place to the Corinthians is not the only place wherein there is in the Scripture any mention of schisme in an ecclesiasticall sense or that the Church of Corinth was not a particular church is any thing of importance offerd to impaire the assertion that the evill reproved was within the verge of that church and without separation from it and do I need any more to make good to the utmost that which I have asserted but of these things afterwards In all that followes to the end of this chapter I meet with nothing of importance that deserves farther notice that which is spoken is for the most part built upon mistakes as that when I speak of a member or the members of one particular church I intend onely one single congregation exclusively to any other acceptation of that expression in reference to the apprehension of others that I denie the reformed Churches to be true churches because I denie the Church of Rome to be so and denie the institution of a nationall church which yet our Author pleads not for He would have it for granted that because Schisme consists in a difference among church members therefore he that raises such a difference whither he be a member of that church wherein the difference is raised or of any other or no suppose he be a Mahumetan or a Jew is a Schismatick pleads for the old definition of Schisme as suitable to the Scripture after the whole foundation of it is taken away wrests many of my expressions as that in particular in not making the matter of Schisme to be things relating to the worship of God to needlesse discourses about Doctrine and Discipline not apprehending what I intended by that expression of the worship of God and I suppose it not advisable to follow him in such extravagancies The usuall aggravations of Schisme he thought good to reinforce whither he hoped that I would dispute with him about them I cannot tell I shall now assure him that I will not though if I may have his good leave to say so I lay much more weight on those insisted on by my selfe wherein I am encouraged by his approbation of them CHAP. 5. THe third Chapter of my Treatise consisting in the preventing and removing such objections as the precedent discourse might seem lyable and obnoxious unto is proposed to examination by our Reverend Author in the third Chap. of his Booke and the objections mentioned undertaken to be managed by him with what successe some few considerations will evince The first Objection by me proposed was taken from the Common Apprehension of the nature of Schisme and the issue of stateing it as by me layd down namely hence it would follow that the separation of any man or men from a true Church or of one Church from others is not Schisme But now waving for the present the more large consideration of the name thing which yet in the processe of my discourse I do condescend upon according to the principle layd down I say that in the precise signification of the word and description of the thing as given by the holy Ghost this is true no such separation is in the scripture so called or so accounted whither it may not in a large sence be esteemed as such I do not dispute yea I afterwards grant it so farre as to make that concession the bottome and foundation of my whole plea for the vindication of the reformed churches from that crime Our Reverend Author reinforces the objection by sundry instances As 1. that he hath disproved that sence or precise signisication of the word in Scripture how well let the Reader judge 2. That supposing that to be the onely sence mentioned in that case of the Corinthians yet may another sence be intimated in Scripture and deduced by regular and rationall consequence Perhaps this will not be so easy an undertaking this being the onely place where the name is mentioned or thing spoken of in an Ecclesiasticall sence but when any proofe is tendred of what is here affirmed we shall attend unto it It is said indeed that if separation in Judgment in a Church be a Schisme much more to separate from a Church but our question is about the precise notion of the word in Scripture and consequences from thence not about consequents from the nature of things concerning which if our Author had been pleased to have staid a while he would have found me granting as much as he could well desire 3. 1 John 2. 19. is sacrificed {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} and interpreted of Schisme Where to make one venture in imitation of our Author All Orthodox Interpreters and writers of controversies expound it of Apostacy neither will the context or arguing of the Apostle admit of another exposition mens wresting of Scripture to give countenance to inveterate errours is one of their worst concomitants so then that seperation from Churches is oftentimes evill is readily granted of what nature that evill is with what are the aggravations of it a judgment is to be made from the pleas and pretences that its circumstances afford so farr as it proceeds from such dissensions as before were mentioned so far it proceeds from schisme but in its own nature absolutely considered it is not so To render my former assertions the more unquestionably evident I consider the severall accounts given of mens blameable departures ' from any Church or Churches mentioned in Scripture and manifest that none of them come under the head of Schisme Apostasy irregularly of walking and professed sensuality are the heads whereunto all blameable departures from the Churches in the Scripture are referred That there are other accounts of this crime our Author doth not assert he onely saies that all or some of the places I produce as instances of a blameable separation from a Church do mind the nature of Schisme as precedaneous to the separation What ere the matter is I do not find him speaking so faintly and with so much caution through his whole discourse as in this place all or some do it they mind the nature of Schisme they mind it as precedaneous to the separation so the summe of what he aims at in contesting about the exposition of those places of Scripture is this some of them do mind I know not how the nature of Schisme which he never once named as precedaneous to separation therefore the precise notion of Schisme in the Scripture doth not denote differences and divisions in a Church only Quod erat demonstrandum That I should spend time in debating a consideration so remote from the state of the controversie in hand I am sure will not be expected by such as understand it Pag. 77. Of my treatise I affirm that for a man to withdraw or withold himselfe from the communion externall and visible of any Church or Churches on that pretention or plea be it true or otherwise that the worship doctrine or
of church members of the right of the members of the Catholick church to all ordinances of the miscarriage of the Independents of church Matriculations and such like things not once considered by me in my proposall of the matter in hand are fallen upon By the way he fals upon my judgment about the inhabitation of the Spirit calls it an error and saies so it hath been reputed by all that are orthodox raising terrible suspitions and intimations of judgments on our way from God by my falling into that error when yet I say no more then the Scripture saith in expresse tearms forty times for which I referre him to what I have written on that subject wherein I have also the concurrence of Polanus Bucanus Dorchetus with sundry others Lutherans and Calvinists It may be when he hath seriously weighed what I have offered to the clearing of that glorious truth of the Gospell he may entertain more gentle thoughts both concerning it and mee The rest of the chapter I have passed thorow once and againe and cannot fix on any thing worthy of farther debate A difference is attempted to be found in my description of the union of a particular Church in this and another place because in one place I require the consent of the members to walke together in another mention only their so doing when the mention of that only was necessary in that place not speaking of it absolutely but as it is the difference of such a church from the church Catholick some impropriety of expression is pretended to be discovered id populus curat scilicet which yet is a pure mistake of his not considering unto what especiall end and purpose the words are used He repeats sundry things as in opposition to me that are things laid down by my selfe and granted Doth he attempt to prove that the union of a Church is not rightly stated he confesseth the form of such a Church consists in the obscrvance and performance of the same ordinances of worship numerically I aske is it the command of Christ that believers should so doe is not their obedience to that command their consent so to do are not particular churches instituted of Christ is it not the duty of every believer to join himselfe to some one of them was not this acknowledged above can any one do so without his consenting to do so is this consent any thing but his voluntary submission to the ordinances of worship therein As an expresse consent and subjection to Christ in generall is required to constitute a man a member of the Church Catholick visible so if the Lord Jesus hath appointed any particular church for the celebration of his ordinances is not their consent who are to walke in them necessary thereunto But the Topick of an explicite covenant presenting its selfe with an advantage to take up some leaves would not be waved though nothing at all to the purpose in hand After this my confession made in as much condescension unto compliance as I could well imagine of the use of greater assēblies is examined and excepted against as being in my esteem he saith though it be not so indeed a matter of prudence only But I know full well that he knows not what esteeme or disesteem I have of sundry things of no lesse importance The consideration of my postulata proposed in a preparation to what was to be insisted on in the next Chapter as influenced from the foregoing dissertations alone remaines and indeed alone deserve our notice My first is this The departing of any man or men from any particular Church as to the communion peculiar to such a Church is no where called Schisme nor is so in the nature of the thing it selfe but is a thing to be judged and recieve a title according to the circumstances of it to this he adjoines this is not the Question a simple secessiō of a man or mē upon some just occasion is not called schisme but to make causless differences in a Church and then separating from it as no Church denying communion with it hath the nature and name of schisme in all mens judgments but his own An. What Question doth our Reverend Author meane I feare he is still fancying of the difference between Presbyterians and Independents and squaring all things by that Imagination whether it be a Question stated to his mind or no I cannot tell but it is an assertion expressive of mine owne which he may do well to disprove if he can Who told him that raising causlesse differences in a Church and then separating from it is not in my judgment schisme May I possibly retaine hopes of making my selfe understood by this Reverend Author I suppose though that a pertinacious abiding in a mistake is neither schisme nor heresy And so this may be passed over My second is one Church refusing to hold that communion with another which ought to be between them is not Schisme properly so called The reply hereunto is twofold 1. That one Church may raise differences in and with another church and so cause Schisme 2 That the Independents deny any communion of churches but what is prudentiall and so that communion cannot be broken To the first I have spoken sufficiently before the latter is but an harping on the same string I am not speaking of Independent churches nor upon the principles of Independents much lesse on them which are imposed on them Let the Reverend Author suppose or aver what communion of churches he pleaseth my position holds in reference to it nor can he disprove it however for my part I am not acquaintcd with those Independents who allow no communion of churches but what is prudentiall and yet it is thought that I know as many as this Reverend Author doth Upon the last proposall we are wholly agreed so that I shall not need to repeat it only he gives me a sad farewell at the close of the Chapter which must be taken notice of is saith he not the design of his book to prove if he could and condemne us as no churches let the world be judge and I say let all the saints of God judge and Jesus Christ will judge whither I have not outragious injury done me in this imputation but saith he unless this be proved he can never justify his separatiō Sr. when your our brethren told the Bishops they thanked God they were none of them and defied the Prelaticall church did they make a separation or no were they guilty of Schisme I suppose you will not say so nor do I yet have I done any such thing in reference to you or your churches I have no more separated from you then you have done from me and as for the distance which is between us upon our disagreement about the way of reformation let all the churches of God judge on which side it hath been managed with more breach of love on yours or mine Let me assure you Sir through
from one end of it to the other and called partly in down right termes partly by oblique intimations whose reflections are not to be waved Sathan Atheist Sceptick Donatist Heretick Schismaticke Sectarie Pharisee c. and the closure of the Book is merely an attempt to blast my reputation whereof I shall give a speedy account 2. The professed designe of the whole is to prove Independency as he is pleased to call it which what it is he declares not nor as he mannages the businesse do I know to be a great Schisme and that Independents by whom it is full well knowne whom he intends are Schismaticks Sectaries the troublers of England So that it were happy for the Nation if they were out of it or discovering sanguinary thoughts in reference unto them and these kinds of discourses fill up the booke almost from one end to the other 3. No Christian care doth seeme to have been taken nor good conscience exercised from the beginning to the ending as to imputation of any thing unto me or upon mee that may serve to help on the designe in hand Hence I think it is repeated neare an hundred times that I deny their Ministers to be Ministers their Churches to be Churches that I deny all the reformed Churches in the world but onely our owne as he calls them to be true Churches all which is notoriously untrue contrary to my knowne judgement professedly declared on all occasions contrary to expresse affirmations in the booke he undertakes to confute and the whole designe of the booke its selfe I cannot easily declare my surprizall on this account What am I to expect from others when such Reverend men as this Author shall by the power of prejudice be carried beyond all bounds of moderation and Christian tendernesse in offending I no way doubt but that Sathan hath his designe in this whole businesse He knowes how apt we are to fixe on such provocations and to contribute thereupon to the increase of our differences Can he according to the course of things in the world expect any other issue but that in the necessary defensative I am put upon I should not wave such reflexions and retortions on him and them with whom I have to do as present themselves with as faire pleas and pretences unto me as it is possible for me to judge that the charges before mentioned I meane of Schisme Heresie and the like did unto him For as to a returne of any thing in its owne nature false and untrue as to matter of fact to meet with that of the like kind wherewith I am entertained I suppose the Divell himselfe was hopelesse to obtaine it Is he not filled with envie to take notice in what love without dissimulation I walk with many of the Presbyterian judgment What Christian entercourse and communion I have with them in England Scotland Holland France fearing that it may tend to the furtherance of peace union among the Churches of Christ God assisting I shall deceive his expectations and though I be called Schismatick and Heretick a thousand times it shall not weaken my love or esteeme of or towards any of the godly Ministers or people of that way and judgment with whom I am acquainted or have occasion of converse And for this Reverend Author himself I