Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	council_n	general_n	infallibility_n	4,531	5	11.6807	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A30650	A vindicaton of churches, commonly called Independent, or, A briefe answer to two books the one, intituled, Twelve considerable serious questions, touching church-government, the other, Independency examined, unmasked, refuted, &c. : both lately published by William Prinne ... / Henry Burton ...	Burton, Henry, 1578-1648.	1644 (1644)	Wing B6176; ESTC R20892	61,118	78

in all Christian Realmes States from their first reception of the Gospell till this present compared with twelve places of Scripture at the least c. Therefore there must be of necessity a common Presbyterian Classicall government to which particular Congregations persons ought to be subordinate to the apparent subversion of the Novell Independent Inventions Now for answer to this large Argument brieflly And first to the Proposition I deny that you can bring any infallible proofes or one proof that there either are or ever have been any Nationall Churches by any other institution but meerly humane nor any one of divine institution but onely that of the Jewes in the old Testament and now wholly dissolved of which we have spoken sufficiently before And which also was not onely Nationall but in a manner Oecumenick and universall as appeares Acts 2. and such therefore as I hope you contend not for now for then there would be a Pope as there was an high Priest then c. And brother you must give us leave to stand upon this as for our lives that we dare not admit of any Churches as the true and genuine Churches of Christ which are not of his owne institution that is such as are not called and gathered by the voyce of Christ in his word and by that Scepter of his swayed and by that alone Law of his governed And therefore be intreated good brother not to presse upon us such your Churches whose not onely institution in their severall divisions but government also in their combinations is meerly humane and therefore as a house founded on a sand which against a storme cannot stand You must first be able to found your Nationall Church in the Scripture or assure yourselfe if a man will build upon it a common Presbyteriall Classicall government and dwell there he will bring an old house upon his head when God shall begin to storm it But to come to your perticular instances in the Assumption for the proofe of your Nationall Church The first is the Catholicke Church throughout the world What is this to a Nationall Church Though the Catholick include all the true Churches throughout the world yet doth it not therefore conclude any Church to be Nationall The second instance is the Nationall Church of the Jewes and from hence you can conclude as little for your Nationall Churches as before we have shewed For bring us any one Nationall that is one intire Church or congregation as that of the Jewes was or that is of one family as that was or that is a type of Christs spirituall Kingdome as that was or that is the universall Church of God visible on earth as that was or that is governed by the like lawes that that was when your selfe doe confesse that the government of your Nationall Churches is to be regulated by humane Lawes Customes Manners and not by Gods word alone whereas that of the Jewes was wholly governed by Gods own Law and not at all by the Lawes of men untill it came to be corrupted contrary to the expresse Law of God And you confesse also that the government of your Nationall Churches is alterable according to the Lawes Customes Manners of severall Nations whereas the government of the Church of the Iewes was unalterable till Christ himselfe did put a period to that Oeconomy In a word your Nationall Churches are a mixed multitude consisting for the greatest part of prophane persons being as a confused lu●p whereof there are nine parts of leaven to one of pure flowre so as the whole is miserably soured and the flowre made altogether unsavoury But that of the Iewes in its naturall and externall constitution was all holy an holy Nation a Royall Priesthood a peculiar People all the congregation holy every one of them So as in no one particular doe your Nationall Churches hold parallell with that of the Iewes no not in the least resemblance Your third instance is the Synodall Assembly of the Apostles Elders and Brethren at Ierusalem Acts 15. who made and sent Binding Decrees to the Churches And what of this brother Therefore Nationall Churches or generall Councels or Provinciall have the like power to make and impose binding Decrees and send them to the Churches Why first of all that Assembly was not any Nationall Church representative Secondly neither was it a Generall or Provinciall Councell Thirdly being an Assembly of the Apostles with the Elders and Brethren it could not erre for the Apostles had infallibility of judgement being guided by the holy Ghost infallibly and the Elders and Brethren did assent to their determinations And was there ever such a Synodicall Assembly since that Had euer any Councell besides that infallibility of judgement Shew it brother and then