fallible authority of some particular men who informe them that there is such a decree And if the decrees were translated into vulgar languages why the translatours should not be as fallyble as you say the translatours of scripture are who can possibly imagine 28. Answer Take away an infallible living Judg and Tradition of the Church you will hardly find any Text of Scripture containing the sublime Mysteries of Christian Faith evident even to the learned among you as hath bene proved hertofore and appeares by the experience of your great and irremediable disagreements and is manifest of itselfe because you haue no certaine Rule when the Scripture is to be taken in a litterall figuratiue morall c sense which difficulty ceases in the Decrees of the Church both because it is knowen vpon what occasion and against what Enours the Church makes â—her Decrees as all know vpon what occasion and against whom the sacred Councell of Trent was gathered and therby it is easy to vnderstand the decrees for the Negatiue or affirmatiue part at least for the substance and the things chiefly inteÌ„ded in them or if any doubt should remayne the Church can declare herself which Scripture can never doe And although the Decrees of Popes and Councells are not conceyved so obscurely as you would make men falsely belieue yet all obscurity is easily cleared by some further declaration As for languages in which they are written it is Latine a language knowne not only to the learned but to many also whom we need not reckon among the learned and they who vnderstand not Larine will find so great vniformity among all those who vnderstand that Language that they cannot remaine vncertaine concerning the meaning of those Decrees though they be not translated into vulgar Languages or if they were so translated eyther the translations would be found totally to agree or els it were easy to be informed which of them did mistake seing innumerable persons do perfectly vnderstand Latine and Besides as I sayd it is evidently knowne vpon what occasion the Decrees were framed and what was the scope of them and what part they condemned as false or defined as true But for Scripture seing you haue no certaine Rule to know the sense therof aÌ„d Translations of Protestants are manifestly seen to be contrary one to another the most learned among you can haue no certainty yea I dare say that greater learning will occasion greatest multiplicity of doubts and perplexityes vnless there be acknowledged an infallible Living Judg and much less can the vnleaned haue certainty sufficient to exercise a true Act of Diuine Faith More of this matter may be seen in Charity Maintayned Part 2. Chap 5. N. 32. in answer to an Objection made by Potter like to this of yours To your saying If the Decrees were translated into vulgar Languages why the Translators should not be as fallible as you say the Translators of the Scripture are who can possibly imagine I answer There is a manifold difference between the Translations of Scripture and of the Ecclesiasticall Decrees For every word of Scripture was inspired by the Holy Ghost One Text may haue divers literall senses intended by the same Holy Spirit We are ignorant what was the scope of Canonicall Writers for every particular Chapter or Text Every Reason given in holy Scripture is a matter of Faith The style and Majesty therof surpasses humane wit and manner of writing All which considerations make the Translations of Scripture both more difficult and more dangerous then those of Ecclesiasticall Definitions or Decrees in which the fore sayd Reasons haue not place as appeares by what I sayd even now 29. But you would proue Pag 94. N. 109. that no man can be certaine of the Churches Decrees which must be confirmed by a true Pope Now the Pope cannot be true Pope if he came in by simony Which whether he did or no who can answer me He cannot be true Pope vnless he were baptized and baptized he was not vnless the Minister had due intention So likewise he cannot be a true Pope vnless he were rightly ordained Priest and that againe depends vpon the Ordainers secret intention and also vpon his having the Episcopall Character All which things depend vpon so many vncertaine suppositions that no humane judgment can possibly be resolved in them I conclude therfor that not the learnedst man amongst you all no not the Pope himself can according to the grounds you goe vpon haue any certainty that any Decree of any Councell is good and valid and consequently not any assurance that it is indeed the Decree of a Councell 30. Answer These very Objections Potter made and are answered by Charity Maintayned Part 2. Chap 5. N 31. but you take no notice therof That your suppositions are never to be admitted but we are sure that whosoever in a tyme free from Schisme is once accepted by the Church for a true Pope is such indeed Yet if you will be making such vntrue suppositions that the Pope did enter by Simony or wanted Baptisme or true Ordination God would never permitt him to define any thing in prejudice of the Church Neither are the occasions of Defining matters of Faith alwayes vrgent as we see the Church for the space of three hundred yeares after the Apostles past without any Generall Councell Yea if de facto any Pope define some truth to be a matter of Faith we are sure even by his doing so that he is true Pope it being impossible that God should permit his vniversall Church to be obliged to belieue a falshood or an vncertaine thing as all are obliged to beleeve the Definition of one who is accepted for true Pope See more of this in the saied place of Charity Maintayned 31. But now Good Sr. I beseech you reflect that in being so eager against vs you haue degraded or rather haue denyed your Bishops Priests and the whole Pretended mock-Hierarchy of the Protestant Church in England which hitherto hath bene ambitious to proue the Ordination and Succession of your Bishops from the Roman Church of which nevertheless you say Pag 77. N. 67. He that shall put together and maturely consider all the possible wayes of lapsing and nullifying a Priesthood in the Church of Rome I belieue will be very inclinable to thinke that it is an hundred to one that amongst an hundred seeming Priests there is not one true one Nay that it is not a thing very improbable that amongst those many millions which make vp the Râ—man Hierarchy there are not twenty trâ—â— If this be so if the fountaine be so troubled or rather none at all what certainty can there be in the streame which flowed from Rome to England if of many millyons among vs there are not tweÌ„ty true Priests if wee keepe a proportion with England to the whole world there must not be among you one true Bishop or Priest And was not your Book fitly approved expressly as
vncertaintyes For the Objection returnes vpon you many wayes 38. Answer I assure you Charity Maintayned hath never felt nor ever will feele any such repentance as you mention having never bene taught to repent him self of a good deed as it seemes you confess his to haue bene while you say to him I feare you will repent the tyme Do you feare He will repent the Object of feare is some apprehended evill and therfor your feare that He will repent must imply that it were ill done of him to repent and consequently that he must persist in what he wrote and so He may well do for any thing you bring to the contrary all your Objections being already answered by the Ground which I layed That more certainty and strength is required in the generall Principles of Faith than in that particular meanes or Act wherby such Principles are applyed in Practise to the Person of every one as for example we are certaine by Revelation certitudine Fidei that he who persevers vnto the end shall be saved but that every particular person doth performe on his part what is requisite to persever we haue no revelation nor absolute certainty God having so disposed that we ought to work our salvation with feare and trembling The further reason wherof may be because if the generall Grounds or Meanes appointed by God were in themselves fallible and vncertaine this want would be ascribed to God himself as if he had not given vs sufficient Meanes for our salvation but for the particular application made by free Acts of men or by Meanes of second causes all the defect is imputed to them alone and in no wise to God who on his part hath provided Meanes certaine and sufficient as will appeare herafter by answering all the particulars which you alledg wherby it will be found that no vncertainty can be derived from the generall Principles or Grounds of our Faith as it must proceed from the very Grounds of Protestants but only from the fallibility infirmity or fault of men in particular cases 39. To this Ground I add this other briefe consideration That it is one thing to treate whether or no a Sacrament be valid and an other whether the defect of an invalid Sacrament may be supplyed by some other Meanes For example Intention of the Ministers is vniversally necessary to the validity of a Sacrament in the sense I haue declared but whether or when or to whom Sacraments be so necessary that they cannot be supplyed by other Meanes must be resolved by descending to particular cases as will appeare after a while and will shew the weakness of the Objections which you extend to no fewer numbers or Sections than the 63.64.65.66.67.68.69.70.72.73.74 And yet all are the same which we haue toucht and answered already as that we cannot be sure that he who absolves the Penitent or consecrates the Eucharist is a true Priest because we cannot know that he or any other was baptized with due Matter Forme and Intention and for the like reasons we are not certaine that the Bishop who ordained him was a true Bishop But as I sayd these vncertaintyes neither are nor can be so great as you make them nor do they touch the Principles of our Faith but are as it were matters of Fact and concerne only the application of those generall Grounds to particular occasions for which we haue no Revelation or certainty of Faith which assures vs only that there shall be alwayes in Gods Church a succession of Bishopes and Priests and this is enough to shew that your Objections are but exaggerations and panick feares as if of many millions not twenty should be true Prists which in effect is to say that God hath no Providence over his Church but leaves all things to chance or the weakness and possible malice of men You teach that we cannot be certain of the Decrees of Councells because we are not certaine that the Pope who must confirme them is true Pope you should say the contrary There haue bene true generall Councells Therfor they who celebrated them were true Bishops and the Pope who confirmed them was true Pope Thus also we are sure true Priests haue Power to absolue repentent sinners and true Bishops to or dayne Priests but not that this or that in particular is a true Priest or Bishop or that every particular Penitent hath true sorrow Otherwise every one must be sure that he is in state of grace and salvation making no distinction between the vertue of Hope and Faith but must with absolute certainty belieue and not only hope that his sins are forgiven And therfor Charity Maintayned did not object against Protestants who belieue Christian Faith to be absolutely infallible and with whom He had to doe and not with such as you are whatsoever vncertainty but sayd expressly that their Faith did rely vpon an vncertaine Ground and therefore could not be infallible And it is strang that you N. 68. should speake to vs in this manner I hope you will preach no more against others for making mens salvation depend vpon fallible and vncertaine Grounds least by judging others you make your selves and your owne Church inexcusable who are strangly guilty of this fault aboue all the men and Churches of the world I say it is strang this should be objected by you that we make mens salvation depend vpon vncertaine Grounds who profess that no Article of Christian Faith is to vs certainly true and therfor though one were certaine that he did vse all meanes prescribed by Christian Religion for attaining salvation yet he might misse therof which is plaine blasphemy putting our want of salvation not vpon any defect in men but vpon the vncertainty of Christian Religion and of the Grounds which Allmighty God hath provided for the belief therof You say indeed N. 70. that we belieue the Church to be infallible only vpon prudentiall Motives but this we vtterly deny For we belieue this Point for the same Reason for which we belieue other Articles of Christian Faith which I haue proved Chap 1. to rely vpon most infallible Grounds 40. In your N. 71.72 you object no more than what I haue answered more than once That although particular men may be moved to accept Christian belief for some immediate reason or Motiue not infallible of it selfe yet still their Faith may be resolved into an infallible Ground which is Divine Revelation proposed by the Church of God certainly acknowledged to be infallible as I haue shewed and that no particular Translations can prejudice vs who submit to the Church which God will never permit to be deceyved by them 41. For the vulgate Translation of which you speake N. 74.75.76.77.78.79 I need say for the present only this That it being approved in the sacred Councell of Trent we are sure that it cannot contayne any least Point against Faith or good manners And if by the fault of the Printers or by any other meanes any
knowledge of Scripture Do not these words speake of the first Principle among Christians who alone receiue Scripture and not of Principles in Metaphysicke Mathematicke c which were nothing to the purpose Or who ever dreamed that Scripture could be the most knowne in all sciences seing it is not knowne by any naturall science but depends on Divine Revelation Yea doth not Ch Ma expressly say That if Potter meane Scripture to be one of those Principles which being the first and most knowne in all sciences cannot be Demonstrated by other Principles He supposes that which is in question Which words declare That Scripture is none of those Principles which are most knowne either in all naturall sciences or in Christianity 16. Out of what hath beene sayd very often it is easy to answer and retort all that you haue in all your sections till the N. 62. For to vs who belieue the Church of God to be infallible diversity of Tranlations or corruptions can bring no harme seeing we are sure that the Church can neverapproue any false Translation or corruption nor ground vpon them any Point of Faith But for you who deny the infallibility of the Church and rely vpon Scripture alone false Translations or corruptions may import no less than the losse of your soules by being led into some damnable errour or left in ignorance of some Point necessary to salvation For to rely vpon Scripture alone and yet not to know with certainty what Scripture in particular is Canonicall and incorrupted is to take away all certainty from it and from the Faith of Protestants grounded on it alone The Church did exist before any Scripture was written and must last although we should imagine that all Scripture were lost as some say it happened to the Old Testament at least it lay hid Only I must note for answer to your N. 58. and 59. that Catholikes object to Protestants not only difference of Translations of which you speake N. 59. but that one of them most deeply condemnes the Translation of the other as Ch Ma Pag 52. N. 16. sets downe at large As for the vulgate Translation approved by the sacred Councell of Trent we are sure that it can containe no errour against Faith and for diverse Readings we are certaine that the Church can never approue any one that is false or settle any doctrine vppon it as I sayd even now But to treate at large of this Translation would require a Uolume and is not for this tyme for my or even your purpose In your N. 61 you pretend to make good or excuse Luther who in the Text where it is said Rom 3.28 We account a man to be justifyed by Faith translates justifyed by Faith Alone and in stead of proving you only ask What such great difference is there between Faith without the works of the Law and Faith alone without the works of the Law Or why does not without Alone signifie all one with Alone Without Answer there is as great difference between those two Propositions as betwene Truth and Falshood That a man is justifyed by Faith without the works of the Law is a truth believed both by Catholiques and Protestants for both of vs belieue that Faith concurres to justification But that other Proposition A man is justifyed by Faith alone without the works of the Law signifyes that we are not justifyed by the works of the Law but by Faith alone that is by nothing but by Faith which is false and excludes justification by Hope Charity and works of Christian piety and accordingly Luther being admonished of this shamefull falsification answered poenitet me quod non addiderim illas duas voces omnibus omnium vz. sine omnibus operibus omnium legum Besides it is strang you will defend this falsification of Alone seing Pag 406. N. 32. you wish that those Chapters of S. Paul which intreat of justification by Faith without the works of the Law were never read in the Church but wheÌ„ the 13. Chap of the 1. Epist to the Corinth Concerning the absolute necessity of Charity should be to prevent misprision read togeather with theÌ„ But then good Sr. what danger of misprision must it needs be when people shall think S. Paul spoke of Faith Alone as Luther makes him speak To this may be added what you haue Pag 218. N. 49. of the danger of justification by Faith alone Neither I nor others with whom I haue confered can make any sense of your other workes Or why does not Without c. The translation of Zuinglius This signifyes my Body in stead of This is my Body is rejected by Protestants themselves where of see Brereley Tract 2. Cap 3. Sect. 9. Subd 3. 