Learned Protestants But on the contrary I have been so far from repenting that I turned so Young that the more I read or discoursed of these matters the more I discerned the Excellence of the Catholic Religion on the one hand and the blindness of so many of my fellow Creatures on the other and consequently I had no other causes for grief than first that my Conversion was no sooner and next that I had not yet been grateful enough that it was so soon The Doctor says that * Pag. 5. no Man who well understands their Church departs from it upon true Principles And I am much mistaken if there be not very many who know well enough what the Church of England Teaches and yet depart from her on no other principles than those which they learnt from her self viz. That the Church is to be followed no farther than she agrees with Scripture and every particular Man is left to judge how far she agrees with it It would be tedious and unnecessary to set down here all those Principles or Motives upon which I departed from the Church of England since I cannot so much pretend to extraordinary things as to deny but that they are the same which have led others from her both before and since and may be seen at large in many Books However if my Readers will give me leave I will lay before them some of those Points which began my doubts and prevail'd more particularly with me * Some Motives of my Conversion to the Catholic Faith. First I had been taught that the Church of Christ continued pure for the first Five Hundred Years after it's Institution and that from thence downwards several gross Errors and Corruptions had crept into it and that it had been infected with these Plagues for about a Thousand Years And that then Almighty â—od out of his Infinite Commiseration enlightned Martin Luther Zuinglius and other as I thought Pious Men so far as that they clearly discern'd these Corruptions Preach'd against them and by that means rescued a great number of Christians from that darkness which the Gates of Hell contrary to our Lords promise or some unaccountable Fatality had engaged them in And Lastly that I my self had been so happy as to be one of this number This was that Idea of Christianity which I then had For as to what they talk'd of a constant Succession of Protestants from the fifth Age down to our times I had never heard it from any Wise Man nor indeed can such an Imposture find place with any one who is so much an Historian as the common Discourse will make him Every body knows that the first Reformers when they left the Roman Church joyned with no other Society or Sect of Christians then in the World either in Communion or Doctrin which must have been done had this pretended Succession continued Their pretence was at that time to Reform the whole Church and not to seek out any True one which then had a Being and stood in no need of Reformation Nay they were so far from thinking it necessary to joyn with any former Church in order to the preserving a Succession that they did not unite with one another But parted their stock and each Adventurer set up for himself This then was the most Rational Account that I could give of my Faith viz. That our Church finding that all Christian Churches had been in Error for a Thousand Years forsook that Error and reformed it self according to the pattern of the first Five Hundred Years after Christ For to be of a Christian Church which never had any being from Christs time till this present I thought a most unreasonable thing Now none can write after a Copy without having that Copy which they pretend to Write by I mean it was impossible for the Church of England to Reform it self according to the first Five Hundred Years of Christianity without knowing what those Christians Taught and Practis'd And how could this possibly be done but by the Holy Fathers and other Writers of those times Wherefore I firmly believed as I am persuaded many Thousands do that these Writers were meer strangers to all those Doctrins which we had forsaken and consequently that no mention was made amongst them of Purgatory Prayer for the Dead Invocation of Saints Veneration of Holy Images and Relics the Sacrifice of the Mass the Reality of Christs Flesh in the Eucharist the Decisive Authority of the Church in Controversial matters the Spiritual Supremacy of St. Peter and his Successors with some other things of this nature I say I took it for granted that nothing of all this was to be found in those Primitive Records of the Christian Religion But when I looked into them I found it quite otherwise and that those things which hitherto I had accounted Novelties were as clearly set down in these Writings as any other Points of Christian Doctrin For instances to avoid length I will refer my Readers to a Book not long since Published Entituled Nubes Testium which hath Collections out of some of those Books which then fell into my hands and must weigh with Men of any tolerable moderation notwithstanding that which is or can be said against it Now what was there for me to be done in this condition I had taken it on trust that I was a Member of a Church which had Copied out the first Five Hundred Years but found my Error It was not unknown to me that several Quotations out of the Fathers were produced in the behalf of Protestant Opinions But-to me they all seemed wrested or at least capable of interpretations which were not repugnant to what the same Fathers more plainly and fully speak in other places for a contrary Doctrin In a word what appeared to me in favor of the Catholic Cause was clear full and incapable of any other meaning But that which offered it self in opposition to it was obscure short and interpretable in another sense and indeed for the most part evidently requiring another when joyned to it's antecedents and consequents Others said That the Fathers were Men and had Errors and that they contradicted one another and themselves to boot But this Plea was as little to my satisfaction as the former For this serves only to weaken the Authority of the Fathers and if good evinces nothing but that They are not to be relyed on And then how can the Church of England make out that she follows the first Five Hundred Years when she hath no other means of knowing what was believed in those times but by such Authors as are not to be trusted For what some People say of our being able to know by Scripture what was the Belief and Practice of these Primitive Christians is wholly absurd For we know not from Scripture at least according to the Principles of the Church of England whether the Christians of the first Five Hundred Years lived according to the Scripture
whether it be Christian or not Baptized And we are such stupid Lovers of ease that we are angry at such as endeavor to awaken us out of our Sleep at least till we come to be thoroughly awake and so understand that had it not been for this Charitable Troublesomeness we should have been burnt in our Beds I say this Principle of abiding in that Communion where we once are is more immediately attack'd by Converts than by others and therefore of consequence the Converts are more displeasing to those who have made a shift to lay their Consciences a-sleep upon it And yet how much soever this Principle is belov'd at present it is that which the Protestants if they have any kindness for their Religion have no reason to be fond of since if this Rule had been always observed their Reformation had not been and consequently the World had still continued without any Protestants at all There is yet one remark which offers it self to me concerning this Aspersion which the Doctor is pleased to cast on all Converts viz. That it reflects on me in very good Company But I will not insist on this least the Doctor who confesses he is apt to be * Ep. to his Parishioners Suspicious should have a fresh occasion of suspecting as he did at the Conference that I intend to inform against him However for the future as I told him then I would have him take a little more time to consider before he speaks When the Doctor told me that I had been turn'd in Spain where the People had no Bibles what I replyed was very true viz. that going over in the Company of a public Minister we had the liberty of using what Books we pleased and consequently we carried with us not only Bibles but a great number of other English Books and amongst them many of our best Protestant Controvertists And I farther inform the Doctor that during my forementioned doubts I frequently perused the Writings of those Men and particularly of Chillingworth whom I looked on as the subtilest of them all and the Fountain-head from whence Dr. St. and most others of our Modern Controversie-writers had derived their Notions And before my Conversion to the best of my remembrance I never Read one line in any Roman Catholic Controvertist having always an in-bred aversion to and a fear of being deceived by them unless the Doctor will take the Antient Fathers to be such as indeed he very well may But after all why should the Doctor say that I have forsaken his Church Does a Man leave the House who goes out of one Room into another The Learned Dr. Jackson as he is * Pag. 58. Quoted by the Learned Dr. Tenison says that the Church of England was in the Romish Church before Luthers time and is yet in it Now how have I left the Church of England when both the Church of England and my self are in the same Church London is no farther from Paris than Paris is from London If the Church of England could come so far from the Church of Rome as she hath done by her Reformation without Separating from her as the Doctor seems to * Ibid. affirm may not a Church of England-man go all that way back again without separating from the Church of England If the Denying of Transubstantiation break no Union with those who Hold it how comes the Holding it to dis-unite us from those who Deny it Wherefore the Doctor might have spared his Third Exception against me at this time and first considered whether the matter on which it was grounded were true or not But the Churches of Rome and England must be two distinct Churches when it is for the Doctors turn And One and the same when a contrary purpose requires it That is when my Apostacy is to be proved they are two and when the Doctor 's Succession is to be made out they are but One. It was not without cause that the Antients said Oportet mendacem esse Memorem since it is so very hard for much to be spoken in the Defence of Falshood without the stumbling upon some Contradiction or other It is not impossible but Dr. T. may Answer what is added by his