Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	communion_n	member_n	separation_n	3,098	5	9.7439	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A29739	Two conferences between some of those that are called Separatists & Independents, concerning their different tenents one whereof, was appointed with Mr. Burton and a number of his church, and the other with Mr. John Goodwin and some of his church ... / now published by D.B. ...	Brown, David, fl. 1650-1652.; Chidley, Samuel.; Burton, Mr.; Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.	1650 (1650)	Wing B5016; ESTC R20226	18,640	27

eat And I will destroy your high places and cut down your Images and cast your Carcases upon the Carcases of your Idoles and my soule shall abhorre you 2 Chron. 34. 1. 2 3 4 5 6 7. 1 Kings 13. 2. 2 Kings 23. 13. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20. Mr. Chidleys Letter to Mr. Goodwin And the summe of the Conference which followed thereupon Mr. GOODVVIN THese are to certify you that Mrs. Goodsone who is one of your Congregation is wife to one whoe is a Member with us of the Separation and she findeth her selfe agrieved that her Husband is not free to communicate with her in spirituall worship now she would willingly know wherein the difference lyes that we cannot communicate with you Therefore we have occasion to inquire into the matter forme ministery worship and government of your Church and shall desire satisfaction therein that it is according to the rule before we can joyne in Communion therewith or with any of the Members thereof knowing that our Lord Christ requireth separation in Worship not in part but wholly both from persons and things polluted with diabolicall uncleannesse and to cleanse our selves from all filthiness both of flesh and spirit and to perfect holiness in his feare which is the desire of the soule of him who is Your true friend ready to receive your manifestation when you shall appoint that I may come to you or you to me SAMUEL CHIDLEY 13th day of the 6th month 1648. Upon the 22. of August 1648. the meeting was appointed to be unto which divers persons came at which Mr. Chidley would have insisted upon the matter and forme c. And first upon the matter but Mr. Goodwin would not debate that nor other things there desired to be handled but said he would go a readier way to work and make an end of the businesse without that for saith he suppose it be granted that all our matter be so corrupt as you presuppose it is yet it is lawfull for your Members to communicate with ours for saith he it is lawfull for a man to communicate with one whom he doubts whether he be a Believer or not but this was denied by Mr. Chidley from two considerations First That whatsoever is doubtfull is not to be practised though it be a thing indifferent because it is not of faith and therefore a sin because whatsoever is not of faith is sin Secondly much more is he to forbeare that which is contrary to the word of God as to communicate with one of whom we have not good testimony of his life and conversation and that the work of grace is wrought upon him that he is effectually called and separated from Idolatry and cleaveth unto the Way of Christ in purity Now said he we know you not yee are strangers to us We are not come to accuse but to hear your manifestation for our satisfaction that yee are fit matter for the Church of Christ and we hope we shall not break Communion for every circumstance of difference amongst us if it do not make against the abosolute being of a Saint Then Mr. Goodwin said I grant that a man is not to practise a thing if he be doubtfull of it but howsoever he that is doubtfull is to give good reason of his doubt Then the Gentleman that doubted was called upon to give his Reasons why he could not communicate with his wife who told them that the Lord had shewed him the evill of the Church of England and that he was joyned to a separated Congregation and thought that he should not be fit matter for the Church to communicate with if he should hold Communion with the Members of Mr. Goodwins Church because Mr. Goodwins Peoples practice was to preach and heare in the Parrish-Churches of England and to Worship in the Idolls Temples and to Baptize the Children of unbelievers and such like Then after some further discourse they shewed themselves to be willing to debate the businesse concerning the high places whereupon the question was stated Whether it were lawfull to worship in the Idolls Temples The sum of the Conference briefly followeth The Apostle to Timothy Tim. 2. 8. saith I will therefore that men pray every where lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting And thereupon Mr. Goodwin argued that Gods word had made no restriction and therefore that we are not to restraine it and that therefore this word every where in this place is to be taken for all manner of places without exception To which Mr. Chidley answered that God himself had made restrictions shewing that we are not to worship him in Idolls Temples for he hath commanded them to be quite pull'd down Numb. 33. 