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church_n communion_n schism_n separation_n 6,688 5 9.9679 5 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A56736 An answer to Vox cleri, &c. examining the reasons against making any alterations and abatements, in order to a comprehension and shewing the expediency thereof. Payne, William, 1650-1696. 1690 (1690) Wing P896; ESTC R36661 22,857 39

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agree_v better_o with_o some_o constitution_n than_o more_o substantial_a food_n and_o better_a instruction_n let_v the_o dissenter_n crave_v as_o long_o as_o they_o will_v i_o hope_v the_o church_n can_v deny_v as_o stiff_o as_o they_o crave_v unreasonable_o and_o i_o be_o perfect_o of_o our_o author_n mind_n though_o he_o have_v not_o dr._n beveridge_n authority_n for_o it_o that_o to_o alter_v the_o episcopal_a government_n to_o take_v the_o power_n of_o ordination_n from_o bishop_n and_o place_n it_o in_o the_o hand_n of_o prsbyter_n to_o take_v away_o a_o well_o order_v liturgy_n and_o bring_v in_o extemporary_a prayer_n for_o public_a worship_n to_o give_v every_o minister_n a_o jurisdiction_n and_o power_n of_o excommunication_n and_o many_o other_o thing_n without_o which_o some_o grave_a dissenter_n will_v not_o be_v comprehend_v be_v more_o than_o the_o learned_a doctor_n or_o any_o doctor_n in_o england_n will_v grant_v or_o desire_v to_o be_v grant_v to_o they_o but_o 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some_o who_o think_v themselves_o mighty_a politician_n nay_o he_o tell_v we_o that_o the_o author_n of_o the_o two_o letter_n may_v be_v papist_n who_o by_o such_o art_n seek_v to_o divide_v that_o they_o may_v destroy_v we_o now_o this_o be_v the_o deep_a plot_n of_o the_o papist_n if_o it_o be_v one_o that_o ever_o be_v lay_v to_o destroy_v and_o blow_v up_o the_o church_n and_o if_o those_o who_o be_v for_o alteration_n in_o order_n to_o unite_v protestant_n and_o strengthen_v the_o church_n be_v tool_n in_o the_o hand_n of_o papist_n or_o other_o politician_n to_o destroy_v it_o the_o church_n be_v in_o a_o lamentable_a condition_n and_o must_v necessary_o be_v destroy_v both_o by_o its_o friend_n and_o its_o enemy_n too_o and_o by_o those_o way_n which_o in_o all_o appearance_n tend_v most_o to_o preserve_v it_o and_o the_o design_n be_v lay_v so_o secret_o and_o to_o be_v wrought_v so_o strange_o that_o it_o be_v impossible_a to_o prevent_v it_o on_o the_o other_o side_n it_o be_v plain_a and_o notorious_a matter_n of_o fact_n that_o some_o great_a discontent_a layman_n though_o not_o so_o great_a as_o they_o will_v be_v do_v manage_v several_a of_o our_o stiff_a man_n against_o alteration_n it_o be_v not_o so_o much_o behind_o the_o curtain_n but_o the_o hand_n be_v see_v if_o not_o the_o wire_n which_o move_v the_o puppet_n beside_o the_o dissatisfied_a bishop_n and_o clergy_n who_o have_v not_o take_v the_o oath_n nor_o will_v own_o the_o present_a government_n have_v more_o influence_n upon_o those_o who_o have_v swear_v to_o the_o present_a king_n and_o queen_n and_o most_o solemn_o recognize_v they_o in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n than_o can_v be_v expect_v that_o man_n of_o such_o
