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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	communion_n	particular_a	schism_n	3,730	5	9.9397	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A62859	An addition to the Apology for the two treatises concerning infant-baptisme, published December 15, 1645 in which the author is vindicated from 21 unjust criminations in the 92 page of the book of Mr. Robert Baille, minister of Glasgow, intituled Anabaptisme and sundry materiall points concerning the covenant, infants-interest in it, and baptisme by it, baptism by an unbaptized person, dipping, erastianism and church-government, are argued, in a letter, now enlarged, sent in September 1647, to him / by John Tombes . ..	Tombes, John, 1603?-1676.	1652 (1652)	Wing T1794; ESTC R11324	36,211	48

accomplishing what is my duty in this thing SECT. XIV Of the fourteenth Crimination That I am unwilling to join with any of the Anabaptists Churches and they unwilling to baptize non-members FOr he professeth an unwillingnesse to ●oine himself as a member to any of the Anobaptists Churches and I suppose they are unwilling to baptize any who will not joine in Communion with them And for proof of the former you referre the Reader to the letters K K page 112. at which you cite not as they are in my book some words of my Apology page 10. which neither as they are in mine or your book do prove my unwillingnesse to joine my self as a member to any of the Anabaptists Churches For a man may be willing to joine himself as a Member to any of the Anabaptists Churches and yet not dare to ga●her a separated Church not every one who joins as a member with a separated Church being guilty of a schisme which a gatherer of a separated Church may be guilty of Besides a man may not know how to justify at one time the practise of gathering a separated Church or joining with it who may know how to justify it at another time when there is no hope of reformation and men are judged hereticks and excommunicated for holding truth and doing their duty The seven dissenting brethren in the Assembly had subscribed with fourteen more of the ablest of the Assembly to certain considerations to disswade from further gathering of Churches in that present juncture of time to which my words you cite had reference who it may be now would not disswade from gathering Churches But the truth is my not daring to gather a separated Church then was my willingnesse to join with any Churches of Christ and I think as much ill will as you bear to them yet you will not dare to say that none of the Anabaptists Churches are Churches of Christ though I was not willing to be a separating member in any Church but willing to be a conjoined member with all the Churches of Christ in general and each in particular So farre is your allegation from proving what you charge me with that it proves the contrary And for that you say that you suppose the Anabaptists Churches are unwilling to baptize any who will not joine in communion with them if you meane thus they will not baptize any who will not joine in Communion with them as fixed members entring into the Covenant called Church-Covenant and professing the way of discipline called the Congregational way as the only way and separaring from any Church of Christ that is in any other way of discipline for not doing which it seems you conceive them unwilling to admit me to baptisme I have cause to think you are mistaken For having upon occasion of these your words written to an Elder of one of their Churches intreating him to consult with some others and to give me resolution in these questions 1. What joining in Communion do you require without which you will not b●ptize any 2. Whether on my profession of my repentance and ●aith in the Lord Jesue and readinesse to hold communion with all the Churches of Christ in the things of Christ though I do not promise to be a fixed member in any of their Congregations you would admit me to baptisme I received this following answer subscribed by three graduates in schooles godly and learned men in these words That which we require and without which we will not baptize any is a persons manifestation of himselfe to be a believer in Jesus Christ and to desire baptisme according to the revealed will of Christ and in obedience thereunto we do not baptize any into this or that particular congregation but only into that one body in general spoken of 1 Cor. 12. 13. As touching joining in communion we in this case require no more then a manifest readinesse to hold communion with all the Churches of Christ in the things of Christ and accordingly to shew a real willingnesse to have communion with any particular Church of Christ according as the hand of God shall give opportunity and true seasonablenesse of and for the same Thus we judge and practise accordingly Benjamen Cox Henry Jesse Hanserd Knollys I do testifie the substance hereof to be the professed judgement of that congregation whereto I am joined and also that congregation where Mr. Kiffin Patient and Spilsbery are joined who did affirm so much to be their own judgement also The Scripture upon which we so practise is that Acts 8. 