or three yeares together in secunda Epist and Episc orient Hence also care was taken afterwards that none but Bishops should make this the Presbyters must not dare to doe it Sylvester in Concil Rom. Also holy Vestures for the Ministers to be used onely in the Churches many of ours never owned these Epist Steph ad Hil. all have cast them away Also in the Lords Supper the mixing of water with the wine which how ever some say it was because of the hot Countries yet Alexander who they say was the first that mixed water with wine Epist ad omnes Ortho. Apol. 2. doth not give that reason but because water and blood came out of Christs side In Justin Martyrs time it seemes this was their manner also but this was not the Institution Also we find severall Church-officers among them as appears by Gaius Bishop of Rome who ordered that all the orders in the Church must ascend from the door-keeper to the Bishop Ostiarius Lector Exorcista Acolythus Subdiaconus Diaconus Presbyter Episcopus The ordination of these Officers with their Ceremonies are after set downe in the fourth Councel of Carthage If the Decretals of Gaius be of any Authority all these were in primitive Churches before Constantine came to the Empire More things I might adde but I forbeare And though there were many glorious Martyrs yet all their Church-members were not such many did yeeld to the heathenish Idolatry when persecution began yea and there were foul sins among them Churches as Adultery Whoredome yea even among those who had beene Confessors as Cyprian affirmes ingemiscimus saith he to see it drunkennesse swearing and what not as any one may well gather who is but a little versed in Antiquity De unita Eccles and by reading over the Canons made in their Councels we may learne what they were troubled with As for the Ministers they also were ordained by Bishops though they were not such lordly ones as ours were with Presbyters joyning with them this no man can deny that knows any thing of those times whence then I am bold to affirme that if there were true Ministers and true visible Churches in those times even while they were under persecuting heathenish Emperours then there are true Ministers and true visible Churches now in England and if there be none now neither were there any in those times but I thinke no man is so impudent to deny that there were true Ministers and Churches in those times I plead now for many Presbyteriall Ministers and their Congregations So I have done with my second Argument which if I should draw into forme it runnes thus If there were true Ministers and true visible Churches in the first three hundred yeares after Christ then there are true Ministers and visible Churches now in England But the Antecedent is true ergo the consequent is true Some we have that dote they tell us they expect men to be sent from God and endued with extraordinary gifts as were the Apostles c and these are the men who shall set up Churches and reforme us Good Lord whither will our vile hearts carry us if thou dost leave them These persons are not worth the answering but yet let me say a little to them and so passe on to the chiefe thing I intend For the gift of Tongues I need not speake what is necessary God hath given to most and many excell in that gift For Miracles I They were given but for that time to help on the worke of the Ministry as sauce doth meat but now if God doth that by the Ministry of his Servants without Miracles which he did then by the Ministry accompanied with Miracles viz. Convert Edifie Formalize c. this doth but more confirme our Ministry and prove that God ownes these despised Ministers The plaine word preached hath made as good Christians as preaching and Miracles 2 If any Body hath need of the gift of Miracles then Master Eliot in New England hath who now preaches to the Indians and others with him but God carrieth on his worke amongst the Indians without miracles 3 Doe not you your selves beleeve the Scriptures to be the Word of God if so what need have you of such kinde of persons so gifted The greatest Miracle which I desire to confirme me in the truth of the Scriptures is to finde the power of Christ his Death and Resurrection in my heart without which I care not for miracles But enough for these There are others who having been Members of an Independent Church where divisions have fallen out and so have broke in peeces they have said that Ministers are not fitted with a spirit of Government to keep Churches in order and therefore these are not times as yet for such Reformation I answer 1 The more shame for your church-Church-Members who are of such proud and turbulent spirits that godly and able Ministers are not able enough to governe them those who come into Church Communion with the awe of God upon their hearts we can governe them some such spirits we finde among the Independents but if we could see more it would be better 2 I wonder not at your Divisions when I see what Principles some godly Congregationall men have gone by for the ordering of their Church Government 3 Your Argument is as strong against the Apostles for there were Heresies and Schismes in their dayes But I leave these and return to that from whence I have made a digression Having then proved there are true Ministers and Churches in England let us examine the grounds why these men separate from these Ministers and Churches I conceive their grounds may be referred to one of these heads Either to The Ministers Either to Or Worship Either to Or the Congregation Either to Or the place of meeting If there be any thing else that cannot so well be reduced to one of these yet I am sure I shall meet with it before I have done For the Ministers they are indeed made the Dung of England who are more scorned then they especially the Presbyteriall men be they never so holy or learned Whether there be just cause in respect of men I leave it to God to judge I am sure when Ministers were in honour we found the Word had good effect but since they came to be thus scorned little good hath been done I deny not but God may have a just quarrell against us and give me leave without offence to propound the Reasons why 1 The first I had rather conceale because I should seem to spy out a mote in my Fathers and Brethrens eyes when I have a beame in my owne but therefore I rather propound it as I heard it from a Reverend and judicious Divine a man of a gracious and moderate spirit Mr. Nathaniel Rogers in New England I was talking with him there when the newes came of the Covenant that England and Scotland entred into the thing pleased him and all our