p._n 11._o that_o as_o some_o may_v come_v in_o so_o other_o that_o be_v in_o our_o communion_n may_v take_v offence_n by_o the_o alteration_n and_o detest_v it_o and_o see_v our_o frequent_a change_n in_o some_o thing_n they_o may_v suppose_v that_o there_o be_v nothing_o certain_a among_o we_o and_o from_o the_o many_o dispute_n about_o our_o liturgy_n proceed_v to_o question_v our_o article_n and_o at_o last_o fall_v off_o to_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n which_o they_o see_v more_o constant_a to_o their_o principle_n now_o they_o must_v have_v a_o very_a mean_a opinion_n of_o the_o church_n prudence_n and_o give_v very_o little_a deference_n to_o her_o authority_n that_o shall_v be_v offend_v at_o she_o make_v such_o alteration_n in_o thing_n that_o she_o always_o declare_v be_v in_o their_o own_o nature_n indifferent_a and_o alterable_a and_o which_o she_o have_v reserve_v to_o herself_o a_o power_n to_o alter_v according_a to_o the_o exigency_n of_o time_n and_o occasion_n and_o upon_o such_o prudential_a reason_n as_o she_o shall_v think_v fit_a of_o which_o she_o be_v alone_o the_o most_o proper_a judge_n for_o as_o our_o author_n say_v the_o people_n ought_v not_o to_o prescribe_v to_o the_o church_n in_o such_o thing_n but_o the_o church_n to_o they_o they_o must_v therefore_o be_v no_o very_o dutiful_a and_o obedient_a son_n of_o the_o church_n who_o shall_v not_o be_v satisfy_v with_o such_o alteration_n as_o she_o shall_v think_v fit_a to_o make_v for_o the_o end_n of_o peace_n and_o concord_n and_o the_o allay_a those_o heat_n and_o division_n that_o be_v among_o we_o they_o must_v have_v a_o very_a wrong_n and_o superstitious_a opinion_n of_o the_o outward_a rite_n and_o ceremony_n and_o circumstantial_o of_o religion_n who_o lie_v so_o much_o weight_n and_o stress_n upon_o they_o as_o to_o think_v that_o there_o be_v any_o great_a matter_n in_o they_o beside_o their_o subserviency_n to_o outward_a order_n and_o decency_n or_o that_o they_o be_v so_o necessary_a to_o those_o that_o the_o divine_a worship_n may_v not_o be_v perform_v as_o acceptable_o and_o reverent_o without_o some_o of_o they_o as_o with_o they_o it_o be_v to_o be_v fear_v that_o such_o weak_a person_n have_v not_o be_v sufficient_o instruct_v in_o the_o nature_n of_o thing_n indifferent_a when_o they_o be_v so_o zealous_a for_o those_o above_o the_o weighty_a matter_n of_o peace_n and_o charity_n to_o which_o they_o ought_v always_o to_o give_v way_n if_o some_o zealous_a or_o design_v man_n have_v draw_v ignorant_a and_o well_o mean_v person_n into_o a_o great_a opinion_n and_o admiration_n of_o themselves_o by_o ceremonious_a formality_n and_o overdoing_n by_o unprescribe_v bowing_n and_o cringe_n by_o prostration_n at_o the_o eucharist_n and_o the_o like_a invention_n of_o their_o own_o they_o have_v use_v the_o same_o way_n that_o other_o fanatic_n have_v do_v to_o fill_v up_o their_o congregation_n with_o gather_v out_o of_o other_o church_n by_o show_n of_o great_a piety_n and_o devotion_n and_o have_v hereby_o break_v the_o settle_a order_n of_o the_o church_n and_o open_v a_o gap_n for_o all_o the_o folly_n of_o a_o indiscreet_a zeal_n and_o forward_a superstition_n whereby_o some_o pious_a but_o not_o wise_a man_n have_v in_o all_o age_n bring_v innumerable_a foppery_n and_o singularity_n into_o the_o church_n to_o the_o great_a mischief_n of_o religion_n but_o sure_o a_o church_n that_o think_v it_o not_o necessary_a to_o bring_v man_n to_o a_o religion_n by_o any_o such_o superstitious_a device_n but_o by_o more_o true_a and_o rational_a method_n of_o a_o sober_a and_o discreet_a piety_n and_o need_v not_o to_o make_v use_n of_o any_o such_o trick_n and_o