potest The Church because it relyeth not on reason but on the diuine authoritie prouidence and assistance and hath it infalliblie promised vnto her can in no sort or manner nullo modo determine besides the truth or erroneouslie or against God Whence it followes as before that if the Church doth applie her testimonie vnto any booke auouching and publikelie declaring it to be scripture or to any proposiâ—ion determining it to be a point of â—aith and proposing it vnto the world for such there can be accorâ—ing to this author no further queâ—tion made of it since the diuine â—rouidence doth so guide her that â—n such definitions she in no sort â—an iudge erroneouslie or determine â—esides the truth â— Neither is this integritie in deâ—â—nition violated or our sauiours promise of assistance broken if not in matter of diuine beleefe such as â—or the good of his Church God â—ath reuealed but in i Longè aliter se habent quaestiones istae quas esse praeâ—er fidem arbitratur Celestius quà m sunt illae in quibus â—lua fide qua Christiani sumus aut ignoratur quid verum 〈◊〉 sententia definitiua suspenditur aut aliter quam est â—umana infirma suspicione conijcitur Velâ—â—â— cum quaeâ—â—tur qualis vel vbi sit Paradâ—sus cum tamen esse illum â—aradisum fides Christiana non dubitet Vel cum quaeriâ—r vbi nunc sit Elias c. vel cùm quaeritur vtrum in corâ—ore vel extra corpus in terâ—ium caelum sit raptus Apoâ—olus c. vel quot sunt Caeli c. vel vtrum elementa â—undi huius conspicabilis quatuor an plura sint c. vbi â—otuit Methusalem viuere c. Quis non sentiat in his atâ—e huiusmodi varijs innumerabilibus quaestionibus sine ad â—bscurissima opera Dei siue ad Scripturarum abditissiâ—as latebras pertinentibus quas certo aliquo generâ— complecti ac definire difficile est multa ignorari salua Christiana fide alicubi errari sine aliquo haeretici dogmatis crimine S. Aug. li. 2. cont Pelag. Celest. c. 23. vide Canum li. 5. c. 5. qq 3. 4. 5. other questions which it hath not pleased him by reuelation to discouer as where is Elias where Paradice how many heauens c. not in definition and attestation but in some particular * It is one thing to argue out of reuealed principles and another thing to argue out of others Of this later kind of deduction I speake heere deduction and coniecture she doth inferre amisse Not euerie consequence orillation not euerie thing syllogisticallie inferd out of premises in matter of that nature hath infallibilitie according to this Author but the definitions and decrees all haue it If you knowe not yet the difference betwixt the one and the other you may reade him or Canus or looke vpon the Acts of the Councells where you may with litle studie discerne it If it be replied that in his fourth Controuersie he seemes to limit and contract the obiect of assistance to points onlie fundamentall excluding all other I answer that euen k Docendi infallibilitas in causa fidei Ecclesiae data taÌ„tummodo in illis fidei dogmatibus infallibiliter definiendis fideli populo ceâ—ta veritate tradeÌ„dis locum habet quae vel in coÌ„trouersiam vocantur vel alioqui ad publicaÌ„ Ecclesiae fidem necessariò pertinent Staplet fid doc li. 8. c. 15. Quando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertineÌ„t c. vel non ad publicum aliquod commune dogma explicandum quod vel omnes fideles explicitè crederè debent vel in publico religionis vsu versatur vel saltem maiores explicitè credere tenentur populus autem implicitè in maiorum fide sed ad priuatam alicuius c. Ibidem there he doth extend it to all points of faith which either are called into controuersie at any time wherein the Church is or otherwise doe necessarilie appertaine to the publike faith of the Church In which compasse is contained all that is in the Councell of Trent defined against you or in any other oecumenicall Councell proposed to be beleeued Your masters Luther Caluin and others called into question diuers things appertaining and intrinsecallie as parts to the substance or obiect of diuine faith and publike exercise of Religion as bookes of holie scripture iustification Sacraments and the Masse And therefore if according to Stapleton the Churches infallibilitie doth reach vnâ—â— all points of faith called into question it is according to the same tenet extended vnto these which he beleeued so to pertaine to faith But in questions that are impertineÌ„t or * Such as some aboue pag. 97. litter i. in marg indifferent or that appertaine onlie to the direction of some one that is weake in iudgment and in some priuate case or to the satisfaction of some proude mans curiositie to conclude in questions that appertaine to the explicatioÌ„ of those things which are appendices additions rather then contained in or appertaining to the substance of faith if the Church should mistake it were not he thinks any preiudice to the graunt of assistance or the promised infallibilitie not if in matter of this nature she should affirme or discoursing as a Diuine which in her examination of difficulties otherwhile she doth should inferre and logicallie l Vel asserendo vel etiam concludendo Ibidem conclude amisse But to make a publike decree of that which is false and propose it openlie to be beleeued of Christians as matter of faith that she cannot being in her publike decrees 〈◊〉 definition infallible as you heard him saie before And the same he hath proued at large both by Scripture and Theologicall reasons in diuers m Doc. fi li 8. c 12. 13 Relect. cont 3. q 4 cont 4. q. 2. alibi places of his booke §. IX 1. Saint Augustine will not haue any other bookes equalled with Scripture in authoritie 2. Other witnesses or testimonies of other nature then that of Scripture and not recommended by it or by the author of it wee be not obliged to in that manner as wee are obliged to beleeue the Scripture 3. The comparison of Scripture with other writings in authoritie His forbearing to presse an Arian with the authoritie of the Councell of Nice 4. The Donatists refusing to yeild vnto the authoritie of the whole Church Catholike and consequentlie of her Councells too and admitting Scripture he doth challeng them to shew there the decision of the Controuersie which was betwixt them and him 5. He did both auouch and relie vpon the authoritie of plenarie Councells esteeming them to be in their decrees of faith infallible What mending that is which he speakes of EGo solis eis Scriptorum qui iam caâ—onici appellantur didics hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum scribendo errasse audeam credere
by occasion of your discourse in the Councell of Chalcedon six hundred Fathers together acknowledging diuine assistance to the Nicene so farre that the Decrees they said could not be retracted without 1 Si ergo Spiritus SaÌ„ctus coÌ„sedit Patribus vt manifeste consedit ordinauit que ordinata sunt qui retractat ea Spiritus Sancti cassat gratiam SaÌ„cta Synodus dixit Omnes haec dicimus Anathema qui retractat Conc. Chalced. Acti 1. making void the grace of the Holie Ghost And others accordinglie saie they were 2 S. Leo Epist 53. 54. vide etiam S. Aug. li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. diuinelie ordained 3 Si quis fidem illam à saÌ„cta magna Synodo optimè diuino afflatu definitaÌ„ ac expositam dicere voluerit basim animarum nostraruÌ„ fundamentum que inconcussum munitum is vtique probatissime loquitur Lib. 1. de Trinit apud Cyrill Alexand Suis auteÌ„ verbis à nobis scribatur diuinuÌ„ sanctissimum Synodi illius Oraculum IbideÌ„ Vide S. Ambros li. 1. de Fide ad Gratian. oracles of faith It sufficeth to make instance in that one being the first oecumenicall that was celebrated after the Apostles daies to shewe that it stopped not in them but was continued after their the Apostles time vnto the Church And in like manner it was affoorded afterwards to the second and the third and fourth the decrees of which 4 li. 1 Regest Epist 24. Quintum quoque Concilium pariter veâ—eror Ibidem S. Gregorie our Apostle did honour as the Gospels and so also to the rest by vertue of one and the same Promise made absolutelie to the Church Vpon which promise that also of the Apostles did relie as before hath been obserued Moreouer the Fathers held that the definitioÌ„s of oecumenicall CouÌ„cells might not be called into a Conc. Chalc. acti 1. anathema â—â—qui reâ—ractat De rebus apud NicaeaÌ„ apud Chalcedonam definitis nulluÌ„ audemus inire tractatum tanquaÌ„ dubia vel infirma sint quae tanta per Spiritum sanctuÌ„ fixit authoritas S. Leo epist. 78. vbi plura in eandem sententiam doubt that they were rather to loose their b S. Ambros epist 32. S. Hier. contra Luciferian liues then to denie them that those who did oppugne them were c Nullo modo fieri potest vt qâ—i diuinis aâ—dent contradicere sacramentis aliqua nobis communioâ—e socientur S. Epist 78. Patâ—facieÌ„tes in omnibus probantes non esse omnino inter Catholicos computandos qui definitiones venerabilis Synodi Nicenae vel sancti ChalcedoneÌ„sis Concilij regulas noÌ„ sequuntur Ibidem not Catholikes but d S. August de Haeres nu 69. S. Basil epist. 78. S. Athanas epist ad Epict. Vincent Lyri c. 41. heretikes And the Councels themselues did e Conc Nice Ephesin c. anathematize all that reiected or dissented from them Now by these anathematismes and excommunications by the deepe censure and branding with the note of Heresie by the deniall of the name of Catholike to such as did stubbornelie contradict oecumenicall definitions by the knowne custome of the Pastors in all ages and cases of greatest difficultie when soeuer they could with safetie meete in Councell to define sub anathemate and to oblige all to conformitie without further dispute or doubt they being the men whom our Sauiour hath giuen to teach his people and establish theÌ„ in the truth by the generall obedience of the Symbolicall or vniuersall Church in all times to the Pastors so teaching manifested in their acceptation of such Decrees and conformable profession of the faith by the esteeme which holie Fathers had of Councells whereof in Saint Augustine I gaue an instance in the case of S. Cyprian and by the Apostles practice in regard and contemplation of the promise together with their reall interpretation of it the meaning of those words The Spirit of truth shall teach you all truth and He gaue Pastors and Doctors that wee be not wauering or borne about with euerie winde of doctrine is so discouered and the tradition of assistance and direction afforded to Councels oecumenicall in their decrees of faith so confirmed that a weaker sight then yours may discerne it You may further call to minde that the Councels wherein the Controuersies betwixt the Protestants and vs are defined be receaued by the whole Church and by it vniuersallie approued Wherefore had any of those you name told you that an oecumenicall Councell might mistake and erre the decrees of faith made in these Councels as in that of Trent for example had still beene according to their iudgment notwithstanding to be admitted because the Vniuersall Church hath receaued and approued them And you opposing them do oppose not a Councell onlie but the Catholike and Vniuersall Church and the Spirit in her the Spirit of truth remaining in and with her to teach her all truth That this is the Catholike Church and not yours nor the whole companie of such as professe themselues Christians as it includes both the Orthodox and Hereticks you see proued and defended f Disp of the Church elswere If your Spirit be disposed to contradict it bring your Catalogue of men that held your Articles all men purelie Orthodox according to the new straine without any defect or superstruction whose tenents intirelie be * The Vniuersalitie of the Church and the long Communion of the Graecians and other Nations with it is demonstrated at large by C. Baronius in his Annals and briefelie in the Disputation of the Church pag. 145. 146. 147. 148. By the Church thus Vniuersall in her flourishing time the Nestorian and Eutychean Heresies which made against the fundamentall articles of Christianitie and the coÌ„mon Creede were you know coÌ„demned and such as abbetted theÌ„ were cut of froÌ„ CoÌ„munion lawfullie and oecumenicallie in the Councels of Ephesus and Chalcedon Wherefore in the Catalogue which you are to make do not put vnder the titles of Orthodox or Members of the Catholike Communion any Nations or People howeuer great approuing and maintaining either of these Errours Such as were the Nestorians Armenians Iacobites Abassins and Aegyptians or Cophti as appeares by Photius Damascen Euthymius Nicephorus Prateolus Guido Baronius Miraeus Godignus and others Neither can you challeng them as yours when they were re-vnited to the Church and See of Rome as the Grecians Armenians and others were in the Councell of Florence Acta Conc. Flor. in Decreto Eugen. Aemilius Platina Chalcondas Gordonus See also Miraus Not. Episc li. 1. c. 18. but you must finde a time when they neither held with vs nor abbetted either of the foresaid Heresies but were entirelie Protestant or Orthodox in your sence And the Catalogue must represent vnto vs in all Ages some of these so many as may challeng from all other Communities the title of the Catholike and Vniuersall Church If you looke vpon the whole aggregation of Christian Churches that euer were in the world before Luther you shall finde the Societie of beleeuers in Communion with the See of Rome to be without all Controuersie the greatest and most Vniuersall And that Arians Nestorians Iacobites Armenians and others going out of it to subsist by themselues neuer could arriue any of them to that Vniuersalitie Where you will finde or feigne your ProtestaÌ„t more Vniuersall Congregation or of what kind of men or what fantoms rather it doth consist wee shall know when your descriptioÌ„ of the Spaces Imaginarie comes out in print What is to be obserued in the drawing of your Catalogue hath beene partlie told you in the Disp lib. 1. c. 1. 2. 3. 4. currant there and iustified by you their children and this continuallie euer since the Apostles daies with Pastors lawfullie ordained Proue that yours was and that ours was not the Church which hath celebrated Councels condemned Heresies conuerted Nations c. Meane while and euer for this taske will be neuer donne wee do securelie subscribe to the Decrees of Councels oecumenicall approued and receaued generallie by that CoÌ„munitie out of which your Father Luther went and do not doubt at all to imbosome our selues in that Church which by SuccessioÌ„s of Bishops froÌ„ the See Apostolike hath euen to the acknowledgment and confession of mankind obtained the top of Authoritie Hereticks in vaine barking round about and condemned partlie by the iudgment of the very multitude or common people partlie by the grauitie of Councels and partlie by the maiestie of miracles To which Church not to giue the prize it is verilie either extreame impietie or foole-hardie presumption
