what Opinions are to be tolerated and what not which will be a question inextricable which no mortall man appearingly is able distinctly to determine And some may say The lesse the difference be the lesse need is there for a Toleration to be granted to such a Sect For the lesse it be the greater is the Schisme 5. God in the Old Testament granted no Toleration of divers Religions or Disciplines and the New Testament requireth no lesse union amongst Christians then the old amongst the Jews 6. Either our Brethren do assent to our Doctrine and are resolved likewise to assent to the Discipline which God willing shall be established by common consent or do not If they grant the first what need they any other Toleration then the rest If the second it would be first discussed wherein they are resolved to dissent and afterwards considered whether it be of so great importance that in consideration thereof they dare not in good Conscience entertain communion with us 7. They are not pressed to be Actors in any thing against their Consciences Ergo They need not to be suiters for a Toleration or if they be it may justly be refused 8. It is against the nature of the Communion of Saints to live in Sects apart without communicating at the Lords Table which very hardly will be avoided if Toleration be granted 9. Because the Scripture exhorts us evermore unto unitie which cannot be easily procured by a Toleration of Sects which cannot but daily beget new Schismes and Divisions 10. Because there was greater difference amongst the Members of the Church of Corinth in the rim of Saint Paul and yet they communicated together yea the Apostle exhorted them unto mutuall communion and forbearance of Sects and Divisions 11. Because the Opinion of our Brethren symbolizeth too much with that of the Donatists who separated themselves from other Churches under pretext that they were not so holy as their own Neither is it unlike to the Convents and Monasteries amongst the Papists for as they all professe one Doctrine with the Romish Church and yet every Order hath its own Discipline that of S. Francis one that of S. Dominick another and in every Order one Generall and in every Monastery one Abbot Prior or President So all your Churches beleeve one Doctrine together with us and every one of your Churches hath one Minister as their Convents a particular Abbot or Prior. Ye onely differ in this That ye have no Generall or any thing answerable thereunto to keep you in unitie and conformitie 12. It is the Civill Magistrates part to take away Heresies Superstitions and Corruptions in manners after the examples of the Kings of Juda Wherefore then is not his dutie likewise to take away all Schismes which are the high-way to Heresie and consequently to deny Toleration which is a way to both 13. We have but one God one Christ and one Lord one Spirit we are one Body we have one Faith and one Baptism whereby we enter into the Church Wherefore shall we not have one Communion whereby to be spiritually fed and one Discipline to be ruled by 14. If Churches have Disciplines or Governments different in their Species then the Churches must be different in their Species also for all Collective bodies or Consociations that are governed are differenced by their different Governments as we see in Civill Government in the Constitution and Distinction of States Kingdoms and Republikes Wherefore as many divers Governments as there be in Churches as many different Species of Churches must we admit of I speak here of the Church considered according to her visible forme but the consequent is false since there is but one Church Ergo. 15. Neither Christ nor his Apostles ever granted any Toleration to divers Sects and Governments in the Church wherefore then will ye be Suiters for that which they never granted 16. Yea your New-England men whose wayes and practises in Government ye say are improved to a better Edition and greater refinement whom ye compare with our Father Abraham Pag. 5. tolerated not their Brethren who did hazard their lives in that voyage but made them go again as our Father Abraham to seek out some new Habitations in strange Countreyes yea in strange Wildernesses for themselves and their seed after them yea they would not so much as some very godly and learned Divine relateth in his learned Book against Toleration as receive some men otherwise approved by themselves both for their life and Doctrine to live in any corner of New-England howsoever here they were in danger to be persecuted for Non-conformitie And that mee ly because they differed a little from them in point of Discipline How then can our Brethren of that profession be Suiters for a Toleration in Old England where they are no more persecuted when as those of their profession refused it to those of New-England in time of great persecution Is it not to be feared That if they had the upper hand over us here as there they should send us all to some Isle of Dogs as they have done others 17. Besides all this the Scripture forbiddeth all such Toleration Reve. 2 20 1 Cor 1.12 as that of Jezabel There must be no such speeches amongst us as I am of Paul I of Apollos I of Cephas nor that some are Calvinians as ye terme us some Independenters some Brownists some Anabaptists c. We must all be Christs we must all think and speak the same things Vers 10. Otherwise men are carnall 1 Cor. 3.3 1 Cor. 11.16 18 19 20. Heb 10.25 Gal. 5.12 Neither hath the Church of God a custome to be contentious Neither permitteth the Apostle Schismes We must not quit our mutuall meetings as others do and as must be done in a publike Toleration They that trouble the Church must be cut off 18. Such a Toleration cannot but expose our Churches unto the calumnies of Papists who evermore object unto Protestants the innumerable number of their Sects whereas they pretend to be nothing but one Church 19. Of such a Toleration follows all we formerly deduced out of Independency 20. If it be granted it cannot but be thought that it hath been granted or rather extorted by force of Reason and that all the Assembly were not able to answer our Brethrens whereas indeed their Opinion and Demands are against all Reason as sundry of themselves could not deny and had nothing to say save onely that it was Gods Ordinance which yet they never could shew out of Gods Word On the contrary if it be refused it will help to confirm the Churches and the people in the Truth 21. Neither can it but overthrow all sort of Ecclesiasticall Government for a man being censured in one Church may fly to another and being again suspended in that other from thence to another and so scorn all the Churches of God and their Censures And so this order by necessary consequence will breed all sort
Wherefore will ye not joyn with us and communicate as Brethren with us But ye adde a little after the middle part of this Section That ye both did and would hold a Communion with all those Churches as with the Churches of Christ But what communion is this ye hold with these rather then with Papists Brownists Anabaptists in England and the Lutherans If ye say in Doctrine that Union is not externall since ye testifie it not by your externall Communion in the Sacraments with us for ye will not admit all those to your Communion that we admit to ours 2. Neither will those of New-England whom ye cry up and extoll so highly admit those of our Church to their Communion or to be Members of their Churches unlesse of late they have changed their opinion and ye and they temporize in conforming your opinions to the times and commensurate them to Politicall ayms for Toleration 3. Neither know we whether they will communicate with us at least their Writings and Letters from New-England which heretofore we have seen testifie no such thing so that in this ye dissent from them unlesse they within this yeer dissent from themselves 4. By the same reason ye may communicate with Schismaticks and men that are excommunicated amongst your selves for their ill life viz. drunkards blasphemous persons c. 5. By the same reason ye communicate with some Papists in profession that beleeve all that we beleeve in Doctrine 6. And with them all and all Hereticks in part because they agree in part in the Doctrine with us If it be replied That they with whom they communicate must also be of good life I