TWO DIALOGVES OR CONFERENCES ABOVT an old question lately renued and by the Schismaticall company both by printed Pamphlets and otherwise to the disturbance of the Churches quiet and of peaceable minds very hotly pursued Concerning Kneeling in the very act of receiuing the Sacramental bread and wine in the Supper of the Lord. The former Betweene two Ministers of the word the one refractarie and depriued the other not so The latter Betweene an humorous Schismatike and a setled professor 1. COR. 1. 20. Where is the wise where is the Scribe where is the disputer of this world 1. COR. 11. 16. If any man lust to be contentious we haue no such custome nor the Churches of GOD. Printed by HENRY BALLARD 1608. The points in the first Dialogue discussed Whether in the ministring and receiuing the Communion wee are necessarily to imitate Christ. Obiection 1. Whether Kneeling at the receiuing the holy Communion hath an apparance of euill Obiect 2. Whether Kneeling at the Sacrament be a monument of Idolatry Obiect 3. Whether Kneeling c. bee a iust offence giuen to the weake Obiect 4. Whether Kneeling c. do strengthen the Papists in their bread-worship Obiect 5. Whether Kneeling c. bee a meere institution of man Obiect 6. Whether Kneeling c. be a breach of the second Commandement Obiect 7. Whether Kneeling c. be vrged aboue the commandement of God Obiect 8. Whether no man that Kneeleth can haue faith Obiect 9. TO THE RIGHT REuerend Father in God Thomas by the diuine prouidence Bishop of London his very honorable good Lord. Right reuerend IT is a most true and memorable saying of that ancient eloquent learned Father Saluianus B. of Massilia that to fal into the error of a false opinion though ignorantly before a man doth know the truth is a token of a mind rude and simple but to perseuere in error after one hath bin told and admonished of the same is an argument of a pertinacious froward disposition So S. Augustine Aliquid aliter sapere to relish a thing otherwise then it is is an humane tentation and infirmitie but for a man too much to be inamored with his owne conceit or enuying his betters to come vnto the sacriledge euen of renting asunder the communion of the Church and of erecting of schisme or heresie it is diabolical presumption And yet this frowardnes or pertinacy or diuellish pride and presumption is so ingraffed in the hearts of most men as Erasmus hath obserued and experience doth proue vnto vs as what once they haue apprehended they will euer hold and what they haue published they will not reuoke be it neuer so offensiue and in their owne conscience erroneous and vntrue Erasmus doth well note how most natures be stiffe in maintenance of their singular and selfe conceited fantasies God be thanked all men be not so For of all professions sects and sorts of men euen from the beginning since learning and wisedome by writing or bookes hath bin made knowne and obuious there haue neuer bin wanting some who haue bin inspired with such grace and good motions as that they haue very ingenuously acknowledged their scapes and willingly submitted vnto the trueth when it hath bin reuealed vnto them howsoeuer afore they were otherwise minded and aduersaries thereunto So did Quintilian yea and Tullie too afore him change their iudgements in points of Rhetoricke so did Hippocrates that so renowned Physition in matters of Physick so Cornelius Agrippa about his hidden Philosophy Orpheus that Polytheian sang a palinodie acknowledging one God at the length who defended a multitude of Gods at the first and S. Augustine too when his gray haires were growen most conscionably and to his eternall fame and honor very wisely corrected and retracted what in his greene yeres in considerately he had broched Neither in the times long past onely but in this latter age also of the world wherein we liue haue such good spirits appeared Theodorus Gaza for learning a rare man almost peerelesse had his proper and peculiar errors which when he saw he was not ashamed to reuoke them and to alter his iudgement vpon the admonition of Trapezuntius Yea and Theodorus Beza no meane man neither in his time as he was not without his faults so had he not the face to iustifie or stand stiffe in them but very Christianly and as one studious to keepe a good conscience both before God and man grewe into an vtter detestation of and amended them with points too of doctrine that gaue offence as our Whitakers doth say Of whose mind had Heliodorus Bishop somtime of Trice bin when it was he had comfortably enioyed still a faire and fat Bishopricke which fondly hee did forgoe because he would not consent to the burning of certaine amorous and prophane inuentions penned by the said Heliodorus in his youth but for their vilenes by an whole Synod or Conuocation of Bishops and other clergy men condemned to the fire as Nicephorus doth record I spare to speake of Luther Melancton Caluin and other learned men neither few nor of meane account among all reformed Churches and people who preferring Gods glory before popular praise haue satisfied good men and made publike amends for some things vnaduisedly published Neither haue there bin wanting some such among our selues God be thanked Ah gentlemen saith a late writer in this kingdome that liue to read my broken and confused lines looke not that I should as I was wont delight you with vaine fantasies but gather my follies together and as you would deale with so many paricides cast them into the fire call them Telegones for now they kill their Father and euery line in them written is a deepe piercing wound to mine heart euery idle houre spent by any in reading them brings a million of sorrowes to my soule O that the teares of a miserable man for neuer man was more miserable might wash their memory out with my death But sith they cannot let this my last worke witnesse against them with me how I detest them Blacke is the remembrance of my blacke workes blacker then night blacker then death blacker then hell So he and euen in these very words which would both Gentle and all men well consider of and ponder neither should the Presse and Stationers shops be abused as they are inuenting such bookes to the high dishonour of God and discredite of our Churches discipline nor men and women leauing better things addict themselues so greedily to the perusall if not studie of vanities which bring no good but woful repentance in the end The man which this vttered was himselfe a good Scholar but euen as his very words doe import a very vaine and vicious man yet euen such persons with Publicans and Harlots sometimes doe repent and to the great ioy of the holy Angels enter into the kingdome of heauen as doe Schismatikes also now and then but rarely yet and as hardly as doe rich men
immediatly after our speeches and that not onely for himselfe and peraduenture for others too of the Brother-hood better to consider of but also for the satisfaction of him besides who both motioned the same at the first and desired it might be written for a further good And being committed to writing had so continued priuate in few mens hands for any thing that was in my thought God hee knoweth touching the publication of the same had not some persons neere and deere vnto your Lordshippe and for their vertues learning and iudgement of more then ordinary account in our Church and State vpon reasons both speciall and vrgent very earnestly moued me to make the same more common The other was occasioned by a certaine printed Libell of not aboue two sheetes of paper of which bulke or thereabouts myselfe haue seene diuers treatises published by the Sectaries An. 1605. and so made purposely they knowing and foreseeing that bookes of that size and of small price are both more readily bought vp on all hands especially of the common people whose fauour they hunt and hawke after more greedily read more easily vnderstood then large tedious and deere discourses published I wot not by whom and printed I know not where but doubtlesse beyond the Sea for the Printer wanted an English Corrector but wheresoeuer and by whomsoeuer printed and published which for my part I shall not be curious to inquire after as the publisher would not haue any man to be I haue thought it my bounden duety to answere and confute the same both because it is of the same verie subiect which the former is namely against kneeling at the communion as against flat Idolatrie as also for that the same is purposely diuulged both to harden such persons among vs whereof the number is but too greate in their folly as imbrace and hold that errour and to allure so many of our Church as possibly may be to be of that opinion And therefore both for the further and fuller manifestation of the truth by answering what the aduersaries hitherto haue deuised and dispersed as well in papers priuately as publiquely in print against the said Kneeling for the vpholding of Schisme and faction in that point and likewise for the preseruation of many in the peace and vnity of our Church and deliuery of others so far as in me lieth from this foule and lothsome opinion I haue thought it expedient yea very necessary the times considered to vndertake this labour Whereby whatsoeuer the author of the said Libel hath obiected is both answered and confuted and what he hath written verballie and syllabicallie the order of a dialogue onely considered and obserued yea and without omitting so much as a letter set downe This I speake of the booke it selfe For as touching the Preface it being partlie slanderous and reprochfull partly inticing all sorts of people vnto an open rupture schisme and forsaking of our Communions because of the said Kneeling I haue not medled therewithall being for my part of all other men both most vnwilling to spend good and pretious houres about such matter as cannot be stirred without offending the eares and stomackes of good men and most hartilie sorie that any men pretending sinceritie as all Schismatikes doe should either employ their pennes or thinke that euen their cause can be blessed of the highest which hath no better meanes then lies slanders diffamations and abandoning the Vnion and Communion of Gods people to vphold and support itselfe withall Now these my labours I verie humblie desire your Lordship to accept at the hands of an old Oxford and Christ-church man to whom it is no small ioy and comfort that he liueth to see that Vniuersitie equall at least with any other place of Learning in the word famouslie and admirablie to flourish and of that Vniuersitie to obserue men of Christ-church for their rare and singular endowments to be of such note and regard with the King and State as that the gouernment of foure chiefe and eminent places and Dioceses in this land is at this present committed to their trust and inspection as most worthy Patrons and pillars for the supporting both of the vncorrupt doctrine and holy discipline in this Church established And though I doubt not but I am knowne vnto all your Honours in some sort being sometime a poore member with you all at one and the same time of one and the same Colledge or Cathedrall Church yet doe I acknowledge this and what els I am able to performe due vnto your Lordship more then vnto any other man partly for that which it hath pleased you of late to write both vnto mee and touching me in your letters vnto that all worthie M. D. Tinley Arch-deacon of Elie my right worshipfull good friend which I haue both seene and read and with a thankefull minde recognise partly for that which it hath pleased your Lordship to say vtter vnto my selfe since my comming vnto London and especially because you haue vouchsafed to testifie your well liking of what I haue done both by a more then ordinarie approbation and desire that it might come abroad and also by commending of the same vnto the presse for the furtherance of the worke and better publishing it vnto the world Acknowledging therefore these your manifold vndeserued fauours with a very thankefull heart and promising my best to deserue them I earst and againe very humbly desire your good Lordship to accept these treatises with the former and same affections at my poore hands in respect of my owne handling simple and slender bee they I confesse but for their subiect and these times of Schisme wherein many writers and spreaders of new and false doctrines may be seene but few confuters of them many disturbers of our Church and vnderminers of the peace and prosperitie thereof by factious and Schismaticall discourses but few counterminers or that stand in the breach to keepe these aduersaries out of the Citie of God and from the sheep-fold of Christ very necessarie and worthie your Lordships patronage and protection and so very humbly taketh his leaue the fourth of May Anno. 1608. Your Lordships alwaies to command THOMAS ROGERS THE FIRST DIALOGVE or conference for the finding out of the truth touching kneeling in the act of receiuing the Supper of the Lord. THE SPEAKERS Seffray Rogers S. WE ought herein to imitate Christ. R. That is not simplie and absolutely true For in the administration of the Lords Supper we are to imitate Christ but onely in things necessarie not accessorie and substantiall not circumstantiall and accidentall Christ is to be followed of vs not as he was God but as he was man and as man in his Morall euer not alwayes in his Ministeriall actions Our Sauiour willeth vs in the celebration of this Sacrament and the deliuerie of bread and wine to renue the memorie of his death and passion till he returne againe but not to vse his