dicens Eccâ—â—go vobiscum sum omnibus diebus Non dixit recum sum sc cum aliqua singulari persona sed vobiscum sum cum toâ—a Ecclesia Catholica Apostolica quae seduci non potest â—ec seducere habet fidele testimonium de Christo noâ—it omnia mysteria Sponsi sui cap. 19. vide etiam suprà pag. 49. certaine testimonie to the truth Wee cannot addresse our selues to the Predestinate for instruction â—or absolution for orders wee know not who they be nor how to finde theÌ„ out They be not the Symbolicall * wickliffs Argument The predestinate do perseuer in the faith Ergo they be the Symbolicall Church Is like this A mans soule is rationall Ergo a mans soule is a man Church they haue not all â—he conditions of it Neither is any â—articular Church or Congregation The Church symbolicall no not a Geâ—erall Councell A Councell is not â—till in being they be celebrated only sometimes whereas the Symbolicall Church is to be still So likewise is the Church diffused or Vniuersall Dan. 2. Matth. 16. Ioan. 14. Ephes 4. And against a Councell or a particular Church he that were disposed to cauill would pretend that faith were not allwaies in it and it therefore at that time no Church for Ecclesia is fidelium congregatio whereas the Church symbolicall is in 〈◊〉 times neuer failing which thing notwithstanding doth agree well vnto the Church vniuersall which is in 〈◊〉 times existent and in faith indeficient Esay 59. Ierem. 31. Ezech. 37. Dan. 1 Matth. 16. 28. Ioan. 14. 16. Tiâ— 1. ep 3. c. Ephes 4. She only hath * The predestinated preciselie haue them not all See the Disp li. 1. c. 5. 6. 7. li. 2 c. 2. 3 li. 3. c. 1. 6. 〈◊〉 the conditions of and indeed is thâ— symbolicall Church This construction of the wordâ— of Waldensis to one that reads thâ— whole discourse in him is plaiâ— and obuious This which hetherto I haue described This I saie thâ— Catholik and Apostolicall Church 〈◊〉 Christ the mother of beleeuing people which hath faith indeficient accordinâ— to the promise of Christ to Peter 〈◊〉 â—hen did beare the figure of the Church I haue asked for thee Peter that thy faith doth not faile is the symbolicall Church Hauing established this tenet he presentlie drawes from it an inference Non est ergo c. that being the vniuersall Church it is not anie particular as the African or the Roman particular Church or Dioces vide Disput pag. 619. ex Innoc 3. These are no more the symbolicall Church then particulars are the vniuersall Neither it is a generall synod such haue erred sometimes one at Ariminum another at Constantinople and some others But it is the Catholik Church of Christ dispersed ouer all the world come downe from the baptisme of our Sauiour by the Apostles and others their successors to thâ—se times which Catholik Church verilie doth containe veram fidem true faith there is one thing required to the Symbolicall Church and that which Wickleff also thought necessarie but that is not all and testimonium Christi fidele the faithfull testimonie of Christ there is an other and the exercise of both followes giuing wisdome to the litle ones amongst extreame errours retaining the truth firme The Deuil by wickleff suggested pestilent inuentions to abbet Rebellion and Schisme Praescitus non habetpotestatem c. Nullus est Dominus ciuilis nullus est Praelatus nullus est Episcopus dum est in peccato mortali Recitantur in Concilio Constant Sess 8. apud Wald. passim See aboue pag. 50. lit r. Here is the sence of his words to the full and for my part I see no more in them But you that can gase vpon chimeraes would persuade vs there are two things for your purpose the one that the Church of Rome may faile or erre and the other that no Generall Councells haue infallibilitie The former of these you ground vpon that part of his inference nec vtique particularis illa Romana neither also is it the particular Roman Church the later vpon those other quam Synodum aliquoties errasse percepimus c. which Synod wee haue vnderstood sometimes to haue erred as that of Ariminum gathered vnder Taurus the Prefect and that Constantinopolitan vnder Iustinian the yonger and some other These two parcels then and his opinion in these two points are next to be considered I take them in order 5. Nec vtique aa Suprà ad lit q. particularis illâ— Romana The forme of speach is negatiue and the author by it denieâ— something of the Roman Church aâ— â—s a particular Church the Queâ—on since you will needs make a â—estion of it is Whether he denies â—o be the Symbolicall Church as it â—eares he doth by what hath â—ne said of this place hetherto or â—ether he denies it perpetuall conâ—ncie in the faith and indefectibiliâ— In answer to which question if â—u turne to the 48. Chapter whose â—e is de praerogatiua perpetuae immuâ—atis Romanae Ecclesiae in fide Christi â—ab omni bb contagione haeresis illibatae Locus ergo vnde fluxit ab exordio sapientia Chriâ—na Romana est Ecclesia Ab hac enim praestatur huâ—nae inertiae dirigendae assistriâ— sapientia sedium diuinaâ—n vt nobiscum sit nobiscum laboret vt sciamus quid â—eptum sit coram Deo omni tempore Walden to 1. li. c. 48. Quomodo erit vna fides quando pro captu suo â—squisque varia meditatur inuenit nisi vno magistro â—ante vnus doceat paedagogus Ille puta quem ad hoc â—cium prae caeteris Christus elegit dum diceret Ego rogaâ—ro te Petre vt non deficiat fides tua Ibidem Et quid miâ— si Christo rogante Romana Ecclesia non potest in fide â—cere non est magnum Haeretice non est magnum vt â—od per se caderet Christo sustentante non possit cadere â—dem Ergo audacter dico in Christi nomine Christo â—ante Romanam Ecclesiam in doctrina Christi esse imâ—cabilem Ibidem Interrogat quis vnde Romanae Eccleâ— tanta authoritas Mihi videtur ex concessione Chriâ— ad confessionem Petri primi Pontificis Primus enim confessor fuit diuinae generationis c. quomodo ergo 〈◊〉 dubijs fidei ad illam de fide consulendam non curritur 〈◊〉 per quam totam Ecclesiam suam Christus fundasse coâ—uincitur Ibidem you shall finde auouched anâ— proued that Ecclesia Romana non pâ—test in fide deficere the Church 〈◊〉 Rome cannot faile in the faith Aâ— further I affirme boldlie in the naâ— of Christ and Christ aiding the Româ— Church that it is in the doctrine 〈◊〉 Christ impeccable The origen of thâ— he refers there to our Sauiouâ— prayer and his graunt and conclâ—ding the Chapter he saith cc Ibidem vide Sixt. Sen. in Cyr. Pits
also by his instigation seemeth good to vs. That he did acknowledg infallibilitie in sincere approued Councells it is further manifest by that he held of the Popes iudgmeÌ„t If he thought the resolution of doubts in faith were to be made by him and that his decision was a truth so certaine that it could not be gainesaid he without question made no lesse esteeme of a generall and approued Councell wherein the Popes iudgment and determination is included and consequentlie when he questions or reiects the authoritie of Councells he meanes not those wherein the Pope defines or such as he approues and so not all that are vnder the name of generall but some onelie as hath beene said before Now that he had that estimation which I haue mentioned of the Popes iudgment and dedefinition it is manifest by the 47. Chapter where professedlie he doth vndertake to proue it bringing to this purpose manie testimonies out of S. Augustine S. Hierome Rufinus Origen the Bishops of Africk and others The title of the Chapter is Quod Papa habet ab antiquo potestatem insringibilem ad determinandum fidei veritates debellandum cancellandum omnes falsitates haereticas And in the verie nn Orthodoxi omnes ad iudices Christi currunt vicarios ordinatè requirunt vt tandem planam teneant veritatem Propter hoc enim vt verè credunt licet Doctores vltra eos Episcopos inter omnes mortales singillatim acceptos petere Papam cuius moderameÌ„ decisio pro irrefragabili vero tenebatur à Patribus Apud ipsum enim piè credebant totius fidei nostrae latere mysteria pectus eius imbutum butyro illo prophetico quo sciret reprobare malum eligere bonum Walden to 1. li. 2. c. 47. Nouit Hieronymus apud Papam Romanum authoritatem este ad emendandum fidem incongruam vel ad probandum Catholicam postquam à tanto Apostolatu haberetur vt recta sine dubio foret per null â—maltum violanda Ad eiusdem quoque Damasi Papa doctrinam tanquam ad infallibilem fidei regulam Catholici Episcopi illo tempore suos aduersarios haereticos coëgerunt Ibidem vbi etiam refert illud quod suprà dictum est ex Hier. de Sancti Marci Euangelio per Sanctum Petrum approbato beginning he saith Papae moderamen decisio pro irrefragabili vero tenebatur à Patribus the Popes direction and decision was by the Fathers marke that by the Fathers held for a truth which cannot be contradicted To the same purpose are manie things added in the next Chapter which is of the prerogatiue of perpetuall immunitie in the Church of Rome where amonge other things he saith that oo Propter hanc incorruptionem claritatem famosam omnes viri Catholici quantumcunque magni quantumlibet sancti simul authoritate territi magnae sedis ab hac susceperunt in dubijs fidei documenta terrifica cap. 48. all Catholick men how great how holie soeuer haue from that See receaued documents in doubts of faith and that it is as he speakes in the words of Cyrill stabilita inquassabiliter so established that it cannot be moued or shaken and more to the same purpose which in the additions you may reade So that I may leaue this as sufficientlie demonstrated out of his booke that you were mistaken in the sence of the words obiected Out of that which hath beene related from him it appeares also that I may leaue a note for such as vpon this occasion may chaunce hereafter to looke on him first that he puts diuers degrees of adhesion deuines expresse it by certitudo maior maior ex parte subiecti respectiuelie to verities diuerslie proposed Secondlie thar with him these proponents are infallible vizt the Church symbolicall that part of it which is now present including both Pastors and people a perfect and syncere generall Councell and the Church of Rome as it is head or the Pope defining Thirdlie that the Pope Councell and present Church when it will seeke the veritie of anie point of faith called into question or the authoritie of any writing or scripture to knowe whether it be diuine or no is to looke into the symbolicall Church which hath all the Christian lawe with the meaning written in her heart by the spirit of the liuing God and there to finde it not in euerie page of this greate booke not expressed in the faith of euerie part but in the booke And if after the search made it be proposed by the Pope in a generall Councell by the present Church receaued or by the Pope in Councell to the Church all are according to his principles to receaue and to beleeue it Fourthlie that the present Church finding and proposing the veritie and the symbolicall in whom she finds it beleeuing and testifying the same doe make vp one organ where by the holie Ghost the spirit of truth doth auouch it to the world Fiftlie that besides the authorities before mentioned all contained in the Church wherein our sauiour pp Ego vobiscum omnibus diebus Mat 28. qui loquitur in me Christus 2 Corim 13. Parecletum dabit vobis vt maneat vobiscum in aeteâ—nuÌ„ spiritum veritatis Ioh 14. In vobis erit Ibidem Non enim vos estis qui loquimini sed Spiritus Patris vestri qui loquitur in vobis Matt. 10. likewise and his spirit be there be in it also diuers other degrees of authoritie as of generall Councells not including the Popes approbation not by the Church or him disapproued of particular Churches especiallie qq Ecclesiarum Catholicarum inter quas sanê illae quae Apostolicas sedes habere epistolas accipere meruerunt c. S. Aug. 2. Doct. Chri. c. 8. such as the Apostles haue liued in and amongst them chieflie the Roman though considered with abstraction from the Popes authoritie by reason of the traditions left in her by the two great Apostles S. Peter and S. Paul of nationall or prouinciall Synods and the like all which according to this Author haue their waight though not the same with the Pope in Councell I omit to pleade further that Waldensis was at Constance in the Councell whereof I spake before treating of Cameracensis and passe vnto the next §. IV. 1. Panormitan the Lawier speakes of a Councell not approued by the Pope nor by the Church diffused which Councells the Question meddles not withall 2. It were possible he thinks for God considering his absolute power to conserue the true faith in one man or woman 3. Antoninus his mind touching Councells PVto tamen quod si Papa moueretur melioribus rationibus authoritatibus quà m Concilium quod standum esset sententiae suae Nam Concilium potest errare sicut aâ—ià s errauit super matrimonium contrahendum inter raptorem raptum Et infrà Nec obstat si dicatur quod Concilium Generale non potest
quâ—d antiquitus abomnibus Ecclesiae Catholicae Sacerdotibus vniuersalis Concilij authoritate decretum Deinde si qua noua c. c. 41. ExeÌ„pluÌ„ adhibuimus SaÌ„cti CoÌ„ciliâ— quod antè trienmum fermè in Asia apud Ephesum celebratum est c. Vniuersis Sacerdotibus qui illò ducenti feré conuenerant c. omnes verò Catholicos sacerdotes fuisse c. c. 42. Wee haue said that in the antiquitie of the Church two things are greatlie and with greate diligence to be obserued quibus wherevnto all those must adhere steedfastlie that will not be hereticks why do you start first of all if any thing should be auncientlie defined with the authoritie of an oecumenicall Councell by all the Priests of the Catholick Church and next if any new question should arise wherein that were not found recourse to be made to the opinions or sentences of holie Fathers those onelie who euerie one in their owne time and place were found to be approued masters continuing still in the vnitie of communion and faith and what soeuer they be found to haue held with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple should be iudged the true and Catholike doctrine of the Church Here besides the faith and profession of the Church symbolicall or vniuersall be two other rules wherevnto all that will not be flat heretiks must of necessitie conforme themselues the decrees of oecumenicall Councells and the vniforme consent of Fathers I leaue you now to compare your condition with his opinion What he deliuers in this matter is not his doctrine alone c. 1. That you conceaue him the better he presentlie brings for instance or example the proceedings of the Councell of Ephesus held l c. 42. three yeares no more before he wrote this booke wherein Nestorius was condemned the anathematismes of the Councell you may see when you please It is worth the noting by the way for it is your practise too and indeed of all hereticks that Nestorius as he relates in the end of the chapter renounced the authoritie of the Church in deciding controuersies affirming m c. 43. totam etiam nunc errare semper errasse Ecclesiam that the whole Church euen now in the time of the Councell doth erre and alwaies hath erred In the last chapter of all he brings in the authoritie of the See Apostolike and in fine concludes his booke If neither Apostolicall definitions nor Ecclesiasticall decrees whereby according to the sacred consent of vniuersalitie and antiquitie all Heretikes euer and in fine Pelagius Caelestius Nestorius haue been deseruedlie condemned be to be violated it is necessarie verilie that all Catholikes hereafter which haue a care to shewe themselues lawfull children of the mother-Church be associated and close ioyned vnto the faith of the holie Fathers and so insist that they die in it and that they detest abhorre speake against persecute the prophane nouelties of prophane men §. XIII Exceptions against a text or two refuted THE last Opposition which you make is against two of the places of Scripture which our Deuines bring to confirme the Councels infallibilitie These also least you conceaue there is difficultie I will consider as farre as your Opposition goes though otherwise not meddling with the Question de Iure which you finde in our Deuines discussed at large and then make an end The one of these places containes our Sauiours promise of the Holie Ghosts assistance made vnto the Church The Spirit of Truth when he comes shall teach you all truth Ioan. 14. 16. The other of the places represents vnto vs the interpretation of the forsaid promise as it was vnderstood by the Apostles who relying on it met in Councell and there defined a Controuersie It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghost and to vs. Acts 15. Against the former place you saie first that it is meant of the Apostles onlie This is false for it is foreuer I will aske my father and he will giue you another comforter that he remaine with you for euer the Spirit of truth And apud vos manebit he shall remaine with you Io. 14. the Catholike Church is his mysticall bodie which cannot subsist without his Spirit and for confirmation and illustration of her faith not onelie in the Apostles time when our Sauiour was gone but euer since after they be gonne she needs assistance of the Spirit Neither was it his minde to leaue the faithfull without such comfort non relinquam vos orphanos Ioh. 14. I will not leaue you orphans O father establish confirme sanctifie them in the truth I aske not for them onlie Ioh. 17. the Apostles but for the Church for those which by their word shall beleeue in me That by thy prouidence for my sake in our Spirit all be as it were one and agree to their proportion as wee doe who doe iudge and approue still the same But tell me hath the Spirit left the Church or is he still in it if he hath left it how hath she supernaturall operations how doth she beleeue the diuine word how doth she subsist as the Gospell saith she shall notwithstanding all the endeuours of hell it selfe Mat. 16. If he doth remaine in it it is then true that the promise holds still euen that which was made vnto the Church in the Apostles time and began first to be fulfilled in them The greatest promises in all the Scripture be two one of God the Father to send his sonne to redeeme the world the other of God the Sonne to send the holie Ghost his spirit to teach and instruct his Church if you doe not beleeue the later is performed you will giue vs cause to thinke that you would euacuate the former too and not trust God at all in his promise nor in his couenant neither though so farre you trust one another Ierem. 35. Ezech. 37. I will giue my lawe in their bowels and in their hart I will write it and I will be their God and they shall be my people My Spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth Isa 59. shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seed saith our Lord from this present and foreuer See the Disp li. 3. Secondlie you saie that it is not to be vnderstood of all the dogmaticall points or doctrine by our Sauiour reuealed and deliuered vnto the Church but of some points onlie â—hose which are expressed in the Apostles Creed and not necessarilie of all those neither Here againe you doe manifestlie contradict the text of Scripture and open the waie to let errour and heresie into the Church For if the holie Ghost teach no more by the promise of our Sauiour then those fewe points it is impossible for men to knowe the truth touching other reuealed verities though they be necessarie to be knowne