duply then it is not a meer Communion in Doctrine but in some other thing beside viz. In good life And then 2. If they have both sound Doctrine and be of a good life or have Faith which causes good Doctrine and Charitie the cause of a good life Wherefore desire ye a Toleration to make a Sect apart or what desire ye more to make up one Church with them But howsoever ye pretend this reall Profession of Communion with us yet ye overthrow it by your restriction afterwards viz. To such as ye know to be Godly that came to visit you in your exile But ye will not admit all the Members of our Churches but such as ye onely judge not we to be Members of our Church Ye say in the same Section That ye Baptize your Children in our Parishionell Congregations Wherefore then will ye not as well communicate at the Lords Table with us all And if so Wherefore will ye not likewise admit us all to your Communion In the 8. § And as we alwayes c. In this Paragraph or Section ye shew the judgement of forraign Churches concerning you how ye both mutually gave and received the right â—â—â—ds of fellowship How they gave you Churches to Preach in some Priviledges a maintenance annually for your Ministers c. So here in England hitherto ye have had libertie to Preach in our Churches and may have if ye will and some of you have some Benefices But if ye go on ayming at a Toleration and consequentlie at some Separation as we have shewed I doubt if ye shall or should have any annuall allowance at all or Churches to Preach in as before you had Moreover we know not upon what grounds ye were tolerated in the Netherlands whether it was not in consideration of your precedent afflictions hoping that ye might submit your selves to Presbyteriall Government in your own Countrey if it were well establisht or in favour of some Merchants by publike or private authoritie Ecclesiasticall or Civill or other wayes Onely we say That many Sects are tolerated there Neither howbeit ye were tolerated in the Netherlands Polonia or Germany where many Religions are tolerated and permitted out of Civill respects Is it equitable ye should be tolerated here where there is one onely Religion professed and one Goverment as we shall see hereafter In the 9.10.11.12.13.14 ye give account of your Practices in publike Worship Church Officers matter of Government and Censures and your directive principles in all this Hence in the 15.16.17.18.19.20.21 ye infer your Conclusion of Independencie of every particular Congregation As for the parts of your publike worship we consent with you In your Church Officers ye acknowledge with us four viz. Pastours Teachers Ruling Elders and Deacons But ye lash us a little with your Parenthesis about our Ruling Elders With us not Lay but Ecclesiastique persons separated to that service Here ye seem to accuse the Reformed Churches in France the Netherlands Scotland c. as if they all esteemed them Lay and not Ecclesiasticall Persons If this be your minde it is a great mistake in you and we can produce their writings to the contrarie if not we know not to what end ye inserted this particular Parenthesis As ye therefore inserted yours so do we ours but not Preachers or Teachers of the Word And therefore we desire to know of you if Ruling Elders have power to teach as it is maintained by other Independents and if they Preach or Teach how they can be distinguished from Preachers and Teachers For all Charges receive their unitie and distinction from their Acts and Ends Wherefore if the Ruling Elder Preach or Teach which is the Act and End of the Preacher and Teacher he must have the same Office with Preachers and Teachers 2. The Apostle also distinguishes them 1 Cor. 12. Wherefore then confound ye them Ye adde in this 9. Section concerning Excommunication upon obstinacy and impenitency this Parenthesis as worthy of some particular observation which we blesse God we never used as if your Churches were so pure that not one man should deserve it We cannot say so much of our Churches Neither can your Brethren of New-England say so much of theirs We know that some have been Independenters as we our selves have heard from their own mouthes that now are become Anabaptists And whether such men merited it or not judge ye If they merited it ye have been very partiall and unjust in not using of it So that proceeds not from want of demerits in the persons to be punished but of justice in the Rulers to execute it Neither do we deny but a number of very holy persons may be gathered together who may so carrie themselves for some time as not to commit any great offence with pertinacie to deserve Excommunication if the choice be good But to say that it may last long so in Populous Congregations and in a great number of Churches ye may tell us this news when your Churches are multiplied and become as Populous and have endured as long as ours We could tell wonders also of our Churches in some parts in the beginning of the Reformation But the question is not who liveth holiest but whose Discipline is most conform unto Gods Word Your Directive Principles were three 1. Gods Word and
Here ye mistake for we can produce you sundry others of good note here Printed at London we are sorry ye have not seen them or disdained to read them If there were not many written before those it was in pittie of your afflictions whereunto good Divines would not adde new affliction Neither thought they your Partie so considerable Neither were your Opinions much known or published abroad being onely written in English and not in Latine except by one or two of your Divines for any thing I know Neither thought they that ye were so averse from their Discipline as ye appear in this Assembly but that ye suffered only for not conforming your selves unto Episcopall Government But whatever they have written I know not what this can serve to the purpose unlesse it be to declare That whatsoever helps ye had heretofore yet ye were destitute of those writings whereby ye might have received farther light concerning Presbyteriall Government and I pray God ye make good use of them In the 16. § at the end of the 16. Pag. Ye travell to remove an Objection viz. That in Congregationall Government such as is amongst you there is no allowed sufficient remedy for miscarriages though never so grosse no relief for wrongfull Sentences or Persons injured thereby no room for Complaints No Powerfull or Effectuall means to reduce a Church or Churches that fall into Heresie or Schisme c. To avoid this Objection ye relate us an History § 17. and what ye did upon such an emergent case But ye shew us no Law that ever ye had amongst you whereby ye might bring any remedie against such a miscarriage before that it fell out 2. Neither read we of any such Law or remedie in your Books before this 3. Your Divines and the Members of your Churches with whom we conversed shewed no remedie amongst you for such inconveniencies 4. They gave us no answer unto this Objection save onely this That God hath ordained no remedies in such Cases Yea that if Churches should fall away from Christ and with the Jews call him an Impostor and the Trinitie with Servet a three headed Cat and deny the Incarnation of the Son of God they should be tolerated Yea more That the Civill Magistrate should punish no man for his Religion be it never so bad or blasphemous and that it must be left to God And this giveth us reason to think That these Reasons within these two yeers have made you to refine your Opinion and to mould some new Solutions and to suite your Opinions more close to the current of the time then you were wont to do If therefore we speak after them it is their fault and not ours it may be that your Opinion be not common to you all but to you five alone The sum of the History is A Minister was suddenly deposed by his Flock whereupon some Churches did take offence and all their Churches consented in this Principle That Churches 1 Cor. 10.32 1 Tim. 5.22 as well as particular men are bound to give no offence neither to Jew nor Gentile nor the Churches of God they live among Item That in vertue of the same or like Law of not partaking in other mens sins the Churches offended may and ought upon the Impenitency of those Churches persisting in their errour and miscarriage to pronounce that heavy sentence against them of withdrawing and renouncing