sense you account our Ministers and Churches true 2. If you may occasionally exercise Acts of Communion with us once a second a third time without sin we know no reason why it may not be ordinarily without sin And then Separation and gathering Churches would have been needless To separate from those Churches ordinarily and visibly with whom occasionally you may Joyn without sin seemeth to be a most unjust Separation Indep Suppose you do account our gathering Churches sinful may not some things be tolerated which are thought unlawful Presb. Our Reason against Toleration is not sounded upon the Supposition that nothing unlawful may be tolerated but upon the supposition of unlawfulness to tolerate the gathering Churches out of true Churches And you do not once endeavour to prove either that such gathering or the tolerating thereof is lawful We are to debate the lawfulness of forbearance and may insist upon any proper medium to that end for clearing whereof the lawfulness or unlawfulness of that point of Church gathering is one of the most necessary Indep If we do not gather into other Churches Multitudes that cannot conform must live without some Ordinances all their dayes Presb. Of this before but we answer that you wave the main business viz. whether there be any Example in Gods Word for gathering Churches out of Churches 1. This opens a gap for all Sects to challenge the same liberty as their due It should be considered 2. Whether we must follow an Erroneous Conscience so far as to gather into new Churches 3. Whether this be not denied by the Churches in New-England Indep Is it not the Right of every man to choose his own Minister Presb. Certainly some would deny it and it will be like to breed much confusion Besides the tolerated will have the greatest priviledge by it they shall enjoy it absolutely when those under the Rule cannot without removing their dwellings p. 64 65. Indep Though we do separate we are such as have given good Testimony of our Godliness and Peaceableness And we did not separate till we had used all means in faithfulness to know the mind of Christ Presb. We shall not mind you how Testimonies of Godliness are not always infallible Protections against Schism or Heresie as in Milesius Lucifer Audaeus c. We conceive that amongst other means used in faithfulness this should be one that each person give an account of his Scruple to the Eldership or Congregation where he dwells that so he may either receive satisfaction or have from them a Testimony of Godliness and Peaceableness Indep But you uncharitably charge us with the guilt of Schism though we do not say your Churches are false and not to be communicated with which is hard measure Presb. We have answered this already but further we say albeit Schism consists not in every diversity of opinion or practice but in an open breach of Christian love yet we see not how you can acquit your selves even by this Rule when you openly profess a necessity to recede from our Churches as Members which while yet you acknowledge them to be true Churches of Christ Thus to depart from true Churches is not to hold Communion with them as such but rather by departing to declare them to be such Surely at best we may say of this course as the Philosopher did of the Milesians Milesii quidem non sunt insipientes ea tamen agunt quae insipientes Mark once for all how unaptly the Reflecter would make all the stress of the Presbyterians Argument to prove the Schism of the Independents to beat upon the endeavours of their Churches to reform For the Independents were as unsatisfied with their Reformation as they are with their worship For they say plainly the Reformation which the Assembly hath ultimately pitch'd upon satisfies not our Consciences as our Brethren know No you every where find they charge them with Separation from true Churches and aggravate that charge from their acknowledgment of the truth of those Churches from which they separate Indep But you endeavour our disgrace and cast an odium upon us by the word Schism Presb. Your way would give countenance to a perpetual Division in the Church still drawing away from the Churches under the Rule And Schism differs no more from Division then Greek from Latine We desire you that by assuming tenderness of Conscience to your dissenting from the Rule and establishment of a Church-way or Church-order to your way and godly party you would not reflect an odium upon us or the Churches under the Rule You know that to give countenance to an unjust or causless Separation from a lawful Church-Communion is not far from giving countenance to Schism Especially wheen the grounds upon which this Separation is desired are such as upon which all other possible scruples may claim a like Indulgence and so this Toleration being the first shall indeed but lay a Foundation and open the Gap whereat as many Divisions in the Church as there be Scruples in the minds of men shall upon the self same equity be let in p. 66. The Conclusion with a Recapitulation OUR work we see was effectually done to our hands many years agon both against the Independents and the present Presbyterians whose practice in gathering Churches and whose Arguments in defence of that practice are very much the same And both are here abundantly confuted by these Presbyterian weighty Reasons Which indeed are such as took not their strength from any peculiar conditions of the times when they were written but are now and ever will be of equal and invincible prevalency Therefore the Dialogue is as proper and seasonable now as those Papers were then Do but change the Person and name Presbyterian for the Church of England and the whole is as pertinent to our present State as the Reader can wish And indeed what can the wit of the present dissenters add new to the Argument as it was then managed Or what have they said more for themselves Reveiw and judge The Independents then pleaded 1. WE onely desire a liberty to worship God in Congregations of our own distincâ— from the Parochial 2. We condemn not the Parochial Churches as false 3. We differ from you onely in small matters 4. We agree with you as to the substance of Doctrine and worship 5. Yet we cannot joyn with you in all things without sin 6. And we cannot live without any one ordinance 7. Therefore we joyn in another Congregation only for the enjoyment of all ordinances for our spiritual good 8. Yet we will preserve all Christian Communion with the Saints in the Church Catholick 9. We cannot be Members of that Congregation where our dwelling is 10. However we will hold occasional Communion with you 11. This is no Schism or countenance of Schism or rigid separation 12. We cannot approve or edifie by the Parish Ministers 13. 'T is the priviledge of every one to choose his own Pastor 14. Living in a Parish doth not make Members of a Church 15.