pious_a fraud_n to_o impose_v upon_o the_o folly_n and_o weakness_n of_o its_o votary_n nor_o have_v any_o paltry_a and_o by_o end_n to_o be_v serve_v by_o such_o religious_a cheat_n shall_v put_v a_o timely_a stop_n to_o all_o such_o ceremonial_a excess_n and_o honest_o teach_v all_o its_o member_n that_o religion_n lie_v not_o in_o any_o such_o show_n or_o form_n of_o godliness_n but_o in_o sober_a and_o manly_a devotion_n and_o in_o a_o virtuous_a and_o good_a life_n now_o when_o man_n have_v such_o a_o true_a notion_n of_o religion_n which_o the_o church_n ought_v always_o to_o give_v they_o and_o to_o correct_v all_o mistake_n to_o the_o contrary_a there_o will_v be_v no_o great_a danger_n that_o they_o shall_v be_v much_o offend_v at_o the_o loss_n or_o alteration_n of_o a_o few_o rite_n or_o ceremony_n which_o be_v no_o more_o of_o the_o essence_n of_o religion_n than_o our_o clothes_n be_v of_o the_o essence_n of_o a_o man_n who_o so_o long_o as_o he_o be_v decent_o habit_v according_a to_o the_o custom_n of_o the_o country_n he_o may_v leave_v it_o to_o the_o governor_n thereof_o to_o change_v the_o mode_n as_o they_o think_v fit_a but_o above_o all_o folk_n commend_v i_o to_o those_o in_o our_o communion_n who_o our_o author_n tell_v we_o may_v take_v such_o offence_n at_o our_o alteration_n as_o to_o desert_n we_o and_o fall_v off_o to_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n 11._o p._n 11._o these_o do_v well_o understand_v and_o have_v be_v well_o instruct_v in_o the_o religion_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n who_o can_v make_v no_o difference_n between_o baptise_v with_o the_o cross_n as_o a_o signal_n of_o christianity_n and_o adore_v it_o as_o a_o object_n of_o worship_n between_o kneel_v at_o the_o sacrament_n and_o worship_v the_o host_n but_o however_o this_o be_v a_o terrible_a danger_n if_o by_o bring_v some_o oft_o from_o fanaticism_n we_o shall_v be_v likely_a to_o make_v other_o papist_n which_o be_v ten_o time_n worse_o let_v we_o therefore_o see_v what_o reason_n our_o author_n may_v have_v to_o fear_v this_o why_o see_v our_o frequent_a change_n in_o some_o thing_n they_o may_v suppose_v that_o there_o be_v nothing_o certain_a among_o we_o and_o from_o the_o many_o dispute_n about_o our_o liturgy_n proceed_v to_o question_v our_o article_n and_o at_o last_o fall_v off_o to_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n which_o they_o see_v more_o constant_a to_o their_o principle_n if_o they_o be_v for_o such_o a_o constant_a church_n as_o shall_v never_o make_v any_o alteration_n than_o indeed_o they_o must_v be_v for_o a_o infallible_a one_o and_o none_o bid_v at_o that_o but_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n but_o yet_o still_o she_o have_v make_v very_o often_o great_a change_n and_o alteration_n in_o her_o liturgy_n and_o ceremony_n and_o often_o correct_v and_o reform_v her_o breviaries_n and_o missal_n so_o that_o if_o this_o shall_v shake_v and_o startle_v a_o man_n and_o by_o see_v so_o many_o alteration_n about_o those_o thing_n in_o their_o church_n he_o shall_v suppose_v there_o be_v nothing_o more_o certain_a in_o that_o than_o in_o we_o i_o hope_v he_o will_v quick_o come_v back_o again_o like_o a_o fool_n as_o he_o go_v he_o must_v be_v a_o member_n of_o no_o church_n in_o the_o world_n nor_o ever_o can_v have_v be_v since_o the_o begin_n of_o christianity_n who_o will_v desert_n and_o leave_v it_o for_o this_o reason_n because_o