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church_n communion_n schism_n separation_n 6,688 5 9.9679 5 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A30942 The disputation at Winchcomb November 9, 1653 together with the letters and testimonies pertinent thereto : wherein is offered some satisfaction in serveral points of religion. Barksdale, Clement, 1609-1687. 1654 (1654) Wing B794; ESTC R23641 73,761 196

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myself_o to_o wait_v on_o you_o either_o private_o or_o public_o but_o you_o know_v i_o think_v or_o may_v know_v that_o my_o intention_n be_v for_o a_o private_a meeting_n i_o be_o assure_v by_o some_o judicious_a friend_n that_o no_o scholastic_a order_n be_v to_o be_v hope_v for_o at_o your_o public_a meeting_n wherefore_o i_o may_v without_o any_o injury_n to_o my_o cause_n decline_v it_o be_v ready_a to_o answer_v either_o by_o word_n before_o some_o discreet_a witness_n or_o by_o writing_n as_o you_o shall_v please_v to_o propose_v your_o argument_n but_o pray_v let_v they_o be_v argument_n not_o ill_a word_n as_o libel_v idolatry_n murder_v and_o other_o the_o like_a elegancy_n of_o you_o in_o all_o way_n that_o become_v a_o ingenuous_a man_n and_o a_o christian_a i_o be_o your_o servant_n all-saints-day_n mr._n b_n reply_v to_o mr._n a._n p._n octob._n 31._o 53._o dear_o sir_n si_fw-mi judicas_fw-la cognosce_fw-la myself_o be_o best_o able_a to_o inform_v you_o both_o what_o 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conceive_v some_o have_v set_v up_o that_o to_o the_o disadvantage_n of_o other_o prayer_n or_o perhaps_o be_v a_o little_a superstitious_a in_o honour_v the_o former_a you_o will_v bend_v the_o stick_v the_o other_o way_n and_o by_o omit_v for_o a_o time_n the_o use_n of_o the_o word_n though_o you_o keep_v the_o matter_n still_o teach_v people_n to_o regard_v the_o sense_n as_o the_o only_a thing_n wherein_o you_o be_v not_o i_o think_v oppose_v by_o the_o other_o side_n who_o hold_v the_o prayer_n to_o have_v be_v use_v by_o christ_n appointment_n by_o the_o disciple_n and_o fit_a to_o be_v use_v by_o we_o how_o can_v this_o be_v deny_v yet_o do_v not_o deny_v but_o the_o word_n may_v lawful_o be_v omit_v and_o the_o sense_n keep_v and_o sure_o it_o be_v a_o very_a great_a restraint_n of_o devotion_n to_o confine_v it_o to_o any_o form_n whatsoever_o my_o particular_a necessity_n be_v not_o particular_o provide_v for_o by_o the_o form_n of_o any_o other_o which_o necessity_n yet_o 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etc._n the_o answer_v give_v to_o this_o letter_n be_v civil_a and_o so_o be_v the_o reply_n but_o neither_o be_v find_v only_a mr._n barksdale_n remember_v he_o send_v mr._n mede_n diatribae_fw-la with_o his_o next_o letter_n and_o commend_v some_o of_o the_o discourse_n to_o mr._n helme_n who_o answer_v that_o mr._n mede_n live_v in_o the_o time_n of_o the_o prelate_n and_o no_o wonder_n if_o he_o do_v serve_v that_o time_n wherein_o sure_o he_o mistake_v the_o genius_n of_o that_o excellent_a scholar_n who_o learning_n be_v accompany_v with_o equal_a integrity_n as_o the_o reader_n may_v find_v by_o his_o epistle_n and_o life_n since_o publish_v mr._n helm_n his_o conclusion_n then_o be_v that_o he_o will_v avoid_v controversy_n and_o preach_v christ_n unto_o the_o people_n and_o thus_o far_o all_o be_v fair_a between_o he_o and_o mr._n barksdale_n and_o so_o