Removal from one Parish to another is allowed and why not to a separate Cogregation 16. Tender Consciences ought thus to be relieved 17. It is against Christian charity to deny this liberty 18. This Liberty will prove the best means of Uniformity 19. What if we have liberty from the State to gather Churches 20. Some things may be tolerated that are thought unlawful 21. Multitudes that cannot conform must live without some ordinances all their days 22. Those that separate have given good Testimony of their Godliness and Peaceableness And have used all means first to know the mind of Christ 23. You charge us with Schism to render us odious All these were Independent Arguments in 1644. how they commensed to be Presbyterian in 1672. I know not But this I know that then the Presbyterians were not shy to declare gathering Churches out of our Churches under all flourishes and iittle pretenses was a Schismatical and dangerous Separation and not to be allowed For which they gave the world not onely their Authority but such Reasons as you have heard but shall never see answered Some of their Propositions follow Some of the Presbyterian Assertions whereby they refelled the foresaid Independent pretenses for gathering Churches as more at large appeareth in the Dialogue are these 1. OUr Parochial Congregations are true Churches 2. To make one a Member of such a Church it is sufficient that he professeth Christianity and lives in the Parish and he may claim Communion thereupon 3. The old Non-Conformists did not separate from the Parish Churches or renounce Membership though they thought kneeling at the Communion unlawful and I may add had as much cause to complain of Persecution and want of Reformation as any have now but did some of them with Zeal and Learning defend our Churches against those of the Separation 4. None ought to be indulged but such as agree with the establishment as to the substance of Doctrine and Worship 5. These should not be indulged so far as to separate and gather new Churches 6. This is Schism and the means of confusion in the Church and in Families 7. None are to be allowed to withdraw Communion in things wherein they agree with us But in all such things they ought to retain Communion with the Congregation where they live 8. The Separatists holding our Churches to be true Churches is an Aggravation of their Separation 9. To depart from Churches me acknowledg to be true is not to hold Communion with them as such but rather by departing to declare them not to be such 10. To leave all Ordinary communion in any Church with Dislike when Opposition or Offence offers it self is â—o Separate in the Scripture-Sense and was not in being in the Apostles times unless by false Teachers 11. All who professed Christianity in the Apostles times held Communion together notwithstanding differences in Judgment or corruptions in Practice 12. The Judgment of pure and impure Ordinances is not to be left to the alone discretion of a particular Person 13. To Separate from those Churches Ordinarily and Visibly with whom occasionally you may joyn without Sin seemeth to be a most unjust Separation 14. It is one thing to Remove to a Congregation that is under the same Rule another to a Congregation of a different constitution In the one a man retaineth his Membership in the other he Renounceth it 15. Testimonies of Godliness are no infallible Protections against Schism 16. 'T is no breach of Charity to hinder all unjust Separaions 17. A man may want the Lords Supper with less Danger then to purchase it by a sinful Separation 18. The Church is not bound to Indulge a Liberty to Erring Consciences especially to the evident disturbance of her own Peace 19. No pretences of tenderness of Consciences or of Edification or of enjoying all Ordinances or of holding Communion with us as Saints in the Church Catholick or of Occasional Communion with us as a particular Church or of holding communion with us as far as they â—re able or that they cannot joyn with us without Sin or lastly no acceptions that they take either against our Officers or Members None of these or any such can warrant a Sepaparation from us or gathering new Churches out of ours For these make not the Cause of a just separation which ought to appear ex natura rei Rememmber from whence thou art faln FINIS ERRATA PAge 33. Line 2. Read Not only for Wrath but also for Conscence sake Rom. 13. 5. p. 34. l. 14. dele and. p. 35. l. 18. r. things p. 40. l. 1. r. Subterfuges p. 54. l. 21. r. should not be p. 78. l. 17. r. our Government Some Books Printed for and sold by James Collins at the Kings Arms in Ludgate-street 1673. OBservations upon Military and Political Affairs by the most Honourable George Duke of Albemarle Folio price 6. s. A Sermon Preached by Seth Lord Bishop of Sarum at the Funeral of the most Honourable George Duke of Albemarle Quarto price 6. d. Philosophia Pia or A Discourse of the Religious tendences of the Experimental Philosophy to which is added a Recommendation and Defence of Reason in the Affairs of Religion by Joseph Glanvil Rector of Bath Octavo price 2 s. 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false as do not preserve all Christian Communion with the Saints nor joyn with them in all duties of worship so far as they are able shall not have the benefit of this indulgence And to the end that these words so far as they are able may not stand for a meer Cypher and signifie nothing let each man particularly declare in what ordinances he is able to joyn that so all total Separation may be prevented p. 70. Indep Though we shall not joyn with we will not condemn your Churches as false And this no rigid Separation p. 71. Presb. The condemning our Churches as false doth little extenuate the Separation For divers of the Brownists who have totally separated in former times have not condemned these Churches as false Though you do not pronounce an affirmative judgement against us your very separating is a tacit and practical condemning of our Churches if not as false yet as impure eousque as that in such Admistrations they cannot be by you as Members communicated with without sin Indep However though we cannot communicate with you as Members of your particular Congregations yet we will preserve all Christian Communion with you as Saints and Members of the Catholick Church Presb. This is as full a declining Communion with us as Churches as if we were false Churches p. 72. Indep If this be called Schism or the countenance of Schism it is more then we have yet learned either from the Scripture or any approved Author p. 73. Presb. It gives manifest countenance to perpetual Schâ—sm should this be allowed you Not that we think differences in Judgment in this or that point to be Schism or that every Inconformâ—ty unto every thing is Schism so as Communion be preserved Or that Separation from Idolotrous Communion ex se unlawful is Schism but 1. We find that you desire not onely that you may be free from communicating as Members in those Parishes where you dwell but also that you may have liberty to have Congregations of such persons who out of tenderness of Conscience cannot communicate with us but do voluntarily offer themselves to joyn in separate Congregations of another Communion Which Secession of our Members from us is a manifest rupture of our Societies into other and is therefore a Schism in the