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church_n communion_n member_n separation_n 3,098 5 9.7439 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A41388 Firmianus and Dubitantius, or, Certain dialogues concerning atheism, infidelity, popery, and other heresies and schisme's that trouble the peace of the church and are destructive of primitive piety written in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians / by Tho. Good. Good, Thomas, 1609-1678. 1674 (1674) Wing G1029; ESTC R23950 83,883 174

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tender_a conscience_n and_o the_o occasion_n of_o many_o sh●rp_a contention_n among_o christian_n agree_v in_o the_o substantial_o of_o religion_n and_o see_v that_o conformist_n themselves_o confess_v they_o not_o to_o be_v in_o their_o own_o nature_n necessary_a but_o only_o expedient_a for_o order_n and_o decency_n be_v it_o not_o better_o they_o be_v lay_v aside_o then_o continue_v be_v they_o be_v the_o perpetual_a cause_n of_o discord_n and_o dissension_n among_o we_o firm._n and_o be_v order_n decency_n and_o uniformity_n without_o which_o there_o will_v be_v neither_o ●ove_n peace_n or_o unity_n su●h_v inconsiderable_a nothing_o that_o a_o few_o innocent_a ceremony_n must_v be_v utter_o abollish_v to_o gratify_v the_o dogmatize_v humour_n of_o those_o man_n who_o esteem_v thing_n in_o themselves_o indifferent_a to_o be_v sinful_a and_o unlawful_a which_o be_v s●●t_a superstition_n it_o be_v indeed_o much_o to_o be_v lament_v that_o we_o shall_v quarrel_v about_o mint_n and_o cummin_n to_o the_o prejudice_n of_o more_o weighty_a and_o material_a duty_n and_o the_o scandal_n of_o our_o religion_n but_o by_o reason_n of_o our_o innate_a and_o acquit_v corruption_n it_o be_v necessary_a that_o offence_n shall_v come_v yet_o woe_n be_v unto_o that_o man_n by_o who_o they_o come_v i_o know_v weakness_n and_o renderness_n of_o conscience_n be_v much_o pretend_v and_o we_o ought_v to_o take_v heed_n how_o we_o offend_v any_o of_o christ_n little_a one_o but_o how_o can_v these_o man_n be_v reckon_v in_o the_o number_n of_o weak_a or_o little_a one_o who_o seem_v to_o themselves_o so_o great_a so_o strong_a and_o able_a in_o the_o thing_n of_o religion_n and_o for_o their_o tenderness_n of_o conscience_n we_o appeal_v to_o their_o bloody_a civil_a war_n it_o be_v well_o know_v by_o who_o and_o how_o they_o be_v begin_v and_o carry●d_v on_o till_o at_o length_n they_o come_v up_o to_o the_o death_n of_o the_o king_n though_o i_o believe_v very_o much_o against_o 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because_o of_o personal_a abuse_n in_o the_o governor_n or_o under_o officer_n where_o the_o government_n in_o '_o its_o constitution_n be_v not_o faulty_a neither_o the_o term_n of_o communion_n intolerable_a but_o be_v there_o any_o reason_n that_o nonconformist_n shall_v be_v more_o sharp_o deal_v with_o then_o debauch_v profane_a person_n firm._n if_o we_o shall_v compare_v schism_n separation_n nonconformity_n with_o profaneness_n it_o will_v not_o be_v easy_a to_o say_v which_o be_v the_o great_a or_o which_o be_v the_o least_o sin_n the_o first_o may_v be_v majoris_fw-la culpae_fw-la the_o other_o majoris_fw-la infamiae_fw-la as_o aquinas_n right_o judge_v 1.2_o q._n 73._o a._n 5._o of_o carnal_a and_o spiritual_a sin_n those_o as_o pride_n and_o malice_n be_v great_a sin_n but_o these_o as_o drunkenness_n fornication_n be_v more_o scandalous_a but_o to_o wave_v the_o comparison_n and_o to_o give_v you_o free_o my_o own_o sentiment_n in_o this_o particular_a i_o do_v conceive_v that_o debauchery_n and_o profaneness_n aught_o to_o be_v more_o severe_o punish_v then_o negative_a separation_n and_o simple_a nonconformity_n my_o reason_n be_v these_o 1._o every_o prudent_a parent_n will_v be_v mo●e_n severe_a against_o a_o wicked_a child_n that_o continue_v under_o his_o roof_n profess_v obedience_n a●d_a subjection_n then_o against_o that_o child_n which_o have_v utter_o forsake_v his_o father_n and_o utter_o abandon_v his_o house_n and_o family_n 2._o the_o sin_n of_o pro●●ness_n and_o debauchery_n be_v wilful_a for_o drunkard_n and_o profane_a person_n do_v not_o ple●d_a ignorance_n and_o weakness_n be_v o●●_n more_o malignant_a nature_n than_o sin_n of_o ignoranc●_n though_o it_o be_v such_o a_o ignorance_n which_o be_v not_o all_o together_o invincible_a but_o contract_v by_o pride_n pevishness_n interest_n or_o prejudice_n under_o which_o many_o separatist_n and_o nonconformist_n be_v in_o bondage_n and_o captivity_n 3._o the_o life_n and_o conversation_n 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faith_n and_o manner_n for_o that_o of_o faith_n which_o be_v brief_o comprehend_v in_o the_o apostle_n creed_n or_o any_o other_o doctrinal_a point_n contain_v in_o holy_a scripture_n express_o or_o by_o good_a consequence_n deduce_v from_o thence_o by_o the_o general_a consent_n of_o father_n we_o allow_v of_o but_o as_o for_o popish_a addition_n of_o new_a atticle_n by_o pope_n pius_n the_o 4._o and_o the_o council_n of_o tr●nt_n that_o be_v against_o scripture_n and_o can_v never_o be_v justify_v by_o the_o general_a consent_n of_o the_o ancient_a doctor_n of_o the_o church_n we_o reject_v as_o false_a and_o consequent_o not_o holy_a this_o i_o suppose_v you_o will_v demonstrate_v when_o you_o please_v to_o give_v i_o the_o reason_n which_o make_v you_o forsake_v the_o present_a church_n of_o rome_n as_o to_o their_o sanctity_n of_o manner_n their_o
