wee bring you to the iudgement of the Scriptures And herein Campian you very much a DVR And vvhy may not Campian trumph for what impudencie is this to cry out that the Church of Rome is full of innumerable heresies and yet you cannot tell vvhen one of them euer began in vvhat Popes time by vvhat meanes hovv it increased in the Church WHIT. pag. 477. A good cause would be defended by reasons not raylings But doth it follow that the Church of Rome is not corrupt because wee cannot tell the moment of time when it began to be corrupt but being so manifest as it is what need we search the Histories to shew the beginning what I pray if you see a man sicke of the pestilence a citie corrupt with riote and wickednesse a house ruinous and readie to fall a shippe sincking will you deny all these vnlesse one can tell you the time when he began to be sicke the meanes how the city grew corrupt who vvas ovvnet and in vvhat yeare the house grevv ruinous and in vvhat daâ—e the shippe began first to leake And vvhat is the force of your reason and demaund other then this But doe not your owne Histories tell vvhen and by vvhom innouations and corruptions entred see a fevv of them Hee that first vsurped authoritie ouer other Churches vvas Pope Victor after him Zozimus Boniface Celestiue and theâ— successura Pope Syricius first foâ—bad Priests marriages The Manichies first denied the Cup to the people The Nicene Councell first ordained vvorshipping of Images Pope Nicolas the second first taught the bodie of Christ must carnally be handled broken and eaten Pope Jnnocent the third first established the doctrine of Transubstantiation Boniface the third that the Pope vvas the head of all Churches Gregorie the great taught Purgatorie first for a certeine truth The Florentine Councell that the Pope was aboue Councels Jnnocent the third brought in auricular confession If these vvere not sufficient I could produce sire hundred more triumph when you demaund at what time vnder what Bishop by what way and proceeding was a new religion spread ouer the Citie of Rome and the whole world and doe not doubt but that if any change and declining had been many writers would haue made mention of it or diuers or one at the least It is hard for vs to answere at what time neither is it necessarie to set downe the very instant of time All things were not at once ouerturned in the Church of Rome sinne and wickednes came to his height by degrees and by leisure to ripenes the haires of our head are not all gray of a suddaine neither doth any thing suddainely come to his maturitie and the growth of euery thing appeareth long after This is manifest in such things as hauing small beginning goe on forward vnto a greater quantitie vntill they come to perfection you cannot deny but there was a great alteration of Religion in the Church of b DVR It is not hard to knovv the heresies of the Ievves for Philastrius Epiphanius Iosephus haue vvritten of them WHIT pag. 484. It is as easie to know the heresies of Christians being more in the Christian Church then euer vvere in the Church of Ierusalem and of these also haue many bookes been vvritten Ierusalem what then was the change all at once shew vs then how those nouelties entred into the Church what time what way who
was Bishop and by what proceedings it increased You Romanisâ— condemne the Greeke Church and yet it is nothing so corrupt as yours c DVR You require an easie thing for the authors of the heresies of the Greeke Church vve can easily number out of their stories Samosatenus Eutyches Sergius Arrius Nestorius Macedonius and such like WHIT. pag. 486. It is a vvonder that you vvill obiect these heresies vnto the Greeke Church vvhen you cannot bee ignorant but that moe and more horrible heresies sprung vp in the Romish Church and almost in the middest of Rome For Valentinus Marcion Cerdon Florentius Blasius Tatianus Nouatus Pelagius Julianus Celestinus and other such did broach most pestiferous heresies in Rome If you ansvvere the Latin Church condemned these I can ansvvere so for the Greeke Church And if you thinke you haue obiected vvell in numbring certeine heresies of the Greeke Church you may thinke I haue ansvvered asvvell in reckoning the heresies of the Latin Church Declare now vnto me those circumstances of time in the declining of this Church which you demaund for your owne Poynt out the time the Bishop and the growth of their Apostasie As the alteration of these Churches was then easie to bee discerned when it first beganne though now it be very hard to finde out those circumstances so we see plainely a great change in the Church of Rome yet can we not certainely pronounce the seuerall times of their seuerall declining Many are manifest which were too long to rehearse and those are distinguished according to their times and seasons The case was with the Church of Rome as we see it is in a great building for as a house which is strongly built at the first continueth so of it selfe a long time after sound and whole but if for a time it be left and neglected it beginneth in some place to decay and to bee full of chinkes which in time waxe big by degrees till they threaten ruine to the posts and roofes themselues and at length by this meanes the whole building is ruinated and falleth downe so the Romane Church in processe of time declined from her auncient estate and by the infection of error and superstition daily preuailing at length shee lost the very spirit and life of the Church Eusebius reporteth that one Polycrates Bishop of Ephesus had written of the Church that she was whilest the Apostles liued a chaste and vndefiled Virgin For then they that would haue altered the holy paterne of sound doctrine did it faintly and fearefully not daring to creepe out of their holes d DVR O horrible fact ó intolerable vvickednes vvith vvhat face can you thus speak if you remember hovv Christ promised his spouse perpetuall preseruation Hose 2.20 Isa 59.21 Psal 131.17 and such like WHIT pag. 4â—8 If your arguments vvere as great as your outeries vvho could deale vvith you That the Church may be corrupted see these places Matth. 13.25 1. Cor. 5.6 2. Cor. 11.3 Isay 1.21 Gal. 1.6 and 2.1 Further vvhat haue I else spoken that Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 32. and Nicephorus lib. 3. cap. 7. 