17. In your N 62. till the 80 inclusiue you vainly triumph as if you did invincibly proue that according to our Groundes mens salvation depends vpon vncertaintyes All which I haue answered at large hertofore 18. Concerning your N. 83 I desire the Reader to consider what Charity Maintayned recites out of Dr Couell about our vulgate Tanslation of Scripture and he will find that your Answer to that particular is but a vaine speculation and that he supposes the Translation which is called the Bishops Bible and is approved in England to be the best as coming neerest to the vulgate which had been no proofe at all vnless he had also supposed the Vulgate to be the best all things considered and so made it a Rule to Judge of the goodness and quality of that English Translation 19. To your N. 86. I answer that if Dr Field when he saith in his Treatise of the Church in his Epistle Dedicatory to the L. Archbishop Seeing the Controversyes of Religion in our tymes are growne in number so many and in nature so intricate that few haue tyme and leasure fewer strength of vnderstanding to examine them what remayneth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to search out which among all the societyes in the world is that blessed Company of holy Ones that how should of Faith that Spouse of Christ and Church of the living God which is the Pillar and Ground of Truth that so they may imbraâ—e her Communion follow her directions and rest in her judgment If I say Dr. Field did not thinke of any company of Christians invested with such Authority from God that all men were bound to receiue their decrees as you say he did not I can only say that when he spoke of searching out that Blessed Company of holy Ones c he spoke of a Chimera or of a thing impossible and yet he saith that there remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence only this that they search out which among all the societyes in the world is that Blessed Company of holy Ones c which had bene nothing els but to bring men to desperation by prescribing one only meanes for salvation and that an
it to be a perfect Rule he believes it to be a Rule 95. Besides this you deliver another doctrine which overthrowes the sufficiency of scripture taken alone Thus you write p. 144. N. 31. The Apostles doctrine was confirmed by Miracles therfor it was entirely true and in no part either false or vncertaine I say in no part of that which they delivered constantly as a certaine divine truth and which had the attestation of divine Miracles The falshood and danger of this doctrine I will purposely confute herafter For the present I say that it makes Scripture wholly vncertaine and vnfit to be a sufficient yea or any Rule of Faith although it were never so cleare and evident in all necessary points For if once we yield that the Apostles could err in poynts belonging to Religion we cannot belieue them with certainty at any other tyme or in any other article as I demonstrate in the next Chapter and the thing is manifest of it self All Divines and all men by the light of Reason require an vniversall Infallibility in that Authority for which they must belieue with divine Faith and if it could erre at one tyme it might erre at another for ought we could know or if it say one thing to day and the contrary to morrow what certainty can we haue to belieue rather the one than the other And indeed we can belieue neither of them with certainty Besides you seeme to require that every part of Christian doctrine be confirmed by miracles beforwe can be certaine of the truth therof which blastes the credit of all scripture For how do you know that the Apostles wrought miracles to proue immediatly and in particular that scripture is the word of God Or how can you belieue that miracles were wrought severally in confirmation of every rext of scripture And yet we belieue every such Text with an assent of divine Faith Nay wheras protestants alledg some texts to proue that scripture contaynes evidently all necessary points you must shewe that those very texts were confirmed by miracles if you will belieue them with certainty as entirely true which I suppose you will judg to be a Chimericall endeavour and therfor we must inferr that by no text of scripture you can proue it to contayne all necessary poynts of Faith Divers other errours you maintayne against holy scripture which as in the next chapter I will demonstrate make it vncapable of being any Rule at all for Christian Faith and therfor you must either retract those errours or renounce the common principle of protestants that scripture alone contaynes evidently all points necessarily do to believed 96. 19. And lastly I overthrow theit sufficiency of scripture alone by not only answering but also confuting the arguments by which they endeavour to establish it For seeing it lye vpon them positively to prove their Assertion if it be demonstrated that the arguments which they bring are either impertinent or insufficient it wil remayne effectually proved that they cānot avouch Scripture alone to contayne all things necessary to salvation I must therfor of necessity be large in answering their Objections in performing wherof I both Answer and Impugne Defend the truth and Confute my Adversary in one generall poynt which alone implyes or extends it self to all particular controversyes in Faith Your 97. First Objection Pag. 109. N. 144. is taken from a saying of Bellarmin de Verb. Dei L. 4. C. 11. That all those things were written by the Apostles which are necessary for all 98. Answer First Bellarmin even as you alledge him speaks only of things necessary for all that is for every private person not of things necessary for the whole Mysticall body of the Church as if all such things were evidently contained in scripture yea he expressly declares himself to the contrary § Nota Secundo affirming that the Apostles were wont to preach some things only to Prelats Bishops and Priests as of the manner of governing the Church administring Sacraments refuting Heretiques c Secondly he sayes not that all things which are necessary for all are writtren evidently which only could serue your turne but only that they are written which is true though they were writtē obscurely as many things are contained in scripture in particular and yet obscurely and much less doth he say that they are evident without the declaration of the Church and helpe of tradition which only were for your purpose yea that his words can haue no such meaning but the direct and express contrary Bellarm himself will best declare in that very Chapter from which your objection is taken and almost immediatly after the words by you cited Thus he speaks § sed admissa Dico eorum omnium dogmatum c I say that there are found in scripture testimonyes of all those Doctrines which belong to the nature of God ād that we may concerning such Doctrines be fully and plainly instructed out of the scriptures if we vnderstand them aright but that sense of scripture depends on the vnwritten Tradition of the Church Wherfor Theodoret L. 1. C. 8. relates that scriptures were alledged on both sides both by Catholiques and Arians and when the Arians could not be convinced by them scriptures because they did expound those selfsame scriptures otherwise then Catholiques did they were condemned by words not written but vnderstood according to piety and no man ever doubted but that Constātine consented to that condemnation Could any thing haue been spoken more clearly solidly and truly to shew in what sense things of greatest moment as was that article of the Divinity of Christ our Lord against the wicked Arians for defense wherof the church suffered so much and so many Martyrs shedd their bloud are contaynd fully and plainly in scripture that is in those texts which fully and plainly recommend the church and vnwritten tradition as I noted in the beginning And yet further in the same Lib. 4. Cap. 4. § 7. Necesse est c. he saith that oftentymes the scripture is doubtfull and intricate so that it cannot be vnderstood vnless it be interpreted by some who cannot erre therfore it alone is not sufficient which are his express words and then gives divers examples of some chief points even belonging to the nature of God which all good Christians beleeue as matters of Faith and yet cannot be proved by scripture alone And Cap. 7. he saith S. Austine sayd that that Question whether they who were baptized by Heretiques were to be rebaptized could not be decided by scripture before a full Councell of the Church but that after the Councell had declared the doubt and the whole Question there may be taken assured documents from the scripture For scriptures being explicated by the Councell do firmely and certainly proue that which they did not firmely proue before But why do I stand vpon particular passages since in the same Lib. 4. Cap. 3. he speakes vniversally and sayes that we Catholikes disagree
it by other Meanes which is by the Magistery of other men Faith comes by hearing that is by his Church which he hath commanded vs to heare vnless you will haue all men pretend with Svvinckfeldians to be guided by enthusiasmes or extraordinary lights motions or rapts And so this very Providence of God in permitting some scripture to be lost or questioned for a tyme proves the necessity of a Living Guide and the no-necessity or no sole-sufficiency of scripture and that God hath permitted such a loss or doubting to teach vs the necessity and sufficiency of a visible Living Guide 53. But then say you How is the Church an infallible keeper of sâ—ripture which hath suffered some bookes to be lost It is easy for vs to answer that the Church shall alwayes be infallibly directed to performe whatsoever is necessary for salvation of men and if any bookes of scripture haue bene lost we are sure the Church can and will supply that defect by the assistance which God hath promised Her as your Volkelius de vera Relig L. 6. C. 19. affirmes and endeavours to prove that by scripture alone the Church may be restored though she were supposed totally to haue fayled which conceit of his though it be but a meere chimera since it appeares by experience that scripture alone is not sufficient to produce vnity in faith nor can instruct vs in all Points necessary to be believed yet it demonstrates that if the Church be acknowledged to be infallible she may supply all want or loss of scripture by the perpetuall Direction of the Holy Ghost as she did for yeares and Ages before scripture was written But this answer cannot serue Protestants who on the one side cannot be assured that in those scriptures which were lost there were not contayned some fundamentall or necessary Points of Faith and on the other are resolved not to make vse of the inestimable benefit which they might receyue by submitting to Gods Church and commit a grievous sin by rejecting her Authority and so God giving most sufficient and certaine meanes you remayne inexcusable for not making vse of them Thus then the infallibility of Gods Church in being a keeper of scripture consists not in this that no scripture be lost which God in his holy Providence supplyes by another Meanes but that she be so directed as no scripture or other Meanes be lost if indeed they be necessary for salvation 54. What you say of the Churches restoring to some books of scripture their authority and Canonicallness must be answered by Protestants who receyue for Canonicall some books of which once there was some doubt neither will they pretend to restore to them authority or Canonicallness which in themselves they could never loose for what is once written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost is for ever truly sayd to haue bene so written but only we may come to know that which we did not know or to be assured of that wherof some doubted Which yet you must not so vnderstand as if the whole Church did ever doubt of those bookes and much less that she did deny or ever could make any Declaration or Definition that they were not Canonicall but only that they having been once commended to the Church by the Apostles some particular persons afterward fell into some doubt concerning theÌ„ as many haue questioned or denyed divers Articles of Faith delivered to Christians by the Apostles and the Church in due tyme even by occasion of such doubt or denyall declared the Truths contrary to those Heresyes to be arricles of Faith and those books of which some doubted to be Canonicall Thus Potter Pag 216. teaches that the Apâ—â—â—â—es Creed as it was further opened and explayned in some parts by occasion if emergent Heresyes in the other Catholique Creeds of Nice Conseantmople Ephesus Chalcedon and Athanasius contains all fundamentall Points of Faith And therfor you are injuriours to Gods Church in saying her omission to teach for some ages as an Article of Faith that such books were Canonicall nay degrading them from the number of articles of Faith aÌ„d putting theÌ„ among disputable problemes was surely not very laudable For the church did not omit to declare in due tyme and vpon fit or necessary occasioÌ„ that they were Canonicall as the ancieÌ„t Councell of Nice of whose Creed your Church of England Art 8. saieth it ought throughly to be receaved aÌ„d believed by occasioÌ„ of the daÌ„nable heresy of Arius with whom you and your SociniaÌ„s agree declared that Christ was Consubstantiall to his Father Neither did the Church ever degrade from an article of Faith or put among disputable problemes aÌ„y Part of true Canonicall scripture aÌ„d therfor Cha Ma sayd truly that never aÌ„y booke or syllable defined by the church for Canonicall was questioÌ„ed or rejected for apocriphall either by the church or any Catholique to whom such a DefinitioÌ„ was sufficiently notifyed though Heretiks will still be doing what pride aÌ„d obstinacie may suggest In the meane tyme you will find that I haue already aÌ„swered what you object P. 142. N. 29 against the sayd affirmation of Cha Ma that never any book or syllable once defined c and of which you are pleased to say certainly it is a bold assertion but extremely false aÌ„d say Hee Cha Ma were best ruâ—b his forhead hard and say c But our answer is very obvious that the booke of Ecclesiasticus and Wisdome the Epistle of S. James and to the Heb which you mention were approved by the Apostles for Canonicall yet that did not hinder but afterward some might be ignorant or doubt of them as many did of divers principall articles delivered by the Apostles and then the church had reason and authority to declare the matter You cite S. Gregory L 9. Morall C. 13. calling the books of Machabees not Canonicall S. Gregory hath no such thing in the chapter which you cite but L. 19. C. 17. which you might haue learned out of Potter who P. 259. cites the same authority as I haue set it downe This I would not haue noted if you had not taxed your adversary for missing a citation in one place wheras he citeth the same thing right in another as I note herafter Potter I say makes the same objection out of S. Gregory and Cha Ma Part. 2. Chap. 7. N. 18. answers it at large and you cannot be excused in taking no notice therof and yet make still the same Objection which Potter did These then be the words of Charity Maintayned what you alledg out of S. Gergory is easily answered for he doth not call the Machabees not Canonicall as if he would exclude them from the number of true and divine scriptures but because they were not in the canon of the Jewes or in that which he had at hand when he wrote his first draught of his commentaryes vpon Job For he was at that tyme the Popes Nuncius or Legat at