37 38. Hanserd Knollys SECT. XV Of the fifteenth Crimination of my allowing frequent rebaptization SEcondly when a man is baptized according to his own minde he allowes him to be oft thereafter rebaptized even so oft as he repents for sin which by the godly is done as the least ought to be done oftener then once And in the margin and the table at the end of your book He allowes a frequent rebaptizing and for proof you referre your Reader to the letters L L page 112. and there you send your Reader back to the letter C supr● Now after you had said but to put the equity of this reproof out of doubt their great Patrons now are come to defend the lawfulnesse of baptisme not onely twice but if ye will ten times yea so oft as you repent for sin which ought to be oftner then once a day So of Anabaptists they become Hemerobaptists and more for proof of this you refer the Reader to the letter C and there you alledge one passage in my Examen page 23. and another passage in my Apology page 53. and a relation of unnamed Eminent Divines It is true that to shew the unreasonable dealing of those that made rebaptization an heresie I did intreate one good argument to prove it unlawful in se for a man that hath been baptized rightly to be baptized againe and to shew the weaknesse of the arguments brought to prove it unlawful in se to rebaptize I breiefly answered the two chief the latter wherof seems to be that upon which the Assembly rested in that they alledge to prove this proposition The Sacrament of baptisme is but once to be administred to any person onely the text Tit. 3. 5. where God is said to save us by the washing of regeneration Advice for confession of faith chap. 28 art 7. And then I added that if there were as good example for Paedobaptisme as that of Acts 19. 5 6. for rebaptizing the controversie concerning Paedobaptisme were at an end with me In which passage I did not assert the proof to be good for rebaptizing but compared with the proof for Paedobaptisme to be better that is more probable then the other and such as if I had had but the like for Paedobaptisme I had not moved any more about it Which I wrote because I knew that very many writers both antient and latter do very probably from expresse

it happen that any such facts be perpe●rated as are like to that of the incestuous person I doubt not but the whole Church may and ought to disclaime the person so offending and to exclude him from all brotherly Communion because I conceive so much was done to the incestuous person as I gather from 2 Cor. 2. 6 7. So that my doubt was not of suspension for any but for every emergent scandal for which the Assembly were so earnest with the Parliament Many scandals there are in abuse of liberty in things indifferent in sins of evil councel and example which may happen through strength of temptation by infirmity in men not habitually vicio●s which are not of that hainous nature as to deserve keeping from the Lords Table Nor doth the Scripture either prescribe such a thing to be done or give power to do it I like not Doctor Ames his determination lib. 4. de conscientiac 29. num 7. Proprium adaequatum ob●e●●um hu●●s censurae est scandalum datum ●fratre which I imagine was the cause of the Assembly's mistake upon which they petitioned SECT. XIX Of the nineteenth Crimination of me that I hold no censure of Fexcommunication YOu further charge me as avowing also that there is no such thing as any censure of Excommunicatior and for proof you referre your Reader to the letters O O where is cited one or two passages of my Apology page 91. in neither of which do I avow any thing but my doubt which is of 5. things whereof one is whether ever Excommunication a sacris that is as I after expresse my self ●uridical forensica ●●horitative Excommunication by some officers or the whole congregation as superiou●s that have jurisdiction without special gift as the Apostles had would be proved to be ●ure divino by Christs appointment And I confesse I have still the same doubt notwithstanding what I have read in Mr. Rutherford Mr. Gillespy or any other And I should be willing to be resolved how citing to appear by power of office keeping Courts or Assemblies requiring persons yea of all sorts and qualities to answer as before Judges examining witnesses hearing causes passing sentence inflicting so great a punishment as Excommunication without liberty of Appeale if by a national Assembly of Elders on ministers and people even the chiefest not as Arbitrators to whom the parties referre the matter but as Ecclesiastical Officers to whose judgement they must stand whether they will or no will be acquitted from that dominion condemned Lu. 22. 25 26. Mat. 20. 26. Mar. 10. 42 43 1 Pet. 5. 2 3. as the Assertors of the Presbyterian discipline expound the texts against the Prelates what dominion more like the heathen the Prelates take upon them then such an Assembly and whether the Prelates against whom you pleade may not acquit their Prelacy which they claime from the dominion you charge them with out of these texts of Scripture as well as you But in this I do not avow there is no such thing as any censure of Excommunitation as you accuse me yea I do expressely grant a social medicinal Excommunication by the whole Church from all brotherly communion with the whole and by each member from arbitrary communion with himself provided they do not rashly or unjustly exclude And this I gather from 1 Cor. 5. 