10. haue not before time vvritten And vvhen I vvrit these things I remembred vvell those promises and many other of that kind But I knovv that they belong to the Church of the elect and hinder not but that particular Churches may bee corrupted by error and false doctrine DVR Eusebius doth not anouch these from Polycrates but from Hegesippus vvho called the Church a Virgin because heretikes as yet had not openly opposed her and corrupted the seates of the Apostles and did not say that shee vvas corrupted after them WHIT. pag. 490. The matter is not great vvhich of them spake the vvords for vvhosoeuer shall vvergh the vvords shall see that the sense of them is as I haue said And if the Church vvas euer to remaine a chast and pure Virgin hovv foolish should that Hegesippus be in affirming that hitherto she remained a Virgin or vvhat may his meaning bee else then that the Apostles being dead she began to be corrupted vvhich the vvords follovving proue vvhen that age vvas ouerpassed then she began to be corrupted vvith impious error Yea and vvhen you say that as yet heretikes had not assaulted her nor inuaded the tents of the Apostles either you say nothing or you graunt that after the Apostles time they did assault her and preuaile against her But after that the Apostles departed vnto the heauenly mansions and none of that age left that had been hearers of Christ himselfe neither any of the Apostles liuing then began abhominable error to gather strength and openly in the Churches to aduaunce it selfe What more pregnant testimonie of antiquitie and historie can you desire Whilest the Apostles liued the Church was a Virgin assoone as they were dead she became corrupted and the mischiefe no doubt in time increased and spread it selfe abroade But I woonder that this e DVR Nay rather if hee were liuing hee would wonder at your foâ—lie who are either so ignorant or so forgetfull that you obserue not hovv Polycrates sent letters to Pope Victor touching the new coÌ„trouersie about the cele bration of the Passeouer WHIT. pag. 492. It seemeth in policie you passe ouer this place in silence without answere and tel vs a tale of another different thing which affordeth vs a strong argument against the tyranny of the Pope for if the most learned and holy Bishops of the Greeke Churches dissented greatly from the Pope in the celebration of Easter and would not follow the custome of the Pope and Romish Church though the Pope sought it by all meanes who can doubt but that this supreame power of the Pope ouer all Churches vnder Christ as his Vicar was vnknowne and vnheard of among them Polycrates was either so ignorant or forgetfull that hee considered not this that the Pope of Rome was left vnto the Church in the Apostles roomes to defend this Virgin and preserue her chastitie Why calleth hee the Church a Virgin Because the Apostles were liuing by whom her audacious aduersaries were alwaies discouraged and discomforted But either in this respect the Church now wanteth a Pope or else shee needes him not at all But Polycrates although there were none left to preserue the puritie of this Virgin bewaileth her want as you see which surely had been vnaduifedly done if his opinion had been that this charge belonged to the Bishop of Rome The Church then from the Apostles time began to decline and inclined to the apostasie which the Apostle did foretell should be and we see now fulfilled Then those Wolues of whom the Apostle did forewarne Act. â—0 19 came into the Church and ceased not to destroy the flocke Then those Antichrists whereof Iohn affirmeth some were in his time 1. Ioh. â— 18 began to vndertake the worke which after was perfected and accomplished I might heere shew you many euident tokens of your
Churches Apostasie out of these your owne Chronicles they are no secrets but such as any man that will reade and obserue may easilie discerne And since you call vs vnto Histories f DVR Two things here are of which you would persvvade the Reader one that the Fathers of the Councell allovved not that vvhich the Pope affected by his Legates another that the Legates did malitiously produce a forged Canon What vvould you doe if you could find any thing of vvaight in any storie against vs WHIT pag. 494. They are the things indeed wherein I would instruct the Reader and what can any storie afford vs more solide and perspicuous for whether you respect the aâ—â—bition and fraud not vsed in former times by the Bishops of Rome or the authority of the Councell or that famous sentence giuen against the Bishops of Rome there is no man so ignorant and vnexperienced but he will confesse that they enacted and decreed a great matter and of no smale importance I will put you in mind of one thing related in an auncient storie consider it well whether it touch your Pope or no and then answere fully concerning the whole matter A Councell was assembled in Africke of 217. Concil Carthag 6. cap. 3.1.7.9 Bishops whereof Augustine himselfe was one the glorie and starre of Africke I will set downe the story briefly Zozimus Bishop of Rome sent thither his Legates which should perswade the Fathers of Africke that appeales might be made to the Bishop of Rome from all other Bishops The Legates make relation hereof vnto the Fathers and withall produce a Canon of the Councell of Nice wherein the priuiledge was recorded the Fathers wonder at this new decree and answere the Legates that they neuer saw any such Canon in any copie Greeke or Latin and that as they thought the true and perfect copie of that Councell remained with them which Cecilianus Bishop of Carthage which was himselfe present at that Councell had brought into Africke notwithstaÌ„ding they determine to send to Constantinople Alexandria and Antioch such as might receiue the true and naturall copies from the Bishops of those cities The Popes Legates would faine haue stayed them from sending but could not Cyrill Bishop of Alexandria and Atticus of Constantinople deliuer vnto the messengers the copies with letters to the Fathers of Africk wherin they do auouch that those copies were most true and sincere Concil Afâ—â—c Can. 105. Then at length the forgery appeareth in the Canon of the Councell of Nice no such thing can be found so they writ to Celestine then Pope and command him to surcease from making any such claime euer after and not to send abroad his Collectors lest thereby they may seeme to bring the presumptuous smokie pride of the world into the Church of Christ The Pope for the time yeelded not voluntarily but perforce for an hundred yeeres after Boniface the second in an Epistle vnto Eulalius inueigheth bitterly against Aurelius Bishop of Carthage which was now President of the African Councell and affirmeth that hee and his fellowes whereof Augustine was the chiefe were all moued by the deuill to withstand the Church of Rome thus Pope Boniface censureth as schismatikes Aurelius of Carthage other the African Bishops yea and Augustine himselfe among the rest because they resisted the Bishop of Rome in that matter as for Eulalius then Bishop of Carthage he giueth him great thankes because he made friendship with the Church of Rome that is he willingly permitted the immediate power of the Bishop of Rome ouer the Church of Africke These things I haue related out of their truest records and of this kind I could rehearse many more so little cause haue you to promise your selfe much helpe out of Historie Hence may bee perceiued what the purpose and endeuour of the Bishops of Rome haue bin these many yeares viz. to make themselues Lords of all Churches which also at length they obtained But because you aske the question and desire answere when Rome lost her faith so much commended and what that which once was ceased to be I may truly affirme that though