it_o continue_v till_o mr._n helme_n begin_v more_o and_o more_o to_o alienate_v himself_o from_o all_o neighbour_a minister_n except_o some_o few_o more_o suitable_a to_o his_o own_o mind_n with_o who_o alone_o he_o give_v out_o he_o will_v supply_v the_o lecture_n and_o according_o when_o another_o come_v to_o preach_v he_o deny_v he_o and_o take_v the_o pulpit_n himself_o and_o there_o deliver_v such_o thing_n which_o occasion_v another_o letter_n of_o mr._n barksdale_n to_o mr._n helme_n maii_n 26._o 52._o vincat_fw-la veritas_fw-la vivat_fw-la charitas_fw-la sir_n i_o much_o commend_v what_o you_o say_v well_o of_o brotherly_a union_n and_o love_n but_o can_v away_o with_o this_o new_a business_n of_o separation_n fraternal_a admonition_n also_o i_o much_o desire_n shall_v be_v more_o practise_v but_o suspension_n before_o admonition_n ay_o can_v allow_v of_o clear_o my_o opinion_n be_v notwithstanding_o all_o that_o i_o have_v hear_v from_o you_o and_o your_o brethren_n that_o minister_n be_v not_o to_o be_v condemn_v by_o you_o for_o administer_a the_o sacrament_n of_o the_o lord_n supper_n in_o their_o congregation_n though_o mix_v and_o for_o the_o proof_n here_o of_o i_o do_v humble_o tender_v unto_o you_o and_o you_o these_o follow_a reason_n which_o i_o shall_v be_v ready_a to_o enlarge_v and_o press_v more_o logical_o if_o it_o be_v desire_v 1._o because_o of_o christ_n precept_n do_v this_o in_o remembrance_n of_o i_o this_o remembrance_n shall_v be_v frequent_a and_o not_o delay_v from_o year_n to_o year_n on_o pretence_n of_o unpreparedness_n 2._o i_o argue_v from_o christ_n example_n as_o he_o wash_v the_o foot_n of_o judas_n among_o the_o rest_n so_o if_o you_o will_v hear_v the_o expositor_n ancient_a and_o recent_a of_o best_a account_n he_o admit_v judas_n to_o the_o sacrament_n though_o he_o well_o know_v his_o unworthiness_n and_o minister_n do_v not_o know_v the_o unworthiness_n of_o those_o they_o admit_v but_o hope_v the_o best_a upon_o their_o profession_n 3._o from_o the_o apostle_n word_n you_o show_v forth_o the_o lord_n death_n the_o lord_n death_n be_v show_v forth_o to_o the_o ear_n of_o the_o unworthy_a hearer_n why_o may_v it_o not_o to_o the_o eye_n also_o of_o the_o receiver_n though_o in_o the_o event_n he_o prove_v unworthy_a 4._o from_o those_o word_n of_o the_o apostle_n where_o he_o say_v the_o word_n be_v the_o savour_n of_o death_n to_o some_o yet_o the_o danger_n of_o that_o must_v not_o hinder_v minister_n from_o preach_v in_o mi●t_a congregation_n and_o therefore_o the_o danger_n of_o the_o unworthiness_n of_o some_o receiver_n must_v not_o hinder_v the_o administration_n of_o the_o sacrament_n 5._o i_o allege_v the_o example_n of_o the_o apostle_n who_o upon_o profession_n of_o faith_n baptise_a whole_a multitude_n and_o no_o doubt_n communicate_v with_o they_o although_o it_o appear_v after_o that_o they_o be_v not_o all_o right_a 6._o st._n paul_n direct_v his_o epistle_n to_o mix_a congregation_n call_v they_o all_o saint_n because_o of_o their_o holy_a call_n and_o profession_n and_o those_o that_o be_v saint_n in_o reputation_n may_v be_v admit_v 7._o in_o the_o church_n of_o corinth_n be_v many_o disorderly_a person_n beside_o the_o incestuous_a person_n that_o be_v admit_v and_o 1_o cor._n 11._o where_o he_o blame_v their_o come_n together_o for_o the_o worse_o he_o forbid_v they_o not_o to_o come_v together_o nor_o do_v he_o check_v the_o minister_n