abovesaid Learned Brother viz. that the English Church is in the Church of Rome neither as a Visible Church altogether distinct from it nor any Native Member of it But this to say nothing of the fancifulness of the Notion will not serve for the Doctors excuse For he charges me roundly to have forsaken the Church of England whereas according to this Learned Man he ought to have said that I had not altogether left it but had still at least one foot in it's Communion or some such like Church of England-Oracle which like their Real Presence might have been interpreted either way This is not trifling tho' it may seem so at first sight but a clear Manifestation of what most naturally proceeds from the admirable Harmony of Protestant Doctrins I have now done with the Doctors Preliminary Exceptions But before I pass to any other part of his Account I will do him so much right as to acknowledge that I am verily persuaded that he made these Exceptions not out of much malice towards me or for any great weight he imagined to be in them but meerly to spend the time and amuse the Auditors or it may be to discompose his Antagonists and render them less present to themselves Such Salutations ordinarily speaking being but an ill tuning of the mind for calm and serious Discourses For as I have already hinted if Dr. Tenison had thought it both unreasonable and inconvenient that I should be present at the Conference why had he not accepted of that person whom Mr. P. proposed in my stead or otherwise insisted on it that I should have withdrawn which I assure him had been no less a favor to me than he could think it a convenience to himself Dr. T. says in the beginning of his 6th page Pag. 6. that Mr. P. after his sitting down spake first about Pen and Ink and an Amanuensis but Dr. T. having brought no person with him and the Crowd pressing Mr. P. began a Verbal Conference by saying the Protestants had no Bible desiring Dr. T. to prove they had one and asking him how and whence they had one and what was their Rule of Faith. This looks as if there had been but a slight mention made of having the Arguments taken in Writing and that it was after our sitting down and only by Mr. P. and that Mr. P. without insisting much for it had begun a Verbal Conference Whereas both Mr. P. and my self were very earnest for it and proposed it before our sitting down Nay it was on this proposal of ours that the Doctor invited us to sit down after having first told us that he had no Pen and Ink nor Writer c. According to what I have said above p. 14. Possibly
proved that on the denyal of this Roman Authority as the Doctor calls it Men would have no reason to believe a God it must needs have followed that the Roman Authority was not to be denyed Besides An Arian might have upbraided the Antient Catholics after the same manner and said that so much insisting on the necessity of believing a Trinity would rather make the People Atheists or Vnbelievers than Converts And that the Indifferent would be ready to say content We cannot believe the Trinity and we will have no Deity For Athanasius tells us that it will stand us in little stead to believe a God unless we also believe what is plainly repugnant to our Reason a Trinity of persons in an Vnity of Substance And this Discourse would not have been less conclusive in the Arians Mouth than it was in the Doctors This was the Answer which the Doctor by the Spirit of Prophecy thought not worth the tarrying for and therefore faced about to Mr. P. Which I should not have complained of had it been to have Answered Mr. P's Question But instead of this to shew how sollicitous he was for the Discovery of Truth in so important a Point as a Rule of Faith he * Pag. 6. near the end falls into an insignificant cavil Where I leave him it being too troublesome for me to trace him through all his turnings and windings However what is here said may serve to give the Reader some kind of Notion of them He says p. 14. Mr. M. had some while before asked Pag. 14. Dr. T. who had said that we find the Bible which we now have Quoted by the Antient Fathers how he came to know they were Fathers To which Question he thought an Answer in that place a condescention to an Impertinence The Doctor had been asked upon what Authority or Testimony for the Doctor distinguishes between them he had received his Bible He answered amongst other things that he found his Bible Quoted by the Antient Fathers Now I considered that the Fathers and their works stood in need of some Testimony themselves for their being relyed on And therefore I asked the Doctor how he knew they were Fathers By Fathers I suppose he meant Orthodox Bishops or Doctors of the Church Wherefore the meaning of my Question was how he could prove those whom he accounted Fathers to be Orthodox If he should have said that they had been allowed to be such by all Christians It would have been denyed him there having been and still being several Societies of such as Profess Christianity who assert the contrary And therefore unless the Doctor could give us a mark whereby we might know which sort of Christians are in the right and which in the wrong it would be impossible for us to understand from their Testimony whether the Fathers were Orthodox or not If he should have replyed that these Fathers were approved by our selves That also would have been as little to his purpose For if he looks on our Authority as Good he ought to receive several other things upon it which he does not And if he takes it not to be such he cannot confide in it either for Scripture or Fathers Since here they are not Arguments ad hominem or concerning only the Private difference between us and them but general Arguments which we require of them I mean such as may serve to evidence the certainty of Holy Writ to the whole World. And if the Doctor would have granted that this could have been done by our Authority it may easily be believed that we should have asked no more Lastly If he should have said that he knew those Antient Fathers to be Orthodox no otherwise than by the Conformity which he observed in their Tenets to the Doctrin of the Scriptures which is the Protestant way of proving the Orthodoxness of either particular Men or Churches he would have involved himself in a Circle by proving the Fathers to be true from their agreement with the Scriptures and the Scriptures to be so from the approbation of the Fathers By this time I suppose it sufficiently appears to unbyass'd Readers that Doctor Tenison would have shewed his Learning more by Answering this Question than he has done his Manners by calling it Impertinent Here I cannot but take notice that this Question of mine is inserted in a wrong place to make People believe that I was present to so much of the Conference Whereas I am as certain as my memory can make me that I heard none of those Discourses from the middle of the Doctors 10th Page till towards the latter end of his 17th When the Doctors loud Clamors about the Quotation out of St. Ambrose brought me back from the Window whither I had retired long before viz. before the abovesaid Discourses which begin at the middle of the Tenth Page I say I was present to none of those Discourses between the middle of the Tenth and the latter end of the 17th Page excepting somewhat which is mis-placed viz. Mr P's Reprehension of the School-master for his Wry Mouths c. which was soon after the beginning of the Conference and a little while before I withdrew But the Doctor sets it down in this Pag. 15. place that the People may not imagin that the School-master came so soon to his Assistance as in Truth he did Neither was this Reprehension occasioned as the Doctor would have it by any Discourse concerning the Lateran Council which was not then spoken to but on the School-masters producing a Picture in a Breviary and to shew his Wit laughing at it Which was an action no way pertinent to the matter then in debate And therefore the Doctor to disguise the School-masters intrusion says nothing of the Discourse which happened about the Picture It is unhappy says the Doctor p. 65. that amidst so many things we can have nothing sincere and in it's Naturals The reason of it is because in such occasions the Truth is seldom honorable for both sides And I question not but the Doctor is convinced by this time that he was much in the right when he chose rather to trust his own Memory than his own Amanuensis Concerning what he says p. 14. viz. Mr. M. asked what Writers I do not remember that Question neither did I hear the Discourse of that Paragraph What he said also to me in Derogation of Mr. P. tho' he hath it p. 15. was a long time after But the Doctor is resolved to spread my Controversie through his whole Narrative tho' by this means it be very thin and neither much for my credit nor his It is possible that the Doctor thinks to help it out by putting my Name at length so * Six times in two Pages often as he doth throughout this famous Story whereas the rest of the persons of his Drama excepting only one as I take it have only the first Letter of Theirs However lest the Doctor should design