in many things she had made shipwracke of faith before yet theÌ„ did it begin to be the seate of Antichrist when Phocas the murderer granted vnto Boniface the third that the Church of Rome should be head of all Churches and the Bishop of Rome should be called Vniuersall Bishop I will not too curiously search into the moments of times a mischiefe creepeth priuily for a time vnespied of men But the common opinion which men conceiued of those times was that Gregory the great was the last good and the first ill Bishop of Rome He was no better then he should be and all that succeeded him were starke nought euery one striuing to goe beyond his predecessor in all lewdnes so that now a sincke of all wickednes hath violently burst into the Church and hath possessed all the parts therof You force me Campian to open the sores of your Church which I had rather not touch but you are so vnreasonable that you neither spare vs nor your selues Barnard who was the only religious man your Church had for many yeares how often and how grieuously doth he bewaile the most desperat estace of your Church g DVR Bernard speaketh not of the doctrine of the Church but of the manners of the vvicked and in the Church the euill men were euer mixed among the good WHIT. pag. 504. I wonder vvhat was in your mind when you confesse that the manners of your predecessors were such as he describeth both heere and ad Eugen. lib. 4. Amongst these you being their Pastor vvalke decked vvith much pretious apparell If I durst speaze it these are rather paâ—â—ors for diuels then for Christs sheepe Your Court vsually receiueth good men but maketh sevv good There the vvicked are not made better but the good farre worse A number of such places I could alledge out of him neither bewailâ—th lâ—ethe mixture of the bad as you say but the perishing of the good and the ruâ—ne of the Church A shamefull contagion spreaâ—â—â—h ouer the body of the whole Church Bernard in Cant. Ser. 33 De conuer Pauli the seruants of Christ serue Antichrist From the sole of the foote to the crowne of the head nothing is sound With these and the like speeches vsed Bernard to bewaile and complaine of the intolerable wickednes of your Church which he would neuer haue done without sufficient reason mouing thereunto Aeneas Syluius ad Casparem Schlik Aeneas Syluius afterwards Pope writeth that charity was waxed cold and faith vtterly gone and what manner of Church shall we iudge this to haue been when shee had lost both faith and charity But it may be you will say that he wrote this of malice vnto the Church and that after hee changing his opinion when of Aeneas he was made Pius for that was euer his vsuall speech Cast
satisfied Nay but you proceed still vnto the ages that succeeded Then when Clemens gouerned the Church then also when the Heathen Emperours massacred the Bishops of Rome Euen then I confesse Rome was an excellent Church of Christ Will this content you Nay further you say Then also when Damasus Siricius Anastasius Innocentius executed the Apostolike function This is not to discend by degrees but to leape for you hasten too fast from the forenamed to these But how will you perswade vs to yeeld you thus much Because Caluin as you say frankly confesseth Iâ—st lib. 4. cap. 2. sâ—ct 3 Epist ad Sadâ—l that as yet they had not digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell Doe not you Campian catch hold of that which no man will giue you nor be too confident of others liberalitie Caluin doth not grant that which you take for granted therefore you must redeliuer it Caluin in that place answereth to your ouerworne argument of succession and she weth that the purpose of the Fathers when they alleaged the succession of Bishops was not to proue those to be true Churches where Bishops succeeded one another but this first they assumed as most certaine that from the beginning of the Church vnto the ages whereof they speake there was no alteration in religion and thus they opposed to the new broched errors that doctrine which from the times of the Apostles was still preserued in the Church Caluin then saith not that they had k DVR Do you acknowledge it to bee the Church of Christ vvhich swarueth and strayeth from the Apostles doctrine vvhat can be spâ—ken more absurdly WHIT. pag. 513. You that obiect absurditie to others are most absurde your selfe for vvâ—â— not the Church of the lewes euen then when it abounded with many errors the Church of God The Corinthians and Galathians when they had many waies declined from the doctrine of the Gospell yet S. Paul saluted them 〈◊〉 Churches 1 Cor. 1.2 Gal. 1.2 which he would not haue done if he had not acknowledged them to be Churches for all their errors altered nothing in any point of faith but that the Fathers vsed this argument of succession onely in those cases wherein it might appeare they had innouated and altered nothing Wherefore as we grant that the Church of Rome in the time of these Bishops was the true Church of Christ but that they in nothing digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell that Caluin neuer confessed and wee constantly denie To say nothing of the rest Thus l DVR This error is common to you and many of your felloâ—es for Syricius vvas not the first vve haâ—e a direct Canon of the Councell of Carthage vvhich numbreth this among the Apostolike trâ—ditions Carthag 1. Can. 2. so hath Clemenâ— it in his Epistle to S. Iames the Lords brother Amongest the Grecians the custome of the Priests waâ— not to keepe their wiues as wiues which they bad before their Priest-bood Epiphan hâ—â—rel 59. And Hierome against Viâ—ilantius vigeth this auncient custome of the Church WHIT. pag. 514. But your Gratian writeth that Syritius was the first maker of this impious law The which many Priests before him of their owne acccrd embraced single life yet none was compelled by law against his will and as for the Councell of Carthage it was held in the time of this Syricius And so not before him for your Clemeâ—s you knovv hee is of no vvorth but a meere counterfeite That you report of the Grecians is incredible vvhen as in the Councell of Nice Paphuntius hindred this lavv neither vvould the Grecians euer endure this snare Hierome indeed produceth an old custome but no Apostolike nor yet perpetuall custome Syricius swarued from the doctrine of the Gospell when he intangled the Ministers of the word with the snares of inforced continencie and this doubtlesse was no small digression but a plaine departing froÌ„ the m DVR VVhat Catholike euer said that marriage was euill S. Paul teacheth vs to take beedo of the Manichies and Gnostikes and other heretikes of that sort WHIT. pag. 516. To your question my ansvvere is easie your Syricius and Innocent vvhen they feared Ministers from marriage vsed those reasons vvhich either condemned marriages simplie or els they conclude nothing For vvhen they thus reason Priests may not marrie because they must be the temple and the vessell of the Lord and the Chappell of the holy Ghost therefore they ought not to