52. and that command is not taken away but remaineth in full force to this day This word every in this place is to be restrained as in other places where it s said Children obey your Parents in all things Col. 3. 20. Servants obey your Masters in all things and every Creature of God is good and all things are lawfull In all which we are to know how farre such words are restrained and how farre not it extendeth and is to be restrained to lawfull things and so this place where he saith pray every where that is in every place which is not prohibited by Gods Law but it s prohibited by Gods Law for the Saints to worship in Idols Temples for he hath commanded they should be quite pluckt down saying ye shall quite pluck down all their high places Numb. 33. 52. because they are polluted with diabolicall uncleannesse now this Command was never abrogated as I said before But Mr. Goodwin said there is no Guilt of sin upon the high places neither is there any sin imputed to them but its a sin to hold restriction of places for Gods worship To which Mr. Chidley answered That God accounts them diabolically uncleane and calleth them by the name of sin it selfe as he calleth the high places of Aven the sin of Israel Hosea 10. 8. And if it be a sin to hold restriction of places for the worship of God then it is a sin to uphold that restriction by worshipping God in those places that are so restrained It s you that uphold distinction of places said Mr. Goodwin not we who meet in them we hold all places alike Mr. Chidley answered again we uphold not the distinction of places but it s you by your worshipping and pleading for those places that are restrained by men Saith Mr. Goodwin even now you would maintain distinction of places and now you say you uphold no distinction of places Mr. Chidley said its true in a sense we uphold them not at all but when they have set up Idolls Temples we do hold that those places are made diabolicall by them because wicked men have dedicated them to their Idols no more doth God himself in the first place make such distinctions of places as they make but when once they have put

TWO CONFERENCES BETWEEN Some of those that are called Separatists Independents Concerning their different TENENTS ONE Whereof was appointed with Mr. BURTON and a number of his Church and the other with Mr. John Goodwin and some of his Church which was occasioned by a Gentlewoman being a Member thereof whose Husband is one of the Separation with a Letter written to that purpose NOW Published by D. B. for resolution of those who are doubtfull in all or any of the matters here controverted chiefly concerning the High places which are usually called Churches and now of late by the Souldiers Steeple-houses LONDON Printed by John Clowes and are to be sold at the Blew-Anchor in Cornehill 1650. To the impartial Reader THere being a meeting appointed between Mr. Burton with some of his Congregation and some of my judgement in matters of Religion that both they and we might conferre together and the better know the difference of our professions and practises and so indeavour if possible to be of our mind concerning the truth at which meeting we expected accordingly to have had all matters in controversie between us fully and lovingly debated but the issue did not prove as we could have wished Again upon an other occasion of some difference also in certain points of Religion between a Sea Captain and his wife he being one of our Members and she of Mr. John Goodwins a meeting likewise was appointed between him with some of his Church and some of ours at which meeting those matters were discussed at large though many lets as in the former were cast in the way to hinder both the progress and conclusion thereof Now seeing the first of these conferences was above six yeares agoe and the last about one year agoe and both of them written when they were recent in the memory it may thereby appear how unwilling all or any of us though having the better part as we hope have been to divulge them or any of them to publick view But now upon further consideration and weighing the matter more seriously as in aballance I find that in the one scale all the prejudice and discontent which the other party may possibly take without any just cause in that we thus shew here to the world both their parts and ours to be all very light in comparison of the generality of the peoples great ignorance and manifold doubts in the other scale who are still captivated in Babel and both misled and blindfolded not onely by the Clergy in general who succeed their Lords and Masters the Bishops howbeit the Servant be not a-above his Lord but even still for sinister ends by the most smooth and subtle sort of them who make a greater shew of godliness and reformation then the rest such us this Mr. Goodwin is and Mr. Burton was This ignorance and doubting doth consist in divers particulars concerning the sacred worship of God chiefly the high places otherwise called Churches and Steeple-houses here in both conferences controverted although their national Church-worship worshippers Ministry Government and maintenance are there by the scope of all to be observed in which and many other most of the people are also very ignorant and doubtful And considering as on the