all Christian Communion with them untill they do repent And further to declare and protest this with the causes thereof to all Christian Churches of Christ that they may do the like In this Narration it appeareth 1. That this Church offending before this emergent Case knew not so much for if she had it is not credible that she would against all charitie and the common order of all Churches have committed so great a scandall 2. This remedie is not sufficient nor satisfactory 1. Because all Churches according to your Tenets be equall in Authoritie Independent one of another and par in parcm non habet Imperium none hath power or Authoritie over his equall how then could any Church binde another to any such account but out of its freewill as a partie may do to its partie 3. Because since other Churches were or pretended to be offended in such a proceeding they could not judge in it for then they should have been both judge and partie in one cause which cannot be granted to those that have no Authoritative Power one over another as when a private man offendeth the State and we our God 4. What if many Churches yea all the Churches should offend one should that one Church gather all the rest together judge them all and in case of not submitting themselves to her judgement separate her self from them all If so we should have Separations and Schismes enough which should be continued to all Posteritie to come 5. What if Churches were so remote one from another that they could not easily meet together upon every occasion Then there should be no remedy or at least no easie remedy 6. What if the Offence were small should so many Churches for every trifle gather together and put themselves to so great cost and trouble 7. What if the Churches in their Judgements should differ one from another in such a case should they all by Schismes separate themselves one from another 8. This sort of Government giveth no more Power or Authoritie to a thousand Churches over one then to a Tincker yea to the Hangman over a thousand for he may desire them all out of charitie to give an account of their Judgement in case he be offended by them Neither see I what more our Brethren grant to all the Churches of the World over one But the Presbyteriall Government is subject to none of these inconveniencies for the collective or combined Eldership having an authoritative Power all men and Churches thereof are bound by Law and Covenant to submit themselves thereunto Every man knoweth their set times of meeting wherein sundry matters are dispatched and all things carried by pluralitie of voices without any Schisme or Separation 9. This Government is a Power wherein the Partie is judged if he will and so the judgement of the Judges suspended upon the judgement of the Partie judged which is most ridiculous without any example in Ecclesiasticall or Civill Judicatories a judgement indeed not very unlike to that which is related of a merry man who said he had the best and most obedient wife of the whole World because saith he she willeth nothing but what I will and as all men wondred at it knowing her to be the most disobedient yea saith he but I must first will what she willeth else she willeth nothing that I will 10. This sort of Government is unjust and unreasonable for not onely the Partie judgeth its Partie but also it inflicteth the same punishment viz. Separation upon all offending Churches what ever be the offence great or small
you or of your or our Reformation but of the coming of Christ and the vocation of the Gentiles for howsoever the Fathers in the old Testament received the Promises yet received they not the accomplishment or performance of them viz. Christ manifested in the flesh who is that better thing reserved unto us whereof the Apostle speaketh there otherwise we should have perished § 23 24 25 26 27. Containeth an Enumeration of our Brethrens grievances whereof they have mentioned many heretofore 1. The mistaking and misapprehension of their Opinions wherein they might seem to differ We have answered already 1. It is not a mistake nor misapprehension to take and apprehend an opinion as it is propounded by the Partie as we have done 2. We answer That if we mistake or misapprehend any opinion it is not that of all Independents 3. It is a great mistake in you to imagine that ye be all of one opinion For ye five who are the Authors of this Book cannot agree among your selves how muchlesse with others 4. And we are assured that ye cannot but mistake one another 5. Here also must be noted your Parenthesis wherein we might seem to differ Then your differences from us were not reall but apparent If so wherefore then will ye not really agree and joyn your selves in Union and Communion with us And truely so it is either they are not reall or they are really ridiculous Pag. 23. Your second grievance is that ye are grievously calumniated with reproaches of Schisme Schisme is a Pertinacious Separation from the true Church after sufficient conviction And as Heresie as Heresie is repugnant to Faith so is Schisme to Charitie the one quitteth the unitie of the Faith the other the union in Charitie And as Heresie is evermore accompanied with pertinacy after sufficient conviction So is Schisme also If therefore the Synod or any other Assembly or any of your Brethren should convict you sufficiently and afterwards ye should separate your selves or desire a separation from us I think that no man could deny you to be Schismaticks neither beleeve I in such a case that ye would or could honestly deny i◠your selves But so long as the Synod or some others does it not I dare say nothing As for my self I beleeve truly that ye be very Learned Pious and honest Men and howsoever ye may fail by infirmitie yet beleeve I not that ye erre out of malice and consequently that ye are no Schismaticks hitherto And I hope and am consident that God will not permit that so good and godly men fall away from his Church And this I say by morall probabilitie because of the good opinion I have conceived of you by good mens relations and some observation of your carriages in the small conversation I have had with some of you If therefore any men out of too much zeal or others out of malice have uttered any such aspersion it is in your power by entertaining of a Fraternall union with us to give them the ly as I hope in Gods mercy ye will do § 24. Pag. 24 25. But ye prove That ye are not or cannot be Schismaticks by three Reasons The first is If ye be Schismaticks or culpable of Schisme Either it must relate say you to a differing from the former Ecclesiasticall Government of this Church established and then who is not involved in it as well as we Or to that Constitution and Government that is yet to come and untill that be agreed on established and declared and actually exist there can be no guilt or imputation of Schisme from it But none of these are true as ye have confirmed it Ergo. Answ Howsoever I hold you not yet for Schismaticks yet can I not think that ye prove it well For that dis-junctive proposition may be denyed as not containing a full enumeration of all the Causes or Reasons of Schisme for a Church may be Schismaticall not onely for her Separation from this or that Church but much more for her Separation from all Churches as your Accusers may say of you viz. That ye have quitted the Communion of all other Churches as well Protestants as Papists and that in case ye could not or would not joyn in union with Churches ruled by Episcopall Government ye might have joyned your selves with other Reformed Churches with which the Church of England entertained Union and Communion so that the greater your Separation was the greater was your Schisme Yet can it not be said that it was a Schisme formally but materially for it had not the essentiall forme or that which we conceive as the essentiall forme of a Schisme viz. Conviction and Pertinacy without the which Schisme no more can be made up then Heresie For it is Forma quae dat esse rei the Forme that giveth being to a thing Onely it had the matter or materiall cause of a Schisme viz. The Separation from all Churches which cannot make up a Schisme formally no more then a mans body alone which is his matteriall cause can formally make up a Man 2. Men may yet be called Schismaticks Materialiter Dispositivè