it_o have_v make_v frequent_a alteration_n in_o its_o liturgy_n and_o ceremony_n and_o if_o a_o man_n will_v be_v so_o fickle_a and_o sceptical_a as_o by_o see_v frequent_a change_n in_o such_o thing_n to_o suppose_v there_o be_v nothing_o certain_a among_o we_o and_o from_o some_o dispute_n about_o liturgy_n question_v the_o article_n of_o a_o church_n and_o at_o last_o fall_n to_o what_o be_v more_o constant_a in_o its_o principle_n he_o must_v even_o fall_v off_o from_o all_o church_n and_o from_o all_o religion_n and_o for_o the_o same_o reason_n from_o all_o live_n under_o law_n and_o government_n for_o there_o be_v dispute_n and_o alteration_n about_o those_o and_o from_o eat_v and_o drink_v too_o for_o all_o man_n be_v not_o agree_v in_o the_o same_o meat_n and_o drink_n or_o way_n of_o dress_v it_o nor_o have_v always_o think_v fit_a to_o stick_v to_o one_o way_n of_o brew_v or_o cookery_n thus_o i_o have_v fair_o examine_v our_o author_n argument_n against_o make_v alteration_n and_o where_o there_o be_v any_o seem_a weight_n in_o they_o i_o have_v full_o consider_v it_o where_o they_o be_v weak_a and_o ridiculous_a i_o have_v make_v bold_a to_o expose_v they_o for_o the_o book_n be_v put_v out_o and_o fall_v into_o my_o hand_n in_o a_o time_n of_o merriment_n and_o i_o be_v very_o curious_a to_o see_v what_o some_o folk_n can_v say_v for_o themselves_o i_o assure_v he_o have_v he_o or_o his_o neighbour_n in_o the_o country_n show_v any_o good_a reason_n why_o they_o be_v so_o stiff_a against_o alteration_n that_o can_v have_v convince_v i_o that_o they_o be_v prejudicial_a to_o religion_n or_o disserviceable_a to_o the_o church_n i_o will_v have_v send_v
different_a apprehension_n and_o act_v by_o such_o different_a measure_n shall_v at_o this_o time_n have_v have_v i_o be_o very_o sorry_a for_o their_o suspension_n but_o it_o be_v strange_a they_o shall_v hereby_o have_v more_o authority_n over_o their_o clergy_n than_o they_o have_v before_o in_o a_o matter_n of_o great_a moment_n and_o great_a difficulty_n and_o it_o be_v equal_a wonder_n to_o i_o that_o some_o man_n who_o be_v so_o stiff_a in_o other_o thing_n shall_v so_o soon_o forget_v their_o promise_n and_o other_o hardly_o remember_v their_o oath_n that_o the_o king_n and_o parliament_n will_v be_v great_o displease_v with_o the_o clergy_n unless_o they_o consent_v to_o some_o alteration_n and_o abatement_n in_o order_n to_o a_o legal_a comprehension_n be_v as_o much_o to_o be_v fear_v as_o it_o be_v certain_o know_v that_o a_o convocation_n be_v first_o desire_v and_o then_o summon_v for_o this_o very_a purpose_n as_o appear_v by_o the_o address_n of_o the_o house_n of_o commons_o the_o king_n be_v write_v and_o commission_n and_o his_o letter_n to_o the_o convocation_n by_o which_o their_o mind_n be_v sufficient_o know_v and_o declare_v for_o the_o do_v the_o thing_n in_o general_n though_o they_o leave_v the_o particular_a manner_n of_o do_v it_o to_o the_o clergy_n themselves_o now_o the_o king_n and_o parliament_n be_v to_o be_v allow_v very_o proper_a judge_n of_o the_o expediency_n and_o fitness_n or_o prudential_a necessity_n of_o this_o and_o therefore_o of_o advise_v and_o direct_v it_o as_o the_o clergy_n be_v the_o fit_a to_o execute_v and_o accomplish_v it_o since_o it_o be_v a_o matter_n of_o a_o religious_a and_o ecclesiastical_a nature_n that_o belong_v proper_o to_o they_o now_o then_o for_o they_o to_o be_v call_v together_o for_o this_o very_a