this assistance the shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all what soeuer I shall haue said vnto you Ioann 14. So did the Apostle vnderstand it also in saying that Pastors are giuen to the end wee doe not wauer Ephes 4. nor be borne about with euery winde of doctrine Such a giddines happens in other things also besides fundamentalls The Church likewise beleeues the graunt to be thus vniuersall to all our Sauiours doctrine as appeareth by the matters which she defineth in generall Councels as in that of Trent And so much you will acknowledg of the primitiue Church if you reflect vpon that which hath beene said out of S. Augustine in the Donatists case about Baptisme which controuersie not being expressed in the Apostles Creed was in a Councell defined and in vertue of this assistance by the whole Christian world Neither doe you finde the difficultie which was resolued by the Apostles in their Councell put into the Creede Thirdlie you saie that out of a generall assistance such as God giues euerie man towards euerie good worke infallibilitie cannot be inferd and more you will not graunt But our Sauiour graunted more he promised the holie Ghost should teach the Church all truth Ioh. 14. 16. and his lessons must not be doubted of he cannot misse the truth or teach a lie The sence which he doth inspire teach affirme is certaine and the falsitie of any one thing were it possible he should teach a falsitie would infinitelie preiudice his authoritie in the estimation of his creatures yea the whole Scripture would be questioned if this ground were not firme â— Petr. 1. if that were not certaine which men inspired by the holie Ghost and affirming as from him or he in them might be false Fourthlie you saie that if the Councell follow Scripture it hath assistance and is infallible but not els This supposeth that the Church without assistance can vnderstand the Scripture or teach and define matter of faith whereas our Sauiour in the Scripture saith Ioann 15. without him wee can doe nothing and therefore he hath promised assistance that wee may knowe his will and our dutie and left the holie Ghost in the Church to teach her all truth The Iewes and Pagans and heretikes looke on Scripture but they doe not vnderstand it The Church hath a Master the Holie Ghost left to teach her and by his helpe doth vnderstaÌ„d What need a Schoolemaster if your child doth by himselfe vnderstand his booke or will you call it instruction if he neuer tell him any thing but what the child himselfe knowes before you knowe moreouer that when the Controuersie is about the Scripture the written word or about the Apostles Creed or generall tradition assistance is necessarie and also for the sence of Scripture more then is by your definition fundamentall To omitt that in your answer you allowe the Church no greater securitie from errour by the promised assistance then you graunt to be in pagans and heretikes without it for they dot not erre if they followe Scripture and iudge as it is there So little is the discretion of this answer and so small a benefit or rather no benefit you coÌ„ceaue to be bestowed in that faire promise Whereas wee beleeue our Sauiour to be God who neither mocks his Church nor breakes his word he can and will make and bringe to passe Ezech. 36. that she walke in his precepts He writes his lawes in her heart Ierem. 31. what hinders him and keepes his words Isa 59. in her mouth He hath opened a Schoole and put a Master in the chaire Docebit saith he he shall teach and if the lessoÌ„ be forgot suggeret Ioan. 14. he shall bringe it to minde againe he is not to staie till men finde it of them selues he is Master and shall teach it Fiftlie you saie that you are content exteriour obedience be giuen to generall Councells but no more Yet more must be giuen to the holie Ghost and in Councells He defineth Visum est Spiritui Sancto nobis Act. 15. were the words of the Councell it seemeth good to the holie ghost and to vs not to vs onlie but to him in himselfe and in vs heere assembled with his assistance promised in cases of this nature and wee are certaine that he who promised will performe to decide a controuersie our act is his act 2 Cor. 13. to Him it hath seemed good In S. Paul Christ spake the Apostles words 1. Thess 1. were acknowledged to be and were indeed the words of God Luc 10. the holie Ghost speakes in the Church the definition is his you must beleeue it and Matt. 18. remotis dubitationibus to vse S. Augustines words S. Aug. suprà there is no more doubt to be made of it In the conclusion of your discourse you repeate againe what you said in the beginning Alij fatentur opus esse iudice loquenteâ—eâ— homine Volunt tameÌ„ posse ab eo prouocari in foro in â—erno sea conscientiae Siâ— Wittakerus c. Sed hoc facilè refellitur tum quia in hac materia gratis confingitur haec distinctio fori tum etiam quia pax Ecclesiae sita est potissimum in foro interno scilicet in fide ergo non licet in eo foro prouocare à Iudice Ecclesiae alioquin nunquam pax esset conscientiae tum praeterea quia praxis Ecclesiae in Concilio Apostolorum aliorum generalium Conciliorum planè declarat quod Iudex Ecclesiae habeat potestatem dirimendi lites in foro conscientiae tum demum quia si quis teneretur obedire iudicio Ecclesiae in foro externo non in interno teneretur aliquando silentio sepelire veritatem Dei eamque non confiteri coram hominibus nempe si Ecclesia sententiam ferret contra Dei veritatem Accedit quod potestas Ecclesiae est spiritualis in animas ipsas ergo potestas illius iudicandi se extendit etiam ad forum internum Reuerendiss Chalc. in Collat. li. 2. c. 28. that wee beleeuing the Councels to be directed in their Decrees by the Holie Ghost in vertue of our Sauiours promise made vnto the Church attribute more to them then Antiquitie hath donne The vanitie of which your pretence sufficientlie appeares by that which hath beene answered to your exceptions in particular You finde none that denies what wee beleeue Yea those whom you produce to speake against vs affirme it constantlie And who more Auncient in the ranck of Christians then the Apostles themselues whose testimonie you haue heard in our behalf You haue beene told also that in Sainct Augustines daies the Catholikes vniuersallie and amongst them the greatest schollers submitted their iudgments to the iudgment of the Church in Councell and this too though the point so determined were neither fundamentall nor found in Scripture You shall finde also as hath beene likewise insinuated
Docete Matt. vlt. This Catholikes do know they be grounded they take the secure way The way which you take is temerarious it is the same which Heresie doth vsuallie take to spred it self And in making choise of it you shew in your self the disposition of a Sectarie The Sectarie findes an opinion auouched by two or three against the common and against the Spirit of the Church generallie yet because it likes him for that it is easier to be conceaued or more agreeable to some phantasie that he hath or better suting to the libertie which he could wish he is coÌ„tent to â—hink the authoritie of those â—â—o or three though the â—â—st contradict sufficient to â—ake is probable and then iudâ—ng of the reasons and motiâ—es which they bring as his â—â—fections incline him he thinks 〈◊〉 at last certaine So did the â—rians depending vpon the â—uthoritie first of their leaâ—ers and then deeming their â—otiue as that pater maior me 〈◊〉 to be manifestlie against the Church and for them Neither be the Leaders themselues Arch-heretickes wiâ—â—out pretence of authoritie they cite the d Fortasse aliquisinterroget An Haeretici diuinae Scripturae testimonijs vtantur Vtuntur planè vehemeÌ„ter quidem nam videas eos volate per singulaquae que sanctae legis volumina per Moysi per Regum volumina per Psalmos per Apostolos per Euangelia per Prophetas Siue enim apud suos siue alienos siue priuatim siue publice siue in sermonibus siue in libris siue in conuiuijs siue in plateis nihil vnquam paenè de suo proferuÌ„t quod non etiam Scripturae verbâ—s adumbrare conentur Vinc. lirin c. 35. Si quis interroget queÌ„piam Haereâ—â—corum sibi talia persuadentem vnde probas vnde doces quod Ecclesiae Catholicae Vniuersalem antiquam fidem dimittere debeam Statim ille mille testimonia mille exempla mille authoritates parat de lege de psalmis de apostolis de prophetis quibus nouo malo more interpretatis ex arce Catholica in Haereseôs barathrum infoelix anima praecipitetur Idem c. 37. vbi ostendit eos à diabolo moduÌ„ istum didicisse Scriptum est enim Scriptures â—â—d gleane obscure speaches â—t of auncient good writers which in shewe do make for them When a man once takes this â—ay he squares out his Religion to himself or rather he runnes out of all from one thing to another from more to fewer points or articles from that he calls probable to lesse and yet lesse and lesse probable till at last is he findes himself most certainlie in Hell Faith is a firme assent but his if well examined is not so It is not diuine faith he doth but flatter himself and deceaue others with a shadow If two or three tell him thatâ— Councell may mistake though the rest auouch the contrarie he is content to think it may and heereupon presentlie doubts of all that is so defined Then further proceeding iâ— the same sillie motiue if thâ— whole Church auouch a thing yet so as some two or three at some time or other held thâ— contrarie he will not beleeâ—â— the Church neither No nor the Apostles if any tell him they might erre A Rainolds a Whittakers authoritie makes the contrarie to him probable and by that time he hath read their bookes he thinkes himself certaine of it But in the meane while where is the faith of such a man wherevnto doth he giue a firme assent To the Scriptures No their authoritie who denied them makes him doubt To the Creed nor so the authoritie of two or three serues his turne and there is nothing in the Creede that more then two or three haue not refused Arianisme Nestorianisme Sabellianisme Eutichianisme Pelagianisme Lutheranisme Swinglianisme all great Heresies haue had multitudes of abbetâ—ors whereas two or three serue his turne Where then is his religion in his mouth peraduenture but in his heart well examined there is none Others there be not so readie to relie indifferentlie vpon the Authoritie of any whatsoeuer esteemed learned but determined extreamelie vnto one The Puritan for example to Iohn Caluin whom he prefers before the rest all together Wherein he shewes himself as extrauagantlie peccant against the light of nature as the former AmoÌ„gst the many principes or Axiomes which reason dictates to the Prudent this is one that in matters of beleefe the greatest Authoritie must sway our vnderstanding He will not denie that this is true he might as well denie the sunne shines at middaie but his manner of proceeding doth inuolue a deniall of it The authoritie of a Councell entirelie oecumenicall is greater then the Authoritie of one single man The greatest â—chollers haue euer stooped to 〈◊〉 yet the Puritan rather beleeues Caluin then such a Councell Yea rather then all the knowne Churches in the world though e Though some now disseÌ„t as you for example yet these points haue had the consent of all Christian Churches as many as beleeued that our B. Sauiour had true flesh and blood consenting As in the matter of the Masse vnbloodie Sacrifice reall Presence And what way is there think you to deale with such a man or to what end is it to dispute with him If you cite Scripture he will rather take the comment of his Master Iohn then the definition and tradition howeuer auncient of the whole Church deliuering the sence of it It is so in the point of the Reall presence And in admitting the Bookes of Scripture too he will be his owne chooser and will iudge himself which is good and sound and which ought to be discarded Vide disput de Eccles pag. 304. But who shall decide the coÌ„trouersie betwixt the Church and him touching the meaning of that Scripture which he pleaseth to let passe for currant The Spirit no doubt But in whom in the Church or the vniuersitie of beleeuers before his time Not so They might erre he thinkes and so might all the Councells of Bishops that euer were and all the Pastors of the world though consenting they might all he thinks be deceaued Where then speakes the Iudge he meanes to stand to when the Controuersie is about the sence of Scripture or about the sinceritie of the letter in whom speakes the Spirit which he will permit to be his Master In Master Iohn So he beleeues rather theÌ„ he will beleeue that he speaketh in the Church Now tell me is not this a strange manner of proceeding in matters appertaining to our eternall estate to challeng to ones self or his Master Iohn authoritie to teach and interprete Scripture and to denie it to the whole Senate of Catholike Bishops and Pastors whom God hath giuen to teach diuine doctrine and to keepe the Church from wauering in such matters and not onlie to them Ephes 4 in what age soeuer but absolutelie to the Church without exempting the first Disciples and Apostles These for
sooth be the men that in the pulpits crie so lowde who disesteeming the whole world besides obtrude themselues as masters of mankind each an Oracle I know you wash your hands your words condemne their insolencie you will not seeme to participate of their fault But what is in your heart Are not you too one of those that abbet a priuate judgment against a publike You plead against the power of the Church to determine matter of faith in her generall assemblies that I see And I know too that you punish men for not conforming themselues to the determinations of one not generall Reconcile these if you can And tell me if I be not bound to conforme my judgment to the judgment of a Councell when it is perfectlie oecumenicall what shall binde me to conforme it vnto one that is onelie Nationall if the Decrees of the whole Church may be lawfullie refused what obligeth me in conscience and before God to receaue the Decrees of your Conuocation Is euerie subiect bound to be of his Princes Religion or is it lawfull for him to subscribe against that he knowes to be the truth Is England since you began to teach growne bigger then all the world is a part is was not of old so bigger then the whole In way of excuse for your not subscribing to decrees oecumenicall you plead the Authoritie of some fewe men how vniustlie heareafter it will appeare and shall not the Authoritie of farre more and those great Schollers excuse vs in conscience for not subscribing to your priuate Articles wherein be many things generallie condemned in former ages To giue instance in one point that containes many In your 23. article you determine thus The Sacrifices of Masses in the which was commonlie said that the Priests did offer Christ for the quick and the dead to haue remission of paine or guilt were blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits So you Yet was this Sacrifice frequented f Missa abominatio in calice aureo propinata omnes reges terra populos à summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt proram puppim suae salutis in hac vna voragine statuerint Caluin Instit li. 4. c. 18. See the Protest Apol. tract 3. Sect. 1. and in the Conclusion to the Iudges Sect. 6. 10. generallie when Luther began to make your Schisme It was auowed in the g S. Iren. li. 4. c. 32. Noui testamenti Nouam docuit oblationem quam Ecclesia ab Apostolis accipiens in vniuerso mundo offert Deo Concil Nicenum 1. can 14. S. Cyrill cum eo Concil Ephes in Anathem 11. S. Augu. Conc. 1. in Psalm 33. Nondum erat sacrificium Corporis Sanguinis Domini quod nunc diffusum est toto orbe terrarum S. Ambros de Sacram. li. 4. 5 S. Cyrill Catech. myst 5 S. Chrysost lib. 3. 6. de Sacerdotio Hom. 17. in Epist ad Hebraeos His Liturgie is yet extant And so is S. Basils too S. Gregor Nyssen Hom. 1. de Resurr Praeoccupat impetum violentum ac sese in oblationem victimam offert pro nobis Sacerdes simul agnus Dei. Vide Disp li. 5 c. 9 Coccium in Thesanro t 2. li. 6. a. 4. times primitiue And our Sauiours h This is my bodie which is broken for you This is the blood of the new testament which is shed for you words registred in the i 1. Cor. 11. Matt. 26. That it was offered for the quick and the dead it is also testified abundantlie S. Epiphan Haeres 75 where he saith also the Church receaued it by tradition S. Cyrill Cathec 5. Pro omnibus oramus qui ante nos vita functi sunt maximum credentes animarum iuuamen pro quibus offertur obsecratio sancti illius tremendi quod ante nos iacet Sacrificij S. Chrysost Homil. 3 in Epist ad Phil. Non frustra hac ab Apostolis sunt legibus constituta vt in venerandis inquam atque horrisicis mysterijs memoria corum fiat qui decesserunt nouerant hinc multum ad illos lucri accedere multum vtilitatis S. August in Enchirid. ad Laurent c. 110. lib. de cura pro mort c. 1. c. 4. Non sunt praetermittenda supplicationes pro Spiritibus mortuorum vt quibus ad ista desunt parentes aut filij ab vna is exhibeatur â—ia matre Ecclesia Lib. 9. Confess c. 13. Meminerint ad altare tuum Monica famulae tuae cum Patritio quondam eius coniuge c. S. Ioan. Damasc Orat. quod defuncti Missis inuentur Quod quidem citra vllam controuersiam Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia sine vlla ambiguitate retinet c. Vt consuetudinis testem â—llum cito The like appeares by the Liturgies Where obserue that I reflect preciselie vpon the termes of your Article which condemneth vnbloodie Sacrifice offered by the Priest for the Quick and the Dead to haue remission of paine or guilt If this be a blasphemous fable the whole world was in Errour So commonlie was it said and esteemed lawfull and so vniuersallie frequented See further Gualterius his Chronographicall table verit decima The Protestants Apol. tract 1. Sect. 3. subd 4. and Sect. 7. subd 6. The Conference of Cath. and Prot. doct li. 2. c. 24. angl Bible being vnderstood in their natiue proper sence do k What necessitie there is to enquire into the true sence of these words This is my bodie will best appeare in the after-examination of the diuers consequences of your owne sence to wit your doctrine of transsubstantiation corporall and materiall presence propitiatorie sacrifice and proper adoration all which depend vpon your Romish exposition of the former words of Christ The issue then wâ—ll be this that if the words be certainelie true in a proper and litterall sence then wee are to yeild to you the whole cause Morton Instit. of Masse li. 2. c. 1. I omit to note how Luther who did impugne the Sacrifice of Masse had his instructions from the Deuil as doth appeare still by his owne booke de Missa Priuata p. 228 Ego coram vobis And p. 230 â— â—n summa Edit Wittemb anno 1558. where he puts dâ—wne the Deuils arguments amongst which one is against vnbloodie Sacrifice Contra institutionem Christi Missa vsus es pro Sacrificio c. §. quarto confessedlie make for and confirme it Now should wee subscribe to your Article wee should contradict all this Wee should contradict open Scripture interpreted by the whole Christian world and by the l And this Spirit is the Holie Ghost Ioh. 14. 16. Spirit in it And whilst you sollicite vs so to do what do you but abbet a priuate Spirit and this too importunelie vnseasonablie then when you denie to the whole Church power to define the veritie euen of this cause or to declare the sence of Scripture touching it in her Councels oecumenicall I am not disposed