shall not faile to pray that none of the things whereby he hath I feare administred advantage unto Satan to attempt the exasperations of the spirits of Brethren one against another may ever be laid to his charge For my owne part I professe in all sincerity that such was my unhappinesse or rather happinesse in the constant converse which in sundry places I have with Persons of the Presbyterian judgment both of the English and Scottish Nation utterly of another frame of spirit then that which is now shewed that untill I saw this treatise I did not believe that there had remained in any one godly sober judicious person in England such thoughts of heart in reference to our present differences as are visible and legible therein Tantaené animis coelestibus irae I hope the Reverend Author will not be offended if I make bold to tell him that it will be no joy of heart to him one day that he hath taken paines to cast oyle on those flames which it is every ones duty to labour to extinguish But that the whole matter in difference may be the better stated and determined I shall first passe through with the generall concernments of the book it selfe and then consider the severall Chapters of it as to any particulars in them that may seem to relate to the businesse in hand It may possibly not a little conduce towards the removall of those obstructions unto peace and love laid in our way by this Reverend Author and to a clearer stating of the controversie pretended to be ventilated in his discourse to discover and lay aside those mistakes of his which being interwoven with the main discourse from the beginning to the end seeme as principles to animate the whole and to give it that life of trouble whereof it is partaker Some of them were as absolutely considered remarked before I shall now renew the mention of them with respect to that influence which they have into the Argumentative part of the Treatise under consideration 1. First then it is strenuously supposed all along that I deny all or any Churches in England to be true Churches of Christ except only the Churches gathered in the Congregationall way and upon their principles then that I deny all the reformed Churches beyond the Seas to be true Churches of Christ This supposition being laid as the foundation of the whole building a confutation of my treatise is fixed thereon a comparison is instituted betweene the Donatists and my selfe Arguments are produced to prove their Churches to be true Churches and their Ministers true Ministers The charge of Schisme on this bottome is freely given out and asserted the proofe of my Schismaticall separation from hence deduced and many termes of reproach are returned as a suitable reply to the provocation of this opinion How great a portion of a small treatise may easily be taken up with discourses relating to these heads is easie to apprehend Now lest all this paines should be found to be uselesse and causlesly undergone let us consider how the Reverend Author proves this to be my judgment Doth he evince it from any thing deliver'd in that treatise he undertakes to confute doth he produce any other testimonies out of what I have spoken deliver'd or written else where and on other occasions to make it good This I suppose he thought not of but took it for granted that either I was of that judgment or it was fit I should be so that the difference between us might be as great as he desired to have it appeare to be Well to put an end to this controversie seeing he would not believe what I told the
he will yet proceed and Sec. 13. informe his Reader that in that Treatise I aver that two things are required in a teacher as to formall ministeriall teaching 1. Gifts from God 2 Authority frō the Church well what then I am of the same mind still but now I cry down ordination by Presbytery what is not this a great alteration and signe of inconstancy Truly Sir there is more need of humiliation in your selfe then triumphing against me for the assertion is most untrue and your charge altogether groundlesse which I desire you would be satisfied in and not to be led any more by evill surmises to wrong mee and your owne soule He addes sect. 14. two cautions which in that treatise I give to private Christians in the exercise of their gifts and closeth the last of them with a Juvenile Epiphonema divinely spoken and like a true Presbyterian and yet there is not one word in either of these cautions that I do not still own and allow which confirmes the unhappinesse of the charge Of all that is substantiall in any thing that followes I affirme the same as to all that which is gone before Onely as to the liberty to be allowed unto them which meet in private who cannot in conscience joyne in the Celebration of publike ordinances as they are performed amongst us I confesse my selfe to be otherwise minded at present than the words there quoted by this Author do expresse But this is nothing to the difference between Presbytery and independency and he that can glory that in 14. yeares he hath not altered or improved in his conception of some things of no greater importance then that mentioned shall not have me for his rivall And this is the summe of M◠C. Appendix the discourse whereof being carried on with such a temper of spirit as it is and suited to the advantage aimed at by so many evill surmises false suggestions and uncharitable reflections I am perswaded the taking of that paines will one day be no joy of heart unto him CHAP. 3. A Review of the chargers Preface HIs first chapter consists for the most part in a repetition of my words or so much of the discourse of my first Chapter as he could wrest by cutting off one and another parcell of it from its coherence in the whole with the interposure of glosses of his own to serve him to make biting reflexions upōthem with whom he hath to deale How unbecoming such a course of procedure is for a person of his worth gravity and profession perhaps his {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} have by this time convinced him If men have a mind to perpetuate controversies unto an endlesse fruitlesse reciprocation of words and cavils if to provoke to easie and facile retorsions if to heighten and aggravate differences beyond any hope of reconciliation they may do wel to deale after this manner with the writings of one another Mr. C. knowes how easie it were to make his owne words dresse him up in all those ornaments wherein he labours to make me appeare in the world by such glosses inversions additions and interpositions as he is pleased to make use of but meliora speramus Some particulars that seem to be of any importance to our businesse in hand may be remarked as we passe through it pag. 1. He tels us the Donatists had two principles 1. that they were the onely Church of Christ in a corner of Africk and left no Church in the world but their owne 2. That none were truly baptized or entred members of the Church of Christ but by some Minister of their party These Principles he saies are againe improved by men of another party whom though yet he name not yet it is evident whom he intends and pag 3. he requires my judgement of those principles Because I would not willingly be wanting in any thing that may tend to his satisfaction though I have some reason to conjecture at my unhappinesse in respect of the event I shall with all integrity give him my thoughts of the principles expresséd above 1. Then if they were considered in reference to the Donatists who owned them I say they were wicked corrupt erroneous principles tending to the disturbance of the communion of Saints and everting all the rules of love that our Lord Jesus Christ hath given to his disciples and servants to observe if he intend my judgment of them in reference to the Churches of England which he calls independent I am sorry that he should thinke he hath any reason to make this inquiry I know not that man in the world who is lesse concerned in obteining Countenance to those principles then I am Let them who are so ready on all occasions or provocations to cast abroad the solemne formes of reproach Schismaticks Sectaries Hereticks and the like search their owne hearts as to a conformity of spirit unto these principles It is not what men say but what men doe that they shall be judged by As the Donatists were not the first who in story were charged with Schisme no more was their Schisme confined to Africk The agreement of multitudes in any principles makes it in its selfe not one whit better and in effect worse For my part I acknowledge the Churches in England Scotland and France Helvetia the netherlands Germany Greece Muscovia c. as far as I know of them to be true Churches such for ought I know may be in Italy or Spaine and what pretence or colour this Reverend person hath to fix a contrary perswasion upon me with so many odious imputations and reflections of being one of the Restorers of all lost Churches and the like I professe I know not These things will not be peace in the latter end shall the sword devour for ever I dare not suppose that he will aske why then do I separate from them he hath read my booke of Schisme wherein I have undeniably proved that I have separated from none of them and I am loath to say though I feare before the close of my discourse I shall be compelled to it that this Reverend Author hath answered a matter before he understood it confuted a book whose maine and chiefe designe he did not once apprehend The rest of this chapter is composed of reflections upon me from my owne words wrested at his pleasure and added to according to the purpose in hand and the taking for granted unto that end that they are in the right we in the wrong that their Churches are true churches and yet not esteemed so by me that we have separated from those churches with such like easie suppositions He is troubled that I thought the mutuall chargings of each other with Schisme between the Presbyterians and Independents was as to its heat abated and ready to vanish wherein he hath invincibly compelled me to acknowledge my mistake and I assure him I am heartily sorry that I was mistaken it will not be
separation into parties in the politicall use of the word why it may not so be used in the ecclesiasticall sense I see no reason but if this be the way of begging the Question I confesse I know not what course to take to prove what I intend Such words are used sometimes in warm disputes causelessely it were well they were placed where there is some pretence for them Certainly they will not serve every turne Before I asserted the use of the word I instanced in all the places where it is used and evinced the sense of it from them if this be begging it is not that lazy trade of begging which some use but such as a man had as good professedly worke as follow How well he hath disproved this sense of the word from Scripture we have seen I am not concerned in his seeing no reason why it may not be used in the ecclesiasticall sense according to his conception my enquiry was how it was used not how it might be used in this Reverend Authors judgment And this is the substance of all that is offered to overthrow that principle which if it abide and stand he must needs confesse all his following pains to be to no purpose He sees no reason but it may be as he saies After the declaration of some such suspitions of his as we are now wonted unto and which we cannot deny him the liberty of expressing though I professe he do it unto my injurie he saies this is the way on the one hand to free all church-separation from schisme and on the other to make all particular churches more or lesse inschismaticall well the first is denyed what is offer'd for the confirmation of the second saith he what one congregation almost is there in the world where there are not differences of judgment whence ensue many troubles about the compassing of one common end and designe I doubt whether his owne be free therefore If my testimony may remove his scruple I assure him through the grace of God hitherto it hath been so and I hope it is so with multitudes of other Churches those with whome it is otherwise it will appear at last to be more or lesse blameable on the account of Schisme Omitting my farther explication of what I had proposed he passes unto p. 27. of my book and thence transcribes these words they had differences among themselves about unnecessary things on these they engaged into disputes and sidings even in the solemne assemblies probably much vaine janglings alienation of affections exasperations of spirit with a neglect of due offices of love ensued hereupon whereunto he subjoines that the Apostle charges this upon them is true but was that all were there not divisions into parties as well as in judgments we shall consider that ere long But I am sorry he hath waved this proper place of the consideration of this important assertion the truth is hic pes figâ—ndus if he remove not this position he labours in vain for the future I desire also to know what he intends by divisions into parties if he intend that some were of one party some of another in these divisions and differences it is granted there can-be no difference in judgment amongst men but they must on that account be divided into parties but if he intend thereby that they divided into severall churches assemblies or congregations any of them setting up new churches on a new account or separating from the publick assemblies of the church whereof they were and that their so doing is reproved by the Apostle under the name of Schisme then I tell him that this is that indeed whose proofe is incumbent on him Faile he herein the whole foundation of my discourse continues firme and unshaken the truth is I cannot meet with any one attempt to prove this which alone was to be proved if he intended that I should be any farther concerned in his discourse then onely to find my selfe revil'd and abused Passing over what I produce to give light and evidence unto my assertion he proceeds to the consideration of the observations and inferences I make upon it p. 29. and onward The first he insists upon is that the thing mentioned is entirely in one Church amongst the members of one particular society no mention is made of one church divided against another or separated from another To this he replies 1. that the church of Corinth was a collective church made up of many congregations and that I my selfe confesse they had solemne assemhlies not one assembly onely that I beg the Question by taking it for one single congregation But I suppose one particular congregation may have more then one solemne assembly even as many as are the times wherein they solemnly assemble 2. I supposed I had proved that it was only one congregation that used to assemble in one place that the Apostle charged this crime upon and that this Reverend Author was pleased to overlook what was produced to that purpose I am not to be blamed 3. Here is another discovery that this Reverend person never yet clearly understood the designe of my treatise nor the principles I proceed upon Doth he think it is any thing to my present businesse whither the church of Corinth were such a church as Presbyterians suppose it to be or such a one as the Independents affirme it whilst all ackowledge it to be one church be that particular church of what kind it will if the Schisme rebuked by the Apostle consisted in division in it and not in separation from it as such I have evinced all that I intended by the Observation under consideration Yet this he againe persues and tells me that there were more particular churches in and about Corinth as that at Cenchrea and that their differences were not confined to the verge of one church for there were differences abroad out of the Church and saies that at unawares I confess that they disputed from house to house and in the publick assemblies but I will assure the Reverend Author I was aware of what I said Is it possible he should suppose that by the verge of one Church I intended the meeting place and the assembly therein was it at all incumbent on me to prove that they did not manage their differences in private as well as in publick is it likely any such thing should be did I deny that they sided and made parties about their divisions and differences is it any thing to me or to any thing I affirme how where and when they managed their disputes and debated their controversies it is true there is mention of a church at Cenchrea but is there any mention that that church made any separation from the church of Corinth or that the differences mention'd were between the members of these severall churches is it any thing to my present designe though there were 20 particular congregations in Corinth supposing that on any consideration they were one Church