body And if the Apostle doth call those Divisions of the Church wherein Christians did not separate into diverse formed Congregations of several Communions in the Sacrament Schisms much more may such Separations as you desire be so called 2. We find it not alleaged as a Cause of your Separation either that our Churches are false or our Communion exâ—se unlawful but onely Scruple of Conscience that you cannot without sin as to you partake in all duties and enjoy all ordinances which is no Cause of separating nor doth it take off Causless Separation from being Schism which may arise from errours of Conscience as well as carnal and corrupt Reasons Therefore we conceive the Causes of Separation must be shewn to be such as ex Natura rei will bear it out which hath not yet been done nor we think can be 3. And now we desire you to shew out of Scripture and approved Authors what you have learned concerning Schism For the breaking off Members from their Churches which are lawfully constituted Churches and from Communion in Ordinances dispenfed according to Gods word without just and sufficient Cause ex natura rei to justifie such Secession and to joyn in other Congregations of separate Communion either because of Causless Scruple of their own Conscience or because of personal failings in the Officers or Members of the Congregation from which they separate hath been accounted Schism and the setting up Altare contra Altare And concurrently do approved Authors say and we likewise conceive that it is the Cause of the Separation which gives both name and thing to Schism For if the cause be unjust or insufficient according to the Rule of the Word of God let our Brethren tell us what such Separation is It is our â—arnest desire and Prayer that our Brethren might enjoy the Ordinances with the Peace of their Consciences and of the Church also or that they would rather deny themselves of their full liberty in every point then redeem it at the price of so much danger and disqâ—riet to the Churches of God p. 74 5 6 7. Indep The Ministers of the Parish Churches are not such as we can comfortably joyn with and sit down under Presh We do not believe that you mean that onely such should be allowed to gather into your Congregations who live under bad and unprofitable Ministers though that be the onely medium there used against our Reason Where the Ministry is without P. 84 85. just exception we refer it to your own Conscinces and to the practise of your Congregations to say how fit it is that the Members should ordinarily much less constantly seek the Ordinances elsewhere We long to know what Reformation of our Parishes will satisfie your Consciences or how this Kingdom may be made the Kingdom of the Lord and of his Christ better then by dividing it into several parts by the bounds of their dwellings that all who give up their Names to Christ may be taught and governed and have all the Ordinances administred among them suitable to their Conditions p. 102. Indep But it seems you would have us for ever to want the Lords Supper which is not to be endured p. 102. Presb. 1. Why may not some expedient satisfie you in this to prevent so great an evil as Separation 2. We may not do evil for any good end If a man should be brought to such a Streight as that either he must want the Lords Supper or separate from the Congregation whereof he is a Member he may here want the Ordinance during this Errour of his Conscience with less danger than to purchase it by a sinful separation 3. This is a strange and dangerous way of arguing which may open a gap to as many Divisions and Subdivisions in the Church as the Errours are unto which the minds of men are subject And if this be allow'd we desire you to consider how long not our Churches onely but your own or any other Churches in the World shall be free from uncurable unquietness Indep It must be a prejudice to the Church we are in if we separate from her in the Lords Supper And yet you would have us live under their Government whom we prejudice which seems unreasonable to us p. 104 Presb. If your Errours cause prejudice against you is it unreasonable for you to be under the Government of that Church which is prejudiced by you may you with good reason Scandalize the Church by Separation and the Church have no reason to govern you then prejudicating or scandalizing Errours are a Supersedeas to all Government We do not then wonder that Errours and perverse opinions so much abound it may be
they are all but the mediums to liberty and exemptions from Government Indep But living in a Parish doth not make us Members of the Church Presb. We grant it a man must in order of Nature first be a Member of the Church visible and then living in a Parish and making profession of Christianity he may claim admission into the Society of Christians within those bounds and enjoy the Ordinances which are there dispensed Indep Where is your Christian Charity We would edifie our selves the best we can and though we differ but in very small matters you will not suffer us Presb. Can you not be edified without Scandalizing the Church of God we leave to all men to judge whose Charity is greatest their 's who labour to preserve union or theirs who resolve to separate and break it We think Charity binds Christians to prevent all unjust and needless Separation We wonder at your Charity that coming so near us in Doctrine and worship nothing should content you but a Separation p. 105 106. Indep We cannot in Conscience set down where we cannot enjoy all the Ordinances p. 122. Presb. 1. Have you all the Ordinances in your own Churches 2. Do you not hold ruling Elders to be an Ordinance have you these Or be your Churches without some one ordinance and not ours 3. To determine Controversies of Faith cases of conscience judicially is an Ordinance If you must be of no Church but where that is exercised and the liberty of opinions restrained your Churches would be soon destroyed And you would find it we believe difficult to gather more Indep This would prove the best means of Uniformity and Conjunction to allow us distinct Churches according to our own Principles Presb. This is a Riddle we wonder how disjunction can be the only way of Conjunction and Multiformity of Uniformity and Separation of Communion and different Principles and Practises of Conformity What Churches under Heaven may we not hold Conjunction Uniformity and Communion with upon such terms p. 123. Indep But tender Consciences ought to be relieved Presb. We desire to know whether every Persons bare â—lleadging tenderness of Conscience shall be sufficient to warrant his deserting our Congregations p. 49. 