any power invested with Authority but if they injoyne a thing to bee done and it be refused that Authority will reach further Authoritas cogit as is the kind of the Authority Civill or Ecclesiasticall Blessed Burroughs in answering to that which some would have Iren. p. 44. scil that a Synod may formally excommunicate because by excommunication they i.e. Hereticall Churches are put out of the Kingdome of Christ into the Kingdome of Satan and this will terrifie saith consider whether this be not done before and that with an authority of Christ by those former six things mentioned in the page before for Hereticall Congregations or persons are judged and declared in a solemn Ordinance by the Officers of Christ gathered together in his name to be such as have no right to any Church Ordinance to have no Communion with any of the Churches of Christ now if this judgement be right are not such persons or Congregations put out of the Kingdome of Christ and put under the power of Satan consequently Certainly this cannot be a ground of such difference shall Non and Ex make such a stir when Non is as bad as Ex I should judge my self I am sure to be in as bad a case by the one as the other though for my part this notion of Catholike-visible-Church hath made me ready to yeeld to Synods juridicall power I could I say yeeld it and yet not differ from these reverend Divines if they follow home their non-communion close Now if you say what doth this helpe against Hereticall Congregations though you have proceeded to Non-communion they regard it not but still go on in their Heresies and leaven others to that they wil say what do they care for your excommunication if all the Hereticks in England were excommunicated they would not care but go on still Indeed our New England Divines will teach us a way how to helpe it viz. if a Synod hath declared against an Hereticall Congregation being pertinacious and so hath proceeded to non-communion they will call in the Civil power to help and so they have a way to help by their non-communion and this must be the help of them though they be excommunicated This Mr. Norton intimates Resp ad Apol. 148 Keyes 50 Iren. c. 4. Mr. Marshal relates that Zuinglius in a publick dispute did so stop the mouthes of the Anabaptist that they appearing to the Magistrates unreasonably obstinate were banish d the City Defen ag Tomb. 58. Ecclesiae appellant Magistratum in causis Ecclesiae non ad doctrinam declarandam vel disciplinam exequendam sed ad doctrinam a Cencilio declaratam vel disciplinam ab ecclesiâ applicatam sanctione Civili confirmandam The dury which Mr. Cotton sheweth to lye upon the Civill Magistrate inferres as much As also Mr. Burroughs And thus it was in New England when the Synod at which the Civill Power was present as to hear so to keep civill order had consuted and condemned the Errors and Heresies and so was broke up then a Generall Court was called which soon suppressed those Heresies and brought the Churches to peace again If the Civill power would do as much here we should soon see our Churches in better order What Civill Magistrates have done in this ease before I need not mention books are full It s true the Churches were when there was no Civill Power to defend them but oppose them but we can finde how many Heresies and Schismes they were then troubled with shall the Church be in no better case under a Christian Civill Power Nursing-Fathers then at that time 6 Doe the Classicall godly men looke upon their Congregations having visible Saints among them to be true visible Churches so doe the Congregationall men judge them also I gave instance before 7 Would then the Classical brethren have their members being such as have right to the Ordinance to partake with Congregational Churches in the Lords Supper to shew their communion certainly so they ought but why Congegationall men doe refuse godly men members of Classicall Churches not admitting them to the Lords Supper when they have desired it is very strange to me I wish our reverend Brethren would give us solid grounds for this practice for it gives offence and that justly a Preface to survey ch dis Mr. Hooker and b Iren. p. 266. Mr. Burroughs have both said they should be admitted Shal a Church be acknowledged to be a true Church where Doctrine and Worship is pure also this person a member of it a visible Saint it may be a real Saint and shall he be denyed communion 8 For Classes Pref. surv ch dis the Congregationall men say Consociation of Churches is not onely lawfull but in some cases necessary So Mr. Hooker Mr. Cotton speakes fully to this Keyes p. 54 55. weighty matters such as Election and ordination of Elders excommunication of an Elder or any person of publike note the translation of an Elder from one Church to another it is an holy Ordinance to proceed with common consultation and consent I suppose thus much might have beene obtained of the Classical-brethren that though in cases of weight as excommunication they