to_o the_o sight_n the_o smell_n the_o taste_n shall_v we_o think_v that_o the_o god_n of_o truth_n give_v to_o m●n_z five_z scence_z to_o deceive_v 4_o of_o they_o by_o one_o pretend_a miracle_n or_o that_o it_o be_v his_o method_n to_o inform_v the_o mind_n by_o imposture_n if_o one_o or_o two_o or_o three_o sense_n may_v be_v deceive_v why_o not_o all_o then_o what_o will_v become_v of_o rome_n oral_a tradition_n for_o may_v not_o the_o ear_n be_v deceive_v as_o well_o as_o the_o eye_n the_o nose_n the_o taste_n the_o touch_n here_o be_v 4_o sense_n to_o one_o against_o that_o tradition_n and_o then_o how_o be_v the_o papi_v certain_a of_o what_o they_o have_v receive_v from_o the_o present_a church_n or_o how_o be_v she_o certain_a of_o what_o she_o receive_v from_o the_o church_n immediate_o before_o she_o be_v not_o the_o doctrine_n of_o transubstantiation_n which_o teach_v man_n not_o to_o believe_v their_o eye_n and_o other_o of_o their_o sense_n a_o ready_a way_n to_o atheism_n and_o infidelity_n for_o if_o four_o of_o the_o five_o sense_n may_v be_v deceive_v then_o farewell_o all_o tradition_n and_o if_o these_o inferior_a faculty_n may_v be_v thus_o baffle_v what_o satisfaction_n can_v it_o have_v be_v to_o st._n thomas_n that_o christ_n be_v true_o rise_v from_o the_o dead_a by_o put_v his_o finger_n into_o the_o print_n of_o the_o nail_n or_o his_o hand_n into_o his_o side_n but_o beside_o what_o sense_n and_o reason_n witness_v against_o this_o monstrous_a opinion_n the_o scripture_n be_v clear_o opposite_a unto_o it_o for_o christ_n at_o the_o institution_n of_o this_o sacrament_n do_v not_o take_v his_o own_o body_n into_o his_o hand●_n but_o bread_n he_o break_v not_o his_o own_o body_n but_o bread_n he_o do_v not_o eat_v his_o own_o body_n he_o do_v not_o drink_v his_o own_o blood_n but_o he_o drink_v of_o the_o fruit_n of_o the_o vine_n mat._n 26.29_o for_o so_o he_o call_v it_o after_o consecration_n and_o distribution_n i_o will_v not_o drink_v henceforth_o of_o the_o fruit_n of_o the_o vine_n etc._n etc._n in_o like_a manner_n st._n paul_n it_o be_v still_o this_o bread_n and_o this_o cup._n 1._o cor._n 11.26_o when_o our_o saviour_n say_v hoc_fw-la est_fw-la corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la what_o do_v hoc_fw-la stand_v for_o either_o it_o must_v signify_v this_o thing_n in_o my_o hand_n i._n e._n the_o bread_n or_o else_o his_o own_o body_n which_o body_n he_o hold_v in_o his_o hand_n utter_v these_o word_n hoc_fw-la est_fw-la corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la that_o be_v corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la est_fw-la corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la a_o mere_a identical_a trifle_a proposition_n which_o according_a to_o all_o logic_n be_v most_o absurd_a and_o destroy_v the_o very_a nature_n of_o a_o sacrament_n which_o consist_v of_o two_o essential_a part_n the_o sign_n and_o the_o thing_n signify_v beside_o they_o of_o rome_n con●ess_n that_o the_o body_n of_o christ_n be_v not_o present_a under_o the_o species_n of_o bread_n and_o wine_n when_o the_o priest_n begin_v to_o pronounce_v hoc_fw-la nor_o till_o he_o have_v utter_v the_o last_o syllable_n um_o hoc_fw-la est_fw-la corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la such_o poor_a shift_n these_o man_n be_v force_v to_o use_v as_o for_o antiquity_n so_o much_o boast_v of_o by_o those_o of_o rome_n i_o know_v that_o some_o of_o the_o father_n to_o draw_v man_n mind_n from_o the_o earthly_a element_n to_o heavenly_a mystery_n use_v now_o and_o then_o high_a rhetorical_a expression_n never_o dream_v of_o any_o substantial_a change_n of_o the_o element_n into_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n as_o be_v evident_a from_o iraeneus_n panis_n communis_fw-la post_fw-la consecrationem_fw-la non_fw-la est_fw-la amplius_fw-la panis_fw-la communis_fw-la sed_fw-la efficitur_fw-la eucharistia_n quae_fw-la constat_fw-la ex_fw-la duabus_fw-la naturis_fw-la terrenâ_fw-la &_o cael●sti_fw-la haec_fw-la oblatio_fw-la ●st_fw-la figura_fw-la corporis_fw-la &_o sanguinis_fw-la christi_fw-la ambrose_n 1._o ad_fw-la cor._n cap._n 11._o &_o lib._n 4._o de_fw-fr sacram._n non_fw-la dubitavit_fw-la dominus_fw-la dicere_fw-la hoc_fw-la est_fw-la corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la cum_fw-la dedit_fw-la fignum_fw-la svi_fw-la corporis_fw-la aug_n epist_n 23._o ad_fw-la bonifa_n &_o 12._o cap._n contra_fw-la adiman_n hoc_fw-la est_fw-la corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la i._n e._n typus_fw-la corporis_fw-la mei_fw-la ter●ull_a panem_fw-la &_o vinum_fw-la appellatione_fw-la corporis_fw-la &_o sanguinis_fw-la honoravit_fw-la non_fw-la naturam_fw-la quidem_fw-la mutans_fw-la sed_fw-la naturae_fw-la gratiam_fw-la adjiciens_fw-la theod._n dial_n 1._o &_o 2._o in_o a_o word_n the_o ancient_a father_n who_o oppose_v the_o eutychian_a haeresy_n do_v make_v use_n of_o the_o sacramental_a union_n of_o bread_n and_o wine_n to_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n show_v that_o the_o humane_a nature_n of_o christ_n be_v not_o more_o change_v into_o the_o divine_a then_o the_o sacramental_a bread_n and_o wine_n be_v into_o the_o very_a body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n therefore_o they_o believe_v no_o such_o thing_n as_o that_o monstrous_a popish_a transubstantiation_n so_o that_o we_o see_v the_o falsity_n and_o absurdity_n of_o it_o by_o scripture_n antiquity_n common_a sense_n and_o reason_n beside_o the_o great_a danger_n of_o idolatry_n in_o worship_v a_o piece_n of_o bread_n if_o there_o be_v no_o transubstantiation_n as_o some_o of_o the_o papist_n themselves_o confess_v and_o they_o also_o acknowledge_v that_o if_o the_o priest_n that_o consecrate_v be_v not_o right_o ordain_v or_o that_o he_o do_v not_o actual_o intend_v to_o consecrate_v or_o that_o he_o omit_v any_o one_o ceremony_n which_o they_o call_v necessary_a at_o the_o time_n of_o consecration_n that_o the_o bread_n and_o wine_n be_v not_o due_o consecrate_a and_o consequent_o no_o transubstantiation_n and_o therefore_o great_a probability_n that_o the_o papist_n in_o worship_v the_o host_n do_v frequent_o commit_v the_o very_a great_a sin_n of_o idolatry_n which_o be_v to_o i_o one_o great_a reason_n of_o forsake_v their_o communion_n firm._n true_o it_o be_v a_o substantial_a reason_n and_o such_o a_o one_o that_o have_v wrought_v upon_o other_o beside_o yourself_o however_o i_o desire_v to_o hear_v from_o you_o what_o further_a reason_n you_o have_v to_o leave_v the_o church_n of_o rome_n dub._n the_o next_o which_o i_o shall_v acquaint_v you_o with_o be_v the_o half_a communion_n so_o manifest_o against_o scripture_n and_o antiquity_n our_o bless_a saviour_n at_o the_o instituition_n of_o the_o sacrament_n command_v drink_v you_o all_o of_o this_o whereas_o at_o the_o give_v of_o the_o bread_n he_o say_v only_o take_v eat_v foresee_v and_o obviate_a this_o grand_a error_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n it_o be_v true_a the_o person_n then_o communicate_v be_v only_o his_o disciple_n