cannot be perform'd under Ten or Twenty Thousand Pounds worth of Books And even after all it is my opinion that the * â—hat makes all Doctrins plain and clear About two hundred pounds a year Hudib Money will be able to make it out better without the Books than with them The other is by saying according to Dr. Jackson's Notion * See above pag. 41. that the Church of England before the Reformation was in the Church of Rome and then the Proof of this Succession will come very cheap and if you give Six-pence for it it will be more than it is worth Now for such as will not or cannot go to the price of the former which I take to be the Boy 's case it is but reasonable that they should be contented with the latter If the Doctors think that I am somewhat too light on this Occasion they must pardon me for I knew not how to make them agree on better Terms THE APPENDIX VVHil'st these latter Sheets were in the Press Dr. Tenison's new Book entituled Mr. Pulton Considered came forth I cast my Eye on it but having read the Preface I found so many things which requir'd the Black Note that I was afraid to enter farther into the Book lest I should be overwhelm'd with matter and so either tempted to lengthen my own Pamphlet which I would not willingly do or else remain under a kind of vexation by seeing many Fallacies without exposing them when they should seem to lie in my way Wherefore to avoid both these Inconveniences I desir'd a Friend who had read the Book to inform me what there was in it that had any relation to my self that so I might either note or neglect it as I should see cause And as for the rest of this Worthy Piece wherein the Doctor as far as I observed him hath outdone himself in many of those laudable Qualities I have spoken of above I knew that so far as it should be thought necessary it would be under the Examination of a better Artist The Doctor says in his forementioned Preface That he went to this Conference in the simplicity of a Christian as to a private Discourse which says he the Arts of others have improv'd into a public Brawl Whom the Doctor means by others in this place I cannot well tell But I am apt to imagin that They who were conscious either of the Weakness of their Cause before the Conference or of their ill Success in it would not be over-fond of making the thing public For my part I am so charitable as to think there were no Arts used by either Side for this purpose the business was so carried that it could not well be otherwise Nay there were so many Hearers of both Sexes and Five of the Doctor 's Party for One of ours at this Conference that it had been the greatest Art in the World to have kept it secret But for the admittance of these People if there were any fault in it I know not whom to blame unless it be the Master of the House who doubtlesly might have refused entrance to as many as he pleased But perhaps the Good Man reckon'd upon nothing less than a complete Victory and in consequence of that the Recovery of his lost Sheep and therefore according to a Gospel-Example tho' somewhat too soon invited his Neighbors and Acquaintance to rejoyce with him And if this proved inconvenient to the Doctor he may learn by it that it is not always for his advantage that his Parishioners should have too great an Opinion of him but in the mean time there is no manner of reason why he should be angry at Us because his own Admirers were mistaken unless it be such as men that stumble have of quarrelling with those who shall happen to be near them tho' they contributed nothing to their Mischance He goes on to amuse his Parishioners by telling them of high Accusations lay'd by Catholic Writers on several of his Brethren of Insincerity Disingenuity Want of Modesty and the like And this Charge is set forth by a pompous Company of Great and Reverend Names that in view of so much Reverence and Grandeur our Disrespect may appear the more Notorious It is pity that so much Art should be so ill employ'd Are these terms of Insincerity Disingenuity c. any thing else but the plain and simple nay the softest Appellations of such things as these Gentlemen are taxed with Let them forbear to do or prove they have not done what they are unwilling should be named and all will be well If they have any thing to say against those Proofs wherewith we endeavor to make good our Accusations it will be to their purpose but as long as they shall give us Occasion for Complaints they must be contented to receive them in such Language as our Ancestors have left us 'till they themselves shall teach us one that is more to their satisfaction And yet what are these Terms which the Doctor complains of in comparison of those which the Ancient Fathers bestowed on the Separatists of their Time and that meerly for Deserting the Church and without regard to any sinister way they might take in particular to support and justifie their Schism To omit a multitude of Instances to this purpose be pleased to hearken to St. Augustin who was far from wanting Compassion for such as were seduc'd by Heresie and observe how he delivers himself in respect of a Reformer of those days * Sed ill a Ecclesia quae fuit omnium Gentium jam non est periit Hoc dicunt qui in illâ non sunt O impudentem vocem Illa non est quia tu in illâ non es Hanc vocem abominabilem detestabilem praesumptionis falsitatis plenam nullâ Veritate suffultam nullâ Sapientiâ illuminatam nullo Sale conditam vanam temerariam praecipitem perniciosam praevidit Spiritus Dei c. D. Aug. Enarr 2. in Psalm 101. That Church which was composed out of all Nations is no more she is perished or in our Modern Reformation-Language corrupted This says he is the saying of those who are not in the Church O impudent saying Is she not because thou art not in her This most abominable and hateful saying full of Presumption and Falshood destitute of Truth void of Wisdom insipid vain rash precipitate pernicious was foreseen by the Spirit of God c. Such and much more was the Language of these Holy men on such occasions The Apostles themselves notwithstanding that Meekness which they learnt from their Blessed Master both by Precept and Example were no less liberal in this kind than others as sufficiently appears by all their Writings St. Jude to give you one Instance of these also in that very Epistle wherein he reprehends Railing is so far from thinking severity of Language towards Schismatics to be so that his whole Work seems to be nothing else but if I may so speak
gratias ago nunc pro peccatis Matris meae deprecor te c. St. Aug. lib. 9. Confess c. 13. Almighty God for his Mothers Good Deeds on the one hand and beseeches him to pardon such Sins as possibly she might have committed on the other And he is so Zealous in this Charitable Employment that he is not contented to offer up his own Prayers only for this purpose but begs of such as should read his Book of Confessions wherein he gives an Account of these things that they likewise would joyn Their Petitions to His * Ut quod illa à me poposcit extremum uberius ei praestetur in multorum orationibus Ibid. That so adds this Holy Bishop what my Mother made her last Request to me may the more plentifully be performed for her by the Prayers of Many Other parts of this Dedicatory Address might likewise be dissected and read upon but I fear that my Lecture is too tedious already Neither should it have been so long had I not been willing to shew my Reader what just cause I have to decline the perusal of the whole Book when a few Lines of Preface afford so much and so trivial work Wherefore I shall not stay to examin with what probability of Truth he asserts That the Souls of his Sheep are much dearer to him than their Fleeces when he seems to be so * See above p. 17. sequ loth that any farther Division should be made in the Fleeces tho' for a better Attendance on the Souls Neither will I ask him how he comes in the close of his Letter to call the English Protestant Church * I suppose not from Missions Apostolical as if it came down by perpetual Succession from the Apostles when every body knows that has not read his Ten thousand pounds worth of Books that it began in the last Age and brags of no other Succession than what it pretends to have received from that Church to which in Truth and even according to its own Profession it neither succeeds in Doctrin nor Discipline And lastly whereas the Doctor says That the Establish'd Church so far as he can understand the Temper of it which is somewhat difficult for him to do had rather suffer Injuries than do them I shall only say That if this be so I presume he will give us leave to hope that this Established Church will not look on the power of doing those Injuries as part of Her Establishment And so much for the Preface I come now to what concerns me in the Book I am told that Dr. Tenison in the 58th page of his new Book calls me a Manager in Conference And again page 96. he says That I am the very Sales-man at every Auction of Arguments What the Doctor means by this I cannot well tell nor I suppose He himself Possibly it was somewhat that came into his Head whil'st the Pen was in his Hand and down it went at all Adventures For this was the second Conference I was ever at in my Life excepting casual and unsought Rencounters and how unwillingly I came to this I have already given my Readers an Account It is true that I had like to have been at one or two more in Mr. G. 's Company had not the Ministers who were to be his Antagonists disappointed him twice or thrice But this was before Dr. St. had published his first Letter to Mr. G. and so given me to understand how great an Advantage Latitudinarian Wits have over one not only much less but also ty'd within the streight Rules of Sincerity It is true the Goodness of a Cause is of great Weight but the Disingenuity of an Adversary is a shrewd Counterpoise Now I say how my Being at these two Conferences and that accidentally too and forasmuch as concerns the latter very unwillingly could render me that Manager and Sales-man at Auctions of Arguments which the Doctor 's Nick-naming Faculty would make me I do not perceive But the Doctor has a Rule for this as well as for the rest which he has been pleased to bestow on me viz. Calumniare fortitèr aliquid adhaerebit and therefore I shall say no more of it And yet it is hard to find out why the Doctor turns that into a Calumny which fairly represented would be a Commendation For what could any man do better who had a Talent proper for it than employ his time in freeing Souls from Error an Employment for which our Blessed Lord came into the World and for which his Holy Apostles travelled through it But I forget that the Retrenchment of Missions was one of the most considerable parts of the Reformation However tho' I have not been at many of these Conferences yet I will not deny but that I imagin my self to have arrived to some competency of skill in them and for some proof of this and because I desire to be communicative in so precious a Talent I purpose to make my Readers partakers of it as a Reward of that Patience wherewith they have hitherto endured such tedious and immethodical Discourses promising my self that for the sake of this one Treasure only they will think the rest of their time well bestow'd Now forasmuch as the worse the Cause is the greater skill is required in the Management of it I will lay down some brief Rules whereby as I conceive an ill Cause may be managed in Conference to the best advantage and so as that the Defender of it especially if the Hearers be no wiser than some of Dr. Tenison's Parishioners may come off with great Applause First then let the Scene of your Conference be Brief Rules how an ill Cause may be manag'd to the best advantage lay'd amongst your own Friends and therefore if the Disputer be a Protestant and such he must be to stand in any need of these Instructions let it be in a Protestant Family Before the Conference and the arrival of your Antagonist endeavor to possess your Favorers with a prejudice against him prophesie something which you are sure will come to pass that when it doth so they may have the better Opinion of you For Example Tell them that you are come alone without so much as either Friend or Servant when you know that the whole House are your Friends and that none can be readier to serve you than they are And then lay a wager that your Antagonist brings some one with him because you think it imprudent and therefore unlikely that he should trust himself to the Reports of your Party without some Witness of his own But this as you shall word it must argue Confidence in You and Diffidence in Him. And when you shall see that he complies with what you thought Reasonable turn to your Company and say Did I not tell you that he would not come alone Be sure to begin the Conference with that which hath nothing to do with it Make many Exceptions at the