would not have such an Ordinance carried on by one Minister but have the thing seriously examined first and debated in a Classis yet when the thing had beene concluded upon they would leave the execution of the sentence to the officer or officers of the Church where the case lyeth If so much might be obtained I should be very farre from opposing a Classis I would not willingly live without one I know of no other material point of difference as for the first subject of the power of the Keyes that is but a notion though its true much practise depends upon it yet I finde not that our Divines here would have the fraternity to be the first subject by their owning of Mr. Cotton his booke of the Keyes for Mr. Cotton makes a Church organized to bee the first subject and not the Fraternity as is apparent in divers places of that booke The summe is I wonder at our differnces well might that worthy Divine say in his letter to me from New England It s the wonderment of this side of the world that you that are godly and may agree yet will not surely the cause lyeth more in the Will then any thing else Give me leave therefore I pray to make my humble request to our Reverend Divines the Congregational-men that they would please to close in with the Classical brethren and not suffer these groundlesse differences to trouble the Churches any longer If you aske Why doe you make your request to us are we the cause why they are not bealed I cannot thinke the cause lyes onely in the Ministers nay I have heard long since there had been an agreement among the Ministers had not some others that live by divisions broken it but whether all Ministers are of the
must not goe to them but similia ad pompam non ad pugnam The Analogie betweene a Commonwealth and the Church will not hold as I may touch afterward but this I am sure according to that practise that seven make a Church they may admit five or six whole Churches and a Pastor chosen by none of them may administer the Sacrament to them all at one time but doe we finde whole Corporations goe to the Mayor of another Corporation for Justice Mr. Philips Pastor of the Church in Water-town while Mr. Wilson Pastor of the Church of Boston was here in England went to Boston and administred the Lords Supper to that Church I was not then in the Country but I heard of it soone after when I went over with Mr. Wilson I know no sin in that act I thought to have given some Instances how frequent this was in the Primitive Churches Vind. Cath. Ã 192 ad 196 for one Minister to act officially beyond the people who elected him But Mr. Hudson a man far more able hath set down those examples which I would have given and many more to whom I referre the Reader Yea it was ordinary for the members of one Church to dwell one or two yeares nay six or seven yeares in another Towne and to partake of the Sacraments there as frequently as any of the members of that Church Indeed of late the Elders have not liked this to have them live so remote from the inspection of their owne officers and therefore have required such to joyne with the Church where they dwell this is good and orderly The letters also of Recommendation which the Churches make for the members when they come over hither requiring of the Churches here what communion counsell or comfort they shall need promising the performance of the like debt to others c. 2. Also I saw if a man were excommunicated out of one Church he stood excommunicated out of them all but if a man be disfranchised in one Corporation another Corporation may receive him and give him his freedome if they please this shews there is something more in a Church then in a Commonwealth 3. I saw they preached frequently in other Churches but that it should be onely as gifted brethren this is so harsh to conceive I pray what act doth the mayor of one Corporation do in another Corporation like this that carries authority in it and that here we must distinguish of the Mayor if he did this at home he did it as a Mayor authoritatively but in this Corporation he doth it as a private man Further they are Ministers or Pastors onely to those who elect and the fraternity only elect where there is no officer but there are divers in the severall Townes who are not joyned to the Churches so they did not elect then it seemes they preach as pastors onely to those who elected but to the rest of the Towne as gifted men consequently when God blesses their labours to the conversion of any of those they convert them instrumentally not as Ministers of Christ ordained separated to that worke but onely as gifted men yea they never convert any as Ministers unlesse some of those who elected them be close hypocrites and so they convert them but ordinarily those who choose are reputed godly already and they are Ministers only to them Hence rises that vile notion that some here have taken up That Pastors should preach onely to the edification of the Saints not to others 4. I have heard since I came away that when people have chosen an Officer and had no Officers to ordaine him that the Ministers of other Congregations have done it and the Confession of Church-discipline by the Synod of New England as also Mr. Hooker Survey part 2. pag. 59. allow as much 5. If one Congregation should prove pertinaciously scandalous and hereticall then though they doe not formally excommunicate such a Congregation yet all the Churches in the Country would proceed to the non-Non-communion of such a Church and for all the Churches to expresse so much to such a Church We do all renounce communion with you c. this amounts to a censure and is equivalent to excommunication containing in it all the effects that appear in excommunication and so I should reckon my selfe as much excommunicated Mr. Burroughs saith They may by a solemne