which_o have_v receive_v their_o commission_n to_o preach_v the_o gospel_n before_o that_o time_n but_o not_o in_o that_o ample_a and_o full_a manner_n as_o they_o receive_v it_o after_o his_o resurrection_n as_o be_v plain_a from_o john_n 20_o 22_o 23._o and_o m●t._n 28_o 29._o but_o be_v it_o grant_v that_o they_o be_v all_o in_o full_a order_n and_o upon_o that_o account_n the_o cup_n be_v give_v they_o otherwise_o they_o shall_v not_o have_v receive_v it_o by_o the_o same_o reason_n the_o bread_n may_v be_v deny_v to_o the_o people_n because_o none_o but_o priest_n do_v then_o communicate_v but_o we_o know_v that_o a_o priest_n when_o he_o do_v not_o consecrate_v be_v in_o the_o place_n of_o a_o layman_n and_o consequent_o the_o disciple_n not_o consecrate_v at_o the_o supper_n be_v no_o better_o and_o therefore_o according_a to_o the_o doctrine_n and_o practice_v of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n shall_v not_o have_v receive_v the_o cup._n but_o what_o will_v they_o think_v of_o the_o whole_a church_n of_o corinth_n to_o who_o st._n paul_n send_v a_o first_o and_o second_o epistle_n they_o can_v imagine_v they_o be_v all_o priest_n observe_v then_o how_o ●e_n exhort_v all_o of_o they_o to_o examine_v themselves_o in_o order_n to_o the_o receive_n of_o the_o holy_a eucharist_n under_o both_o kind_n 1._o cor_fw-la 11._o this_o be_v so_o evident_a that_o our_o adversary_n have_n nothing_o to_o reply_v as_o for_o antiquity_n the_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v clear_o against_o it_o as_o jam_fw-la able_a to_o demonstrate_v from_o express_a testimony_n of_o the_o father_n but_o our_o learned_a writer_n have_v ●aved_v i_o that_o trouble_n those_o that_o please_v may_v peruse_v chami●re_o ch●mnitius_n jewel_n cracanthorp_n the_o confession_n of_o the_o council_n of_o co●stance_n stand_v as_o a_o last_a monument_n against_o the_o popish_a innovation_n in_o this_o particular_a the_o word_n be_v these_o we_o decree_v in_o like_a manner_n that_o though_o in_o the_o primitive_a church_n the_o holy_a eucharist_n be_v receive_v under_o both_o kind_n by_o the_o faithful_a yet_o this_o custom_n to_o avoid_v some_o danger_n and_o scandal_n be_v reasonable_o
swear_v by_o a_o good_a man_n by_o which_o it_o be_v evident_a how_o the_o gross_a superstition_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n have_v crooked_a silly_a soul_n and_o that_o all_o such_o image_n be_v teacher_n of_o lie_n very_a vanity_n as_o the_o scripture_n show_v and_o reason_n demonstrate_v for_o to_o say_v nothing_o of_o the_o blasphemous_a image_n of_o god_n the_o father_n and_o the_o holy_a trinity_n do_v not_o the_o image_n of_o any_o saint_n who_o these_o pseudo-catholicks_a worship_n lie_v to_o their_o imagination_n represent_v that_o which_o be_v not_o for_o nothing_o but_o the_o soul_n and_o spirit_n of_o those_o saint_n do_v now_o remain_v so_o that_o while_o they_o picture_n and_o worship_n they_o in_o bodily_a shape_n which_o picture_n represent_v what_o be_v not_o they_o worship_v they_o know_v not_o what_o pray_v only_o to_o the_o soul_n of_o saint_n yet_o phansy_v they_o in_o bodily_a shape_n as_o when_o they_o live_v here_o on_o earth_n how_o do_v it_o concern_v all_o serious_a christian_n to_o beware_v of_o the_o religious_a worship_n of_o any_o creature_n of_o god_n or_o man_n make_v of_o angel_n saint_n or_o image_n which_o be_v so_o express_o forbid_v in_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o sure_o if_o we_o may_v worship_v the_o picture_n of_o a_o man_n which_o be_v man_n creature_n it_o be_v much_o more_o rational_a to_o worship_v a_o true_a man_n yea_o the_o son_n moon_n and_o star_n and_o all_o th●_n host_n of_o heaven_n they_o be_v all_o of_o they_o the_o creature_n of_o almighty_a god_n firm._n you_o right_o conclude_v be_v not_o a_o judicial_a blindness_n upon_o the_o eye_n of_o our_o adversary_n they_o can_v not_o be_v guilty_a of_o so_o dangerous_a a_o suspicion_n dub._n i_o shall_v trouble_v you_o but_o with_o one_o reason_n more_o for_o my_o forsakeing_n the_o church_n of_o rome_n which_o be_v brief_o their_o prayer_n in_o a_o unknown_a tongue_n a_o practice_n manifest_o contrary_a to_o plain_a scripture_n and_o the_o ancient_a doctor_n of_o the_o church_n a_o most_o unreasonable_a service_n opposite_a to_o that_o which_o we_o be_v to_o perform_v to_o almighty_a god_n it_o be_v so_o baffle_v by_o st._n paul_n that_o all_o the_o learned_a ●en_n of_o the_o roman_a party_n have_v nothing_o of_o sense_n or_o reason_n to_o answer_v and_o as_o for_o antiquity_n it_o be_v not_o so_o much_o as_o think_v upon_o in_o the_o first_o age_n in_o the_o church_n the_o liturgy_n than_o every_o where_o be_v in_o the_o know_a and_o vulgar_a tongue_n otherwise_o how_o shall_v the_o unlearned_a say_v amen_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v in_o this_o as_o in_o divers_a other_o of_o their_o fopperye_n a_o very_a mystery_n of_o iniquity_n i_o can_v hearty_o wish_v that_o for_o the_o undeceive_a of_o ignorant_a papist_n their_o missale_n pontifical_n breviarye_n lady_n psaltre_n etc._n etc._n be_v translate_v into_o the_o english_a and_o other_o vulgar_a tongue_n that_o such_o poor_a delude_a soul_n may_v see_v to_o what_o absurd_a prayer_n they_o say_v amen_o to_o what_o childish_a ridiculous_a ceremony_n they_o submit_v i_o may_v here_o add_v the_o vain_a reptition_n of_o so_o many_o ave-maria_n &_o pater-noster's_a upon_o their_o bead_n their_o say_n of_o they_o at_o certain_a hour_n as_o a_o pensum_fw-la or_o task_n or_o a_o penance_n to_o make_v a_o compensation_n for_o their_o sin_n rather_o than_o as_o a_o willing_a serious_a duty_n from_o the_o heart_n and_o soul_n which_o be_v not_o religious_a pray_v but_o a_o childish_a say_n of_o prayer_n a_o vain_a heathenish_a babble_n after_o the_o manner_n of_o a_o old_a wife_n charm_n rest_v in_o the_o work_n do_v as_o if_o the_o bare_a say_n of_o prayer_n without_o any_o intention_n of_o the_o mind_n be_v the_o only_a end_n of_o pray_v or_o the_o effectual_a ●erven●_n prayer_n of_o a_o righteous_a man_n jam._n 5.16_o i_o may_v also_o add_v their_o cheat_a purgatory_n their_o purchase_n of_o pardon_n and_o indulgence_n for_o sin_n past_a and_o for_o many_o hundred_o year_n to_o come_v by_o sum_n of_o money_n set_v down_o in_o the_o tax_n