9 10 11. 2 Thess. 3. 6 14 15. and other places as in my Apology page 93. may be seen And I think the Congregational way in this nearer to the use of Excommunication in Scripture then the Presbyterian though I think they misse in two things 1. That they make it an act of superiority and jurisdiction or as they speak of the power of the keyes in the whole Church over the person censured 2. They ascribe this power only to that particular congregation of which the offender is a fixed member which I conceive common to any other Church or brother in another Congregation and is in effect nothing else but the non-non-communion which they ascribe to one Church towards another Nor do I conceive what other Excommunication Christians could in the primitive times exercise or did exercise one towards another when Victor Bishop of Rome would have excommunicated Polycrates Bishop of Ephesus or the Western the Eastern Church about Easter or Stephanus of Rome Firmilianus Bishop of Caesarca in Cappadocia holding with Cyprian about rebaptization of persons baptized by heretiques then this non-non-communion And for the texts Mat. 16. 19. Mat. 18. 16 17 18. I am not yet moved from the interpretation I gave in my Apology page 91. but rather conceive that I can prove it true notwithstanding what I have read hitherto to the contrary SECT. XX Of the twentieth Crimination that I hold Christ hath not appointed any particular government for his Church YOu say further That Christ hath not appointed any particular government for his Church and for proof hereof you referre the Reader to the letters P P at which you cite two passages of my Apology page 91. 93. of which neither sayes the thing you charge me with the former onely making two things according to my conceit prudencial to wit the Independency or Dependency and the fixednesse or moveablenesse of Pastors and Congregations In the other I acknowledged a discipline proper to the Church and shewed what it was And therefore you do manifestly wrong me in saying I avow a particular governmen● when my words expressely yield the contrary onely I said I suppose the manner of doing the thing is left to prudence that is by whom when in what order evils committed should be examined the persons charged admonished avoided which I think you will not deny Surely you will be hard put to it to prove out of Scripture the particularities of your or any other discipline To tell you my minde yet more plainly the word government comes from the Greeke {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} now {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} saith Suidas he that guides ●●ship by steering it Being applied to men I conceive government is either by counsel directing admonishing reproving in words or actions as by shewing favour or dislike in lookes embracing or shunning company c. giving example c. or by giving lawes and inflicting punishments or giving rewards I conceive Christ hath not left a particular government for his Church the latter way but referres that unto himself but in the former way he hath in the hands of some Officers whom he hath made as Stewards in his house whose government consists chiefely in declaring the will of Christ convincing gain-sayers ordaining Pastors to teach and declaring ●alse teachers to be shunned and such like offices but for the juridical government mentioned before I find it not appointed them by Christ I like H●●romes expression on Tit. 1. That the Churches co●muni presbyt●r●●●● consilie cura solicitudine not imperio guvernabantur and I like Salmasi●● his observation in his

Apparatus de primatu Papae pag. 148. 〈◊〉 primatu Papae part 1. cap. 1. that the government of the Church is {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} ●urati● over-sight not potestas magistracy empire And this me thinks best suites with the Scriptures 1 Thess. 5. 12. 1 Tim. 3. 5. Heb. 13. 7 17. 1 Peter 5. 2 3. SECT. XXI Of the one twentieth Crimination that I hold that the government of the Church belongs to the Magistrate onely YOu add further that I say that the governing of the Church belongs to the Magistrate onely and to such whom he appoints to that service by vertue of a Commission flowing from himself And for proofe hereof you referre the Reader to the letters q q page 113. where you cite a passage out of my Apology page 93 which hath not a word of that you charge me with but onely a declaration of my opinion in point of prudence that the not devolving so much jurisdiction as some desire on a Presbytery doth not so much disadvantage the Church as some conceive for reformation of manners but onely for suppressing the dissenters in opinion who are for the most part the most consciencious and right-hearted For usually the ruling Elders are Magistrates or both teaching and ruling Elders are chosen and act according to their minde and serve their ends And therefore if the Christian Magistrate be