Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	communion_n	particular_a	schism_n	3,730	5	9.9397	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A78005	A vindication of Mr Burroughes, against Mr Edwards his foule aspersions, in his spreading Gangræna, and his angry Antiapologia. Concluding with a briefe declaration what the Independents would have. / By Jer: Burroughes.	Burroughs, Jeremiah, 1599-1646.	1646 (1646)	Wing B6126; Thomason E345_14; ESTC R200993	27,250	36

where they live because of the Ceremonies and subjection to Bishops were they all Schismaticks too Doe not men ordinarily in London and elsewhere for the outward advantage of trade or otherwise leave one Church and goe to another and may not a man for any advantage of enjoyment of Ordinances that he cannot have in the Church he formerly lived in not in that purity but that it will be sinne in him to continue in it remove to another Church and what if his dwelling be not removed to the other side of the street does that make it Schisme Many of the converted Jewes were a great while in Church-Communion before they saw their liberty to converse with the Gentiles though converted also it was their fault that they would not joyne with the Gentiles being Christians the partition wall being broken downe yet they were never accounted Schismatiques for this fault of theirs whereas now if a man lives in a parish and does not joyn in Church fellowship in that parish he is branded for a Schismatique What hurt the abuse of words and among others this of Schisme hath done in the Church we all know When men who give good testimony of their godlinesse and peaceablenesse after all meanes used in faithfulnesse to know the mind of Christ they cannot without sin to them though it be through weaknesse enjoy all the ordinances of Christ and partake in all the duties of Worship as members of that Congregation where their dwelling is they therefore in all humility and meeknesse desire they may not live without the ordinances of Christ all their dayes but for the enjoyment of them may joyne in another Congregation yet so as not condemning those Churches they joyne not with as false but still preserve all Christian communion with the Saints as members of the same body of Christ of the Church Catholique and joyn also with them in all duties of worship that belong to particular Churches so far as they are able If this be called Schisme it is more then yet I have learned or then I beleeve M. Edwards can teach me Page 98. he throwes me his glove challenging me into the field to try his valour with me in this point Ans When I have a mind to play at Brawle and Wrangle I will take up his glove He hath given an experiment of his wrangling faculty in the maintenance of the charge he gives me of being guilty of the 150. Error mentioned in the first part of his Gangraena namely Whatsoever errors or miscarriages in Religion the Church should beare withall in men continuing them still in communion with them these the Magistrate should beare with continuing them in the Kingdome or Common-wealth in the enjoyment of the liberty of subjects this with M. Edwards is a huge error Whereas he passes almost all his other errors without any animadversion he must needs have one here he cannot passe so foule an error as this without confuting it presently see what his Confutation is Those sayes he who out of conscience are not satisfyed in taking up Armes against Armies raised by a Prince the Church will not deale with for this but the Magistrate may To this M. John Goodwin answered that I before had said that in matters of civil justice between man and man there the plea of conscience would not free a man from punish-went if he offends but for matters of Religion there what ever charge the Magistrate hath over men it is not more then the charge the Church hath in its kind therefore where the Church should beare with men the Magistrate should Now the man comes in with his refutation and instances in a businesse of taking up Armes as if this did not come under the Head spoken of before namely the matters of civil justice not a matter of Religion as distinct from civil justice and his Reply is onely this as if an erroneous conscience did not make things the Magistrate accounts matters of State matters of Religion and the Magistrate also reckon many things to be matters of State which many consciences account high matters in Religion Ans What a bable is this who would spend his time in replying to it If M. Edwards his valour in dispute may be judged by this we need never feare encountring with him I say that in matters of Religion as distinct from matters of civil justice there the Magistrates power extends not beyond the Churches and he comes and tells us that an erroneous conscience may account matters of State matters of Religion what then if he accounts them to be matters of Religion does this alter the nature of the thing what ever he accounts yet if he does offend against civill justice he is to be punished and whatsoever the Magistrate accounts yet if the thing in its owne nature be not against civill justice but onely against some rule of Religion surely he is not to punish in his way further then the Church may in her way who speaks of what one man accounts or what another man accounts the things must be judged according to what they are in their owne nature if M. Edwards his threatning Peece doe no better feats then his Animadversion and Reply to M. John Goodwin hath done that which he judges an Error remaines still a Truth he must blot it out of his Catalogue of Errors his conscience must tell him there is one Error lesse then his reckoning but I would be loth to be writing or waiting till Master Edwards his conscience be convinced or if it be till he confesses it to be There is onely one passage more that I shall need to take notice of in his last Book and something he hath of it in his former namely my conformity in the Bishops times This conformity he speaks of was ten yeeres since and though I did conforme to some of the old Ceremonies in which I acknowledge my sinne I doe not cast those things off as inconvenient or discountenanced by the State onely but as sinfull against Christ yet I think there can hardly be found any Man in that Diocesse where I was who was so eyed as I was that did conforme lesse then I did if he conformed at all As for the new conformity God kept me from it and my sinne in the old makes me to be of the more forbearing spirit towards those who now differ from me I see now what I did not and I blesse God I saw it before the times changed and others even some who scorne at new light must acknowledge they see now what a while since they saw not why then should they or I fly upon our Brethren because they see not what we think we see Oh how unbeseeming is it for such who conformed to old and new Ceremonies now to be harsh and bitter in the least degree against their Brethren who differ from them when they doe differ so much from what they were themselves but a while since I some of them