same to themselves Nothing therefore is so primarily Essential to Protestants as to conclude both Themselves and their Leaders Fallible and in consequence of this to Distrust both And from hence it follows according to what I intimated before that when they do otherwise that is absolutely confide in either their Protestancy is at an end This in Truth is consonant to Reason and therefore one would think that what I here ask were already granted But alas Reason was never more Pretended nor less Used and these Gentlemen are so far from having it in our present Case that one Part of them whil'st they decry all dependence on Men for their Faith with the greatest impatience repose so entirely on This or the Other Reverend Doctor or on Several of them together that altho' these very Doctors * By a necessary Consequence from their Doctrin viz. That the Church is to be follow'd no farther than it agrees with Scripture and each man is left to judge how far she so agrees teach them the contrary they are ready to believe them in every thing but this and the Rest wondring at General Councils for pretending to Infallibility talk in the mean while themselves with so much Authority and so little Diffidence as if they spoke by immediate Inspiration from Heaven This is what truly passes in the World but this is notwithstanding what ought not to pass For whatever Allowances may be made to Ignorance where men proceed according to the best of their Knowledge there is certainly no excuse for Protestants whil'st they declare that both their Teachers and their own Judgments are liable to Error in Doctrins of Faith if nevertheless they suffer themselves to be deceiv'd by either Wherefore my dear Friends I hope you will not say you may be mistaken and yet act as if you could not but that reflecting on the Uncertainty which even your own Principles shew you to be in you will do what so much danger naturally suggests viz. have recourse to Almighty God who is our only Refuge in all Distresses earnestly and constantly beseeching him that since you cannot please him without Faith nor have Faith whil'st you have Doubt he would bring you to such a Faith as may rationally exclude all Doubting and so yield you a solid Foundation for both your Hope and Charity This Resolution of addressing your selves to God by humble Prayer is of so great moment that tho' I could heartily wish that this were now your Preparation of mind for the reading of this Pamphlet yet I should be very well contented if it should prove the fruit of your Perusal and that when you made an end of Reading you would be throughly convinced of the necessity of Praying And it is for this reason that I make the same Request to you once more in my Close And certainly I may well despair of obtaining any other favor from you if after all my Entreaties you deny me What your own Teachers your own Principles and your own greatest Interest asks of you as well as my self E. M. ADVERTISEMENT The Citations in the Margin refer to Dr. T.'s Account of the Conference excepting where it is otherwise express'd Page 15. line 22. for Doctor himself read Doctor and himself What other faults have escaped the Press are easily corrected Some Farther REMARKS ON THE Late Account given by Dr. Tenison of his Conference with Mr. Pulton THERE are few persons I suppose but such as have a great conceit of themselves who are willing that all the words which drop from them in the heat of a tumultuous and unprepared Discourse should be Published through the present Age or recommended to Posterity at least in no better dress than the hast they were spoken in would allow But when such casual expressions are not only divested of their Antecedent and Consequent Circumstances but must bear the Additions and Defalcations of Craft and Malice over and above nay when a Disputing Adversary not only takes care to Interrupt his Opponents Discourse and by that means renders his Propositions maim'd and imperfect but also when he has them at home mangles them yet farther and in this plight like a deform'd Sampson exposes them to mockery the injury is too great to need any other aggravation than barely the being told However this Injustice is heighten'd when to make these mishapen Sentences of his Antagonist appear yet more ugly his own are trimm'd up and placed by them with a far better Air in Print than that which they had at the Conference And yet how provoking soever this injury may be I call God to witness that my own Reputation tho' it suffer as far as either Dr. Tenisons Tongue or Pen is a Slander should never have prevailed with me to have appeared in its Defence Since over and above the Repugnance I still have to this kind of coming upon the Stage it ought to be a greater comfort to a Christian to bear an Affront with patience than to ensure the Praise of the whole World. And those who have been the most acquainted with the exercises of a vertuous life have always asserted that Applause in this warfare is much an harder Enemy to deal with than Calumny It is not my Reputation then any farther than the preservation of it is a Duty which calls upon me at this time to take the Pen into my hand But it is that which seems to be so united to it as to suffer with it I mean my Religion For altho' personal defects unless they come to be general ought to cast no blemish on any Profession yet how far shall we think that such things will influence weak persons when a * Gubbard whom D. T. in his Ep. to his Parishioners mentions to have succeeded his Father in his Benefice of Mondesly and afterwards to have Preached Purgatory c might for ought the Doctor pretends to know during his stay in that place come first to be convinced of the truth of such points as he Preached so that what the Doctor takes for Dissimulation which probably would not have discovered it self where there was a good Benefice to be lost by it might be Change. It being great pity that every one should be as Immutable in Evil as D. T. This might be the case or else this G might be a Church of England-man as others have observed supposed Crime of a supposed Jesuit made so violent an Impression on Dr. Tenison whilst he was Young against their whole Order that maugre his entire Doctorship of Divinity he is like to carry it with him to his Grave And consequently to the Tribunal of that Judge who when he was our Master taught us more Charitable Lessons And to such a strange degree of partiality does this rash Judgment arrive that with many Protestants one good Man is sufficient to bring their Religion into Repute and one evil Christian enough to Discredit ours Which tho' unreasonable in them is yet a good
Confessions and the like But that this I meant such a plentiful provision of Spiritual Guides was not so practisable in England in regard that most of the English Curates had Families to provide for and consequently stood in need of greater Benefices than those who had obliged themselves to a single Life And for the same reason what was sufficient for many Pastors beyond Seas would scarce be enough for one here Especially I said the Regulars were maintained for very little and that 600 l. per annum which I heard the Parsonage of St. Martins was worth tho' perhaps it may be more would keep Thirty of them at least with the conveâ—â—ence of an House to dwell in Hinc illae Laohrymae Now such Discourses as these I do confess that I have made more than once and particularly I remember that I spake somewhat of this kind to C. O. and I am so far from being ashamed of it that I cannot but think that the cause of shame lies at their door who are more concerned for the extent of their Jurisdiction or Profit than for the benefit of the Souls committed to their care And when I understand that Dr. Tenison is one of those it is then that I shall begin to do what he said I had done viz. pity the State of St. Martins It was according to what I have said here that I answered the Doctor telling him withal that I had spoken of the largeness of the Out-Parishes in general and not of his in particular And this as one would have thought would have satisfied any reasonable Man. But the French say A scalded Cat dreads cold Water and it seems the Doctor which I then knew nothing of had so deep an * See the Drs. Epistle to his Parishioners Impression made on him in his Youth by the loss of his Fathers Benefice that now the least hint which so much as brings it to his mind raises his Suspicion and Indignation to an high degree Moreover the Doctor seemed to take it ill that I undervalued the Reformed Charity and said that there were too many Churches within the Walls and that in some places there were two in one Church-Yard He talked somewhat likewise of an Act of Parliament for Building of Twelve new Churches for the Suburbs which was no small confirmation of what I had said of the want of them I looked on that compulsive way of doing good Works as not so * Certainly the Statute of Mortmain was a better sign of the Charity of former Ages than this Act for building Churches is of that of the present clear a Demâ—â—stration of Charity as when they are done voluntarily and without constraint and therefore I told the Doctor that it argued some defect in theirs that it stood in need of Acts of Parliament for doing things which were in a manner absolutely necessary The Doctor answered that he wish'd he could see some of our Charity or some such like words What he meant by this wish I could not well tell viz. whether he would have us employ our present Liberty in Building Churches that when time served they might dispossess us of them as they did of our Antient ones and so be Provided without burthening the People by Act of Parliament or something else In this doubt I asked him only whether he would have us Build Churches now in England To