to be receiued as the Lords supper on our part nor any part of the same Supper to bee performed with like ceremonies of zeale and deuotion as the verie taking and receiuing the bread and wine neither can wee so expresse and testifie the same reuerence as by Kneeling Your selfe afore saide then which you neuer spake truer words how the most solemne signe of reuerence is Kneeling The Sacrament is called you say The Communion be it so It is likewise called The new Testament and of the Fathers The Sacrament Eucharisticall or of Thanksgiuing and can we better manifest our thankfull hearts vnto our heauenly father then on bended knees And can there be no Communion euen at the Communion if we Kneele Doth the externall either Kneeling Sitting or Standing further or hinder our Communion betweene Christ and his Church These things dulie considered we ought not to imagine but that Christ aswell is honoured and better by Kneeling in the act of receiuing then by any other site or gesture of bodie whatsoeuer Schis That cannot be seeing it swarueth not onely from his example but also from the practise of all reformed churches except in England which the Papists themselues call Puritano-papisticall by retaining this and other Popish corruptions Pro. The swaruing from the example of Christ is no strong and true Argument that wee dishonour God in so doing For if that were true no Curch should bee pure from dishonouring God You cannot name a Church or companie of Christians in the whole world which in the ministring and receiuing the Supper of the Lord varieth not from Christ his example and that manifoldly which yet in their ministrations doe honour God If England herein doe swarue from all reformed Churches will you therefore conclude that the Church of England onely doth dishonour God We condemne not other Churches for their not Kneeling neither doth any Church nor should you Schismatikes condemne ours for our Kneeling And yet false is it that we Christians in England onely when we communicate do Kneele For all the Churches in Basill Saxonie Denmarke and many in Germanie by the orders of their seuerall Churches at the Communion as well as wee in England doe kneele Either therefore those Churches be not in the number of Churches reformed in your iudgement or they dishonour God by their said Kneeling so well as wee the former of which you will not I thinke say and if you should all Gods faithfull seruants thorowout the world will condemne you for your headie and vncharitable iudgement the latter you should not without blushing affirme and wee are so farre from imagining that thereby wee dishonour God as wee are of minde that God is by no externall site or gesture of bodie at the Communion so honoured as by Kneeling What the Papists thinke of and terme the Church of England wee are not ignorant neither doe regard But how Popish they thinke our Kneeling at the holie Communion to bee iudge by their wordes expressing their thoughts of the holy Supper which they terme A peeuish Supper fitter for Pagans than Christians more meete for dogges then men proceeding directly from the Diuell Can any man thinke our kneeling to bee a Popish corruption either hearing these things or reading them either in Popish writings or truly cited out of Popish bookes They abhorre our bread and wine as Schismaticall as hereticall as leading the high way to Gods wrath and indignation to hell damnation It is no Popish corruption which they so abhorre much lesse abhorre they our Kneeling as Popish yea they abhorre it because it is not Popish They are simple and verie strangers from the Papists opinions of our Church and her ceremonies which so thinke and speake Schis Such Kneeling may be an argument especially to a Papist not vnderstanding our tongue that we haue Communion with Antichrist and his Synagogue at least in the Idolatrie of bread-worship which our failng or carelesnesse to auow our Communion with Christ and his Church and not abhorring all Communion with Antichrist and his Synagogue cannot be without grieuous sinne Pro. If what last I said be true as no right Papist whether he vnderstand our tongue or not cannot bee doubtfull of our Kneeling cannot possiblie bee any Argument of Communion with Antichrist and his Synagogue in Idolatrie Besides what Papist is there but knoweth that the bread wine at the Altar once consecrated by their doctrine are transubstantiated forthwith into the verie bodie and blood of Christ and being so transubstantiated by and by as the onely begotten Sonne of God both of Priest and people vnder the paine of the Pope his curse with diuine honour and worship to be adored To haue these thoughts and to exhibit this adoration vnto the elements this is to communicate with Antichrist and his Synagogue but our reuerend and humble Kneeling at the taking and receiuing the bread wine in a thankfull remembrance of the death of Christ and of all the benefits we are partakers of by his passion that without althought or shew of adoring the bread and wine this is no communicating with Antichrist his Synagogue Hauing these cogitations though we Kneele wee haue Communion with Christ and his Church and hauing not these thoughts wee haue no Communion at all with his Church though wee Sit and Kneele not As therefore it is not the Kneeling but the impious conceits wherewith their hearts bee possessed and replenished when they approch to the Sacrament that maketh the Papists to be Idolaters so neither doth our Kneeling exclude vs from all Communion with Christ and his Church nor your Sitting that ioyneth you in fellowship with the same As grosse Idolatrie may you commit in not Kneeling as any persons euer did or as the Papists now doe in Kneeling But we charge not you as you do vs yet very vncharitably whose part were rather to conceiue better of them whose doctrine in the most principal points of Religion about the Sacrament especially is one and the same with yours light being not more contrarie to darknesse nor heauen to hell then what both ye which Sit and wee which Kneele doe hold therein is opposite and contrarie to the doctrine of the Synagogue of Rome Wherefore as we say not that yee differing from vs that Kneele haue no Communion with Christ and his church because ye Sit and doe commit a grieuous sinne did yee not offend against publique order for that with vs yee Kneele not no more should ye haue so much as an imagination that we haue Communion with Antichrist and his Synagogue because wee Kneele and doe commit a grieuous sinne for that with you we Sit not when wee doe receiue especially seeing God doth not forbid and Christian authoritie commandeth vs to Kneele Sittng kneeling are but outward ceremonies nothing to the substance of Religion concerning the true communion with Christ and his Church at all and of themselues indifferent did not the
godly Magistrate enioine the one and prohibit the other Finally as you which Sit and we which Kneele differ in ceremonies but not in the maine points of doctrine and in this latter respect hold communion all of vs with Christ and his Church at least in externall profession so we which agree with the Church of Rome in some Ceremonies disagree from the same in most materiall points of doctrine and substance of true religion haue no fellowship at all or communion with the Synagogue of Antichrist For it is not the same Ceremonies but the same profession of faith and doctrine that causeth the communion Schis If we may Kneele then did Paul sinne when hee rebuked Peter for not holding Communion with the Gentiles conuerted Pro. This is no good consequent If wee sinne not in Kneeling Paul must sin in rebuking Peter for not holding communion with the Gentiles conuerted No sir neither do we sinne in kneeling nor did Paul sinne in rebuking Peter For that Paul had iust cause and performed the part of a faithfull and worthie Apostle of Christ in rebuking Peter the Scripture beareth witnesse which telleth vs first that to Peter it was reuealed as to a man so notable that hee might conuerse with the Gentiles conuerted vnto Christ next that Peter had consented vnto the ordinances of the Apostles at Ierusalem namely in discharging the Gentiles from the yoake of Iewish Ceremonies Thirdlie that Peter notwithstanding contrarie to the vision of the Lord and decrees of the Apostles not onely sequestred himselfe suddainly from the fellowship of the Gentiles professing Christ but also ioined with the Iewes thereby against his conscience both confirming the blind Iewes in their erroneous conceits touching the lawe of Moses and making the Gentiles to stand in doubt what they should do so offending both God and good men drawing other Christians into the same sins through his halting and dissimulation And therefore well might and both rightly was Peter blamed of the Apostle Saint Paul But what Communion haue we that Kneele with Peters sinne or yee with Pauls vertues that reproue vs for kneeling Haue we either by reuelation beene told that wee may not Kneele as Peter was that hee might conuerse with the Gentiles or haue wee at any Synod or lawfull Councell set Gods people free from the obseruation of all ecclefiastical constitutions especially vsed or abused rather in the Church of Rome as in the Councell at Ierusalem with other Peter discharged the Gentiles from the bondage of the Mosaicall ceremonies Or finally haue wee abandoned at anie time all Communion euen in Ceremonies with the Synagogue of Rome yet to gratifie or rather to harden them in their superstition entertained them againe and against our certaine knowledge and conscience as Peter did the lawes of Ceremonies by leauing the societie of the Gentiles to the hie offence of Paul and such as â—uly feared God If these nor any of these faults appeare in vs which were not obscurely in Peter surely though Paul did not sinne in reprouing Peter yet doe you and the like Censurers verie ill in reprouing vs like Pauls seeing in vs there be none of the vices and visible faults of Peter Paul therefore might well blame Peter for halting when you cannot without blame and shame too reproue vs for kneeling Schis If we sinne not in kneeling Paul wrote without warrant when he said If any lust to be contentious we haue no such custome neither the Churches of God Pro. These words of S. Paul when I consider me thinks I see the holy Apostle looking sowrly and speaking sharply but against whom Against peaceable men No but against contentious persons And whom deeming contentious Orderly men conforming themselues to the lawfull and approued constitutions of