book_n of_o their_o chancery_n their_o pilgrimage_n and_o bodily_a severitye_n to_o expiate_v for_o the_o sin_n of_o their_o soul_n their_o allow_v of_o brothel_n house_n to_o grati●ye_v the_o unmarried_a clergy_n and_o other_o in_o their_o unclean_a lust_n for_o which_o the_o pope_n receive_v a_o lusty_a pension_n but_o to_o deal_v true_o with_o you_o no_o one_o thing_n wrought_v a_o great_a dislike_n of_o popery_n in_o i_o then_o their_o barbarous_a bloody_a cruel●y_n towards_o those_o that_o they_o please_v to_o call_v heretic_n their_o savage_a inquisition_n their_o parisian_a irish_a and_o other_o massacre_n history_n their_o marian_n butchering_n their_o intend_a matchless_a powder_n treason_n their_o poison_n and_o stab_v of_o king_n their_o justifie_v of_o rebellion_n and_o all_o manner_n of_o wickedness_n by_o their_o right_a intention_n and_o doctrine_n of_o probability_n as_o be_v to_o be_v see_v in_o the_o first_o and_o second_o part_n of_o the_o mystery_n of_o jesuitism_n in_o the_o jesuit_n morrall_n can_v such_o villainy_n such_o cruelty_n and_o christianity_n stand_v together_o do_v christ_n and_o his_o apostle_n propagate_v the_o gospel_n with_o such_o carnal_a weapon_n how_o severe_o do_v our_o saviour_n rebuke_v his_o angry_a disciple_n when_o they_o will_v have_v call_v for_o fire_n from_o heaven_n to_o destroy_v the_o uncivil_a schismatical_a samaritan_n 10.4_o y●e_n know_v not_o what_o spirit_n you_o be_v of_o for_o the_o son_n of_o man_n be_v not_o come_v to_o destroy_v man_n life_n but_o to_o save_v they_o luk._n 9.55_o o_o that_o christ_n pretend_v vicar_n have_v the_o spirit_n of_o the_o meek_a and_o holy_a jesus_n these_o sir_n be_v the_o reason_n which_o move_v i_o to_o forsake_v the_o communion_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n for_o upon_o this_o account_n i_o can_v not_o believe_v she_o to_o be_v the_o catholic_n church_n or_o any_o sound_a part_n of_o it_o but_o a_o very_a schismatical_a haeretical_a one_o that_o have_v depart_v exceed_v much_o from_o primitive_a christianity_n from_o the_o faith_n that_o be_v once_o deliver_v to_o the_o sain●s_n firm._n you_o have_v give_v very_o sufficient_a reason_n for_o your_o departure_n from_o that_o unsound_a church_n which_o may_v satisfy_v any_o serious_a consider_v christian_n and_o you_o have_v save_v i_o the_o trouble_n of_o any_o further_a addition_n to_o they_o i_o be_o now_o full_o persuade_v that_o you_o be_v neither_o atheist_n infidel_n or_o papist_n pray_v you_o let_v i_o know_v what_o be_v your_o present_a persuasion_n and_o what_o church_n you_o most_o approve_v dub._n true_o sir_n there_o be_v so_o many_o sect_n among_o the_o protestant_n that_o i_o be_o in_o no_o small_a doubt_n with_o which_o of_o they_o to_o hold_v commuion_n but_o my_o inclination_n lead_v i_o chief_o to_o return_v to_o my_o old_a mother_n the_o church_n of_o england_n from_o which_o most_o unhappy_o as_o i_o be_o now_o convince_v i_o heretofore_o separate_v however_o for_o the_o remou●l_n of_o some_o scruple_n which_o yet_o remain_v with_o i_o ●_o earnest_o desire_v you_o to_o give_v yourself_o the_o trouble_n of_o a_o short_a discourse_n concern_v the_o several_a sect_n now_o in_o england_n firm._n i_o shall_v most_o ●readily_o gratify_v you_o in_o this_o your_o very_a reasonable_a request_n nothing_o doubt_v but_o that_o i_o shall_v by_o god_n gracious_a assistance_n remove_v all_o your_o scruple_n and_o fix_v you_o a_o true_a son_n of_o that_o church_n which_o be_v the_o most_o catholic_n apostolical_a church_n now_o exstant_fw-la in_o all_o the_o world_n which_o those_o that_o do_v acknowledge_v the_o holy_a scripture_n to_o be_v the_o infallible_a word_n of_o god_n the_o perfect_a rule_n of_o all_o the_o substantial_o of_o christianity_n both_o for_o faith_n and_o manner_n and_o have_v some_o competent_a knowledge_n in_o the_o record_n of_o antiquity_n the_o want_n of_o which_o be_v one_o great_a cause_n of_o heresy_n and_o schism_n as_o to_o be_v able_a to_o trace_v christian_a religion_n through_o the_o several_a age_n of_o the_o church_n from_o the_o apostle_n down_o to_o these_o present_a time_n i_o say_v those_o that_o do_v acknowledge_v these_o thing_n can_v doubt_v of_o dub._n you_o much_o confirm_v i_o in_o what_o i_o have_v often_o hear_v from_o grave_n and_o learned_a man_n that_o one_o great_a cause_n of_o error_n in_o religion_n be_v ignorance_n in_o the_o write_n of_o the_o ancient_a doctor_n of_o the_o church_n counsel_n and_o ecclesiastical_a history_n this_o be_v not_o every_o man_n work_n that_o have_v neither_o book_n to_o read_v nor_o brain_n to_o understand_v they_o and_o that_o t●e_v sure_a way_n to_o be_v a_o orthodox_n christian_n be_v by_o study_v descendendo_fw-la beginning_n with_o the_o record_n of_o the_o first_o century_n then_o
the_o folly_n and_o madness_n of_o this_o phanaticism_n and_o from_o whence_o it_o spring_v please_v you_o we_o will_v discourse_v of_o anabaptism_n pray_v you_o what_o do_v you_o think_v of_o that_o dialogue_n v._o against_o anabaptism_n firm._n anabaptism_n be_v a_o most_o carnal_a and_o bloody_a sect_n as_o appear_v by_o the_o history_n of_o john_n of_o leiden_fw-mi knipperdoling_n write_v by_o sleiden_n and_o bullenger_n dub._n but_o what_o do_v you_o think_v of_o their_o opnion_n concern_v infant_n baptism_n i_o shall_v not_o trouble_v you_o with_o other_o of_o their_o tenant_n which_o be_v common_a to_o they_o with_o other_o schismatic_n firm._n that_o opinion_n of_o they_o be_v contrary_a to_o scripture_n and_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n dub._n i_o have_v often_o he●rd_v they_o say_v that_o if_o there_o be_v any_o express_a text_n in_o scripture_n for_o the_o baptising_n of_o infant_n they_o will_v allow_v of_o that_o practice_n firm._n though_o there_o be_v no_o express_a place_n in_o scripture_n for_o it_o as_o there_o be_v for_o circumcise_n of_o child_n under_o the_o law_n yet_o there_o be_v many_o text_n which_o do_v infer_v it_o by_o rational_a consequence_n what_o express_a text_n be_v there_o for_o the_o communicate_v of_o woman_n which_o nevertheless_o the_o anabaptist_n practice_n 10.6_o have_v they_o not_o express_v text_n for_o obey_v the_o civil_a magistrate_n for_o take_v a_o oath_n before_o he_o thou_o shall_v swear_v the_o lord_n live_v in_o justice_n