Constantinople and the Greek Rapsody of African Canons had vntruly put out of the Canon the two Bookes of the Machabees though they were receyved in Africa as Canonicall by the Decree of the African Councell And therfor you were ill advised vnder colour of commending Pope Gregory but indeed the more to impugne vs by his authority to write Greg M or Magnus the great wheras he was no Pope but only Deacon when he first wrote those commentaryes vpon Job Thus farr Cha Ma 55. As for your demand whether before Sixtus Quintus his tyme our Church had a defined canon of scripture or not I Answer We had the same Canon then which we haue novv and vvhich the sacred councell of Trent hath set dovvne Sess 4. decreto de Canonicis scripturis The church had alvvayes the same Canon that is she never declared by any decree any bookes to be Apocryphall at one tyme vvhich she admitted for Canonicall at another One Councell may omitt or not mention some booke vvhich another specifyes but can never declare it to be Apocryphall or not canonicall to vvhich contrariety only private persons are obnoxious But yet although our church had not set do vvne the canō of scripture it is very improper for you to object then was your Church surely a most vigilant keeper of scripture that for 1500 yeares had not defined what was scripture and what was not For do not Protestāts till this day disagree about the canon of scripture and so are not able to define vvhat is scripture and what is not yea they positively deny some books to be scripture vvhich others of them affirme to be Canonicall It is true I cannot properly say that for 1500 yeares they haue not defined any canon because they haue no such ancient being But I must say although they should last 1500 millions of yeares they vvould never be able to set dovvne any certaine canon as not having any assured ground for vvhich one part should yield to another And still I must be putting you in mynd of the difference betvveen Catholiks and Protestants that vve vvho believe the church to be infallibly assisted by the Holy Ghost are sure that she cannot deceaue vs vvith false or Apocryphall scriptures nor obtrude any false canon vvheras you vvho rely vpon scripture alone and yet can haue no certainty vvhat is the true canon as appeares both by your mutuall disagreements and because you haue no certaine infallible meanes to knovv vvhat is true scripture can haue no security for your faith in regard you haue no certainty concerning the totall rule therof 56. Your other Demand Whether our Canon of scripture vvas that vvhich vvas set forth by Sixtus or that set forth by Clement or a third different from both If it be vvell considered is to speake truth exoticall for to the demand vvhat books be Canonicall the direct and right Ansvver is that such or such books belong to the Canon of scripture for example Genesis Exodus Psalmes foure Gospells c vvhich Demand and Ansvver abstract from that other question about different Translations and Editions And vvho vvill aske vvhether the Septuagint or Aquila or Luther Calvin Beza Castalio set out a different Canon of scripture I meane for those bookes in which they agree that they are Canonicall and yet it is notorious that their Translations of the same canon or books of scripture are most different Or if you will haue these demands to be all one seing both the Hebrew and Greeke books are corrupted as Calvin confesses your answer to your owne Demand must be that no true canon of scripture can be found and then woe be to Protestants whose Faith and salvation depends vpon the true canon of scripture If your Demand be about the Edition of Sixtus and Clement I Answer They sett forth no different canon but the selfsame to wit those books which before their tyme made vp the canon of scripture And as for the edition of Sixtus it is no good dealing in you to doe in this as you did concerning the words of S. Gregory concealing the large and cleare Answer which Cha Ma gaue to the same objection made by Potter Part. 2. Chap. 6. N. 3. where by the Authenticall Testimonyes of Persons aboue all exceptiō he shewed that the Decree of Sixtus about his edition was never promulgated that he himself had declared diverse things to haue crept in which needed a second review and that the whole work should be re-examined which he could never do being prevented by death 57. But good Sr. Reflect I beseech you that in this and the like Demands you give deadly wounds to Protestants who profess to rely vpon scripture alone and yet cannot possibly haue any certainty what scripture is true or corrupted by the Hebrew or Greek Texts which they acknowledg to be corrupted and much less by Translations of Protestants who bitterly accuse one another of most grievous errours in their Translations as Cha Ma hath shewed Part. 1. Chap. 2. N. 16. which I wish the Reader for the Eternall good of his soule to peruse and reflect that if scripture be the only Rule of his Faith and yet he either is sure that some Texts therof are corrupted or at least not sure but that they are so he cannot be obliged to belieue any one Text nor can in Matters of Eternity rely theron as in case divers meates were set before me wherof I know some to be poysonous and I haue no meanes to discerne them from the other I cannot safely touch any one of them But the matter passes in a far different manner with vs Catholiks as I haue often sayd and must often repeate We being sure that the church can neither approue any least corruption nor ground vpon it any Point of Faith and so a corruption in a true booke of Scripture can no more hurt vs then false Scriptures or Gospells which were vented in the primitive church could prejudice those Christians Nevertheless although as I sayd the church cannot approue any false translation yet she is not obliged at all tymes to declare one for Authenticall till all circumstances considered there appeare some necessity therof as the sacred Councell of Trent did by occasion of a multitude of pernicious Translations published by moderne Heretiks in favour of theyr heresies and for other just causes Luther himself Lib contra Zwing de verit Corporis Christi in Euchar was at length foroed to confess that If the world last longer it will be againe necessary to receiue the Decrees of Councells and to haue recourse to them by reason of divers interpretations of scripture which now raigne 58. To that which you say in the same N. 29. suppose it had bene true that never any Booke after reteyving had bene Questioned how had this bene a signe that the Church is infallibly assisted by the Holy Ghost In what moode or figure would this Conclusion follow out of these Premises Certainly
whole company hath for essentiall Notes the true preaching of Gods Word and due administration of Sacraments This instance convinces ad hominem and vpon supposition that you will make good your owne inference which indeed is in it selfe of no force in regard that to sin or erre is not assentiall to every part of the Church as preaching of the word is essentiall to every particular and consequently to the whole Church and therfore God may giue his assistance to keepe men from sin and errour as he shall be pleased and having promised that the gates of Hell shall not prevaile against the whole Church and not having made any such generall promise to private persons which neither are nor do represent the whole Church you cannot inferr that the whole Church or a Generall Councell may fall into Errour because every particular private person taken apart may be deceived Your parity also between sin and errour is vnworthy of a Divine Faith externally professed or the exteriour profession of Faith is necessary to constitute one a member of the Church but justifying grace or sanctity or Charity is not Yourselfe grant that Errour in Fundamentall Points destroyes a Church and that every particular person ceases to be a member of the Church by every such errour I hope you will not say the same of every or any grievous sin You grant Pag 274. N. 57. that corruptions in manners yield no just cause to forsake a Church and yet you excuse your leaving the Communion of our Church vpon pretence of corruptions in Her doctrine even in Points not Fundamentall of themselves It appeares then that errours in Faith though not Fundamentall preponderate any or all most grievous corruptions in manners in order to the maintayning or breaking the Communion of the Church Do you not expressly say Pag 255. N. 6. Many members of the Visible Church haue no Charity Which could not happen if Charity were as necessary as Faith to constitute one a member of the Church This is also the Doctrine of other Protestants Field Of the Church Lib 2. Cap 2. saith Entire profession of those supernaturall verityes which God hath revealed in Christ is essentiall to the Church Fulke Joan 14. Not 5. The true Church of Christ can never fall into Heresy It is an impudent slander to say we say so Whitaker Contron 2. Quest 5. Cap 17. The Church cannot hold any hereticall doctrine and yet be a Church mark heere also that the and a are applied to the same Church Dr. Lawd Sect 10. Pag 36. Whatsoever is Fundamentall to Faith is Fundamentall to the Church which is one by vnity of Faith It is then apparent that there is great difference between Faith and charity for as much as concernes the constituting one a member of the Church and the contrary is of dangerous consequence as if by deadly sin every Bishop Prelate Pastour Priest Prince c. must necessarily cease to be members of Christs Church 86. But here I must obserue two things First If entire profession of those supernaturall verityes which God hath revealed in Christ be essentiall to the Church If the true Church cannot fall into Heresy and that it is an impudent slander to affirme that Protestants say so if the Church cannot hold any Hereticall Doctrine and yet be a Church as we haue heard out of Dr. Lawd Whitaker Fulke and Field respectivè it followes that the Church cannot fall into errour against any Truth sufficiently propounded as revealed by God whether it be of itselfe Fundamētall or not because every such errour is Heresy as contrarily we exercise a true Act of Faith by believing a Truth because it is testifyed by God though the thing of itselfe might seeme never so small And Pag 101. N. 127. you speake to this very purpose saying Heresy is nothing but a manifest deviation from and an oppōsition to the Faith And Potter Pag 97. saith The Catholique Church is carefull to ground all her declarations in matters of Faith vpon the Divine Authority of Gods written Word And therfore whosoever willfully opposeth a judgment so well grounded is justly esteemed an Heretik◠not properly because he disobeyes the Church but because he yields not to Scripture sufficiently propounded or cleared vnto him And Pag 250. Where the revealed will or word of God is sufficiently propounded there he that opposeth is convinced of errour and he who is thus convinced is an Heretike And Pag 247. If a man by reading the Scriptures or hearing them read be convinced of the truth of any such Conclusion This is a sufficient proposition to proue him that gain-saieth any such truth to be an Heretike and obstinate opposer of the Faith Field Lib 2. of the Church Cap 3. sayth freedome from Fundament all errour may be found among Heretiks From whence it followes that errour against any Point of Faith though not Fundamentall is Heresy and yourselfe Pag 23. N. 27. say There is as matters now stand as great necessity of believing those Truths of Scripture which are not Fundamentall as those that are If then every errour against any Truth sufficiently propounded as revealed by God be Heresy and that according to Fulke the true Church of Christ can never fall into Heresy and that as Whitaker saith the Church cannot hold any Hereticall doctrine and yet be a Church it followes that either the Church cannot fall into any errour even not Fundamentall and so Protestants are Schismatiks for leaving Her vpon pretence of errours or that it is no impudent slander to say that Protestants say the Church may fall into Heresy as Fulke affirmes it to be seing she may fall into errours against Faith and all such errours are Heresyes Besides seing we haue heard Potter confesse Pag 97. that the Catholique Church is carefull to ground all Her declarations in matters of Faith vpon the Divine Authority of Gods written word how can they avoide the Note of Heresy by opposing Her Declarations or of Schisme by leaving Her Communion By all which it is manifest that Heretiks haue no constancy in their doctrine but are forced to affirme and deny and by perpetuall contradictions overthrow their owne grounds and Assertions Howsoever for our present purpose we haue proved even out of Protestants themselves that your parity between errours against Faith and sins against Charity is repugnant to all Divinity seing externall profession of Faith is necessary to constitute one a member of the Church but Charity is not and chiefly I inferr that the Catholique Church is not subject to any errour though not Fundamentall since it is confessed that shee cannot fall into Heresy and every errour against any revealed Truth is Heresy 87. The second thing I was to obserue breifly is this Charity Maintayned speaking expressly of errours in Faith which are incompatible with the being of a true Church you to disguise the matter aske why errour may not consist with the holyness of this Church as well as many
things indifferent that is neither commanded nor prohibited But as for the thing it self S. Austine never speaks of particular Churches as we haue heard him speak of the vniversall both in this place of which we treate and in other sentences alledged by Ch. Ma. in the saied N. 16. and the Promises of our Saviour were made to the vniversall Church Yea you confess that S. Austine speaking even in this place of those things which he dislikes saies that they were neither contained in Scripture decreed by Councells nor corroborated by the custome of the vniversall Church which words declare that the Scripture Generall Councells the Custome of the vniversall Church and consequently the Church of God can never be saied to approue any such presumptions as S. Austine calls them which he never saieth of particular Churches And therfore when you say that superstitions may in tyme take such deepe roote as to pass for vniversall customes of the Church you contradict S. Austine and that the world may see you doe it plainely and as I may say in actu signato and not only exercito but to his face you take his owne words Consuetudine vniversae Ecclesiae roboratum corroborated by the custome of the vniversall Church and say that some such superstition had not already even in S. Austines tyme which circumstance of tyme is to be noted to shew how directly you contradict him prevailed so farre as to be corroborated by the custome of the vniversall Church who can doubt that considers that the practise of Communicating Infants had even then got the credit and Authority not oily of an vniuersall custome but also of an Apostolique Tradition And which is more in other places of your Booke you ascribe this very thing which you call superstition not only to S. Austines tyme but even to himself though both imputations be most false and it is strang that through your whole Book you do not so much as once offer any one proofe thereof And yet to shew how causelesly and intemperately you declaime against the Church of S. Austines tyme that you might discredit every Church of every Age and so of all Ages though Protestants commonly hold that the Church was pure in S. Austines tyme you confess he saieth they were not against Faith and only vnprofitable burdens But of things that are apertissimè contra Fidem sanamque doctrinam he expresly declares that the truth is to be professed Yea even when there is question not whether a vaine thing be to be permitted but whether a good thing ought to be omitted he saieth Si aliquorum infirmitas ita impediat vt majora studiosoruÌ„ lucra sperand a sint quam calumniatorum detrimenta metuenda sine dubitatione faciend um est Now if you be so indiscretely zealous as to say that no inconvenient things are in any case to be tolerated not for feare to offend or for humane respects but for avoiding greater evill you impugne our Saviour and not his Church only who Matth. 13.29.30 forbids the servants to gather vp the cockle least perhaps gathering vp the cockle you may root vp the wheat also togeather with it Suffer both to grow vntill the harvest And you do very wickedly in comparing the observing this advise of our Blessed Saviour to that which He reprehended in the Scribes and Pharises for teaching and not only tolerating perforce vaine things as the washing of pots c Did not the Apostles tolerate for some tyme even after they had received the holy Ghost some Observances of the Mosaicall Law till they became to be deadly as if without them the law of Christ had not beene sufficient to salvation for Gentills converted to Christian Religion And for that cause S. Paule saieth stand and be not holden in againe with the joake of servitude Galat. 5. V. 1. and therefore you do absurdly apply against the Church of Christ those words of the Apostle especially seing you confess that those foolish observances which S. Austine dislikes were not against Faith as he saieth expressly that it cannot be found quomodo contra Fidem sint and which is the maine point that they were never decreed by any generall Councell or practised or approved by the vniversall Church which is only our Question Yourself say Pag 301. N. 101. that S. Austine supposed that the publique service of God wherein men are to communicate is vnpolluted and no vnlawfull thing practised in their Communion which was so true of their Communion that the Donatists who separated did not deny it And towards the end of the same number you say The Donatists separated from the whole world of Christians vnited in one Communion professing the same Faith serving God after the same manner which was a very great Argument that they could not haue just cause to leaue them according to that of Terâ—ullian variasse debuerat error Ecclesiarum quod autem apud multos vnum est non est erratum sed traditum Therefore you must either free the Church of that tyme from errour or the Donatists from Schisme I haue beene longer in answering this Objection in regard it containes hiddenly more Socinian venome against the Church than appeares at the first sight 58. And now it will be easy to answer your N. 48. wherin you speak thus to Charity Maintayned But you will say not with standing all this S. Austin here warrants vs that the Church can never either approue or dissemble or practise any thing against Faith or good life and so long you may rest securely vpon it What Do you now grant that S. Austine here warrants vs that the Church can never either approue c. Which is the very thing which even now you objected against Cha Ma as if S. Austine had neither saied so not that it could be deduced from what he saied You goe forward and say Yea but S. Austine tells vs in the same place that the Church may tolerate humane presumptions and vaine superstitions and those vrged more severely than the commandements of God and whether superstition be a sinne or no I appeale to our Saviours words before cited and to the concent of your Schoolmen Besides if we consider it right we shall finde that the Church is not truly saied only to tolerate these things but rather that a part and a farre greater publiquely avowed and practised them and vrged them vpon others with great violence and that continued still a part of the Church Now why the whole Church might not continue the Church and yet doe so as well as a part of the Church might continue a part of it and yet do so I desire you to informe me 59. Answer you seeke to deceyue the ignorant by leading them into a misvnderstanding of the word tolerate as if it did signify a voluntary permission of a thing when it is in our power to hinder it where as the Church doth only tolerate abuses in that sense as our Saviour teaches that