works openly denied infallibilitie to the decrees of approued generall Councels Much lesse can the passage alleaged serue your turne if the word Christians be not heere taken so strictly as your inference doth suppose but so farre extended that heretickes come vnder the name too for then it may be true that some Christians doe seeme to thinke so and yeâ— no Catholikes thinke so there being other Christians in the world beside Catholikes euen in his opinion that said and was it not the same b Quaeso vt mihi reueles an aliqui sentiant quod tota multitudo Christianorum valeat haeretica prauitate foedari Mag. Iudaei Sarraceni etiam Pagani firmissimè tenent fidem ChristianaÌ„ esse erroneaÌ„ Disc Non intendo quaerere de illis sed de Christianis sub Christianis etiam Haereticos comprehendendo Mag. Nescio aliquem Christianum qui hoc teueat Ockam dialog par 1. li. 5 c. 35. Ockam thinke you that vnder the name of Christians he did also comprehend heretikes who desired also in this Dialogue to heare the contrarie Opinions of whomsoeuer Catholikes or Heretikes yea and sometimes others â—hat no c Nolo vt quod tenes in mente reueles sed respoÌ„siones aliquas quae cogitari vel teneri potuerint à quocumque non differas recitate c. sententias contrarias quorumcumque Catholicorum Haereticorum interdum alia quae à nullo Christiano tenentur licet possint habere Catholicos Haereticos defendentes te desidero recitare sic enim multiplicius efficacius exercitabimus studiorum ingenia Idem c. 34. Christians hold This for your argument of omnes and quidam Christiani some Christians and all Christians VNa sola est Ecclesia militans quae contra fidem errare non potest quia de sola vniuersali militante inuenitur in Scripturis authenticis quod errare non potest Concilium autem generale licet sit pars Ecclesiae militantis vniuersalis tamen non est Ecclesia vniuersalis Igitur temerarium est dicere quod Concilium generale contra fidem errare non potest Baro. p. 361. ex Ockam dial 2. THe next thing obiected is an argument of those some Christians whereby they imagined that perhaps the thing which they did seeme to thinke might be proued The vniuersall diffused Church onlie iâ— vnerrable but a generall Councell iâ— not the vniuersall diffused Church Ergo. In which argument the proposition or is Maior false as our Deuines doe proue by playne testimonieâ— of scripture and our aduersaries 〈◊〉 necessitie must acknowledg aâ— much vnles they will oppose them selues to the Apostles and Father and Pastors of the Church all together For if onely the Symbolicaâ— or vniuersall Church diffuse through all Nations and times hatâ— the priuiledge of not erring in matter of diuine Faith it followes thaâ— the Pastors and Fathers and Apostles all consenting are not to bâ— relied on as a proponent infallible since these be not the whole 〈◊〉 they neuer so glorious a part of the Church vniuersall Howbeit tâ— Question here is not of that argument or proposition but whetheâ— Ockam doth denie the infallibilitie of approued generall Councells or whether he doth name or giue other sufficient notice of any Catholike that denied it He names here none â—t all neither doth he say that they were Catholikes who seemed to thinke c. and least any should suspect him he professeth in the person of the other Dialogist to be of the d Quamuiâ— firmissimè puteÌ„ quod Concilium Generale haereticari non potest tamen rationes pro assertione contraria libenti animo auscultabo Mag. Quod Concilium generale possit errare contra fidem rationibus exemplis videtur posse probari Prima autem ratio talis est Vna est sola vniuersalis Ecclesia c. vt pag. 5. Ockam li. 5. c. 25. argumenti verò solutionem apud ipsum innenies cap 9. habetur inferius ad lit h. §. ad vndecimam minde that a generall Councell cannot â—rre in faith The like proceeding you may obserue in him els-where as in the last Chapter of this booke where he bringes reasons and leaues them without answer too to proue that the whole multitude of Christians hauing vse of reason pastors and people men and women may erre against the faith and that it is temeâ—arious to say they will neuer doe so though he there confesse this which â—e goeth about to proue to (e) Nescio aliquem Christianum qui hoc teneat Disc Licet nescias Christianum aliquem hoc tenere tamen pro hoc al quas rationes excogitare nitaris Mag. Ad quaestionem falsam nulla ratio nisi sophistica potest adduci Disc Concedo quod pro assertione praedicta nulla valet ratio nisi sophistica allegari tamen saepè rationes apparentes difficiles ad soluendum pro falsis inducuntur Vnde qualescunque inuenire coneris Mag. Quod tota multitudo Christianorum vsum rationis habentium possit contra fidem errare tali ratione probatur c. Ockam li. 5. c 35. Ergo temerarium est asserere quod nunquam tota multitudo Christianorum vsum rationis habentium contra fidem errabit Ibidem in fine be â—â—lse as it is indeed and manifestly against the Scripture Daniel 7. I say 49. Mat. 18. Io. 14. Ephes 4. Apoc. 20. and that he knewe no Christian at all he liued before the Protestant Religion that held it ESt quaedam opinio quae viam eligens mediam praedictis omnibus in aliquo aduersatur tenens quod Scripturae diuinâ— contentae in Biblia eiusdem sacrae Scripturae scriptoribus Vniuersall Ecclesiae atque Apostolis absque vlla dubitatione in omnibus est credendum Nullis verò alijs quantacunque doctrina vel sanctitate praepolleant est in omnibus absque omni exceptione fides necessariò adhibenda Ita quod nec in Concilio Cenerali si esset congregata vniuersalis Ecclesia noâ— decretis aut decretalibus vel assertionibus summorum Pontificum nec Doctorum dictis siue fuerint ab Ecclesia approbati siue non fuerint approbati est necessariò credulitas in omni dicto casu absque omni exceptione praestanda Licet in multis negari non debeant quoad multa Christiani ipsis credere teneantur Baro p. 361. ex Ockami dial 3. par tract 1. li. 3. c. 4. 3. THe third thing obiected is that he mentions an Opinion holding amongst many other things that credit is not to be giuen to a generall Councell in euery thing it saies and in euery case without exception Were this his owne tenet our cause were not hurt for wee do not maintaine in Councells of the Church approued much lesse in all Councels that are stiled generall such an vnlimited and vniuersall infallibilitie as these words import in omni dicto casu absque omni exceptione in all they say and in all cases without exception neither indeed
c. 13. Est quoddam periculum tantummodo imminens seu circumstans est periculum inuolueÌ„s seu prosternens Ibidem §. Cum autem multitude of Chriâ—ans so one man remaine sound himselfe perchance may be exposed not 〈◊〉 circumstant and imminent only â—â—t to inuoluing and vanquishing or â—â—erthrowing danger of Heresie and errour In which case quibus in Haereâ—â—am prauitatem labentibus it will haue God who of stones can raise Abraham sonnes of these or others to make vp his Church anewe You may further obserue if you read Ockam how the blinde Opinion knowes not where to take footing or which way to proceed whilst it â—es stumbling on Wee must not belâ—â—ue a Councell (m) suprà pag. 8. in all things so it â—gins then especially (n) c. 7. if they be fâ—â—e in it as there haue bene some tyâ— ten or twelue then it is not necessarâ— (o) c. 8. of euery Councell then it is not neâ—essarie to beleeue that a question of â—h is (p) Ibidem alwayes ended by reuelations then neither (q) c. 9. perchance 〈◊〉 there be alwaies a reuelation made 〈◊〉 oft as a generall Councell will be heâ— c. with so many limitations aâ— cautions fortè and semper and qâ—ties And againe it cannot be proâ— by this an argument there broughâ— that it is (r) c. 11. necessarie to beleeue thâ— the determinations of generall Councâ— touching the doubtfull meaning of hâ— Scripture haue the origen of their true that way by which they were inspiâ— to the writers of holy Scripture wiâ— much more of like nature And tâ— enforced answers which Ockam feinâ— for it to the grounds of the commâ— tenet brought in there in part agaiâ— that new-conceaued blinde error whereof I haue related (Å¿) p. 13. one 〈◊〉 so vnworthie of a learned Christiâ— that you may see looking on theâ— well how pretending to nourisâ— he on better aduise leaues it anâ—â—bortiue and makes against it thâ— confession First (t) Concilium generale non debet regulariter occulâ—è seu secretè paucis scientibus celebrari sed vulgandum est per vniuersaleÌ„ Ecclesiam hoc est per omnes regiones in prouincia in qua seu in quibus Catholici coÌ„morantur generale Concilium conuocari debere quatenus omnes Catholici tacitè vel expressé coÌ„sentiant quasi authoritateÌ„ tribuant vt ad concilium profecturi eorum nomine circa ordinanda definienda in Generali Concilio canonicè catholicè atque ritè procedant vt meritò quicquid catholicè licitè statuerint vel definierint vniuersali statuatur definiatur assensu p. 3. l. 3. c. 13 quando igitur Concilium Generale ritè coÌ„uocatur in omnibus catholicè procedit quicquid fecerit ab vniuersali Ecclesia fieri est putandum Ibidem when a geneâ— Councell is rightly called and proceâ— in all things Catholikely and holily nâ—ther am I defending others quicqâ— fecerit what soeuer it shall doe is tâ— â—eemed done by the vniuersall Church â—he Catholike Church then it seeâ—es in his iudgment or in the iudâ—ment of the Opinion for so wee must speake of it since it wants an author â—engaged in the Councells decrees â—nd consequently it much concernes him who hath the care of her doceâ—t vos to take order the Councell mistake not and so much ' that the â—edit of her cui in omnibus (u) suprà pag. 8. absâ—e vlla dubitatione credendum est if â—â—e opinion take place which you tell vs Ockam held is ruined with the same lapse if in estimation both are one In the same place he sayth that (x) Postquam acta Generalis Concilij per vniuersos Catholicos populos fuerunt promulgata si nullus contradicens aut impugnans apparet sunt putanda ab vniuersali Ecclesia approbata p. 3. li. 3. c. 13. autem acta Generalis Concilij non fuerunt apud omâ— populos Catholicos diligenter exposita non est diceâ— dum quòd tale Concilium Generale sit explicitè ab Ecclesia approbatum licet si sanctè catholicè fuerit celebrâ—tum possit dici implicitè ab vniuersali Ecclesia approbatâ—â— Ibidem Quod statuitur vel definitur in Concilio Generaâ— non ligat vniuersalem Ecclesiam nisi per vniuersaleâ— Ecclesiam fuerit legitimè diuulgatum ideò non est coâ—â— sendum explicitè approbatum ab vniuersali Ecclesia aâ— tequam taliter publicetur Non oportet autem taliter definitum singulorum auribus inculcare sed sufficit â—aliâ— publicare quod nullus se possit si in contrarium veneâ—â— per ignoraÌ„tiam excusare Ibid. after the acts of a generall Councell haue been promulgated amongst all Catholike people to promulgate them amongst Heretiks he did not esteeme it necessarie if then no man apâ—â—ares he speakes still of Cathoâ—â—kes contradicting or impugning they 〈◊〉 to be esteemed approued of the vniâ—â—rsall Church Secondly (y) Iuxta SanctoruÌ„ Patâ—â— sententiam Concilia Generalia quae ritè iustè sanctè 〈◊〉 canonicè celebrata fuerunt sunt ab omnibus Catholicis 〈◊〉 notissimè suscipienda amplectenda veneranda Ockâ—â— 3. p. li 3. c. 9. those Councells which haue been celebrated â—â—derlie rightlie holilie and canoniâ—llie are according to the iudgment of the holie Fathers marke those Authors most deuoutlie te bo receaueâ— embraced and reuerenced by all Catholikes Thirdlie if (z) Aut Concilium generale catholicè defâ—â— aliquid esse credendum aut erroneè Si catholicè nulli liâ— publicè negare vel etiam publicè dubitare taliter defiâ—â—tum Nulli etiam licet pertinaciter occultè vel etiam motaliter de tali definito dubitate Ibidem a generall Couâ—cell doe Catholikelie that is in his eâ—plication ritè iustè sanctè canoniâ— define something to be beleeued it 〈◊〉 lawfull for none to denie publikelie 〈◊〉 publikelie to doubt of the thing so deâ—ned Neither is it lawefull for any mâ— stubbornelie occultè vel etiam menâ— â—â—ter secretlie or as much as mentallie 〈◊〉 doubt of the thing so defined He is â—oÌ„ne farther now by much then you â—n suffer neither will you finde â—herein these words differ from our â—â—net for wee maintaine not the inâ—â—llibilitie of such Councells as proâ—â—ed against that order which is esâ—ntiallie required in a Councell By the way you must heere diâ—â—inguish Councels if you will not â—ake this Opinion to contradict it â—â—lf those which be sincere and apâ—â—oued be certaine in their decrees those that are not may mistake And if there be doubt of any to which sort they appertaine it will â—â—t haue them obaid It doth also diâ—â—nguish about the decrees of the forâ—â—er sort as others do towards Scriâ—ure an explicite and an implicite â—th There is none in your parish â—eeues the Scripture all in euerie â—t and euerie literall sence distinâ—â—e explicitè no not your self maâ—â— Parson And finallie it distinguiâ—eth a double approbation of deâ—â—es one is authenticall donne by 〈◊〉 Pope another