which he made me no answer but seemed to attempt something for the proof of Protestant Charity But all that I can remember he said was that he would not brag of himself Which I esteemed a Rhetorical way of doing it And certainly he must needs be put hard to it for an instance of Charity who is forced so far to intrench upon Humility for it as to begin with himself I am not ignorant all this while that some Hospitals Alms-houses and Churches have been Built by Protestants But there is more proportion between Dr. Tenisons two Parishes and a couple of the poorest Vicaridges in Wales than there is between the Monuments of Catholic Zeal * For some proof of what is here said see a Book lately Primed at Oxford called Pietas Romana Parisiensis By which in some measure the rest may be guessed and whatever of that kind hath been done by Protestants It will be a great while before the Reformation builds the fortieth part of what it hath pulled down Nay supposing that this poor Nation is not to return to it's Antient Religion there is more likely-hood that Reformations following one another like Egyptian Plagues the succeeding ones should still devour what the preceding leave than that Men who have taken Sacrilege for the Service of God should endeavor to repair any part of that which is already Destroyed The Doctor having finished his Second Objection put an end to my defence by bringing on his Third without telling me whether he thought that what I said was true or if it were whether he judged it satisfactory or not But every Man minds his own business And it was not the Doctor 's to Absolve but to Accuse There is yet said the Doctor another * Dr. T ' s. 3d. Objection against me Objection against you which is that you are One who have forsaken our Church That which then immediately occurred to me for an Answer was the parallel of what I had often heard from Protestants concerning such as turn to them viz. That I was then the better judge having known the Doctrins of both Churches But I had forgotten that what is * When Church of England-men dispute with Dissenters Church Authority is of great force and no Scripture is of private Interpretation But When Catholics argue with them the case is alter'd and every Man is to be his own Judge reason in a Protestants mouth is stark naught in a Catholics The Doctor replyed That I went away Young from their Church and that if I had understood it better I should not have left it I know not what the Doctor accounts Young But it was not till I had gone through one of the best and most careful * Westminster-School Schools in England and spent above three years at the University and as many in Spain And I question not but the Doctors of the Church of England will allow that after all this I must needs have been come to the Age of judging for my self since I find that for this Liberty in others they do not require so much Education as mine amounted to And had it been so that I had embraced the Roman Catholic Religion without sufficient consideration the last fifteen or sixteen years which I have lived in it had been time enough for the Correction of an Error which my Interest and Necessities would have prompted me to have laid aside But I thank God I have not been the least shaken in my Faith ever since my Conversion either by what I have seen written or heard spoken by the most
or not The Scripture does not tell us of a Church which is to continue only to the end of the Fifth Age. It tells us indeed of one which is to continue to the End of the World And this Church I hope may be found as well in the Fourteenth Age as in the Fifth For if all the Christians of the Fourteenth were Erroneous and Corrupted and stood in need of Reformation those of the Fifth might have been so too for any thing which the Scriptures can assure us to the contrary This Rock then of my Protestant Faith being shaken I mean a Belief that the Church of England had Model'd it self according to the Doctrins of the first Five Hundred Years it will not be wonder'd at if at least I gave way to some doubts I found no better footing in that way which was taken by those Church of England-men who conversed more with Roman Catholics than with Protestant Dissenters viz. Scripture as it is understood by every private Man. First Because those who took that way differed from one another in most material things and also Such as were esteemed Heretics by the Church of England followed the same Rule Secondly Because according to my own Judgment who were by this Rule to judge for my self the Church of England was beholding to Tradition for some Parts of her Doctrin and Practice as Infant-Baptism the Observation of the first Day of the Week and the like having no clear Scripture for them and therefore could not hold them and require them to be held by the Rule of Scripture Interpreted without the help of Tradition Thirdly Because it was sincerely my own Judgment that the Scripture was much clearer for the Catholics than for the Protestants particularly in Transubstantiation Sacramental Confession Extreme Vnction Purgatory St. Peters Supremacy and lastly and chiefly being that which includes all other Points the Decisive Authority of the Church wherefore if I must follow Scripture Interpreted by my self I must at the same time necessarily cease to follow the Church of England These certainly were Motives if not for an absolute departure from the Church of England yet still at least as I have already hinted for the doubting of her Truth About this time I remember that I had two notions concerning Faith. First That Faith was not that which must necessarily suit with the Fancies of particular Men since then it ought to be as various as those Fancies were but it was that which God would have us believe whether we fancied it or not viz. That which he would have us * Bringing into Captivity all understanding into the Obedience of Christ 2 Cor. c. 10. v. 5. submit our Fancies and Judgments to meerly because it was revealed by him And in this submission as I thought consisted both the Difficulty and Merit of Faith. And consequently that I ought not so much to consider the nature of the things proposed to be believed as the Authority by which they were proposed Secondly That this Faith was the * Ephes c. 2. v. 8. Gift of God and for that reason that more confidence was to be put in humbe Prayer for the obtaining it than in any Human Skill or Industry Wherefore as far as God Almighties Grace assisted my weakness I endeavored to obtain this Gift by that means making it my earnest Prayer to his Divine Goodness that I might know the Truth and firmly purposing to embrace that which I should be convinced of tho' it should be ever so contrary to my Worldly Interest as the Roman Catholic Religion at that time most apparently was To Prayer I judged it necessary to add a serious endeavor of amending my Life lest otherwise I should be found to sue Hypocritically for more light from Almighty God whilst I made no use of that which I had received from him by complying with what I already knew to be his Will. This is a Point which all those who are in search of the True Faith ought to examin their Consciences upon and therefore I would not omit the mention of it in this place Amidst these doubts I confess ingenuously that what our English Doctors have made so light of was of great moment with me viz. That the Church of England-men affirmed that Salvation might be had amongst the Roman Catholics but the Roman Catholics absolutely denyed that the like was to be had amongst them For Salvation in the Roman Communion both Churches concurr'd whereas for the latter we had only the bare word of Protestants in their own behalf Who likewise at the same time told us they were fallible and consequently for ought they knew might be mistaken And if they were actually mistaken I should be undone by rarrying with them whereas on the other side if they were not mistaken I could receive no damage by being amongst the Roman Catholics In a word I considered that if the Protestants were true I should be safe with the Roman Catholics but if the Roman Catholics were right I could not be so with the Protestants This Motive is so strong in it's own Nature that many Protestants confess that it must needs have great Power with those who as they say cannot throughly examin the differences betwixt us and these I take to be the greatest part of Mankind And if so I will venture to add that GOD Almighty having taken as much care of the Ignorant as of the Learned would never permit Falshood to be supported by such Arguments as must in common Prudence oblige all unlearned persons to be engaged in it But above all methinks this Argument should be of force with those Vniversal Gentlemen who pretend that their Religion is the Catholic because they believe nothing but that wherein all agree forgetting that such a Restraint of their Belief is peculiar to themselves and not common whereas here is an Agreement of all Parties at least such as have any Esteem with them on which they may safely rely viz. That Salvation may be had in the Roman Catholic Church which is all we do or at least ought to aim at by our Religion As for those other Points which perhaps they hold viz. A Deity a Saviour and the like tho' they have the universal consent of all Christians for their Truth yet they have it not for their sufficiency to Salvation especially so as to exclude the Necessity of believing other Articles when they are duly proposed and it will be of small Consequence to them that what they hold common with others proves True if their additional Article which holds this Truth to be sufficient should prove False What was urged in derogation of this Argument as if the Protestants shew'd a greater Charity by thinking well of Catholics than Catholics did by thinking ill of them was nothing to my purpose For I was then in search of True Faith and not of Charity and knew withal that how great appearance soever there might be of Charity it could not