the Church No but against such as would not yeeld obedience vnto such decrees but thought themselues free from all obedience vnto publique orders of the Church which kind of men the Apostle loathed euen from his soule and others inspired with the holie spirit haue termed such persons men vnmeet to liue or haue societie with men in this life The Anabaptists were such kind of men saith Peter Martyr and wee know the same to be the fault both of our home or exiled Brownists and of all you Sectaries who will giue none obedience to the impositions and institutions of the church at least but to what you list how orderly soeuer established and making neuer so well to edification and order As therefore hearing that some men in the Church euen of meere frowardnesse and for none other cause would not yeeld that either their wiues daughters or other women should be couered or themselues vncouered though the Church had decreed they should because to be couered or not couered was a thing indifferent and they would not be brought into bondage about such matters by any power of the Church when God had giuen no such expresse and particular commandement the Apostle doth very roundly and angerly here take vp such men So me thinkes you and all others walking in the verie steppes of those ancient perturbers of the Churches quiet should take these wordes as truely and seuerely to be spoken against you as euer they were against the contemners of Apostolicall and Ecclesiasticall authority in Saint Pauls time Sure I am the meditation of these things addeth both comfort and encouragement vnto vs which orderly doe Kneele and in Kneeling keepe orders but how they should alter our minds from performing this obedience being vttered euen by the chiefe masters and makers of order and for continuance of good orders in the Church he must be sharpe sighted that can perceiue Wherefore the words touch not vs at all that kneele but you that will not kneele neither sinned the Apostle in writing but you in wresting those words to the nourishment of contention which hee penned for the continuance and increase of peace among the people of God Schis The same Apostle to the same effect What Communion saith he hath Christ with Belial either must Saint Paul vtter this without warrant or in kneeling wee doe grieuously sinne Pro. But if neither wee sinne in kneeling nor the Apostle in writing of those words what is to be thought of you that so charge the Apostle and vs That wee sinne not in Kneeling hath beene demonstrated sufficientlie before by our not communicating thereby with Antichrist though we doe kneele And therefore your fault must be hainous in an high degree in charging the Apostle to haue written without warrant then with a greater reproach was neuer nor could euer be laid vpon the writings of S. Paul What communion hath Christ with Belial saith Saint Paul the same what communion hath Christ with Belial saith Gods Church What is Belial but one without yoake without law meant principallie of Sathan the author and father of all disobedience misrule and disorders Hence is sinne named anomie as who saies
still in hand There be actions of the minister and of the people and yet all ceremoniall and significant The action of the minister giuing the bread and wine representeth Gods action in giuing Christ with his benefits to the particular communicants Againe the action whether by sitting kneeling or by whatsoeuer done of receauing the bread and wine seuerallie resembleth another speciall action of the beleeuing heart which applieth Christ vnto it selfe for the pardon of sinne and life euerlasting This is M. Perkins iudgement Finally among the actions of the Communicants sitting the ceremonie which you so stand for condemning all other sites especialle Kneeling doth it not in the opinion of the admonishioners signifie rest that is a full finishing through Christ of all the ceremoniall law and a perfect worke of redemption wrought that giueth rest for euer But that is a childish pedagogie saie you not iustified by that worthy seruant of Christ Master Cartwright And yet euen you his disciple Schismatike which giue vs here a caueat not to take sitting to signifie such arest euen you take your sitting to be as childish a pedagogie as significant a ceremonie maintaining the said sitting to be a signe and token of the reioycing familiaritie and familiar reioycing betweene Christ and his Church for to this end tendeth this whole section and discourse SECT 7. Whether Christ sat of purpose Schis THat kneeling may be more soundly conuinced as a will-worship obiections are to be answered Pro. Conuicted hitherto you haue not much lesse soundly conuinced Kneeling to be a wil-worship and therefore more soundly you cannot yea neuer soundly shall yee conuince the same to be a wil-worshippe though your will be good But do your indeauour inuent obiections and set downe your answers that we may see how well you can effect that which you haue in purpose Schis Therefore where it is supposed that Christ and his Apostles ministred and receiued Sitting but by occasion and not of purpose because they were Sitting before in eating the Passeouer whereas if Christ had Sitten downe of purpose to administer the Communion then all that is said is granted to be to some purpose Pro. Indeed that Christ did Sit at his holy Communion is but a supposall There is a marginall annotation in the Geneua Bible which speaketh thus Their fashion was not to Sit at table but hauing their shooes off and cushions vnder their elbowes leaned on their sides as it were halfe lying If Christ did not Sit as these men say and againe if halfe lying bee not to Sit surely it must be more then halfe a lie without all supposals to affirme our Sauiour as often as you haue done to haue sat at the Sacred boord Your selfe also at the first did but suppose our Sauiour to haue Sitten when you said He ministred Sitting or in such a gesture as in those countries was most vsed But without supposals grant he did sit and of purpose too when he administred the Communion yet what by you hitherto hath beene said to this purpose ought not sure I am will neuer be acknowledged by me to be spoken to any purpose but idlely What say you hereto Schis The answer is short yet full Pro. Expresse it Schis Christ did sit of purpose when he ministred his last Supper For after the Passeouer he rose washed his disciples feete and sate downe againe Pro. Surely what Christ did was purposely done The originall is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated Rursum discumbens he lying downe againe For Notum est saith Beza it is well knowne how men in old time the Iewes especially were wont at the table Non sedere sed recumbere notto sit but to lie or leane themselues downe Besides the example you bring of our Sauior Christ is of good regard For as the Euangelist hath described Christ before this holy supper after the Passeouer laid aside his vpper garment and tooke a towell girded himselfe After that he powred water into a Bason and began to wash the disciples feete and to wipe them with the towell wherewith he was girded And after he had washed their feete and had taken his garments and was set or laid downe againe hee said vnto them Know you what I haue done to you c. If I then your Lord and maister haue washed your feet yee also ought towash one anothers feete So did and so spake our Sauiour Christ thereby not onely mouing by his example but also enioyning them by strong reason to do that which himselfe had done yet is there not one among you the most earnest vrgers of this Sitting and that after the example of Christ that either doe as our Sauiour did before hee administred this Sacrament or regard his motion Wherein if you doe well you may further see that Christ his actions are not necessarily to be followed alwayes in matters ceremoniall especially as afore hath beene said SECT 8. Whether Christ prescribed a speciall gesture for the Communion Schis IT may be demanded why the church is not bound to the time of Euening aswell as to the gesture of Sitting sith Christ obserued the one as well as the other Pro. You hold still the Church is bound to the gesture of Sitting But you are to bee put in minde how this is but a meere fancie of yours Your worthie master Cartwright dissenteth herein from you as otherwayes sometime he dissenteth from his well fauoured Admonitioners For it is not of necessitie saith hee that wee should receiue the Communion Sitting If otherwise the man had not erred hee should neuer haue troubled nor offended our Church as like a most vnworthie Minister thereof he hath done But I pray you why are we bound to the gesture of Sitting not bound to the time of Euening especially being sure that Christ administred his Sacrament in the night but are not sure that he sate Schis It may bee answered Time being a common circumstance to euerie action for nothing can bee done but in some time the particular time is not to bee obserued except Christ had sanctified it to the Communion as GOD sanctified the seuenth day on which hee rested or at least chose it of purpose as hee did Sitting Pro. A certaine gesture say you but no certaine time was chosen by Christ who appointing no time when doth choose a manner how his Supper should bee ministred viz. in your opinion Sitting And yet the Scripture beareth witnesse to nothing more plainly that hee instituted and celebrated his Supper in the night choosing that speciall time for that purpose as well as the Sitting you speake of But if hee chose no such time as you would make the world beleeue but left the time free and at the libertie of his people to limit then made hee no more choice of Sitting then of anie other site For hee either chose both or neither and wee are no more tied to the necessarie obseruation
or the Apostles gestures at the deliuerie of the elements Hence the Apostle Paul did alter some things which our Sauiour did in the administration of the Lords Supper promising also at his returne to set other things in order which Saint Augustine vnderstandeth of the same forme and maner of ministring the same which is now obserued in our Churches reformed Lastly if herein we be necessarily tied to the example of Christ then are we to minister this Sacrament not as wee doe now in the publique Church but in a priuate house not in the morning but in the night not after dinner but after supper not vnto women but onely vnto men and those Ministers too of the word For all this did Christ and we doe not and yet herein doe nothing against the will of God S. Christ performed this action sitting Mat. 26. 20. Mar. 14. 18. Luke 22. 14. Iohn 13. 