they will lye right enough as they have done to many Presbyteriall Brethren Although nothing under heaven would more rejoyce me then to help to find out any expedient whereby I might agree with my Brethren who are for the Classicall and Provinciall Presbyteries yet I must needs professe that all that I have hitherto heard in the Assembly or elsewhere after I hope sincere labouring with my heart and with God that I might know his truth hath not shaken nor caused any Scruple in those Principles my conscience hath beene engaged in against the extending that ruling power of Pastors and Teachers our Brethren challenge beyond their charge of feeding by the Word and Sacraments And though I be in Mr. Edwards his thoughts the worst of all the Apologists when I am against him which I dare not gainesay yet when I doe any thing that pleases him then he calls me a chiefe man among the dissenting Brethren as pag. 212. of his second part of his Gangraena where he cites my speech lately printed made in Guildhall for the Scots By which speech Mr. Edwards and all men may see that difference in judgement hinders not me from giving that honour to men that God would have given them neither takes it off my heart from them But am I of the same minde still Ans Whatsoever change there may be yet the difference of our judgements in point of Presbytery makes not the change for I then apprehended them at as great a distance from me in that as now I doe But still I doe and cannot but as long as I live honour them and blesse God for them as the great instruments of the first turne of the streame of oppression and Tyrannie whatever becomes of me I have learned to honour those whom God honours Let me have the same principles that then I went upon which in me are not changed I could make such another speech for them What should I follow this vaine man in any farther particulars both in his last and in his former books he vents a very angry spirit against me though never provoked by me which I have often wondered at why man what is the matter what have I done what comes it to more then the old non-conformists not communicating with the Churches here because they could not joyne in kneeling their scruple lay in one thing mine in another But though many of our Brethren thought and I beleeve still doe thinke they were in an error yet their spirits were calme and quiet towards them What is it that raises the wind against me and others suppose we be in an error except it be the hope that these men have of having power in their owne hands which formerly they had not I have hitherto abstained from that which is most provoking What have I then done that thus angers the man He is displeased that I preach so much that I have so many Lectures I will not tell of the Livings preferments Sequestrations Lectures that those of the Presbyteriall judgement have What would he have mee lay downe a Lecture and gather a Church This would anger him more Though I sought none of those I have yet I was not unwilling to yeeld to Gods call in the desires of the people opening such a doore of service though the continuance of the greatnesse of the work was like to be beyond my strength because to speak plainly I saw such a spirit working that I feared the door for my preaching would ere long be shut this made me to cast my selfe upon God for strength to doe as much work as possibly I could in the time when opportunity was continued and I could tell sad stories that would make others think as I did He is troubled at the Meanes I have though it be much lesse then he mentions and as at great an uncertainty as may be if men be taxed for any thing more then they like they know where to relieve themselves in withdrawing from such contributions if any weaknesse of body hinders the continuance in the greatnesse of the labour the meanes presently ceases yet I have no reason to complaine But this I say if ever I grow rich by commings in for preaching let me lye under censures as absurd as M. Edwards himselfe can devise But it may be he is angry with me because though my practice offends him not so much as others yet I countenance and plead for those whom he cryes out against as Schismatiques Ans I professe as in the presence of God that upon the most serious examination of my heart I find in it that were my judgement Presbyteriall yet I should preach and plead as much for the forbearance of Brethren differing from me not onely in their judgement but in their practice as I have ever done therefore if I should turne a Presbyterian I feare I should trouble M. Edwards and some others more then now I doe perhaps my pleading and preaching for forbearance of dissenting Brethren would be of more force then now it is He and others make a great out-cry against Schisme they think and say that men leaving a true Church cannot be freed from the charge of Schisme To that I would onely say thus much Suppose the Non-conformists or those of the Scottish Nation who lived in the City in former times who could not acknowledge the Bishops authority nor communicate in the Sacraments in the parishes where they lived without sinne to them still acknowledging them to be true Churches yet if the Parliament had made an Act whereby they should have had two or three places in the City appointed for them wherein all that could not conforme to the Discipline then established should have had liberty to have had the Sacraments and other Church-Ordinances together in those places by themselves freed from the burden of Ceremonies and subjection to Episcopall Authority would they not have blessed God for this liberty had they been Schismatiques in the enjoyment of this liberty Certainly the allowance of the State will not alter the case if it be Schisme to doe thus without allowance of the State and venturing upon suffering it is Schisme when the State does allow it when they are freed from suffering Schisme is a Church sinne What ever offence against Order of State men may be charged with who gather thus without allowance of the State yet they are not therefore Schismatiques because they doe that without the allowance of the State which if the State did allow of would not be Schisme where the Lutherans Calvinists have liberty to live in one Country together and yet not communicating one with another are all the Lutherans or all the Calvinists Schismaticks Suppose the Greek Churches had liberty to live among us would they be all Schismaticks to us or should we be so to them Many of the French and Dutch Churches who live in our parishes though they understand our language well enough yet would not communicate in the parishes