wee will beleeve they may make Binding Decrees and wee will submit unto them Nay dare any Assembly of men on earth say It seemed good to the holy Ghost and Us That 's enough for the black mouth of blasphemy the Roman lying Oracle But in your second thoughts you traverse this * place more largely which wee shall consider when we come to it In the mean time what I have here and before said may suffice to stay the Readers stomace But you adde All this is seconded with all Occumenicall Nationall Provinciall Councels Synods and the Church-government throughout the world in all Christian Realmes States c. Alas brother all these put together are in no sort sutable to make a second to that Apostolicall Assembly they cannot hold the least proportion with it to make a second to that unsampled sample though they make never so great a summe And whereas you make the up-shot of this your question to the apparent sub version of Novell Independent Invention these be your words we have proved it to be neither mans Invention but Gods own institution nor Novell as having its foundation in the New Testament nor yet Independent otherwise then that it depends not upon any humane authority or jurisdiction out of it self not upon any such conformity to humane lawes or customes or manners of every Nation or people as you speake of Neither doe you take away our Argument from the most usuall phrase of the Apostles calling the Churches in the plurall by saying Historians often speake of the Churches in England for they doe not so speak when they mean the congregations but the material Temples but speake of England as one Church when they understand the people and there hath not been shewen any dependence of those Churches as the dependency of the English Churches is knowne The ninth Question Thus reduced in summe That liberty which the Apostles had and used in ordaining supplying instituting new Rites Orders Canons c. for the Churches peace and welfare they transmitted to posteritie But the Apostles had and used such liberty c. Therefore the same liberty have all Churches in the world in all ages succeeding the Apostles in

government as in Davids time the service of God was in greater state and externall pomp when the Temple was built then it was before in the Tabernacle whereby it may appear that there was a liberty left to David to alter the form of worship so as was sutable to the Regall state But I answer Here was no liberty left to man to alter any thing in the worship of God or in the Church-government For God was so exact in this that he would not leave it to David himself though both a King and a Prophet and a man after Gods own heart to set up what worship he pleased in the Temple but God gave him an exact patterne of all and that not onely by his Spirit but in writing that he might neither adde nor omit in the least tittle 1 Chron. 28. And you know it was never left to the Kings of Judah to do the least thing in point of Reformation but onely to see that the Priests do all strictly not any thing as seemed good to them but all according to the precise rule of the Law 2 Chron. 31. Now was the great Law-giver so strict under the old Testament and is he grown more remisse under the New In Ezekiels vision of the Temple or Church in the time of the Gospel Ezek. 43. 10 11. wee reade of a patterne form fashion of everie particular thing of the House of God which is his Church exactly set down and measured by Gods own speciall direction Or are men more wise and more faithfull now then David was that Christ should trust every Nation with such a liberty as this to alter and diversifie Church-government and Discipline so as might be most agreeable to this or that Kingdoms Common-weales Countreys custome commodity conveniencie And as for your Nationall Church here mentioned we shall take a just measure of it when we come to your ninth Question And whereas you quote in the Margine 1 Cor. 14. 40. 11. 34. on which you ground your liberty to form your Church-government Discipline sutably to each particular Civill government Alas brother these very Scriptures our Prelates abused to maintain their unlimited liberty of setting up their rites and ceremonies as sutable to the Civil government which absurdity I have fully refelled in my Reply to Canterburies Relation Whereas the Apostle there exhorteth that all things be done decently and in order according to those rules they had received of him to which agreeth the other place alledged by you Other things will I set in order when I come as Titus 1. 5. He left Titus in Crete that he might set in order the things that remained but all according to the Apostles direction for Church-government and choice of Officers And we should have a mad world of it if civill States in severall Countreys should have liberty to frame Church-government and Discipline as should most sute with their particular conditions This liberty is that which both Ecclesiasticall and Civill States usurping turned the spirituall Kingdom of Christ over Consciences and Churches into a temporal and secular Kingdom or rather indeed an Anti-christian Tyranny or Hierarchy so as by this means it came to passe that the second Beast ascending out of the earth to wit the Pope Revel. 