â—se ioyning her present Authoriâ— to that of the precedent ages â—â—ose minde she doth enquire in â—â—e manner that so by consent of 〈◊〉 whole still errours be condemâ—d Neither is it necessarie to finde â—at which she doth at anie time â—opose vniuersallie professed by all â—fore in plaine termes and expliciâ— or to finde it in all bookes of thoâ— times the Church informer ages â—d not so wee take the same course â—at she then did Secondlie you must â—tend vnto the words cunctas aboleâ—e hath abolished all No one Counâ—ll no one part as that which liued 〈◊〉 the second age or that which liâ—ed in the third or fourth hath aboâ—hed and destroyed them all but â—â—e whole hath done it Thirdlie that â—la is not * If sola be taken as you would haue it what will become of your triall by scripture onlie captiouslie to be stood vpon least you wrong the same Aâ—thor who neuer excluded the Symbolicall Church for whose testimonâ— k so 3. doc 3. tomo 1. li. 2. ca. 18.19.20 c. he pleades so earnestlie both iâ— the same place and in his seconâ— booke Doct. Fid. in many chapterâ— prouing it it's testimonie I meane to be contained in the Creede yâ—â— the Fathers of whose consent 〈◊〉 speakes in the place by you heeâ— vrged be not the symbolicaâ—â— Church properlie but onlie a parâ— of it And in like manner wheâ— speaking of the Church symbolical he saith it is she onlie whose testimonie is of so great l To. 1. li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà ad lit d. authoritie thaâ— she can certifie who are authors oâ— the bookes of scripture that soâ— doth not exclude another authoritie that is within for example thâ— vnanimous consent of Fathers whereof he speakes heere in the words obiected their authoritie were sufficient to certifie the same as you may see by him To. 1. Doct. 3. and li. 2. eiusdem to c. 26. and m Apudomnes Catholicos valet ligat vna sententia concors patruÌ„ maximè autem temporis longaeuâ— patrum successione sirmata ita vt locuÌ„ fidei habeat De quacre â—enda sub poenae perfidiaein symbolo scribetur Credo sanctam Ecclesiam walden to 1. doctrinâ 2. Verè enim ad omnes haereses compescendas omnes tractatus definitiones terminandas in materia fidei sola via est in qua errare non contingit concors patruÌ„ sententia ab ipsis ApostoloruÌ„ sedibus vsque ad nostratempora fideliter compilara In hoc enim simile erit regnum caelorum id est ecclesia catholica homini patri familias qui profert de thesauro suo noua vetera li. 2. c. 25. els where but it excludes authoritie Without Fourthlie he doth noâ— exclude generall Councells by thâ— Christian world approued and hâ— â—t should in Sainct Augustines â—es haue refused to subscribe to â—h authoritie or disputed against â—t which the vniuersall Church â—hat age beleeued and tought he â—t would not haue beleeued what â—s by so great authoritie proposed â—d bene thought madde rather then â—rthie the name of man Fiftlie â—her doth he exclude from infalâ—litie and power to abolish heâ—es the Gospels and other parts scripture and yet these be not â—t instrument or engine which he â—akes of so that you cannot build 〈◊〉 argument on those words to â—e infallibilitie awaie from all but 〈◊〉 Fathers Sixtlie notwithstanâ—g that Councells and the present â—urch are infallible it may be said â—the consent of the Fathers or â—he whole symbolicall Church â—h abolish all heresie because faith â—re readilie giues assent vnto that â—ch is so vniuersallie proposed â—derstandings not so well dispoâ— before doe quicklie stoope in 〈◊〉 case to giue reuerence to the â—h and such as doe not are condemned of all and so confoundâ— that they dare no more openlie pâ—fesse their errour whence it coâ— to passe that none making esteâ— either of the doctrine or of thâ— who stubbornlie doe persist in it degrees it is abolished And this one of those glorious prerogatiâ— which Waldensis so much coÌ„meâ— in the Church Besides the foresâ— readines in the vnderstanding whâ— it is by grace well disposed or 〈◊〉 lesse repugnance to render obedieâ— when it cannot with any shew pâ—tend reason for the refusall there dâ— appeare too more fullie in tâ— proponent the power of vniâ— which is in it selfe a dispositioâ— more plentifull participation of 〈◊〉 spirit and brings with it greaâ— force to conquer opposition Vndâ—standings well disposed yeild pâ—sentlie when the Councell speakâ— when the present Church hath â—ceaued and vniuersallie approâ— the Councell there is ex parte sâ—cti more adhesion and yet mâ— when the consent of all former aâ— is added and vnited and more 〈◊〉 there was in those that had Gradus adhaesionis ex parte subiecti as the â—choolemen speake euidentiam in â—ttestante S. Marke knew the Gosâ—ell which he wrote to be true yet â—hat the faithfull more easilie might â—eleeue it he had it n Vide to 1. doct 3. to 3. li. 2. c. 20. S. Hieron Catol script in Marco approued â—s S. Hierom doth relate by S. Peâ—er S. Paul knew the truth in the â—uestion moued at Antioch about â—ircumcision yet to make the creâ—ibilitie more appeare and more conâ—incing he went with it to the CouÌ„â—ell at Hierusalem where it was o Act. 15. â—efined And the Pastors there knewe too what was the truth yet â—or the greater weight of Authoriâ—ie they added testimonies of Scriâ—ture The scripture many times â—rings testimonies of scripture for confirmation as this Author showeth excellentlie to 1. l. 2. c. 20. and our blessed Sauiour himselfe in conâ—irmation of his resurrection cited Moyses and the Prophets When parts â—re vnited Bishops in Councell particular Churches in the vniuersall whole ages in the Symbolicall â—ater with most Auncient all vnder â—one eternall Word becomming one speaker and vttering in the language of all Nations as it were with one mouth in one spirit one and thâ— same thing no man that perceaueâ— it morallie can dissent This proponent hath a commaunding poweâ— ouer a wise mans vnderstanding anâ— it is a great engine to confound errour in which great engine he thaâ— should denie there were many paâ—ticular engines able to confounâ— Heresie wronges diuers particulaâ— in the companie vnlesse you esteeme it no wronge to denie that honour and abilitie to Prophets and Apostles ECclesia vniuersalis habet fidem indefectibilem non qâ—dem in generali synodo congregata quam aliquoties errâ— percepimus c. Baro p. 366. ex wald to 1. li. 2. c. 19. 4. FOurthlie to the same purposeâ— of remouing infallibilitie froâ— the present Church and Councellâ— he is cited out of another place speaking thus The vniuersall Churâ—â— hath faith which cannot faile not indeed assembled in a generall synâ— which wee haue vnderstoode to haâ— failed sometimes c. In which citaâ—n abruptlie broken of for aduanâ—ge the Authors speach is
errare quia Christus orauit pro Ecclesia sua vt non deficeret c. Quia dico quod licet Concilium Generale repraesentet totam Ecclesiam vniuersalem tamen in veritate ibi non est verè Ecclesia vniuersalis sed repraesentatiuè quia vniuersalis Ecclesia constituitur ex collectione omnium fidelium Vnde omnes fideles orbis constituunt istam Ecclesiam vniuersalem cuius capâ—â—t sponsus est Christus Et infrà Et ista est Ecclesia qua no potest errare credendo sciliceâ— controuersia autem est de errore in docendo siue de infallibili assistentia ijs exhibita quibus incumbit officium docendi congregationem hanc vniuersalem Vnde possibile est quod vera fides Christi remaneret in vno solo ita quod verum est dicere quod fides non deficit in Ecclesia sicut ius vniuersitatis potest manere in vno solo alijs peccantibus Baro p. 367. ex Nicolao Panormitane 1. PANORMITAN This man is called from the Canon-lawe to saie some thing in a matter appertaining to Deuinitie and two things are wrunge out of him whilst he a Vide 36. q. 2. Almain Pot. Eccl. c. 17. mistakes a Canon of a particular Councell which wee must answer vnto One is that a Councell may erre another that it is possible the faith of Christ remaine in one onelie Concerning the first it is one thing to saie that a Councell may erre and another thing to saie that a generall Councell may he saith a Councell may and in proofe thereof makes instance in that of Meaux which was a particular one not a generall Againe it is one thing to saie that a generall Councell may another thing to saie that a generall Councell confirmed by the Pope or by the vniuersall Church receaued may erre Now that the Councell which he speakes of be it that he may be vnderstood of a generall is not a Councell by the Pope approued or by the Church receaued I argue from hence that he compares the Pope and Councell together as distinct considering the Pope without the Councell and the Councell without the Pope touching which comparison he hath two positions the one that b Panor de electione cap. significasti in his quae sunt iuris positiuï Papa est supra Concilium in things appertaining to the positiue lawe the Pope is aboue the Councell that Councell sure which includes not him or his authoritie The other which he did not himself adhere to much lesse proue vide suprà pag. 70. in concernentibus fideÌ„ c Ibidem Concilium est supra Papam in things appertaining to faith the Councell is aboue the Pope and presentlie he begins to tell how the Pope is to conforme himselfe vnles perchance his reasons be better where againe it is manifest that the Pope was not included in the Councell which he spake of So that if any thing be collected out of him to contradict vs it is by vertue of the second part Vnles perchance you thinke this a good argument the vniuersall Church cannot erre as he affirmes therefore an approued Councell may And if you should admit the forme which Logicians will not doe you must admit this the vniuersall Church is that Church which cannot erre therefore S. Paul might erre and so might the Euangelists and all the Fathers and Bishops that euer were For they were not the vniuersall Church though they were in it Neither will the second part or assertion of his serue the turne since it is onlie de possibili an assertion of a possibilitie and this too not de lege ordinaria since the comming of the holie Ghost and establishing of Pastors and doctors that wee be not wauering but de potentiâ absolutâ if the power of al mightie God remouing in our mind all suppositions and promises now made be considered absolutelie in it selfe In which case the lawier makes this Argument once the faith remained in one so he thought it did in the time of the passion as if all Christians there present besides our B. Lady and those also which our Sauiour had persuaded all the time and in all places that he preached and all which * Reuersi autem 72. c. Luc. 10. the disciples had instructed in what part of the world soeuer had at once lost their faith yet the lawier who takes it vpon trust will suppose it once according to that imagination the faith remained in one therefore it is not a thing impossible in it selfe therefore it may be though not according to the course which our sauiour hath established yet according to Gods absolute power If he hath not insinuated this absolute power vnder these termes so farre as d Cameracensis Quaest de Resumpta vt suprà lit m. Cameracensis and e Ockam Dial. p. 1. li 5. c. 31. fine 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. Ockam whence he superficiallie gleaned it in the like occasion haue donne you are too beare with him as being a Lawier not accustomed to the termes of schoole-deuines For my part I cannot thinke so poorelie of him as to imagine that he did not knowe the Church is a kingdome which f Dan. 7. shall not be corrupted that the gates of Hierusalem shall be g Esa 60 62. open still and the watchmen which God hath placed on her walles shall neuer hold their peace that our Sauiour hath established a Hierarchie h Ephes 4. till all meete in vnitie of faith that euen in the hardest times of all there shall be i Matth. 24. electi chosen people and that the k Apocal. 20. vide Disp p. 53. camp of the Saincts and beloued cittie shall be diffused ouer the breadth of the earth l Matt. 16. and constantlie to the glorie of her Prince and Founder in that extreamest tryall maintaine her faith and alleageance against Hell gates when the deuil is let loose and doth oppose her with all his art and furie The infereÌ„ce Panormitan makes vpon the case which he said possible in the sence before declared is a strange one for he will haue it in that supposition to be true to saie fides noÌ„ deficit in Ecclesia faith in the Church faileth not as if one man were fidelium Congregatio a Church a Hierarchie subiect and superiour priest and clerk That it should beginne or end or be continued in one as a line is begunne or ended or continued with a point a diuisible by an indiuisible were something but one person to be a Church is as strange as it is for vnitie to be multitude or an indiuisible to be deuided ANtoninus p. 3. tit 23. c. 2. § 6. haec omnia quae a Panormitano dicta sunt de Papa Concilijs Ecclesia vniuersali amplectitur Baro p. 368. 3. IN confirmation of the Lawiers supposed testimonie there is cited Antoninus the Question being not of lawiers but of Deuines as subscribing to
confirmed or approued Councells 3. It is a sophisticall proceeding to impugne one veritie with another veritie FAteor equidem quodcunque Concilium generale vniuersalem Ecclesiam representare Sed dum vrges Ecclesiam errare non posse verum est in eo sensu qui à fidelibus accipitur Intelligimus enim totam simul Ecclesiam hoc est fideles omnes non errare at nihil obstat cur maior Ecclesia pars non erret Baro p. 381. ex Cano. loc 5. c. 5. CANVS Is pretended to contradict vs though he be knowne to maintaine the Councells infallibilitie such as wee speake of adding withall that the contrarie is hereticall In the fourth Chapter of his fift booke where he treates of that controuersie his third conclusion is a Tertia Conclusio Concilium generale confirmatuÌ„ authoritate Romani Pontificis certam fidem facit Catholicorum dogmatuÌ„ Quam quidem conclusioneÌ„ ita explorataÌ„ habere opus est vt eius coÌ„trariam haereticam esse credamus Canus li. 5. c 4. A generall Councell confirmed by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome doth make certaine the faith of Catholike tenets Which he there proues with many reasons resoluing also the doubts which Heretikes obiect against it 2. Hauing established that authoritie he disputes further whether 〈◊〉 Councell not confirmed by the Pope hatâ— certaine and firme authoritie or no some learned men b Dubium excutiendum est an Concilium per legatos suÌ„mi PoÌ„tificis celebratum firmam certaÌ„que habeat authoritatem an potius episcopi Romani confirmatio expectaÌ„da sit vt certa habeaÌ„tur decreta CoÌ„cilij Idem c. 5. viri doctissimi doe affirme it because it represents the vniuersall Church which cannot erre Wherevnto Canus answers that the whole Church or an approued Councell which doth perfectlie represent it cannot erre but a part of either may c Ibidem The iudgment saith he of the greater part of the Councell though the Legates follow it is not certaine certum autem esset si a summo Pontifice confirmaretur but if it should be confirmed by the Pope it would be certaine And in the same manner he doth answer to a second argument of assistance made for the same purpose d Ibidem euen as saith he that which seemeth good to the whole Church the same also seemeth good to the holie Ghost but not presentlie what the greater part of the Church shall haue iudged the same is the iudgment of the holie Ghost so if anything be iudged by all the Bishops it is verilie iudged by the spirit of God but not presentlie if many fathers of the Councell agree into one sentence shall it be to be beleeued the sentence of the holie Ghost vnles it be confirmed by the Pope 3. By the waie I obserue here two things one is that if an author interprete those words Ecclesia errare non potest the Church cannot erre of the whole or vniuersall Church it doth not followe that he denies therefore infallibilitie to generall approued Councells which are perfect representations of the Church diffused for this e Simile in S. Antonino obseruare licet de quo suprà Et nota post verba ab aduersarijs citata vt supa pag. 86. seqâ—i immediatè in authore sic igitur non ego admitto vt totum Concilium cuÌ„ legatis errare possit at errare poterit maior pâ—â—s Concâ—lij eâ—â—nti illi poteruÌ„â— le gatis subscribere Aâ— que id est quod nos in praesentia dicimus â—udicium maioris partis etiam si legati sequantur non esse certum certùm autem esset si à summo Pontificeconfirmaretur Nec enim opus est quemad moduÌ„paulò antè docuimus sententiaÌ„ Concilij omnes simul patres approbare Canus li. 5. c. 5 q. â— man whom you cite for the former part doth also maintaine the later And the manner of arguing is indeed absurd because it would impugne one truth by another As if I should saie the whole Gospell of S. Iohn is the vndoubted word of God therefore the first Chapter of it is not And were it admitted it would proue as before I said on the same occasion that euerie Apostle yea all the Apostles and Fathers might haue consented in a grosse yea and in the most fundamentall errour because they be not the whole and vniuersall Church The other thing which I obserue is that without sinceritie or conscience you doe make vse of mens words contrarie to their knowne professed meaning and intention which proceeding especiallie in matter of religion is inexcusable The like obseruation I might haue made in Antoninus who is alleaged against that which he did openlie maintaine §. VIII 1. Stapleton did acknowledge degrees of extension in diuine assistance and maintaine the infallibilitie of the Church in her publike decrees of faith 2. To be obnoxious to errour in matters not reuealed doth not any way impeach the promise of assistance and infallibilitie in all that doth intrinsecallie appertaine to the substance of diuine faith QVando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertinent sed salua fidei compage variè a varijs intelligâ— possunt c. consulitur vel obiter disputat Ecclesia aberrare aliquando poterit c. ex Stap. 1. STAPLETON is brought as if he gaue no more to the Church and her Councells then Protestants doe because he doth not maintaine their infallibilitie in curious subtilities and questions indifferent vnto faith nor thinke it so ample in obiect as was that of the Apostles Where first it is to be considered that as in faith or science so likewise in assistance or infallibilitie more or lesse extension doth not change the nature of the thing Mathematicall science in one is more extended then in another one knowes more conclusions then another doth yet is it in both of the same nature The light of glorie in all the Saints is of the same Species and kinde as the Deuines teach though one by it knowes more another lesse Faith in vs and in the Apostles before and since the Incarnation is of the same nature but more extended in the Apostles then in vs and since the incarnation more generallie then it was before The like wee saie of assistance or infallibilitie in iudgment it hath been more extended in some then in others more at one time then at another Secondlie it is to be considered that the Apostles who did write scripture had infallibilitie in a Singuli Apostoli de omnibus plenissimè à Deo instructierant ita vt eorum quilibet de quocunque dogmate ad fidem siuè necessariò siue noÌ„ necessariò pertinente pronunciare potuisset idquetanta certitudine vt non solum pastores essent fidelissimi sed etiaÌ„ magistri peritissimi omniaque etiam subtilissima circa fidei mysteria penerarent Staeplet de princip fidei Doctrinal li. 8. c. 15. Quod autem de Apostolis modo diximus