giue themselues to chambering and vncleannes because they ought to be holy because they shall bee polluted vvith carnall concupiscence and to the vncleane all things are vncleane because they vvho are in the flesh cannot please God What I pray you is this else but to affirme that marriages are euill impure and vvicked Make these then no Catholikes or else your question is ansvvered To tye S. Paul to those auncient heretikes only is absurde as if he deliuered not a perpetuall doctrine for all times yea and he hath taxed not those only vvho condemne marriage but vvho forbid them vvhich cannot be denied but your Pope and Church doth Apostolike doctrine 1. Tim. 4.3 Heb. 13.4 Now at length you make a stay and pursue the histories of the Church no further only you demaund when Rome ceased to be as formerly it had bin vnto which question we haue sufficiently answered If you make doubt whether it now bee the same it was you may also if you list doubt whether the sunne shine at noone For this is as cleere and without question as that the present citie of Rome is become vnlike the auncient flourishing Romans common wealth And as hee could not find Samnius in Samnius and the other of whom the Epigram speaketh wittily who found nought of Rome in the middest of Rome So if you would now in the present n DVR VVhat impudencie is this there vvas neuer heresie that assaulted this Church of vvhich it caried not the victorie As ouer the Donatists Iouinian Pelagius the Britaine and others WHIT. pag. 521. I contempe your reproches and stand to that I haue saide The Church of Rome vvhich once flourished is novv so oppressed vvith Antichrist that besides the outvvard face image countenance of a Church a vaine pompe there is nothing else left in it There is no vvord but it is corrupted vvith pestiferous leaued no Sacrament but polluted vvith sacriledge and corruption no discipline but Antichristian I passe not for your Popes chaire your Colledge of Cardinals the glorie of your Bishops your Priests Monkes Temples riches nothing moue me I search for a liuing Church not bare walles for a man not a picture for a body not a shadow as for your criumphes you boast of they are no more proper to the true Church then the triumphes of old Rome ouer Pyrrhus Anniball Perses Antiochus are to be esteemed the triumphes of Rome novv being Finally as for Pelagius he triumphed ouer the whole Popish kingdome For
great a good that the Apostle Peter what time he would not haue had it done is termed Satan by him who was willing to be slaine And elsewhere God saith he hardened Pharao by iust iudgement De Grat. lib. arbit cap. 23. and Pharao hardened himselfe by his owne free will And that you may plainely perceiue there is nothing taught by vs touching the will of God but that which the Church of Christ long since hath taught I will annexe some other sentences which the same Augustine hath written in another place Great are saith he the works of the Lord distinguished into all his wils Enchirid. ad Laurent cap. 100. so as after a wonderfull and vnutterable manner that is not done without his will which also is not done against his will because it should not be done if he did not suffer it neither certainely doth he suffer it vnwilling but willing And againe God worketh in the hearts of men to incline their wils whither so euer hee will De Grat. lib. arbit ca. 21. whether to good according to his mercie or vnto euill according to their merits And that certainely in his iudgement sometime open sometime secret but alwaies iust I can vse infinite testimonies in this matter but I thinke not very needfull I will raise vp out of your owne schoole Hugo de Sancto victore who shall most clearely approue our opinion with his owne words For thus he writeth De Sacra part 2. c. 14. His will is neuer idle so as that is not done which he willeth neither in a word can any thing bee done at any time which hee willeth not And a little after Cap. 15. The will of God is euer fulfilled and wicked men are not therefore excused because the will of God is performed in them and by them for that they are not directed by their owne will to fulfill the will of God but by his secret prouidence Doe you perceiue at length Campian that no new paradoxe is defended in our Churches which was not both receiued in times past in the Churches of Christ and is also defended as the truth it selfe For that which you adde As the calling of Paul so also Dauids adulterie and Iudas his treacherie were the proper worke of God from whence you drew these positions I know not These works of God not one of our writers doe so compare together as that wee should say that God wrought alike in Dauid and Iudas to the committing of hainous offences as he did in Paul for his effectuall conuersion Indeed the Lord wrought both in this and in them but not after one and the like manner he did inspire inwardly the heart of Paul by his spirit and endued his minde with true faith which he lacked before but to Dauid and Iudas hee did cast in no new kinde of impietie or inclination of will nor did hee stirre vp new motions vnto sinning God forbid that any ChristiaÌ„ should so much as thinke it but they running of their owne accord and stirred vp by and of themselues be did so hold and bend that they vnwitting to themselues and not imagining any such thing did execute Gods decree For by this adulterie of Dauid the Lord did both chastice Dauid in that he did punish sinne with sinne as hee is wont and also hee made a way open for his purposes in time succeeding Like hereunto is that of Absalom he defiled Dauids Concubines 2. Sam. 17.22 the hâ—inousnes of which offence cannot bee vttered yet this way the Lord had decreed to take punishment of Dauid But the treacherie of Iudas if you respect the couetousnes and perfidiousnes of the man did so displease God that neuer any thing did offend him more and yet the Lord vsed both Iudas treacherie and the Priests crueltie for the finishing of that worke of our sâ—luation and he would haue these wretched instruments to effect that diuine worke Therefore the Apostles doe testifie that all these did nothing else but those things which the hand and counsaile of the Lord did decree to bee done Act. 4.28 And yet there is not here any monstrous thing wherof either Philip Melanchton or any other ought to bee ashamed vnlesse perhaps the holy doctrine of the Scripture seeme monstrous to you As for that that you demaund with what minde Luther did take away this verse from the Church prayers O holy Trinitie one God haue mercie vpon vs certeinly you are too suspitious If Luther did think erroneously touching the Trinitie conuince him his bookes are in mens hands and they are read by you as it seemeth very diligently Alleage if you can any one word iniurious either to the Trinitie or Vnitie For if out of all his writings which are innumerable you can draw no probable inkling of this suspition why doe you make question about one verse taken away from the Church prayers which whether it bee taken away or no I know not and