matterially and dispositively or as having the disposition to Schisme when they cannot actually resist an actuall Government but are resolved without any sufficient cause to resist or controle that Government that they judge will be established by them who according to Gods ordinary Providence have power to do it And so your Partie may yet say that ye be culpable and guiltie of Schisme materially and by way of disposition if they see you aym at any Toleration which is the next way to Separation So they may Answer unto the confirmations of both the parts of your dis-junctive Proposition in denying both your Assumptions for many there be who separated not themselves from all Protestant Churches and that are not minded to oppose the forme of Government that is to be established much lesse to be suiters for Toleration Your second Reason to free your selves from the calumny of Schisme is this in substance § 24. Pag. 24. If ye had been guided by the spirit of Schisme ye had made up a Partie when ye had the occasion But so did ye not when ye had the occasion Ergo. Ye prove the connexion of your first Proposition Because such are practises of those that are led by the spirit of Schisme Ye prove the Assumption 1. Because that howsoever ye had great provocations viz. 1. Misunderstandings of your opinions 2. Incitements to this State not to allow you the peaceable practises of your consciences which the Reformed Churches abroad allowed you 3. Calumnies in Print 4. Heightned with this prejudice that ye were ashamed of your opinions or able to say little for them 5. Books printed against your opinions yet ye did it not 2. Because that having the occasion of manifold advantages to make and increase a Partie ye have not in the least sort attempted it Ye prove that ye had manifold advantages
SOME OBSERVATIONS AND ANNOTATIONS Upon the Apologeticall Narration Humbly submitted to the Honourable HOUSES of PARLIAMENT The most Reverend and Learned DIVINES OF THE ASSEMBLY And all the Protestant Churches here in this Island and abroad LONDON Printed for Christopher Meredith and are to be sold in Pauls Church-yard at the sign of the Crane 1643. TO The Right Reverend and Learned DIVINES THE AUTHORS OF THE Apologeticall Narration Right Reverend and dear Brethren THE high esteem I have ever had of your Persons and the great holinesse of your lives desiring ever to be such my self as I esteem you to be except onely in your particular opinions wherein ye dissent from all Protestant yea all Christian Churches in this World had almost hindered me from the publishing of these Considerations upon your Apologeticall Narration esteeming That it was not for any particular man such as I am to oppose himself to such a number of grave Divines of so great learning and so apparent Pietie But on the other part considering that you as my self are but men subject to humane frailtie that ye know but in part and consequently may erre in part I thought that this which is in question betwixt you and all the Churches in the Christian World might be a part of your aberration in part and of that which we know in part And upon this consideration esteemed it no lesse a part of my dutie and Christian libertie as a man to oppose my self to five men then for five men to oppose themselves to the common opinion of five hundred thousand to so many learned so many holy Divines hundreds and thousands for one of you no wayes inferiour to the learnedst and best amongst you And not onely to particular men and Divines but to so many yea and those the most pure and most Reformed Churches of the World amongst whom there have been found so many thousands who have sealed Christs Truth with the losse of their goods imprisonment of their bodies by the exile of their Persons yea with their dearest blood and lievs who if they wrought not miracles at the least God declared his Almighty Power in working miracles about them and upholding them Men of so great worth that the world was not worthy of them And howsoever these Motives be great yet wrought they not so much upon me as this That I am perswaded in my conscience that your opinion of Independency c. if it were admitted pardon my expression till I be better instructed by you or some others could not but prove the root of all sort of Schisme and Heresie and consequently the utter overthrow of Christs Universall Militant Church here upon Earth Besides all these considerations I had many more and amongst the rest your hard expressions against them that love and pity you your apparent resolution in desiring a Toleration of your Religion and consequently of a Separation from our Churches which howsoever they have power to hinder you yet condescend to be suppliants to you that you will entertain union and communion with them I may adde to all these your undervaluing of the Parliaments great Favours towards you for ye know Brethren how they notwithstanding all this and your former Separation from all other Christian Churches having taken to heart your hard usage in those evill times ye speak of howsoever in respect of your number ye be very few yea hardly the hundreth part yea not so much as one part of the Divines of this Kingdom in respect of your Separation invited you most lovingly to be Members of this present Assembly of the most learned holy and reverend Divines of both Kingdoms whereof had not they given you the capacity ye had been altogether incapable And not onely that but also having resolved to send two Divines from hence with their Commissioners to Scotland they honoured one of you with this high favour the greatest they could confer upon you at that time and so in effect did honour you with the half of the honour which belonged to all the Divines of the Kingdom And yet notwithstanding all these great testifications of so great and tender affections towards you ye five men five Members of the Assembly by whose Counsell and Instigation or upon what Motives we know not joyned your selves in a particular Combination without the knowledge of either Parliament or Assembly to draw up and publish unto the World an Apologeticall Narration as ye terme it containing in effect howsoever ye name it a singular desire of Separation from them that so cherish you with some unworthy Nick-names ye put upon them who stile you by no worse names then Brethren By such proceedings what else have ye done but erected an Assembly in the Assembly a particular Assembly in a publike Assembly by private Authority against publike Authority taking private Resolutions against all publike Resolutions whatsoever might be concluded either in Parliament or Assembly and in one word an Assembly to overthrow the Assembly These reasons joyned together with sundry others made me to think more then I say and to suspect that ye would say more then ye say And therefore laying all particular affections aside I resolved my self to publish these following Considerations and Annotations upon this your Apologeticall Narration which truely I do not out of any spleen against you God knows it for never one of you ever offended me yea I may say that I love you all from my heart and that in writing of this my soul is as it were rent in two parts my understanding carrying it one way and my will another Christs verity forcing the one and your singular piety alluring the other But I must conclude That it is better to follow God then man what ever he be or may appear to be and that the will that is but a blinde facultie must let it self be led by the light of the understanding which is the eye of the soul And as I write not out of spleen so may I attest him who seeth all things that I do it not to gain any mans affection or favour much lesse in hope of any other worldly ends and that if I did it to gain any mans love or friendship I am as much desirous of yours as any others No such ends moved me But if I have any knowledge of my self at this present at the writing of this Answer which yet I know is not such as it should be I may say That my main aym has been Gods glory and the edification of weak Brethren who may have been misled by your most learned Discourse esteeming that during the rest of my Pilgrimage which cannot be long having no other thing to do I shall do well to do this and so improve my Talent to his glory the Edification of his Church and the Salvation of my own Soul and so I remain Your very loving Brother in Christ A. S. Some Generall CONSIDERATIONS Upon the Apologeticall Narration I. WHether in any