2. We much doubt whether such tenderness as ariseth out of an opâ—nion oui potest subesse falsum when the Conscience is so tender that it may also be an erring Conscience can be a sufficient ground to justifie such material Separation as our Brethren plead for For though it may bind to forbear or suspend the Act of Communion in that particulur wherein men conceive they cannot hold Communion without sin yet it doth noâ— bind to follow such a positiv prescript as possibly may be diverse from the Will and Counseâ— of God Of which kind wâ— conceive this of gathering separated Churches out of other truâ— Churches to be one p. 51. Indep In case the Lords Supper be not administred in parity a â—emoval is allowed ordinarily Now we would only gather our selves into other Churches for â—urer enjoyment as to our Conâ—ciencis of all ordinances p. 50 51. Presb. We conceive the ground of your Separation from â—ne Church and gathering oâ—hers to this end that you may â—e preserved from sinning â—gainst your Conscieâ—ces and â—or the purer enjoyment of Orâ—inances may to men of other â—udgments be a ground to crave â—oleration for separating from Churches which are pure and â—athering impure and corrupt Churches out of them p. 50. It was never the meaning of â—he Assemblies to leave the Judgâ—ent of pure or impure Ordinances to this Case unto the alone discretion of a particular Person But before any leave 〈◊〉 Parochial Congregation ordinarily he ought to declare the Cause of his grievance that if it may be his removal may be prevented Except he think fit to change his dwelling in which Case his removal is without offence Indep VVhy may it not be as lawful to go to a separate Congregation for relief as to remove our dwelling to another Parish Presb. It is one thing to remove to a Congregation which is under the same Rule another to a Congregation of a dâ—fferent constitution from the Rule In the one a maâ— retains his Membership in the other he renounceth it p. 52. Indep If the purest Churches in the VVorld unto our Judgement in all other respects should impose as a condition in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper any one thing that such tender Consciences cannot Joyn in as suppose kneeling if they remove from these Churches and have liberty from the State to gather into other Churches to enjoy this and other Ordinances â—here is no Separation Presb. 1. If a Church require that which is evil of any Member he must forbear to do it yet without Separation and waite on Gods Providence in the dispensation of that Church till all remedies have been tryed 2. He that is in this kind oppressed may be relieved by Appeal or change his dwelling 3. They who thought kneeling in the Act of Communion to be unlawful either in England or Scotland did separate or renounce Membership but did some of them with Zeal and Learâ—ing defend our Churches against those of the Separation Indep But we hope you will not question us if we have liberty from the State to gather into other Churches Presb. The Nature of Separation is not to be measured by civil Acts or State but by the Word of God what notion you have of it we know not but surely to leave all ordinary Communion in any Church with dâ—slike when opposition or offence offers it self is to separate from such a Church in the Scripture since such a Separation was not in the Apostles times unless it were used by false Teachers all who professed Christianity held Communion together notwithstanding differences of Judgment or Corruptions in practise p. 55. Indep Our Churches cannot be thought to be guilty of a plain and total Separation unless we did wholly in all things differ by setting up altogether differing Rules of Constitution VVorship and Government Presb. Of this Assertion we expect some proof We read not the like in any Author antient or modern Under this pretense Novatians Donatists all that ever were thought to separate may shelter themselves who themselves boasting of their Separation the most rigid Separatists hold the same Rule of worship and government for substance with you We desire you to consider if every small and circumstantial difference amongst those who agree in most things and those most substantial shall be a sufficient ground to gather Churches out of Churches into a separate and distinct Communion how the Churches of God shall ever be kept free from Rents and Divisions and how the Peace thereof is possible to be preserved Indep But as we hold your Churches to be true Churches so we are ready to hold occasional Communion with them Presb. 1. You have estranged your selves from us hitherto and we have reason to question in what
People that yet â—ontinue in one Parochial Communion Advice to our Conforming People WIll you also go away you Hold fast know we have the words of eternal life and whether can you go to mend your selves Consider the danger of breaking the Union and dissolving the constitution of our Parish Churches and hold fast the profession of your Faith without wavering nor forsaking the assembling your selves together as the manner of some is Your continuing hitherto with us declares you are satisfied with our Communion And for your Parish Ministers if they are such as they should be fail not to encourage them in the day of their distress as Children should do to their Parents If they are faulty endeavour in your places to reform or remove them if incorrigible that the Church may be no longer scandalized by them but be very tender of Separating from them Be your Ministers never so obnoxious your Separation is noâ— legal Remedy either for the Church or you nor do our Laws allow it Yea you have not a word from the old Non-Conformists or Presbyterians to warrant your going to separatâ— Congregations of another constitution though indeed they did allow of going to Neighbour Parishes where the Minister was very ignorant or wicked But if the Minister be pious and diligent though of very ordinary and mean gifts they do by no means allow an Ordinary and usual with drawing from his Ministry to hear those that are more able Are the People that separate of better Lives then you the fault is not in the Ministry by which they were also generally converted but in your selves I speak this to your shame It is left to you to recover the honour of of that means which they disparage by forsaking and you by prophaning Yet it is sufficiently observable that the Separation it self is blemish't with its peculiar Vices which you ought by oppositions to avoid Are they proud censorious Vices of the Separation jealous and rash in Judgement be ye humble candid and charitahle Are they partial and trousome to the Church and Neighbourhood be ye Catholick and as much as in you lies live peaceably with them and all men Are they guilty of Schism by breach of unity take you heed of being so by breach of Charity And by their new and strange devices to deride study how you may unite And seeing they will forsake you study you to kâ—ep closer one to another Yet what is or seems to be Their good imitate good and commendable in them if there be any virtue if there be any praâ—se among them think on these things and disdain not to be taught by your Adversaries Are they Zealous in their way do they love and adhere to and provide one for another are they strict and temperate Are they free from Vanity Ribaldry Riot and Blasphemy Are they Admirers of their Teachers Punctual and greedy observers of the times of their worship c. Be you so too and much more and covet earnestly the best gifts Thus labouring to redeem the Name and Reputation of the Church of England from the charge of a vain and debauch't Conversation under so excellent a Profession A PETITION AND ADVICE TO THE NON-CONFORMISTS 1. TO their Preachers if Preachers they would design to hear me with patience and charity and meekness of wisdom and not count me an Enemy who would onely tell them the truth in love Many of you are well known to me I should wrong you not to acknowledg you to be men of Parts and worth and such as are qualified to serve the Church in a more then ordinary manner and I