12. R. Meane you that the people should stand and the Minister sit because Christ performed this action sitting Or would you haue both Minister and people to sit when the Sacrament is to bee administred because Christ performed this action sitting What your meaning may be when you say Christ performed this action sitting is verie doubtfull and vncertaine If you would haue the people to stand and the Minister to sit because Christ performed this action sitting you aske more then I euer yet heard demanded If you would haue the people to sit and the Minister to stand you swarue from the imitation of Christ who performed this action sitting If you would that both Minister and people should sit because Christ performed this action sitting though you haue some few Churches concurring with you in your desires yet are you nothing neare the example of Christ which you would bind vs vnto For Christ did not performe this action after our maner sitting If you will imitate Christ in this action then must you lie downe on little pillowes at the table as he and his Disciples did and not sit as you would haue the Church S. That is no good consequent no more then this that we must in the supper vse thinne broad vnleauened cakes or loaues because Christ did so R. If Christ did so and yet we may vse in place thereof vsuall and not vnleauened bread at the Communion then by this your owne reason you may further see the insoundnesse of your first position which was that in the administration of the Lords Supper we ought to imitate Christ. S. It sufficeth that we sit according to the vsuall maner of our Countrie as he did after the maner of his R. The maner of our Countrie is to receiue our corporall food sitting the order of our Church that wee receiue the spirituall foode of our soules at the Communion kneeling It is as vndecent a thing in mine eie in the publique Church to receiue the food of our soules at the Lords table sitting as it is in our owne hall and houses to take our corporall meate kneeling It was in our Sauiour his choice to administer it lying sitting kneeling and how he thought good but it is not in our election that be either Ministers or people how we wil minister or take the same For it ought by our Lawes and orders to be receiued kneeling neither doth it suffice in respect of Church policie that we sit The vsuall maner of our Countrie is not onely to sit but to be couered also when we are at our meate ought wee therefore to haue our heads couered when wee are at the Lords Table you may as well say this as affirme the other Wherefore I denie not your consequent as perhaps you deeme I will but say as earst I did that wee are no more bound to our Sauiour his Sitting if he did sit as he did not then we are tied to celebrate the Lords Supper in the Euening in a priuate house to Men and those Ecclesiasticall Ministers and neither to women nor to the laitie S. There is a reason of the change of those circumstances as those which were incident properly to the first institution which was immediatly to succeed the last Passeouer which Passeouer was to be eaten in the Euening in a priuate family being sufficient for a Lambe Exod. 12. 3 4 5. 6 7 8. Now it tendeth to edification to celebrate the Supper in the day and openly in the Congregation consisting of beleeuers both men and women and therefore the Church hath done well in changing these circumstances according to the precept of the Apostle 1. Cor. 14. 26. R. You crosse not me at al but display still the vnsoundnes of your first assertion The Church after Christ both well might lawfully did both adde alter many things in the forme and maner of administration of the Lords Supper which our Sauiour either purposely omitted or left to her determination S. But there can no reason be rendred of changing Sitting into Kneeling R. Changing of sitting You cannot say and prooue that Christ sate as we doe at his last supper but otherwise you haue said But did he sit why may not the same his sitting by his Church be changed into kneeling as well as other circumstances by you repeated And what preheminence hath Sitting aboue Kneeling that it may and must be vsed at the Communion and not that what reason haue you to the contrarie S. Sitting is the most vsuall gesture in eating drinking R. Thinke you we are to carrie our selues none otherwise in the Church of God then in our own houses at the Lords Table then at our vsuall and dayly refeshings when our refections be diuers be our actions to be the same S. Sitting is fittest for the ease of the bodie best for signification of communion and fellowship both with Christ the head and with Christians the fellow members and safest to preuent artolatrie or Bread-worship which Christ in his wisedome foresaw and it is likelie by the gesture of Sitting did meete withall and preuent R. O M. S let it suffice vs poore inferiour persons and Ministers that we know o yet that wee knew so much what is fit and fittest good and best for our selues and ours as for what is fittest best and safest to be done in the publique assemblies of Gods people leaue we that vnto our betters to determine vnto whom it doth belong Would we not so quickly resolue and conclude what is better and best fitter and fittest in these matters it would goe better with vs and the whole Church too then alas it doeth Yet to tell you what I thinke though Sitting as we vse to sit at our common feastings is both comely and commen dable yet so to Sit at the Communion carrieth not that shew of humble reuerence vnto the al-holy God as Kneeling doth But to Lie or Leane or if you will to Sit at the Lords Table as our Sauiour and his Disciples did were verie vnseemly and vndecent among vs. S. This
chargeth Christ and his Apostles with want of reuerence which is absurd R. Not a whit For Christ and his Apostles did that which the custome both of those times and of their country made common and vsuall your selfe hath confessed And therfore both he and they did that which was both ciuill and comely Againe our Sauiour might do that surpassingly wel which we cānot Any action beseemed his person because without sin He graced all his gestures no gesture graced him But we alas we are sinfull wretches repairing vnto the Lords boord partly like supplicants humbly suing for the remission of our sinnes partly to shew our thankfulnesse for the comforts and benefites we haue receiued and hope to bee partakers of through Christ. And therefore haue iust cause euen most humbly to kneele as we do THE SECOND OBIECTION S. KNeeling in the receiuing the Lords Supper hath an apparance of euill R. From the commendation of Sitting how quickly are you come to the open condemnation of Kneeling at the L. table And a wonder it is if he that once falleth into a debasing of holy established orders in a church come not to an vtter detestation of them in the end Take heede in time If I should reason thus Sitting in the receiuing the Lords Supper hath an apparance of euill therfore to be auoided would you allow this argument for good No more doe I approue your kind of reasoning And yet sooner will I iustifie mine then you shall proue your Antecedent M. Beza saith that Kneeling in receiuing the signes hath a shew not of euill as you say but of godly and Christian veneration And this saying is true Did but an earthly King or Prince offer vs pardon for our transgressing his temporall statutes would it become vs or carried it a shew of reuerence to his Maiestie to receiue it Sitting And when grace and pardon for all our sinnes in the Sacrament of Christ his Supper is offered vnto vs by the seales of bread and wine carieth it a shew of euill to receiue it kneeling It is called the Sacrament of thankesgiuing euen for most heauenly benefites vnto Almightie God and with what better action of the bodie can wee testifie our thankfulnesse then on bended knees We offer vp our selues euen our soules and bodies an holy and liuely sacrifice vnto our God and is there any gesture that better becommeth such Priests then Kneeling Is this mysterie of so great waight as the open contempt thereof brings damnation and shall the receiuing thereof with the greatest shew of reuerence be counted if not an apparant euill yet an apparance of euill May the knee be bent at the name of Iesus and may we not kneele at the receiuing the holy Sacrament of his bodie and blood but we either do ill or seeme so to doe Must we humble our harts which is the greater not bend our knees which is the lesse Must we humble our hearts and not expresse our inward humiliation by outward Kneeling S. We may not R. Why so S. For it carrieth an apparance of Bread-worship Therefore to be auoided 1. Thes. 5. 12. R. You must iudge of our Kneeling by our doctrine as we iudge of the Papists kneeling by their doctrine we would not neither could we iustly condemne the Papists for their kneeling were not their doctrine most heretical and blasphemous Neither ought you to condemne our kneeling at the Cōmunion except you can shew the doctrine of the church of England is for the adoration of bread and wine Suscipitur ab artolatris Eucharistiae Sacramentum flexis poplitibus The Bread-worshippers receiue the Sacrament Eucharisticall on bended knees and here in England the faithfull take it with the same gesture of bodie whereat some are offended Sed meo iudicio nullâ de causa but in my iudgement without cause saith a learned man a stranger For both of them adore they that is the Papists the bread these viz. the faithfull in England not bread but Christ sitting at the right hand of the Father in the heauens I am sure there is not a syllable in the Communion booke that importeth any shew of this euill you speake of and our doctrine is as all the world doth know how to reserue cary about lift vp or worship the Sacrament of the Lords Sup. Supper is contrarie to the ordinance of Christ S. Doctrine and practise must go together otherwise we pull downe with one hand that wee build with the other As he that teacheth that an Idol is nothing in the world and yet sitteth at Table in an Idols Temple destroieth with his act that he built with his speech 1. Cor. 8. 4. 10. R. That the practise of our church concurreth not with her doctrine is a reproch laid very vniustly vpon a most religious nation should much vex your heart that euer you had such a thought of a Church most famous renowmed thorowout the world for the puritie of doctrine which shee doth professe and accordingly practise And therfore either make your words good or confesse your great ouerslip THE THIRD OBIEGTION S. IT is a monument of Idolatrie deuised by man of no necessarie vse in the seruice of God Therefore to be remoued Deut. 7. 25 26. 12. 3. 2. King 18. 4. Isa. 30. 32. 2. Cor. 6. 17. Iude 23. R. Be intreated I pray you to marke whither your affections not guided by discretion haue caried you At the first you said not that Kneeling at the Communion was an euill action but not the best nor after that how it was in it selfe euill but An apparance of euill But now forsooth it is a monument of Idolatrie which is euill indeed Thus one euill thought bringeth another Take heede of them in time else bring you to worse Besides this assertion is as voide of reason among men as it is of truth in religion For as to Kneele at the holy Communion is no Idolatrie nor so much as apparance thereof in sound Diuinitie so is Kneeling not in the predicament of substance but of Site And therefore no Monument by the rule of reason But be it a Momument is our kneeling a Monument of Idolatrie Kneeling at the Masse is grosse and palpable Idolatrie Is therefore kneeling also at the Communion a Monument of Idolatrie Last of al let Kneeling be of neuer so impious and detestable vse among Papists yet is the same gesture of good necessarie vse in our church For hereby as by the seemliest behauior for so religious a seruice we testifie the earnest and most zealous deuotion of our souls when we do either pray or praise God as we do both at the receiuing the sacrament So that were it a Monument of Idolatrie as it is nothing lesse deuised by man yet because it is of so good and necessarie vse in our seruice of God euen in your owne iudgement and conscience and that from these your words it is not to be remoued And