earth Hee I say who with Arians and other old and moderne condemned Heretiques denyes Christ to be the sonne of God and consubstantiall to his Father as also his Merit and satisfaction for mankind wherby he is the Saviour of the world The like I say of his resurrection and that all men shall arise againe at the last day seing Socinians teach as I sayd aboue that we shall have bodyes in Heaven in nature substaÌ„ce and essence different from our bodyes on earth Against whom these words of S. Iohn Chrisostome Hom 65. in Ioannem post medium are very effectuall as they were against some others who sayd Corpora non resurgent our bodyes shall not rise againe Nonne audiunt Paulum c Do they not heare S. Paule saying For this corruptible must do on incorruption 1. Cor 15.53 Neither can he meane the soule seing it is not corrupted and Resurrection must belong to that which is dead which was the body only And Serm de Ascensione Domini To 3. Let vs consider who he is 〈◊〉 whom it was sayd sit on my right hand what nature that is to whom God sayd be partaker of my seate It is that nature which heard thou art earth and shald returne to â—arth And Learne who ascended and what nature was elevated For I willingly stay in this subject that by consideration of mankind we may with all admiration learne the divine clemency which hath bestowed so great honour and glory on our nature which this day is exalted above all things This day Angels behold our nature shining with immortall glory in the divine Throne And S. Austine serm 3. de Ascensione saith to the same purpose an earthly body is seated aboue the highest Heaven bones ere while shut vp in a narrow grave are placed in the company of Angels a mortall nature is placed in the bosome of immortality And in the same place he sayth If our saviour did not rise againe in our body he gave nothing to our condition by rising againe Whosoever sayes this doth not vnderstand the reason of the flesh which he assumed but confounds the order and evacuates the profit therof I acnowledge to be myne that which fell that that may be myne which rose I acknowledg that to be myne which lay in the grave that that may be myne which ascended into Heauen From this Secinian Heresy it also followes that indeed they deny his true Ascension since they give him and vs not his and our nature but another essentially different But indeed is the Resurrection of the dead so cleare in scripture for the sense without any help of Gods Church How then doth Dr. Potter Pag. 122. say in behalf of Hookers and M. Mortons opinion A learned man was anciently made a Bishop of the Catholique Church though he did professedly doubt of the last Resurrection of our Bodyes Was he a learned man Then surely he vnderstood the Grammaticall signification of the words and yet he erred in the sense as also many others did who denyed Resurrection as Basilidiani Saturniani Carpocratiani Valentiniani Severiani Hieracitae and others which shewes the necessity of a living judg beside the letter or bare word of scripture Which appeares also by the other example which you alledg as cleare That They which belieue and repent shal be saved That they which do not belieue or repent shal be damned For how is this cleare for the sense of the words if it be not cleare what that Faith and Repentance is without which none can be saved And yet you teach a Faith and a repentance wholy different from that which hitherto both Catholikes and ProtestaÌ„ts haue believed and taught as also Calvinists tell vs of a Faith justifying after a new fashion different both from Catholikes and from Socinians and yet what is more necessary to salvation than true Faith and repentance 34. Neither are you more fortunate in your example that it is clearly against Scripture that the keeping of the Mosaicall Law is necessary to salvation Yea this instance makes against your self and proves the necessity of a living judg For the first determination concerning that poynt was made in the Councell of the Apostles Act. 15. V. 28. and the Scripture only relates what their definition was and so this proves only that the voyce of the Church or Councels may be clear both for the words and sense Or that it may be declared by the Church of succeding ages if it grow in tyme to be obscure which happens in this very Councell For though no doubt but Christians of that tyme vnderstood fully the meaning of the Councell by the declaration of the Apostles yet the contents therof were afterward to be declared to all posterity by the Church how they were to be vnderstood and practised The Councell sayd Act. 15. V. 28. 29. It hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to vs to lay no further burden vpon you than these necessary things that you abstayne from the things immolated to Idols and bloud and that which is strangled Doth not this rather seeme contrary than clearly in favour of your affirmation that it is cleare in Scripture that the Mosaicall Law is not necessary For one part and practise and Law obliging the Iewes was to abstaine from bloud and that which is strangled though I grant it was also commanded before but not to last always as the practise of Christs Church declareth and yet in the councell it is sayd to be necessary And for the other point that you abstaine from the things immolated to Idols S. Paule teaches that abstracting from an erroneous conscience it is not necessary to abstayne from them and yet in that Councell it is injoyned as a thing necessary How then is this poynt so cleare if we looke on scripture alone without reference to any declaration or practise of Gods church 35. Besides for Circumcision which as the Apostle sayth brings with it an obligation to obserue the whole Mosaicall Law which observation is you say clearly not necessary although if we take some words or text of Scripture alone without any further reflection or consideration it may seeme cleare that it is not only not necessary but hurtfull S. Paule saying Gal. 5.2 If you be circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing yet if we also call to mynd the fact of the same Apostle Act 16. V. 3 saying taking him he circumcided him Timothy that other text If you be circumcised Christ will profit you nothing which seemed cleare and vniversall will seeme difficult and to be vnderstood with some explication or restraint For who will imagine that S. Paule would be author of that wherby Timothy should be deprived of all the good he could expect from the Sauiour of the world And the difficulty wil be increased if we add that S. Paule caused Timothy to be circumcised propter Iudaeos c. For the Iewes who were in those places for they knew all of them that his father was
in regard that these may chance not to be so cleare as of themselves alone to convince 2. He teaches That the objects of Her certainty are not Questions vnnecessary but such as belong to the substance of Faith publike Doctrine and things necessary to salvation and we haue heard him say ad fundamentum Fidei pertinere quidquid Ecclesia tenet sive in Doctrina sive in cultu That whatsoever the Church holds either in Doctrine or in worship belongs to the fundation of Faith and that all things defined by the Church are as if they were primary principles of Faith and so according to him all things defined by the Church belong to the substance of Faith and are necessary to salvation 98. But here is not an end of Potters taxing Dr. Stapleton without ground and against truth For Pag 161. he saith Stapleton hath a new pretty devise that the Church though she be fallible and discursiue in the Meanes is yet Propheticall and depends vpon immediate Revelation and so infallible in delivering the Conclusion And Pag 169. he saith Bellarmin leaves his companion Stapleton to walke alone in this dangerous path and avoweh to the contrary De Concil Lib 1 Chap § Dicuntur igitur that Councells neither haue nor write immediate Revelations But Mr. Doctour to speake truth Bellarmin leaves Stapleton just as you leaue your art of citing Authors against their meaning Bellarmin teaches That Councells neither haue nor write immediate Revelations And does not Stapleton purposely teach and carefully proue the same And does he not doe it even in the first and Third Notabili which immediatly precede that fourth Notabile out of which you pretend to draw that which you call a new pretty devise How then can you say that Stapleton teaches that the Church is Propheticall and depends vpon immediate Reuelation in delivering the Conclusion seing he teaches expressly the contrary Nay doth he not in that very fourth Notabili which you cite expressly say Ecclesiae Doctrina non est simpliciter Prophetica aut ex Revelationibus immediatis dependens The doctrine of the Church is not simply Propheticall or depending vpon immediate Revelations Who would haue believed that in matters of so great consequence you could vse so litle sincerity Dr. Stapleton teaches the same and proves very learnedly Princip Doctrin Contr 4. Lib 8. C. 15. Which very Chapter you also cite and yet make no conscience to tell vs that Bellarmin in this leaues Stapleton But how then doth Stapleton say the Doctrine of the Church is discursiue in the Meanes but is Propheticall and divine in the Conclusion Answer We haue shewed that Stapleton sayes expressly in the same place That the Doctrine of the Church is not Propheticall And besides he explicates the word Prophetica by the word Divina which you leaue out and sayth it is divina propter ea quae in tertio quarto Argumentis produximus for the causes which we alledged in the Third and Fourth Arguments In which Arguments he proved that the Church is infallible and cannot erre because she is guided and taught by an infallible maister the Holy Ghost as the Prophets were and in this agrees with Prophets though as I sayd out of Stapletons express words with this difference that the Prophets had immediate Revelations which the Church pretends not to haue but is infallibly directed by the Holy Ghost to imbrace and declare former revelations made to the Apostles vppon which assistance the certainty and infallibility of her definitions rely and not vpon discourses or inducements 99. Potters falsification will appeare more by these words of Stapleton The Doctrine of the Church is discursiue in the meanes but is propheticall and Divine in the Conclusion which Potter cites thus the the Church though she be fallible and discursiue in the Meanes is yet Propheticall and depends vpon immediate Revelation and so infallible in delivering the conclusion What a mixture is here of Potters words with the words of Stapleton Which say not that the Church depends vpon immediate Revelation but the direct contrary as we haue sayd and his Parenthesis and so infallible is also a falsificarion as if Stapleton had grounded the infallibility of the conclusion vpon immediate revelation wheras he groundes it vpon an other principle as we haue seene This being supposed that Stapleton teaches the Church to haue no immediate Revelations and the certainty of her Definitions to depend on the assistance of the Holy Ghost not vpon humane disceâ—â—se and inducements or Premises the Doctour had no Reason to say that Stapletons doctrine is a fansie repugnant to Reason and to itself He Objects pag 168. A conclusion followes the disposition of the Meanes and results from them But this is not to the purpose seing the Definitions of the Church are called by Stapleton Conclusions only because they are that which the Church determines and concludes not because they are formall Conclusions essentially as such depending on Premises Neither doth it follow that there can be no vse of diligence and discourse if the Church be infallible in the sense I haue declared Thus the Apostles in their Councell Act. 15. did vse diligence and as the Scripture saith there was made a great disputation and they alledged the working of Miracles aÌ„d other Arguments of Credibility and yet no Christian will deny but that the Apostles were infallible So the Church must on her behalfe vse diligence and discourse that all things on her parte may be done more sweetly in order to the perswading of others but the absolute certainty of her definitions and conclusions must rely vpon those words which the Apostles vsed Visum est Spiritui Sancto nobis It hath seemed good to the holy Ghost and vs. Neither likwise doth it follow that the Canons of Councells are of equall authority with holy Scriptures in which every reason discourse Text and word are infallible which we need not say of Councells though they be certaine and infallible for the substance of their definition Wherof more may be seene in Catholique Writers and particularly in Bellarmine whom even Potter doth cite de Concill Lib 2. Chap 12. and yet as if he had seene no such matter in Bellarmine inferrs against Stapleton who fully agrees with Bellarmine that if the canons of Councells be divinely inspired they must be of equall Authority with the Holy Scriptures 100. Many other Arguments might be brought to proue the necessity of an infallible Living Guide and Ecclesiasticall Traditions from Scriptures Fathers Theologicall Reasons which I omitt referring the Reader to Charity Maintayned Part. 1. Chap 2. and 3. and in this whole Worke I haue vpon many occasions proved the same For this point is so transcâ—â—dent and necessary that we must meete with it almost in all Controversyes concerning Faith and Religion This I must not omitt that I having answered and confuted all the Objections which you could make against the Arguments and Reasons alledged by Charity