13. 11. commands the inhabitants of the earth to make an image that is to set up a forme of Religion and Church-government sutable to the Image of the first Beast to wit the Imperiall State of Rome And thus came to be erected the Hierarchicall Church-government in all pomp and points sutable with the Romane Monarchy So dangerous is that libertie which brings such bondage According to that Licentia sumus omnes deteriores this brings not liberty but licentiousnesse Your second Question is Whether if any Kingdome or Nation shall by a Nationall Councell Synod and Parliament upon serious debate elect such a publick Church-government Rites Discipline as they conceive to be most consonant to Gods Word to the Laws Government under which they live and manners of their people and then settle them by a generall Law all particular Churches members of that Kingdome and Nation be not therefore actually obliged in point of * conscience and Christianity readily to submit thereto and no wayes to seek an exemption from it under pain of being guilty of arrogancie schisme contumacie and liable to such penalties as are due to these offences I answer That is Whether the Kingdome and Nation of England c. The summe is you would here make way for a politicall State Church-government or a mixt Church-government partly according to Gods word and partly to the Laws and government under which we live and partly to the manners of the people Humano capiti cervicem jungere equinam Or populout placerent c. Truly brother your very question is hereticall you must pardon the expression which otherwise would not come home to the full truth And your word Elect imports no lesse For Elect taken in that sense as you here apply it to set up a form of Religion of Church-government and Discipline with Rites and ceremonies sutable to the Laws and customes of a State and manners of the people and AS MEN CONCEIVE is of the same signification with {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} which signifieth a taking up an heresie upon humane election or as you say As they conceive For you say not Such a Church-government c. as is most consonant to Gods word but such as they conceive to be most consonant So as you hang your Church-government upon mens conceit or opinion of consonancy with Gods word and not upon a reall and essentiall consonancy Just like the Prelate of Canterbury who in his Relation hangs the credit of the Scripture upon the Author and the opinion we have saith he of his sufficiency Which I have noted in my Reply But thus you open a wide sluce to let in an ocean of inundation of all sorts of Religion into all parts of the vvorld vvhen every Religion shall be measured by the line of mans conception what men CONCEIVE agreeable to Gods word Thus might Henry 4. the late French King to make his way the easier to the Crown through so many difficulties apostatize from the Protestant Religion and turn to Popery as conceiving it sutable to the word of God to comply with the State of France and the manners of the people for the establishing of his kingdome as he conceived though he was deceived by becoming himself a Popish King And so Jeroboam with his Counsell might CONCEIVE it agreeable enough to Gods word to set up his Calves most sutable to the new laws and customes of that State and to the manners of the people who are apt enough to embrace idolatry and superstition as Ephraim willingly walked after the commandment Hos. 5. 11. And so in the rest Now that is an heresie which is an error conceived and maintained against the word of God

never so wicked But to your reasons First For else say you Paul and Barnabas being Apostles themselves might have decided that controversie at Antioch without sending to Ierusalem Answ. 1. By your favour brother Barnabas was not to speak properly an Apostle though an Apostolicall man 2. They argued with those Legalists at Antioch sufficiently to convince them but they comming from Judea and pretending the use of circumcision and Moses Law to be still in force in the Church at Jerusalem and the controversie being between two great parties the Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles hereupon the Church at Antioch thought it requisite for the fuller satisfaction to all parties to send Paul and Barnabas to the Apostles and Elders at Jerusalem And 3. because Paul and Barnabas are thus sent doth it follow that they were not sufficient yea Paul alone as an Apostle infallibly guided by the holy Ghost to have decided the question at Antioch As no doubt sufficiently they did though not so satisfactorily to all And 4. that they are thus by the Church at Antioch sent to the Apostles and Church at Jerusalem here is a good example for the use of communion of Churches as in doubtfull cases to consult one with another 2. Else say you the Church at Antioch would have sent to none to resolve their doubts but to the Apostles onely and not to the Elders I answer In that they sent to the Elders also it shewes the respect that one Church should have to another 2. Those Elders were men endowed with the gifts of the