me in short concerning a Guide in Controversie viz. That a Man after using all Christian means and Pag. 18. the help of all Ministerial Guides possible must at last judge for himself and that this was not to run on his own head As also that their People could know the Voice of their Church it being in their own Language but not so readily the Voice of the Church of Rome it being in an unknown Tongue for the true Interpretation of which the unlearned depend upon the particular Priest that instructed them I say since the Doctor Publishes what he said to me on this subject he ought to have added what I replyed to him tho' likewise it were but very short for the Reasons already given My Talk was to this purpose viz. That if Men after the use of those Christian means and Ministerial Guides he spoke of were by Gods appointment to follow their own Understandings Those Laws must needs be unjust which punished them for doing so And consequently what could the English Penal Laws have to say for themselves which did not enquire whether Men had used Christian Means and Ministerial Guides or not but punished them for following their own Understandings altho' they should have used ever so many Christian means c. before-hand Neither do Men suffer by these Laws only for Doctrins relating to the Civil Government as perhaps the Doctor would insinuate by what * Pag. 24. follows but for Points meerly Religious such as are Transubstantiation Purgatory Invocation of Saints not going to a Protestant Church c. For all which Points they are punished and this to make the case yet harder by such Men as owning themselves Fallible must likewise own that those Opinions for which they punish may be Truths and Those which they would compel us to embrace Errors for ought they know This Subject is so plain and obvious in it's own Nature and there hath been so much said on it already that I shall only add one word by way of of a Recapitulation which is That on the one side we have the Church of England Teaching us to Judge for our selves in Religious Matters and on the other Hanging us for following her Doctrin If we are to be our own Judges why are we Condemn'd for it And if not why are we Taught to be so Most Religions have their Mysteries and therefore this may be allowed to the Protestants But for my part I can sooner admit that God is able to do more than I am able to understand in the Belief of Transubstantiation than that Men can at once have a just ground for the Approbation and Condemnation of the self-same Proceeding It being easier to dis-believe our Senses when our Creator Commands than to forego our Reason when we have no higher Motive for it than the Will of our Fellow-Creatures I must confess that my Discourse on this Subject at the Conference was not so large as it is here by reason of the shortness of those Interlocutory spaces that were allowed us by the Doctor which seemed to be designed by him not so much for our Speaking as for his own Breathing so that I was forced to cramp what I had to say into a few concise and general Propositions and to throw them out before the Doctor was aware of them Viz. That in case we were not bound by Almighty God to submit our Judgment to any others but presupposing the use of the Doctors Christian means were left to the Guidance of our own Understanding in matters of Faith we ought not to be hindred from or which is the same thing punished for Taking it for our Guide in such matters That the Penal Laws Punished us for so doing and therefore were unjust And the like Which Propositions tho' too brief perhaps for their being thoroughly Comprehended by the Rabble of our Hearers were yet sufficient to let the Doctor know what I meant and consequently for a larger Account of them than what we have from him pa. 24. Viz. Mr. M. took leave and just at the Door Muttered something about Penal Laws In which as the Reader will have found there is no Information either of the nature or of the occasion of that Discourse The matter being so obscurely express'd that a Protestant Gentleman of my acquaintance was so far deceived by the Doctors Terms that he imagined that I had risen up in a heat and threatned something as I went away And therefore for the future when Dr. Tenison shall tell us That he thinks it will give the greater satisfaction to tell the whole Truth That Truth is best Painted at full length and that he will let the World know the whole Truth so far as his Memory with all due helps will serve him as he doth pag. 45. 46 and 50. We will be so civil to him as not to understand him in a Literal Sense Dr. T. says in the place above cited that we are to have the help of all Ministerial Guides possible before we must Judge for our selves Now I suppose that by all Ministerial Guides possible the Doctor does not mean all sorts of Guides True or False First Because the Penal Laws hinder us from conversing with those of other Communions And Secondly Because our Saviour himself Commands us to * Matth. c. 7. v. 15. beware of false Prophets Wherefore I would fain know what mark the Doctor hath to distinguish such Ministerial Guides as may be Addressed to from such as may not If he say that we shall know these Guides by the purity of their Doctrin the only Mark commonly assigned by Protestants as was intimated above for That of the True Church Then it must follow that I must first Judge what Doctrin is Pure before I can know what Guides to have recourse to and consequently I must Judge for my self in the particular * Viz. In the Interpretation of the Scripture Doctrins of Christianity before I use the help of these Ministerial Guides Which according to the Doctor is not to be done The Circle in other Terms and more concisely is thus We cannot know what Doctrin is Pure without Guides And we cannot know what Guides to consult without first knowing what Doctrin is Pure If he shall Name Succession Universality or any thing else for the mark of these Guides then we will consider whether That which is assigned belong to the Church of England or not The Doctor seems to say in the close of his * Pag. 18. Answer which as the Reader will perceive was nothing less than one of his usual Digressions from the Point in hand That their People knew the Voice of their Church and needed not to depend upon the Learning of any Particular Priest for it If so How could the Doctor blame this Apprentice as he doth in his 55th Page for not coming to him with his doubts Would he have him repair to a particular Priest for Instruction whilest he Heard
and Knew the voice of their Church and therefore according to the Doctors own assertion needed it not But perhaps the Doctor will say that for the Verbal Translation of the Scripture the Protestants are not necessitated to have recourse to particular Men the Bible being Translated to their hands and warranted by public Authority tho' here too they will be at a loss unless it appear to them that they may confide in this Authority but for the Sense in all dubious places they ought to Address themselves to their Ministers They may do it if they please And if not I suppose they may let it alone and this last with most safety For according to our late Divines all things necessary to Salvation are plain in Scripture and therefore to look after the meaning of dubious places is to do more than of bounden Duty is required and has the appearance of a Work of Supererogation which is such an abominable thing with the Church of England that they have a whole * See 14th Article Article against it and declare that it cannot be taught without arrogancy and impiety much less as I suppose PRACTISED Wherefore as yet there appears no cause why the Apprentice should be chidden for not having waited on Dr. T. in this occasion And indeed if that be the case viz. That the Members of the Church of England are to go to their Ministers for the Construction of these dubious places I do not perceive that they have any great advantage over those of the Church of Rome tho' what the Doctor says were true viz. That Roman Catholics were to apply themselves to particular Priests for the Translation of the Scriptures since the Protestants themselves must make the same application for the Sense and Meaning of these Scriptures And this Sense is that which is of the greatest importance or rather That which is of any Importance at all But in Truth they are not particular Priests which Catholics depend on for either the Translation or Sense of the Scripture in any necessary Point of Faith but it is on their Church whose Voice is as Intelligible at least and with the Doctors leave much farther Heard than that of the Church of England For is it not full as evident in England and much more evident in other Parts of the World that the Church of Rome Teaches a Purgatory than it is that the Church of England Teaches the contrary And so of other Doctrins This is an Age wherein Men whilest they Scepticize on evident Truths are Positive in Absurdities and therefore there want not Those who ask how the Members of the Church of Rome can know what their Church holds But when they shall have considered how they themselves come to know what That Church holds whilest they Condemn it's Doctrins as also how a Man may come to understand what is held by the Church of England they will not I suppose expect any farther Answer This were it not so Common and even with Men of no Common Wit would have been too frivolous to have been taken notice of One endeavor which I used for the speaking somewhat of a Guide in Controversie was on the following occasion Dr. T. having called me to him and desiring as he said that * Pag. 21. Mr. P. would stick to something took upon him to explain a Text of Scripture which had been long before Cited by Mr. P. for the Authority of the Church viz. That of St. Matthew c. 18. v. 17. If he will not hear the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen and a Publican The Doctor said that considering the Antecedent Verses this ought to be understood of ordinary Trespasses such as the not paying of a just debt c. And not of Articles of Faith making use of a tedious Instance to that purpose the summ whereof was * Ibid. that in case a Man should refuse to pay his debts after one or two demands he is put into the Ecclesiastical Courts supposing it proper for their cognisance And if he will not stand to their Sentence then he is Excommunicated and Treated as such a One. Whereupon I told the Doctor that for my own part I understood that Text of Scripture quite otherwise than he did being persuaded that we were obliged by it to Hear the Church in all those things wherein the same Church doth declare that she hath Power to Judge And most especially in matters of Faith Which in their own Nature seem more proper for the Cognisance of Ecclesiastical Courts than a Question of Debt That it was not unusual for our Blessed Saviour on a particular occasion to deliver a general Precept as for instance when the Jews ask'd him whether or no it were lawful to pay Tribute to Caesar he * Mat. c. 22. v. 19 c. called for the Tribute-mony and ask'd whose Image it bore and being Answered that it was Caesars he gave this