may differ and yet preserue the one necessary Faith And Pag 299. he saith I do indeed for my part acknowledge a possibility of salvation in the Roman Church but so as that which I grāt to Romanists is not as they are Romanists but as they are Christians that is as they belieue the Creed and hold the foundation Christ himselfe not as they associate themselves wittingly and knowingly to the grosse superstitions of the Roman Church Behold a cleare confession that the pretended errours of the Roman Church do not exclude salvation and yet they are supposed to be against some revealed Truths Therfore errours in Points not Fundamentall are not repugnant to salvation 40. But what conclusion can we deduce from these Premises that errours in Points not necessary or Fundamentall are not damnable but that one may be saved in them Dr. Lawd hath done it for vs Pag 133. in these words The whole Church cannot vniversally erre in absoute Fundamentall Doctrines and therfore there can be no just cause to make a Schisme from the whole Church And Pag 196. he teaches that by the manifest places in Scripture there may be setled Vnity and Certainty of Beliefe in Necessaryes to Salvation and in Non necessarijs in and about things not necessary there ought not to be a Contention to a Separation And Pag 129. That the whole Church cannot vniversally erre in the Doctrine of Faith is most true so you will but vnderstand it s not erring in Absolute Fundamentall Doctrines And therfore t is true also that there can be no just Cause to make a Schisme from the whole Church Certainly Luther did not follow this advise who began and maintayned a Contention to Separation from the whole World from which Dr. Lawd expressly saith there can be no just Cause to make a Schisme But this is not all For Pag 226. he sayth Suppose a Generall Councell actually Erring in some Point of Divine truth I hope it will not follow that this Errour must be so gross as that forthwith it must needs be knowne to private men And doubtless till they know it Obedience must be yielded Nay when they know it if the Errour be not manifestly against Fundamentall Verity in which case a Generall Councell cannot easily erre I would haue all wise men consider whether externall Obedience be not even then to be yeelded For if Controversyes arise in the Church some end they must haue or theyil teare all in sunder And I am sure no wisdom can think that fit Why then say a Generall Councell Erre and a Erring Decree be ipso jure by the very Law itself invalid I would haue it wisely considered againe whether it be not fit to allow a Generall Councell that Honour and Priviledge which all other Great Courts haue Namely that there be a Declaration of the invalidity of its Decrees as well as of the Lawes of other Courts before priuate men take Liberty to refuse Obedience For till such a Declaration if the Councell stand not in force A. C. Sets vp private Spirits to controll Generall Councells which is the thing he so much cryes out against in the Protestants Therfore it may seeme very fit and necessary for the Peace of Christendome that a Generall Councell thus erring should stand in force till Evidence of Scripture or a Demonstration make the Errour to appeare as that another Councell of equall Authority reverse it For as for Morall Certainty that 's not strong enough in Points of Faith How many Points do these words containe in favour of Catholikes against Protestants 41. 1. That knowne Errours in Points not Fundamentall are not only to be tolerated but that Obedience is to be yeelded to the Church or Councell even concerning such Points and Errours How then can Luther be excused from Schisme who was so farr from yielding Obedience to the Church that he opposed himselfe to and made a publike Separation from all Churches And how can Protestants be now excused from Schisme who follow his example defend his doctrine and persist in the Separation and breach which he made 42. Secondly That to profess externally errours in Points not Fundamentall excludes not salvation For to do any thing repugnant to salvation I am sure no wisdom can thinke fit to vse his owne Words And then it cannot be necessary to forsake the Church for avoyding the profession of Errours not Fundamentall and yet this is the reason for which Protestants pretend to be excused from Schisme 43. Thirdly He doth not only affirme but endeavours to proue that externall Obedience must be yielded to the Decrees of Councells because if Controversyes arise in the Church some end they must haue or theyil teare all in sunder Which he sayth no wisdom can thinke fit Which proues very well that some Living Judge of Controversyes is necessary and is directly opposite to Chillingworth who affirmes that there is no necessity of such a Judg because it is not necessary that all Controversyes be ended But then 44. Fourthly It followeth evidently in true Divinity that if such a Judge be necessary He must be infallible in all things belonging to Faith and Religion For seing to dissemble in matters of Faith or profess one thing and belieue the contrary is a grievous sin and a most pernicious ly no man can yield externall Obedience against the judgment and dictamen of his Conscience and yet it being also true that we are obliged to obey the Decrees of Generall Councells we must of necessity affirme that they are infallible and cannot Decree any Errour in Faith Otherwise I must either disobey or speake against my Conscience in matters of Faith which is intrinsecè malum and can never be excused from a damnable sin To these straights Protestants are brought by denying the infallibility of Gods Church May Councells be disobeyed Then there will be no meanes to end Controversyes and theyil teare all in sunder Must they be obeyed Then in case they decree an Errour against Faith as they may doe if they be fallible men must proceed against their Conscience What then remaynes but to belieue that they are infallible and so we securely may and necessarily must obey their Decrees because I am sure that they haue both infallibility not to erre and Authority to command Thus our beliefe and proceeding is cleare smooth and most consequent wheras our Adversaryes denying the said infallibility are forced to great impietyes against God and manifest contradictions with themselves Besides seing he confesses that Morall Certainty is not strong enough in Points of Faith the Judge of Controversyes in such Points must be absolutely infallible otherwise we cannot receiue from him Certaintyes strong enough for Points of Faith And if Controversyes must be ended by Generall Councells as he affirmes their Decrees must be of more than Morall Certainty 45. Fiftly Wheras he sayes that Obedience is not to be yielded if the Errour be manifestly against Fundamentall Verity he ought to consider
that the chiefest malice in Heresy consists not in being against such or such a materiall Object or Truth great or little Fundamentall or not Fundamentall but in the opposition it carryeth with the Divine testimony which we suppose to be equally represented in both kinds of Points Fundamentall and not Fundamentall And therfore he must either say that Obedience is to be yielded in both which were most absurd or in neither And that it may be securely yielded in both we must acknowledg a Judge endued with infallibility Neither doth A. C. Set vp private Spirits to controll Generall Councells which Catholiks belieue to be infallible but that absurdity flowes out of the doctrine of Protestants affirming them to be fallible even in Fundamentall Points and consequently private men are neither obliged nor can rely on their Authority in matters of Faith for which Morall Certainty is not strongh enough but may Judge as they find cause out of Scripture or reason and may oppose their Decrees nor can ever obey them against their Conscience And if all Councells be fallible what greater certainty can I receaue from the second than from the first if we meerly respect their Authority For if I be mooved with some new reason or Demonstration I am not mooved for the Authority of the Councell but for that Reason which seemes good to mee And is not this to set vp private men and Spirits to controll Generall Councells 46. Sixthly He saith A Generall Councell cannot easily erre manifestly against Fundamentall Verity From whence I inferr that seing Luther opposed the whole Church and so many Generall Councells held before his tyme he is to be presumed to haue opposed them not for any manifest Fundamentall but at most for Errours not Fundamentall to speake as Protestants do For indeed Councells cannot erre in either kind in which Points not Fundamentall he sayth men are to yield Obedience and therfore He and all those who formerly did and now do follow his example are to be judged guilty of Schisme 47. Seaventhly He saith It may seeme very fit and necessary for the Peace of Christendome that a Generall Councell thus erring should stand in force till evidence of Scripture or a Demonstration make the Errour to appeare as that another Councell of equall Authority reverse it In these words he gives vs Catholikes no small advantage against the Capitall principle of Protestants that Scripture alone containes evidently all necessary Points For if evidence of Scripture or a Demonstration may be so inevident or obscure to a whole lawfull Generall Councell that it may fall into Fundamentall Errours which in the grounds of Protestants are opposite only to some Truth evidently contained in Scripture it is evident that he and other Protestants say nothing when they talke of evidence of Scripture but that indeed every one makes and calls that evident which he desires should be so And how is it possible that a true Generall Councell should be so blind as not to see that which is evident And this indeed is to set vp private Spirits to controll Generall Councells I will not vrge what he meanes by a Demonstration when he distinguisheth it from Evidence of Scripture A Demonstration implyes an vndeniable and as I may say an Evident Evidence and if it be an Evidence distinct from the Evidence of Scripture which according to Protestants containes evidently all necessary Points of Faith it must be evidence of naturall Reason which is common to all men And how can a Generall Councell erre against such a kind of Evidēce But as I sayd Evidēce with Protestāts is a voluntary word which they make vse of to their purpose Besides Scripture is no lesse evidēt in innumerable points not fundamētall than it is in some which are Fundamentall and therfore all who belieue Scripture are obliged to belieue those no less than these vnless men will say that it is not damnable to belieue and professe somthing evidently knowne to be against Scripture and therfore in this there can be no distinction between Fundamētall ād not fundamētall Points ād so a Generall Councell may as easily erre against Fundamentall Articles as against Points not Fundamentall clearly delivered in Scripture in which case it is destructiue of salvation to erre against either of those kinds I haue beene somwhat long in pondering his words because I vnderstand the booke is esteemed by some and I hope it appeares by what I haue now said out of it that we may be saved that a Living judg of controversyes is necessary that Luther and all Protestants are guilty of the sin of Schisme Three as mayne and capitall Points in fauour of vs against Protestants as we can desire and they feare 48. Herafter we will ponder Mr. Chillingworths words for our present purpose who speaking of Generall Councells saith Pag 200. N. 18. I willingly confess the judgment of a Councell though not infallible is yet so farr directiue and obliging that without apparent reason to the contrary it may be sin to reject it at least not to affoard it an outward submission for publike peace-sake As also we will consider Potters words Pag 165. speaking thus We say that such Generall Councells as are lawfully called and proceed orderly are great and awfull representations of the Church Catholique that they are the highest externall Tribunall which the Church hath on Earth that their Authority is immediatly derived and delegated from Christ that no Christian is exempted from their censures and jurisdiction that their decrees bind all persons to externall obedience and may not be questioned but vpon evident reason nor reversed but by an equall authority that if they be carefull and diligent in the vse of all good Meanes for finding out the truth it is very probable that the good spirit will so direct them that they shall not erre at least not Fundamentally 49. But let vs proceed in proving that Protestants hold Points not Fundamentall not to be of any great moment and much less to be destructiue of salvation It is cleare that Protestants differ among them selves in many Points which they pretēd to be only not Fundamētall ād say they do not destroy the ubstāce of Faith nor hinder thē from being Brethren and of the same Church And why because such Points are small matter as Whitaker speakes Cont ◠Quest 4. Cap 3. Things in different and tittles as King James saith in his Monitory Epistle Matters of no great moment as Andrewes Respons ad Apolog Bellarmin Cap 14. No great matters Apology of the Church of England Matters of nothing as Calvin calls them Admonit Vlt Pag 132. Matters not to be much respected if you believe Martyr in locis Classe 4. C. 10. § 65. Formes and phrases of speech as Potter speaks Pag 90. a curious nicity Pag 91. 50. Out of all which we must conclude both out of the words deeds and principles of Protestants First that errours against Points not Fundamentall are not
Protestants teach that the Roman Church doth not erre in any Point Fundamentall or necessary to salvation and this you say diverse tymes is not true 147. Answer I will not say as you Pag. 76. N. 63. speake to Charity Maintayned I feare you will repent the tyme that ever you vrged this Point against Charity Maintayned but contrarily I hope that the Reader if he be not a Protestant will find just occasion to prayse God that the Answer to this your Objection will demonstrate to him in how safe a way we Catholikes are even by the confession of our Adversaryes and how much it imports him to place his soule in the like safety 148. I haue already vpon severall occasions mentioned some passages wherin you and Dr. Potter confesse that the Roman Church wants nothing necessary to salvation Now I will doe it more at large Potter Pag 63. saith The most necessary and fundamentall Truths which constitute a Church are on both sides vnquestioned And for that reason learned Protestants yield them Romanisis as he calls vs the name and substance of a Christian Church Where we see that he saith in generall learued Protestants yield them c. In proofe wherof he cites in his margent Junius D. Reinolds and sayes See the juagment of many other writers in the Advertisement annexed to the Old Religion by the Reverend Bishop of Exeter and adds The very Anabaotists grant it Fr. Ichnson in his Christian plea Pa 123. So that with this one Testimony of Potter we haue many other even of our greatest Adversaryes And I desire the reader to obserue well that here P 62 he saith To those twelue Articles which the Apostles in their Creed esteâ—med a sufficient Summary of wholsome Doctrine they Catholikes haue added many more Such are for instance their Apocryphall Scriptures and vnwrâ—ten dogmaticall Traditions their Transsubstantiation and dry Communion their Purgatory Invocation of Saints Worship of Images Latine service trafficke of Indulgences and shortly the other new Doctrines and Decrees canonized in their late Synode of Trent Vpon these and the like new Articles is all the contestation between the Romanists and Protestants And then he adds the words which we haue cited The most necessary and Fundamentall truths which constatute a Church are on both sides vnquestioned and for that c. Where we see he grants we belieue the twelue Articles of the Apostles Creed which he teaches at large to containe all Fundamentall Points of Faith and that we hold all the most necessary and Fundamentall truths which constitute a Church Therfore those Points of our Doctrine which he giues for instance are no Fundementall errours nor the contrary Articles necessary and Fundamentall truths and yet he names all the Chiefest Points controverted betweene vs and Protestants even transubstantiation Communion in one kind and Latine Service which are the things they are wont most to oppose yea he comprises all the Doctrines and Decrees of the Councell of Trent Therfore we are free from fundamentall errours by the confession of our Adversaryes Pag 59. The Protestants never intended to erect a new Church but to purge the Old The Reformation did not change the substance of Religion but only clensed it from corrupt and impure qualityes If the Protestants erected not a new Church then ours is still the Old Church and if it were only clensed from corrupt qualityes without change of the substance the substance must be still the same that it was and that which was must be the same with that which is Pag 61. The things which the Protestants belieue on their part and wherin they judge the life and substance of Religion to be comprized are most if not all of them so evidently and indisputably true that their Adversaryes themselves do avow and receaue them as well as they Therfore we Catolikes haue the life and substance of Religion Pag 60. In the prime grounds of Principles or Christian Religion wee haue not forsaken the Church of Rome Therfore you grant that we haue the prime grounds or Fundamentall Articles of Religion Pag 11. For those Catholique Verityes which she the Roman Church retaines we yield her a member of the Catholike though one of the most vnsound and corrupt members In this sense the Romanists may be called Catholikes Behold we are members of the Catholike Church which could not be if we erred in any one fundamentall Point By the way If the Romanists may be called Catholikes why may not the Roman Church be termed Catholique And yet this is that Argument which Protestants are wont to vrge against vs and Potter in particular in this very place not considering that he impugnes himselfe while he speakes against vs nor distinguishing between vniversall as Logicians speake of it which signifyes one common thing abstracting or abstracted from all particulars and Catholique as it is taken in true Divinity for the Church spred over the whole world that is all Churches which agree with the Roman and vpon that vaine conceit telling his vnlearned Reader that vniversall and particular are termes repugnant and consequently one cannot be affirmed of the other that is say I Catholique cannot be affirmed of Dr. Potter nor Dr. Potter sayd to be a Catholike because a particular cannot be sayd to be vniversall or an vniversall Pag 75. To depart from the Church of RomeÌ„ in some doctrines and practises there might be just and necessary cause though the Church of Rome wanted nothing necessary to salvation P 70. They the Roman Doctours confess that setting aside all matters controverted the maine positiue truths wherin all agree are abundantly sufficient to every good Christian both for his knowledge and for his practise teaching him what to belieue and how to liue so as he may be saved His saying that the Roman Doctours confesse that setting a side all matters controverted c. is very vntrue it being manifest that Catholikes belieue Protestants to erre damnably both in matters of Faith and practise yet his words convince ad hominem that we haue all that is necessary yea and abundantly sufficient both for knowledg and practise for vs to be saved And then he discoursing of the Doctrines wherin we differ from Protestants saith Pag 74. If the mistaker will suppose his Roman Church and Religion purged from these and the like confessed excesses and noveltyes he shall find in that which remaines little difference of importance betweene vs. Therfore de facto we belieue all things of importance which Protestants belieue After these words without any interruption he goes forward and sayes Pag 75. But by this discourse the Mistaker happily may belieue his cause to be advantaged and may reply If Rome want nothing essentiall to Religion or to a Church how then can the Reformers justify their separation from that Church or free themselves from damnable Schisme Doth not this discourse proue and the Objection which he rayses from it suppose that we want nothing essentiall to Religion Otherwise