and severe Tribunall and most Sacred refuge and Asylum of mis-judged innocence requireth not of you By Thomas Goodwin c. We have hereupon already expressed in the Epistle and in our seventh observation what many Learned and good men desire and what may be their judgement hereupon about you five Pag. 1. Now Members of the Assembly of Divines and this also we have touched in our Epistle and upon humbly submitted Notes upon the first Page Sect. 1. OVr ears c. Here beginneth this Apologeticall Narration which from this unto the ninth Section Page the fifth hath little or nothing materiall touching the questions in controversie betwixt our Brethren and us Onely it containeth a Narration of their godly wayes whereupon they have never been challenged by their Brethren that ever I could hear of filled with exclamations What can be these exclamations or exclamators we know not and therefore answers not Sect. 2. And now c. It may seem very probable to reasonable men 1. That it should have been more seasonable To have made this appearance into publike light before your entrance into the Assembly then so many Moneths after 2. Before your Brethren in submitting your spirit of Prophets unto that of the whole Assembly then in this extraordinary way unparalelled by any like unto it in the world 3. To have sought of them a Testimony then after this way to take it at your own hand and give it unto your selves lain under so dark a cloud Ye avow hereafter that it is vanished away so ye lose your pains in taking away a cloud that is no more See our fourth observation The Supreme Judicatory severe Tribunall the most Sacred Refuge and Asylum for mistaken and mis-judged innocence The Parliament indeed is all this in civill causes but it pretends no directive power in matters of Religion by teaching or preaching or judging of controversies of Religion nor any executive power that is intrinsecall unto the Church as in the Vocation Deposition and Suspension of Ministers in Ecclesiasticall Censures in Excommunication c. which are meerly spirituall but onely an executive coercitive and externall power which is not in but about the Church and for the Church whereby it compelleth refractory men to obey the Church And this authoritie belongs actually and in effect in actu exercito as they say jure in re to true Christian Magistrates but to others potentially in actu signate and jure in rem onely till they become true Christians In vertue of this Authority when Parties pretend to be offended by the Church or if the Church judge any thing amisse he may command the Church to revise and re-examine its judgement and to reforme it if it containeth any thing amisse And in this sense Constantine the Great refusing an unjust and exorbitant power that the Counsell gave to him said very wisely Vos in Ecclessa ego extra Ecclesiam Episcopus For he was no Ecclesiasticall Minister Overseer or Controller but Gods Minister in the State for the weal of his Church in the State which was not formally of the State howsoever materially it was in the State Wherefore if your meaning here be That the Parliament should judge of the questions in debate betwixt you and your Brethren ye go against the Parliaments intention which esteeming it self to have no calling of God thereunto very wisely did convocate an Assembly of Divines to that effect Neither beleeve I that ye will grant unto it and the Assembly both such an authority or if ye grant it I doubt if ye will submit your selves unto it And indeed to grant them such a power were nothing else but to joyn your selves with the Arminians who granted it to the Civill Magistrate when they thought to have had him for them and afterwards repented themselves when they found him against them Sect. 3. Pag. 2. The most c. To this Paragraph I have nothing to say but that it is the judgement of many very judicious and godly Divines That a Pastour is bound to stay with his Flock so long as he is not pressed to be an Actor in any thing against his conscience which many good men have done in this Kingdom and in so doing upheld many others Sect. 4. Pag. 2. Neither c. Here I note two things 1. Ye call other Churches your Neighbour Churches if so they are your sister Churches And then how is it That ye will not admit all the Members of their Churches unto your Communion at the Table of the Lord Will ye or dare ye communicate with them or not If ye dare how dare ye not admit them all unto your Communion If ye dare not how can ye hold them for Brethren with whom ye dare not eat or drink at that spirituall Feast of Brotherly Love and Charity 2. Ye tell us That for fear of violence and persecution ye made choice of a voluntary exile If this be said to excuse your departure I have nothing to say But if it be to blame them that notwithstanding all persecution remained in their stations I remit the Reader to the third Section onely I adde this That they who notwithstanding their personall persecutions remained in their Stations in confirming others are no lesse to be commended then ye Neither is the Souldier lesse valourous that standeth by his Colours fighting constantly and courageously to death then he that leaveth them flying away upon any imminent danger whatsoever whatever his affection be unto the cause And if they all had fled away what might have become of the poor Church of God in this Kingdom it might been that ere now Impius haec tam culta novalia miles haberet Barbarus has segetes Praised be God that it pleased him in his mercy to uphold those men in these dangers that they might be a means of upholding the Members of his Church here Yea who knoweth if in such corrupt times many things were not rather to have been tolerated which then could not be amended then their Stations to have been deserted so they had not been Actors in ill doing Neither was the watchfulnesse of those times so great but that many good men might enjoy and enjoyed in effect the Ordinances of Christ And howbeit it had been so yet was it not necessary therefore to make a Schisme in quiting the Communion of all other Churches abroad Many Divines hold also That the Minister of Christ ought not to fly away for his personall persecution but for that onely of his flock Sect. 5. pag. 3. This being c. In this and the next Section ye seem to come to the question in controversie viz. Unto Ecclesiasticall Government but it containeth nothing probative of your opinion but onely narrative of your enquiry and holy proceedings therein which ye willingly desire to perswade that it has been the most holy that could be found by flesh and blood in any juncture of time that may fall out as wanting no helps that could
to the Lords Table I answer That the true Reformed Churches in Scotland France the Netherlands c. receive no man to the Lords Table whom they judge to be prophane or scandalous none but such as give an accompt of their Faith and testifie it by externall Confession and Profession in Doctrine and Sanctification If any Preacher or the Consistory of Ruling Elders do other wayes it is not by rule or their ordinary practise but through their negligence which when it is known is condemned by all We wish that none come to the Communion of Christs Body amongst us but such as have and feel some measure of Christ in themselves But who hath this measure of Christ It is hard for any mortall man to know it but he onely that hath it It is likewise hard to know what measure of Grace is requisite to make up a member of Christ or of his Church Some of the Casuists esteem that it sufficeth a Roman Catholike explicite as they call it expresly cleerly and plainlie to beleeve this onely Article I beleeve what the Church beleeveth Others esteem it not enough and therefore adde this Article I beleeve also That the Church cannot erre Others think this yet not enough for they wish Christians to beleeve this one more viz. I beleeve there is a God Some adde one more viz. That they must beleeve Gods Providence c. We beleeve that men are bound to beleeve all Divine Truths revealed in Scripture as necessary to Salvation and to beleeve them by a justifying Faith But what be these that be absolutely necessary to Salvation What are