good there 's no great losse to the Church concerning the reforming of vicious manners though he Presbytery have not such power as some desire if bad little is done by the Presbytery And for errors in opinion they are scarce ever amended by bare Excommunication for that if there be any number of dissenters doth but usually produce a schisme but by teaching and cleering truth with meeknesse and forbearance one towards another and a freedome to debate things in Synods which is I suppose the proper use of them and not to determine things and impose lawes the persons censured being never heard This I said to allay the heate of men in engaging a Kingdome to warre upon such a cause But because this is onely a point of prudence from experience I leave this to be considered by those that are better acquainted with humane affaires then I am The thing you charge me with is no where asserted by me and therefore in this you also charge me falsely SECT. XXII Of my new way and boldnesse THere are some other things in your book wherein you abuse me as pag. 91. in your margine and table when you put Mr. ●ombes new way and when you say that at this time when so many new waies are in hand I have thought meet to make a hotch-potch of many of them together which is a meer reproachful or scoffical calumny as if what I wrote I did it out of a designe to make a new way of mine own Whereas what I have said I was necessitated to it as I shew in my Apology and was done in pursuance of the Covenant and should have been taken with the right hand by men that are desirous to find out truth especially from one that you term learned and with all his strength and greater diligence then any before him hath sifted a point As for my boldnesse I confesse God hath in mercy to me put more boldnesse and courage into me in this matter then either agrees with my natural complexion or the state of my affaires But if you mean by saying that I am a very bold man that I am one that is of an audacious disposition to be a ringleader in a faction or an attempter of a desperate designe or in any other bad sense which it 's likely you mean you are deceived it being trueth which makes me bold which I am the more bold to avouch to be so because having tryed your strength with my other Antagonists I find that you defend that which I impugne by meer sleights SECT. XXIII Of my silence concerning DIPPING and of the novelty and insufficiency of SPRINKLING instead of baptizing YOu say that you have marked nothing to fall from my pen for the rite of dipping or against the custome of sprinkling And in the margine and the able at the end of your book you say He is a rigid Antipaed●baptist but not against sprinkling But this is more then you could infer from this that I meddle not with this controversy in my writings But though I say nothing there 's enough to be found of that innovation of sprinkling in all sorts of authors Mede in his Diatribe or discourse on Tit. 3. 5. I ●dd● because perhaps some mens fancies are corrupted therewith that there was no such thing as sprinkling or {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} used in baptism in the Apostles times nor many ages after them and therefore it is no way probable that {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} in St. Peter should have any reference to the Laver of bapt●sm Salmasius Appar. ad librum de primatu Papae pag. 192. Non enim id {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} est quo hodie infantes initiant non mersio non t●●ctio non lot● non lava●rum nec {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} ut etiam Graeci vocant vox Baptismi Graece significat sed {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} aspersio vel infu●●o aquae The like is in his Epistle ad Colvium pag. 669. Ancient and later writers do generally avouch John Baptists and the Apostles and Ancients use for many hundreds of yeares to have been by dipping or 〈◊〉 under water Salmasius Apparat. ad librum de primatu Papae pag. 193. Tempore Hieronymi omnes Ecclesiae hunc morem observ●bant in baptismo ut ter Caput sub aqua mergerent quibus id sacramentum dabatur Aquinas 3. part 〈◊〉 66. art 7. Tutius est baptizare per modom immer●●onis quia hoc habet communior usus Chanier panstrat Cathol. tom. 4 lib. 5. c. 2. sect. 6. Caeterùm in usu●lementi abinitio immersionem fuisse totius corporis quae vis est {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} unde Joannes baptizabat in flumine deinde tamen mutatam in asse● sionem incertum quando aut unde●f●cto init●o c. The manner of dipping plunging or immersion under water is agreeable to the relations M●● 3. 16. John 3. 23. Acts 8. 38 39. It is acknowledged to be alluded to by Paul Rom. 6. 3 4. by the new Annot. there By Calvin in John 3. 22 23. A Joanne et Christo celebratum Baptismum fuisse totius corporis submersione Calv. in Act. 8. 38. To tum corpus in aquam mergebart Mr. Daniel Rog●r●in Treatise of two Sacraments part 1. chap. 5. 2. Edit. page 77. saith The Greek Tongue wants not words to expresse any o●●er act as well as Dipping if the i●stitution could beare it And sur the Lord meant not that the infant should be sprinckled onely but