purpose_n by_o the_o desire_n of_o parliament_n and_o the_o command_n of_o the_o king_n and_o to_o tell_v they_o when_o they_o come_v that_o they_o think_v it_o not_o prudent_a but_o dangerous_a to_o meddle_v and_o do_v any_o thing_n be_v as_o if_o the_o precedent_n and_o college_n of_o physician_n shall_v advise_v that_o in_o such_o a_o case_n such_o a_o operation_n shall_v be_v perform_v and_o send_v for_o the_o surgeon_n of_o the_o hall_n to_o do_v it_o but_o they_o shall_v tell_v they_o there_o be_v no_o need_n of_o it_o and_o they_o will_v not_o meddle_v where_o though_o the_o latter_a be_v more_o fit_a to_o perform_v the_o chyrurgical_a operation_n yet_o the_o other_o be_v as_o good_a and_o proper_a judge_n that_o it_o be_v fit_a and_o expedient_a or_o necessary_a to_o be_v do_v but_o our_o author_n seem_v to_o deny_v that_o this_o will_v be_v please_v either_o to_o the_o king_n or_o parliament_n for_o four_o or_o five_o great_a and_o substantial_a reason_n 1._o as_o to_o the_o king_n his_o majesty_n have_v devolve_v that_o province_n to_o the_o convocation_n and_o parliament_n as_o if_o the_o king_n be_v not_o please_v with_o any_o thing_n but_o what_o he_o do_v himself_o and_o do_v not_o commit_v several_a thing_n to_o be_v do_v by_o other_o which_o be_v very_o please_v to_o he_o he_o have_v devolve_v the_o province_n of_o reduce_v ireland_n to_o shomberg_n and_o his_o army_n and_o yet_o no_o doubt_n but_o it_o will_v be_v very_o please_v to_o he_o and_o he_o as_o much_o expect_v and_o have_v give_v commission_n to_o do_v the_o one_o as_o well_o as_o the_o other_o and_o the_o happiness_n of_o his_o reign_n and_o the_o peace_n of_o his_o kingdom_n depend_v though_o not_o equal_o yet_o in_o great_a measure_n upon_o both_o the_o king_n devolve_v the_o province_n of_o raise_v money_n to_o the_o parliament_n and_o yet_o what_o be_v leave_v to_o they_o and_o their_o prudence_n to_o do_v be_v very_o necessary_a in_o itself_o and_o very_o please_v to_o the_o king_n 2._o he_o have_v declare_v his_o satisfaction_n as_o to_o the_o present_a constitution_n several_a of_o the_o clergy_n have_v declare_v they_o too_o if_o i_o be_v not_o mistake_v and_o something_o far_a than_o the_o king_n have_v do_v or_o can_v do_v unless_o he_o subscribe_v and_o take_v order_n and_o yet_o they_o will_v be_v mighty_o please_v with_o some_o alteration_n for_o the_o good_a as_o they_o think_v of_o the_o church_n and_o religion_n and_o the_o peace_n of_o the_o kingdom_n not_o because_o they_o be_v dissatisfy_v with_o the_o present_a constitution_n though_o they_o suppose_v some_o little_a thing_n in_o it_o may_v be_v alter_v and_o amend_v as_o our_o author_n i_o believe_v be_v not_o dissatisfy_v with_o his_o dear_a body_n and_o carcase_n but_o yet_o be_v willing_a now_o and_o then_o to_o amend_v and_o repair_v it_o for_o the_o better_a 3._o he_o do_v confirm_v his_o declare_a judgement_n by_o his_o constant_a practice_n in_o communicate_v with_o the_o church_n as_o establish_v and_o frequent_a promise_n to_o favour_n and_o protect_v it_o the_o more_o reason_n have_v the_o church_n to_o oblige_v and_o gratify_v he_o in_o what_o he_o desire_v and_o propose_v and_o thereby_o engage_v he_o to_o be_v its_o more_o firm_a and_o hearty_a friend_n as_o well_o as_o requite_v he_o for_o what_o he_o have_v already_o do_v for_o it_o 4._o as_o to_o the_o parliament_n they_o do_v general_o live_v in_o the_o communion_n of_o the_o church_n be_v live_v in_o the_o communion_n