act in the name of Christ Iren. 43. refuse any communion with them till they repent They may declare in the name of Christ that these erring Churches are not to be received into fellowship with any Churches of Christ nor to have communion one with another in the Ordinances of Christ all this solemnly in Christs name Onely some may be will say if this be an Ordinance of Christ bring out the texts to prove this and then we shall see if those texts wil not beare it out that the Churches united thus in this censure have not some authority over that particular Church If you goe to the old politie the Synedrion had power over particular Congregations if to light of nature that will carry it so that we must have texts to decide this Question For my part I must leave this to better heads Laying all together the Churches seeme to pactise as if there were such a Church Some things there are which a little trouble me in this notion that make me not come off so roundly in receiving it I question not the Church-catholicke-visible but I meane that it is one organicall body but as he said Veritas est temporis filia so I beleeve Time will cleave out this but so much I see as commands me to lean to that side I was thinking how dangerous this might prove If the major part of the Catholick-visible-church should decline grow superstitious c. other Churches yet remaining pure if they did not subject to the major part what then but I saw inconveniences also on the other side if a Congregation be so entire that they can elect ordaine and are exempted from all power then Arians Photinians and all manner of Hereticks may elect ordaine c. who shall deny them and besides suppose the major part of Congregationall Churches should decline they would proceed to non-Non-communion of other particular Churches more pure and this is in a manner all one Further If so then if a Minister be removed from one Congregation to another or if his people should dye he now is but a private person and may nor baptise c. Hence also he must have another ordination when elected and as oft as he is elected I have not heard any there but here alleadge it I confesse I am not cleare in the practise I have searched to finde what Scripturall grounds there were for it but I find none that these Reverend Elders expresse some have alleadged in conference that Act. 13.3 Paul and Barnabas were ordained before and now they are ordained againe but I finde Mr.
Separation Examined OR A TREATISE VVherein the grounds for Separation from the Ministry and Churches of England are weighed and found too light The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable but likewise so hurtful to the Churches that Church-Reformation cannot with any comfort go forward so long as such Separation is Tolerated Also an humble request presented to the Congregational Divines that since the differences between them and the Classical-Divines are very small they would please to strike in with the Classical-Divines in carrying on the worke of Reformation before the Inundation of these corrupt Opinions have destroyed both Ordinances and Religion By Gi. Firmin Minister to the Church in Shalford in Essex 1 Cor. 1.10 Now I beseech you brethren by the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that yee all speake the same thing and that there be no Schismes among you Judicabit autem eosqui schismata operantur qui sunt immanes non habentes Dei dilectionem suamque utilitatem potius considerantes quà m unitatem Ecclesiae propter modicas quaslibet causas magnum gloriosum corpus Christi conscindunt dividunt c. Irenae l. 4. c. 62. Cavenda sunt autem fratres dilectissimi non solum quae sunt aperta manifesta sed astutae fraudis subtilitate fallentia c. haeteses invenit schismata quibus subverteret fidem veritatem corrumperet scinderet unitatem Cypr. de unit Eccles LONDON Printed by R. I. for Stephen Bowtell at the Bible in Popes-head-Alley 1652. The Contents THere are true visible Churches in England pag. 1 There is a true Gospel-Ministry in England pag. 4. The grounds of Separation must be either in the Ministry Worship Congregation or Place of meeting p. 12 The Ordination of the Ministers by Bishops can be no ground for Separation p. 22 There can be no ground in the Worship being singing of Psalms is here touched p. 32 There can be no ground in the Congregation though many wicked persons be there Nor in the place of meeting p. 39 The Proposals of the Separatists what they would have are set downe and answers returned as 1 They would have Ministers lay downe their former Call and joyne with them then they it may be will elect them and ordaine them where this question is handled p. 46 Quest Whether election only gives the essentials to a Minister and Ordination be but an Adjunct p. 50 Whether the People have power to Ordaine p. 70 Whether the Fraternity be the first subject of the power of the Keys briefly touched p. 73 2 They will have an explicite Covenant which they call the forme of a Church p. 81 3 No Church-Members but visible Saints p. 82 4 Power in Admissions and Excommunications p. 83 5 Liberty to Prophesie p. 84 6 Liberty of Conscience p. 88 How it appeares that Church-reformation cannot with comfort proceed so long as the Separation is Tolerated p. 91 The Separatists are no such-friends to the Civill Power as is pretended p. 94 The Questions propounded to the Separatists in reference to their Separation p. 97 The agreements and differences with and between the Classicall and Congregationall Divines are reviewed their agreements found to be many their differences very few p. 100 Whence an humble request is presented to the Congregationall Divines speedily to joyne with the Classicall Divines backed with seven reasons p. 108 To the Reverend the Ministers of London the