though it bee taken away yet how appeares it that it was taken away by him But Luthers condition is very hard who must stand vnto both what hee hath written and what hee hath not written And these are those our paradoxes concerning God which you could carpe at in the bookes of all our writers which haue come foorth in a manner infinitely The matter is safe and sound the aduersarie hath viewed ouer all of them and yet hath found nothing By and by you proceede to the person of Christ Of Christ. and you demand what these words of Caluin meane Christ iâ— the sonne of God God of God God of himselfe What reprooue you here Campian what that hee said Christ is the Sonne of God or for that hee termed him God of God or else that he affirmeth him to be God of himselfe But which of these assertions is it that is not holy not granted not agreeable to the Catholike faith which if you deny you doe not conuince any Paradox of ours but you bewray your owne heresie But this is the point vnlesse I be deceiued wherin you haue found I know not what knot as it were in a rush The Nicene Fathers doe professe Christ to bee God of God to the end they may teach that the Son is of the same substance with the Father This saying some afterward catcht at so as that they did maintaine that Christ is not God by himselfe and of himselfe but that hee receiued it of his Father wherein they quite tooke away the Diuinity of Christ For vnlesse he be God of himselfe he cannot be God at all For that hee may be God hee must needs be God of himselfe Wherefore howsoeuer those Fathers did say that Christ is God of God yes Calain maintaineth that it is most firmely to be beleeued that Christ hath this to be God of himself vnlesse we will rob Christ of his Diuinity To be the Sonne he receiued that indeed of the Father for he is the Son
but that he might vvith more liuely sense of his brethrens miserie humble himselfe to God as for John Baptists coÌ„tinuall diet it vvas locusts and vvild hony nothing like your fasting It is meere dorage and superstation to call abstinence only from some delicate meates fasting though other as delicate be eaten as you doe no Prophets nor auncient Christians in the Church euer fasted thus froÌ„ flesh may at his pleasure glut himselfe with all maner of dainties Or who can suppose that the Fridayes fast is holier then the Wednesdayes fast but he must too much sauour of Iudaisme If S. Paul reproued the Galathians Gal. 4.10 because they did obserue dayes and y DVR This is an auncient cauill of heretiks long since ansevered by Ierome and Augustine that vve obserue not the same dayes that Ievves and Gentiles did WHIT. pag. 824. The Church in thâ—ir time did not bind mens consciences to the obseruation of daies as you doe and as did the Galathians iudging it necessarie for Christians to fast at your set times which if it had done yet the authoritie of men must not preuaile more than Scripâ—ures moneths and times is it likely he would endure our Papists which erre more grossely and shamefully If he forewarned the Colossians that they would not be intangled with their superstition Colos 2.21 which thought that some certaine meates were not to be z DVR Saint Paul reprooueth there the practise of Ievvish ceremonies WHIT. pag. 8â—6 True and all other like them which are mans ordinances and doctrines as he saith plamely verse 22. of which sort yours are else shew vs Scripture for them touched not to be tasted not to be handled would he allow the papisticall choice of meates If he determined long since 1. Tim. 4.2.3 that it was diuelish and a DVR You sight against vs vvith the Manichees vveapoâ—s vvhom Augustine aâ—svvered against Faust lib. 30. cap. 5. That true Christians abstaine from certaine meates and fruites more or lesse as they please and are able to tame the bodie and humble the soule against sinne not as though thâ—se creatures vvere vncâ—â—â—e WHIT. pag. 817. Thus you make Saint Paul a Manichee but indeed he there condemneth them and all that forbid to cate meates vnder paine of damnation which you doe and that place of Augustine plainely sheweth how your fasts differ from the Christian fasts in his time first they were to tame and humble men yours doe not so secondly they thought no meates vncleane you say men are polluted by eating some forbidden thirdly they abstained from sith and fruites as from flesh in their fasts you doe not so fourthly they fasted as they thought good and could but you make generall lawes of fastings to binde men thereto hypocriticall to absteine from certaine meates if he were now liuing would he change his doctrine and command this abstinence to a Christian We truely for our parts do alwayes and very highly commend a true fast whether it be priuate or publike neither do we commend them only but also we vse them as this yeare last past may most plentifullie witnesse for vs during which publike fasts were most religiously obserued in very many places As for those fasts of Moses and Dauid Helias and Iohn Baptist and the Apostles wherein were they any whit like vnto yours for if fasting do consist in choyce of meates and in appointing set dayes as you resolutely iudge it doth informe me if you can that they either at any time b DVR The auncient obseruation of Lent of VVednesday and Fridates fast and of the Ember daies might haue informed you hereof WHIT. p. 828. 829. You play the Sophister here in graine for Moses Elias Dauid â—ohn Baptist and the Apostles nouerkept those fasts neither did they nor any of the auncient Fathers preferre fish before flesh in theirâ— fastings as you doe DVR Aeriuâ— vvas counted an heretike vvho taught the same doctrine of fasting vvhich you do Epiphan haerel 75. WHIT. pag. 829. 830. The auncient Church disliked Euslathius his eagernes against Aerius in this point as witnesseth Socrates l. 2. c. 43. Sozomen l. 3. c. 13. Aerius might be an Arrian and so an heretike but of fasting he taught the same with Augustine Epist. 86. that there were no certaine times of fasting appointed by the Apostles Tertullian contra Psychicoâ— witnesseth that in the auncient ChristiaÌ„ church meÌ„ vsed to fast voluÌ„tarily freely not by CanoÌ„ or precept Epiphanius defeÌ„ded Eustathius against the churches iudgmeÌ„t in this point touching Aerius preferred fish before flesh or vsed inioyned and yearely set fasts For Iohn Baptist vsed continually to fast in his manner and the others fasted as the times and present occasions required in which their fasts they absteined as well from fish as from flesh Therefore in one word to wipe away your imputation of Homonymie I denie that we vse any For in that that we require the spirituall fast we dislike not the externall 〈◊〉 Tim. 4.8 howsoeuer this outward fast be nothing profitable without the spirituall But this deceitfull argumentation if there were any such here is rather by inferring a weake consequeÌ„t then by Homonymie or equiuocation how beit what the truth is we haue sufficiently ciscussed You haste forward and ioyne vnto these a fourth manner of deceiptfull disputation