Rule Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesars Which Rule I suppose is general and hath regard not only to Tribute but also to whatever else is due from Subjects to Sovereign Princes as Respect Obedience and the like tho' the occasion on which the Rule was made and that which immediately preceded it seem to be Particular and to look no farther than his Pecuniary Rights That in like manner tho' this Text viz. If he will not hear the Church c. might be spoken in a Particular occasion it could not be thence inferr'd that it was not of a more large Extension especially if we should compare it with other Texts such as are * Joh. c. 20. v. 21. As my Father sent me so I send you * Matth. c. 28. v. 19 20. Go and Teach all Nations and lo I am with you always even unto the end of the World. a Luke c. 10. v. 16. He that Heareth You Heareth ME c. b Eph. c. 4. v. 11 c. And he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the Work of the Ministry c. That we henceforth be no more Children c If Pastors are left to keep us from being tossed to and fro it follows that we must hearken to them as also that they must be kept from being tossed to and fro themselves Otherwise they will not be able to effect that for which they were left tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of Doctrin c. d Hebr. c. 13. v. 17. Obey those that are set over you for they watch as being to render account for your Souls All which places at least according to my own Judgment are clear for that Perpetuity and that Authority of the Church which are believed by Roman Catholics But above all this Truth seems to be most apparent to me when I consider what immediately follows in this place of Scripture viz. When
and Socin Meth. p. 26. Work of his own in these Words Though he the Right Socinian thinks a Doctrin is plain in Scripture yet if he believes it to be against HIS REASON he assents not to it And p. 27. A Man of this Church of England suspects not Reason it self but his own present Art of Reasoning whensoever it concludes against that which he reads and reads without doubting of the Sense of the Words This he lays down for the Difference between the Church of England and the Socinians Hitherto I have taken the Socinians at least for a witty Generation But henceforward if the Doctor 's Character of them be true I must hold them all for Blockheads on pain of being held for one my self For what is it to think a Doctrin plain in * Supposing Scripture to be the Word of God. Scripture but to think it to be revealed by God And consequently what is it not to believe a Doctrin which is thought to be plain in Scripture but not to believe what is thought to be revealed by God And is not this in other terms to suppose that it is possible for God to reveal a Falshood Wherefore if this be the sign of a Right Socinian as the Doctor would have it a Bedlam is fitter for him than an Inquisition But the truth is the Socinians are not such Fools as this Gentleman would make them They do not think the Doctrin they reject to be plain in Scripture Nay before they reject it they conclude it not to be * The Arians and Socinians are so far from thinking the Catholic Doctrin touching the Divinity of our Savior to be plain in Scripture that they think the contrary to be plainly there bringing for in many Texts as My Father is greater than I Joh. 14. 28. and the like which the Doctor knows well enough plain Wherefore in those points wherein they differ from the Catholics what the One understands Literally in the Word of God the Other interprets Mystically or Figuratively And in reference to these Texts they behave themselves no otherwise than the Protestants do towards those Words of our Savior in the Institution of the Blessed Sacrament viz. This is my Body which they will not understand in a Literal Sense Again the Doctor says That a Church-of-England-man suspects not Reason it self but his own present Art of Reasoning I have not time to speculate on the nicety of this Distinction and so I let it pass altho' I believe that a Socinian would be extreme glad to know how he might come to be guided by Reason it self when he suspects his present Art of Reasoning * What causeth a Church-of-England-man to suspect his present Art of Reasoning Is it not his present Art of Reasoning Can Reason guide him without any Reasoning The Doctor seems to be very subtil here Is not the Faculty to be suspected when its Operation is faulty Can the Reason be Perfect and yet the Reasoning which flows from it Defective But whereas the Doctor 's Church-of-England-man suspects his own present Art of Reasoning whensoever it concludes against that which he reads and reads without doubting of the Sense of the Words I dare likewise engage that whatsoever the Right Socinian reads in Scripture without doubting of the Sense of the Words he shall believe as firmly as any Church-of-England-man in the World. This is proved already and if the Doctor think otherwise I shall have cause to suspect if not his Reason yet at least his present Art of Reasoning The Reason why I have examined this Quotation is because it is taken out of a Book which I am recommended to by the Doctor for an Answer to those Questions I would have propos'd to him at the Conference The Readers have my sense * Above p. 73. sequ already concerning the Answering of short Questions and proposed in a Personal Conference by a Reference to long Books which seems to be but the putting off the Trial at best What Encouragement I have from this Quotation to have recourse to that Book in particular out of which it was * But if this he the choice what is the refuse chosen by the Author himself let them Judge For if we may guess at the Stuff by the Pattern they will be able to do it A. P. press'd Writing says the Doctor pag. 60. yet when Dr. T. began to do so he declin'd it The Reader will have * Above p. 67. seq See also Mr. P. 's Acc. p. 10. seq seen that A. P. had a great deal of reason to decline the signing an insignificant Wrangle about the Authority of one single Book which was all the Writing Dr. T. propos'd and that the Doctor had no Reason at all to decline what was propos'd to him viz. the writing of the whole Conference unless it be such as he will be loth to own Whereabouts proceeds Dr. T. would these Disputers Pag. 60. be A while ago they were all for Verbal Conferences when Written ones were offer'd as more safe and useful Now when Verbal Conferences are agreed to Writing is press'd What a pretty Sophism is here Does not Dr. Tenison know whereabouts these Disputers would be Did not those who were all for Verbal or rather Personal Conferences desire that the Argumentative part of such Conferences might be taken in * Viz. for hindring such after misrepresentations as we have had from our Dr. as I said before pa. 61. Writing and that nothing else might be published as Authentic but what was so written And were not Conferences so managed viz. Personally and by Writing * See the above-mentioned Letter to Dr. E. S. p. 26. seq preferr'd before the carrying on of a Disputation by Books and not Verbal Conferences as the Doctor insinuates before Written ones Was the Doctor ignorant of this I do not think he was But a pretended Mistake is an excellent Instrument in the hand of a Controvertist It serves to deceive his own Party and at least to make Work for his Adversaries And now I would not have the Sense of what I have said here or elsewhere on this Subject so far mistaken as that I should be thought to look on such Personal and Written Conferences as infallible means of deciding Controversies whereas I only prefer this way of proceeding in them before that of writing Books I know there is nothing of this Nature which some time or other is not liable to the underminings of Craft and therefore as far as I have been able to observe when such kind of Conferences are obtained which is only where they cannot be kept off with any credit the Protestants either refuse to dispute of the Main Points such as the Rule of Faith the Proof of Scripture or the like and fall on some other Branch where as I have said before there is more room for disputing unless the matter be soon brought to the Rule of
Faith as it may and indeed ought to be Or else if they admit of any such Point they endeavor to spend the time in Preliminaries so that they may be forced to break off before any Argument comes to bear All the Written Conferences that I have heard of which have not been above two or three have been of this sort However the Truth of what passes at a Conference is better known by this means and the shuffling on which side soever it shall happen to be more discernible Besides I never knew that any of these Conferences were followed by Noise tho' the Copies of them have been distributed through many hands All things have been hush'd and no contradictory Narratives have come abroad to the dividing rather than satisfying the World Excepting only Dr. St.'s Conference with Mr. G. where Mr. G.'s Amanuensis happening to take away his Copy without comparing it with Dr. St.'s there chanced to be a small difference between those Copies which Mr. G. dispersed and that which the Doctor retained and from this trivial Over-sight to say the utmost of it Dr. St. took a pretence to accuse Mr. G. of Insincerity and to refuse the meeting with him any more But this as is evident may easily be prevented and Mr. G. himself did it afterwards viz. by trusting the Protestants themselves to write both his part and their own 〈◊〉 then taking his Copies from them So far was he from desiring that any Forgery 〈◊〉 the least Falsification should be in such Copies And after these Conferences as I have said we have been very quiet And certainly if there were no other convenience in Writing This alone were enough to render it desirable And as for the Conferences themselves tho' as I have said there is care taken to spend the time which the Writing also helps to do in useless Discourses yet after the first or second Meeting when all the loose Earth shall be digg'd away in order to a Foundation it is probable that somewhat may be built But the worst of the matter is that for the most part we are careful to take such Exceptions at the First Meeting as may justifie our refusal of a Second He says pag. 64. Mr. M. stay'd much longer viz. than what Mr. P. mentions for he began to write on the back of Dr. T. 