and_o forbid_v he_o to_o offer_v the_o sacrament_n but_o say_v he_o let_v a_o man_n examine_v himself_o and_o so_o neither_o do_v the_o unworthy_a eat_v damnation_n to_o the_o minister_n or_o any_o other_o but_o only_o to_o himself_o nor_o be_v the_o cup_n of_o blessing_n turn_v by_o the_o minister_n into_o a_o cup_n of_o poison_n god_n forbid_v such_o language_n of_o you_o but_o the_o unworthy_a receiver_n of_o the_o cup_n of_o blessing_n lose_v the_o blessing_n through_o his_o unworthiness_n 8._o as_o the_o word_n become_v the_o savour_n of_o death_n to_o the_o unworthy_a so_o be_v their_o prayer_n abomination_n yet_o you_o both_o receive_v they_o to_o the_o word_n and_o join_v with_o they_o in_o prayer_n and_o you_o sing_v psalm_n with_o they_o namely_o the_o 100_o psalm_n we_o be_v his_o flock_n he_o do_v we_o seed_n etc._n etc._n 9_o as_o the_o word_n be_v a_o quicken_a ordinance_n so_o the_o sacrament_n be_v a_o quicken_a ordinance_n for_o it_o be_v always_o accompany_v with_o the_o word_n nay_o without_o the_o word_n it_o be_v no_o sacrament_n if_o the_o word_n without_o the_o sacrament_n may_v quicken_v those_o that_o be_v dead_a much_o more_o may_v the_o word_n with_o the_o sacrament_n christ_n be_v the_o bread_n of_o life_n both_o to_o give_v life_n and_o to_o maintain_v life_n 10._o you_o do_v i_o suppose_v admit_v child_n of_o all_o christian_a parent_n upon_o their_o desire_n and_o profession_n to_o the_o one_o sacrament_n why_o do_v you_o not_o admit_v the_o parent_n themselves_o likewise_o to_o thè_z other_o 11._o you_o have_v no_o power_n to_o receive_v accusation_n and_o proof_n of_o witness_n without_o which_o you_o can_v give_v sentence_n and_o will_v you_o condemn_v and_o suspend_v or_o excommunicate_v before_o you_o have_v try_v or_o upon_o hear-say_n quis_fw-la erit_fw-la innocens_fw-la 12._o you_o say_v you_o make_v a_o separation_n in_o the_o church_n not_o from_o the_o church_n as_o if_o it_o be_v lawful_a to_o make_v a_o separation_n in_o the_o church_n a_o separation_n in_o the_o church_n be_v a_o rent_n of_o the_o church_n be_v offensive_a and_o sadden_v the_o heart_n of_o many_o pious_a discreet_a and_o charitable_a person_n that_o however_o they_o like_v you_o otherwise_o can_v join_v with_o you_o in_o your_o by-way_n 13._o we_o must_v not_o deny_v the_o worthy_a and_o keep_v from_o they_o the_o mean_n and_o pledge_n of_o grace_n because_o of_o the_o unworthiness_n of_o some_o 14._o as_o we_o offer_v the_o covenant_n to_o all_o so_o must_v we_o offer_v the_o seal_n
prove_v our_o people_n be_v the_o uncircumcised_a in_o heart_n and_o go_v astray_o after_o idol_n 3._o it_o be_v no_o guilt_n at_o all_o to_o see_v man_n make_v a_o solemn_a memorial_n of_o christ_n death_n and_o praise_v he_o &_o promise_v to_o obey_v he_o better_o than_o they_o have_v do_v hag._n 2._o 3._o be_v sure_o mistake_v by_o you_o 1_o cor_fw-la 5._o 6._o just_o condemn_v the_o countenancer_n of_o the_o incestuous_a person_n and_o be_v not_o pertinent_a to_o they_o that_o make_v a_o open_a detestation_n of_o all_o sin_n 1_o cor._n 5._o 11._o require_v that_o christian_n which_o be_v fornicator_n drunkard_n etc._n etc._n be_v avoid_v and_o not_o eat_v with_o which_o be_v clear_o speak_v and_o interpret_v by_o all_o the_o learned_a interpreter_n i_o believe_v of_o abstain_v from_o familiar_a converse_n yet_o no_o man_n deny_v but_o such_o be_v to_o be_v exclude_v also_o from_o the_o holy_a table_n