know not that I ever said any thing when warmest in Argument undeserving that Charity of J. H. concering me who saith he upon Conviction will perhaps as soon as any be ready to thank God with us if a Door so effectual be opened that we may without offence and without Schism joyn our strength in mutual love and concord for the carrying on the great work of mans Salvation through the Nation Yet I have said so much against you that you will not easily believe I would flatter you 'T is enough if you can bear with me that I am not yet convinced but that the course you have taken is sinful and of dangerous consequence from which very perswasion onely I tooâ— all that heat that some complaiâ— of I am yet offended at your Seâ—paration but especially that yoâ— gather your Assemblâ—es at thâ— same time with the Temple-Worâ—ship and in such Places tooâ— where no exception lies againsâ— the Parish-Ministers Beyond all colour or pretence of Reason and all Allowance even of those that have hitherto Written in your defence And methinks suffer my plainness if there be indeed any Wisdom and Meekness in you if any love to to us if any care to the Church if any real desire to avoid the Crime and the charge of Schism it should be difficult to perswade you to alter your practice in that one particular You do not think the People Keep your Meetings at other tâ—mes would be the worse for our Felowship You do not bid Defiaâ—ce to it your selves or declare against the Parish-Constitution of our Churches or for a Total Separation If any thing of this nature be said of you you are offended Then think on 't seriously why you should generally so order your Meetings as that your Hearers are necessitated to leave our Assemblies If I may not deserve to be heard Whom will ye hearken to in this Point Shall we appeal Follow your Friends advice to those that would defend you and Write against me I am content follow but their Advice and Examples in this particular and you will oblige me never to trouble you more in this Matter Hear what the Authour of Sacrilegious P. 90. 91 c. Dâ—ssention c. saith If you lâ—ve where the Conformable Minister is faithful truly endeavouring the Salvation of his Flock I charge you in the â—ame of Christ do not onely if possible as much as in you lieth live in love familiarity peace with him but also do all that you can to maintain his honour and promote his work For all your Non-Conformity you are no better then he if you be not more charitable then he If you set your selves in a dividing way secretly to rejoyce at his disparagement and to draw as many from him as you can you are but destroyers of the Church of God Call your selves what you will I will call you destroyers if you are dividers Yea much that else would be your duty must be omitted to avoid Division The work of God the good of Souls the defense of the Protestant Religion against Papists require your utmost conjured strength And you are Betrayers of all these if you are Dividers Therefore go as often as you can to his Congregation and hold communion personally with him and lead the People with you Do not say now
we have an opportunity to do better it is unlawful to joyn with them that do worse For though it be not lawful to neglect your own duty and opportunity it is lawful for you by deed as well as word to shew your Christian Concord and Communion Therefore in Parishes where all may well hear the Parish Minister I would not have you without necessity Preach at the same hour as he doth but at some middle time that you may not seem to vie with him for Auditors nor to draw the People from him But let them go with you to hear him and after come and hear you or before And that he likes not this gathering of Churches very well whatever he had said in the defense by the Petition he would have us make for them That if possible upon the terms he had laid down they might be taken into the established Ministry if not yet tolerated as Lecturers under us in such Churches where the Ministers desire them And he hath my consent that either of these were rather to be admitted though it be with the loss of part of our profits then to hazard all as I fear you do by the present separation One thing I humbly renew for your most serious consideration whether it be not adviseable to instruct your Hearers in the lawfulness and convenience of their communicating with us at least sometimes and perswading them there unto both by your teachiâ—g and example lest by the constant opposite practice their hearts be so alienated from the Temple worship that when you would reduce them to it you shall find it beyond your power To the Non-Conforming People FOr you that are our People who are neither gone away already or are under temptation to leave us I have very little encouragement to trouble you with my advice though I shall not say of you as the Author lately quoted doth of the P. 118. Conformists in his humble Petition to them that Satan hath got so great advantage that the wisest man living is uncapable of speaking rightly to them without offence However suffer though it be a kind of penance to you yet suffer a word or two of Exhortatation which I shall commend with better Authority to you then mine own 1. Suffer the Arguments both Conform as far as you can from duty and Peace and unity and charity to prevail with you to conform as far as you can And in what you cannot labour for satisfaction and if that cannot be had use any allowed means for the gratifying your selves in such things wherein you cannot conform but do not separate more then you must needs Is not this reasonable and proper advice ask Mr. Baxier ask the Author of the Answer to my Book ask the old Non-Conformists yea I appeal to your own Breasts if you would but suffer your selves seriously and impartially to consider it For surely Division is not to be chosen for it self and there can be no reason for the use of the dangerous Physick of Separation and rending and tearing the body of the Church beyond necessity There are three Questions or Cases of Conscience that would be throughly canvas'd and resolv'd before yoâ— Separate 1. Whether we may ordinarily leave our own Parish Ministers to hear others 2. Whether such as could and did communicate with the Parish Churches before the liberty can have any tolerable reason to separate now 3. Whether such as say they cannot in Conscience joine with us in all things have any ground to leave us in those Parts of worship they can The first is answered by the Old Non-Conformists particularly by the grave Mr. Hildersham in these words If thy Pastor saith he be approved of by the Church Conscionable in his place unblameable in his life though of inferiour Parts take heed thou leave him not 1. He may be a true Minister though inferiour to many others Mat. 25. 15. Which Argument the Apostle useth to perswade all members to unity Eph. 4. 7. You are bound to love and reverence him and thank God for him 1 Cor. 6. 10. 1 Thes 5. 13. Rom. 10. 15. Luke 10. 16. 3. Doubtless thou maist profit by him if the fault be not in thy self 1 Cor. 12. 7. 14. 31. 4. Our profit depends not on Ministers gifts but on Gods blessing 1 Cor. 3. 5 6 7 8. 5. None may usually and ordinarily leave his own Pastour so qualified as before for 1. As it is Gods own Ordinance that every own Pastour should have his own Flock to attend and take heed unto Act. 14. 