ambagibus cedere ipsaque plenaria saepe priora posterioribus emendari cùm aliquo experimento rerum aperitur quod clausum erat cogno citâ—r quod latebat Baro. p. 339. ex Aug. 5. IN the fift place are obiected out of S. Augustine those words Prouinciall Councells without all tergiuersation giue place to the authoritie of generall Councells assembled out of all the Christian world and many times the precedent plenarie or generall Councells are mended by the following plenarie Councels when by some experiment of things that is opened which was shut and that knowne which was vnknowne For the vnderstanding of which words it is to be noted first that S. Augustine is there disputing with the Donatists who amongst other things had obiected against the Catholikes for their errour Saint Cyprians auâ—horitie and his writings or Epistles and a Councell which he made wheâ—ein their tenet of rebaptization was â—ffirmed To which three points he â—here answers first if the example â—r authoritie of S. Cyprian were of â—uch esteeme with them they should â—ather followe him in embracing â—he communion of the * Si authoritas Cypriani seqâ—eÌ„da est magis ea sequenda est in vnitate seruanda quam in Ecclesiae consuetudine commutanda Si autem Concilium eius atteÌ„ditur huic est vniuersae Ecclesiae posterius Conciâ—â—um praeponendum S. Aug. li. 2. de Bap. c. 9 vide etiam c. 1. eiusdem li. Church which he did and not breake into â—hisme which was a thing he deâ—ested Secondlie the letters and wriâ—ngs of S. Cyprian and it is the â—me of other Bishops writings are â—ot to be presumed so entire for â—uth that nothing in them z Certè nobis obijcere soletis Cypriani literas Cypriani sententiam Cypriani concilium Cur authoritatem Cypriani pro vestro schismate assumitis eius exemplum pro Ecclesiae pace respuitis Quis autem nesciat Sanctaâ—â— Scripturam canonicam tam veteris quam noui testamenâ—ti certis suis terminis contineri eamque omnibus posteriorum Episcoporum literis ita praeponi vt de illa omniâ— no dubitari non possâ—t vtrum verum vel vtrum rectum fâ— quicquid in ea scriptum esse constiterit Episcoporum aâ—tem literas quae post confirmatum canonem vel scripsunt vel scribuntur per sermonem fortè sapientioreâ— cuiuslibet in ea re peritioris per aliorum episcoporuâ— grauiorem authoritatem doctiorumque prudentiam 〈◊〉 per concilia licere reprehendi si quid in eis fortè a veritaâ— deuiatum est Et ipsa concilia quae per singulas regiones 〈◊〉 vt suprà pag. 128. S. Aug. li. 2. de Baptis con Donatâ— c. 3. may â—e reprehended such integritie of an â—pistle or other writing vt de illa â—ninò dubitari disceptari non posâ— vtrum verum vel vtrum rectum 〈◊〉 quicquid inea Scriptum esse constiterit is the prerogatiue of holâ— Scripture Thirdlie prouinciall Synods such as that of S. Cyprian yeelâ— vnto generall Councells which aâ— assembled out of the whole worlâ— aa S. Aug. li. 2. cont Donat. cap. 9. vniuersum partibus semper inâ— optimo praeponitur the whole is desoâ—uedlie preferd before the part Such 〈◊〉 Councell hath now determined thâ— controuersie the world subscribeâ— and S. Cyprian would haue yeeldâ— too wherefore you haue no reasoâ— to stand any longer vpon his Couâ—cell or his writings or to pretend 〈◊〉 example and authoritie By this S. Augustine hath fullie answered the Donatists obiection Yet hauing by that occasion mentioned generall Councells * Our B. Sauiour sometimes in his answers taught more then was demaunded as Matth. 21 36. QueadmoduÌ„ in superioribus cuÌ„ de resurrectione interrogaretur plus docuit quaÌ„ tentantes petebant sic in hoc loco de primo interrogatus mandato secundum etiam non valdè quà m primum inferius spoâ—te attulit S. Chry. Homil. 72. in Matth. of him selfe he goes further and saies that some of those otherwhile may be â—mended also bb Suprà pag. 128. when by some experiment of things that is opened which was shut vp before and that knowne which was vnknowne Where aduisedlie treating of so great a matter â—he hath ballanced his words and not â—eft the speach absolute as he did the other next before of prouinciall Councells but limited it with two qualifications the one restraining it from being extended vnto all saepè not alwaies this but oft the other contracting it to the case or matter when that which was shut vp is opened by some experiment of things Which metaphor of opening he doth expound presentlie in other words not adding another case but expressing more the same which was before deliuered vnder the Metaphor of opening cognoscitur quod latebat and by the same experiment of things that is knowne which was before vnknowne Secondlie it is to be noted that S. Augustine doth vrge against these heretikes the definition of a generall Councell wherein by the consent as he speakes of the whole world the cc S. Aug. de Haeres n. 69. controuersie was decided and the truth established so that now the men were heretikes who resisted the veritie though before the definition they were not for holding what they did in this matter of rebaptization guiltie of so great a crime In this sort he doth excuse S. Cyprian and accuse or charge the Donatists S. August de Hares n. 69. They presume saies he to rebaptize Catholikes wherein they did further confirme thâ— they were heretikes it hauing seemeâ— good to the vniuersall Church not 〈◊〉 reuoake or as another lection hath it not to repeate the common baptisme euen in heretikes themselues And dd S. Aug li. 1. cont Donat. c. 7. the obscuritie of this question of baptisme disputed with the Donatists hath in the former times of the Church before the schisme of Donatuâ— compelled great men and those endoweâ— with great charitie Fathers Bishopâ— so to contend amongst themselues without breach of peace and so to wauer that the different decrees of Councels in their seuerall Countries did longe time shake vntill that which was most wholesomely iudged was remotis dubitationibus all doubts remoued established by a plenarie or generall Councell of the whole world Againe ee Ibidem cap. 18. before the consent of the whole world had established by the decree of a generall Councell what was to be embraced of all in this matter S. Cyprian with almost fourscore of his fellowe-Bishops of the Churches of Africk thought that euerie one who was baptized out of the communion of the Catholike Church was when he came to the Church to be baptized or christned againe And againe ff S. Aug. li. 2. cont Donat. c. 9. Consuetudinis robore tenebatur orbis terrarum haec sola opponebatur c. Ibidem as yet there had been no generall Councell assembled in that behalfe but the world was held in by the strength of custome
and this custome onlie was opposed to those which endeuoured to bring in that noueltie of rebaptization because they could not apprehend the truth yet afterwards whilst amongst many on both sides it is spoken of and sought it is not only sound out but also brought to the authoritie and strength of a generall Councell after Cyprians passion indeed but afore wee were borne And a litle after the words obiected gg c. 4. Neither durst wee affirme any such thing if wee were not well grounded vpon the most consenting or agreeable authoritie of the vniuersall Church vnto which vndoubtedlie he S. Cyprian would haue yeelded if as then the truth of this question being cleered and declared had been established by a generall Councell Hence it followes first that he did acknowledge in generall Councells authoritie to determine controuersies and this controuersie particularlie of rebaptization which you hh Error de rebaptizatione hereticorum qui certè fundamentalis â—o fuâ—â— noâ—dum erat in concilio plenario damnatus c. Baro p. 348. confesse was not in a matter fundamentall and that therein the truth was established by authoritie not of scripture this matter was not so resolued but of the world in a Councell and so farre established that all were to beleeue it and remotis dubitationibus without as much as doubting of it Whence it comes secondlie that to resist such a decree it is diabolicall which word he doth vse vppon another occasion and that such as maintaine the contrarie are indeed heretikes Thirdlie it is to be repeated which hath been said oft before that though wee maintaine the infallibilitie of sincere and approued generall Councells in their decrees of faith yet wee doe not beleeue that their infallibilitie is extended vnto all they write or speake and in all kinde of matter as not equallizing their acts with bookes of Scripture and consequentlie there may be something in such a Councell sometime that may need mending Neither yet doe wee maintaine or beleeue that all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall haue infallibilitie in their decrees some haue as those which are approued some haue not and these later may need mending euen in the decree they make touching faith Moreouer though the Councell that is plenarie and approued cannot commaund a vice or condemne vertue by decree yet may it commaund that which after may proue inconuenient or forbid what after may be admitted when circumstances are changed And if a lawe which at first was well made the circumstances of time and persons being afterwards other then they were before and notablie changed become inconuenient and consequentlie not good in these circumstances though good in it selfe and in other circumstances such as those were wherein it was first made it may be changed by power equall to that which made it The Apostles by decree did forbid the eating of suffocata things strangled yet afterwards when the circumstances were charged and feare of scandall quite remoued the Church began to doe the contrarie To frequent the ceremonies of the lawe now it were a Sinne peccaret mortalitersi quis nunc ceremonias obscruaret S. Tho. 1.2 q. 103. a. 4. though you knowe by what authoritie for the time they were commaunded If you be sick physick is good if you be well the same is bad for you The same thing may be conuenient and inconuenient good and bad in diuers circumstances When the common-wealth is distempered a lawe may be necessarie and at other times not vsefull yea inconuenient and therefore to be annulled And the common-wealth in anulling of it mends her Statute-booke respectiuelie to these later circumstances though when she made it first she did not commit a fault Fourthlie it is to be noted that by the doctrine of S. Augustine before deliuered there be some kinde of Councells which in their decrees of faith are not to be mended nor to be doubted of that it is hereticall to oppose them and consequentlie that they haue nor exteriour onlie but interiour obedience also remotis dubitationibus due to such their decrees which being manifest in him you labour in vaine to be extend his words obiected vnto all which were to make him contradict both the truth and the Church of his time and himselfe He saith and wee too that some generall Councells may be mended when by tryall or experiment that is opened which was shut vp and knowne which before was vnknowne but some generall Councells cannot be mended no nor questioned or doubted of in their decrees touching faith Now to your obiections in particular First you saie that he speakes of mending in matter of faith I answer that those words in matter of faith be your addition He speakes indeed of mending in such matters as by triall or experiment may be knowne but diuine verities which are the obiect of our faith be not of this nature Neither if there had been expressed in that clause which is of generall Councels matters of faith were you able to conclude any thing against vs for wee graunt that some which beare the name may be mended in that also Of all wee cannot graunt it without contradicting S. Augustine and making him withall to contradict himselfe Secondlie you saie that his scope or intention was to distinguish the authoritie of Scripture from all other authoritie wherefore since no generall Councell whatsoeuer is Scripture he meanes them all and will haue all subiect vnto mending I answer that he intended to satisfie three things obiected 1. S. Cyprians sentence or example 2. S. Cyprians writings 3. S. Cyprians Councell The comparison of Scripture is with writings and it is a part of his answer to the Second point as I haue related it And it is true that this writing hath the prerogatiue aboue all writings vide suprà pag. 130. pag. 106. marg that nothing at all can be questioned which it affirmes To S. Cyprians Epistles or any other mans wee owe not that seruice or honour Of Councels he speakes afterwards in the third place and you knowe that it is not essentiall to their decrees to be written There is also great difference betwixt Councells and the Scripture in infallibilitie as hath been showne many times although the decrees in faith of such as are approued are infallible But if you will haue him aime at this that all generall Councels whatsoeuer may be mended and in their decrees of faith you make him as before was obserued to contradict himselfe For these are contradictorie some may not as that of Nice and all may Moreouer by that saepè it is manifest that his speach is not generall as you would haue it saepè is short of Semper And the qualification which he doth vse is another argument of the same Thirdlie you saie that vnles S. Augustine speake in the words principallie obiected of amendment in matter of faith he leaues vnanswered the Donatists obiection But neither will this make any thing to your
purpose for before he comes to speake of amending plenarie Councells he hath fullie satisfied the three points of their argument taken from S. Cyprians example from his writings or Epistles and from his Coūcell his example should haue moued them rather to adhere vnto the Church his writings were not canonicall Scripture they might haue something in them liable to reprehension Suprà in marg c. in additionibus and his Councell being onlie nationall was to giue place to a generall There staies their argument whollie satisfied The rest was added for a fuller illustration of the matter of Councells wherevnto that occasion had led him They be not all of one nature some kinde of mending or other they be subiect to sometimes though not all vnto the same Wee doe not of necessitie so adhere vnto them all as if nothing in any Saepè priora à posterioribus emendantur But I pray you what amendment had he seene in the Decrees of faith of approued generall Councels shew me the saepè there Name out of him the Coūcells and the decrees so mēded might be better then it is The Ariminian was generall but he would not maintaine it the second Ephesine was generall yet the Councell of Chalcedon did anull it Yea suppose the decrees of faith be all right and the Councell lawfull and approued yet something otherwhiles may be mended as when by some experiment of things that comes to light which before was vnknowne Moreouer in that you saie the Donatists argument is not answered vnles it be graunted that any generall Councell whatsoeuer may be mended in their decree touching faith you seeme to call their heresie againe into dispute for that which S. Augustine so much vrgeth against them and it was the thing indeed which choked that Heresie was the decree of a generall Councell And it is strange you should imagine that he doth heere in the same booke disauow the same decree as if his answer to their weake obiection could not haue place but by cutting the throate of his owne Argument which they durst not looke vpon and that his owne forces of necessitie must be ruined and oppressed with the fall of their cause Looke better on his words and in them you shall finde that he resolued as wee do He saith touching this Controuersie with the Donatists that it was taken into consideration and the (1) Nec nos ipsitale aliquid auderemus asserere nisi vniuersae Ecclesiae concordissima authoritate firmati cui ipse Cyprianus sine dubio cederet si iam illo tēpore quaestionis huius veritas eliquata declarata per pleuarium Concilium solidaretur S Aug li. 2. de Bapt. c 3. truth declared and (2) Postea tamen dum inter multos ex vtraque parte tractatur quaeritur non solum inuenta est veritas sed etiam ad plenarij Concilij authoritatē roburque perducta c. 9. established by the (3) vt suprà num 1. 2. authoritie not by plaine Scripture there was none but by the authoritie of the (4) Si autem Concilium eius Cypriani attēditur huic est vniuersae Ecclesiae posterius Concilium praeponendum cap. 9. vt suprà Totus Catholicus orbis amplexus est li. 1. c. 18. vniuersall Church and this authoritie not in the Laietie or diffused but in (5) suprà plenario totius orbis Concilio c. 7. a Councell wherein the (6) Antequam plenarij Concilij sententia quid in hac resentiendum esset totius Ecclesiae consensio confirmasset li. 1. c. 18. whole Church did in (7) Ibid. a Decree expresse her minde So that although before men perchance might (8) Salua pace disceptare atque fluctuare vt diu conciliorum in suis quibusque regionibus diuersa statuta nutauerint donec li. 1 c. 7. doubt or stagger in the matter it was now to be beleeued (9) Donec plenario totius orbis concilio quod saluberrimè sentiebatur etiam remotis dubitationibus firmaretur Ibidem remotis dubitationibus and (10) nutauerint donec Ibid. Cui ipse sine dubio cederet c vt suprà obedience to be giuen to the decree whereof (11) Ammedera dixit Et hoc ego idem censeo Haereticos baptizandos esse Huic respondetur Sed non hoc censet Ecclesia cui Deus iam plenario etiam Concilio reuelauit quod tunc adhuc aliter quidem sapiebatis sed quia in vobis charitas salua erat in vnitate permanebatis S. Aug li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. vide disput p. 404. God had beene author by all who would not expose themselues to be (12) Scripturarum etiam in hac re à nobis tenetur veritas cum hoc facimus quod vniuersae iam placuit Ecclesiae li 1. cont Crescon c. 33. quisquis falli metuit eandem consulat c. Ibidem vt suprà deceaued and most perniciouslie striue against (13) Quòd si non vis non mihi aut cuiquam homini qui vult ita suscipere sed ipsi Saluatori contra salutem tuam perniciosissimè reluctatis qui te sic susciptendum esse non vis credere quemadmodum suscipit illa Ecclesia quam testimonio suo commendat ille cui fateris nefarium esse non credere De vnit Eccles c 19. our Sauiour himself and confirme or assure themselues to be (14) Audent etiam Donatistae rebaptizare Catholicos vbi se ampliûs Haereticos esse firmarunt cùm Ecclesiae Catholicae vniuersae placuerit nec in ipsis Haereticis baptisma rescindere S. Aug. de Haeres num 69. expende verbum illud ampliùs quod indicat gradum in eodem genere Hereticks This I trow doth import as much as wee teach of a Councells authoritie And the grounds whereby S. Augustine could haue defended himself at that time and in that case be the same whereby wee now defend our selues in other causes of no lesse importance as of the reall presence propitiatorie Sacrifice prayer for the dead and the like the diuine assistance being not tied peculiarlie vnto that Age wherein S. Augustine liued Fourthlie you saie those words cognoscitur quod latebat and that it knowne which was before vnknowne be meant in matter of faith because matters of faith doe come to light after they haue been vnknowne As if this were a peculiar thing in matters of faith and not common to diuers other matters euen those which by experiment may be knowne to come to light after inquisition there are many other verities which may so come to light besides matters of faith and therefore vnlesse you will argue from the genus to the species affirmatiuelie as thus it is aliuing creature therefore it is a man which manner of discourse is absurd you cannot out of those generall words make it good or proue that he meanes matter of faith not if this part were disioyned frō the former with a