Ministers to the whole Church of England And if some Communicants do sit all the time of prayer and after fall downe on their knees when the bread and wine is offered them such Communicants would be taught told that as in this their Kneeling they do that which both the lawes of our Church doth require and also pleaseth God so their not Kneling all the time of praier is a most euident argument how they neither approch vnto the Supper of the Lord with such preparation as is requisite nor being come doe be haue themselues as they should For sure I am and you cannot denie if aduisedly you mark the order of our Communion booke that albeit the Minister is directed somtimes to Kneele sometimes to Stand and neuer to Sit yet the people are by the said booke to Sit neuer but alwayes to Kneele from the first to the last THE EIGHT OBIECTION S. IT is vrged being an humane inuention aboue the commandement of God R. Our Kneeling in the receiuing of the Lords Supper is not an inuention proceeding meerly from the wit inuention of man but as afore hath beene said is so from man as withall it is the inuention and institution of God Quaeritar saith master Caluin writing about Kneeling at solemne praiers and may as well be referred to Kneeling at the solemne receiuing of the supper of the Lord it is demanded whether it be a tradition of man which euery man may lawfully refuse or neglect Now marke his answere I say saith he that it is so of man as it is also of God It is of God in respect that it is a part of that comelinesse the care and keeping whereof is commanded vnto vs by the Apostle It is of man in regard that it specially betokeneth that which had in generalitie rather beene pointed to then declared So Caluin And this the Church both lawfully may and commendably doth vrge and call for at our hands S. It is vrged aboue the commandement of God Ergo Math. 15. 3 4 5. 6. R. How proue you the Antecedent S. I proue it thus The Minister is to bee suspended for giuing the bread and wine to a communicant not Kneeling but not for giuing them to a Communicant that neither can nor will examine himselfe before he eateth and drinketh at the Lords table Ergo. R. Your Antecedent is true in part and in part not so True it is that the Minister is to bee suspended for giuing the bread and wine to a Communicant that can and wil not kneele and his punishment is deserued For vnworthie is he to minister that refuseth to obserue the orders of that Church whereof he is a Minister Caluin himselfe was not onely suspended but also expulsed from the ministerie at Geneua and that for his stubborn refusing to administer the Lords Supper according to the order of that Church There is no Church vnder the Sunne but will haue the rites ceremonies there established to be inuiolably kept both of Minister and people Againe the Antecedent is vntrue For though Ministers bee not suspendable for giuing the Sacrament vnto many that wil not examine themselues afore hand why should they seeing neither Gods word nor mans law doth impose such a charge vpon any Minister namely to examin all Communicants who are to examine themselues yet some that will not themselues examine as notorious offenders Schismatikes the like they are not to admit vnto the holy Communion no more then they are to receiue the prophane Sitters and if they doe admit such they are to be inquired after and punished by the lawes of our Church Besides Ministers bee to admit neither ignorant ideots nor yong Infants or children that cannot examine themselues For if they do there is punishment by our lawes appointed for them as well as for those that allow the refractarie Sitters to participate at the holy table though the punishment be neither the same nor so soone inflicted S. You will say peraduenture that the breach of the peace of the Church is to be punished seuerely R. You know that where the offence is not small the punishment should not be light and where the disobedience is great the correction should not be small S. They breake not the peace of the Church which cleaue fast to Gods word in euerie thing with a meeke and quiet spirit R. You shall neuer be able to proue either your Sitting to be a cleaning fast to Gods word or our Kneeling to be a swaruing from the same But I haue shewen which mee thinks you should see how the same Kneeling is the lawful and laudable ordinance both of God and man euen of men of God or good men And therefore in mine opinion it can be no token either of meeke spirits highly to Sit when their brethren lowly do Kneele or of quiet minds obstinately to denie obedience to the orders and constitutions of a most renowmed and reformed Church S. The peace of the Church is more broken by transgressing a manifest and substantiall precept of God then by not obseruing a ceremonie whose lawfulnesse is questionable and therefore that should bee punished more then this R. You that will not be censured by the Church will and here doe censure the doings of a right Christian Church but from what spirit this doth proceede be your self iudge What manifest and substantiall precept of God there is which you say here is transgressed you haue not yet shewen and I would faine see And though you can name as you cannot any such commandement broken yet let me put you in minde how the violating euen of the morall and substantiall precepts of God haue sometimes and that by God himselfe in mans eies and afore the world with lesse rigor and seueritie beene punished then the contemptuous breach euen of ceremoniall ordinances For what I pray you was Adams eating the forbidden fruit the Bethshemites prying into the Ark of God Vzza his touching of the same Vzziah his offering of incense the mans gathering of stickes vpon the Sabbath day but violations or breaches of lawes not absolutely morall in themselues but either typical or ceremonial and yet what sinnes were euer so punished as some of them what more horrible in Gods eies then all of them In the new testament touching the Supper of the Lord which we haue now in hand the Apostle saith That whosoeuer shall eat this bread c. vnworthily shall be guiltie of the body blood of the Lord eateth and drinketh his own damnation c. procureth weaknes sicknes and bodily death Now who were they in that Church and at that time which did eate vnworthily and therefore were so chastised were they not such as transgressed and would not obey nor keepe the receiued orders of Gods people and despised his Church euen the publique place appointed for Gods worship Like vnto those that wil receiue Sitting when by order
established they should take the Communion Kneeling Wilfull open Schismatikes do more offend the church then either priuie heretiques which secretly vndermine the truth or close malefactors whatsoeuer their transgressions be and therefore deserue the sharper castigation Before Kneeling by authoritie was enioined it was lawfull for vs and all men to question about the lawfulnesse thereof but being once appointed now to resuse to bow sauoureth not of his spirit which said If any man be contentious we haue no such custome nor the Church of God And therefore he that shall say how that should be more punished then this being no Prince nor called to counsell passeth the limits both of discretion and modestie finding fault with that which he cannot iustly mislike and ought rather with a meeke and readie minde to performe then masterly to controll For what are you or I that wee should condemne the publique and allowed orders of our Church in matters indifferent and ceremoniall and whose lawfulnesse euen by your last wordes is questionable OBIECTION 9. S. IT is so doubtfull and disputable to say no more that a man can not haue faith in the doing of it Ergo. Rom. 14. 22 23. R. He that shall marke your words considerately will hardly thinke that you are of mind how it is a thing questionable doubtfull and disputable whether to Kneele in the receiuing the Supper of the Lord be lawfull or no. For you say expresly that a man for his Kneeling cannot haue faith and so in Kneeling sinneth which is the worst that can bee said thereof Besides you insinuate that hauing said your worst you could yet say more against the same which would bee knowen But whatsoeuer you either thinke or haue said or can say we would ye should know that we are of mind that our Gouernours do well haue Gods word for their warrant â—n commanding vs to Kneele and that we do not ill neither sinne in obeying their commandements For we are verely perswaded in our consciences that we please God in kneeling should sin did we Sit not Kneele as many do For Gods word is both for the approbation of all things making for order comelines and edification in the Church of which nature we are out of doubt and haue prooued our Kneeling is and against all disorders and vndecent gestures tending to the decay of godly deuotion in Christian people as the inreuerent I say not irreligious Sitting at the Lords table as at a common and prophane banquet seemeth to be and is Wherefore I do thus argue against you That for the doing whereof a man may haue faith is to be done But for his Kneeling in the receiuing the holy Supper a man may haue faith Therefore it is to be done or we are to Kneele in the receiuing the Supper of the Lord. And against your Sitting I doe thus reason and cut you with your owne knife That for the doing whereof no man among vs can haue faith is not to be done but for his Sitting in the receiuing the holy Supper of the Lord no man among vs can haue faith Therefore it is not to be done or vsed The proposition is your owne or rather S. Pauls The Assumption is iustifiable for you haue no warrant from Gods word nor mans law for Sitting as we haue for Kneeling yea by this your Sitting a triple fault is committed For first Sitting at the receiuing the Lords Supper is without ground of Scripture yea is flat against Gods word because it is against publique order vndecent and tendeth both to the nourishing of strife among brethren and engendreth confusion among vs all Next it is directly opposite to the publique ordinance of our Church And lastly it is very offensiue both to the whole State and to millions of Gods people who like well and allow of Kneeling and mislike of Sitting at the Supper of the Lord. S. They which mislike of Kneeling in the act of receiuing both in England and in other reformed Churches are neither few nor vnlearned nor vngodly R. Now reason you from examples which kind of reasoning is of no validitie Be it you haue ten thousand in this land and of them a thousand neither vnlearned nor vngodly Ministers yet are they but priuate men against an whole State One singular man bringing only the Scriptures of God for the maintenance of his opinion is of regard when all these are not without Gods word conflicting with a whole Church And as for Churches reformed in other places I know there be that like better of their owne Sitting or Standing according to the fashions of their seuerall countries yet cannot you name any one of them all that mislikes of our Kneeling S. Your argument from the authority of the Church is only probable not demonstratiue and so vnable to breed faith R. I haue proued the lawfulnes of our Kneeling by arguments more then probable drawne and deriued from the word of God and so most forceable to engender faith whereunto I will adde because examples do so pierce and preuaile with you the examples of D. Rainolds Sparkes M. Chaderton and Knewstubs who were not so wedded to their owne opinions and other mens examples at the first but they afterwards vpon better aduisement and conference with most godly and worthy men altered their minds and promised conformity euen to all things required and so to this our Kneeling whereof some of them haue left most famous and publique monuments both to their owne high praise and credit and the singular benefit of Gods people to the serious and conscionable perusall whereof and of the premises I doe verie friendly referre you S. God reueale the truth in this controuersie and grant it may bee embraced to his glorie and the peace of his Church Amen R. A good conclusion whereunto from my heart and soule I likewise do say Amen So bee it THE SECOND DIALOGVE about Kneeling in the very act of receiuing the holy Communion Betweene an humorous Schismatike and a setled Professor Confes. Sueuic Cap. 14. Ciuilibus legibus quae cum pietate non pugnant eò quisque Christianus paret pomptiùs quò fide Christi est imbutus pleniùs That is The more faith that any Christian is endued with the more obedient is he vnto all ciuill ordinances which be not contrary vnto godlinesse LONDON Printed by Henry Ballard dwelling on Adling-hill 1608. The contents of the second Dialogue Whether Kneeling at the Communion be an institution of man or no. Sectio 1. Whether Kneeling be vsed without all respect of reuerence vnto God in the Church of England Sect. 2. Whether Kneeling at the Communion be a wil-worshippe Sect. 3. Whether Christ his example in euery thing at the ministration of the Communion is necessary to be followed Sect. 4. Whether our Kneeling be Popish and Idolatrous Sect. 5. Whether Kneeling hindreth the sweete familiarity betweene Christ and his Church Sect. 6. Whether Christ sat of purpose Sect. 7.