23. So it is Gods Ordinance that every one of Gods People should have a Pastor of his own to attend upon 1 Pet. 5. 3. Now he cannot be said to depend upon his Pastour's Ministry that doth ordinarily and usually leave it and go to another He onely maketh a right use of the benefit of hearing such as have more excellent gifts then his own Pastour as leaneth thereby to his own Pastour the better and to profit more by him 6. If thou leavest thine own Pastour onely with a desire to edifie thy self 1. Do it with his consent and leave 2. Acknowledge thou owest a duty to him as to thy Superiour in the things that belong to thy Soul 1. Thes 5. 11. 3. Thou art bound to seek his comfort and to give him all good encouragement that he may do his work with joy and cheerfulness Heb. 13. 17. Hildersham upon the 4 th of John 2. The Second Case is touching such of you as could and did â—ommunicate with us in our Parish worship before the liberty granted â—y the late Declaration And is whether they can have any toleraâ—le Reason except their Judgements be since changed to sepaâ—ate now That they cannot I â—ope I have made to appear sufâ—ciently in other parts but if â—y Reasons may not be thought worthy your Consideration yet mâ— thinks 't is not in considerable that there are but two Persons that have set themselves to answer me and they have both of them yielded in this point Though they seem to be a little too exceptious in lesser matters The Author of the Book called Sacrilegious desertion of the holy Ministry rebuked c. delivereth himself in the Case fully to our purpose in these words As far as I can promise P. 76. saith he we will judge of you no worse then we have done noâ— deny any Communion with you which we have used and can use without neglecting ouâ— own work As I constantlâ— Joyn in my Parish Church in Liturgy and Sacâ—aments so I hopâ— to do while I live if I live under as honest a Minister at duâ— times The Author of the short Reflections upon Toleration not to be P. 37. abused is my other publick Adversary let us hear him also Who are they saith he who separate from them where they can have Communion with them I do not know I wish we could say so too Presbyterians I believe will not
scruple to hear all Ministers amongst them to Preach as they have occasion nor possibly someto hear them read COMMON PRAYER but will be ready to go with him as far as they can And thus also you have their opinion as to the last Case viz. Whether such as say they cannot in Conscience joyn with us in all things have any ground to leave us in those parts of worship wherein they can You have heard both these Authors when they purposely set themselves to speak to these very points to intimate their Confession for the Negative Upon this very ground Ames seems to affirm there may be no total Separation from a true Church but onely partial quatenus Communio non potest absque peccato exerceri so far as we may not communicate without sin What man can think it reasonable that such as live within the bounds of any true particular Church should for some offences renounce all Communion with it or as I said at first divide and separate more then needs When once you can weigh the evil of division and value Peace in the Church and union amongst Brethren truly as you ought you will be then of the same mind with with us O let no prejudice or partial respect of things or persons any longer captivate your minds in Errour leading to a practice so dangerous in its consequence as I have shewn and so unreasonable in its Principles as your stoutest Friends in the Field of controversie would not dare to defend Yea whose very Professions and personal Practices are for the contrary and would teach you better My first Answerer hath many other very good Directions both to you and your Teachers for which I thank him and which I earnestly desire you to consider and follow Remarques upon the late Reflections on Toleration not to be abused THese shore Reflections might have been much shorter and none of the Authors Reason been lost Some of them might have been spared for that they reflect upon the Author himself viz. such as these Blessed God! when will the lust of implacable men be satisfied upon their Brethren p. 5. the Author seems to be incredibly serious p. 6. Doth it not seem ridiculous to you p. 22. 'T is both malitious and nonsensical imputation p. 22. They may it seems toler atc any thing but his Majesty may not p. 25. as to the fear of Popery I wish he and his Friends were in earnest p. 27. 'T is well known most of the Conformists are Arminians p. 28. If he had favour'd me with his Notion of a true particular Church c. but this was not for Interest p. 29. These and such kind of Reflections seem not to be worthy of a pure light that so lately came out of great darkness and tribulation as he every where complains But this kind of Reflections I have no mind to answer I have indeed made reply to all the other parts of his Book But upon Second thoughts have yet resolved to publish onely so much of it as concerns the Argument so far as it is New and not so fully considered as perhaps might be desired in my Reply to my other Answerer The very Question almost in Titâ—e page ' his own words is this Whether it be not a sinful Separation and contrary to the Principles of the late Presbyterians to gather themselves into Congregations distinct and separate from the parochial Assemblies under present Circâ—mstances Thus I affiâ—m and he denieth The Sum of that which he offereth against it is reduceable to these two Propositâ—ons 1. We hold the Church of Rome to be a true Church and yet Separate from it 2. Our Parochial are not true Churches or at least they are so faulty as they may lawfully be separated from The first of these is much insisted on by my other Adversary to whom I have answered in another place we find it twice at least in these Reflections p. 17. by the same Weapon saith he by which our Brerhren aefend their Separation from Rome we defend our Secession in some Ordiâ—ances from them But how you shall defend your Secession in all Ordinances would also be considered But more briskly to the same purpose p. 23. he queries thus Have not our Brethren Separated from the Church of Rome yet many of them do own the Church of Rome as a true Church When they have reconciled themselves to to these assertions of their own they will be able to see what answer we may give them also If they may separate from a Church which they own as true then surely we may do so too But hereunto I answer 1. When I affirmed that it was unlawful to gather a Church out of a true Church which was the ground of his Reflection I did personate and spake the propositior of the late Presbyterians And you do not say the Presbyterians hold the Church of Rome to be a true Church So that as to them the Argument may be still valid enough And those of us that you say hold the Church of Rome to be a true Church may have and indeed have other Arguments to condemn your Separation 2. You know that was a current Argument of the late Presbyterians against the Independents and I used it as theirs And if it be inconsequent charge them with bad Logick and say they were mistaken not I. 3. 