vel for there were yet other things which might so come to light besides matters of faith all other verities are not manifested by triall and experiment though some be much lesse can you doe it â—f you consider that the later part and the former be coupled into the same sence by the coniunctiue 〈◊〉 answer secondlie that were matâ—ers of faith expressed in that part 〈◊〉 for of that part onlie which conâ—ernes plenarie Councells I speake â—s it is manifest they be not still â—ou were short of your aime for some kinde of generall Councells such as are vnlawfull or such as are lawfull but not approued though you would neuer be able to proue so much out of this place might neede mending and yet approued and confirmed Councels need none I knowe that some of yours doe sleight the distinction of confirmed and not confirmed Councels as a thing not knowne to S. Augustine and other Auncients but they be mistaken much If you looke into the tome of his Epistles you will see that kk S. Aug. Ep. 90. he with many other Bishops in a Councell wrote vnto Pope Innocentius to confirme their acts and decree made against those errours which Pelagius and Caelestiâ—â— had auouched vt statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur authoritas that to the decreeâ— of our mediocritie the authoritie of the See Apostolike be added And afterwards error impietas quae tam multos assertores habet per diuersa dispersos etiaÌ„ Apostolicae sedis authoritate anathematizanda est The errour and impietie of those men which hath so many abbetters and those disperseâ— in diuers parts or places is to be anathematized also by the authoritie of the See Apostolike Wherevnto the Pope answers and his Epistle is there ll Apud S Aug. Epist 91. also first commending them for requiring as they ought to doe the iudgment of the See Apostolike scientes quid Apostolicae sedi debeatur Secondlie confirming this obligation the Fathers saith he non humana sed diuina decreuere sententia vt quicquid de disiunctis remotisque prouincijs ageretur non prius ducerent finiendum nisi ad huius sedis notitiam perueniret vbi tot a huius authoritate iusta que fuerit pronunciatio firmaretur the fathers haue decreed by a sentence not humane but diuine marke the words that whatsoeuer should be donne in disâ—oyned and remote prouinces they should not esteeme it to be ended vnles it come first to the notice of this See where the proposition or sentence which is iust should be established with the whole authoritie of this Thirdlie he declates quisquis huic assentiens videtur esse sententiae speaking of the the Pelagian errour nimium se Catholicae fidei Dei beneficijs profitetur ingratum who soeuer seemes to consent into this opinion doth professe himselfe an enemie to the Catholike faith and ingratefull to gods benefits And in fine he cuts the faction of from communion separetur ergo c. Neither doth S. Augustine omit to giue notice of this answer for in the 106. Epistle hauing signified the sending of the acts of the foresaid Councell and of another also against the same errours together with letters to the same purpose to Pope Innocentius he saith mm S. Aug. Epist. 106. vide eundem Epist. 104. item serm 2. de verbis Apostoli li. 2. cont duas Epist Pelag. c. 3. ad omnia nobis ille rescripsit eodem modo quo fas erat atque oportebat Apostolicae sedis antistitem He wrote vs an answer to all things in such manner as a Bishop of the see Apostolike lawfullie might before god and ought to doe Adding also els-where that by those letters dubitatio tota sublata est alâ— doubt in that matter was taken away I omit to put you further in minde that the Councell of nn Relat. Conc. Chalc. ad Leonem Papam Chalcedon asked of Leo the great as their Head and Father confirmation of their decrees which he also gaue though oo Leo Papa Epist 55. ad Pulch. Aug. not in all they desired and thereby did manifest the fullnes of his authoritie It were easie to bring many examples in this kind were I professedlie to treat of it but keeping my self as I haue donne hetherto to those authors you obiect it sufficeth to satisfie by S. Augustines authoritie the difficulties which you bring out of S. Augustine The necessitie of the Popes approbation you finde elswhere Disput li. 4. c. 4. and it is a thing so manifest by the Scripture Matth. 16. Ioan. 21. that he in his Predecessor S. Peeter is peculiarlie designed as Chiefe of those Pastors on whom the Church is to relie for the knowledg and meaning of Gods word according to the Apostles doctrine Ephes 4. Ephes 2.20 Epist Iudae v. 20 which Pastors are therefore assisted accordinglie to support the faithfull built vppon them that all other interpretation which would exclude it is violent vnto the text and Disput li. 4. c. 1. 2. inasmuch as it labours to remoue the foundation which our Sauiour laide doth indeuour though vainelie for it is more then Hell can do to ruine the whole Church The pretence of plaine Scripture or of manifest reason such as an vnderstanding man considering cannot but assent vnto against the consent of all the Pastors in a Councell is openly insufficient because it doth suppose and without yea against all reason that they the Pastors with all their Exercise in Diuinitie and diligent inquisition looking into and considering the words of Scripture comparing texts together examining the traditions of the Church perusing former Councels with the writings of the Fathers and other monuments of antiquitie and assisted by the Holie Ghost their interiour Master be not as able as their aduersaries to conceaue plaine Scripture Innumerabiles sunt qui se videntes non solùm â—actaÌ„t sed à Christo illuminatos videri volunt sunt autem Haeretici S. Augu. in Ioan. tract 45. and reason so manifest or that conceauing and vnderstanding it they should be all so malicious and our Sauiour so vnmindfull of his promise as to propose vnto the world and oblige it to beleeue as our Sauiours words the contrarie But it is familiar in such Opponents as want them selues that Authoritie which the Sonne of God hath established to keepe vs from Errour to pretend euident Scripture and manifest pp Illi qui cum in vnitate atque communione catholica noÌ„ sint Christiano tamen nomine gloriantur coguntur aduersari credentibus audent imperitos quasi ratione traducere quando maximé cum ista medicina Dominus venerit vt fidem populis imperaret Sed hoc facere coguntur quia iacere se abiectissimè sentiunt si eorum authoritas cum authoritate catholica conferatur Conantur ergo authoritatem stabilissimam fundatissimae Ecclesiae quasi rationis nomine pollicitatione
superare Omnium enim Haereticorum quasi regularis est ista temeritas Sed ille fidei imperator clementissimus per conuentus celeberrimos populorum atque gentium sedesque ipsas Apostolorum arce authoritatis muniuit Ecclesiam per pauciores piè doctos verè spirituales viros copiosissimis apparatibus etiam inuictissimae rationis armauit S. Aug. Epist ad Diosc 56. reason against the Church to the end they may seeme to bring something greater for to oppresse or ouercome her authoritie as S. Augustine well obserued long agoe And by the like stratagem did the pagaÌ„s heeretefore striue to withdraw men whollie from the Creede by shewing the contrarie so cleerelie that no doubt as they pretended could be made of it which was a way they thought to get qq In Catholica me tenet consensio populorum atque gentium c. apud vos autem vbi nihil horum est quod me inuitet ac teneat sola personat veritatis pollicitatio quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur vt in dubium venire non possit praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in catholica teneor Si autem tantummodo promittitur non exhibetur nemo me mouebit ab ea fide quae animum meum tot tantis nexibus Christianae religionis astringit S. Aug. contra Epist Manich. Fundam c. 4. Promittebaâ— scientiam veritatis nunc quod nescio cogis vt credam c. 5. Multò iustiùs cautiùs facio si catholicis quoniam semel credidi ad te non transeo nisi me non credere iusteris sed manifestissimè ac apertissimè scire aliquid feceris Quocirca si mihi rationem redditùrus es dimitte Euangelium Si ad Euangelium me tenes ego ad eos me teneam quibus praecipientibus Euangelio credidi his iubentibus tibi omnino non ctedam Quod si fortè in Euangelio aliquod apertissimum de Manichaei apostolatu inuenire potueris infirmabis mihi catholicorum authoritatem qui iubent mihi vt tibi non credam Qua infirmata iam nec Euangelio credere potero c. Sed absit vt ego Euangelio non credam Ibidem schollers but it proued a meere bragge §. X. 1. Optatus cited his Aduersaries who refused to submitte them selues to the Church to be tryed by the Testament admitted by themselues But the cause it self was in the iudgment of the whole Catholike world to be decided in a Councell and was in fine so determined 2. For finding out the truth in matter of faith recourse is to be made to the fountaine VOs dicitis licet nos non licet inter licet vestrum non licet nostrum nutant remigant animi populorum Nemo vobis credat nemo nobis omnes contentiosi homines sumus Esto Quaerendi sunt iudices si Christiani de vtraque parte dari non possunt quia studijs veritas impeditur Deforis quaerendus est Iudex si paganus non potest nosse Christiana secreta si Iudaeus inimicus est Christiani baptismatis Ergo in terriâ— nullum de hac re reperiri poâ—erit iudictum de caelo quaerendus est Iudex Sed vt quid palsamus ad caelum cum habeamus hic in Euangelio testamentum Baro p. 328. ex Optato 1. HAuing answered what was obiected out of S. Augugustine he will vndertake for vs to satisfie that you bring from Optatus and where he lookes about for a Iudge to decide the controuersie moued by the Donatists this great Doctour doth answer yea the a S. Aâ—g contra Donatiâ—tas passim Specialiter vide li. 2. de Bapt c. 7 li 5. c. 23. li. 1. coâ—t Cresc c. 31. 32 whole Catholike world did agree that the matter was to be defined in Councell and that not by cleere scripture there was none but by tradition By the testament yes not the written but the nuncupatiue By the holie Ghost c S Aug suprà inter citat ex Ock lit 1. a iudge from heauen but speaking b in a Councell The whole world did iudge that this verie Controuersie whereof Optatus speakes was to be determined so and accordinglie it was so determined and ended Neither doth Optatus denie that which all Catholikes when Saint Augustine wrote graunted and he himselfe yeelded as much of the c Serpit corum sermo vâ—lut cancer dixit hoc de haereticis quorum caeperat esse illis temporibus vitiosa doctrina c. Dictum est hoc de Arrio cuius doctrina nisi Nicaeno Concilio à 318. Episcopis dissiparetur pectora multorum sicut cancer intrauerat Optat. Milleu li. 4. Nicene Councell of whose authoritie wee shall presentlie heare more from S. Anathasius who was in it that the Church which hath promise of assistance or the Pastors all assembled in a CouÌ„cell those whom the holie Ghost hath placed to gouerne and our Sauiour hath giuen to keepe vs from being borne about with euerie winde of doctrine haue power to determine a controuersie in Religion But the Donatists excepting against the Catholikes as parties in the cause he betakes himselfe to scripture against which being admitted on both sides that pretended exception had no place children that contend about a Legacie both admit their father testament and if there his words decide the controuersie they rest and so he pleades the Donatists must do when the words of our Sauiours will or testament be showed vnles they proceede as they had denied Church-authoritie so to denie that and him So on he goes to shewe the thing inscripture But what if the words of the testameÌ„t be obscure The matter then requires a Iudge and this Iudge must haue authoritie and assistance if the case be as this was about diuine faith which assistance none hath but by vertue of our Sauiours promise and his promise was made to none but to the Church not to Pagans nor heretikes but to the Church wherefore the Church is to iudge Yet further what if the words of the testament haue it not at all the question was Whether one baptized by an heretike was to be baptized againe when he came into the Church The answer to which Question you doe not finde in scripture the d Qui lotus est c. place which Optatus brings doth not mention such as were baptized by heretikes There is not in all scripture Saint Augustine saies an e Quamuia huius rei certè de scripturis canonicis non proferatur exemplum c. S. Aug. li. cont Cresc c. 33 vt suprà Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt sed consuetudo illa quae opponebatur Cypriano ab eorum traditione exordium sumpsisse credenda est sicut sunt multa quae vniuersa tenet Ecclesia ob hoc ab Apostolis praecepta benè creduÌ„tur quanquam scripta non reperian tur li. 5. de bapt c. 23. Cùm in Scripturis non inueniamus aliquos c. De vnitate