we are hopelesse of any farther evidence to be tendred to that purpose That there were disorders amongst them in the celebration of the Lords supper is certain that they separated into severall congregations on that account or one from another or any from all is not in the least intimation signified but the plaine contrary shines in the whole state of things as there represented had that been done and had so to do been such an evill as is pleaded as causlesly to do it is no small evill it had not passed unreproved from him who was resolved in the things of God not to spare them 2 That they afterwards fell into the separation aimed at to be asserted Our Reverend Author affirmes that so he may make way for a reflection on the things of his present disquietment but as we are not as yet concerning our selves in what they did afterwards so when we are we shall expect somewhat more then bare affirmations for the proofe of it being more then ordinarily confident that he is not able from the Scripture or any other story of credit to give the least countenance to what he here affirmes But now as if the matter were well discharged when there hath not one word been spoken that in the least reaches the case in hand he saith 3. by way of supposition that there was but one single congregation at Corinth yet said he the Apostle dehorts the brethren from Schisme and writes to more then the Church of Corinth ch. 1. v. 2. A. I have told him before that though I am full well resolved that there was but one single congregation at Corinth in those daies yet I am not at all convinced as to the proposition under confirmatiō to assert any such thing but will suppose the church to be of what kind my Author pleaseth whilst he will acknowledge it to be the particular Church of Corinth I confesse the Apostle dehorts the brethren from Schisme even others as well as those at Corinth so far as the church of God in all places and ages are concerned in his instructions and dehortations when they fall under the case stated parallel with that which is the ground of his dealing with them at Corinth but what that Schisme was from which he dehorts them he declares only in the instance of the Church of Corinth and thence is the measure of it to be taken in reference to all dehorted from it Unto the 3d. Observation added by me he makes no returne but only laies down some exceptions to the exemplification given of the whole matter in another schisme that fell out in that Church about 40 yeares after the composure of this which was the occasion of that excellent Epistle unto them from the Church of Rome called the Epistle of Clement disswading them from Persisting in that strife and contention and pressing them to unity and agreement among themselves some things our Reverend Author offers as to this instance but so as that I cannot but suppose that he consulted not the Epistle on this particular occasion and therefore now I desire him that he would do so and I am perswaded he will not a second time give countenance to any such apprehension of the then state of the Church as though there were any separation made from it by any of the members thereof doeing or suffering the injury there complained of about which those differences and contentions arose I shall not need to go over againe the severalls of that Epistle one word mentioned by my selfe namely {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} he insists on and informes us that it implies a separation into other assemblies which he saies I waved to understand I confesse I did so in this place and so would he also if he had once consulted it The speech of the Church of Rome is there to the Church of Corinth in reference to the elders whom they had deposed the whole sentence is {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} and the words immediately going before are {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} then follows that {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} our Author I suppose understands Greek and so I shall spare my pains of transcribing Mr. Youngs latin translation or adding one in English of mine own and if he be pleased to read these words I think we shall have no more of his {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} If a faire opportunity call me forth to the farther mannagement of this controversy I shall not doubt but from that Epistle and some other pieces of undoubted antiquity as the Epistle of the Church of Vienna and Lyons of Smyrna with some publick records of those daies as yet preserved worthy all of them to be written in letters of Gold to evince that state of the Churches of Christ in those daies as will give abundant light to the principles I proceed upon in this whole businesse And thus have I briefly vindicated what was proposed as the precise Scripture notion of schisme against which indeed not any one objection hath beenraised that speaks directly to the thing in hand Our Reverend Author being full of warme affections against the independents and exercised greatly in disputing the common principles which either they hold or are supposed so to do measures every thing that is spoken by his apprehension of those differences wherein as he thinks their concernment doth lie had it not bin for some such prejudice for I am unwilling to ascribe it to more blameable principles it would have been almost impossible that he should have once imagined that he had made the least attempt towards the eversion of what I had asserted much lesse that he had made good the title of his book though he scarce forgets it or any thing concerning it but its proofe in any one whole leafe of his treatise It remaines then that the nature and notion of Schisme as revealed and described in the Scripture was rightly fixed in my former discourse and I must assure this Reverend Author that I am not afrighted from the embraceing and maintaining of it with those scare crowes of new light singularity and the like which he is pleased frequently to set up to that purpose The discourse that ensues in our Author concerning a parity of reason to prove that if that be schisme then much more is separation so shall afterwards if need be be considered when I proceed to shew what yet farther may be granted without the least prejudice of truth though none can necessitate me to recede from the precise notion of the name and thing delivered in the Scripture I confess I cannot but marvell that any man undertaking the examination of that Treatise and expressing so much indignation at the thoughts of my discourse that lyeth in this businesse should so sleightly passe over that whereon he knew that I laid the great weight of the whole Hath he so much as indeavourd to prove that that
that 's the phraseology this Author in his love to unity delights in have broken the union of their churches which we have no more done then they have broken the union of ours for we began our reformation with them on even tearms and were as early at work as they yet what coulour what excuse can be invented to alleviate the guilt of the latter part of it that we have separated from all the reformed churches as no churches and yet he repeats this again pag. 106. with especiall reflexion on my selfe I wonder not saith he that the Doctor hath unchurched Roome for he hath done as much to England and all forraign protestant churches and makes none to be members of the church but such as are by covenant and consent joyned to some of their congregations Now truly though all righteous laws of men in the world will afford recompence and satisfaction for calumniating accusations and slaunders of much lesse importance then this here publickly ownd by our Reverend Author yet seeing the gospell of the blessed God requires to forgive and passe by greater injuries I shall labour in the strength of his grace to bring my heart unto conformity to his will therein notwithstanding which because by his providence I am in that place and condition that others also that fear his name may be some way concern'd in this unjust imputatiō I must declare that this is open unrighteousness wherein neither love nor truth hath been observed How little I am concernd in his following parallell of Independentisme and Donatisme wherein he proceeds with the same truth and candor or in all that followes thereupon is easy for any one to judg He proceeds to scan my Answers to the Romanists as in reference to their charge of Schisme upon us and saies I do it sutable to my own principles And truly if I had not I think I had been much to blame I referre the Reader to the Answers given in my book and if he like them not notwithstanding this Authors exceptions I wish he may fix on those that please him better in them there given my conscience doth acquiesce But he comes in the next place to Arguments wherein if he prove more happy then he hath done in Accusations he will have great cause to rejoyce By a double Argument as he saies he will prove that there may be Schisme besides that in a particular Church His first is this Schisme is a breach of Union but there may be a breach of union in the Catholick visible church His second this where there are differenccs raysed in matter of faith professed wherein the union of the Catholick Church consists there may be a breach of union but there may be differences in the Catholick or among the members of the Catholick church in matter of faith professed Ergo Having thus laid down his Arguments he falls to conjecture what I will answer and how I will evade but it will quickly appear that he is no lesse unhappy in arguing and conjecturing then he is and was in accusing For to consider his first Argument if he will undertake to make it good as to its forme I will by the same way of arguing ingage my selfe to prove what he would be unwilling to find in a regular conclusion But as to the matter of it 1. Is Schisme every breach of union or is every breach of Union schisme Schisme in the Ecclesiasticall notion is granted to be in the present dispute the breach of the union of a church which it hath by the institution of Christ and this not of any union of Christs institution but of one certaine kind of union for as was proved there is an union whose breach can neither in the language of the Scripture nor in reason nor common sense be called or accounted schisme nor ever was by any man in the world nor can be without destroying the particular nature of schisme and allowing only the generall notion of any separation good or bad in what kind soever So that secondly it is granted not onlie that there may be a breach of union in the Catholick church but also that there may be a breach of the union of the Catholick church by a deniall or relinquishment of the profession wherein it consists but that this breach of union is sehisme because sehisme is a breach of union is as true as that every man who hath two eyes is every thing that hath two eyes For his second it is of the same importance with the first there may be differences in the Catholick church and breaches of union among the members of it which are far enough from the breach of the union of that church as such Two professors may fall out and differ and yet I think continue both of them professors still Paul and Barnabas did so Chrysostome and Epiphanius did so Cyrill and Theodoret did so That which I denied was that the breach of the union of the catholick church as such is Schisme He proves the contrary by affirming there may be differences among the members of the catholick church that do not break the union of it as such But he saies though there be Apostasy or Heresy yet there may be Schisme also but not in respect of the breach of the same union which only he was to prove Besides evill surmizes reproaches false criminations and undue suggestions I find nothing wherein my discourse is concerned to the end of this chap. pag. 109. upon the passage of mine we are thus come off from this part of Schisme for the relinquishment of the Catholick church which we have not done and so to do is not schisme but a sin of another nature and importance he adds that the ground I goe upon why separation from a true church he must meane the catholick church or he speaks nothing at all the businesse in hand is no schisme is that afore mentioned that a schisme in the Scripture notion is onely a division of jugment in a particular assembly But who so blind as they that will not see the ground I proceeded on evidently openly solely was taken from the nature of the Catholick church its union and the breach of that union and if obiter I once mention that notion I do it upon my confidence of its truth which I here againe tender my selfe in a readinesse to make good to this Reverend Author if at any time he will be pleased to command my personall attendance upon him to that purpose To repeat more of the like mistakes and surmizes with the wranglings that ensue on such false suppositions to the end of this chapter is certainly needlesse for my part in and about this whole businesse of separation from the catholick church I had not the least respect to Presbyterians or Independents as such nor to the differences betweē them which alone our Author out of his zeale to truth and peace attends unto If he will fasten the guilt of Schisme on any
by the free grace of God received our new birth through the preaching of the word neither they nor we as to the practice of our waies were in England so that their concernment as such in the concession is very small and we hope since in respect of others our owne ministry hath not been altogether fruitlesse though we make no comparison with them In rendring of the next passage which is concerning anabaptists and anabaptisme I shall not contend with him he hath not in the least impaired the truth of what I assert in reference to them and their way I cannot but take notice of that passage which for the substance of it hath so often occurred and that is this doth not himselfe labor in this booke to prove that the administration of ordinances in our assemblies is null our ordination null and antichristian For the proofe of which suggestion he referrs his Reader to page 197 of my book I confesse seeing this particular quotation I was somewhat surprised and began to feare that some expression of mine though contrary to my professed judgment might have given countenance to this mistake and so be pleaded as a Justification of all the uncharitablenesse and something else wherewith his book is replenished but turning to the place I was quickly delivered from my trouble though I must ingeniously confesse I was cast into another which I shall not now mention Page 167. we arrive at that which alone almost I expected would have been insisted on and quite contrary thereto it is utterly waved namely the wholebusinesse of a nationall Church upon which account indeed all the pretence of the charge this reverend Author is pleased to mannage doth arise Take that out of the way and certainly they and we are upon even termes and if we will be judged by them who were last in possession of the Reiglement of that church upon supposition that there is such a church still they are no more Interested in it then we yea are as guilty of schisme from it as we But that being set aside and particular churches only remaining It will be very difficult for him to raise the least pretence of his great charge But let us consider what he thinks meete to fasten on in that discourse of mine about a nationall church The first thing is my inquiry whether the denyall of the Institution of a nationall church which he pleads not for doth not deny in consequence that we had either ordinances or ministry amongst us to which I say that though it seemes so to do yet indeed it doth not because there was then another church state even that of particular churches amongst us with many kind reflections of my renouncing my ministry and rejecting of my jejune and empty vindication of their ministry which yet is the very same that himselfe fixes on he asks me how I can in my conscience beleive that there were any true ministers in this church in the time of its being nationall