in_o judgement_n and_o truth_n thou_o shall_v fear_v the_o lord_n and_o swear_v by_o his_o name_n i_o call_v god_n for_o a_o record_n upon_o my_o soul_n a_o oath_n for_o confirmation_n be_v not_o be_v a_o end_n of_o all_o strife_n and_o we_o have_v the_o angel_n in_o the_o revelation_n which_o be_v never_o under_o the_o levitical_a law_n swear_v yo●_n see_v here_o be_v express_a text_n for_o obedience_n to_o magistrate_n and_o for_o take_v a_o oath_n before_o they_o yet_o the_o anabaptist_n will_v not_o swear_v at_o all_o which_o be_v a_o moral_a duty_n enjoin_v in_o the_o three_o commandment_n and_o how_o obedient_a they_o be_v to_o the_o supreme_a power_n let_v germany_n and_o england_n witness_n in_o our_o ●ate_z civil_a war_n so_o that_o you_o may_v see_v that_o if_o there_o be_v a_o express_a text_n for_o infant_n baptism_n they_o will_v not_o yield_v unto_o it_o but_o follow_v their_o own_o wild_a imagination_n dub._n doubtless_o it_o be_v grand_a hypocrisy_n to_o call_v for_o express_v text_n for_o infants-baptism_n and_o yet_o to_o act_v direct_o against_o such_o text_n in_o other_o point_n of_o necessary_a duty_n firm._n true_a it_o be_v we_o have_v no_o express_a text_n for_o infants-baptism_n yet_o we_o have_v many_o that_o do_v necessary_o infer_v it_o as_o that_o of_o our_o saviour_n suffer_v little_a child_n ●o_o come_v unto_o i_o which_o he_o take_v in_o his_o arm_n and_o bless_a certain_o those_o that_o be_v capable_a of_o his_o blessing_n be_v capable_a of_o the_o seal_n of_o it_o the_o child_n of_o believer_n be_v say_v to_o be_v holy_a the_o promise_n be_v to_o you_o and_o to_o your_o child_n 28._o go_v teach_v all_o nation_n baptise_v they_o in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o father_n son_n and_o holy_a ghost_n all_o which_o place_n evident_o show_v that_o the_o child_n of_o believe_a christian_n have_v as_o much_o right_n to_o baptism_n as_o the_o child_n of_o the_o jew_n have_v to_o circumcision_n unless_o we_o shall_v say_v that_o the_o lord_n be_v more_o gracious_a to_o the_o jew_n than_o he_o be_v to_o we_o christian_n and_o that_o the_o hand_n of_o his_o mercy_n be_v shorten_v to_o we_o which_o be_v so_o much_o stretch_v out_o to_o they_o if_o their_o child_n be_v in_o covenant_n with_o god_n as_o it_o be_v evident_a they_o be_v deut._n 29.11_o then_o be_v the_o child_n of_o christian_n under_o the_o same_o privilege_n unless_o any_o man_n can_v give_v a_o good_a reason_n to_o the_o contrary_a which_o must_v be_v draw_v either_o from_o the_o mercy_n or_o judgement_n of_o god_n there_o be_v no_o show_n of_o reason_n to_o say_v it_o be_v from_o his_o judgement_n much_o less_o from_o his_o mercy_n for_o who_o dare_v say_v it_o be_v a_o mercy_n not_o to_o be_v in_o covenant_n with_o god_n to_o these_o text_n of_o scripture_n we_o may_v add_v the_o practice_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n for_o fifteen_o hundred_o year_n as_o appear_v by_o the_o writer_n in_o their_o several_a century_n which_o be_v the_o best_a commentary_n upon_o the_o scripture_n the_o father_n who_o live_v in_o the_o first_o age_n of_o the_o church_n have_v a_o fair_a opportunity_n to_o understand_v the_o meaning_n of_o the_o apostle_n and_o their_o immediate_a successor_n than_o we_o that_o live_v at_o so_o great_a a_o distance_n tertullian_n one_o of_o the_o most_o ancient_a of_o they_o confess_v the_o practice_n of_o infant_n baptism_n though_o he_o do_v not_o approve_v it_o cyprian_a and_o fidus_n will_v never_o have_v contende●_n about_o the_o circumstance_n of_o time_n if_o they_o have_v doubt_v of_o the_o lawfulness_n of_o the_o thing_n i_o m●y_v add_v to_o what_o have_v be_v say_v either_o the_o baptise_v of_o infant_n be_v a_o small_a error_n or_o it_o be_v a_o great_a and_o gross_a one_o if_o i●_n be_v but_o a_o small_a error_n a_o error_n of_o charity_n towards_o poor_a infant_n why_o do_v the_o ana●ap●i●ts_n in_o the_o late_a time_n of_o confusion_n separate_v from_o those_o church_n which_o do_v not_o impose_v it_o as_o a_o necessary_a con●ition_n of_o communion_n with_o they_o if_o it_o be_v a_o great_a and_o gross_a one_o than_o the_o catholic_n church_n have_v maintain_v a_o gross_a error_n for_o fifteen_o hundred_o year_n and_o upward_o how_o then_o be_v that_o promise_n make_v good_a unto_o it_o that_o christ_n spirit_n shall_v lead_v it_o into_o all_o truth_n and_o that_o the_o gate_n of_o hell_n shall_v not_o prevail_v against_o it_o dub._n indeed_o those_o text_n of_o scripture_n so_o well_o explain_v by_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n ●or_a so_o many_o year_n since_o the_o time_n of_o the_o apostle_n be_v a_o evident_a argument_n for_o the_o proof_n of_o infant_n baptism_n but_o be_v you_o certain_a that_o infant_n baptism_n be_v practise_v in_o the_o primitive_a time_n firm._n we_o be_v most_o certain_a from_o the_o write_n of_o the_o father_n in_o those_o time_n irenaeus_n lib._n 2._o cap._n 39_o origen_n lib._n 5._o in_o cap._n 6._o ad_fw-la rom._n cyprian_n lib._n 3._o epist._n 8._o ad_fw-la ●idum_fw-la hieronymus_n lib._n 3._o contra_fw-la pelagianos_fw-la nazian_n ora●iones_n in_o sacrum_fw-la lavacrum_fw-la basil_n orat._n exhort_v ad_fw-la baptismum_fw-la chrisost._n homil._n 1._o ad_fw-la neophyr_n augustine_n lib._n 10._o de_fw-fr gen._n cap._n 23._o the_o custom_n of_o baptise_v infant_n be_v a_o apostolical_a tradition_n lib._n 4._o de_fw-la baptismo_fw-la cap._n 24._o idem_fw-la aff●rmat_n prosper_n lib._n 22._o the_o vocatione_n ge●tium_fw-la cap._n 8._o these_o three_o father_n make_v use_n of_o the_o baptise_v of_o infant_n as_o a_o argument_n against_o the_o pelagian_n who_o deny_v original_a sin_n which_o practise_v of_o infant_n baptism_n these_o subtle_a heretic_n dare_v never_o deny_v because_o they_o know_v it_o be_v the_o practice_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n dub._n it_o be_v strange_a th●t_n so_o m●ny_v testimony_n of_o the_o ancient_a doctor_n of_o the_o church_n with_o such_o evident_a place_n of_o scripture_n before_o allegd_a shall_v not_o silence_v these_o perverse_a man_n firm._n by_o term_v they_o perverse_a you_o render_v a_o just_a reason_n why_o neither_o scripture_n nor_o father_n nor_o argument_n ●ill_v satisfy_v they_o few_o of_o this_o sect_n or_o indeed_o of_o any_o other_o be_v learned_a except_o