Authors of the Vindication of the Presbyteriall Government and Ministry c. Printed 1650. Fathers and Brethren THe goodnesse of God manifested of old to England in causing the Sun of his Gospel to rise early upon this Nation and to finde such entertainment in the hearts of the Supreame Power that it was the first Nation that ever received the Gospell with the countenance of publick Authority having the first Christian King that ever was is knowne to the whole Christian world his goodnesse in these latter dayes since he tooke from our necks the Anti-christian yoke hath been also wonderfull honouring the Ministers of his Gospel with such Holinesse Learning Ministeriall abilities and successe in their labour in converting many and setting up the power of godlinesse in this Nation that he hath not honoured any Nation more nay without pride it may be spoken his Free Grace hath not honoured any Nation so much in these respects as this English Nation but now in our dayes the Ministry which God hath thus honoured is as much dishonoured and that by such who cannot but acknowledge their owne mouthes have spoken it that what Spirituall good they have received it was wrought by the Ministry and now we finde scorning deriding separating from the Ministry and many not so much as stepping over their thresholds to heare them who were the first instruments of their good if they have any as some we hope have and yet the Ministers are the same they were before yea some repenting that ever they bestowed so much paines and time to follow the Minister as one that lives but foure or five miles from Dedham hath said He repented that he followed that eminent Servant of God Mr. Rogers so much to heare his preaching While I observed these things and considered into what a sad condition we are fallen and read over your Vindication in which I saw a holy meeke and true Christian spirit breathing calling upon the Congregationall men to joyne with you certainly I thought that Booke deserved a courteous Christian answer from the ablest of our Congregationall men what they have done towards it I know not being little acquainted with affaires abroad being locked up in much sadnesse of spirit at home but I thought with my selfe that being I was numbred among the Independents though I am the weakest and most worthy the holy Lord should turne me out of his holy Work laying other things together which I have mentioned in the Epistle to the Reader I resolved to improve the little Talent the Lord had given me in examining the grounds of these practices and to stand up in the defence of such Ministers who I saw were deare to Christ and whom in holinesse learning and abilities the Lord had honoured farre before my selfe And now my Fathers the quarrell is not only with you because you are Presbyteriall Ministers the quarrell is with the whole Ministry for this spirit hath infected even some in New England and I beleeve will cause more troubles there in those Churches then ever the Bishops did though they threatned them much What are the practices of some and what are the feares of the worthy Ministers there I understand by Letters I doe not I dare not censure the Congregationall Churches here some of the Ministers I know to be holy and reverent I wish I had such grace many Members no doubt are really godly but had I not lived in New England and seene the Churches there by what I heare of divers and what I know by some Churches here
he can see more holy and able then himselfe and hence he feares himselfe and conceives such men being so holy and neare to God I feare he may reveale that to them which he conceals from me Now then if you can bring us men who expresse all these and walke truly by these rules you shall not need to goe to the State to get an Act for Toleration of tender consciences for I doubt not but Churches will be very tender of such God seldome leaves these to drink in any vile errour if for a time they be mis-lead he will discover his minde to them ere long I am assured But alas how farre are our people from these things I doe not rehearse them over againe but either let these be disproved to be no rules to judge by or if they be there are not ten as I said of such scarce to be found in England who separate from the Ministry and Churches and have betaken themselves to their private houses yea if we goe to our Congregationall Churches and examine these who plead for Liberty of Conscience we shall hardly finde these Rules observed The summe is you see if indeed you be right conscientious men and lead by a pure Conscience in the points wherein you differ you shall have that liberty that Christ would have allowed you and none will Domineere over your Consciences I know of nothing more can be alledged but I thinke I have taken in all that is brought against the Ministry and Churches It may be some would be apt to cast in this That the Ministers are no friends to the State ergo c. I shall not stay to give any answer to this more then thus 1 The Separatists were before this Government was erected to be sure the leaven of all was layed if not all actually separated 2 Where there are Ministers who are friends to the State it is all one for they separate for all that 3 Matters of State differ from the Church matters and they were also very intricate and darke especially as some conceive the Covenant and Protestation having been taken before therefore in intricate things more time should have been given till you had seene God tying a knot upon things 4 I know that many Ministers had not hung off so from the State but that they saw such Separatists to be wincked at they thought too much Obj. But you will say Grant all this that their grounds are insufficient why cannot you goe on in the worke of Reformation set up Discipline c. and let