these Fundamentalia Essentialia and Superstructories How may they be distinguished one from another What is maximum quod sic and minimum quod non Or minimum quod sic maximum quod non Or your least of Christ whereupon a man may be admitted to be a Member of Christ we cannot define it We leave the Decision to more subtle Spirits and to our Brethren who use those termes and who upon this minimum quod sic or least bit of Christ do found the Reception of Christs Members into the Church We esteem their Disputes too subtle in the practise of Christianitie in judging others And wish with the Apostle rather every man to examine and try himself For this directive Principle we esteem surer then that of our Brethren We esteem that such a Confession of Faith and desire of Communion as ordinarily is professed by them who are admitted in Protestant Churches may suffice Here in the second Instance of set Forme of Prayers our Brethren note with a Parenthesis that they condemn not others who approve set Formes of Prayers prescribed and the Liturgis But whether these of New-England and others of their Profession will not condemn them in this we know not I wish that this were not added rather in a compliance with the present time then otherwise Item They tell us That the framing of Prayers and Sermons out of their own Gifts are the Fruits of Christs Ascension But why not also of his death and Resurrection Since he did merit this by his death In their third Instance about Government and Ecclesiasticall Discipline we care not what they say The practise of the Orthodox Churches is this They have divers Ecclesiasticall Senats or Courts wherein some are coordinate and others subordinated one to another The loweest is their Consistory or Session of the Pastours and the Ruling Elders in one Parish Church Then they have their Classes which some call Colloques others Presbyteries made of all the Preachers of all the Parish Churches belonging to such Colloques every one of them accompanied with one Elder of his Church 3. Their Provinciall Synods made up of all the Ministers of the Province accompanied every one of them with one or two ruling Elders 4. The Nationall Synod compounded of a certain number of Ministers and Ruling Elders according to the exigence of time place and other occasions and circumstances Delegate from all the Provinces or Provinciall Synods In the Consistory or Senate of the Parish Church they judge onely of things that be proper unto it and of lesse importance that have no great difficultie In the Colloque of that which is common to all the Churches of that Colloque and of businesse of greater importance that cannot be judged or well determined in a Parish Church In a Provinciall Synod of that which is common to all the Churches of the Province other things of great importance and all cases that cannot so soundly or so surely be determined in the former Assemblies In a Nationall of that which is common to all the Churches of the whole Kingdom and others that cannot be determined in the precedent Assemblies as of matters of Appeal c. Item From the first if any of the Parties finde themselves grieved by its judgement they may appeal to the second as from the second to the third and from the third to the fourth And all these Judgements and Proceedings are without money charges pecuniarie mulcts or fines And as their ayms are spirituall so be their punishments that they inflict upon their Delinquents Their punishments are censures Suspension from the Lords Table and their greater Excommunication which ordinarily are never inflicted upon whole Churches as our Brethren unjustly would challenge us but on particular Persons If they had read the Discipline of the Scots French Netherlands and other Reformed Churches they needed not here have troubled themselves and us with so many mistakes Or if they have read them they deal not fairly with us In some Churches particular or Parochiall Senates or Consistories have power to suspend from their Communion those that be Members thereof yea also to Excommunicate them from the which sentence neverthelesse they may appeal unto the Superiour Senate or Judicatorie and that for some particular reasons But this question God willing we shall hereafter more fully discusse Onely I note in passing that our Brethren First are here too sparing of Titles to some and too liberall to others They name Cartwright onely Cartwright but Baynes holy Baynes in the same line as if they would Canonize the one making him Saint Baynes which we condemn in the Pope and esteem the other prophane or of the vulgar and dregs of Divines which as it is said with reverence and respect of the one so it cannot be said without disparagement of the other As for the distinction of Ecclesiae in Primas Ortas it requireth a particular Question apart They say 1. Every Church hath a full and entire power compleat within it self till it should be challenged to erre grosly Pag. 14. § 15. Either by a compleat Power ye understand a Power absosolutely compleat or in its own kinde or sort If ye understand the first it must be Independent for if it depend upon a Superiour to rectifie it whereunto it must give an account of its judgement and submit it self in
in case of Non-satisfaction whereas all punishments should be commensurate unto the severall offences 11. And so ye seem to approve the opinion of the Stoicks who held all sins to be equall since ye inflict the same punishment upon them all 12. Not onely this Discipline cannot easily be put in execution in great Kingdoms as England wherein all the Churches offended cannot so easily meet together but also 13. Because the person offended after he hath represented his grievances unto one Church and that Church having received satisfaction it may go to another and that Church likewise having received satisfaction it may go to another and so continually in infinitum to the Worlds end evermore taking those Churches for the Partie that judge it which is most absurde and foolish 14. What if the Partie offended be poor and have not the means to post up and down from Neighbour-Church to Neighbour-Church to pray them to make the offending Church to give an account of her Judgement muchlesse to attend upon their uncertain conveniencie Here will be found true Pauper ubique jacet whereas in Presbyteriall Government the Partie offended may easily be redressed and get satisfaction as not having need so to post up and down to be at so great charges or to attend their conveniencie for by a simple Appeal he may binde the Church offending to appear at the day appointed 15. What if there should fall out an hundred such Offences in a small time Must so many Churches evermore gather together for every one of them apart 16. What if Churches be poor and cannot be at so great expence Then in that case it should seem there is no order to meet with Offences And as for those precepts 1 Cor. 10. and 1 Tim. 5. The first of them is not a Rule of Government or ruling of the Church but a generall command common to all Christians whereby the Apostle forewarnes the Corinthians in things indifferent not to give any occasion of Offence unto the Church of God or to any other but therein to comply with all men as he doeth himself From whence ye cannot draw a Rule or Law of ruling the Church or how the Church should take order with such Offenders so that it sheweth indeed every mans dutie towards the Church in things indifferent but not the Churches dutie towards every one of them in judging or ruling Ye might as well have proved it from this Principle Fly from all evil or from that We must love God above all things and our Neighbour as our selves neither see I any greater connexion that it hath with the one then with the other And truely I cannot sufficiently admire how out of that Principle Give no offence ne to any man ye can inferre this conclusion Ergo a Church offended may make a Church offending to give an account of her judgement before all the world and in case of impenitency pronounce a Sentence of withdrawing and renouncing all Christian Communion with her and further to declare it to all other Churches No more can it be inferred of the other viz. Be not partakers in other mens sins for the Apostle there giveth rules about the Vocation of Ministers forbiddeth Timothy to receive any man rashly