it_o be_v their_o leader_n popish_a priest_n and_o jesuit_n which_o spread_v such_o error_n by_o design_n to_o make_v division_n among_o we_o that_o they_o may_v ●eign_v now_o it_o be_v no_o strange_a thing_n to_o see_v ignorance_n and_o perverseness_n to_o dwell_v under_o the_o ●ame_n roof_n for_o whosoever_o be_v capable_a of_o conviction_n must_v have_v some_o knowledge_n and_o reason_n that_o he_o may_v be_v able_a to_o understand_v the_o force_n of_o a_o argument_n when_o it_o be_v propose_v unto_o he_o as_o seduce_v sectary_n be_v man_n of_o very_a short_a discourse_n do_v not_o beside_o that_o little_a portion_n of_o reason_n which_o remain_v in_o they_o be_v so_o becloud_v with_o sel●conceit_n interest_n and_o faction_n prejudice_n pride_n and_o uncharitableness_n th●t_v they_o have_v utter_o lo●t_v all_o use_n of_o it_o he_o that_o doubt_v of_o this_o let_v he_o discourse_n either_o with_o quaker_n or_o anabaptist_n and_o he_o will_v find_v they_o a_o very_a proud_a ignorant_a conceit_a perverse_a people_n dub._n i_o have_v sufficient_a experience_n of_o their_o pride_n and_o perverseness_n
but_o leave_v they_o to_o their_o own_o simple_a fancy_n &_o enthusiasm_n let_v we_o proceed_v to_o the_o presbyterian_o to_o which_o party_n i_o first_o adhere_v when_o i_o forsake_v the_o church_n of_o england_n and_o and_o of_o all_o dissenter_n from_o th●t_a church_n in_o my_o opinion_n they_o have_v the_o great_a show_n of_o reason_n for_o their_o separation_n firm._n in_o my_o judgement_n they_o have_v less_o reason_n to_o separate_v then_o any_o other_o because_o they_o agree_v with_o we_o in_o doctrinal_n and_o be_v divide_v from_o we_o because_o of_o some_o ceremony_n which_o be_v confess_o thing_n indifferent_a and_o for_o some_o mode_n of_o government_n viz._n the_o episcopal_a and_o presbyterian_a of_o which_o though_o the_o former_a be_v the_o best_a and_o most_o ancient_a yet_o learned_a and_o most_o moderate_a man_n of_o both_o party_n do_v acknowledge_v that_o neither_o of_o these_o form_n of_o government_n be_v so_o essential_a to_o the_o be_v of_o a_o church_n but_o that_o it_o may_v subsist_v and_o be_v a_o true_a church_n under_o either_o of_o they_o potius_fw-la ad_fw-la bene_fw-la esse_fw-la quam_fw-la simpliciter_fw-la ad_fw-la esse_fw-la but_o more_o of_o this_o hereafter_o but_o before_o we_o begin_v our_o discourse_n about_o presbytery_n let_v we_o speak_v a_o few_o thing_n concern_v independency_n for_o i_o have_v hear_v that_o you_o be_v sometime_o of_o that_o persuasion_n dub._n true_o i_o be_v once_o a_o independent_a or_o congregational_a man_n bu●_n see_v all_o sectary_n be_v in_o respect_n of_o church_n fellowship_n independent_v and_o that_o these_o man_n for_o the_o most_o part_n have_v the_o same_o objection_n against_o the_o church_n of_o england_n as_o the_o independent_o make_v use_v of_o i_o think_v it_o superfluous_a to_o trouble_v you_o with_o any_o particular_a discourse_n concern_v they_o firm._n there_o be_v three_o thing_n belong_v to_o independency_n which_o we_o have_v not_o discourse_v upon_o as_o yet_o neither_o will_v they_o proper_o fall_v under_o debate_n in_o our_o intend_a dialogue_n about_o presbytery_n if_o you_o please_v we_o will_v take_v a_o brief_a survey_n of_o they_o dub._n i_o willing_o embrace_v this_o motion_n dialogue_n vi_o against_o independency_n firm._n the_o first_o thing_n that_o i_o except_v against_o in_o the_o independency_n be_v the_o government_n practise_v in_o their_o particular_a congregation_n without_o any_o jurisdiction_n one_o over_o another_o so_o that_o every_o of_o their_o assembly_n be_v absolute_a within_o itself_o without_o depend_v upon_o any_o classical_a diocesian_n provincial_a national_a church_n or_o general_a counsel_n whence_o they_o have_v the_o name_n of_o independent_o dub._n be_v it_o true_a that_o they_o will_v no●_n admit_v o●_n any_o superior_a power_n over_o their_o respective_a congreg●tions_n nor_o appeal_v in_o case_n of_o division_n among_o themselves_o unjust_a and_o injurious_a sentence_n give_v in_o their_o partial_a judicatories_n firm._n they_o admit_v of_o no_o appeal_n or_o no_o coercive_a po●er_n over_o they_o in_o any_o consistory_n classis_fw-la or_o counsel_n one_o congregational_a church_n may_v advise_v exhort_v or_o admonish_v another_o as_o brethren_n or_o equal_n but_o not_o punish_v or_o correct_v as_o judge_n o●_n superior_n what_o do_v you_o say_v to_o this_o new_a knack_n of_o church_n government_n dub._n i_o think_v it_o to_o be_v anarchical_a and_o confuse_a the_o natural_a parent_n of_o all_o schism_n and_o hereses_n i_o do_v not_o no●_n so_o much_o wonder_v how_o england_n of_o late_a year_n since_o this_o headless_a faction_n prevail_v among_o we_o become_v a_o second_o amsterdam_n what_o error_n what_o heresy_n so_o gross_a so_o damnable_a what_o injustice_n what_o oppression_n never_o so_o grievous_a which_o may_v not_o go_v unpunished_a in_o such_o assembly_n from_o which_o there_o lie_v no_o appeal_n how_o must_v they_o be_v break_v into_o infinite_a fraction_n especial_o where_o the_o fear_n of_o a_o common_a enemy_n do_v not_o unite_v and_o piece_n they_o together_o firm._n you_o right_o apprehend_v for_o all_o these_o danger_n and_o inconvenience_n be_v the_o necessary_a consequent_n of_o independent_a congregation_n where_o any_o popish_a wolf_n in_o sheep_n clothing_n have_v a_o fair_a opportunity_n to_o sow_v the_o seed_n of_o anabaptism_n quaquerism_n socianism_n or_o any_o poisonous_a heresy_n whatsoever_o to_o spread_v the_o principle_n of_o sedetion_n and_o treason_n as_o have_v be_v of_o late_a to_o much_o practise_v in_o this_o nation_n &_o i_o wish_v such_o tare_n be_v not_o still_o scatter_v in_o our_o separate_a conventicle_n to_o this_o very_a day_n it_o be_v the_o observation_n of_o sir_n rob._n cotton_n above_o threescore_o yea●s_n since_o that_o priest_n and_o jesuit_n do_v put_v on_o the_o habit_n of_o captain_n merchant_n etc._n etc._n that_o that_o they_o may_v deceive_v poor_a ignorant_a people_n under_o that_o disguise_n opera_fw-la posthu_n pag._n 148._o dub._n you_o have_v say_v enough_o against_o this_o headless_a church_n government_n and_o the_o sad_a consequence_n of_o it_o i_o pray_v you_o proceed_v to_o the_o second_o thing_n you_o promise_v to_o debate_v concern_v