and so proceeds to inferre from hence my denying of all ministry and ordinances among them Truly though I were more to be despised then I am if that be possible yet it were not common prudence for any man to take so much paines to make me his enemy whether I will or no He cannot but know that I deny utterly that ever we had indeed whatever men thought a nationall church for I grant no such thing as a nationall church in the present sense contended about That in England under the rule of the prelates when they looked on the church as nationall there were true churches and true ministers though in much disorder as to the way of entring into the ministry and Dispensing of ordinances I grant freely which is all this reverend Author If I understand him pleads for and this he saies I was unwilling to acknowledge lest I should thereby condemne my selfe as a schismatick Truly in the many sad differences and divisions that are in the world amongst Christians I have not been without sad and jealous thoughts of heart lest by any doctrine or practise of mine I should occasionally contribute any thing unto them If it hath been otherwise with this Author I envy not his frame of spirit But I must freely say that having together with them weighed the reasons for them I have been very little moved with the clamorous accusations and insinuations of this Author In the meane time if it be possible to give him satisfaction I here let him know that I assent unto that summe of all he hath to say as to the Church of England namely that the true and faithfull ministers with the people in their severall congregations administring the true ordinances of Jesus Christ whereof baptisme is one was and is the true Church state of England from which I am not separated nor do I think that some addition of humane prudence or Imprudence can disanull the ordinances of Jesus Christ upon the disavower made of any other nationall Church state and the assertion of this to answer all intents and purposes I suppose now that the Reverend Author knowes that it is incumbent on him to prove that we have been members of some of these particular Churches in due order according to the mind of Christ to all intents and purposes of Church membership and that we have in our Individuall persons raised causelesse differences in those particular churches whereof we were members respectively and so separated from them with the condemnation of them or else according to his owne principles he failes in his brotherly conclusion {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} I suppose the reader is weary of pursuing things so little to our purpose if he will hear any further that Independents are schismaticks that the setting up of their way hath opened a door to all evills and confusions that they have separated from all churches and condemne all churches in the world but their owne that they have hindred Reformation and the setting up of the Presbyterian Church that being members of our Churches as they are members of the nation because they are borne in it yet they have deserted them that they gather Churches which they pretend to be spick and span new they have separated from us that they countenance Quakers and all other Sectaries that they will reforme a nationall church whether men will or no though they say that they only desire to reforme themselves and plead for liberty to that end If any man I say have a mind to read or heare of this any more let him read the rest of this chapter or else converse with some persons whom I can direct him to who talke at this wholsome rate all the day long What seems to be my particular concernment I shall a little further attend unto Some words for that is the manner of mannaging this controversie are culled out from pag. 259. 260. to be made the matter of farther contest Thus they lie in
some joy one day that I was so He seems to be offended with my notion of Schisme because if it be true it will carry it almost out of the world and blesse the churches with everlasting peace He tells me that a learned Dr. said my book was one great Schisme I hope that is but one Drs. opinion because being non-sence it is not fit it should be entertained by many In the processe of his discourse he culls out sundry passages deliverd by me in reference to the great divisions and differences that are in the world among men professing the name of Christ and applies them to the difference between the Presbyterians and Independents with many notable lashes in his way when they were very little in my thoughts nor are the things spoken by me in any tolerable measure applicable to them I suppose no rationall man will expect that I should follow our Reverend Author in such waies and pathes as these it were easie in so doing to enter into an endlesse maze of words to little purpose and I have no mind to deale with him as he hath done by me I like not the copy so well as to write by it so his first chapter is discussed and forgiven CHAP. 4. Of the nature of schisme THe second Chapter of my booke whose examination this Author undertakes in the second of his containing the foundation of many inferences that ensue and in particular of that description of Schisme which he intends to oppose it might have been expected that he should not have culled out passages at his pleasure to descant upon but either have transcribed the whole or at least under one view have laid downe clearly what I proposed to confirmation that the state of the controversie being rightly formed all might understand what we say and whereof we do affirme but he thought better of another way of procedure which I am now bound to allow him in the reason whereof he knowes and other men may conjecture The first words he fixes on are the first of the Chapter The thing whereof we treat being a disorder in the instituted worship of God whereunto he replyes It is an ill signe or omen to stumble at the threshold in going out these words are ambiguous and may have a double sence either that schisme is to be found in matter of instituted worship onely or onely in the differences made in the time of celebrating instituted worship and neither of these is yet true or yet proved and so a mere begging of the thing in question for saith he Schisme may be in and about other matter besides instituted worship What measure I am to expect for the future from this entrance or beginning is not hard to conjecture The truth is the Reverend Author understood me not at all in what I affirmed I say not that Schisme in the Church is either about instituted worship or onely in the time of worship but that the thing I treat of is a disorder in the instituted worship of God and so it is if the being and constitution of any Church be a part of God's worship but when men are given to disputing they think it incumbent on them to question every word and expression that may possibly give them an advantage but we must now we are engaged take all in good part as it comes Having nextly granted my request of standing to the sole determination of Scripture in the controversie about the nature of schisme he insists on the Scripture use and notion of the word according to what I had proposed only in the metaphoricall sense of the word as applyed unto civill and politicall bodies he endeavours to make it appeare that it doth not only denote the difference and division that falls among them in judgement but their secession also into parties which though he proves not from any of the instances produced yet because he may not trouble himselfe any further in the like kind of needlesse labour I do here informe him that if he suppose that I deny that to be a Schisme where there is a separation and that because there is a separation as though schisme were in its whole nature exclusive of all separation and lost its being when separation ensued he hath taken my mind as rightly as he hath done the whole designe of my booke and my sense in his first animadversions on this Chapter But yet because this is not proved I shall desire him not to make use of it for the future as though it were so The first place urged is that of John 7. 43. There was a schisme among the people it is not pretended that here was any separation Acts 14. 4. the multitude of the city was divided that is in their judgment about the Apostles and their doctrine but not only so for {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} is spoken of them which expresses their separation into parties what weight this new criticisme is like to finde with others I know not for my part I know the words inforce not the thing aymed at and the utmost that seemes to be intended by that expression is the siding of the multitude some with one some with another whilst they were all in a publique commotion nor doth the context require any more The same is the case Acts 23. 7. where the Sadduces and Pharisees were divided about Paul whilst abiding in the place where the Sanedrim sate being divided into parties long before and in the testimony cited in my margent for the use of the word in other Authors the Author makes even that {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} to stand in opposition only to {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} nor was it any more There was not among the people of Rome such a separation as to break up the Corporation or to divide the Government as is known from the story The place of his owne producing Acts 19. 9. proves indeed that then and there there was a separation but as the Author confesses in the margent the word there used to expresse it hath no relation to {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} Applied to Ecclesiasticall things the Reverend Author confesses with me that the word is onely used in the first Epistle to the Corinthians 1 Cor. 19. ch. 11. 18. and therefore that from thence the proper use and importance of it is to be learned Having laid downe the use of the word to denote difference of mind and judgment with troubles ensuing thereupon amongst men met in some one assembly about the compassing of a common end and designe I proceed to the particular accommodation of it to Church-rents and schisme in that Solitary instance given of it in the church of Corinth What saies our Authour hereunto Sayes he Pag. 26. this is a fore-stalling the readers judgement by a meer begging of the thing in question as it hath in part been proved from the Scripture its selfe where it is used for
I assure you Sr. I am more troubled with your not understanding the business and designe I mannage then I am with all your reviling termes you have laden me withall Once for all unlesse you prove that there was a separation frō that Church of Corinth be it of what constitution it may by any be supposed as such into another church and that this is reproved by the Apostle under the name of Schisme you speak not one word to invalidate the principle by me laid downe and for what he addes that for what I say there was no one church divided against another or separated from another is assumed but not proved unlesse by a negative which is invallid he wrests my words I say not there was no such thing but that there was no mention of any such thing for though it be as cleare as the noone day that indeed there was no such thing it sufficeth my purpose that there was no mention of any such thing and therefore no such thing reproved under the name of Schisme With this one observation I might well dismisse the whole ensuing treatise seeing of how litle use it is like to prove as to the businesse in hand when the Author of it indeed apprehends not the principle which he pretends to oppose I shall once more tell him that he abide not in his mistake that if he intend to evert the principle here by me insisted on it must be by a demonstration that the Schisme charged on the Corinthians by Paul consisted in the separation from and relinquishment of that church whereof they were members and congregating into another not before erected or established for this is that which the Reformed Churches are charged to do by the Romanists in respect of their Churches and accused of schisme thereupon But the differences which he thinks good to mannage and maintain with and against the Independents do so possesse the thoughts of this Reverend Author that what ever occurres to him is immediately measured by the regard which it seems to bear or may possibly bear thereunto though that consideration were least of all regarded in its proposall The next observation upon the former thesis that he takes into his examination so far as he is pleased to transcribe it is this Here is no mention of any particular man or number of men separating from the assembly of the whole church or subducting of themselves from its power only they had groundlesse causlesse differences amongst themselves Hereunto our Author variously replyes and saies 1. was this all were not separations made if not from that church yet in that church as well as divisions Let the Scripture determine chap. 1. 11. ch. 5. 3. I am a Disciple of Paul said one and I a Disciple of Apollo said another in our language I am a member of such a ministers congregation saies one such a man for my money and so a third and hereupon they most probably separated themselves into such and such congregations ana is not separation the ordinary issue of such envyings I doubt not but that our Reverend Author supposeth that he hath here spoken to the purpose and matter in hand and so perhaps may some others think also I must crave leave to enter my dissent upon the account of the insuing reasons for 1. It is not separation in the Church by mens divisions and differences whilst they continue members of the same Church that I deny to be here charged under the name of Scisme but such a separation from the Church as was before described 2. The disputes amongst them about Paul and Apollos the instruments of their conversion cannot possibly be supposed to relate unto Ministers of distinct congregations among them Paul and Apollos were not so and could not be figures of them that were so that those expressions do not at all answer those which he is pleased to make parallell unto them 3. Grant all this yet this proves nothing to the cause in hand men may crye up some the Minister of one congregation some of another and yet neither of them separate from the one or other or the congregations themselves fall into any separation wherefore 4 He saies probably they separated into such and such congregations But this is most improbable for first there is no mention at all of those many congregations that are supposed but rather the contrary as I have declared is expressly asserted 2. There is no such thing mentioned or intimated nor 3. are they in the least rebuked for any such thing though the forementioned differences which are a lesse evill are reproved again and againe under the name of Schisme so that this most improbable improbability or rather vaine conjecture is a very mean refuge and retreat from the evidence of expresse Scripture which in this place is alone inquired after-Doth indeed the Reverend Author think will he pretend so to do that the holy Apostle should so expresly weightily and earnestly reprove their dissentions in the church whereof they were members and yet not speak one word or give the least intimation of their separation from the church had there indeed been any such thing I dare leave this to the conscience of the most partially addicted person under heaven to the Authors cause who hath any conscience at all nor dare I dwell longer on the confutation of this fiction though it be upon the matter the whole of what I am to contend withall But he farther informes us that there was a separation to parties in the church of Corinth at least as to one ordinance of the Lords supper as appears c. 11. v. 18 21 22 23. and this was part of their Schisme v. 16. And not long after they separated into other Churches sleighting and undervaluing the first ministers and churches as nothing or lesse pure then their owne which we see practised sufficiently at this day A. Were not this the head seate of the first part of the controversie insisted on I should not be able to prevaile with my selfe to cast away precious time in the consideration of such things as these being tendered as suitable to the businesse in hand It is acknowledged that there were differences amongst them and disorders in the administration of the Lords supper that therein they used respect of persons as the place quoted in the margin by our Author Jam. 2. 1 2 3. manifests that they were ready to do in other places the disorder the Apostle blames in the administration of the ordinances was when they came together in the Church v. 18. when they came together in one place v. 20. there they tarried not one for another as they ought v. 33. but coming unprepared some having eaten before some being hungry v. 21. all things were mannaged with great confusion amongst them v. 22. and if this prove not that the Schisme they were charged withall consisted in a separation from that church with which they came together in one place