these alone how doe these hinder your worke from going on comfortably Ans If their grounds be insufficient Schisme was esteemed a great evill in the Apostles times those little matters in the Church of Corinth not comparable to ours how doth the Apostle speak against them so in the Ages after as may be seene in August contra Permeni c. Irenae saith Nulla ab eis tanta fieri potest correptio quanta est Schismitis pernicies l. 4. c. 26. So our Divines of late against the Papists to prove they were not guilty of Schisme have laboured strongly but outs doe but phansie grounds and make a tush at Schisme then why doe they not come backe againe to the Churches from which they have departed but before I give the answer let these things be observed 1 Few of these who have any true good in them but must and have acknowledged they have received it from the Ministers yea in those times when there was much more corruption in the Churches then now 2 Since they have left their Ministers they have got nothing many lost the savour once they had and some their comforts that were true and some of these I know have come home againe generally they run out of one errour into another that is their thriving 3 I never heard of one true Convert that was ever brought home to God amongst them all indeed the Principles they maintaine will not stand with sound conversion for no Law must be to awaken men and shew them their vile condition naturally worke of faith is easie teach no duty but all Christ as if men could truly teach Christ and no duty these things speake enough against them But I answer further If the Classicall and Congregationall men would but joyne together as they may if they will and set upon that worke they might doe something notwithstanding these persons but yet they cannot comfortably hold so long as these are tolerated Quest Why what harme have these done or will they doe Ans I shall tell you under severall particulars 1 They have much weakned the hands of the Ministry in the worke they were once the joy of their Ministers their Crown and had they held close to them still holding up their old Principles and walking reverently they had very much comforted their hearts and strengthened their hands now they came to the worke of Reformation they could in time of Persecution when Ceremonies and such trash abounded cleave to them and to those who were silenced they were a comfort but now those who should have joyned with their Ministers and carried on the worke with joynt prayers they are gone Cyprian compares the unity of the Church De unitâ Eccles 1 Kings 11.30 to Christs Garment which had no seame nor was divided Schisme he compares to the Garment which Abijah rent in twelve peeces that was not good for Salomons house how did it weaken the Nation thus have these rendings weakned our Churches exceedingly Vis unita fortior 2 They are now turned the greatest Persecutors the Ministers have for tongue persecution it is wheeled about and resides in this Generation Puritans Precisians were the old termes but now the termes are Baals-Priests anti-christians Priests and Black-coates are the soberest termes besides other jeeres and scoffes nay yet worse many of these would have the Ministers utterly rooted up we heard of a Petition drawne up by some of them to be presented to the house for that end they have threatned us what they would doe and I doubt not if the State would give them their wills this should be their first vote Down with the Ministry so that all the old Persecutors were not comparable to these they would have some downe but honour the calling these would cut downe all 3 They are the Nurseries of all Errous and Heresies where is there one society that is not tainted who can tell how grosse they are though we know many grosse enough for they meet in private houses who can tell what they vent there but if they get into Pulpits then they will vent something and thence we may guesse of the rest some of them have spoken a gainst the Scriptures yet some againe would have the Apocrypha to be Canonicall as a company of Anabaptists spent the after-noon of a Lords day to prove the Apocrypha to be so the London Ministers have set downe some bad enough in their
liberty yet he so ordereth their liberty that our Ministers would be glad if they had their Churches governed as is the Church whereof himselfe together with Mr. Na. Rogers are officers these are Congregationall men De schismate I will not rehearse what I finde in Camero because he wrote before these times and will be reckoned for a Presbyterian foure grounds he gives for separation none of which I am sure our Separatists can alleadge 1. Grievous and intolerable persecution 2. When the Church is Heretical 3. When Idolatry is set up 4. When the Church is the seat of Antichrist I shall conclude with a speech of his Vt nihil aequè arguit ingenium spiritus Christi ac studium conservandae societatis unionis in quo charitas elucet sic etiam nullum est evidentius argumentum pravitatis ingenii humani unde inter carnis opera contentienes nominantur quà m tumultuandi rixandi studium Object But you have spoken against godly men all this while Ans Not against their godlinesse one word their schisme errors only I have opposed But I know not what new Divinity we have got up in these dayes that if they be godly men that drinke in errours or practise inordinately Oh take heed how you speake they are godly men there may be an unwise speaking when men shall onely fling out against persons but confute nothing but certainly godly men deserve reproofe as well as others I hope the being of a godly man doth not make that to be no sinne in him which is sinne in another but here is the subtilty of Satan and it was all the game he had to play in those times I must now saith he get