Circulatio named Circulation which is when one after a few words to no purpose returneth againe to the same and beggeth the question I acknowledge it to be a grosse and vnsauorie kind of sophistry so to do but shew me an example of our so doing You propound one example namely about the true notes of the Church for heere you say we alwayes make circuits and rounds and vse that very same thing for an argument wherein the question lieth But how prooue you that forsooth because we say the notes of the Church be the word of God and the Sacraments And so we say truly for they who haue these haue a Church of Christ but they who altogether want these are vtterly without both the Church and Christ Let vs contend about these notes that it may be discerned whether you or we haue them Tell me in what Court shall we try this title before what Commissioner before what Iudge shall we commence our plea I suppose the word of God must be consulted with But you say you haue alreadie consulted with it and you now fauour our cause lesse then you did before But I say Campian we rest vpon the word of God and not on your iudgement Yea but say you prooue vnto me that this is the word of God nay it were more meete that you should proue it is not And I also require of you that you will do the same thing which you commaund me to do namely that you will proue your word and Sacraments to be the very same which Christ hath commended vnto his Church Wherefore this
all the c Hiero. in cat script saincts of heauen that through their pure and vertuous conuersation vpon the earth gaue a rare example vnto all sorts of men Thou shalt finde that they both liued here and died members of our Catholick Church And that we may take a tast of some few by name d In Epist. ad Smyr on our side was Ignatius that so earnestly thirsted after martyrdome who in ecclesiasticall matters aduanced a * And we in those thingâ— which are proper to a Bishop make none equall to a Bishop Bishop euen aboue a King who penned also certaine traditions of the Apostles whereof he himselfe was a witnesse least they should be quite forgotten e Euseb lib. 3. cap. 30. Dam. in vit Telesp To. 1. con c. stat d. 5. On our side was that Anchorete Telesphorus who commanded that the fast of Lent which was before instituted by the Apostles shouldbe kept more strictlie On our side was S. Ireneus f Lib. 3. c. 3. who proued that the Apostolike faith descended vnto vs by the succession and sea of Rome On our side also was that high Bishop g Euseb 5. hist. 24. Victor who by a generall Proclamation * This is false for he could not subdue it kept the whole Countrie of Asia in due obedience which Proclamation though to some it seemed somewhat hard but specially vnto this most blessed man S. Ireneus no man yet attempted to deface as * This is false for many Bishops haue bitterly inueyed against Victor for this cause forraigne authoritie Polycarpus h Euseb 4. hist 14. Suidas was on our side that about the question of the keeping of Easter day went and conferred with the sea of Rome whose reliques after he was burned the faithfull Christians at Smyrna gathered together and gaue due honor vnto their Bishop by obseruing yearely the day of his death as an high and solemne feast On our side were i Euseb 7. Hist 2. S. Cornelius and S. Cyprian those golden paire of Martyrs which were both very worthy Prelates but the former was the greater who when he was Bishop of Rome abolished the Affrican errors The latter also got great commendations through his loyall obedience which he shewed to his superior and dearest friend he had in the world On our side was Sixtus who when he song Masse at the Altar was solemnely serued with seauen men of the Cleargie On our side was S. Laurence this mans Archdeacon whom the aduersaries cancell out of their Calenders To whom k Prud. in Hym. de S. Laur. vi Aug. ser de S. I aur Ambros lib. 1. off cap. 4. lib. 2. off 28. Leo serm in die S. Laur. Prudentius a man that had been Consull in Rome about 1200. yeares ago prayed in this wise O most glorious seruant of Christ what power is giuen thee and what authoritie is graunted vnto thee in heauen the great ioy of the Romanes doe sufficiently shew vpon the obteining of such requests as they make vnto thee Amongst the which number I beseech thee mercifullie giue eare to me thy rude Poet that doth confesse vnto thee my sinfull thoughts also disclose my wicked actions heare benignly I pray thee me thy humble suppliant Prudentius that hath highly offended Christ my Sauiour On our side l Metaph. Ambros ser 90. tom 3. lib. 1. de Virg. Ado. Tae in martyr Euseb 8. Hist 27. were those most blessed virgins S. Cecilia S. Agatha S. Anastasia S. Barbara S. Agnes S. Lucia S. Dorethy and S. Katherine who constantly kept their vowed chastitie against the tyrannie both of men and diuels S. Helen was on our side who was most famous for the finding of the crosse of Christ S. Monocha the mother of S. Augustine was on our side who when she lay on her death-bed most deuoutlie desired to be praid for after her death Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 8. Ex Aug. lib. 9. con cap. 7. vsque ad 1â— Hieroâ— in Epist Paul Hieroâ— in cap. Semp. Athanas Ambros in orat fut de Satyro Ioan. Diacon Seu. Sâ—lp Metaph. Grae. lib. 2. Dial. and to haue the * This was not the sacrifice of the Masse reade the answere sacrifice of the masse offred for her at Christs altar S. Paula was on our side who forsaking her faire pallace situated within the citie of Rome and her goodly farmes abroade in the Countrie went on pilgrimage by long iourneys euen vnto to the caue of Bethelem where Christ lay crying in his cradle there in solitarinesse to spend the residue of her time On our side was S. Paulus S. Hilarion S. Antony who liued in solitarinesse till they were old men On our side was Satyrus that was brother germain vnto S. Ambrose who carrying about him in a stole that dreadfull hoast and being in present danger of shipwrack hoping assuredlie that he would protect him lept into the raging sea and sâ—ome to land On our side were S. Nicholas and S. Martin who were both Bishops much exercised in watchings cloathed altogether in haire-cloth and fed with fasting On our side was S. Benet who was father vnto a great number of Monks Ten yeares were not long ynough for me to recite this infinite number of Saints neither do I heere make mention of them whom before I placed among the Doctors of the Church I do not forget my promise that I would passe ouer things as briefly as I could conuenientlie let him that would know more hereof peruse not only the large histories of auncient writers but also much more rather the graue authors which haue almost euery one of them written speciall bookes of the liues of the Saincts for a remembrance to their posteritie * And you of al those name me one Iesuit then let him tell me what his opinion is of those most auncient Christians Vide. 12. tom Surij and most blessed of whether religion were they of the Catholikes religion or of the Lutherans religion * After this manner Campian vseth to dispute I call to witnes the throne of God and that his tribunall seate before which I shall stand to render an accompt of these my ten reasons and of my said act in making my challenge that either there is no heauen at all which I and my adherents do detest or that it belongeth properlie to such only as are of our religion which thing we for our parts hold for sound doctrine Now on the contrary side if you thinke good let vs looke downe into hell Damnati where lye some burning in euerlasting fire Who the Iewes what Church are they against ours Who else the heathen What Church haue they most cruellie persecuted ours who besides these the Turks What Churches haue the pulled downe ours who yet the hereticks to what Church were they enemies to ours * The Catholike Church of which your Church is no part Forwhat Church I pray you hath