discipline instituted by Christ is corrupted among them with which corruption he dares not defile himselfe is no where in the Scripture called Schisme nor is that case particularly exemplified or expressely supposed whereby a Judgment may be made of the fact at large but we are left upon the whole matter to the guidance of such generall rules and principles as are given us for that end and purpose Such is my meanesse of apprehension that I could not understand but that either this assertion must be subscribed unto as of irrefragable verity or else that instances to the contrary must have been given out of the Scripture for on that hinge alone doth this present controversie and that by consent turne it selfe But our Reverend Author thinks good to take another course for which his reasons may easily be conjectured and excepts against the assertion it selfe in Generall first as ambiguous and fallacious And then also intimates that he will scan the words in perticular Mihi jussa capessere c. 1. He saies that I tell not whither a man may separate where there is corruption in some one of these onely or in all of them nor 2. How farre some or all of these must be corrupted before we separate A. This is no small vanity under the sunne that men will not onely measure themselves by themselves but others also by their own measure Our Author is still with his finger in the sore and therefore supposes that others must needs take the same course Is there any thing in my assertion whither a man may separate from any church or no any thing upon what Corruption he may lawfully so do any thing of stating the difference betwixt the Presbiterians and Independants do I at all fix it on this foâ—t of account when I come so to doe I humbly beg of this Author that if I have so obscurely and intricately delivered my selfe and meaning that he cannot come to the understanding of my designe nor import of my expressions that he would favour me with a command to explain my selfe before he engage into a publicke refutation of what he doth not so clearly apprehend Alas I do not in this place in the least intend to justify any separation nor to shew what pleas are sufficient to justify a separation nor what corruption in the church separated from is necessary thereunto nor at all regard the controversie his eye is allwaies on but onely declare what is not comprised in the precise Scripture notion of Schisme as also how a Judgment is to be made of that which is so by me excluded whither it be good or evill Would he have been pleased to have spoken to the businesse in hand or any thing to the present purpose it must not have been by an inquiry into the grounds reasons of separation how farre it may be justified by the plea mentioned or how farre not when that plea is to be allowed and when rejected but this only was incumbent on him to prove namely that such a separation upon that plea or the like is called Schisme in the Scripture and as such a thing condemned What my concernment is in the ensuing observations that the Judaicall Church was as corrupt as ours that if a bare plea true or false will serve to justifie men all separatists may be justified he himselfe will easily perceive But however I cannot but tell him by the way that he who will dogmatize in this controversy from the Judaicall Church and the course of proceedings amongw them to the direction and limitation of duty as to the churches of the Gospel considering the vast important differences between t he constitutions of the one the other with the infallible obligation to certain principles on the account of the typicall institution in that Primitive Church when there neither was nor could be any more in the world must expect to bring other Arguments to compasse his designe then the analogie pretended For the justification of Separatists of the reason if it will ensue upon the examination for separation and the circumstances of the seperating whereunto I referre them let it follow and let who will complain But to fill up the measure of the mistake he is ingaged in he tells us pag. 75. that this is the pinch of the question whither a man or a company of men may separate from a true Church upon a plea of CorruptioÌ„ in it true or false set up another Church as to ordinances renouncing that Church to be a true Church This saith he is plainely our case at present with the Doctor and his Associates truly I do not know that ever I was necessitated to a more sad and fruitlesse imployment in this kind of labour and travaile Is that the question in present agitation is any thing word title or iota spoken to it is it my present businesse to state the difference between the Presbyterians and Independents do I anywhere do it upon this account do I not every where positively deny that there is any such separation made nay can common honesty allow such a state of a question if that were the businesse in hand to be put upon me are their ordinances and churches so denied by me as is pretended what I have often said must again be repeated The Reverend Author hath his eye so fixed on the difference between the Presbyterians and the Independants that he is at every turn lead out of the way into such mistakes as it was not possible he should otherwise be overtaken withall this is perhaps mentis gratissimus error But I hope it would be no death to him to be delivered from it When I laid downe the principles which it was his good will to oppose I had many things under consideration as to the settling of Conscience in respect of manifold oppositions and to tell him the truth least valued that which he is pleased to mannage and to look upon as my sole intendment if it be not possible to deliver him from this strong imagination that carries the images and species of Independency alwaies before his eies we shall scarce speak ad idem in this whole discourse I desire then that he would take notice that as the state of the controversy he proposes doth no more relate to that which peculiarly is pretended to ly under his consideration then any other thing whatever that he might have mentioned so when the peculiar difference between him and the Independents comes to be mannaged scarce any one terme of his state will be allowed Exceptions are in the next place attempted to be put in to my assertion that there is no example in the Scripture of any one Churches departure from the union which they ought to hold with others unlesse it be in some of their departures from the common faith which is not Schisme much with the same successe as formerly let him produce one instance and En Herbam I grant the Roman church on a
an interest in this church of Jesus Christ Our Reverend Author professes that he hath but little to say to these things some exceptions he puts in unto some expressions used in the explication of my sense in this particular that which he chiefely insists upon is the accommodation of that promise Matth. 16. 28. upon this rock will I build my church to the Church in this sense which he concludes to belong to the visible Church of professors now as I am not at all concerned as to the truth of what I am in confirmation of to which of these it be applyed so I am far from being alone in that application of it to the Catholick Church which I insist upon All our Divines that from hence prove the perseverance of all Individuall believers as all do that I have met withall who write on that subject are of the same mind with me Moreover the Church is built on this rock in its Individuals or I know not how it is so built The building on Christ doth not denote a meer relation of a generall body to his truth that it shall allwaies have an existence but the union of the Individualls with him in their being built on him to whom the promise is made I acknowledg it for as unquestionable a truth as any we believe that Christ hath had and ever shall have to the end of the world a visible number of those that professe his name and subjection to his kingdome because of the necessary consequence of profession upon believing but that that truth is intended in this promise any farther but in respect of this consequence I am not convinced And I would be loath to say that this promise is not made to every particular believer and only unto them being willing to vindicate to the Saints of God all those grounds of consolation which he is so willing they should be made partakers of As to the union of this Church and the breach of it our Reverend Author hath a little to say because there may be some decaies in true grace in the members of this Church he affirms that in a sort there may be said to be a breach in this union and so consequently a schisme in this body He seemed formerly to be affraid lest all schisme should be thrust out of the world If he can retrive it on the account of any true believers failing in grace or falling for a season I suppose he needs not fear the losse of it whilst this world continues But it is fit wise and learned men should take the Liberty of calling things by what names they please so they will be pleasd withall not to impose their conceptions and use of tearms on them who are not able to understand the reasons of them It is true there may be a Schisme among the members of this church but not as members of this church nor with reference to the union thereof It is granted that schisme is the breach of union but not of every union much lesse not a breach of that which if there were a breach of it were not Schisme However by the way I am bold to tell this Reverend Author that this Doctrine of his concerning schisme in the Catholick invisible Church by the failings in Grace in any of the mēbers of it for a season is a new notion which as he cannot justify to us because it is false so I wonder how he will justify it to himselfe because it is new And what hath been obtained by the Author against my principles in this chapter I cannot perceive The nature of the church in the state considered is not opposed The union asserted not disproved the breach of that union is denyed as I suppose no lesse by him then my selfe That the instances that sōe Saints as mēbers of this Church may sometimes fail in grace more or lesse for some season that the members of this Church though not as members of this Church yet on other considerations may be guilty of Schisme concern not the businesse under debate himselfe I hope is satisfied CHAP. 7. OUr progresse in the next place is to the consideration of the Catholick Church visible Who are the members of this church whereof it is constituted what is required to make them so on what account men visibly professing the gospell may be esteemed justly devested of the priviledge of being members of this church with sundry respects of the church in that sense are in my treatise discussed The union of this church that is proper and peculiar unto it as such I declared to be the profession of the saving doctrine of the gospell not everted by any of the miscarriages errors or oppositions to it that are there recounted The breach of this union I manifest to consist in apostasy from the profession of the faith and so to be no Schisme upon whomsoever the guilt of it doth fall pleading the immunity of the Protestants as such from the guilt of the breach of this union and charging it upon the Romanists in all the waies whereby it may be broken an issue is put to that discourse What course our Reverend Author takes in the examination of this chapter the severalls of it whereon the strength of the controversie dothly is now to be consideed doth he deny this church to be a collection of all that are duly called Christians in respect of their profession to be that great multitude who throughout the world professe the Doctrine of the Gospell and subjection to Jesus Christ doth he denie the union of this church or that whereby that great multitude are incorporated into one body as visible and professing to be the profession of the saving doctrines of the Gospell of subjection to Jesus Christ according to them Doth he denie the dissolution of this union as to the interest of any member by it in the body to be by apostasy from the profession of the Gospell Doth he charge that apostasy upon those whom he calls Independents as such or if he should could he tolerably defend his charge Doth he prove that the breach of this union is under that formality properly Schisme nothing lesse as far as I can gather might not then the trouble of this Chapter have been spared or shall I be necessitated to defend every expression in my book though nothing at all to the main businesse under debate or else Independency must goe for a great Schisme I confesse this is somewhat an hard Law and such as I cannot proceed in obedience unto it without acknowledging his ability to compell me to go on further then I am willing yet I do it with this ingagement that I will so looke to my selfe that he shall never have that power over me any more nor will I upon any compulsion of useless needlesse cavils exceptions do so again so that in his reply he now knowes how to order his affairs so as to be freed from the
to church priviledges they are indeed in some places as to providentiall advantages of hearing the word preached but woe unto them on that account it shall be more tolerable for Mahumetans in that day of Christ then for them shall their Baptisme availe them though it were valid in its administration that is was celebrated in obedience to the cōmād of Christ is it not null to thē is not their circumcision uncircūcision shall such persons give their children any right to church priviledges let them if you please be so subjects to Christ as Rebells and Traitors are subject to their earthly princes they ought indeed to be so but are they so do they owne their Authority are they obedient to them do they enjoy any priviledge of Lawes or doth the Apostle anywhere call such persons as live in a course of wickednesse manifesting principles utterly inconsistent with the profession of the Gospell brethren God forbid we should once imagine these things so to be And so much for that chapter CHAP. VIII Of Independentisme and Donatisme THe Title of our Authors book is Independency a great Schisme of this chapter that it may be the better known what kind of schisme it is Independentisme is Donatisme Men may give what title they please to their books and chapters though perhaps few books make good their titles I am sure this doth not as yet nisi accusasse sufficiat Attempts of proof we have not as yet met withall what this chapter will furnish us withall we shall now consider He indeed that shall weigh the title Independentisme is Donatisme then casting his eye upon the first lines of the chapter it selfe find that the Reverend Author saies he cannot but acknowledge that what I plead for the vindication of protestants from the charge of schisme in their separation from Rome as the Catholick church to be rationall solid and judicious will perhaps be at a losse in conjecturing how I am like to be dealt withall in the following discourse a little patience will let him see that our Author laies more weight upon the Title then the preface of this chapter and that with all my fine trappings I am enrolled in the black booke of the Donatists but 1 quod fo rs feret feramus aequo animo or as another saith debemus optare optima cogitare difficulima ferre quaecunque erunt as the case is fallen out we must deal with it as we can 1. He saith he is not satisfied that he not only denies the Church of Rome so called to be a particular Church pag. 154. but also affirms it to be no Church at all That he is not satisfied with what I affirm of that Synagogue of Sathan where he hath his throne I cannot helpe it though I am sorry for it I am not also without some trouble that I cannot understand what