but_o this_o must_v be_v do_v judicial_o there_o be_v not_o want_v diligentia_fw-la debita_fw-la in_o the_o minister_n when_o he_o give_v instruction_n and_o admonition_n and_o admit_v none_o who_o he_o know_v or_o be_v inform_v of_o to_o be_v in_o that_o black_a roll_v the_o discipline_n authoritative_a in_o the_o place_n cite_v matth._n 18._o and_o 1_o cor._n 5._o be_v conceive_v to_o belong_v to_o other_o overseer_n †_o than_o you_o or_o i._o your_o comparison_n prove_v nothing_o nor_o be_v the_o case_n alike_o we_o give_v that_o which_o be_v good_a to_o those_o who_o we_o in_o charity_n suppose_v to_o be_v well_o affect_v †_o see_v the_o author_n of_o bind_v and_o lose_v 4._o if_o there_o have_v be_v only_a prayer_n and_o not_o war_n for_o reformation_n many_o think_v it_o have_v be_v the_o more_o christian_a way_n but_o sir_n be_v not_o the_o reformation_n fight_v for_o a_o long_a time_n presbyterian_a that_o be_v not_o you_o nor_o be_v you_o establish_v i_o persuade_v all_o to_o light_n and_o purity_n 5._o i_o assist_v the_o true_a reformation_n in_o preach_v piety_n and_o charity_n and_o admit_v such_o to_o communion_n who_o vow_v holy_a vow_n and_o i_o think_v they_o be_v of_o the_o best_a sort_n my_o cure_n at_o hawl_n and_o sude_o be_v not_o comparable_a to_o your_o large_a diocese_n and_o for_o gather_v a_o church_n true_o i_o be_o ready_a to_o serve_v all_o my_o christian_a friend_n that_o upon_o the_o liberty_n grant_v under_o this_o government_n will_v make_v use_n of_o my_o ministry_n 6._o for_o matter_n and_o form_n our_o congregation_n i_o trust_v in_o god_n mercy_n shall_v not_o be_v ashamed_a to_o look_v upon_o you_o and_o we_o endeavour_v to_o be_v above_o you_o in_o our_o humility_n at_o least_o and_o charity_n and_o if_o you_o will_v inform_v against_o any_o member_n and_o prove_v the_o accusation_n he_o shall_v feel_v our_o discipline_n but_o i_o perceive_v by_o what_o you_o add_v you_o be_v misinform_v and_o so_o may_v i_o be_v god_n send_v we_o more_o of_o the_o gospell-spirit_n c._n b._n june_n 8._o a_o addition_n to_o your_o rule_n where_o no_o excommunion_n no_o communion_n i_o answer_v that_o the_o power_n of_o excommunion_n be_v in_o the_o governor_n of_o the_o church_n and_o i_o conceive_v belong_v not_o unto_o particular_a congregation_n for_o before_o judgement_n give_v there_o must_v be_v a_o trial_n by_o examination_n of_o witness_n etc._n etc._n do_v you_o keep_v such_o a_o court_n in_o your_o church_n pray_v show_v i_o the_o commission_n for_o it_o now_o if_o the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n be_v hinder_v or_o exclude_v the_o blame_n must_v light_v upon_o the_o enemy_n thereof_o and_o particular_a congregation_n must_v enjoy_v the_o ordinance_n as_o well_o as_o they_o can_v beside_o by_o your_o rule_n all_o the_o congregation_n of_o england_n in_o former_a time_n have_v no_o right_n to_o communion_n because_o they_o own_v no_o power_n of_o excommunion_n only_o they_o can_v present_v fault_n and_o so_o must_v leave_v they_o to_o the_o cognizance_n of_o their_o superior_n as_o for_o 1_o cor._n 5._o you_o must_v not_o look_v upon_o corinth_n as_o a_o single_a congregation_n but_o as_o a_o episcopal_a see_v according_a to_o some_o according_a to_o other_o as_o govern_v by_o a_o consistory_n of_o presbyter_n see_v the_o expositor_n calvin_n in_o 1_o cor._n 5._o 4._o congregatis_fw-la vobis_fw-la erat_fw-la in_o