'T is most certain this is no good Logick with the old Presbyterians We may separate from the Church of Rome therefore from the Church of England And when they urge their Adversaries with the unlawfulness of gathering Churches out of true Churches they supposed they spake to Persons that understood what true Churches they meant viz. Our Parochial Congregations And that out of such true Churches as ours are where we have the Word and Sacraments truly dispensed and we may communicate without sin it is not lawful to separate and gather Churches 4. It is not enongh for you to say our Communion is so corrupt as you cannot communicate in it we prove that the Communion of the Roman Church is such Upon this ground the Brownists the Quaker the vilest Separatist and Heretick is armed and may as well say you separate from Rome that you take to be a true Church therefore we may separate from you whether ye be â—o or not 5. For the Fathers of the Church of England many of them do indeed hold the Church of Rome to be verè a Church of Christ yet generally they say she is not vera Ecclesia she is truly a Church as to the Essence but not morally a true Church having neither the Word truly Preached nor the Sacraments rightly administred in it which Calvin makes Essential to a true Church I dare undertake to make it evident when he shall vouchsafe to name those principal Fathers whom now he is forsooth unwilling to name for what Reason I know not I dare undertake I say to make it evident that they meant no other thing
though they may take the Liberty of their own words 6. The sum is the Presbyterians hold the Church of Rome to be a false Church and say you may not gather a Church out of a true Church The Episcopal Divines say that the Church of Rome is truely a Church but not true as a Church should be but false and corrupt both in her Doctrine and Worship so as none can lawfully joyn with her And yet the Church of England is both truly a Church and a a true Church where the Word of God is truly taught whose Doctrine the very Non-Conformists approve of in whose worship many of them say we may joyn without sin where the Sacraments are also rightly administred And therefore without all further controversie they may hold that it is lawful to separate from the Church of Rome but sinful to separate from the Church of England and yet not be able to see what Answer you may give them 7. Besides lastly you may easily know that our eminent Fathers say that if we are in Schism from Rome the Papists themselves were guilty of it in Henry the 8th yea that we did not do not separate from the Church of Rome for we really were never of that Church We never did owe any Communion to to that Church That under the encouragement of own Government and by the authority thereof we onely reformed our selves without separating from Rome or any other Church And if so as in truth it is much good may your Consequence do you 8. But he also intimates a Reflection upon our Churches He doth not indeed speak out but he speaks as if our Parochial Assemblies were either no true Churches or such as we may lawfully Separate from Hear him p. 15. where he first coâ—cedes fairly We do believe saith he that from a Church a number of Christians that have consented to a Pastor that is able and faithful and regularly administers the Ordinances of Christ so as a People may communicate without sin and pressing forward towards perfection in order Christians may not separate without sin And this is that indeed saith he which some Presbyterians reflected upon our Brethren of the Congregational way for And these were those Parochial Churches which they contended for as true Churches And now the bottom is out and his Fallicy is apparent in his foisting I would use an easier word if I could his foisting in now and strange matter into the nature of a true Church and then fathering it upon the Presbyterians when 't is purely Independent Brownistical or his own For if there be any consequence in what he hath said 't is this A Church where the Pastor is duly qualified and the People consent to him and both press forward towards perfection in order you may not separate from But if the Pastor be not in all points well qualified or if the People do not approve of him or if they do noâ— press forward towards perfection in order one may separatâ— from such a Church and the laâ— Presbyterians said nothing to the contrary But suppose the Pastor be faulty in some particulars of his life if he regularly administers in his Office or suppose he be a good man and a diligent Minister and be set over a People by the Laws of our own Church but the People do not like him will you say this is no true Church for these Reasons If you are a Presbyterian you dare not May one separate from such a Church for these Reasons or for these Reasons may you betake your self to a Church of another Constitution was ever this the opinion of the Old Non-Conformists or late Presbyterians Say it not for shame But the weight is behind in the last condition Pressing forward towards Perfection in order These were the Parochial Churches where this excellency was found which the late Presbyterians conâ—ended for as true Churches Thus he would draw his Presbyterian Brethren to own that which is contrary to their express sense and words for they did ex professo dispute that order and discipline was not essential to a true Church and onely for the want of it none might separate In earnest Suppose a Church thinks her Order as to the Government is as perfect as she can or need to have it And she desires that the Execution were better but cannot have it so Yea suppose a Church too careless in this matter whether it be well or no will you or any Presbyterian say it is therefore no true Church or we may therefore separate from it Was not this the Case of the Church of Corinth Doth the Apostle advise or allow any Separation in this case Though their Doctrine also was more corrupt then Arminianism that so much offends you and their Communion debauched even with Intemperance and Luxury Besides whatever unjust and unconscionable clamours we labour under we are ready to maintain that our Ministers generally are of holy and unblameable Lives and do faithfully and regularly administer both the Word and Sacraments and that our People generally do or very lately did submit to their Parochial Ministers and really own them as their Guides by their attendance upon the worship of God in our Temples and those few that did not I hope I have sufficiently proved that they ought to have done it And now I shall venture to appeal to the Conscience of my Reflecter himself whether so general and total a defection and decession from a true Church as he seemeth to acknowledge some of ours to be and if any sure they are such as they separate from would have been judged other then Schismatical by the Apostles themselves or by the Fathers or by the reformed Churches beyond Sea or by our own ancient Non-Conformists if no other Reason could be alledged for it but what he hath here urged As for the late Presbyterians indeed it is the very question what they thought of this point and whether it be lawful in their Judgment for such Reasons as he hath brought us to separate and to gather our People into new Churches will better appear from their own words for they can yet speak for themselves and you will find they do it fully in the following Dialogue What the Reflection means by P. 14. putting A Subjection in all the Ordinances of the Gospel to the Lord Jesus Christ into the definition of the Church I cannot certainly divine but if it signifie any thing more then the received Definitions of a true Church it signifies nothing but an Engine of Divisions The Presbyterians perhaps will have it in to serve his Ruling Elder The Independent to keep out all Forein Jurisdiction and keep himself exempt from all power without the bounds of a particular Church The Anabaptist for the necessity of Baptizing as necessary to a true Church And thus it becomes an Instrument fitted for the mutual damning one another Whereas if the difinition of Calvin and reformed Divines keep its