he means by placeing my words so as to intimate that I say not only that the church of Rome is no particular church but also that it is no church at all as though it might in his judgment or mine be any Church if it be not a particular church For I verily suppose neither he nor I judg it to be that Catholick Church whereto it pretends But yet as I have no great reason to expect that this Reverend Author should be satisfied in any thing that I affirme so I hope that it is not impossible but that without any great difficulty he may be reconciled to himselfe affirming the very same thing that I do p. 113. It is of Rome in that sence wherein it claims it self to be a church that I speak in that sence he saies it is no church of Christs institution and so for my part I account it no church at all but he adds that he is far more unsatisfied that I undertake the cause of the Donatists and labour to exempt them from Schisme though I allow them guilty of other crimes But do I indeed undertake the cause of the Donatists do I plead for thē will he manifest it by saying more against them in no more words then I haved one do I labour to exempt them from Schisme are these the waies of peace love and truth that the Reverend Author walks in do I not condemne all their practises and pretensions from the beginning to the end can I not speak of their cause in Reference to the Catholick Church and its union but it must be affirmed that I plead for them But yet as if righteousnesse and truth had been observ'd in this crimination he undertakes as of a thing granted to give my grounds of doing what he affirms me to have done The first is as he saies His singular notion of Schisme limiting it only to differences in a particular Assembly 2. His jealousy of the charge of Schisme to be objccted to himselfe and party if separating from the true Churches of Christ be truly called Schisme A. What may I expect from others when so grave and Reverend a person as this Author is reported to be shall thus deal with me Sr I have no singular notion of Schisme but embrace that which Paul hath long since declared nor can you manifest any difference in my notion from what he hath delivered nor is that notion of Schisme at all under consideration in Reference to what I affirme of the Donatists who in truth were concerned in it the most of them to them to the utmost but the union of the Church Catholick and the breach thereof Neither am I jealous or fearfull of the charge ' of Schisme from any person living on the earth and least of all from men proceeding in church affaires upon the principles you proceed on Had you not been pleased to have supposed what you please without the least ground or colour or reason perhaps you would have as little satisfyed your selfe in the charge you have undertaken to manage against me as you have done many good men as the case now stands even of your own judgment in other things Having made this entrance he proceeds in the same way and pag. 164. laye's the foundation of the title of his booke this chapter of his charge of donatisme in these words This lies in full force against him and his party who have broken the union of our churches and separated themselves from all the protestant churches in the world not of their own constitution and that as no true churches of Christ this I say is the foundatiō of his whole ensuing discourse all the groūd that he hath to stand upon in the defence of the Invidious title of this chapter and what fruit he expects from this kind of proceeding I know not The day will manifest of what sort this work is Although he may have some mistaken apprehensions to countenance his conscience in the first part of his assertion or that it may be forgiven to inveterate praejudice though it be false namely that I and my party
on the account of separation from the Catholick church let him prove that that church is not made up of the universality of professors of the Gospell throughout the world under the limitations expressed that the union of it as such doth not consist in the profession of the truth and that the breach of that union whereby a man ceases to be a member of that Church is Schismes otherwise to tell me that I am a Sectary a Schismatick to fill up his pages with vaine surmizes and supposalls to talke of a difference and schsme among the members of the catholick church or the like impertinencies will never farther his discourse among men either rationall solid or judicious All that ensues to the end of this chapter is about the ordination of ministers wherein however he hath beē pleased to deal with me in much bitternesse of spirit with many clamours and false Accusations I am glad to find him p. 120. renouncing ordination from the Authority of the church of Rome as such for I am assured that by his so doing he can claime it no waie from by or through Rome for nothing came to us from thence but what came in and by the Authority of that Church CHAP. IX WE are now gathering towards what seems of most immediate concernment as to this Reverend Authors undertaking namely to treate of the nature of a particular church its union and the breach of that union the description I give of such a church is this It is a society of men called by the word to the obedience of the faith in Christ and joint performance of the worship of God in the same individuall ordinances according to the order by him prescribed This I professe to be a generall description of its nature waving all contests about accurate definitions which usually tend very little to the discovery or establishment of truth after some canvassing of this description our Author tells us that he grants it to be the definition of a particular church which is more then I intended it for only he adds that according to this description their churches are as true as ours which I presume by this time he knowes was not the thing in Question His ensuing discourse of the will of Christ that men should joine not all in the same individuall congregation but in this or that is by me wholly assented ūto and the matter of it contended for by me as I am able what he is pleased to adde about explicite covenanting and the like I am not at all for the present concerned in I purposely waved all expressions concerning it one way or other that I might not involve the businesse in hand with any unnecessary contests it is possible somewhat hereafter may be spoken to that subject in a tendency unto the reconciliation of the parties at variance His argument in the close of the Section for a Presbyterian church from Acts 20. 17. because there is mention of more elders then one in that Church and therefore it was not one single congregation I do not understand I think no one single congregation is wholly compleated according to the mind of Christ unlesse there be more elders then one it there should be elders in every Church and for my part so we could once agree practically in the matter of our churches I am under some apprehension that it were no impossible thing to reconcile the whole difference as to a Presbyterian church or a single congregation And though I be reproved a new for my pains I may offer ere long to the candid consideration of godly men something that may provoke others of better abilities and more leasure to endeavour the carrying on of so good a work Proceeding to the consideration of the unity of this church he takes notice of three things laid down by me previously to what I was farther to assert all which he grants to be true but yet will not let them passe without his animadversions The two first are that 1. a man may be a member of the Catholick invisible church and 2 of the visible Catholick church and yet not be joyned to a particular Church These as I said he ownes to be true but askes how I can reconcile this with what I said before namely that the members of the Catholick visible Church are initiated into the profession of the faith by Baptisme but where lies the difference why saith he Baptisme according to his principles is an ordinance of worship only to be enjoyed in a particular Church whilst he will grant what yet he doth denie but will be forced to grant that a minister is a minister to more then his owne church even to the Catholick Church and may administer Baptisme out of a particular church as Phillip did to the Eunuch A. How well this Author is acquainted with my principles hath been already manifested as to his present mistake I shall not complaine seeing that some occasion may be administred unto it from an expression of mine at least as it is printed of which I shall speak afterwards for the present he may be pleased to take notice that I am so far from confining Baptisme subjectively to a particular congregation that I do not believe that any member of a particular church was ever regularly baptized Baptisme precedes admission into Church membership as to a particular Church the subject of it is professing believers and their seed as such they have right unto it whither they be joined to any particular church or no suitable to this judgment hath been my constant and uninterrupted practise I desire also to know who told him that I deny a minister to be a minister to more then his own Church or averred that he may perform ministeriall duty only in and towards the members of his own congregation for so much as men are appointed the objects of the dispensation of the word I grant a man in the dispensation of it to act ministerially towards not only the members of the Catholick church but the visible members of the world also in contradistinction thereunto The third thing laid down by me whereunto also he assentes is that every believer is oblieged to join himselfe to some one of those Churches that there he may abide in Doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and prayer but my reasons whereby I prove this he saies he likes not so well and truly I cannot helpe it I have little hope he should like any thing well which is done by me Let him be pleased to furnish me with better and I shall make use of them but yet when he shall attempt so to doe it is odds but that one or other will find as many flawes in them as he pretends to do in mine But this he saith he shall make use of and that he shall make advantage of and I know not what as if he were playing a prize upon a stage The third reason is that which he likes
worst of all and I like the businesse the better that what he understands least that he likes worst it is that Christ hath given no direction for any duty of worship meerly and purely of soveraign institution but only to them and by them who are so joined Hereupon he askes 1. is Baptisme a a part of worship A yes and to be so performed by them that is a Minister in or of them I fear my expression in this place lead him to his whole mistake in this matter 2. prayer and reading of the word in private families are they no duty of worship An Not meerly and purely of soveraign institution 3. Is preaching to convert heathens a duty of worship not as described in all cases when it is it is to be performed by a minister and so he knowes my answer to his next invidious inquiry relating to my own person Against my fourth Reason taken from the Apostles care to leave none out of this order who were converted where it was possible he gives in the instance of the Eunuch and others converted where there were not enough to ingage in such societies that is in them with whom it was impossible my fift is from Christ's providing of officers for these Churches This also he saith is weak as the rest for first Christ provided officers at first for the Catholick Church that is the Apostles 2. all ordinary officers are set first in the Catholicke Church and every minister is first a minister to the Catholick Church and if saith he he deny this he knowes where to find a learned Antagonist A. But see what it is to have a mind to dispute will he deny that Christ appointed officers for particular Churches or if he should have a mind to do it will his arguments evince any such thing Christ appointed Apostles Catholick officers therefore he did not appoint officers for particular Churches though he commanded that elders should be ordained in every Church Pastors and teachers are set first in the Catholick church therefore Christ hath not ordained officers for particular Churches But this is the way with our Author if any word offers it selfe whence it is possible to draw out the mention of any thing that is or hath at any time been in difference between Presbiterians and Independents that presently is run away withall for my part I had not the least thought of the controversie which to no purpose at all he would here lead me to but yet I must tell him that my judgment is that ordinary officers are firstly to be ordained in particular churches and as I know where to find a learned Antagonist as to that particular so I do in respect of every thing that I affirme or deny in the businesse of Religion and yet I blesse the Lord I am not in the least disquieted or shaken in my adherence to the truth I professe My last reason he saith is fallacious and inconsequent and that because he hath put an inference upon it never intended in it Now the position that these reasons were produced to confirm being true and so acknowledged by himselfe because it is a truth that indeed I lay some more then ordinary weight upon it being of great use in the daies wherein we live I would humbly intreat this Reverend Author to send me his reasons whereby it may be confirmed and I shall promise him if they be found of more validity then those which according to my best skill I have allready used he shall obtain many thanks and much respect for his favour What he remarks upon or adds to my next discourse about instituted worship in generall I shall not need to insist on onely by the way I cannot but take notice of that which he calls a chiefe piece of Independencie and that is that those who are joined in church fellowship are so confined that they cannot or may not worship God in the same ordinances in other churches how this comes to be a cheife peice of Independency I know not It is contrary to the known practise of all the churches of England that I am acquainted with which he calls Independents For my part I know but one man of that mind and he is no child in these things For the ensuing discourse about the intercision of ordinances it being a matter of great importance and inquired into by me meerly in reference to the Roman Apostacy it needs a more serious disquisition then any thing at present administred by our Author will give occasion unto possibly in convenient time I may offer somewhat farther towards the investigation of the mind of God therein every thing in this present contest is so warped to the petty difference between Presbyterians and Independents that no faire progresse nor opportunity for it can be afforded If it may be in my next debate of it I shall wave al mentiō of those meaner differences as I remember I have not insisted on them in what I have allready proposed to this purpose so possibly the next time I may utterly escape For the present I do not doubt but the spirit of God in the Scripture is furnished with sufficient authority to erect new churches and set up the celebration of all ordinances on supposition that there was an intercision of them To declare the way of his exerting his Authority to this purpose with the obviating of all objections to the contrary is not a matter to be tossed up and down in this scambling chase and I am not a litle unhappy that this Reverend Person was in the dark to my designe and aime all along which hath intangled this dispute with so many impertinences But however I shall answer a question which he is pleased to put to me in particular he askes me then whither I do not think in my conscience that there were no true churches in England untill the Brownists our fathers the Anabaptists our elder brothers and our selves arose and gathered new Churches With thanks for the civility of the inquiry in the manner of its expression I answer no! I have no such thoughts and his pretence of my insinuation of any such thing is most vaine as also is his insultation thereupon truly if men will in all things take liberty to speak what they please they have no reason but to think that they may at one time or other heare that which will displease Having investigated the nature of a particular Church I proceed in my treatise of Schisme to inquire after the union of it wherein it doth consist and what is the breach thereof The summe is the joint consent of the members to walke together in celebration of the same numericall ordinances according to the mind of Jesus Christ is that wherein the union of such a Church doth consist This is variously excepted against and I know not what disputes about an implicit and explicit covenant of Specificating forms of the practise of new and old England of Admission