into the Ministery least in so doing he be the cause of an unlawfull Vocation because saith he vers 24. their sin and incapacity will soon appear to all men But how is it possible out of this to spin out the former Couclusion § 18. Pag. 17 ye prove your former Conclusion thus 1. For that ye saw no further authority in Scripture in proceedings purcly Ecclesiasticall of one or many sister Churches towards another whole Church or Churches offending 2. Because no other Authority can rationally be put in execution without the Magistrates power Answ 1. Ye saw no more in Scripture yea but saw ye your own Conclusion in Scripture 2. Truely we see no Word of God for it and if we take it not upon your word we shall never take it 3. If ye see no Scripture for it yet others may see 4. Ye may if ye will see it in the ordinary Practice of the Church of the Jews in the old Testament which is not abrogated in the New since it is not Ceremoniall but grounded in the Law of Nature Ye may see it in the History of the New Testament in the judgement given out at the Synod of Hierusalem concerning the businesse of Antiochia which I hope ye shall see cleerly demonstrated to you by a better hand before it be long 6. It may be proved by the Law of Nature which is a praecognitum to Scripture and supposed by Scripture for Grace is not destructory of Nature but a Superstructory above Nature So that when Scripture containeth nothing contradictory to the Dictats of Nature we are bound to believe them unlesse we will misbelieve God who is no lesse the Author of Nature and of the Dictats thereof then of Grace 2. Because no other Authority can rationally be put in execution without the Civill Magistrates power Answ 1. Our Brethren here as every where else stand very stiffly to Negations They never prove any positive Doctrine and it is known in the Schools how easie a thing it is to deny all things and to prove nothing If they had that to prove wherein they agree with us I suppose they should have more to do then we to prove that wherein they disagree from us But to take away all mistakes and captious Evasions we suppose that our Churches arrogate to themselves no Imperiall or Magisteriall but onely a Ministeriall Power or Authority 2. That it is meerly Spirituall consisting 1. in the Creation Suspension and Deposition of Church-Officers 2. in determining matters of Doctrine 3. in making of Ecclesiasticall Laws concerning things indifferent 4. in Ecclesiasticall Censures as in Suspension Excommunication c. They prove That no more can rationally be put in execution viz. then to call an offending Church to an account and in case of her impenitency to declare it to all other Churches Answ We deny the Assumption They prove it for that Christ gave no power to Churches to excommunicate their neighbour Churches Answ 1. This is again another mistake in our Brethren for they suppose that we excommunicate whole Churches which we never do 2. Neither believe I that they can bring us any examples of it The reason why we do not so is Because whole Churches ordinarily amongst us contemn not the superiour Ecclesiasticall Power viz. of Synods being bound by their Oath and Covenant to observe and maintain the Order of the Church 3. And therefore we have no Ecclesiasticall Laws concerning such cases for Lex est ordinatio rationis and Laws are not made of things that never fall out or of things that fall out extraordinarily but of things that are ordinary 4 Much lesse think I that ever any such case did fall out in any one of the Reformed Churches Item it is
another mistake to suppose that there is no Excommunication but in giving the offender over to Satan That is indeed the highest degree of Excommunication but not all the degrees of it for there is another lesse and inferiour viz. in separating him from Ecclesiasticall Communion And so it is yet another mistake in you to think that in declaring your non-non-Communion with other Churches ye do not excommunicate them for what is Excommunication but a privation of communion the very word it self teacheth us all this 6. If any such Case should extraordinarily fall out how can it be denyed but that the particular Church offending might be excommunicated by the rest of the Churches offended if the offence should deserve it 1. For we finde nothing in Scripture to the contrary 2. For there is the same reason for the Excommunication of whole Churches as of particular persons viz. the taking away of scandall and the conversion of the sinner 1 Cor. 5.5 2 Cor. 2.7 2 Thes 3.14 1 Tim. 1.20 and that such a contagion infect not others 1 Cor. 5 6 7. And if a particular man may be excommunicated for denying and blaspheming of Christ wherefore shall not a particular Church be excommunicated for the like sin Neither can their number and consociation excuse them but rather aggravateth the sin for the more offenders there be the greater is the offence and the greater should the punishment be 3. If a Church compounded of ten persons may excommunicate four of their own number wherefore also may not ten thousand Churches excommunicate this inconsiderable Church compounded of ten persons for the same reasons that it excommunicateth four persons hath God given more power to ten persons over four then to all the persons and Churches in the Kingdom yea in all the Christian world over these miserable and wretched persons who it may be deny the Trinity the Incarnation of the Son of God and maintain all sort of impieties 4. If God in Heaven and in his Scripture declare a Church excommunicated wherefore shall not his Churches upon Earth also declare it excommunicated when they learn it in his Word Are not the Churches of God as well bound to ratifie his Sentence here upon Earth as he to ratifie theirs in Heaven 5. We have some examples of it in the Old Testament for the people of God say some of our Divines excommunicated Amalck for proof whereof they bring the Targum Cant. 2. Contriverunt Amalek per diram imprecationem They bruised Amalek by the fearfull cursing of the Lord. So did they the Samaritans because of the building of their Temple upon the Mount Garizim They brought as Drusius and after him Weemse relate it 300 Priests 300 Trumpets 300 Books of the Law and 300 Boyes They blew with Trumpets and the Levites singing accursed the Cutthaans in the Name of Totragammaton or Jehova and with curses both the superiour and inferiour house of Judgement and they said Cursed is be who cateth the bread of the Cutthaean These Curses they wrote upon Tables and sealed them and sent them thorow all Israel who multiplied also this great Anathema upon them from whence proceeded a great hatred betwixt them as we reade in the Gospel If in vertue of a small offence one Church may pronounce that dreadfull Sentence of non-non-Communion against many Churches wherefore may not many Churches pronounce Sentence of great Excommunication against one small Church for a great sin since crescentibus delictis crescunt poenae Besides all this I deny the consequence for howbeit God had not ordained Excommunication viz. the greater which here ye understand yet might there be some other remedy found by the light of Nature But ye adde p. 18. That your Sentence of non-Communication will be as effectuall as the greater Excommunication This cannot be 1. Because if the offender have any grace the greater will terrifie him more 2. Because in your way the Sentence may seem unjust in punishing all offences and Offenders greater and smaller with the like Spirituall penalties 3. Your way cannot so well awe Churches and keep them in their duties for since ye attribute no authoritative power or authority to all the Churches of Christ over any particular Church but judge them all to be equall amongst themselves and one to all as if a part were equall to its totall and pars esset aequalis Toti Totum non esset majus quilibet suâ parte as if the part were equall to its whole and the whole were no greater then its part viz. a whole mans body then his toe a particular Church may think her self no ways bound to obey any other Church or Churches and much lesse will ten Churches think themselves bound to obey one for Obediecce is a vertue in Inferiours towards their Superiours But if all Churches be equall there can neither be Superiours nor Inferiours and consequently no