Whether Christ prescribed a speciall gesture for the Communion Sect. 8. Whether the prayer at the deliuery of the bread and wine be iustifiable Sect. 9. Whether Kneeling at the Communion be a gesture indifferent Sect. 10. Whether Kneeling at the Communion as much is to be abhorred as the worshipping of Images Sect. 11. Whether Kneeling at the Communion be a shew of euill and the greatest scandall Sect. 12. Whether the Kings commandement to Kneele maketh Kneeling to be no sinne Sect. 13. ⧠THE SECOND DIAlogue about kneeling at the holy Communion BETWEENE AN HVMEROVS Schismaticke and a setled Professor Schis THE proposition which I hold and will maintaine is this namely that kneeling in the very act of taking eating and drinking the Sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion cannot be without sinne Pro. What heare I Cannot kneeling no not in the verie act I say not of eating and drinking but of taking eating and drinking the Sacramentall bread and wine and that not priuately but publiquely nor prophanely but in the holy Communion be without sin what vncouth what horrible what hellish assertion do I heare Had you said how many both men and women may and some doe sinne euen in kneeling at the Lords table and when they take eate and drinke the Sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion you had said that which by lamentable experience we find to be too true but that all persons whatsoeuer which receiue that holy Sacrament Kneeling doe sinne yea euen in kneeling cannot but sinne or that their said Kneeling cannot be without sinne who can so much as thinke this without great sinne who can speake it without offence who can heare it without horror and detestation From what Africke came this monster From what hell this error Name the brocher shew the Auctor If thou canst doe neither of them tell yet thy suggestions Schismatike which make thee to bee of this minde SECT 1. Whether Kneeling at the Communion be an institution of man and how Schis IT is to bee vnderstood that howsoeuer Kneeling may in itself considered be esteemed a naturall gesture of the bodie as Standing Sitting c yet in this case it is by institution of man For neither nature nor custom doth teach vs ordinarily to kneele when we eate and drinke neither doth the word require Kneeling in this case Pro. Indeed Nature teacheth vs whether we eat drinke or whatsoeuer we doe to doe all things decently and with good maners but prescribeth no certaine forme and maner in eating and drinking how we are to eat or drinke iudging all drinking and eating to be commendably which is ciuilly done And the God of Nature will haue all things in his church decently in order performed not setting down a maner how but leauing the determination of formes to the discretion of his people as deeming all things to bee commendably which are comely and orderly done in his Church As then whatsoeuer the maner is of our eating and drinking commonly in priuate houses and taking our corporall repast if it be ciuilly taken is by the direction of Nature her selfe euen so whatsoeuer the forme and maner of our taking eating and receiuing the Sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion is if it be orderly taken and decently done is from God and his word Albeit therefore neither Nature enioineth vs to Kneele no more then to Sit or Stand when we eate and drinke nor the word or holy Scripture to Kneele no more then to Stand or Sit when we receiue the Sacrament yet as our common eating and drinking according to the laudable customs of our country where we liue is from Nature though instituted by man or made vsuall by custome euen so our Kneeling in eating and drinking the sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion is from the word of God originally though instituted by man inasmuch as God is the fountaine of all decent orders in his Church as after God Nature is the author of all ciuilitie good maners among men in the world Thinke not then how Kneeling at the Communion is by Institution of man or meerely from man not required by the word For both man appointeth and God approueth and by authoritie from God man appointeth and by the ministerie of man God approueth our Kneeling And so our said Kneeling is not so much the institution of man as of God and required in his word So that in Kneeling though sometimes and some people may yet alwayes and all persons do not sinne yea all Communicants if otherwise they offend not doe serue and please God by kneeling SECT 2. Whether Kneeling be vsed without all respect of reuerence vnto God in the Church of England Schis IF it be by institution it must be either in respect of a more reuerend receiuing or not Pro. Of all reuerend maners of receiuing the holy Sacrament Kneeling is the most reuerend and so and none otherwise instituted and vsed by vs of the reformed Church in England Schis But if the most solemne signe of reuerence vsed in these parts of the world be without al respect of reuerence and that by institution of authority in so high a part of Gods seruice may not such Kneeling be iudged if not a grosse mocking of Christ as was the souldiers bowing of Knees before him yet a taking of the name of God in vain seeing all significations of honor in Gods seruice ought to be to the honor of his name an oath not religiously intended as in the nature thereof it ought to be to the houour of God is the taking of Gods name in vaine Pro. Is kneeling at the communion a signe a solemne yea the most solemne signe of reuerence vsed in these parts of the world by your owne confession and may not yea cannot that solemne that most solemne signe of reuerence at the receiuing of bread and wine at the Communion be expressed without sinne which is your proposition Who obseruing beleeuing these your words which are most true but will fall into a loathing of the said assertion But your said proposition is not more odious then your saying that the most solemne kind of reuerence vsed in these parts of the world is without all respect of reuerence and that by institution of authoritie is false and slanderous For neither do all Churches in these parts of the world either vse to kneele or kneele without all respect of reuerence by institution of authoritie neither if some doe kneele without such respect and that by institution of authoritie be all churches to be charged and blamed for this fault but least of all the Church of England where this signe this solemne this most solmne signe with all possible respect of reuerence is giuen to God and that by institution of authoritie Where therefore this signe of reuerence is without all respect of reuerence giuen and that by institution of authoritie in so high a part of Gods seruice
Communion but for that they were abused neither for their abuse were they quite banished out of the Church as you vntruly say but onely blamed and yet continued in the Church of God A fitter example could you not bring forth then this of Loue feasts For neuer did Christ to whose example in celebrating of his Supper you would precisely bind vs institute and minister the said Supper either after or before such a feast as did the Churches in the Apostles times and that commendably This sheweth how things of themselues indifferent and tending vnto edification may be added without sinne vnto the sacred Supper and being added through mans corruption abused may be reduced notwithstanding to their first and laudable institution continued in Gods church as were the Loue feasts Schis Nay hereby it is apparent that that forme of administration which differeth from the first institution is worthy no praise and therefore no acceptable seruice of God Pro. Not so apparent as you weene The Apostle blamed the Corinthians as I haue told you not for their Loue feasts a forme among them of administring the Lords Supper but for their abusing them to the dishonour of God and offence of the world Which feasts afore they were abused were well allowed counted both worthie of praise an acceptable seruice of God differing but not contrarie to his will Which may tell and teach you First how the Church is not alwayes and strictly bound to one and the same forme of administring the holy Supper Next that what Christ did and what he said and instituted is to be considered and that what hee instituted is alwayes and necessarily to bee done but not what he did For his actions serue for our instruction alwayes but not for our imitation euer his institutions bee iniunctions his deedes personall and circumstantiall his precepts substantiall his actions for a great part accessorie and arbitrarie his iniunctions euermore necessarie Hence blame we the Papists for denying the Cup vnto the common people and the Artotorites for adding Cheese to the Lords Supper contrarie to the institution of Christ but we blame neither the Corinthians and primitiue Church of old nor the reformed Churches in these dayes for swaruing from the forme of Christs ministring the Sacrament in certaine ceremoniall indifferent accidentall and circumstantiall points whom we should and would blame were their administring how differing soeuer from the forme of Christ his celebrating the holy Supper a seruice displeasing and not acceptable to God And here the wisdome of our Lord Sauiour sheweth it selfe most admirable who hauing prescribed and instituted what hee would haue done hath not prescribed yet the forme and manner how hee would haue the Sacraments administred enioyning generall things as Take Eate Drinke c. but leauing the speciall maner of taking and receiuing the bread and wine vnto the libertie and discretion of his elected spouse thinking that praise worthy and acceptable vnto his holinesse whatsoeuer in this matter is formally decently and to the edification of his church and children done and performed Schis If the Apostle would not tolerate an indifferent thing as was a Loue feast till then to continue so neere the Lords Supper when it was abused how would they allow the change of Sitting into Kneeling especially in these two considerations Pro. Saint Paul was not of your mind who cannot brooke but doe condemne whatsoeuer vnto Idolatrie or sinne hath beene abused Therefore did hee and his brethren the Apostles continue these Loue feasts whose reformation they sought after they were abused neuer counting them because they were abused by some persons to bee vtterlie and euer afterward to bee vnlawfull and for no vse in Gods Church Hence the Apostles Peter and Iude speake of Loue feasts in vse in their time without condemning them for their abuse and Tertullian reporteth how they were frequent in his dayes and yet euer abused by some ill disposed persons or other And therefore that the said Apostle would both lesse allow of and more condemne Kneeling which neuer was so abused in our Church as were the Loue feasts in the primitiue Church and especially at Corinth is verie vnprobable I may say vnpossible to be true But because you are of mind that for two considerations the Apostles would condemne them conceale not your reasons that they may bee considered of SECT 5. Whether our Kneeling be Popish and Idolatrous Schis FIrst the abuse of Loue feasts viz. superfluity was neuer so great and scandalous in the Apostles times as the abuse of Kneeling viz. Idolatrie was and is in the Synagogue of Rome Pro. It is well that you grant Loue feasts and Kneeling to be of one and the same nature and of themselues indifferent For you confesse they haue all beene abused and so implie that good vse was made both of Kneeling and of Loue feasts afore they were abused but neither could they bee vsed well at the first or abused afterward had they or either of them simplie beene ill and so vnlawfull That as Loue feasts so Kneeling at the receiuing the holy Communion and blessed Sacrament hath bin abused the whole world doth know and may not be denied Let it also be granted which is most true that the abuse of Loue feasts was neuer so great and scandalous in the Apostles times as the abuse of Kneeling was is in the Synagogue of Rome But what make you of all this May wee not therfore Kneele at any time or in any reformed Church when we receiue the Communion because there was and is such abuse of Kneeling in the Synagogue of Rome And if we in our Churches do Kneele is our offence greater then the abuse of Loue feasts or cannot that same thing be vsed without sinne or offence at one time and place which is abused in another or well vsed and to Gods glory by some persons which impiously and to the high dishonor of God is prophaned by others Kneeling in the verie act of receiuing I confesse of some hypocrites in our reformed Churches may be abused as were the Loue feasts in the Apostles dayes but so grosly generally and scandalously as were either the Loue feasts in the primitiue Church or is Kneeling in the Synagogue of Rome me thinks you should blush to say sure I am you shall neuer proue You say Loue feasts were by superfluitie I adde by sursetting also drunkennesse pride vain-glorie contempt of the poore Christians Kneeling also among the Papists vnto Idolatrie a most horrible sinne and superstition is abused but so many wayes in so open sort so impiously is Kneeling abused in no Church reformed Loue feasts by many and that openly were abused by bad Christians who at those Loue feasts were as blots aud spots but was not the fault of the whole Church Christian Kneeling at the Masse is the sinne of all Caco-catholiques yea and of their whole Church but if Kneeling among vs in or any other Church