authority viz. that where the Word of God is truly preach'd and the Sacraments rightly administred there is a true Church Mr. Baxter hath room enough for his large Charity to think they are all true Churches though Schismatical That is though they are made up of Sheep gone astray from their proper Folds to which they yet owe themselves and ought to return A Dialogue BETWIXT THE INDEPENDENT AND PRESBYTERIAN About gathering of CHURCHES Taken out of a Book called the Grand Debate and Papers therein Printed as they were given in to the Committy of Lords and Commons and Assembly of Divines with the Commissioners of Scotland for Acommodation 1644. Printed in 1648. LONDON Printed for James Collins at the Kings Arms in Ludgate-street 1673. TO THE Reader Good Reader PErhaps thou mayest censure me too severe with my Answerers in expposing this old difference to a publick review but why then did they give me so great an advantage and provoke me to take it in my own defense Why did they Scandalize the World and many of their own Friends too who are yet living Witnesses of that so notorious a contest by mincing the matter seeming shy to acknowledge that the then Presbyterians were against gathering new Churches out of the Parochial To say nothing of their opinion of Toleration For what Toleration as to our purpose could they that were Presbyterians be thought â—â— indulge who so stifly refused to allow it to their Independent Brethren particularly in the very point of gathering Churches In this following Dialogue you have no feigned disguise on either side but both speaking over again their own Sense and Reason and words throughout almost verbatim As they were given in by themselves to the Committee of the long Parliament as appears in the second part of the grand Debate published by Persons intrusted by both Parties By way of Introduction You need not be remembred that the Presbyterians were earnest for an establishment with Uniformity and did declare that the Members of particular Congregations do cohabit and live together within certain bounds and Precincts of a Parish p. 6. n. 9. The Independents not well satisfied moved for an Indulgence and the Dialague may be supposed to begin thus A DIALOGUE Betwixt the INDEPENDENT AND PRESBYTERIAN Taken out of Papers given to the Committee of Lords and Commons and Assembly of Divines with the Commissioners of Scotland for Accomodations 1644. Printed 1648. Indep WE are not against your Rule and the establishment you desire onely we cannot in Conscionce be so confined And therefore we desire liberty to worship God in our own way by our selves Presh We are not altogether against an Indulgence but we would have none allowed the benefit of it but such as agree with us as to the substance of their Faith and Worship Indep Therefore you cannot deny it to us who thus agree with you Presh 1. But your desire plainly holds out a total separation As if our Churches were not to be communicated with in any thing which should argue church-Church-Communion and more could not be said or done against false Churches 2. It also plainly holds out the lawfulness of gathering Churches out of true Churches yea they add by way of aggravation the cause of our Reflecters mistake such true Churches as endeavour further to reform Whereof we are assured there is not the least hint of an Example in the Word of God 3. This liberty would pull down what the Parliament would set up and would give you a greater priviledge then we enjoy who are under the Rule of establishment 4. This would give countenance to a perpetual Schism and Division in the Church still drawing away from the Churches under the Rule c. and introduce all manner of confusion in Families where the Members are of several Churches Indep What liberty then are you contented to allow us that differ from you almost in nothing but matters of Government Presb. None may be allowed upon differences onely in matter of Government to withdraw Communion from us in things wherein they declare an agreement There may be no such indulgence granted to any as may constitute them in distinct Congregations as to those parts of worship where they can joyn in Communion with us Onely some expedient may be found to bear with them in the particulars wherein they cannot agree with us Indep What expedient Presb. Such as through scruple or error of Conscience cannot joyn to partaâ—e of the Lords Supper shall repair to the Minister and Elders for satisfaction in their Scruples which if they cannot receive they shall not be compelled to communicate Provided that in all other parts of worship they joyn with the Congregation in which they live and be under the Government of that Congregation So far you have in p. 18 19 20 c. Indep If this be all we must be pâ—ain with you We can't joyn with you without sin We would not liâ—ve without Ordinances And for the enjoyment of them for for our edâ—fiâ—cation we would joyn in another Congregation Yet so as not condemning those Churches we joyn not with as false but still preserving all Christian Communion with the Saints of the same body of the Church Catholick and joyn with them in all duties of worship that belong to particular Churches so far as we are able If this be called Schisme or the countenance of Schism it is more than we have yet learned p. 36. Is not this a very fair Plea It was once Independency And the Presbyterians then answer'd to it in every particular Indep We cannot without sin to us enjoy all the Ordinances of Christ and partake of all duties of worship as Members of that Congregation where our dwelling is And what would you have us do Presb. If you cannot in all yet partake in as many duties and ordinances as you can And let the Indulgence onely supply that wherein you cannot and not exempt you universally in that wherein you can But we desire you would speak freely and candidly Can you enjoy any one Ordinance in our Congregation as Members We should be glad to hear from you that you can be Members of that Congregation where your dwelling is p. 70. Indep But you know we cannot live without Ordinances for our edification Therefore for our spiritual good we may lawfully joyn in another Congregation Presb. 1. This will not follow upon your own Concession For you consess you can occasionally joyn with us without sin and why not constantly 2. Your Conscience may erre And the Church is no way bound to indulge a liberty then especially to the evident disturbance of her own peace 3. Whatever indulgence is granted let this be the boundary of it which is given by our Brethren themselves viz. that such as give no Testimony of their Godliness and Peaceableness such as have not used all means in faithfulness to know the mind of Christ such as do condemn those Churches which they joyn not with as