obedience or disobedience 4. If a particular Church in your way desire to be obeyed by fourty Churches pretending her self to be offended by their proceedings they may think her bold in calling them to an account and that the spirits of Prophets should be subject to Prophets one rather to twenty or two thousand then twenty or two thousand to one 5. In our way a Church offending may esteem her offence greater and fear it more since she may judge her self to offend two Authorities 1. that of God and 2. that which he hath given unto the Church but in yours she cannot think her offence so great since she conceives her self to offend one authority or authoritative Power onely viz. that of God for ye acknowledge no authoritative power in the Church or Churches and so your way breedeth a plain contempt of all Church Authority 6. In denying an authoritative power the offender may think you too busie bodies in intermedling your selves with other folks matters which concerns you not so much whereas if ye granted an authoritative power unto her it should be her own proper businesse in vertue of her authoritative power received from God So also our way is more efficacious in the Churches offended 1. in breeding a greater detestation of sin 2. in making them to shun and avoyd more the company of the offender 3. in making them to conceive the Sentence to be more just c. Item if this your way be as efficacious ye need no other power in your particular Congregations over particular persons a simple admonition without any authoritative power may suffice you Ye yet say That your way is more brotherly in proceeding without an Authoritative power Answ God in the Old Testament ordained an Authoritative power in the Church and yet they were all Brethren and he knew well enough what power was convenient for Brethren 2. So likewise in particular Congregations we are all Brethren neither yet will ye banish out of them all Authority 3. 2 Kin 6.21 1 Cor 14 15 2 Cor. 6 13. and 12.14 Gal 4 19. 1 Thes
in the World for since it is publiei juris published they will assubject your judgement unto theirs by way of Agitation or disputing of it amongst themselves as much as all the Divines of England yea whether ye will or not Again Since both Houses were pleased to make you Members of that Assembly was not that a sufficient Justification and Vindication of your Persons from all calumnies spread against you and already scattered without speaking a word for your selves § 24. Pag. 24. Truely it is to be supposed that the two Houses would never recommend men thither either ignorant or vicious but the learnedest and godliest of the Kingdom so this your Apology is unseasonable Onely this needs an Apology That being Members of the Assembly ye will not submit your selves unto the Assembly of Divines but take odde wayes proper to you five alone to publish particular Apologies and desire a particular Toleration which no other Members of the Assembly do But as for this transeat cum coeteris crroribus It sufficeth that ye see extraordinary testimonies of the Parliaments and Assemblies most tender affection towards you how they have tolerated much in you the like whereof hath not yet been tolerated in any Member either of Parliament or of the Assembly and all to the end to chase away all pannick fears from your mindes and pretended disadvantages which ye did forcsee § 26. § 26. Pag. 28. Howsoever ye commend much the Parliament and declare That ye grant more to the Civill Magistrate then the principles of Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld Yet even here ye rap him over the Knuckles as if in making you Members of the Assembly he should have been partiall in placing you there with so many disadvantages yea as ye say And therein also upon all sorts of disadvantages which we could not but foresee both in number abilities of learning Authoritie the stream of publike interest Trusting God both with our selves and his own Truth Answ I maintain that the Parliament has done you no wrong for ye were not forced to sit there If there be so great disadvantages ye might have chosen whether you would have sit there at all or not All rationall men think it a great favour which ye esteem so great a disadvantage And as for the Number 1. Think ye that the Parliament ought to have put in such a Number of you that agree not in your opinions amongst your selves as might have over-swayed all the Divines of the Kingdom to the end that ye might afterward have compelled us all to quit the Kingdom as your Friends of New-England have done to others 2. Were ye to be compared in number with the rest of the Divines in this Kingdom who are hundreds for one of you Justice consisteth not in an Arithmeticall but in a Geometricall propertion which here has been observed towards you and that with more equitie then Justice 3. Neither did the Parliament hinder you to call as many Divines of your Profession as pleased you to consult with apart 4. Neither need ye so great a number in the Assemblie for ye seem not for any thing we can see resolved to submit your selves or to acquiesse with any pluralitie of voices either of Parliament or Assemblie wherefore then desire ye so great a number As for Abilities in Learning 1. Ye might also have had with you if it had pleased you as many learned men as ye could finde 2. Neither beleeve I that any others of your Profession could prudently take such a businesse in hand without you Who ever knows you knows well ye want no abilities to dispute your opinion in any Assemblie in Europe Men of learning and of wisedome therefore think that you speak this rather out of modestie then otherwise What ye understand by Authoritie I know not it cannot be Ecclesiasticall since ye acknowledge none in the Church Then it must be politicall and namelie that of the King and Parliament since that no other at this present have power over you and then I could wish ye had spoken more considerately Publike interest Either this must be taken of publike interest in Religion and then it 1º or should be our sole aym and it is no disadvantage for you That both the Parliament and the Assemblie be led by this Interest Or in State and then ye wrong both the Parliament and the Assemblie as if they measured Religion by Worldlie Ends and Interests wherein in ye are not to be beleeved Neither will we retaliate unto you that you may have some further Interests yet that we know not of And consequentlie ye need not to fear for your Persons as if ye were in danger or had subject to fear persecution as in former time § 27. Pag. 28. Ye excuse your selves from false Doctrine whereof no man accuseth you § 28. Ye tell us that the Difference betwixt you and us is not so great the lesse it is the lesse should ye be suiters for a Toleration and if ye obtained it the greater should be your Schisme § 28. Pag. 30. Here also ye excuse your selves that ye have not made a Scholastique Relation of your Judgement whereunto we have already answered and in so doing your opinions remaining lesse known hardly can they be distinctlie refuted § 28. Pag. 39 30. Afterwards ye require two things of the Parliament That it will look upon you under no other Notion or Character then as those who do as little differ from the Reformed Churches and your Brethren yea far lesse then they do from what themselves were three yeers past or then the generalitie of this Kingdom from it self of late 2. Ye require an allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse Answ And we pray you do as they have done to the end the Parliament may look upon you as they do upon them 1. They never condemned all the Protestant Churches as ye do 2. They never desired a Toleration to make a Separation as ye do 3. Either they approved not the ill of the times past but patientlie endured it according to their light hoping and praying to God for better without Schisme 4. Or approved it but when it pleased God in his mercy to illuminate them they disapproved what before they had approved of and changed from worse to better which if ye do O what a joy shall it be unto them and to us all and what a contentment may it bring unto your selves And finally As for the latitude and tolerance ye sue for it is unjust and most pernicious both to Christs Church and the Kingdom as we have hear already cleerly demonstrated FINIS