the mercy of God in Jesus Christ I can freely forgive unto you all your reproaches revilings hard censurings and endeavours to expose me to publick obloquie and yet hope that I may have before we dy a place in your heart and prayers CHAP. X. Independency no Schisme WE are come now to the chapter that must do the work intended or else operam oleum perdidimus Independentisme a great Schisme is the title of it what this Independentisme is he doth neither here declare nor in any other part of his book nor do I know what it is that he intends by it I heare indeed from him that it is a schisme a Sect but of what peculiar import or wherein it consists he hath not declared I suppose he would have it taken for separation from true Churches but neither doth the notion of the name though invidiously broached and disavowed by them to whom it is ascribed import any such thing nor is the thing it selfe owned by them with whom he pretends to have to do I find indeed that he tells us that all Sectaries are Independents Anabaptists Seekers Ranters Quakers Doth he expect that I should undertake their defence what if it should appear that I have done more against them then our Reverend Author and many of his brethren joined with him he may perhaps be willing to load my selfe and those which he is pleased to call my associats my party I know not what with their evills and miscarriages But is this done as becomes a Christian a Minister a Brother what security hath he that had he been the only judge and disposer of things in Religion in this nation if I and my associats had been sent to plant Churches among the Indians that he should have prevented the eruption of the errors and abominations which we have been exercised withall in this generation unlesse he had sent for Duke D'Alva's instruments to work his ends by and indeed there is scarce any Sect in the nation but had they their desires they would take that course This may be done by any that are uppermost if they please But how shall we know what it is he intends by Independentisme All it may be that are not Presbyterians are Independents Among these some professedly separate both frō them us for there are none that separate from them but withall they separate from us that I know of because as they say neither theirs nor ours are true Churches we grant them to be true Churches but withall denie that we separate from them is it possible at once to defend both these sects of men is it possible at once with the same arguments to charge them The whole discourse then of our Reverend Author being uniforme it can concerne but one of these sects of Independents which it is any man may judge that takes the least view of his treatise He deals with them that unchurch their Churches unminister their ministers disanull their ordinances leaving them Churchless officerlesse and in the like sad condition Is this Independentisme a Schism though that it is properly so called he cānot prove yet I hope he did not expect that I should plead for it what I shall do in this case I professe well I know not I here denie that I unminister their ministers unchurch their Churches hath this Author any more to say to me or those of my perswasion doth not this whole discourse proceed upon a supposition that it is otherwise with them with whom he hath to do only I must tell him by the way that if he suppose by this concession that I justifie and owne their way wherein they differ from the congregationall ministers in England to be of Christs institution or that I grant all things to be done regularly among them and according to the mind of Christ therein I must professe he is mistaken In breife by Independentisme he intends a separation from true Churches with condemning them to be no churches and their Ministers no Ministers and their ordinances none or Antichristian whatever becomes of the nature of schisme I disavow the appearing as an advocate in the behalfe of this Independentisme If by Independentisme he understand the peaceable proceeding of any of the people of God in this nation in the severall parts of it to joine themselves by their free consent to walk together in the observation and celebration of all the ordinanees of Christ appointed to be observed and celebrated in particular churches so to reforme themselves from the disorders wherein they were intangled being not able in some things to joine in that way of reformation which many godlie ministers cōmonly called Presbyterians have ingaged in and seek to promote without judging condemning thē as to the whole of their station or ordināces If this I say be intended by Independentisme when the Reverend Author shall undertake to prove it Schisme having not in this book spoken one word or title to it his discourse will be attended unto This whole chapter then being spent against them who deny them to be true Churches and defend separation I marvaile what can be said unto it by me or how I come to be concerned in it who grant them true Churches and denie separation But our Reverend Author knowing that if this bottome be taken from under him he hath no foundation for any thing he asserts thought it not sufficient to charg me over and over with what is here denyed but at length attempts to make it good frō mine own words which if he doth effect make good I confesse he changes the whole nature and state of the dispute in hand Let ut see thenhow he answers this undertaking From those words of mine the reformation of any church or any thing in it is the reducing of it to its primitive institution approving the assertion as true he labors to evince that I deny their Churches to be true Churches how so I pray why we erect new churches out of no Churches and it had been happy for England if we had all gone to do this work among the Indians What will prove Englands happinesse or unhappinesse the day will manifest this is but mans day and judgment He is coming who will not judg by the seeing of the eye nor by the hearing of the ear In the mean time we blesse God think all England hath caus to blesse God what ever become of us that he and our brethren of the same mind with him in the things of God have their liberty to preach the gospell and carry on the work of reformation in their native soyle and are not sent into the ends of the earth as many of ours have been But how doth our gathering of Churches denie them to be true churches Doth our granting them to be true Churches also grant that all the Saints in England are members of their Churches It is notoriously known that it is and was otherwise and that when they and we
began to reform thousands of the people of God in these nations had no reason to suppose themselves to belong to one particular Church rather then another They lived in one parish heard in another removed up and down for their advantage and were in bondage on that account all their daies But he saies in some words following I discover my very heart I cannot but by the way tell him that it is a sufficient evidence of his unacquaintednesse with me that he thinks there is need of searching and racking my words to discover my very heart in any thing that belongs though in never so remote a distance to the worship of God All that know me know how open and free I am in these things how ready on all occasions to declare my whole heart it is neither fear nor favour can influence me unto another frame But what are the words that make this noble discovery They are these that follow When any Society or combination of men what ever hitherto it hath been esteemed is not capable of such a reduction and revocation that is to its primitive institution I suppose I shall never provoke any wise or sober person if I professe I cannot look on such a society as a church of Christ His reply hereunto is the hinge upon which his whole discourse turneth and must therefore be considered Thus then he is not this reader at once to unchurch all the churches of England since the reformation for it is known during the raign of the prelates they were not capable of that reduction and what capacity our Churches are now in for that reduction partly by want of power and assistance from the magistrate without which some dare not set upon a reformation for fear of a praemunire partly by our divisions amongst our selves fomented by he knowes whom he cannot but see as well as we lament And hereupon he proceeds with sundry complaints of my dealing with them And now Chistian Reader what shall we say to these things A naked supposition of no strength nor weight that will not hold in any thing or case namely that a thing is not to be judged capable of that which by some externall force it is withheld from is the sole bottome of all this charge The Churches of England were capable of that reduction to their primitive institution under the prelates though in some things hindred by them from an actuall Reducement so they are now in sundry places where the work is not so much as attempted the sluggards feild is capable of being weeded the present pretended want of capacity from the non-assistance of the magistrate whilest perfect liberty for Reformation is given and the worke in its severall degrees incouraged will be found to be a sad plea for some when things come to be tryed out by the rule of the Gospell And for our divisions I confesse I begin to discover somewhat more by whom they are fomented then I did four daies agoe for the matter it selfe I desire our Reverend Author to take notice that I judg every church capable of a reduction to its primitive institution which all outward hinderances being removed and all assistances granted that are necessary for reformation according to the Gospell may be reduced into the forme and order appointed unto a particular church by Jesus Christ and where any society is not so capable let them call themselves what they please I shall advise those therein who have personally a due right to the priviledges purchased for them by Jesus Christ in the way of their administration by him appointed to take some other peaceable course to make themselves partakers of them and forgiving this advise I neither dread the anger nor Indignation of any man living in the world And so I suppose by this time the Author knowes what is become of his quod erat demonstrandum and here in room of it I desire him to accept of this return Those who in the judgment of charity were and continue members of the church catholick invisible by vertue of their union with Christ the head thereof and members of the generall visible church by their due profession of the savings truths of the gospell and subjection to Christ Jesus their King and Saviour according to them do walke in love and concord in the particular churches whereof by their own consent and choice they are members not judging and condemning other particular churches of Christ where they are not members as they are such as to their stationand priviledges being ready for all instituted communion with thē as revealed are not according to any gospell rule nor by any principles acknowledged amongst Christians to be judged or condemned as guilty of Schisme but such are all they for whom under any consideration what ever I have pleaded as to their immunity from this charge in my treatise of Schisme therefore they are not to be judged so guilty If you please you may adde Quod er at demonstratum I shall not digresse to a recharge upon this Reverend Author and those of the same profession with him as to their mistakes and miscarriages in the work of Reformation nor discusse their waies and principles wherein I am not satisfied as to their proceduce I yet hope for better things then to be necessitated to carry on the defensative of the way wherein I walk by opposing theirs It is true that he who stands upon meer defence is thought to stand upon none at all but I wait for better things from men then their hearts will yet allow them to think of I hope the Reverend Author thinks that as I have reasons wherewith I am satisfied as to my own way so I have those that are of the same weight with me against him But what ever he may surmise I have no mind to foment the divisions that are amongst us hence I willingly bear all his imputations without retortion I know in part how the case is in the world The greatest chargers have not alwaies the most of truth witnesse Papists Lutherans Prelutists Anabaptists I hope I can say in sincerity I am for peace though others make themselves ready for war But we must proceed a litle further though as to the cause by me undertaken to be managed causelessely The discourse of our Author from the place fixed on wherein he faintly indeavoured to make good the foundation of this chapter which I have allready considered consists of two parts 1. His Animadversions on some principles which I lay down as necessary to be stated aright and determined that the question about gathering churches may be clearly and satisfactorily debated Some of them he saies have been handled by others which if it be a rule of silence to him and me it might have prevented this tedious debate what ever his thoughts may be of my pamphlet I do not fear to affirm of his Treatile that I have found nothing in it from the beginning to the ending but what
my Treatise As the not giving a mans selfe up unto any way and submiting to any establishment pretended or pleaded to be of Christ which he hath not light for and which he was not by any act of his owne formerly ingaged in cannot with any colour or pretence of reason be reckoned to him for schisme though he may if he persist in his refusall prejudice his owne edification so no more can a mans peaceable relinquishment of the ordinary communion of one Church in all its relations be so esteemed These words have as yet unto me a very harmelesse aspect but our Reverend Author is sharp-sighted and sees I know not what monsters in them for first saith he here he seems to me to be a very Sceptick in his way of independency why so I pray This will gratify all sects Quakers and all with a toleration how I pray it is Schisme not toleration we are treating about But this leaves them to judge of as well as others what is and what is not according to the mind of Christ why pray Sr. who is appointed to judge finally for them why then should they be denied their liberty but is that the thing under consideration had you concluded that their not submitting to what they have not light for its institution is not properly Schisme you should have seen how far I had been concerned in the inference but excursions unto Quakers c. are one topick of such discourses But now he askes me one Question it seems to try whither I am a Sceptick or no whether saith he does he believe his owne way to be the only true way of Christ for he hath instituted but one way having run from and renounced all other waies in this nation I promise you this is a hard Question and not easily answered If I deny it he will say I am a Sceptick and other things also will be brought in if I affirme it it may be he will say that I condemne their churches for no churches and the like it is good to be wary when a man hath to deale with wise men how if I should say that our way and their way is for the substance of them one way and so I cannot say that my way is the only true way exclusively to theirs I suppose this may do pretty well But I fear this will scarce give satisfactiō yet I know not well how I can go any farther yet this I will adde I doindeed believe that wherein their way and our way differ our way is according to the mind of Christ and not theirs and this I am ready at any time God assisting personally to maintaine to him and as for my running from waies of religion I dare againe tell him these reproaches and calumnies become him not at all But he proceeds if so saith he is not every man bound to come into it and not upon every conceived new light to relinquish it Truly I think Mr. C. himselfe is bound to come into it and yet I do not think that his not so