errour not be damnable yea even though it were damnable and fundamentall which is to be noted because It is nothing but opposing the Doctrine of the Apostles that makes an errour damnable and it is impossible the Apostles should oppose the Apostles The like you may say of Scripture it selfe that it might erre and yet that it could not containe any damnable errour because according to Protestants It is nothing but opposing the Scripture that makes an errour damnable and it is impossible that the Scripture should oppose the Scripture which consequences are absurd and therfore as you would answer by denying the supposition that the Apostles can teach or Scripture can containe any errour so you know we absolutly deny your supposition that the Church can erre in matters of Faith which if we did grant we would not be so foolish as to beliefe that Nothing but opposing the Doctrine of the Church makes an errour damnable but contrarily we would affirme that precisily to oppose the Churches Doctrine that supposition being once made could never be Heresy or a damnable errour And therfore we speake very consequently in First believing that the Church cannot erre and then in avouching that every errour repugnant to the Doctrine of the Church is heresy The Motto in the frontispice of your Booke taken out of Jsaac Casaubon in Epist ad Card Perron Regis Jacobi nomine scriptâ sayth Simpliciter necessaria Rex appellat quae vel expresse Uerbum Dei praecipit credenda faciendaue vel ex Uerbo Dei necessariâ consequentiâ Uetus Ecclesia elicuit Obserue that he speakes of things absolutely necessary to salvation and then I say if the Church be subject to errour how can we be sure that Her Deductions from Scripture are necessary or only probable true or false though to her they may seeme true and necessary You say it is impossible that the present Church should oppose itselfe and do not reflect by this vety saying yourselfe must suppose that the Church can teach nothing but truth For if she may erre in some Points and believe aright in others those errours may be opposite to some truth which she believes though she do not marke that opposition You say Pag 215. N. 46. no mans errours can be confuted who togeather with his errour doth not belieue 〈◊〉 grant some true Principle that contradicts his errour If then the Churches errours may be confuted as you will suppose they may she must belieue some truth that contradicts her errour and therefore if it be impossible that the Church can be opposite to herselfe as you say it is impossible you must grant that she cannot belieue or teach any errour and then indeed it will be impossible for her to oppose herselfe because truth cannot possibly be opposite to truth 10. In the same N. 4. I must touch in a word that you falsify the words of Charity Maintayned Part 1. Pag 19. some may for a tyme haue invincible Ignorance even of some Fundamentall Article of Faith through want of capacity instruction or the like and so not offend either in such Ignorance or errour But you cite them thus Ignorance may excuse errours even in Fundamentall Articles of Faith omitting that necessary limitation for a tyme without which restriction the words sound as if absolvtely a man may liue and dy with invincible ignorance of Fundamentall Articles or of Points absolutely necessary to salvation and so want meanes sufficient to besaved without any fault of his which is not true For if he cooperate with Gods holy Grace they shall be degrees advance to the beliefe of all necessary Points though for a tyme they were ignorant of them And here I reflect that if a Protestant erre in or be invincibly ignorant for a tyme fo some fundamentall Point sufficiently proposed and believed by other Protestants they differ in the beliefe of fundamentall Points and the ignorant party sins not damnably and yet they sin damnably who disbelieue any Point sufficiently knowne to be revealed by God though otherwise it be not fundamentall of it selfe and therfore it is cleare that in matters of Divine Faith consideration is chiefly to be had of the formall and not of the materiall object 11. In your N. 7. you say God hath left meanes sufficient to determine not all Controversyes but all necessary to be determined Which concession is as much as we desire For no man dare say that God hath given any meanes only for superfluous vses or occasions and therfore seing he hath left meanes for deciding all Controversyes necessary to be determined we cannot without injury to his infinite wisdome imagine that there will never be necessity of determining any Since then as I sayd God hath given Authority to his visible Church for determining such Controversyes he will not faile to replenish her with Wisdome to discerne what be the occasions wherin they ought to be determined according to the exigence of particular circumstances Thus the Apostles called a Councell vpon occasion of difference amongst Christians about the Law of Moyses and the first foure Generall Councells which commonly Protestants pretend to receiue were gathered vpon severall occasions of emergent Heresyes The Scripture it selfe was not written all at once but as occasion did require and the same Holy Spirit which assisted Canonicall Writers in writing did appoint to them the tymes and occasions for which their writings would be most seasonable yet after they were once written it was necessary to belieue them as also the Decree of the Apostles in their Councell registred Act 15. and other Generall Councells and commands of the Church If Controversyes rise to such a height that there is periculum in mora danger in delaying to determine them either for avoiding insufferable breach of Charity and Schisme or corruptions in manners or invalidity of Sacraments which cannot be otherwise prevented If silence may be interpreted to imply a consent If errour be like to prevaile vnlesse it be condemned if new Heresyes be in danger to take roote if they be not crushed with speede if these or any other causes require the Decision of Controversyes the Holy Ghost will effectually inspire and direct his Church to apply a convenient remedy according to the Condition of the matter Neither ought it to seeme strang that somthing may grow to be necessary one tyme which was not necessary at another and in the meane tyme men may be saved by an humble preparation of mynd to belieue and obey whatsoever the Church shall in good tyme determine or command And by the way out of this discourse we may inferr that Scripture alone cannot be a Rule to decide all Controversyes in regard that such a Rule or judge must serue for all emergent occasions and Scripture being always the same cannot be applyed sutably to all new different circumstances as I haue often saied 12. You say If some Controversyes may for many Ages be vndetermined and yet in the meane tyme
men may be saved why should or how can the Churches being furnished with effectuall meanes to determine all Controversyes in Religion be necessary to salvation the end itselfe to which these meanes are ordained being as experience shewes not necessary But the Answer to this objection hath been given already For some thing may be necessary for some persons at some tyme in some Circumstances which are not necessary vniversally for all Persons Tymes and Circumstances as I specifyed in the Councell of the Apostles in Canonicall writings which written vpon some particular occasion yet require an vniversall beliefe and in generall Councells which you and Potter affirme to oblige as we haue seene aboue Indeed your peremtory wild demand Why should or how can the Churches being furnished with effectuall Meanes to determine all Controversyes be necessary c might well by your leaue beseeme some Jew asking why should or how can Christian Religion be necessary to salvation if for many Ages it was not in Being and yet in the meane tyme men were saved Or why should or how can the believing and obeying the Definition of the Apostles in their Councell or the beliefe of the Gospells and other Canonicall writings be necessary to salvation if for many ages such beliefe was not required and in the meane tyme men were saued Or why should or how can infallibility be necessary to write the Scripture if the writing of Scripture was not necessary but that men were sayed without it You say in the same N. 7. I grant that the meanes to decide Controversyes of Faith and Religion must be indued with an vniversall infallibility in whatsoever it propoundeth for a Divine Truth For if it may be false in any one thing of this nature we can yield vnto it but a wavering and fearfull assent in any thing Which words seeme not to agree with what you add against Charity Maintayned in his N. 7. 8. that an vniversall infallibility must be granted to that meanes wherby controversyes in Faith are to be determined vnless men haue a mynd to reduce Faith to opinion of which words you say you do not perceyue how from the denyall of any of the grounds which Charity Maintayned layd it would follow that Faith is Opinion or from the granting them that it is not so For my part I do not perceyue how it was possible for you not to perceyue it since you confess that without an vniversall infallibility we could yield vnto such a meanes but wavering and fearfull assent a and what is this but opinion or a meere humane Faith As contrarily if the Meanes or Motiue for which I assent be infallible and I belieue it to be so and assent with an act proportionable to that motiue my assent must needs be certaine and infallible and not a wavering and fearfull assent If this be not so why do you require infallibility in the said meanes Certainly infallibility is not necessary to beget a wavering and fearfull assent 13. You would gladly free yourselfe of that just imputation that you confound Divine Faith with opinion But your tergiversation argues you guilty You bring I know not what parityes betwen Faith and Opinion but decline the maine difference That Divine Faith is absolutely certaine and infallible Opinion not You being conscious of your Antichristian Doctrine That Christian Faith exceeds not probability dissemble the chiefe difference which I haue declared and you will never be able to acquit yourselfe of that griēvous but just accusation that you change Divine Faith into opinion Wheras you say that as opinion so Faith admitts degrees and that as there maybe a strong and weake opinion so there may be a strong and weake Faith and add that Ch Ma if he be in his right mynd will not deny it I answer that still you sticke to your false ground that Christian Faith is not infallible Otherwise you would not make this comparison between the weakness and strength of Opinion and Faith which in its essence excludes all falshood As contrarily Opinion is not free from all feare least it be false 14. The confutation of your N. 8. about the infallibility of Christian Faith is the subject of my first Chapter and therfore I need say no more here except only to aske what you can vnderstand by these words of yours But though the essence of Faith exclude not all weakness and imperfection yet may it be enquired whether any certainty of Faith vnder the highest degree may be sufficient to please God and attaine salvation Can the very essence of Faith be weake and imperfect and yet the degrees therof be certaine in the highest degree and exclude that weakness and imperfection which the essence doth not exclude is not the whole essence of Faith in every degree or graduall perfection therof But as I sayd directly contrary to that which your words seeme to sound the very essence of Faith excludes all weaknesse that is all falshood and doubtfulnesse and every graduall entity therof includes such a certainty though one mans Faith within the compasse of the same essence may exceed the Faith of another in graduall perfections as contrarily though Opinion may haue many graduall entityes yet none of them can exclude formidinem oppositi a feare that the contrary may proue true which if any particular degree of intension did exclude it were not Opinion but a certaine knowledge and so could not be a degree of intension vnder the species or essence of Opinion but an assent essentially distinct from all Opinion 15. In your N. 9. I obserue that you do not only grant the possibility of a certainty of adherence in the will beyond the certainty of evidence in the vnderstanding but also a certainty of knowledge in the vnderstanding aboue the strength of probable Motives or Arguments of Credibility For you say they know marke this word know what they did but belieue and are as fully and resolutely assured of the Gospell of Christ as those which heard it from Christ himselfe with their eares which saw it with their eyes which looked vpon it and whose hands handled the word of life If God can do this with his Grace seing Christian Faith requires the Grace of God why do you deny that by it we are no less assured that the Objects of Faith are true than if we had seene them with our eyes c The rest of this number is answered Chap 1. 16. You are pleased N. 10. to delight yourselfe and deceiue others with a wild collection as you stile it fathered on Ch Ma being only a brood of your owne braine The case stands thus Ch Ma N. 8. hath these words Out of the Principles which I haue layd That there must be in Gods Church some meanes for deciding Controversyes in Faith and that it must be indued with an vniversall infallibility in whatsoever it propounds as spoken by God it vndeniably followes that of two men dissenting in matters of Faith the