into an Angel of light and I must worke among these godly professors This wâ—â— Satans plot in Cyprians time as he mentions in his booke De unitä Eccles yet when he saw his heathenish worship would not prosper but was cast down then hee plagued the Church with heresie and schisme if I can get some of those away I shall get other hollow ones to cleave to them and make a party If I now make not a division among them but that they joyne all with one shoulder to set up Christs Kingdome and thrust down mine it will go hard with my kingdome now therefore finde fault with the Ordination of Ministers it was Popish so separate from them plead conscience that is a tender peece strive for exact purity though it be beyond the rule as to visible Church-fellowship and thus he hath found out his wayes to damp all the worke of Reformation I shall say no more but this though some of these Separatists are godly men yet if godly men stand thus as now we do I beleeve God will not spare us though we be godly men but he will ere long bring such plagues upon the professing party in England as shall make their hearts ake For my part I look on England thus there have been choice servants of God in England who laboured under the Hierarchicall oppression many strong cryes have they made for the removall of that burden and that they might enjoy him in his owne Ordinances without the mixtures of mens inventions God hath given us in the answer of those prayers as to the removing of what offended and now saith God looke you to it yee Professors I give the power which never your Fathers saw into the hands of the Puritanicall * The old scoffe party let me now see how you will improve it for the advancement of my Church and glory but verily if we improve it no better then now we do we must look that God will not intrust us with this power long he doth not use to stay long before he visits his Churches but quickly deprive us of this liberty and Lord if thou doest thou shalt be just Having done with the Separatists I shall now take a short view of the agreements and differences that are with and between the Classical and Congregational Divines and then shall make bold to present an humble request to the Congregational Divines 1. Do the Classical-brethren stand for all the Ordinances of Christ as Praying Preaching Sacraments Discipline c so doe the Congregational-brethren 2. Do the Classical-brethren stand for Christs officers Pastors sach ers Ruling-elders Deacons allowing such and onely such o doe the Congregational-brethren They agree in worship and in officers 3. Do the Classical-brethren hold to the old doctrines of Faith Repentanee holding up the preaching of the Law in its method to prepare before faith to guide after faith so do the Congregational-brethren such as we looke upon as sound and esteem worth the regarding 4. Do the Classical-brethren hold the government of the Church to be Presbyterial so do the Congregational-men such as are the most acute Besides what Mr. Norton none of the lowest ranke hath asserted in his book which I quoted before I have heard him say That if the Congregational-government did make the government of the Church democratical he would give up the cause For my part I am but among the weakest of Gods Ministers but yet I thinke it were no hard matter to prove the government of the Church to be Aristocratical I enter not now into the debating of the question but this hath much stucke with me First there is government in the Church I meane an externall politie besides an internall government of the Spirit what ever our phantastical Spiritualists have dreamed of the Scripture is too plain against these Secondly then there are governours and governed this must needs be yeelded else government cannot be for governours there are none that are sound in their wits can deny if they owne the Scriptures Thirdly the affaires then of the Church must be so carried that these Relates may be kept distinct for that government which destroys these by making the Correlate i. the body governed to be governour and so there are none governed cannot possibly be a government standing so much with the light of nature There is no government if all rule Obj. But how can the government of the Church be Aristocraticall when as you carry things by the suffrage of the people Answ I should desire also to propound these questions First would you not if now Churches were constituting give the people this liberty that if any could bring in good testimony against a man who was to bee received into the Church that they should do it and if the thing be proved will not you refuse to admit such a one Secondly if it now come to casting out of a member will not you give liberty to any of the brethren who shall first asking you leave to speak in a sober grave way propound some question to the clearing of the case in hand before the people joyn with you in cutting off a member I say would not you give this liberty Thirdly will you excommunicate renitente ecclesiâ