of_o the_o church_n than_o a_o certain_a argument_n of_o be_v against_o alteration_n sure_o our_o author_n live_v in_o a_o very_a gross_a air_n and_o his_o head_n want_v a_o little_a clear_n or_o he_o will_v not_o talk_v at_o this_o rate_n 5._o nothing_o can_v be_v obligatory_a but_o what_o shall_v be_v enact_v by_o they_o who_o consent_n we_o be_v not_o assure_v of_o i._n e._n by_o king_n and_o parliament_n be_v any_o thing_n ever_o obligatory_a as_o a_o law_n of_o the_o kingdom_n but_o what_o be_v so_o enact_v will_v he_o have_v the_o convocation_n stay_v till_o it_o be_v so_o obligatory_a and_o so_o enact_v by_o the_o civil_a power_n before_o they_o do_v any_o thing_n or_o can_v we_o ever_o be_v more_o assure_v of_o their_o consent_n to_o enact_v any_o thing_n than_o this_o i_o pass_v now_o to_o another_o reason_n for_o make_v these_o alteration_n and_o abatement_n in_o order_n to_o a_o comprehension_n and_o that_o be_v one_o of_o our_o own_o make_n it_o must_v be_v a_o great_a reproach_n to_o we_o to_o be_v against_o it_o at_o this_o time_n when_o we_o promise_v and_o declare_v for_o it_o in_o another_o i_o mean_v in_o the_o bishop_n petition_n to_o king_n james_n which_o be_v in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o whole_a church_n and_o clergy_n who_o make_v it_o their_o own_o by_o consent_v to_o it_o and_o approve_v it_o viz._n that_o they_o want_v not_o due_a tenderness_n to_o dissenter_n but_o be_v willing_a to_o come_v to_o such_o a_o temper_n as_o shall_v be_v think_v fit_a when_o the_o matter_n shall_v be_v consider_v in_o parliament_n and_o convocation_n what_o be_v the_o meaning_n of_o that_o be_v it_o to_o stand_v our_o ground_n and_o do_v nothing_o at_o all_o but_o be_v very_o stiff_a against_o all_o alteration_n for_o the_o sake_n of_o dissenter_n no_o sure_o that_o be_v not_o the_o tenderness_n nor_o the_o temper_n they_o be_v willing_a to_o come_v to_o but_o they_o must_v mean_v by_o it_o the_o very_a same_o thing_n that_o i_o be_o plead_v for_o and_o this_o our_o author_n own_v they_o do_v when_o he_o hearty_o wish_v those_o bishop_n be_v in_o a_o condition_n to_o perform_v their_o promise_n even_o for_o the_o dissenter_n sake_n 41._o sake_n p._n 41._o and_o he_o deny_v not_o what_o his_o adversary_n have_v say_v that_o he_o doubt_v not_o but_o they_o will_v agree_v to_o the_o alteration_n that_o be_v desire_v and_o he_o acquiesce_n in_o the_o judgement_n of_o another_o who_o he_o write_v against_o that_o if_o nothing_o unreasonable_a be_v design_v it_o may_v then_o have_v pass_v and_o a_o firm_a establishment_n ensue_v for_o doubtless_o the_o calm_a temper_n of_o those_o reverend_a father_n will_v mighty_o have_v influence_v their_o son_n 17._o son_n p._n 17._o some_o of_o the_o hot_a of_o which_o mighty_o want_v such_o a_o calm_a influence_n but_o now_o what_o become_v then_o of_o all_o their_o and_o our_o author_n be_v wise_a and_o important_a reason_n against_o make_v alteration_n as_o if_o the_o church_n be_v to_o be_v destroy_v thereby_o as_o if_o these_o concession_n be_v only_o lose_v of_o ground_n and_o gain_v nothing_o thereby_o since_o none_o will_v come_v in_o upon_o they_o but_o will_v rather_o be_v encourage_v to_o crave_v more_o and_o more_o till_o they_o have_v get_v all_o and_o will_v never_o be_v satisfy_v neither_o all_o these_o must_v be_v give_v up_o since_o they_o be_v all_o overrule_v by_o this_o promise_n and_o opinion_n of_o the_o bishop_n for_o sure_o they_o be_v not_o tool_n