one side that no man ought to hide his Talent nor be a self-lover but every Christian especially is to dispense whatsoever measure of gift he hath received to the good of others so on the other side what great need there is still as was said both of information and resolution in the aforesaid matters notwithstanding all the floods of books now a dayes concerning other subjects And although Mr. Chidley my yoak-fellow in the first and both for himself and me in the last was somewhat averse to the publishing of the business yet since we are of one mind in the particulars thereof the rest of us have thus brought both Conferences to publick observation chiefly concerning the high-places for though we have often heard that howbeit Rome was not built in one day as the proverb is yet a greater number of Romish houses such as the Monasteries Abbies and Nunries both in Scotland and England were demolished in one day formerly then there have been Crosses pulled down either on Steeples or Streetes in a hundred of these dayes now wherein we live notwithstanding there were both far more letts and fewer pretences of reformation in those dayes then in these Thus having no further occasion here to hinder thee from this good occasion it self I refer thee to take hold thereof and of all things else which may adde to thy knowledge and sanctification as I wish to do my-self whiles there is any time or opportunity yet remaining onely at present I intreat thee that what degree of profit soever thou reapest hereby thou wilt give unto God as the onely true owner the whole praise and as for me his weak instrument in this behalf if I incur no just dispraise I shall rest fully and gladly contented Thine as thou both desirest and endeavourest not to follow any man whosoever further then that Man followeth Christ DAVID BROWN Two Conferences between some of those that are called Separatists and Independents concerning their different Tenents THere being a Conference in London appointed between some of those Christians usually called the Separation and Mr. Burton a Pastor of an Independant Church concerning some differences between them and divers Separatists coming to his house in Fryday-street for that purpose upon the 17. day of the 4. moneth 1645. being the 5. day of the week after Church-exercise and onely three of them having occasion to speak viz. Mr. Brown Mr. Duppa and Mr. Chidley and the said Mr. Brown immediatly after the Conference writing the sum of what he and the said Mr. Burton spake which to this time he hath kept secret and it might be he would have done still were it not that by the intreaty of certain friends and to give them and others some satisfaction concerning the high places of England lately debated again between the said Mr. Chidley and Mr. John Goodwin he hath now divulged the same to publick view together with that other Conference of late which was occasioned by a Member of our Congregation whose wife was a Member of Mr. Goodwins Church and desired to be satisfyed whether her Husband or she was in the truest Church-state The first Question was whether Mr. Burton and his Church were in the order of the Gospel that the Separation might know certainly how to esteem them intitle them and have fellowship with them and whether they were so indeed as they professed to be in word and Mr. Burton answering affirmatively it was in the next place demanded how then did his practise and theirs so much differ both their professions and Covenants seeming to be alike and therefore desiring to have his practice compared with his Covenant or profession or any of them with theirs of the Separation which he absolutely

refused saying he and his Church were a free and Independant body or Corporation and therefore not bound to make account to any other Church or people in the world although never so famous and one of his elders added that the very avaliers or Malignants themselves gave them the Title of Separatists But it being objected to Mr. Burton that he was bound both by precept and example of the immediat Apostles to give a reason of his faith stop the mouthes of gain-sayers yea and approve himself to those that are without far more to those that are within even to be indeed as he professeth himself and the rather in that he is a teacher and guide to others as the first Church of the Gentiles at Antiochia thought it rather an honour then any disparagement to aske resolution of some doubts at the Church of the Jewes who were before them in the faith and order of the Gospel at Jerusalem though some of the Apostles were present at both and the rather we hope you wil do said Mr. Brown because we come to you in love esteeming more of you then hundreds of your breeding I mean at the Universities in regard both of your sufferings and writings far beyond what they have either acted or suffered especially for that publick Sermon you made in the Pillary-Pulpit at Westminster three houres long even resisting unto blood against the evill of the times unto which I was a witnesse and is a motive of my coming to you at this time He answered that his profession and practise were agreeable and that he and his people entered according to