is abused the blame is to be laid neither vpon the whole Church but vpon some particular professors neither is it an open and publique scandall at least not alwayes nor euery where but an hidden sinne of some fewe hypocrites Schis Loue feasts were either before or after the Supper wheras Kneeling is in the principall part of the holy Communion Pro. Whether these feasts of Loue were celebrated afore or after the holy Communion it is vncertaine and not materiall The most Diuines notwithstanding doe thinke that after but whether afore or after they went together the Loue feasts with the holy Sacrament the Sacrament not without the Loue feasts It is generally held that among the Iewes there was a yerely custom when they did eat their Paschal Lamb to adioine vnto that Sacrament a ceremoniall eating of bread and drinking of wine In imitation of these Iewes and Banquets the first Christians at the administration of the holy Sacrament made feasts called Agaps or banquets of charitie The Iewes for their feasting after the Passeouer had neither the president of Moses nor the precept of God nor the Christians any either president or commandement of Christ for the Loue feasts Those Suppers and feasts of the Iewes notwithstanding were so liked of Christ as he made of those Suppers the Sacrament of his bodie and blood And Christians in the Primitiue Church termed their Agapas their feasts of charitie the Supper of the Lord Sacra conuiuia sacra ecclesiastici coetus conuiuia yea the Supper of the Lord. Who obseruing this but must confesse that God doth not as you Schimatike doe condemne all Rites and Ceremonies about the Sacrament which himselfe hath not instituted and they therefore are much out of the way which condemne euerie thing instituted by man about the worship of God though neuer so orderly established and decent euen for none other cause but for that God hath not expressedly appointed the forme in his holy word Whence our kneeling is so condemned and that the more because it is to bee done in the principall part of the holy Communion But sir if Kneeling bee as it is and you haue truly confessed the most solemne signe of reuerence when I pray you is it better to shew this signe then at the receite of the Sacrament of our redemption by the bodie and blood of Christ signified by bread and wine and the most principall of all outward worship which we can performe vnto God Schis If the Apostle banished Loue feasts from the Lords Supper and brought the Church to the simplicitie of the first institution is it not a tempting sinne to retaine the Idolatrous Kneeling of Papists reiect the exemplarie Sitting of our master Christ Pro. Not too fast It is not granted that the Apostles Loue feasts either because they were of mans institution or by vngodly persons abused vnto sinne were banished Those feasts growing to abuse the Apostle seeketh to amend saith Caluin to correct saith Beza but neither Caluin nor Beza nor any other Diuine ancient or neotericall doth say that the Apostle for their abuse did either banish or abolish them But were they banished yet were they afterwards and soone called home againe from banishment and receiued into grace Antiquitie beareth witnesse of the vse euen the good vse of them in and after the Apostles dayes which afore had beene abused Whence learne we either not to banish things for their abuse but to amend them or if we banish to take them into fauour againe when they be reformed but neuer vtterly to condemne them as vnlawfull onely because they haue been abused In imitation therefore of the Apostles and other holy Fathers of the first best Churches by vsing such things well and namely Kneeling at the receit of the sacred bread and wine which had beene abused if you iudge vs to do il your sinne is great and the more if you suppose the reforming of the said Kneeling and applying it to good and holy vse to be a retaining of the Idolatrous Kneeling of the Papists and a tempting sinne And though we follow not the speciall gesture of our Sauiour and his Disciples in taking the sacramentall signes yet reiect we not his example as ill but like of ours as in our iudgement more meete and conuenient for the times and countrey wherein we do liue and reside When you do proue our Communion to bee a Masse I will confesse our said Kneeling to be Popish yea Idolatrie and so we in Kneeling to commit a tempting sinne which you know and I dare say you shall neuer doe Schis How can we imagine Christ to be honoured by Kneeling we kneeling in that Sacrament and in that part of the Sacrament which especially setteth forth our Communion with Christ and his Church and is therefore called the Communion Pro. I had almost gathered from your speech that baptisme is no Sacrament of our Communion with Christ and his Church but marking the word Especially I see that Baptisme is acknowledged to be a Sacrament thereof as well as the Lords Supper But I pray you is it a sinne yea atempting sinne for any to be baptized Kneeling When Iohn baptized in Iordan Philip at Samaria Peter at Cesarea Paul at Philippos these and the rest of the Apostles in other places did none which receiued the Sacrament Kneele Can you say they did not dare you affirme they might not without sinne Or in these dayes in no Church and place may no conuerted Iew Turke or Pagan renouncing his or their impieties and false worshippings embracing the Gospel and desirous to be incorporated and baptized into the same bodie with vs may not these I say nor any of these without sinne yea a tempting sinne receiue these fauours from God and his Church and be baptized Kneeling And if some that can may receiue that Sacrament Kneeling may none yet participate of the heauenly graces offered especially in the Lords Supper to all worthie Communicants Kneeling And if in the special Sacrament of our Communion they may yet may they not Kneele in that part of the Sacrament which especially setteth forth our Communion with Christ And if they so doe thereby tempt they and prouoke they God to plague them euen for their verie Kneeling though neuer so reuerently and with all possible Faith charitie and pietie done and performed O strange diuinitie No Sacrament yea nothing so placeth before the eyes of our soules either the wrath and iustice of God vpon man for sinne or his Philanthropie his tender incomprehensible loue towards makind in his Sonne Christ Iesus as the externall elements of bread wine consecrated at the holy Supper do nor doth any part of the same Supper so affect the minds of the truly zealous and Christian as the exhibiting before their eies and putting into their hands the pledges of Gods pacification through Christ the tokens of our atonement with God And therefore is no Sacrament so reuerently
a thing lawlesse without rule and sinners in Gods â—ies be as disordered and lawlesse men whom neither Gods word nor mans law can rule or make obedient Hence the Beniamites which defloured the Leuits wife and the Prophet Helies children are called the Sonnes or men of Belial Hence the Papistes abroad whose chiefest religon is mans tradition and Schismatikes at home the authors and abettors of confusion in the Church be Belials sonnes Christ hath no communion with Belial nor Christians with the sonnes of Belial either the idolatrous Papists or the lawlesse Schismatikes these hauing separated themselues from vs because of our orderly Kneeling and obedience wee hauing seuered our selues from the other for their manifest impieties Schis Come out and touch no vncleane thing are the wordes of the Apostle which either he wrote without warrant or we must sinne in Kneeling Pro. God bee thanked we haue fulfiled the Apostles words we are come out wee haue left Babylon and next we doe as little touch tast or see any idolatrous pollutions or haue communion with that which is vncleane in our Kneeling as you or any others in your owne opinion neuer so pure and reformed haue either in Sitting bowing or Standing by which sites of body idolatrie hath beene and is committed as well as by Kneeling They which onely and alwaies commit idolatrie bee not they which Kneele for then neuer should we Kneele but wee commit idolatrie and neuer should any commit idolatrie but such as Kneele both which to bee false our experience doth tell vs who find that both the most religious most deuoâ—t doe Kneele when they serue their God and the most idolatrous and superstitious the Papistes only excepted do neuer Kneele at their chiefest exercises of their deuotions Thinke therefore iudiciously of our Kneeling as it deserueth and neither condemne any men for Kneeling if they so do not idolatrouslie or superstitiouslie nor appooue them which Kneele if thereby they dishonour God Blame the Papists who by their Kneeling doe the greatest idolatrie that can bee but blame not vs which most sincerely thereby do serue God Christ not being more opposite to Belial than is the Popish masse to our Communion and the manner of administration of the same albeit both the Papists and we of the Church of England in receiuing they of their Masse we of the Communion in kneeling be like Schis Doth not God straightly forbid vs to serue him as idolaters doe their Gods Pro. You know or should not be ignorant how God had prescribed vnto his people the Israelites a certaine forme and manner how he would of them be worshipped whereunto whosoeuer should adde or any thing take or varie from the same hee was liable to Gods heauie wrath and displeasure The Israelites were faultie herein and therefore great and most grieuous were the punishments not onely threatned but inflicted also by God vpon the people of Israel for their disobedience But we Christians haue onely generall rules no speciall forme of seruice giuen vs by Christ as the Israelites had an assertion so true as some of you Sectaries haue a fancy that because God hath set downe none such in his word the Church therefore should be bound to none at all no not so much as to a forme of prayer and haue euen made praiers against ordinary and common praiers When God therefore hath left vs free blame vs not as Idolaters if differing from Papists in their Idolatrie wee be like vnto them in some indifferent ceremony or other and rather thinke though wee bee like them and they like vs in kneeling yet as they cannot be said to be good Christians and to serue God though they kneele so are not we to be counted Papists and to be Idolatrous though we kneele For by one and the same