veteri_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la ordinatum_fw-la presbyterium_fw-la hoc_fw-la est_fw-la collegium_fw-la seniorum_fw-la cujus_fw-la omnium_fw-la consensu_fw-la prima_fw-la erat_fw-la cognitio_fw-la inde_fw-la res_fw-la ad_fw-la populum_fw-la sed_fw-la jam_fw-la praejudicata_fw-la deferebatur_fw-la 11._o cum_fw-la tali_fw-la nec_fw-la cibum_fw-la quidem_fw-la sumat_fw-la be_v per_n cibi_fw-la communicationem_fw-la intelligitur_fw-la vel_fw-la contubernium_fw-la vel_fw-la interior_a convictus_fw-la nihil_fw-la enim_fw-la prohibet_fw-la quo_fw-la minus_fw-la si_fw-la in_o diversorium_fw-la ingressus_fw-la videam_fw-la excommunicatum_fw-la quempiam_fw-la assidere_fw-la simul_fw-la cum_fw-la eo_fw-la prandeam_fw-la neque_fw-la enim_fw-la ejus_fw-la excludendi_fw-la mihi_fw-la est_fw-la potestas_fw-la c._n 11._o 28._o probet_fw-la autem_fw-la seipsum_fw-la homo_fw-la neque_fw-la vero_fw-la perfecta_fw-la aut_fw-la fides_fw-la aut_fw-la poenitentia_fw-la requiritur_fw-la sicuti_fw-la quidam_fw-la perfectionem_fw-la quae_fw-la nusquam_fw-la inveniri_fw-la potest_fw-la nimium_fw-la urgendo_fw-la universos_fw-la mortales_fw-la in_o perpetuum_fw-la à_fw-la coena_fw-la arcent_fw-la fide_fw-la setiam_fw-la inchoata_fw-la ex_fw-la indignis_fw-la facit_fw-la dignos_fw-la 29._o qui_fw-la ederit_fw-la indignè_fw-la offerri_fw-la illis_fw-la corpus_fw-la licet_fw-la ejus_fw-la participatione_fw-la sva_fw-la eos_fw-la indignitas_fw-la privet_fw-la 34._o caetera_fw-la qu●m_fw-la venero_fw-la disponam_fw-la de_fw-fr externo_fw-la decore_fw-la loquor_fw-la quod_fw-la ut_fw-la in_o libertate_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la positum_fw-la est_fw-la ita_fw-la pro_fw-la temporum_fw-la locorum_fw-la hominum_fw-la conditione_n constitui_fw-la debet_fw-la c._n 13._o 7._o charitas_fw-la omne_fw-la fert_fw-la omne_fw-la credit_n simplicitatem_fw-la &_o humanitatem_fw-la in_o judicando_fw-la hic_fw-la requirit_fw-la &_o asserit_fw-la esse_fw-la perpetuas_fw-la charitatis_fw-la comites_fw-la ita_fw-la fiet_fw-la ut_fw-la homo_fw-la christianus_n falli_fw-la sva_fw-la benignitate_fw-la ac_fw-la facilitate_v satius_fw-la esse_fw-la ducat_n quam_fw-la sinistra_fw-la suspicion_n fratrem_fw-la gravare_fw-la idem_fw-la in_o ep._n ad_fw-la philip_n c._n 2._o v._n 3._o nihil_fw-la per_fw-la contentionem_fw-la excitatur_fw-la contentio_fw-la dum_fw-la svam_fw-la cuique_fw-la sententiam_fw-la pertinaciter_fw-la vult_fw-la tueri_fw-la inanis_fw-la autem_fw-la gloria_fw-la animos_fw-la titillat_n ut_fw-la unicuique_fw-la blandiantur_fw-la sva_fw-la inuenta_fw-la sed_fw-la per_fw-la humilitatem_fw-la exit_fw-la stultâ_fw-la nostri_fw-la admiratione_n nascitur_fw-la fratrum_fw-la contemptus_fw-la si_fw-mi quid_fw-la novisti_fw-la rectius_fw-la reader_n i_o shall_v here_o take_v leave_n to_o impart_v unto_o thou_o another_o paper_n write_v as_o i_o think_v about_o this_o time_n when_o mr._n b._n grieve_v at_o the_o virulence_n of_o the_o adversary_n and_o study_v to_o deprive_v he_o of_o all_o occasion_n of_o evil-speaking_a set_v down_o and_o present_v to_o some_o worthy_a friend_n this_o model_n for_o the_o congregation_n at_o sudeley_n 1_o the_o rector_n be_v a_o presbyter_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n and_o have_v some_o discreet_a man_n of_o the_o congregation_n for_o his_o assistant_n to_o advise_v with_o and_o to_o use_v as_o occasion_n shall_v require_v 2._o on_o the_o lord_n day_n he_o