alwaies withstood the gates of hell Matth. 16. Judai Eusch 4. Hist. 5. Hieron in Epist ad Paul in Epist â—â—d Marcel passim in Epist but ours When after the expulsion of the Iewes vnder Vespatian and Titus his sonne Christians increased at Hierusalem O immortall God what comming of good people was there to the holie places that were there What wonderfull deuotion was there among all sorts of people to see that Citie of Hierusalem What zeale to see Christs Sepulcher what desire to see the manger wherein Christ lay what thursting after the sight of the crosse whereon Christ was nailed what longing to behold all sorts of monuments there in which the holie Church taketh as much delight as doth a spouse in the garments laid off by her husband Vpon this began that mortall hatred and implacable of the Iewes against vs for euen at this day they * But they complaine without cause for they haue no reason why they should be angrie with our ancestors complaine that our Ancestors were the cause of their Ancestors ouerthrow as for Simon Magus and the Lutherans Ethnici they receiued neuer ablow at their hands Among the heathen there were many tyrants who during their raigne for the space of 300. yeares by fits at diuers times inuented most bitter torments against Christians Against what manner of Christians I pray you Leo serm de D. Laurent Truly against the Fathers of our faith and their Children Marke well with your selues the speeches of this tirant that broiled S. LaureÌ„ce on a Gridyron It now well appeares Prud. in hym de S. Laur. that this is the order and fashion in your sacrifice This doctrine you all agree to that Bishops must offer vp their sacrifice in plate of gold and the people say that the sacred blood smoketh out of your cups of siluer and that ye haue tapers burning on golden candlesticks during all the time of your night sacrifices Also as common fame doth testifie your brethren haue a speciall care to offer vp thousands of pounds though they sell their lands to get the same the lawfull heire being thus disinherited and brought to beggery though his holie parents greatly complaineth for such shamefull sale of lands as should by right discend to him from his grandfathers This wealth lieth hid in some secret corners of your Churches and you thinke it a great godlie deed to make your sweet babes goe naked fetch out these treasures which thou hoordest vp by thy craftie perswasions and wicked witchcraft the which I say thou haddest in one darke hole or other the commonweale the Kings Eschecker and the common treasure haue need thereof That mony being imployed for souldiers wages the generall lieutenant may be fully fraughted with souldiers I vnderstand that this is an vsuall doctrine amongst you Restore to euery man his owne behold the Emperour acknowledgeth his owne physnomie stamped vpon his owne coine Giue to Caesar that which thou knowest to be Caesars Truly I demaund nothing but that which is iust Thy God except I be deceiued cometh no money neither brought he with him at his comming into the earth any golden gilderds but ministred his commandements by word of mouth being purslesse himselfe Performe faith fullie that his doctrine which you openly preach abroad restore your money willingly content your selfe to be rich in words * Campian demonstrates his Church by the wealth and riches of it A note of the Popish Church What manner of man seemeth this to be against whom doth he thus rage Whose Churches sacrifices lights ceremonies and ornaments hath he gone about to abolish What Churches golden goblets and chalices of siluer and costlie gifts and rich stuffe enuied he at This man vndoubtedly doth hold on Luthers part Gen. 10. For what other colour haue our mighty * The Pope of Rome is that Nimrod the mighty hunter of the Church Nimrods pretended to couer their theft withall when they robbed 1441 0536 V 3 Gods houses and made hanock of Christs inheritance On the coÌ„trary part what Church was it that Constantine the great the very terror of Christs enemies hath brought to quietnes euen that selfe-same Church ouer which the high 〈◊〉 Bishop Siluester was gouernour Dam. in Syl. Zonaras whom the said Emperour called out of the mount Soract where he lay secretly for feare of persecution that by the helpe of the said Siluester he might be * This is false for Siluester was dead many yeares before Constantine was baptised baptised with our Baptisme vnder what banner fought he that he became so great a coÌ„queror euen vnder the banner of the n Euseb lib. 2. de vita Con. c. 7 8.9 â—ozom lib. 1. cap. 9. Crosse who was his mother that he attained â—o so great honor euen that blessed woman Saim Helen what fathers took he part with with the Fathers for sooth of the Nicene Councell what manner of men were they namely they were S. Siuester S. Iulius S. Athanasius S. Nicholas to whose prayers did he commend himselfe to the prayers of o Athan. in vita S. Aut. S. Antony what roome exacted he in the Councell * This is false for it was the chiefest and of beaten gold the very lowest of all Oh how much more Prince-like was he when he sate in this seate then they that since that time ambitionsly haue made sale for a lâ—ttle that is far vnfit for a King It were too long to declare euery matter in particular but by these two Emperors wherof the one was our deadly enemie the other was our most faith full friend one may easilie coniecture of euery other circumstance which are like to these afore spoken of For as vnder the Tyrant our Catholike Christians had a trouble some encrease so vnder this Emperor through Gods great mercie they were brought to a most happie end Let vs looke a little into the Turkes affaires * It is manifest that the Turkes haue no lesse in creased by the helpe of the Pope then by their ovvne strength Mahomet and Sergius the Monke that fell from his religion by howling in the deepe pit of hell oppressed both with their owne sinnes and the sinnes of their posteritie This monstrous and outragious beast Vide Volat. Jouium Aemil. lib. 8 Blond lib. 9. de 1. I meane the Saracens and Turkes if they had not bin quailed and driuen backe heretofore by the orders of Knights in our holy warfare and by the Princes and people that take our part as for Luther * Hee hath good cause to be thankfull to the Pope of Rome to whom it is reported that Solyman the great Turke for this cause gaue great thankes by his letters yea and as for the Lutheran Princes to whom the fortunate successe of the Turkes is but a laughing matter as for them I say this â—aging furie and most mischieuous to mortallmen had before this time destroyed and