independency_n firm._n the_o second_o error_n do_v concern_v tithe_n which_o generaly_a the_o independent_o with_o other_o sectary_n will_v persuade_v the_o world_n be_v a_o great_a oppression_n upon_o the_o people_n mere_o levitical_a and_o not_o due_a or_o lawful_a under_o the_o gospel_n dub._n i_o desire_v to_o hear_v from_o you_o what_o may_v be_v reply_v to_o these_o cavil_n for_o i_o believe_v they_o be_v no_o better_o firm._n the_o pay_v of_o tithe_n be_v no_o oppression_n upon_o the_o people_n no_o injury_n to_o they_o at_o all_o for_o if_o no_o freeholder_n farmer_n or_o tenant_n whatsoever_o have_v any_o legal_a or_o equitable_a right_a ●r_n title_n to_o the_o ten_o part_n by_o purchase_n donation_n inheritance_n lease_n or_o by_o any_o other_o imaginable_a conveyance_n then_o the_o pay_v of_o tithe_n can_v be_v no_o injury_n at_o all_o but_o the_o free_a holder_n farmer_n or_o purchaser_n have_v no_o legal_a right_n to_o the_o ten_o part_n no_o more_o than_o the_o minister_n have_v to_o the_o other_o nine_o because_o for_o many_o hundred_o year_n it_o have_v be_v invest_v in_o the_o church_n by_o as_o good_a law_n as_o any_o layman_n have_v right_a or_o title_n to_o the_o free_a hold_n farm_n or_o lease_n which_o he_o have_v purchase_v or_o pay_v rend_v for_o so_o that_o the_o ten_o part_n can_v descend_v to_o any_o m●n_z by_o inheritance_n gift_n or_o puchase_n neither_o do_v any_o tenant_n pay_v one_o penny_n of_o rent_n to_o his_o land_n lord_n for_o that_o part_n of_o the_o increase_n of_o fruit_n grain_n grass_n or_o any_o other_o commodity_n whatsoever_o dub._n true_o sir_n i_o have_v hear_v as_o much_o and_o if_o tithe_n be_v take_v from_o the_o church_n no_o question_n landlord_n will_v raise_v their_o rent_n and_o fine_n and_o purchaser_n will_v quick_o find_v the_o price_n of_o land_n raise_v proportionable_o to_o a_o ten_o part_n firm._n this_o be_v so_o plain_a that_o nothing_o but_o gross_a ignorance_n envy_n and_o malice_n against_o the_o clergy_n can_v entertain_v the_o least_o doubt_n of_o it_o dub._n sir_n you_o put_v i_o in_o mind_n of_o one_o thing_n which_o i_o have_v often_o think_v upon_o and_o much_o wonder_v at_o that_o general_o those_o that_o go_v under_o the_o n●me_n of_o protestant_n in_o your_o church_n have_v little_a respect_n for_o their_o minister_n whereas_o papist_n and_o presbyterian_o show_v great_a respect_n to_o they_o firm._n you_o need_v not_o wonder_v at_o it_o the_o true_a reason_n of_o this_o contempt_n be_v for_o want_v of_o zeal_n to_o that_o religion_n which_o th●y_v profess_v where●s_a papist_n and_o presbyterian_o be_v zealous_a in_o they_o but_o your_o mere_a formal_a protestant_n of_o which_o number_n there_o be_v too_o many_o be_v a_o formal_a nothing_o one_o that_o be_v so_o far_o from_o the_o power_n of_o godliness_n that_o he_o have_v not_o the_o naked_a formality_n of_o it_o now_o there_o can_v be_v a_o great_a sign_n of_o a_o irreligious_a atheist_n than_o contempt_n of_o the_o clergy_n for_o where_o they_o be_v despise_v god_n can_v be_v honour_v nor_o religion_n have_v in_o esteem_n if_o the_o gentleman_n that_o have_v assign_v reason_n for_o the_o contempt_n of_o the_o clergy_n have_v think_v on_o this_o it_o will_v have_v be_v worth_a all_o the_o reason_n in_o his_o whole_a book_n but_o it_o may_v be_v he_o be_v so_o much_o a_o stranger_n to_o his_o own_o heart_n that_o he_o think_v not_o of_o it_o dub._n but_o be_v not_o many_o minister_n themselves_o a_o chief_a cause_n that_o they_o be_v so_o contemn_v firm._n i_o be_v about_o to_o tell_v you_o so_o it_o be_v much_o to_o be_v be_v wail_v that_o too_o many_o in_o holy_a order_n be_v through_o ignorance_n negligence_n in_o the_o duty_n of_o their_o call_n looseness_n in_o
persuade_v that_o shism_n and_o heresy_n be_v the_o necessary_a consequent_n of_o man_n invade_v the_o ministry_n without_o regular_a ordination_n but_o for_o my_o better_a satisfaction_n i_o pray_v you_o let_v i_o understand_v the_o reason_n that_o make_v against_o this_o independent_a practice_n firm._n my_o reason_n be_v these_o drawn_z first_o from_o plain_a scripture_n as_o jerem._n 14.14_o and_o 23.21_o where_o there_o be_v a_o complaint_n against_o those_o prophet_n that_o prophesy_v lie_n in_o god_n name_n and_o he_o send_v they_o not_o and_o again_o the_o same_o prophet_n i_o have_v not_o send_v these_o prophet_n and_o yet_o they_o run_v i_o have_v not_o speak_v unto_o they_o and_o yet_o they_o prophesy_v therefore_o they_o shall_v not_o profit_v these_o people_n at_o all_o neither_o be_v this_o send_v and_o call_v a_o necessary_a requisite_a only_a under_o the_o law_n but_o also_o in_o the_o time_n of_o the_o gospel_n the_o first_o that_o be_v ever_o call_v and_o send_v to_o preach_v the_o glad_a tiding_n of_o the_o kingdom_n of_o heaven_n be_v the_o apostle_n who_o be_v first_o disciple_n to_o the_o best_a of_o master_n before_o they_o be_v send_v out_o to_o preach_v first_o qualify_a fo●_n the_o work_n and_o then_o sent._n so_o upon_o the_o treason_n and_o death_n of_o judas_n mathias_n be_v make_v a_o apostle_n in_o his_o place_n but_o by_o election_n and_o ordination_n act_n 1._o heb._n 5._o no_o man_n must_v take_v this_o honour_n upon_o he_o but_o he_o that_o be_v call_v of_o god_n either_o immediate_o or_o by_o the_o governor_n of_o the_o church_n and_o hereupon_o it_o be_v that_o st._n paul_n leave_v timothy_n at_o ephesus_n and_o titus_n at_o crete_n to_o ordain_v elder_n in_o every_o city_n instruct_v they_o how_o the_o priest_n and_o deacon_n ought_v to_o be_v qualify_v it_o be_v well_o worth_a our_o observation_n how_o the_o apostle_n make_v the_o salvation_n of_o man_n to_o depend_v ordinary_o upon_o the_o preach_a of_o send_v and_o call_v minister_n rom._n 10._o whosoever_o call_v upon_o th●_n name_n of_o the_o lord_n he_o shall_v be_v save_v but_o such_o call_v presuppose_v believe_v hear_v preach_a send_v how_o shall_v they_o preach_v except_o they_o be_v send_v dub._n it_o be_v evident_a by_o the_o scripture_n both_o of_o the_o old_a and_o new_a testament_n that_o no_o man_n ought_v to_o take_v upon_o he_o the_o office_n of_o a_o minister_n before_o he_o have_v a_o lawful_a call_v from_o the_o church_n or_o can_v by_o work_a miracle_n make_v it_o appear_v that_o he_o be_v immediate_o call_v from_o god_n which_o be_v not_o now_o