preach_v once_o or_o twice_o and_o also_o the_o church-catechism_n be_v repeat_v at_o certain_a time_n by_o the_o young_a sort_n 3._o on_o saturday_n in_o the_o afternoon_n or_o at_o another_o convenient_a time_n he_o explane_v some_o 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with_o curse_v and_o swear_v all_o the_o rest_n forsake_v he_o and_o flee_v their_o strength_n be_v little_a and_o their_o knowledge_n be_v less_o witness_v the_o disciple_n go_v to_o emaus_n fool_n and_o slow_a of_o heart_n and_o the_o question_n propose_v about_o the_o kingdom_n act_v 1_o what_o be_v the_o low_a measure_n of_o grace_n i_o will_v not_o determine_v where_o i_o see_v any_o hope_n or_o weak_a beginning_n of_o christianity_n i_o embrace_v and_o cherish_v they_o in_o the_o school_n of_o christ_n there_o be_v many_o little_a one_o that_o must_v be_v gentle_o use_v and_o there_o be_v some_o great_a one_o that_o must_v not_o be_v offend_v but_o upon_o great_a reason_n why_o shall_v i_o not_o think_v better_o of_o other_o than_o myself_o when_o the_o b._n apostle_n call_v himself_o the_o chief_a of_o sinner_n and_o less_o than_o the_o least_o of_o saint_n he_o that_o have_v beam_n to_o cast_v out_o of_o his_o own_o eve_n must_v not_o be_v pick_v mote_n out_o of_o his_o 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the_o apostolical_a bishop_n or_o if_o you_o like_v the_o latin_a word_n better_o the_o precedent_n or_o superintendent_n for_o who_o i_o have_v speak_v before_o and_o i_o be_o ready_a to_o join_v with_o you_o in_o a_o petition_n that_o we_o may_v have_v a_o apostolical_a bishop_n set_v over_o we_o as_o it_o be_v in_o practice_n of_o the_o ancient_a church_n h._n you_o stand_v too_o much_o upon_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o ancient_a church_n come_v to_o the_o scripture_n b._n i_o be_o sorry_a you_o value_v the_o practice_n of_o the_o ancient_a church_n so_o little_a pray_v where_o be_v your_o main_a strength_n in_o scripture_n for_o your_o independent_a or_o congregationall_a church_n h._n let_v we_o read_v the_o famous_a text_n mat_n 18_o 15_o 16_o 17_o 18_o 19_o 20._o out_o of_o which_o text_n i_o frame_v this_o argument_n if_o here_o be_v mean_v by_o the_o church_n a_o congregation_n from_o which_o lie_v no_o appeal_v then_o be_v the_o independent_a church_n found_v upon_o this_o 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but_o you_o have_v not_o clear_v it_o yet_o i_o can_v yield_v to_o your_o sense_n for_o this_o reason_n that_o sense_n of_o scripture_n concern_v church-government_n which_o be_v never_o receive_v by_o the_o doctor_n of_o the_o ancient_a church_n be_v not_o the_o true_a sense_n of_o scripture_n but_o your_o sense_n of_o the_o place_n be_v never_o receive_v etc._n etc._n h._n still_o still_o he_o decline_v scripture_n and_o will_v lead_v we_o to_o human_a ordinance_n b._n as_o for_o human_a ordinance_n i_o can_v embrace_v they_o so_o far_o as_o they_o be_v not_o opposite_a to_o scripture_n but_o now_o we_o be_v upon_o the_o interpretation_n of_o scripture_n i_o must_v profess_v i_o have_v be_v ever_o breed_v in_o the_o church_n that_o require_v all_o her_o minister_n to_o receive_v the_o scripture_n as_o interpret_v by_o the_o ancient_a father_n and_o to_o propose_v nothing_o to_o the_o people_n contrary_a to_o what_o be_v derive_v out_o of_o the_o scripture_n by_o they_o i_o be_o not_o 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