Isay 19.21 Icrem 31.31 Ezeâ— 37.26 WHIT. pag. 264. As if the Church of Hierusalem was not the Church of Christ what then happened vnto it which may not befall my others And for the Prophesies you recier they belong to the company of the elect and not to your popish Church to which the Lord neuer promised any such thing Christ verily will neuer endure that his Church should be abolished or perish but it is one thing for it to perish and another to lye hid for a time and not to bee seene he hath promised it shall euer be preserued not that it shall euer be visible and glorious DVR Christ hath promised to be with his Church to the end of the world WHIT. pag. 265. Will it therefore follow that his Church shall neuer be hid nor shut vp in a few nothing lesse for hee hath promised that wheresoeuer two or three are gathered together in his name he will be in the middest of them Church of Hierusalem that though it had and by continued succession inioyed the name of the Church yet in very truth it was nothing else but a caue and denne of theeues I see not what the Church of Rome can challenge to it selfe why it may not be said long agot to haue lost the body of the Church though it keepe still the visard the name and the vestments of the Church What if the Romish Church condemned Luther shall we say therefore Luther is an heretike and that it is the Catholike Church The Church of Ierusalem condemned Christ and him and his they would haue denied to be the true Church if by any colour they could that they might free themselues out of those straights they were brought into But happily they will say there is no such thing to be found in Christs new Church 2. Thess 2. But S. Paul prophesieth of an Apostasie that should be before Christs comming to iudgement i DVR The Fathers haue vnderstood the place of Antichrist or of a defection from the Romane Empire WHIT. pag. 268. Nay Cyrill of Hierusalem a man you much esteeme Catech 11. doth interpret it of an Apostasie from the true faith so doth Chrysostome Oecumenius so many others Yea your Diuines of Rhemes haue so expounded it which Apostafie is from religion and the Church as the most auncienâ— Fathers do vnderstand it and Christ prophesied euidently of the small number of his Luke 18.8 When the Soune of man shall come shall he find k DVR Augustine de vultat Ecclesiae cap. 13. saith VVE vnderstand this speech either for the perfection of faith or for the multitude of the wicked or for the small number of the good So doth Hierome contr Luciferanoâ— WHIT. pag. 270. What if these Fathers mistooke the place must we rest in their exposition we haue Nazianzene cont Arran Theophyla in 28. Luc. Caietan vpon this place against them nay further when Augustine writeth that there is signified the multitude of the wicked and the small number of the good doth he not defend our opinion that the number of the wicked shall be great but of the godly small faith on the earth If hardly any faith shal remaine on the earth and the Church cannot be said to be a Church but improperly without faith it followeth necessarily that when Christ commeth their number shall be very small who may truly be called the Church You haue now those Scriptures which do thus paint out the Church vnto vs vnlesse you thinke your selfe better able to puttray it then the holy Ghost himselfe could do who hath set out the Church in farre better colours and manner then I find yours to be in which there is nothing left but painted walles But say you there are Epistles of Christ written to the seauen Churches which were in Asia there are also diuers Epistles which were written by S. Peter S. Paul S. Iohn and by others vnto sundrie Churches in the Acts of the Apostles wee find mention made of manie Churches begun and enlarged What then Campian what think you may be inferred hereupon These were not knowne to God only but also to all Christians who euer denied that These same Churches of Asia to whom Christ sent Epistles and the Churches of the Corinthians Philippians Thessalonians Colossians to which Paul writ were particular visible Churches Did we euer seeme to make question whether a Church might be visible or no we verily call all those visible and apparant Churches which professe the pure word of God and hold those rights and Sacraments which are commaunded by Christ And so at this day by the blessing of God there are many visible Churches in England Scotland Germanie Fraunce and other parts of Christendome though it greeue you Iesuits they should be so visible and apparant But what kind of reasoning is this l DVR All particular Churches on which the Catholike Church consisteth as on parts are visible therefore the Catholike Church it selfe is visible WHIT. pag. 272. All particular Churches which make the Catholike are not visible because it consisteth not of the Churches of this time only but of Churches of the times past and of those which shall be in the time to come But say it were compact and made of the Churches of this time only yet it followeth not that it must be visible nay so long 〈…〉 particulars are visible it cannot for when all the parts are growen into oâ—â— then is the whole visible but not each seuerall part so when the seuerall parts may be seene the whole caÌ„not be seen because the parts are noâ—â—ow become one So the coÌ„trary to your collection will follow that because the parts are visible the whole cannot be seene Those Churches to whom Christ and his Apostles writ were visible therefore the Catholike Church is euer visible Haue you learned such Logicke as this at Rome in your famous schoolts of Iesuits or doe you Campian thinke that these manner of Allegations should goe for proofes in the eares of our Vniuersity men but where are those Churches now which were then so flourishing Shew me the Church of Ephesus Smyrna Pergamus Corinthes and the rest Now they are no where to be seene and are no loÌ„ger Churches And that which we haue seen already befal those Churches teach vs I pray you how it may not also betide the Church of Rome And though Rome become a heap yet the Church shall be safe neither shal the downfall of any citie or Empire euer be able to abolish it And at this day there are many flourishing Churches which are equall to your falsly called Catholike Church for the number vndoubtedly are far better for the truth they hold But you say That for 1500. yeares we could not spie out one towne one village one house seasoned with our doctrine Nay Campian that is very false m DVR The Arrians Mâ—â—cedonians and all other auncient heretikes may by the same probability say as much