in those Objects in which they may chance inculpably to disagree You define the Religion of Protestants to be the Bible and that all who belieue all plaine Texts therof are true Protestants and do agree in matters of Faith and therfore must agree among themselves in such Points Now I aske whether you will define matters of Faith to be those wherin Protestants agree If you say yes then I take your owne words and say this is ridiculous and as if we should say Protestants agree in those things wherin they agree If you answer No but that matters of Faith are those which are clearly contained in Scripture whether or no Protestants or any other belieue them then you both answer and confute your owne Objection and turne it against yourselfe You say it is ridiculous to say we agree in matters of Faith and are all agreed that only those things wherin we agree are matters of Faith And yet you say Protestants if they were wise would do so too which is to say Protestants if they were wise would do that which you say is ridiculous Nay according to this your wholsome advise if they will be wise they must not regard what indeed is matter of Faith as being revealed by God but only that they procure to agree among themselves and then say that they agree in matters of Faith which is to say they agree in those things wherin they do agree which is the thing you object against vs. Neverthelesse I know not well by what Logike you will inferr that we speake as if one would say we agree in those things wherin we agree vnless perhaps by some such wild Syllogisme as this All matters of Faith are those wherin we agree but we agree in all matters of Faith Therfore we agree in all those things wherin we agree as if you say every mā is a reasonable creature but every reasonable creature is a man Therfore every mā is a mā If you would to the purpose you might say whatsoever we agree in is a matter of Faith but we agree in the belief of the Trinity c. Therfore the beliefe of the Trinity c. is a matter of Faith But howsoever this be we vtterly deny that definition of Faith and leaue it to Protestants that they may be wise according to the wisdom of your advise and definition 3. To the rest of this N. 5. as also to your N. 6. I answer that you would gladly divert vs to particular disputes But it is sufficient to say in generall That whatsoever is knowne to be proposed by the Church as revealed by God is a Point of Faith in respect of him to whom it is so proposed Neither it is pertinent to this present Worke to dispute in what subject infallibility resides Let me now tell you that which may suffice for the present that those three meanes of agreement which you mention the Pope A Councell with him The vniversall Church haue never yet nor ever shall nor ever can be found to disagree And it is no fayre dealing in you to omitt what Ch ma hath concerning this matter Part 2. Chapt 5. N. 15. and 16. where he answers the objection ād discovers the falsifications of Potter in citing Catholique Authors about this point But to proue that the vniversall Church cannot be infallible or a meanes of agreement you say N. 6. And indeed what way of ending Controversyes can this be when either part may pretend that they are part of the Church and they receiue not the decree therfore the whole Church hath not received it Answer I know no man hath greater obligation to answer your Objection than yourselfe who teach that by vniversall Tradition we know Scripture to be the word of God For if one should say what way of determining what Scripture is the Word of God can this be when if any deny it they may pretend that they are part of the Church and they receiue not such or such Scriptures therfore the whole Church or vniversall Tradition hath not received them If you answer that the number or Authority of a few is not considerable in comparison or opposition to all the rest nor ought to prevaile against the contrary suffrages as you speake Pag 68. N. 43. I answer First that if the Church be fallible it is not the number but the waight of reason which ought to prevaile And secondly you cannot but see how easy it is for vs to say the same That it imports not if some who are not of consideration in respect of all the rest disagree from them But the truth is your Objection is of no force vnless you helpe it out with your wonted refuge of begging the Question and supposing the Church not to be infallible For if she be infallible whosoever oppose Her decrees and Definitions by doing so become Heretikes and cease to be members of the Church nor can pretēd that they are part of the Church and they receiue not the decree Therfore the whole Church hath not received it As I sayd aboue that Schismatiques cannot pretend to be members of the Church after their separation And this your subtility is directly against Dr. Potter Pag 57. saying Whosoever either wilfully opposes any Catholique Verity maintayned by this Church or the Catholique visible Church as doe Heretikes or perversly drvides himselfe from the Catholique Communion is doe Schismatikes the condition of both is damnable The Scriptures and Fathers cited here by the Mistaker proue this and no more and therfore prone nothing against Protestants who never denyed it Now why do you not aske your client Potter How any man can oppose the whole Church or depart from Her Communion seing they who oppose and depart may pretend that they are part of the Church and do not oppose or depart from themselves and therfore Protestants who the Doctour saith never denyed it must deny it if they will belieue you or you must deny yourselfe if you will belieue them Your N. 7.8 are meere words without any proofe and deserue no other Answer 4. Your whole N. 9. is plainly impertinent Charity Maintayned Part 1. Chap 3. N. 1. declared how Protestants are wont to abuse the distinction of Points Fundamentall and not Fundamentall to many purposes of theirs and among the rest to this That if you object their bitter and cotinued discords in matters of Faith without any meanes of agreement they instantly tell you they differ in points not Fundamentall In which words it is cleare that Ch. Ma. intends only to shew what vse Protestants make of the sayd distinction and that he speakes truth you neither do nor can deny the thing being notorious But you decline the matter and say I desire you to tell me whether they do so or doe not so that is whether they differ in points only not Fundamentall or do nor differ in them If they doe so I hope you will not find fault with the Answer But your hope
over all the Apostles and yet exercise no one act of Authority over any one of them and that they should shew to him no signe of subjection me thinks is as strang as that a King of England for twenty fine yeares should do no Act of Regality nor receiue any one acknowledgment of it 35. Answer 1. I would ask how you can assure vs that S. Peter exercised no one act of authority over any one of the Apostles vnless first you suppose not only that all points of Faith but also all matters of fact are registred in Scripture which I hope you will not say S. Luke in the Acts having set downe but a few things and of fewe 2. If you belieue Scripture you cannot doubt but that in divers occasions S. Peter exercised Actions declaring him to haue an ordinary Charg and Power proper to him It was hee who spoke first in the Apostles Councell in Hierusalem who proposed the Election of S. Matthias in warning Christians that in the writings of S. Paul there were things difficult to be vnderstood which in my opinyon deserves to be noted declaring that the charg of the whole Church was committed to him even in things relating to other Apostles who is still named in the first place and named in such manner as the rest are named as belonging to him or of his family which appeares Mark 1. Luc 8. 9. Act 2. 5. It was Hee who was wont to speak for the rest and so S. Cyrill vpon those words Joan 6. Domine ad quem ibimus saieth Per vnum qui praeerat omnes respondent But of the authority and prerogatives of S. Peter Bellarmine writes at large de Rom Pontifice Lib 1. Cap 17.18.19.20.21.22 to whom I referr the Reader 3. The Apostles being dead or dispersed no wonder if S. Peter either had no occasion of exercising Iurisdiction over them or at least there was not occasion of writing it for posterity Besides all the Apostles having jurisdictiō over the whole world which in them was extraordinary but ordinary in S. Peter and being particularly assisted by the Holy Ghost for the due performance of their office no wonder if S. Peter had no occasion of exercising his Power in order to them who wanted neither Power nor knowledg nor will to correspond to the vocation of an Apostle which consideration confutes ād retorts your similitude of a King who certainly would not be solicitous to exercise any act of regality over those who had as great Power as hee himself ād who he was assured would make the best vse of their Power if we imagine any such case in a Kingdom as de facto it was true in the Apostles of whom S. Cyprian saieth De Vnitate Ecclesiae Loquitur Dominus ad Petrum Ego tibi dico inquit quia tu es Petrus super istam Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam portae inferorum non vincent eam Et tibi dabo claves regnicoelorum quae ligaveris super terram erunt ligata in coelis quaecumque solveris super terram erunt soluta in coelis Et iterum eidem post Resurrectionem suam dicit Pasce Oves meas Super illum vnum aedificat Ecclesiam suam illi pascendas mandat oves suas Et quamvis Apostolis omnibus post Resurrectionem suam parem potestatem tribuat dicat Sicut misit me Pater ego mitto vos accipite Spiritum Sanctum Si cui remiseritis peccata remittentur illi Si cui retinueritis tenebuntur tamen vt vnitatem manifestaret vnam cathedram constituit vnitatis ejusdem originē ab vno incipientē sua authoritate disposuit Hoc erant vtique caeteti Apostoli quod fuit Petrus pari consortio praediti honoris potestatis sed exordium ab vnitate proficiscitur Primatus Petro datur vt vna Christi Ecclesia cathedra vna monstretur Behold how the Apostles had jurisdiction over the whole world though in a different manner from that according to which it was conferred vpon S. Peter to descend to his Successours 36. Secondly You object As strang it is that you so many ages after should know this so certainly and that the Apostles should be so ignorant that S. Peter was Head of the rest as to question which of them should be the greatest after that those words were spoken in their hearing by vertue wherof S. Peter is pretended to haue been made their Head yet more strange that our Saviour should not bring them out of their error by telling them S. Peter was the man but rather confirme it by saying the Kings of the Gentils exercise authority over them but it should not be so among them Answer It is more strange that you should make this objection who teach that the Apostles even after the receiving of the Holy Ghost having had an expresse revelation and commād from our Saviour were doubtfull whether they ought to preach to the Gentills For if they might erre in Faith and practice notwithstanding so direct a revelation and precept how can you wonder that before the receiving of the Holy Ghost they might contend among themselves which of them were the greater although our Saviour had promised to build his Church vpon S. Perer and why do you not say against yourself it is strang that you so many ages after should know the Apostles did erre in that matter Besides Bellarmine de Romano Pontifice Lib 1. cap 28. demonstrates both by testimonyes of Fathers and Scriptures that S. Peter was not with the other Apostles in that contention of theirs which of them was the greater and so cannot be sayd to haue been ignorant of his owne authority which our Saviour had promised Matth 16. and actually conferred Joan 21. Yea perhaps the Apostles did propose to themselves some temporall kinde of glory or kingdome as the mother of S. James and S. John did when she petitioned our Saviour that one of her sonnes might sit at the right hand the other at the left in his Kingdome and did not thinke of being Head of the spirituall Kingdome of Christs Militant Church According to which consideration it is no wonder If our Saviour should not bring them out of their errour by telling them S. Peter was the man seing indeed he was no such man in order to a temporall Kingdome but rather confirmed it by saying the Kings of the Gentils exercise authority over them but it should not be soe among them Which sacred advice had been also good and necessary though their contention had been about their preeminence in the Church which to seeke ambitiously is evill though the thing to which they pretend be good And seing our Saviour was afterward to commit the charge of the whole Church to S. Peter in expresse termes by a triple injunction of Pasce oves meas Feed my sheep Joan 21. his divine wisdome thought fit Matth 18. to giue them that holy
she proposes you would not haue wanted evasions by saying we should belieue her as far as she agreed with Scripture or in Fundamentall points only as now Protestants say of the vniversall Church 16. Ch Ma Pag 251. N. 18. sayth The Holy Scriptures and ancient Fathers assigne separation from the visible Church as a marke of Heresy which he proves by some textes of Scripture as 1. Joan 2.19 They went out from vs And Actor 15.24 Some went out from vs and Actor 20.30 Out of you shall arise men speaking perverse things This say you is certainly a strange and vnheard of straine of Logick vnless we will say that euery text whe in it is sayd that some body goes out from some body affoards an argument for this purpos and yet you confesse that Hereticks doe alwayes separate from the visible Church but that they who doe soe are not alwayes Heretiks Now if all Heretiks separate from the visible Church ād yet doe not separate from every some body for they doe not separate from themselves and their owne Associates it is a signe that their is great difference betwixt some some body and orhers some body betweene separating from the Church or the Congregation of the Faithfull and frō every other some body But if I proue these propositions every Heretik separates from the Church and every one that separates from the Church is an Heretik to be convertible you will yeald such a separation to be a Mark of Heresy This is easily done by taking your owne grant That Heretiks do always separate from the Church For Heresy being an error against some revealed truth if the Church also may erre against any such truth there is no necessity that an Heretik should separate from the Church but may very well agree with her in such error and so the first part of your assertion that Heretiques do alwayes separate from the Church would be false or if the Church cannot erre every one who separates from her in matters of Faith must be guilty of an errour against Faith and so be an Heretik if therfore the first part of your assertion be true you must grant that the second is false and that as every Heretik separates from the Church so conversivè every one who separates from the Church in matters of beliefe is an Heretik and then it is no wonder if Scripture and Fathers assigne a separation or going out of the Church as a mark of Heresy Which may be further declared in this manner If all Heretiks separate from the Church the reason must be because there is in the Church something incompatible with their Heresy which can be nothing but the true Doctrine and Beliefe which she holds and is opposite to the error which makes thē Heretiks and which whosoever hold are Heretiks and consequently whosoever leaves the Church by occasion of such errors are Heretiks and if they had not held such errors they had remained in the Church Therefore for the same reason for which all Heretiks forsake the Church we must necessarily inferr that whosoever forsake the Churches doctrine are Heretiks that is for the errors which they hold against the truth which the Church is supposed to belieue and if she be supposed to belieue an error an heretique may belieue the same and so goe out of her no more than she goes out of herself For this cause our Saviour saied Matth. 24.26 If therefore they shall say vnto you behold he is in the desert goe you not forth Of which words Henoch Clapham in his souveraigne remedy against Schisme Pag 23. sayth that therby our Saviour forbids going out vnto such desert and corner Ghospells which declares that going out of the Church is Heresy or Schisme and not only that all Heretiks or Schismaticks goe out And now I hope you being convinced by Reason will be better disposed to receiue authority and the true exposition of the text alleadged aboue by Ch Ma of which you say For the first place there is no certainty that it speakes of Heretiks but no Christians and Antichrists of such as denyed Iesus to be the Christ Answer That S. John speakes of Heretiks will appeare by reading Cornelius a Lapide vpon this psace who cites holy Fathers to the same purpos See also the annotation of the Rhemes Testament vpon this Chapter of S. John Uers 18. shewing out of S. Cypriā that all who separate themselves from the Church are called without exception Antichrists Pantaleon in Epist nuncupator Chrongraph saith Tertium locum assignabimus Haereticis qui exierunt de electo Dei populo at non erant ex illo And in Osiander Epitom Histor Ecclesias cent 1. lib 3. cap 1. saith Nota Haereticiex Ecclesia progrediuntur 17. The second place say you It is certaine you must not say it speakes of Heretiks for it speakes only of some who believed and taught an error when it was yet a question and not evident and therfor according to your Doctrine no formall Heresy Answer I see no such certainty as you pretend that the text Act 15.24 Some went out from vs must not speake of Heretiks that is of persons who held an errour against a revealed truth of which some might haue been sufficiently informed before the Councell and Definition or Declaration of the Apostles and that some did proceed in a turbulent and as a man may say Hereticall manner appeares by reading the same Chapter in the Acts. And for our present purpose it is sufficient that separation from the Church is a signe at least of a materiall Heresie or Heretique since the being a formall Heretique depends vpon individuall personall and accidentall circumstances of which to judg in particular is the part of prudence not of Faith though if once the partie know that his opinyon is contrary to the Doctrine of the Church and will yet persist therin and rather leaue the Church than forsake it he cannot be excused from pride singularity and Heresie 18. You say The third sayes indeed that of the Professours of Christianity some shall arise that shall teach Heresy But not one of them all that sayes or intimates that whosoever separates from the visible Church in what state soever is certainly an Heretique Answer we haue shewed that as you say all that are Heretiques goe out of the Church so you must grant that whosoever separates for matter of Doctrine from the visible Church is an Heretique And holy Scripture mentioning so particularly and frequently going out or separation doth clearly put a particular emphasis and force therin as a mark of fals believers and seducers And this to be the sense of the Holy Fathers Ch Ma. hath proved and now we will make good his Proofes by confuting your evasions to the contrary And I must intreate the Reader to consider the words of the Fathers as they are cited in Charity Maintayned with the Inferences which he deduces from them and not as they are interpreted by you 19.