's Paper This writing was not till after I had retir'd from Dr. T. and Mr. P. and came back again to them according to what I have related above And this may be farther proved from what the Schoolmaster says in his 9th page viz. When the Question of How the Protestants could tell that the Bible they used was really what they the Protestants thought it to be the Word of God had been canvass'd some while Mr. M. arising went to the other end of the Room c. Now this Question was at the beginning of the Conference as appears by Dr. Tenison's own Narrative whereas the writing was not till after the Question of Transubstantiation had been started He goes on And he Mr. M. removed upon a Gentlewomans coming to him with a Masque in her hand which gave occasion to another of that 〈◊〉 to say to Mr. M. He chose to dispute rather with Ladies than Doctors I acquainted my Readers in my 5th page That not long after the beginning of our Disputation a Catholic Gentlewoman advis'd me to withdraw from it But really whether she had a Masque in her hand or not I cannot tell and therefore herein I must yield to the Doctor and confess that He is the more curious Observer of Ladies of the two Neither did she come then into the Conference as the Doctor seems to express it but had been there for some time for she had observed that Dr. Tenison took the advantage of my being near him to turn frequently from Mr. P. to me and * Above pa. 5. so vice versâ from Me to Him by which means the Prosecution of the Arguments was hindred And it was for this reason as she told me and also that the Doctor might not have a false pretence of his contending with two at once that she desired me to retire according to the account I have given of this matter in the afore-cited place It was not therefore to avoid disputing with Dr. Tenison as the Doctor 's Lady surmized for it seems there were Ladies on both sides that I withdrew but it was that the Doctor might not avoid disputing with Mr. P. And if I am not mistaken I was then talking with the Schoolmaster when this Witticism recorded by the Doctor was spoken There was a second Gentlewoman who joyn'd with this in the same Advice but neither of them spoke before Mr. P. had desir'd me of his own accord to leave the Disputation tho' the Doctor seems here to suppose the contrary The Doctor takes occasion in several places of his Book to give us to understand that the foremention'd Apprentice was much chang'd in Humor and Countenance after his Conversion and particularly that he seem'd often as if he were * Pag. 2. mop'd And Dr. Hornec seems to concur with him in this account We know what kind of Spectacles Love and Hatred are to look through and how much for the most part they impose upon our Fancies Certainly the Boy 's * smiling at Dr. H.'s pretending to Succession was no sign of Stupidity the wisest man in the World Pag. 79. in Dr. H. 's Letter might have been guilty of some Laughter on that occasion But for my own part that which I think most worth the smiling at in this passage is that Dr. H. makes no bones of proving this Succession whereas Dr. T. said at the Conference that it could not be done under Ten Thousand Pounds worth of Books Something says Dr. H. I dropt * I suppose it was accidentally Succession being a Point which of their good will they seldom mention accidentally about Succession which he laid hold of and with a kind of scornful smile demanded What Succession we could shew I told him both for Men and Doctrin and Prov'd it to him How light does this Doctor make of that which is such a Bugbear to the other It is much that Dr. Tenison had not learnt that Receipt of proving a Succession of Protestants from his Brother before his Publication of the Conference that so he might not have put us off in a Question of so much Importance with * Pag 13. Despair instead of Satisfaction And therefore I am apt to think that Dr. T. gave not much credit to this part of Dr. H.'s Letter whatever he did to the rest There is but one way that I know of reconciling these two Doctors and that is by laying it down as a Principle That there are Two ways of Manifesting a Protestant Succession One is by shewing Societies or Persons in all Ages who have openly professed the Doctrin of the Church of England And this I presume
Church is Infallible I say it is contrary to our supposition not deny'd by him and to her own Profession and if he understands less than that the Query remains viz. How that which is less than Infallible can be that which cannot fail And yet how frivolous and unsatisfactory soever these last Positions are I cannot but applaud the Contrivance of them For could any thing be better calculated for a Vulgar Capacity How says a Long-Acre-Artisan am I as sure that the Protestant Religion is true as I am that I have cast up a Sum right Why then I am safe enough I have cast up many a Bill and have never been mistaken yet especially when I have taken care And it seems this is done without that supernatural Infallibility which the Papists talk of And therefore what need is there of it This is a very pleasing Delusion with People who care for no more Security in Religion than what will barely suffice for the keeping their Consciences in some tolerable Quiet and the more it pleases them the greater hazzard I shall run of their ill will by endeavouring to lay it open However because I am more intent on doing Benefits to them than desirous of receiving any from them I will state the matter aright and by that means shew them truly how the Case stands They suppose already with the Doctor that the finding out of true Religion is like the casting up of a Sum and that Seekers in Faith are of the same quality with Accomptants in Arithmetic And now let them suppose with me that twenty several Accomptants were employ'd about casting up of the same Sum and that the Life of each of these in particular depended on his right Computation that these Accomptants were of equal capacity and that in outward appearance they all used the same diligence and application and lastly when their respective Computations were finished that their Totals were wholly different one from the other We will now suppose that the honest Artisan whom I mention above is one of these Accomptants What do you think would he hold his Life secure whil'st he differed in his Computation from Nineteen others who had every way as sufficient means of being in the right as himself The Application is easie There are Twenty several Computers in Religion I might say many Twenties of equal Skill and * I say of equal Industry that I may suppose most advantageously for the Protestants For in truth it cannot be allowed that their Industry in Religion is equal to ours Witness our Laborious and Dangerous Missions Penitential Retirements the general obligation of Confession and doing Penance with much more which the Protestants have discarded Industry Salvation depends on their being in the right They all differ in their Computations The Church of England is one of these Computers and it is Nineteen to One that she is in the wrong and this is all her Security Let the L. A. Trades-men consider whether they would trust Five Pounds on the like And yet what is That or indeed their whole Worldly Interest compared to HEAVEN And now what is become of this Famous Answer which wanted a Reply Was it not truly Froth which looks like something but vanishes whil'st it is look'd on These Gentlemen deal with their Clients as Nurses do with little Children bid them hold fast when they put nothing into their hands and the poor Infants are so long deceived 'till their Curiosity or some other Appetite prevails with them to pry into their Treasure This was just such another * Dr. St. 's second Letter to Mr. G. p. 17. Purse as Dr. St. put into Mr. T.'s hand Mr. T. desired to know Whether the Protestants were absolutely certain that they held all the same Doctrin that was taught by Christ and his Apostles Dr. St. undertook to shew that they were and for proof says that there was an absolute Certainty for the New Testament from the concurrent Testimony of all Christian Churches as well Heretical as Orthodox which is all he either said at the Conference or published since in his Letters to Mr. G. to prove that Protestants held all the same Doctrin that was taught by Christ and his Apostles and consequently the Absolute Certainty which he delivered to Mr. T. was no more than what at the same time he bestow'd on the * Note that the Arians other Heretics take the Scripture for their Rule of Faith as well as Protestants Arians who deny the Godhead of our Savior and all other Heretics both Ancient and Modern Of the Arians you may say That they are Absolutely Certain they hold the same Doctrin that was taught by Christ and his Apostles because there is an Absolute Certainty for the New Testament and so of the rest Wherefore had Dr. St. when he made a Present of this Absolute Certainty to Mr. T. been so ingenuous as to confess that what he then gave him was no more than what Heretics possessed as well as he viz. a Certainty of the New Testament I suppose he would not have been so well pleased with it as he seem'd to be And therefore I would advise him to open his * Mr. T. hath the Paper he took at the Conference and may peruse it at leisure Purse once more and try what he can discern in it And if upon a second Computation he finds himself no richer than an Arian or any other Heretic I suppose he will return back to the Doctor for a better Legacy For if we are not as careful in laying up Spiritual Treasures as we are in gathering Temporal Ones we may be Rich for a Moment but we shall be Poor for a whole Eternity And here tho' Mr. T. hath great Reason to look about him from what hath been said viz. that for any thing he learnt at the forementioned Conference he is no surer that he is in the right than an Arian yet I must tell him That this is not the worst of his Case because whil'st Dr. St. gives him an Absolute Certainty for a part of Scripture from the Universal Testimony or Tradition of Christians with one Hand he takes it away with the Other by telling him that Tradition is no Infallible Conveyance of Matters of Faith. For tho' the Doctor endeavors to reconcile this Contradiction in his Second Letter to * Page 33. Where the Dr. raises a Mist by telling us what his Adversaries hold that he may keep his own Contradiction out of sight In his next let him speak plainly and tell us how he himself comes to hold That Tradition is a Ground of Absolute Ceâ—â—ainty for the Scripture and yet no Infallible Conveyance in Matters of Faith or let him deny that he holds these two Propositions or either of them Mr. G. yet I will leave it to Mr. T. to consider provided he promise me to take time for it how well he hath succeeded in his Undertaking THE CLOSE I Have now