doeing makes him a Schismatick and as for relinquishment I assert no more then what he himselfe concludes to be lawfull And thus Christian Reader I have given thee a briefe account of all things of any importance that I could meet withall in this treatise and of many which are of very little if thou shalt be pleased to compare my treatise of Schisme with the refutation of it thou wilt quickly see how short this is of that which it pretends to how untouched my principles do abide and how the most materiall parts of my discourse are utterly passed by without any notice taken of them The truth is in the way chosen by this Reverend Author to proceed in men may multiply writings to the worlds end without driving any controversy to an issue descanting and harping on words making exceptions to particular passages and the like is an easy and facile and to some men a pleasant labour what small Reason our Author had to give his book the title it bears unlesse it were to discover his designe I hope doth by this time appeare Much of the proofe of it lies in the repeated asseverations of it it is so and it is so If he shall be pleased to send me word of one argument tending that way that is not founded in an evident mistake I will promise him if I live a reconsideration of it In the mean time I humbly beg of this Reverend Author that he would review in the presence of the Lord the frame of spirit wherein he wrote this charge as also that he would take into his thoughts all the reproaches and all that obloquy he hath endeavoured to load me causlesly and falsly withall As for my selfe my name reputation and esteeme with the Churches of God to whom he hath indeavoured to render me odious I commit the whole concernment of them to him whose presence through grace I have hitherto injoyed and whose promise I leane upon that he will never leave me nor forsake me I shall not complaine of my usage but what am I of the usage of many pretious Saints and holy Churches of Jesus Christ to him that lives and sees any farther then by begging that it may not be laid to his charge and if so meane a person as I am can in any way be serviceable to him or to any of the churches that he pleads for in reference to the Gospell of Christ I hope my life will not be deare to me that I may effect it and I shall not cease to pray that both he and those who promoted this worke in his hand may at length consider the many calls of God that are evident upon them to lay aside these unseemly animosities and to endeavour a coalition in love with all those who in sincerity call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ their Lord and ours For the distances themselves that are between us wherein we are not as yet agreed what is the just state of them the truth and warrantablenesse of the principles whereupon we proceed with the necessity of our practice in conformity thereunto what we judge our Brethren to come short in of or wherein to go beyond the mind of Jesus Christ with a farther ventilation of this businesse of Schisme I have some good grounds of expectation that possibly ere long we may see a faire discussion of these things in a pursuit of truth and peace FINIS
trouble of a Rejoinder His first attempt in this chapter is upon a short discourse of mine in my processe which I professe not to be needfull to the purpose in hand relating to some later disputes about the nature of this Church wherein some had affirmed it to be a Genus to particular churches which are so many distinct species of it and others that it was a totum made up of particular churches as its parts both which in some sense I denyed partly out of a desire to keep off all debates about the things of God frō being enwrapped and agitated in and under Philosophicall notions and faigned tearms of Art which hath exceedingly multiplied controversies in the world and rendred them endlesse and doth more or lesse streighten or oppose every truth that is so dealt withall partly because I evidently saw men deducing false consequents from the supposition of such notions of this Church for the first way our Reverend Author lets it passe onely with a remarke upon my dissenting from Mr Hooker of New England which he could not but note by the way although he approves what I affirme A worthy note as though all the brethren of the Presbyterian way were agreed among themselves in all things of the like importance or that I were in my judgment enthralled to any man or men so that it should deserve a note when I dissent from them Truly I blesse God I am utterly unacquainted with any such frame of spirit or bondage of mind as must be supposed to be in them whose dissent from other men is a matter of such observation One is my Master to whom alone my heart and judgement are in subjection for the latter I do not say absolutely that particular Churches are not the parts of the Catholique visible in any sense but that they are not so parts of it as such so that it should be constituted made up by thē of thē for the order and purpose of an instituted Church for the celebration of the worship of God and institutions of Christ according to the Gospell which when our Author proves that it is I shall acknowledge my selfe obliged to him He saies indeed that it was once possible that all the members of the Catholique Church should meet together to heare one sermon c. But he is to prove that they were bound to do so as that Catholique Church and not that it was possible for all the members of it under any other notion or consideration so to convene But he saies they are bound to do so still but that the multitude makes it impossible Credat Apella that Christ hath bound his Church to that which himselfe makes impossible Neither are they so bound they are bound by his own acknowledgement to be members of particular Churches in that capacity are they bound so to convene those churches being by the will of God appointed for the seat of ordinances And so what he adds in the next place of particular Churches being bound according to the institution of Christ to assemble for the celebration of ordinances is absolutely destructive of the former figment But he would know a reason why 40 or more that are not members of one particular church but only of the Catholick meeting together may not join together in all ordinances as well as they may meet to heare the word preached and often doe to which I answer that it is because Jesus Christ hath appointed particular Churches and there is more required to them then the occasionall meeting of some any or all if possible of the members of the Catholick church as such will afford His reflexions upon my selfe added in that place are now growne so common that they deserve not any notice In his ensuing discourse if I may take leave to speak freely to our Reverend Author he wrangles about termes and expressions adding to and altering those by me used in this businesse at his pleasure to make a talke to no purpose The summe of what he pretends to oppose is that this universall church or the universality of Professors considered as such neither formally as members of the church Catholick mistically Elect nor as any members of any Particular Church have not as such any Church forme of the institution of Christ by virtue whereof they should make up one instituted Church for the end and purpose of the celebration of the Ordinances of the Gospell therein If he suppose he can prove the contrary let him cease from cavilling at words and by expressions which is a facile taske for any man to engage in and no way usefull but to make controversies endlesse and answer my Reasons against it which here he passeth over and produce his testimonies and arguments for that purpose This triviall ventilation of particular passages cut off from their influence into the whole is not worth a nut-shell but is a businesse fit for them who have nothing else to employ themselves about Coming to consider the union that I assigne to this Church after whose breach an enquiry is to be made which is the maine and only thing of his concernment as to the aime he hath proposed to himselfe he passeth it over very slightly taking no notice at all of my whole discourse frō p. 116. top 133. of my treatise wherein I disprove the pretensions of other things to be the union or bond of union to this church he fixes a very little while on what I assigne to be that union This I say is profession of the faith of the Gospell and subjection to Jesus Christ according to it to which he adds that they are bound to more then this viz to the exercise of the same specificall Ordinances as also to love one another to subjection to the same discipline and where it is possible to the exercise of the same numericall worship All this was expresly affirm'd by me before it is all virtually contained in their profession so far as the things mentioned are revealed in the Gospell only as to the celebrating of the same numericall Ordinances I cannot grant that they are obliged hereunto as formally considered members of that Church nor shall untill our Reverend Author shall think meet to prove that particular congregations are not the institutions of Jesus Christ But hereupon he affirms that that is a strange assertion used by me pa 117. namely that if there be not an institution of joining in the same numericall ordinances the union of this Church is not really a Church union This is no more but what was declared before nor more then what I urged the testimony of a learned Presbyterian for no more but this that the universality of Christians throughout the world are not under such an institution as that to assemble together for the celebration of the same numericall Ordinances the pretence of any such institution being supplied by Christ's acknowledged institutiō of particular Churches for that purpose What I have offered
in my Treatise as evidence that Protestants are not guilty of the breach of this union and that where any are their crime is not Schisme but Apostacy either as to profession or conversation I leave to the judgment of all candid sober and ingenious Readers for such as love strife and debates and disputes whereof the world is full I would crave of them that if they must chuse me for their Adversary they would allow me to answer in person vivâ voce to prevent this tedious trouble of writing which for the most part is fruitlesse and needlesse Some exceptions our Author laies in against the Properties of the profession by me required as necessary to the preservation of this union as to the first of professing all necessary saving Truths of the Gospell he excepts that the Apostles were ignorant of many necessary truths of the Gospell for a season and some had never heard of the holy Ghost Act. 29. and yet they kept the union of the Catholick Church And yet our Author before he closeth this chapter will charge the breach of this union on some whose errors cannot well be apprehended to lie in the deniall of any necessary truth of the Gospell that is indispensably necessary to salvation As to his instance of the Apostles he knows it is one thing not to know clearly and distinctly for some season some truths in hypothesi and another to deny them being sufficiently and clearly revealed in thesi and for those in the Acts it is probable they were ignorant of the dispensations of the holy Ghost with his marvelous effects under the Gospell rather then of the person of the holy Ghost for even in respect of the former it is absolutely said that the holy Ghost was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified I shall not pursue his other exceptions being sorry that his judgment leads him to make them that which alone beares any aspect to the business in hand he insists on pag. 99. in these words I have intimated and partly proved that there may be a breach of union with respect to the Catholick Church upon other considerations namely besides the renuntiation of the profession of the Gospell As first there is a bond that obliges every member of this Church to joine together in exercising the same Ordinances of worship when then any man shall refuse to joine with others or refuse others to joine with him here is a breach of love and union among the members of the Catholick Church and in the Particular Churches as parts of the Catholick The Reader must pardon me for producing and insisting on these things seeing I do it with this profession that I can fix on nothing else so much to the purpose in hand and yet how little these are so cannot but be evident upon a sleight view to the meanest capacities For 1. he tells us there may be a breach of union with respect to the Catholick church on other considerations not that there may be a breach of the uniō of the Catholick Church 2. That there is a bond binding men to the exercise of Ordinances so there is binding man to all holinesse and yet he denies the vilest profane persons to break that bond or this union 3. That there may be a breach of union among the members of the Church but who knows it not that knows all members of Particular Churches are also members of this church generall Our enquiry is after the union of the Catholick-Church visible what it is how broken and what the crime or evill is whereby it is broken what obligations lie on the members of that Church as they stand under any other formall consideration what is the evill they are any of them guiltie of in not answering these obligations we were not at all enquiring nor doth it in this place concerne us so to do And in what he afterwards tells us of some proceedings contrary to the practise of the universall Church she intends I suppose all the Churches in the worldj wherein the members of the universall Church have walked or do so for the universall Church as such hath no practice as to cecelebration of ordinances if he suppose it hath let him tell us what it is and when that practice was His appeale to the primitive believers and their small number will not availe him for although they should be granted to be the then Catholick visible Church against which he knowes what exceptions may be laid from the believers amongst the Jewes such as Cornelius to whom Christ had not as yet been preached as the Messiah come and exhibited yet as such they joined not in the celebration of ordinances but as yet they were as a particular congregation yea though all the Apostles were amongst them the foundation of all the Churches that afterwards were called He concludes this chapter with an exception to my assertion that if the Catholick Church be a politicall body it must have a visible politicall head which nothing but the Pope claimes to be Of this he saies 1. There is no necessity for saith he he confesses the common wealth of the Jews was a politicall body and God who is invisible was their politicall head 2. Jesus Christ is a visible head yea sometimes more visus seen of men whilst on earth though now for a time in majesty as some great Princes do he hath withdrawn himselfe from the sight of men on earth yet is he seen of Angels and Saints in heaven A. 1. I confesse God was the King and Ruler of the Jewes but yet that they might be a visible Politicall body the invisible God appointed to them under him a visible head as the Pope blasphemously pretends to be appointed under Jesus Christ 2. Jesus Christ is in his humane nature still visible as to his Person wherein he is the head of his Church he ever was and is still invisible His present absence is not upon the account of Majesty seeing in his majesty he is still present with us and as to his bodily absence he gives other accounts then that here insinuated Now it sufficeth not to constitute a visible politicall body that the head of it in any respect may be seen unlesse as that their head he is seen Christ is visible as this Church is visible He in his lawes in his word that in its profession in its obedience But I marvell that our Reverend Author thus concluding for Christ to be the politicall head of this Church as a Church should at the same time contend for such subjects of this head as he doth p. 96. namely persons contradicting their profession of the knowledge of God by a course of wickedness manifesting principles of profaneness wherewith the beliefe of the truth they profess hath an absolute inconsistency as I expresly describe the persons whose membership in this church and relation thereby to Christ their head he pleads for Are indeed these persons any better thēMahumetans as