same minde I know not nay I have observed the spirits of some Congregational-Ministers carried with more eagernesse against the Classical-brethren then è converso and I am sure if there be any blame among the Ministers it is charged most upon the Congregational-men whether justly or no it concernes you to cleare your selves Besides at this time the Civill power most smiles upon you and now it is a good time to shew you seeke the peace and flourishing of all Churches by joyning with your fellow-brethren and not to be content though your Interest be safe unlesse the whole may have comfort as well as your selves for you cannot but judge that there are more true visible Churches then those which are called Independent Churches and that there be others that are true Ministers besides the Independent Ministers why then should not the comfort of these Churches and Ministers be sought which cannot be unlesse your selves be pleased to declare against these errours and schismes of the times and fall in with these Ministers to carry on the worke of Christ together Let mee I beseech you present to your view a few things to be considered First the Classical men have bid very faire for peace and agreement with you heare their words Lond. in Vind. p. 120. 121. We doe here manifest our willingnesse te accommodate with you according to the word in a way of union and such of us as are Ministers to preach up and to practise a mutuall forbearance and toleration in all things that may consist with the sundamentals of Religion what need then any other Toleration with the power of godlinesse and with that peace which Christ hath established in his Church but to make ruptures in the body of Christ and to divide Church from Church c. there is no warrant for this out of the word The page before this they offer as much as this and speake so Christianly and ingenuously that it must needs move any Christian heart that loves the peace and prosperity of the Churches to meet them halfe way and not suffer any differences more to appeare As for that exception they make the ruptures of Churches I thinke it to be a very just exception that golden rule hath place here ut tibi sic aliis would any of us be content to have other Ministers take from us the best of our people that have chosen us before and owned us for their officers say what you please you are men and I know it would be a strong temptation when as for want of these also their hands are weakned in the carrying on of Reformation in their Churches If you take away the best who are the joy of a Minister take away the worst also If you live neare a place where there is no Minister and take in such Christians to you as the place affords and returne them when the place is furnished or if there be a Minister and but few Christians so that he cannot give the Lords Supper with comfort if he and his people will joyne with you they may none oppose this but when a godly Minister hath visible Saints sufficient in his Parish to have these taken from him is such a thing which I would not have offered to me therefore I would not offer the same to another I know where the pinch lyes on the Ministers part Our maintenance ariseth from the members c. but for this the State hath provided an answer and certainly it is a great mercy reforme you in the place where you live take none but Scriputre-visible-Saints to the Sacraments catechize and doe what you can to reforme the rest the State hath provided for your maintenance none shall keepe it from you as well as the word gives it you Gal. 6. Let him that is taught in the word communicate to him that teacheth in all good things Christ sent Paul not to baptize but to preach the Gospel 1 Cor. 1.17 preaching is the spending worke and the chiefe of this all the Parish are partakers I am ready to dispense the Seales to all visible Saints therefore I know no scruple why I should not receive from all since all receive from me O but your members will not be content with this I know not but your members may finde God in a godly reformed Classicall Church we see the differences are very small but suppose the worst let then your members remove into the Parishes where you live and this is no offence to any if they say It will something hinder their estate Mr. Burroughs wil tel them then they love their bodies better then their soules Expos Hos c. 2. v. 1.2 p. 225. if they looke upon things very much concerning their soul and will not buy them with some abatement of their profit could this have beene once enjoyed New England sufferers had not been there now Though Parishes are not Churches yet Ministers care must be bounded some where I presume you are willing to close so that you may not sin I beseech you first what sinne is it to let a godly Classicall man enjoy his owne members Secondly What sinne is it to admit a visible Saint and member of a Classical Church to communion with you Thirdly what sinne is it to declare against the errours and schismes of the times you see it is the thoughts of the New England Divines that through our too much connivence at these this inundation of errours is like to destroy all If these three be but yeelded I beleeve you may live and enjoy your liberty of conscience and no man will trouble you 2. A second consideration is this you see those who call for agreement they are no babes they are men holy learned excellently gifted and the arguments they give for their Classical forme of government are not slight but such as deserve strong heads to answer it may be my shallownesse but truly I cannot yet see some things they plead for to be clearly answered as their arguments for the Catholick-Church-visible their arguments for their Presbyterial Church from the Church of Jerusalem Corinth c. yet I have read the answers with a kinde of prejudice against the Classical way being before engaged in the Congregational-way and usually then men are apt to make a little serve the turne But I cannot yet be satisfied and that such a Church as is in this small village where I live should have equall power with the Church of Corinth and be exempted from all other power though which God forbid we should walke scandalously is a peece of Divinity that I cannot yet beleeve There seemes to be something in that which learned Mr. Hudson hinteth from 1 Cor. 14.34 Let your women keepe silence in the Churches Here are Churches in Corinth he doth not say Let women but Let your women that indeed which is a rule for the Churches of Corinth is a rule for all Churches those Congregations are called Churches yet one combined Church