the rules prescribed in the Gospel and so walked for ought he knew as many can bear witness and we also may if we wil come and hear him To the which or the like words one of his Elders added that John Baptist sent two of his Disciples to ask our Saviour whether he was the Messias or if they should look for another and our Saviour not answering them directly bids them tell their Master what they heard and saw yea and reckoneth up divers excellent particulars which he onely expressed without either inference or application so his meaning to our apprehension was that if we were not pleased with what they professed or practised concerning the worship of God we might rather come and see and heare and observe their works of conversion and manner of conversation then to reason the matter but we desiring first to conferre some few times to see if we could possibly agree in the truth perceiving their unwillingness by some harsh speeches and carriages did apprehend it would be to small purpose Upon the hearing of these or words to that purpose Mr. Burton said that he had renounced his Ministry and Orders which he had of the Church of England and that he witnessed by his suffering against the Ministry constitution worship Government and high-places of that national Church and that there was no holiness in those places And upon his justifying himself and his people in all things by our Saviours practise and his Apostles it was demanded by Mr. Brown what meaneth then the blearing of those sheep and the lowing of them Oxen daily in our eares if you do and obey all things so well as both Saul the Angell of Laodicea many others spake of themselves what meaneth then I say both your preaching and all your Members hearing in those Parish-Assemblies is it not a halting between two opinions and that ye shew your selves neither to be hot nor could in so doing He answered that our Saviour and his Apostles resorted to the Synagogues of the Jewes and why might not they go as wel to the Parish-Assemblies But saith Mr. Brown you must neither compare the Jewish Church with the English nor yet the Synagogues of the one with the high places of the other but rather the high places of England with those in Judah in that they have both an unlawful dedication and foundation so it appeareth by your practise whatsoever by your words you profess that you are still in Babel absolving the wicked sparing as it were the fatt by your presence and condemning the just in Sion whom ye esteem to be lean by your absence though ye know obedience to be better then sacrifice He and another of his Elders answered that neither did he preach nor they hear in every common Parish-Church but such as they chused above others neither did they hear in those high-places as men were in discharge of their Ministerial function but onely in the exercise of their gifts and not so much for edification as that they might get some matter of accusation against them by hearing them and thereof make some profitable use when they saw a convenient occasion Then it was demanded how he and other Independents could justifie their unequal yoking with those in the Parish-Assemblies whom they judge to be onely of the world and not of the Church as themselves profess to be and though they partake in the word prayer with them in the publick high places yet they are not so thankful as to admit those of the Assemblies to partake with them at their privat administring the seales as if that privat separation at that time or in that place would alter the national Church constitution of them and all the root together in one Whereas they should have no spiritual fellowship at all with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather reprove them and witness against them as both Iddo the Prophet did at Bethel and as the Jewes were commanded of God not to go to Bethaven Beersheba Bethel nor Gilgal yea and we find it recorded as a But or Exception even against some of the Kings of Judah for not abolishing those high places whereby not onely evil it self but all the appearances and occasions of evil might be removed so that whatsoever place hath an Idolatrous institution or dedication cannot by any meanes be purged but in altering the form thereof by utter demolition and scarce applying the same to a civil use or to be a common habitation To which was answered that those places might still be well used by Gods people though they have been abused by Heathens and Papists Whereupon occasion was taken by Mr. Brown seeing them so unwilling to confess the truth to clear those two points both of a Church-state and place of meeting expecting a satisfactory answer of them at least for the hearers sake He affirmed that in regard the Temple of Jerusalem was built according to Gods own direction and therefore a holy work alwayes capable to be purged and reduced to the first principle of integrity if ever it should be abused by Idolatry as it was polluted purged and reduced divers times according as the Magistrates and people following their example were disposed to good or evil as upon divine record in the books of the Kings and Chronicles doth appear So the Churches constituted by the immediat