to_o be_v expect_v firm._n and_o it_o be_v as_o evident_a from_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n from_o the_o time_n of_o the_o apostle_n even_o to_o this_o present_a age_n for_o he_o that_o shall_v peruse_v her_o record_n shall_v find_v that_o whosoever_o do_v presume_v to_o take_v upon_o himself_o the_o office_n of_o public_a preach_v or_o administation_n of_o the_o sacrament_n without_o a_o extraordinary_a call_n arrest_v by_o miracle_n or_o a_o ordinary_a one_o from_o the_o governor_n of_o the_o church_n be_v ever_o account_v a_o thief_n and_o a_o robber_n no_o true_a shepherd_n that_o enter_v in_o at_o the_o church_n door_n but_o creep_v in_o or_o climb_v up_o some_o other_o way_n and_o hereupon_o tertullian_n complain_v that_o in_o their_o heretical_a conventicle_n their_o woman_n be_v bold_a pratler_n they_o do_v preach_v dispute_n baptize_v mere_a laic_n do_v usurp_v the_o priest_n office_n by_o which_o mean_n instead_o of_o convert_v heathen_n they_o do_v pervert_v christian_n st._n hierom_n also_o in_o a_o epistle_n to_o paulinus_n complain_v that_o every_o one_o do_v presume_v to_o interpret_v holy_a scripture_n prate_v old_a woman_n dote_v old_a man_n husbandman_n mason_n jack_n of_o all_o trade_n even_o as_o it_o have_v be_v in_o this_o divide_a nation_n tradesman_n shoemaker_n cobbler_n glover_n tailor_n have_v skipe_v from_o the_o shop_n to_o the_o pulpit_n and_o have_v leave_v stitch_v of_o grament_n to_o make_v a_o rent_n in_o the_o church_n dub._n there_o be_v no_o ingenuous_a man_n that_o be_v acquaint_v with_o the_o tenant_n of_o anabaptist_n and_o quaker_n that_o will_v deny_v that_o our_o sectary_n have_v sharpen_v their_o tool_n which_o they_o have_v use_v against_o we_o at_o the_o forge_v of_o these_o philistine_n have_v you_o any_o thing_n else_o to_o object_n against_o these_o schismatic_a practice_n firm._n yes_o the_o prudential_a order_n which_o be_v use_v in_o all_o other_o calling_n the_o able_a lawer_fw-we gentleman_n soldier_z mu●●_n not_o execute_v the_o office_n of_o a_o judge_n justice_n of_o peace_n commander_n in_o war_n without_o a_o commission_n a_o student_n in_o physic_n can_v practice_v without_o a_o linence_n no_o man_n can_v set_v up_o his_o trade_n in_o a_o well_o govern_v corporation_n until_o he_o have_v serve_v out_o his_o apprenticeship_n and_o be_v make_v a_o freeman_n such_o excellent_a order_n be_v observe_v in_o civil_a affair_n but_o in_o the_o great_a concern_v of_o the_o church_n there_o shall_v b●_n nothing_o but_o confusion_n if_o these_o man_n may_v be_v suffer_v to_o act_v according_a to_o their_o irrational_a and_o extravagant_a fancy_n dub._n it_o be_v most_o apparent_a that_o their_o action_n be_v against_o scripture_n the_o practice_n of_o the_o cartholick_a church_n and_o the_o dictate_v of_o reason_n which_o no_o christian_a no_o sober_a man_n will_v contradict_v therefore_o let_v we_o leave_v this_o headless_a faction_n and_o discourse_n about_o presbytery_n which_o have_v the_o most_o plausible_a reason_n for_o its_o nonconformity_n to_o our_o church_n of_o any_o other_o that_o do_v separate_v from_o we_o dialogue_n vii_o against_o presbytery_n firm._n the_o first_o step_n you_o make_v out_o of_o our_o church_n as_o i_o have_v hear_v be_v unto_o presbytery_n i_o desire_v to_o know_v the_o reason_n why_o you_o leave_v our_o communion_n and_o make_v choice_n of_o they_o dub._n i_o confess_v the_o first_o step_n i_o make_v out_o of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n be_v into_o the_o tent_n of_o presbytery_n thence_o to_o the_o independent_o and_o so_o to_o the_o anabaptist_n and_o at_o last_o i_o become_v little_o better_a than_o a_o atheist_n as_o i_o before_o have_v declare_v thus_o unhappy_a man_n as_o i_o be_v be_v out_o of_o the_o true_a church_n i_o be_v like_o noah_n dove_n out_o of_o the_o ark_n flutter_v over_o the_o flood_n of_o error_n and_o boisterous_a wave_n of_o shism●_n faction_n and_o heresy_n find_v no_o firm_a land_n for_o the_o sole_a of_o my_o foot_n to_o rest_v upon_o firm._n this_o be_v not_o your_o case_n alone_o but_o of_o many_o ●n_n un●table_a soul_n th●t_v in_o those_o la●e_a time_n of_o rebellion_n &_o confusion_n eph._n 4._o have_v be_v blow_v about_o with_o every_o wind_n of_o doctri●e_n by_o the_o sleight_n of_o man_n jesuit_n priest_n and_o socintan_n and_o their_o cunning_a craftiness_n whereby_o they_o hau●_n lie_v in_o wait_n to_o deceive_v a_o ●●ence_n it_o be_v th●t_v the_o prophet_n david_n curse_n fall_v he●vy_a upon_o they_o for_o they_o have_v fall_v from_o one_o wickedness_n to_o another_o from_o one_o wicked_a opinion_n to_o a_o s●●ond_n a_o three_o etc._n etc._n till_o at_o length_n they_o have_v turn_v seeker_n sceptic_n atheist_n and_o scoffer_n at_o all_o religion_n dub._n this_o be_v once_o my_o condition_n but_o praise_v be_v the_o lord_n who_o have_v bring_v my_o foot_n out_o of_o the_o snare_n i_o have_v by_o his_o blessing_n shake_v off_o all_o those_o wild_a and_o groundless_a fancy_n and_o be_o more_o than_o half_o persuade_v that_o the_o church_n of_o england_n be_v one_o of_o the_o mo●t_a orthodox_n apostolical_a church_n under_o the_o cope_n of_o heaven_n however_o for_o my_o better_a confirmation_n let_v i_o hear_v your_o answer_n to_o those_o exception_n which_o the_o presbyterian_o have_v urge_v against_o her_o government_n by_o arch-bishop_n bishop_n dean_n and_o chapter_n her_o lyturgie_n her_o set_a form_n of_o prayer_n her_o ceremony_n her_o receive_a person_n of_o scandalous_a life_n and_o gross_o ignorant_a in_o the_o principle_n of_o religion_n to_o the_o holy_a sacrament_n of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ._n these_o be_v the_o great_a scandal_n at_o which_o i_o sometime_o stumble_v and_o fall_v from_o the_o communion_n of_o the_o church_n into_o the_o congregation_n of_o our_o classical_a brethren_n firm._n i_o shall_v mos●_n willing_o give_v in_o my_o answer_n to_o those_o exception_n in_o that_o order_n you_o have_v rank_v they_o therefore_o in_o the_o first_o place_n let_v i_o hear_v what_o you_o can_v object_v against_o our_o bishop_n dub._n i_o have_v be_v tell_v they_o be_v antchristian_n not_o hear_v of_o in_o the_o primitive_a time_n such_o plant_n as_o our_o heavenly_a father_n have_v not_o plant_v and_o therefore_o to_o be_v root_v