holy Ghost 3. Though they had not infallibility as the Apostles had yet their assent to the determination was a witnesse-bearing to the truth thereof 3. Else say you Paul and Barnabas would have put the question to the Apostles onely not to the Elders and Church as well as to them vers. 4 5 6. This is answered in the former 4. Else the Apostles would not have called all the Elders and brethren to consult v. 6. when themselves might have done it alone I answer 1. Though the Apostles might have done it alone yet they would not but called together the Elders and Brethren yea and the whole Church at Jerusalem vers. 4 22. hereby to give a precedent to all Presbyters or Elders of Churches that in cases of difference arising they call the whole Church together for assistance and counsell therein 2. In so doing the Apostles diminished nothing of that Judicial power and authority which Christ left with them for deciding of controversies being infallibly guided by the holy Ghost while they thought it not fit to doe such things in a corner which concerned the whole Church 5. Peter and Iames say you would not have argued the case so largely and proved it by Arguments and Scriptures as they did one after another but have peremptorily resolved it without dispute had they sate and determined it by their extraordinary infallible power I answer This followes no more then the former For the Arguments they used with the conclusion were by the direction of the holy Ghost And 2. The holy Ghost is not so peremptory but will have his truths examined by the Scriptures as Acts 17. 11. The Bereans are commended by the holy Ghost for examining Pauls Sermon by the Scripture though hee were an Apostle and spake by the holy Ghost And 3. the Churches assent was taken in for a witnesse ex abundanti 6. The finall resolution say you Letters and Canons of this Synod had run onely in the Apostles names had they proceeded onely by their Apostolicall infallible authority and not in the names of the Elders and brethren too I answer There is as little reason in this as in all the rest of your reasons for then by this reason sundry of Pauls Epistles which were all dictated by the holy Ghost did not proceed from that infallibility of Spirit alone wherewith the Apostle was guided because we find others not Apostles joyned with him As 1 Cor. 1. 1. Paul called to be an Apostle of Iesus Christ and Softhenes a brother to the Church of God c. And 2 Cor. 1. 1. Paul an Apostle of Iesus Christ and Timothy a brother to the Church c. And Gal. 1. 1. Paul an Apostle c. and all the brethren that are with me to the Churche of Galatia c. So Phil. 1. 1. Col. 1. 1. 1 Thess. 1. 1. Paul and Sylvanus and Timotheus to the Church c. In all which places though there was but one Apostle guided with infallibility of the holy Ghost to write the Scriptures yet many brethren are joyned in the salutation of the Churches and yet Paul as Apostle did write those Epistles and not simply as a brother or fellow-servant with them of Jesus Christ Neither are those brethren so named accounted the Pen-men of the Scripture as Paul of right is Thus you see brother there was no necessity that either the Apostles names should be put alone because they only were guided by the Spirits infallibility or that the names of the Elders and Brethren should not be put without a necessary conclusion deduced thence that the Decree there was therefore binding as being the Decree of a Synod and so exemplary for all Parliaments Councels Synods to make the like binding Decrees But good brother for all your punctuall quotations of that Scripture you doe not all this while tell us which is the main of all that which we find in the 28. verse of that chapter IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST AND VS TO LAY VPON YOU NO GREATER BVRTHEN THEN THESE NECESSARY THINGS Now brother we chalenge you to shew us any Parliament Councell Synod ever since the Apostles that could or can say thus IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST AND VS to determine controversies of religion to make and impose Canons to bind all men c. Shew this to us at this time and we will obey But if you cannot as you never can never let any man presse upon us that Scripture that Synod which hath no parallel in the whole world and so is no precedent pattern for any Councell Synod Parliaments Let me conclude with a passage of the learned and famous Chamierus that grand Antagonist of Bellarmins Bellarmine upon the same Scripture you alledge Act. 15. as also our late Prelates have usually done would deduce the same conclusion that you doe for humane authority in binding mens consciences To which Chamierus thus answereth that this consequence holds not Quia non eadem sit authoritas Apostolorum reliquorum Ecclesiae Pastorum Because there is not the same authoritie of the Apostles and of other Pastors of the Church For with those the Holy Ghost was extraordinarily present so as what they propounded did simply proceed of God But other Pastors have no such extraordinary assistance of the Spirit and therefore their Decrees are not to be paralleld with the Apostles Decrees Which is a speciall difference