Ecclesiae c. 19. example of it Shall the matter then rest and the Donatists against the custome and practize of the Church obtaine the cause There is yet a remedie and this is to call a Councell from all parts of the world and there by the promised assistance to decide it Which was done accordinglie and in the heart of the Church symbolicall the booke wherein Christian Religion is written by the spirit of the liuing God it was found and brought to light and proposed And to this iudgment all Catholikes afterward did subscribe and S. Cyprian also who in his time thought the other more probable would if wee beleeue Saint Augustine most willinglie haue donne and such as would not hauing notice of it were and are accounted Heretikes 2. Hence that I note this by the way wee take an Argument against you to proue by the iudgment of Antiquitie two things 1. that the Church can propose and oblige vs to beleeue that which she hath receaued onlie by word of mouth 2. that our Sauiour did not limit his promised Assistance to fundamentalls onlie Not onlie to fundamentals nor onlie to the written word Wee haue I saie in these two things the iudgment of the Church which was in and before Saint Augustines daies against you They did inquire diligentlie what had beene taught formerlie what tradition had been left in the Church by those who first planted Religion in it they made recourse to the fountaine Which kind of proceeding for the resolution of difficulties had beene commended to them from the f Quid enim si de aliqua modica quaestione disceptatio esset noÌ„ne oporteret in antiquissimas recurrere Ecclesias in quibus Apostoli conuersati sunt ab ijs de praesenti quaestione sumere quod certum reliquidum est Quid autem si neque Apostoli quidem Scripturas reliquissent nobis nonne oportebat ordinem sequi Traditionis quam tradiderunt ijs quibus committebant Ecclesias cuâ—â—ordinationi assentiunt multae gentes Barbarorum eorum qui in Christum credunt sinc charactere vel atramento scriptam habentes per Spiritum in cordibus suis salutem veterem traditionem diligenter custodientes c. S. Irenaeus adu Haeres li 3. c 4. cuius capitis initio Non oportet inquit adhuc quaerere apud alios veritatem cùm Apostoli quasi in depositorium diues plenissimè in ea Ecclesia contulerint omnia quae sint veritatis vti omnis quicunque velit sumat ex ea potum vitae Et Optatus in hanc sententiam Nam fontem inquit constat vnam esse de dotibus vnde Haeretici non possunt vel ipsi bibere vel alios potare ita li. 2. Caeterùm lege in Irenaeo c. 3. li. 3. vbi de traditione praeclarè disserit In compendio est apud religiosas simplices mentes errorem deponere inuenire atque cruere veritatem Nam si ad diuinae Traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat error humanus sacramentorum coelestium ratione perspecta quicquid sub caligine ac nube tenebrarum obscurum latebat in lucem veritatis aperitur Si canalis aquam ducens qui copiosè priùs largiter profluebat subitò deficiat nonne ad fontem pergitur vt illic defectionis ratio noscatur vtrumne arescentibus venis in capite vnda siccauerit siccata sit an verò integra inde plena procurrens in medio itinere destiterit vt si vitio interrupti aut bibuli canalis effectum est quo minus aqua continua perseueranter ac iugiter flueret refecto confirmato canali ad vsum atque potum ciuitatis aqua collecta eadem vbertate atque integritate representetur qua de fonte proficiscitur Quod nunc facere oportet Dei Sacerdotes praecepta diuina seruantes vt si aliquo nutauerit vacillauerit veritas ad originem Dominicam Euangelicam Apostolicam Traditionem reuertamur inde surgat actus nostri ratio vnde ordo origo surrexit S. Cyprianus Epist 74 ad Pompeium De qua ep vide S. Aug li. 5. contra Donat. c. 23 25. Vide etiam de modo veritatem inuestigandi Tertullianum lib. de Praescript c. 19. 20. 21. c. beginning and was in after-ages still approued as appeares by the * See the Tomes of Councels practice of the Church vpoÌ„ all occasions of importance §. XI Saint Athanasius esteemed it a vaine thing for those who would not stand vnto the Nicene decree to call for Councels He did esteeme the decree of it infallible Of diuers infallible Authorities one may he more powerfull and commaunding then another FRustra igitur circumcursitantes praetexerunt ob fidem se Synodos postulare cum sit diuina Scriptura omnibus potentior Quod si ad hanc rem vsus Synodi desideratur supersunt acta patrum nam neque in hac parte negligentes fuere qui Niceae conuenerunt sed ita accuratè scripserunt vt qui sinceriter eorum scripta legat facilè reminiscatur eius in Christum religionis quae à sacris literis annunciatur Baro. p. 327. ex Athanasio S. ATHANASIVS was at the Councell of Nice where the Arian heresie was anathematized and the Catholike faith established yet he is also brought against the authoritie of all generall Councells first because he tels the Arians who would not staÌ„d to the iudgmeÌ„t of that CouÌ„cell which was oecumenicall and yet cried out for Councells that in vaine they runne about the world pretending they required Councells for the faith whereas the diuine scripture is more powerfull then all Secondlie because he saith that who so reades the writings or acts of the Nicene fathers they will easilie call to minde that Religion which is showed in holie scripture I am not yet so learned as to conceaue how the infallibilitie of CouÌ„cels is any waie contradicted in these words so farre I am from thinking that this great Saint did forget himselfe and vndoe what with others he before had donne The decree of the Nicene Councell together with the Acts did so bring to minde the faith commended in the scripture that withall it had force he saith enough to a Quis vsus quaeso Conciliorum quum Nicaenum CoÌ„cilium aduersus Arianam caeterasque haereses satis valeat S. Athanas de Synodis Indecens nefarium aliquid ex rectè iustè decretis ex rebus Niceae publicè cum illustrissimo principe Constantino patre tuo per accuratam deliberationem constitutis immutare velle c. per quam Synodum non illa sola sed reliquae haereses sublatae sunt in qua certè addere aliquid temerarium est auferre periculosum Ibidem epist Synod ad Constantium August â—ufficiunt ea quae Niceae confessa fuere satisque per se viâ—um habent tum ad subuersionem impij dogmatis tum ad â—telam vtilitatemque
Ecclesiasticae doctrinae Idem in Eâ—st ad Episc Africae ouerthrowe the coÌ„trarie and to put the matter b Ego arbitrabar omniuÌ„ quotquot vnquaÌ„ fuere haereticorum inanem garrulitateÌ„ Nicaeno Concilio sedatam esse naÌ„ fides quae inibi a Patribus secuÌ„duÌ„ sacras Scripturas tradita confessionibus confirmata est satis mihi idonea efficax que videbatur ad omnem impietatem euertendam pietatem eius quae in Christo est fidei constituendaÌ„ Atque ideo diuersis Concilijs per GalliaÌ„ Hispanias Romae celebratis omnes qui in eo conuentu fuere istos luci fugas qui sese etiamnum occultant quae Arrij sunt sapiunt commâ— calculo vnius Spiritus incitatu anathemate percusserunt eâ— quod isti sibi nomina vendicauerint Synodorum c. 〈◊〉 Athanas Epist ad Epictet Qua igitur audacia fit vt post tanti Concilij authoritatem disceptationes aut quaestiones infâ—tuant Ibidem out 〈◊〉 question and so farre that who 〈◊〉 did oppose themselues were c Ego autem demiratus sum tuam pietatem haec sustinuisse quod non simul istos compescuerit piamâ—dem in Concilio Nicaeno traditam vt suprà illis proposâ—erit vt ijs auditis vel in quietem se darent vel si inquieti intradicerent haeretici homines iudicarentur Ibidem â—ereticks It was a vaine thing so he steemed it in the Arians by other CouÌ„cells to seek to reuerse what was â—â—ere established the definition of â—â—e holie Ghost there made the word â—f God by that Councell remaines foâ—uer d Vanus eorum labor qui contra illud Nicenum aliâ— subinde concilia moliuntur quippe qui plusquam decem synodos iam instituerint in singulis semper aliquid innouantes c. ignari interim omnem plantationem quaâ— non plantauerit pater caelestis cradicandam esse verbâ—â— autem illud Domini per oecumenicam Niceae Synodum in aternum manet S Athanas Epist. ad Episc Africae verbum illud Domini per â—licaenum Concilium manet in aeterâ—um As for the comparison which he â—akes with scripture it e Catholici Scripturam Sacram non subijciunt sed anteponunt Concilijs neque in hoc vlla controuersia esâ— Bellarm. li. 2. de Concilijs c. 12. Quod si interdum aliqâ— Catholici dicunt Scripturam pendere ab Ecclesia siue 〈◊〉 Concilio non intelligunt quoad authoritatem secundum se sed quoad explicationem quoad nos Ibidem hurteth â—ot He that saith the scripture where it is plaine and vniuersallie â—eceaued is more powerfull then a Councell or that the eternall veâ—tie opeÌ„lie reuealed as it is to Saints 〈◊〉 more powerfull then scripture â—oth not preiudice infallibilitie Both â—ay haue it and yet one be more â—owerfull And this supposed visit â—hat both scripture and the Counâ—ell be infallible but the power of cripture more the discourse of S. Athanasius is conuincing He thaâ— will not submit his iudgment to thaâ— authoritie which is most powerfull doth in vaine pretend he will be ruled by the lesse he doth easilie contemne a Councell who contemneâ— the Scripture proposed by the vniuersall Church as the Arians did who contradicted open Scripture and all Antiquitie Neither doth this make any thing against the decision of controuersies by Councells for though the waie of Councells be a certaine waie to determine what wee must beleeue yet may there be another way to finde it out and that certaine too And doubtles he that seeth in scripture that which he knowes the whole symbolicall Church that which holds out the booke wherein â—he reades it doth beleeue is more powerfullie moued to giue assent then he that heares a Councell onâ—ie And our assent is more proue when the Prophets and Apostles all propose the same then when one alone doth auouch it though one Prophet or Apostle by himselfe be sufficient and infallible §. XII Vincentius Lirinensis will haue Church-authoritie relied vpon in matter of faith as certaine and vndoubted How a man is to carrie himself when matter of faith is questioned The way to finde the Catholike sence Generall Councels infallible in their decrees and those are Hereticks that contradict and oppose them SAepe magno studio summa attentione perquirens à quaplurimis sanctitate doctrina praestantibus viris quonam modo possim certa quadam quasi generali ac regulari viâ— Catholicae fidei veritatem ab haereticae prauitatis falsitate discâ—nere huiusmodi semper responsum ab omnibus ferèretuli Quoâ— siue ego siue quis alius vellet exurgentium hereticorum fraâ—des deprehendere laqueosque vitare in fide sanus atque integer permanere duplici modo munire fidem suam Domino adiouante deberet Primò scilicet diuinae legis authoritate tuâ— deinde Ecclesiae Catholicae traditione Baro p. 349. ex vincent Lycin c. 1. VINCENTIVS LIRINENSIS The argument taken from this Father is that in his golden treatise entitled Aduersus prophanas haereseô◠nouationes he hath omitted to specifie generall Councells and their decrees and diuers leaues are spent tâ— proue that he did not giue vnto them any place in the direction of our beleefe But no paines will serue Hâ— doth more then once or twice mention them and hath testified whaâ— he thought of their authoritie Two generall a Vicent Lyrin c. 1. waies there are to distinguish the truth from errour in matâ—er of Religion the one by Scripture â—he other by Tradition but the scripture is profound and obscure wheâ—evpon it hath come to passe that diuers heretikes haue interpreted it â—iuers waies so that to knowe the â—ight meaning of it it is necessarie â—o recurre to tradition and as he â—aith in the second chapter of his booke b Idem c. 2. vide Disp li. 5. c 1. li. 4. c. 8. pag. 405. pag. 395 fine that the line of the propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Ecclesiasticall and Catholike sence Which Catholik sence may be found three waies chieflie according as he conceaues it one is to see if it be held by the symbolicall or vniuersall Church a second is to see if it be held by the Fathers each writing in his owne time a third to see whether it be defined in any generall Councell By these three waies principallie a man is directed to the Catholik or true sence of scripture and all three are not necessarie but any of the three will serue the turne c Vâ—iâ—nt c. â— In the Catholik Church saith he wee must haue a great care wee hold that which hath bene beleeued euery where that which hath been beleeued euer that which hath been beleeued by all for this is truelie and properlie Catholick as the power of the name and the definition doth declare which truelie doth comprehend all vniuersallie And this is donne in fine if we follow vniuersalitie antiquitie consent Vniuersalitie wee shall follow
he which contemneth you coÌ„temneth me wee must beleeue that when all deliuer one and the same thing as Gods word or meaning vnto the world then without all doubt our Sauiour speakes by them and he who heares or contemnes them doth heare or contemne Iesus Christ whose ministers and Embassadors they be 2. Corint 5. Neither doe you satisfie this argument by saying that you will heare them if they speake according to the word of God Disput li. 3. c. 1. 2. for therein you challenge vnto your selfe without warrant that which you denie to the whole clergie who in the Apostles were bid teach and had the promise of assistance and in the Question Whether they or you haue the true sence of Gods word as of this This is my body you most arrogantlie doe make your selfe the iudge Your selfe I say without the Spirit denying in the meane time and impugning the power of iudging in this case in and to them which haue and shewe the promise of the Spirit Vt Diodorum ac Theod. non expellereÌ„t PP aut inuenerunt eos iam mutasse sententiam aut quod extremum est admonitos mutate fecerunt Nam aliter coâ— in Ecclesia Catholica manere potuisse quis sapiens Catholicus credat Cum verò tanta quae dicta sunt ego indoctus Latinae linguae de causa apud Graecos habita post centum annos pro meo captu facultate vel intelligere vel explicare potuerim quanta credendum est illam Sanctorum Patrum Congregationem in causa penes se recenti memoria cognoscere potuisse illo etiam reuelante qui dixit Vbi sunt duo vel tres congregati in nomine meo ibi in medio eorum sum Nam fideliter inuocatus non solum à Sacerdotibus sed ab omni quoque populo suo cuius fides expectatio ex illorum Authoritate dependet dat omnibus congregatis vnum cor animam vnam vt nullus eorum suam velit esse sententiam nisi quae fuerit veritatis Quoâ—ies ibi doctiores indoctioribus plures paucioribus illo eorum medio cedunt Qâ—oties etiam per nescientes scienter operatur ipse qui potest omnia facere supra quam petimus aut intelligimus qui promisit quòd nobiscum sit omnibus diâ—bus vsque ad consummationem saeculi Vtinam sibi nunquam saecularis potestas quod ei creditum non est in his negotijs vsurparet quae nunquam faeliciter vsurpauit Caeterùm congregatis in suo nomine Christus deesse non potest quia cùm sit omnipotens Veritas mentiri nullatenus potest Facund Episc Defens Chalced. Concilij li 8. c. 7. Et in eandem sententiam plura li. 12. c. 2. inter alia verò de sancto Leone dicit Neque vlterius retractare neque discutere se posse professus est ea quae semel fuerant Chalcedonensi definita Concilio velut quae nosset non tam humano quà m diuino Spiritu constituta This Father as also S. Aug. when they saie God reueales vnto the Councell vse the word something largelie in the sence imported in the promise of Assistance docebit vos suggeret vobis See the Disput pag 404. See the Disput l. 3. c. 6. Fourthly he that seeth the truth of this and would yet flie Councells will imagine perchance that although the Pastors all dispersed when they consent haue the warrant of the Spirit yet not when they be gathered in a Councell But this imaginatioÌ„ argues a weaknes in coÌ„ceauing the termes which are spoken of for in this congregation or Councell there is the whole teaching-power which teaching power as hath been shewed hath and by promise diuine assistance and is to establish the rest predestinate and all in faith and true beleefe Fiftlie you will saie that in generall Councells all the Pastors or Bishops be not present if they were you would beleeue what they propose because the whole exteriour teaching-authoritie is there obliging and they shewe their warrant Luc. â—0 he that heareth you heareth me Would your fellowes doe this there were but one thing more to be disputed in this matter that is Whether it be necessarie to the generalitie of a CouÌ„cell that all the Pastors and Bishops without exception be actuallie present in it the resolution of which Question wee haue in the practice of the Apostles and of the primitiue Church so that no further difficultie can be pretended if the truth be reallie our desire and hereticall obstinacie put aside See the Disput li. 4. c. 7. 8. Against the later place which brings with it the Apostles interpretation of the promise registred in the former it is said first that although that Councell had the assistance of the holie Ghost in making of their decree so that it was his also as their words import yet others after haue it not it was you think a priuiledge in them and lasted no longer in the Church but wilst they liued This euasion is precluded both by the words and the circumstances of the graunt it was made vnto the Apostles as Pastors for establishing of the Church dedit Pastores Ephes 4. vt iam non simus paruuli fluctuantes circumferamur c. which Church needed it not onelie in the Apostles time but afterwards The Arian Sabellian Nestorian and other Heresies as other difficulties whereof some were about the most fundamentall points in the verie Creed did arise and the diuel hath not yet donne suggesting heresie and oppugning the doctrine which our Sauiour left vnto the Church and thereby impugning Him and Her wherefore still it is necessarie And accordinglie the promise was absolute without limitation of yeeres or ages Yea the text it selfe hath in aeternum Ioann 14. Ephes 4. for euer and donec occurramus omnes vntill wee meete all Secondlie it is said that vnto Pastors so assembled the holie Ghost by vertue of the promise is present assisting to fundamentall points but no further Before you would haue detracted from the graunt and wiped out of it the latitude of time now you limit it for the matter If a Lawier should vse your lease so you would exclaime that he did corrupt it WheÌ„ our Sauiour had prayed to his Father that he would establish or Sanctifie his Apostles and those who by their meanes were to beleeue in him that is his Church in the truth he did presentlie vnfould what he meant by that truth and said sermo tuus est veritas thy word the word of God is the truth and in this which comprehends not the Apostles Creed onlie he would haue theÌ„ established This sanctification is according to S. Cyrill a participation of the holy Ghost ad intelligendas rectè Scripturas Ecclesiae dogmata Cyrill Alex. in Ioan. li. 11. cap. 25. to vnderstand the Scriptures well and the doctrine of the Church In a like fullnes doth our Sauiour himselfe expresse the latitude of