as if the certainty of attayning an end did exclude Meanes of Exhortations Praier and the like or as if God could not effectually moue vs to what he best pleases vnless he also make vs belieue that we may tempt him by omitting all diligence of our owne towards the attaining of that to which he moves vs or interposes a Promise that he will grant it vs. You say if we belieue the Fathers of the Councell of Chalcedon the Prerogatiue of the Church of Rome of being the principall Church was grounded vpon this reason because the City was the principall and imperiall Citie But I conceiue yourself cannot belieue that the Greek Church would or could yeald such a spirituall Prerogatiue to the Latine Church vpoÌ„ so slight a ground though that might be a kind of congruence supposing an other higher and stronger Reason to wit that S. Peter had lived and died Bishop of that Citie which was as I may saie the Primate of Cities Yet I am not sorie to heare you say We do not altogether deny but that the Church of Rome might be called the chaire of Peter in regard he is sayd to haue preached the Gospell there For to omit that you dare not deny that S. Peter was at Rome which some Protestants impudently deny you giue so poore a reason why the Church of Rome hath bene particularlie by the Fathers called the chaire of Peter that every one may see there must be some better ground for it than that which you alledge of his preaching in that Citie as it is graÌ„ted that he not only preached in but was Bishop of the Citie of Antioch and he preached in many other places which yet are not wont to be called the Chaire of Peter I beseech the Reader to peruse that learned Book called Anti-Mortonus against the GraÌ„d imposture of D. Morton § 4. about the Councell of Chalcedon aÌ„d he will find what Power was acknowledged to be in the Bishop of Rome aboue all Bishops through the whole world to say nothing for the present that no Councell without the confirmatioÌ„ of the Pope is of validity 26. Your N. 28. 29. 30. containe long discourses vpon occasion of a place cited by Ch. Ma. out of S. Irenaeus who Lib. 3. Cont. Hoeres Chap 36. saieth Because it were long to number the successions of all Churches we declaring the Tradition of the most great most ancient and most knowne Church founded by the most glorious Apostles Peter and Paul which Tradition it hath from the Apostles comming to vs by succession of Bishops confound all those who any way either by evill complacence of themselves or vaine glory or by blindness or ill opinion do gather conventicles otherwise then they ought For to this Church for a more powerfull principality it is necessary that all Churches resort that is all faithfull people of what place soever in which Roman Church the Tradition which is from the Apostles hath alwayes beene conserved from those who are every where 27. To this authority of S. Irenaeus you giue divers answers which vpon examination will be found insufficient and contrary to yourself You say the words set downe by Ch Ma shew that what Authority in the matter S. Irenaeus attributed to the Roman Church in particular the same for the kind though pâ—rhaps not in the same degree he attributed to all other Apostolique Churches Answer S. Irenaeus is so farre from affirming an equality betwene the Roman and other Churches that he expresly prefers her before the rest in such manner as though the rest had then had no Being yet all Heretiques might haue bene confuted by her sole authority For seing he acknowledges it needless to number the successions of other Churches in order to the force of his Argument he might as well haue supposed them not to exist as not to be necessarily taken notice of which he never saied of any other Apostolique Church Beside since he takes the Roman for as good as all other Apostolique Churches and for the same reason of all other Churches of that tyme whose successours he held it needless to reckon it being impossible that all Churches should faile in Faith we must conclude even out of S. Irenaeus his Reason that the Roman Church cannot faile in points of Belief And as for you I wonder how you would end your N. 28. in these words If v. Irenaeus thought the Testimony of the Roman Church in this point only humane and fallible then surely he could never think either adhering to it a certain marke of a Catholique or separation from it a certain marke of a Heretique For seing Cyou hold hristian Faith te be no more than probable and that the Tradition for which you receyue Scripture is humane and fallible how can you these your assertions supposed affirme that a testimony humane and fallible may not be sufficient to proue one a Catholique or Heretique Vnless you will say he is no Heretique who rejects Scripture and all Christianity nor that he is a Catholique who believes them because you profess that the motives for which you belieue them are fallible 28. You find fault with the noble Translatresse of Cardinall Perron for rendring Ad hane Ecclesiam necesse est omnem convenire Ecclesiam To this Church it is necessary that every Church should agree But if you will but consult Cowpers Dictionary you will find that you haue no reason against that noble Translatresse See I say the word Conveni and you will finde Convenit in eum haec Contumelia Cic. This reproach toucheth him justly Conveniunt hae vites ad quemvis agrum Cato Uarro These vines proue well in all grounds Conveniebat in tuam vaginam machaera militis Plautus The solidours sword was meete for thy Scabbard Convenit optime ad pedem cothurnus Cic. The slippar is as meete for the foote as may be Will you say This reproach resorts to him vines resort to the field the sword resorts to the scabbard the slippar resorts to the foote Neither is that Translation either contrary or different from the Translation of Ch Ma for as much as concernes the matter and meaning of S. Irenaeus To this Church it is necessary that all Churches resort For why should all Churches resort to this Roman Church but that they may be instructed by her and agree with her in matters concerning Faith not that they may correct controll and disagree from her Otherwise it had bene a strang Argument to convince Heretiques by the Roman Church if he had not taken that Church as a modell and Rule with which they ought to agree Neither doth resort signify a corporall going to Rome but a recourse for instruction either by going thither themselves or by other meanes as you must say of those who are round about But you say if S. Irenaeus had saied By shewing the tradition of the Roman Church we confound all Heretiques For to this Church all Churches must agree what had
errour should chance to creepe into it the Church can never make vse of that errour And therfor to treate here at large of this particular Translation would be a labour both fruitless and needless divers Catholique Divines having learnedly done it and every one may goe to Bellarmin de Uerbo Dei Lib 2. Cap 9.10.11.12.13.14 where he answers all the Objections of Heretikes 42. To exaggerate the vncertainty of Baptisme and consequently of Absolution N. 64. you will needs suppose that A sew a More an Atheist or an Arian or any that believes not the Doctrine of the Trinity are not capable of having due intention for administring Baptisme which yet is very vntrue For such men as these notwithstanding their particular Errours may seriously intend to do as much as they can and as Christians are wont to doe in which case if they obserue the true Matter and Forme their Errours haue no influence into their intention but are wared and layd aside as if they were not at all For in effect their intention is this If Christian Religion be true or if this Action of Baptizing be of any valve I for my part intend to make of it the most and best I can Now this condition being true and subsisting it followes that that Action will be a true baptizing This me thinkes you should not deny who were knowen to be an Anti-trinitarian and Arian and yet I conceyve you wold be loath that Catholikes or Protestāts should belieue that if you baptized any the Baptisme was invalid and of necessity to be repeated The like I say of Absolution which may be valid though the Priest be in his mynd an Heretike vpon such conditions as I expressed concerning the Administration of Baptisme You say N. 66. that our Rule is Nihil dat quod non habet which is true in some cases but we haue no such generall Rule A Catechume for example or any other may validly Baptise though himself be not Baptized And no wonder seing the Minister is but the instrument of Allmighty God and it is not required that an instrument haue in it self all the perfections conditions or qualityes which are communicated to the effect although in our present case the Minister immediatly only applyes the Matter and forme and makes his intention all which is in his power to doe thoughe be not Baptized 43. You say N. 68. That according to our Principles When we haue done as much as God requires for our salvation yet can we by no meanes be secure but that we may haue the ill luck to be damned which is to make salvation a matter of chance and which a man may faile of not only by an ill life but by ill fortune 44. This I haue answered already that to be secure is a happyness of the next not of this world where he who pretends to be secure is in most danger not to be safe And besides I must apply here what I noted aboue That it is one thing whether or no a Sacrament be valid and another whether the defect of that invalidity may be supplyed by some other Meanes If the nullity be of a Sacrament the effect wherof is not necessary to salvation it is cleare that one may be saved though the Sacrament be invalid The difficulty is in those Sacraments which as Divines speake are necessary necessitate medij being ordained to conferr the first justifying Grace and forgiue deadly sin incompatible with Grace Of this condition are the Sacraments of Pennance and Baptisme 45. As for the Sacrament of Pennance the Doctrine of Catholikes is not subject to cast men vpon perplexityes as you pretend nor to make salvation a matter of chance which a man may fayle of not only by an ill life but by ill fortune For we teach that sin alone is the cause of damnation and neither ill fortune nor any thing els If one in state of deadly sin were taken out of this world by a suddain death or fall out of his wits so vnexpectedly that he could not repent he shall be damned not for any new sin committed by omitting to repent which was not in his power to doe in those circumstances but for his former sins committed and never forgiven because never repented as if one having committed a robery endeavour to fly but faile of his purpose he shall be executed for his robery not for failing to escape though he had not bene executed if he had not bene taken in his endeavour to escape And therfor you say very vntruly that according to our Principles when we haue done as much as God requires for our salvation yet we may haue the all luck to be damned For according to our Principles and belief God requires for our salvation that we do not sin but that we keepe his commandements which by the assistance of his Grace all may obserue and if we do so we are very secure 46. But you will say if one haue sinned and afterward do as much as God requires of him for his salvation he may haue the ill lucke to be damned Answer God hath provided Meanes sufficient on his part and if by accident or malice of men they haue not their effect that defect cannot be imputed to God nor shall ever any man be damned except for sin alone This yourself must grant For you belieue or pretend to belieue that there are some Points of Faith so Fundamentall and indispensably necessary to be believed that they are as you say minimum vt sic without which none can hope for salvation Suppose then some Pastour or other vpon whom an vnlearned man might prudently rely and had no better meanes to informe himself should malitiouslly teach him an errour in those Fundamentall Articles or els say they were not necessary and that the vnlearned person believed his Pastour I aske what would you say in this case Can this poore man be saved without that Faith which is indispensably necessary to Salvation To say he can were to speake plaine contradictoryes that such a Faith were and were not necessary if he be damned will you inferr that when one hath done as much as God requires for his salvation yet he is not secure but may haue the ill lucke to be damned which say you is to make salvation a matter of chance and which a man may faile of not only by an ill life but by ill fortune If you answer That he is damned not for ignorance or errour caused by the malice of an other but for his owne sinnes and that God had provided meanes sufficient in themselves you make good what I sayd and must Answer your owne chiefe Objection against vs Or if you answer further That if he who fayled in not believing all Fundamentall Points had in his former life and Actions cooperated with Gods Grace His Divine Goodness would not haue fayld one way or other to giue him Direction and light without permitting him to be deceyved in a matter