gesture both they doe worshippe their Idol and wee our Sauiour like in action most vnlike in affection neither they by Gods word iustified because they are like vs nor we condemned being in that ceremony like vnto them Schis These things considered can kneeling wherewith Papists doe honour their breaden God be honourable to Christ in his holy Sacrament Pro. Yea these things rightly considered euen kneeling wherewith the Papists do honor their breaden God may be to the honor of Christ in his holy Sacrament For by that gesture of body whereby they do worship their false God an idoll by the same do we worship the true God our Sauiour sitting at the right hand of the Father in the heauens Now let vs know at the length what the other consideration is why this kneeling is or should be so hatefull vnto God and men SECT 6. Whether Kneeling hindreth the sweet familiarity betweene Christ and his Church Schis SEcondly whereas the end of a Sacrament is to informe the outward man by sensible demonstration it pleaseth our M. Christ to vse such gesture as agreeably with bread and wine setteth out our Communion and spirituall familiarity with him and reioycing in him And therefore as he saith If any heare my voice and open the doore I will come in to him and sup with him and he with me so hee saith Many shall come from the East and West and shall sit with Abraham c. By which places it appeareth that as by Supper so by Sitting familiar reioycing or reioycing familiarity is expressed In which respect the Communion is called the Lords Supper and not a sacrifice and wee are said to bee partakers of the Lords table and not of an Altar And therefore not Kneeling but Sitting is for receiuing Pro. The end of all Sacraments is to informe not the outward onely but the inward man also by sensible demonstrations and therefore bee they called Gods visible word and seene engendring and confirming Faith and edifying the Soule as well as the Word audible and heard And as the word heard and beleeued diuersly doeth affect the soule and to diuers blessed and good purposes so doth the visible word the sacraments especially of the body and blood of Christ. For as Circumcision was a Seale of the righteousnes of Faith that is a testimonie confirming the Faith of Abraham so to euery one which worthily doth partake of the bodie and blood of Christ his verie receauing is a sealing to his faith that of Christ the body was giuen and the blood shed for his sinnes Next it teacheth them how the Sonne of God tooke on him the nature of man that by the oblation of his body and blood he might take away the sinnes of the world Besides the memorie of that sacrifice propitiatorie is made perpetual and thankes ascribed from time to time at the participating of those misteries vnto the blessed dutie By communicating at this holy Sacrament we learne moreouer and do beleeue that as the benefits of Christ are ours and doe appertaine vnto vs in so much as neither the members to the bodie nor the branches to
the vine are more inseparably conioyned than we to him he communicating vnto vs his vigor and virtue Furthermore wee testifie and make it knowne to the world how we are members of that Church which professeth and acknowledgeth how the Sonne of God by the Sacrifice of his humane bodie hath pacified God for the sinnes of man It admonisheth vs in like sort of the mutuall loue and communion which is and ought to be betweene the members of so sacred and sanctified a body Many other causes and reasons may be alleadged why this Sacrament was instituted at the first and is frequented still of Gods people whereof though the setting out of our Communion and spirituall familiaritie with him and reioycing in him be one yet it is not the onely end but many being besides many gestures in diuers respects and not one onely is required for the more seemely receauing the same externallie Againe there being many causes and ends of our receauing the holy Supper one and the same site of body neither doth remember vs nor can present and represent all those ends vnto vs and others And therefore as sitting may note our communion and familiarity so kneeling our thankfulnes vnto God But if this spirituall Communion and comfort onely be thereby signified as nothing is more vntrue yet is the same expressed by the other Sacrament of Baptisme as well as by this and represented as well by water consisting of many drops as either of wine effected of many grapes or of bread made of many graines Which Baptisme yet is neither ministred nor vrged so to be by Sitting as the Supper is Neither is our corporall foode alwaies and euery where to the greatest comfort and token of sweetest familiarity receiued Sitting but sundry writers haue their seuerall fashions in their friendly and comfortable refreshings some taking the same one way some another not all Sitting especially in the Easterne parts of the world The antient Fathers some of them called this sacrament as the Lords Supper so a Sacrifice and that which the bread and wine were set vpon as the Lords Table so an Altar Whereof saith reuerent and most learned Zanchie although that Altars serue rather and be more meete for the offering then for the ministration of the Supper yet seeing neither Christ nor his Apostles either prohibited Altars or commended vnto vs the vse of wooden tables therefore is this also of altars to bee numbred among things indifferent and free for all and euery man to vse tables either of wood or stone at his discretion prouided that all superstition be remooued For what is an Altar saieth that holy and peaceable man what is an altar but a table made of stones about which would not I contend saith hee if so be otherwise there is a consent in the true doctrine and worship of God All this hath Zanchie which we say of Kneeling and the like And would to God you would so thinke of our Kneeing and others Altars and of all things else in good vse in reformed Churches that be indifferent Then would then could you neuer say that not Kneeling and Sitting is for receiuing It had bin too much for you to haue said how not kneeling but auerring that Sitting is for receiuing as if none other gesture were for the commodious and meete receiuing thereof but Sitting is very bad The first admonitioners which so disliked Kneeling at the Communion neuer vrged their Sitting as a thing necessary as you doe saying not Kneeling but Sitting is for receiuing For say they wee make not Sitting a thing of necessity belonging to the Sacrament neither affirme wee that it may not be receiued otherwise Therefore better iudge they of these than you doe but they best of all who take them as they are things of themselues indifferent and so except authority determine otherwise like to be deemed and that as good Communion and society they haue with Christ and his Church hauing on them the wedding garment of Faith which receiue Kneeling as they which Sit so as no man for the very act of kneeling no more then of Sitting sinneth Schis We read not of any gesture of body prescribed or obserued in Circumcision and Baptisme as in the Passeouer and Supper Pro. Or obserued Had you not added these wordes I should haue thought that by your reading you had found how thereis a forme of gesture prescribed vnto Christians at their taking the holy Communion And though I shreudly coniecture you are of that minde yet being not willing to take you at the worst let vs know the reason why a gesture was obserued though not prescribed at the holy Supper which was neither prescribed nor obserued at Baptisme and Circumcision Schis Because there needeth no naturall regard to be had of any certaine gesture in the two former Sacraments so the fore-skin were cut off and water be vsed but in the other two a gesture answerable to the action is requisite Pro. It is requisit and necessary that we take and eate bread and wine at the supper of the Lord as it was requisite that the fore-skin should be cut off at Circumcision and water vsed and none other liquor at Baptisme but that a certaine gesture was either obserued or requisit at the Communion this reason sheweth not Schis God prescribed to his people when they were to flie out of Egypt the gesture of loynes girded and staues in their hands because the eating then of the Passeouer was in hast But the gesture being but for that time as may appeare by the omission thereof when the obseruation of the Passeouer was established our Master Christ who came not to breake but fulfill the Law and knew what was fittest to be done did eate the Passeouer Sitting a gesture more answerable to eating in peace than the former vsed in Egypt Pro. Because God prescribed to the Iewes a forme of taking and eating the Passeouer hath hee therefore prescribed a forme to Christians of taking and receiuing the Lords Supper The one you manifest the other I would see prooued But had our God set downe as he hath not the manner how Christians should receaue the Supper as hee ordained how the Passeouer should bee taken and eaten of the Iewes yet because you heere confesse that this forme of eating the Passeouer in processe of time was altered the Iewes now eating the same Sacrament for substance but after a new manner sitting in Christs time for so you say standing afore and yet without sinne why may not wee Christians vpon as good reasons retaining the substance change the manner after which the holy Supper was ministred and receiued in the daies of Christ Before Christ his time there were additions vnto you heard afore in Christ his time there were alterations of the manner of taking the Passe-ouer your selfe do say yet all well liked and allowed of the Lord. Had the Iewes more libertie to adde formes euen of
admimistring the Sacraments then Christians haue Or be Christians in more bondage this way and restrained than the Iewes And might the Iewes vpon good considerations doe these things and may not Christians without sinne doe as they did Wee take therefore what you acknowledge though wee will not acknowledge it to be true namely that the manner of taking and receauing the Passe-ouer was altered the Iewes taking it at the first standing in processe of time sitting What gather you thereof Schis Hereby kneeling is conuinced as being a gesture altogether vnanswereable to eating Pro. Whereof is Kneeling conuinced Shew you haue not yet declared Or what maketh the Iewes sitting at the last or standing at the first to our Kneeling at the Communion Kneeling differeth from Sitting Standing Walking and the like but answereth to eating and drinking well enough For wee may eate to our mutual comfort if the common guise were not otherwise as well Kneeling as Sitting Standing or any other way which you cannot truly deny If ciuilly we may so doe at our common refreshings why not much more Ecclesiasticallie and sacramentallie at the Supper of the Lord Schis Because such Kneeling it darkeneth the counsell of God and being a signe of the greatest submission obscureth the reioycing familiaritie which the Lords Supper signifieth and sealeth Pro. Kneeling at the Communion darkeneth say you the counsell of God and obscureth the Reioycing familiaritie which the Lords Supper signifieth and sealeth For the ratifying of these your assertions you quote Scripture and bring a reason The places of Scripture which you quote be two the former out of Iob the latter from S. Paul Out of the booke of Iob the place is this Who is this that darkeneth the counsell by words without knowledge alledged onely for the phrase sake but concerneth the point in controuersie not a whit S. Pauls words bee these After the same manner also hee tooke the cuppe when he had supped saying this cuppe is the new Testament in my blood This doe as oft as you shall drinke it in remembrance of mee For as often as yee shal eat this bread and drinke this cup yee shew the Lords death till he come Now what is this also against our Kneeling They which worthily participate of the bread and wine though they Kneele doe as comfortably and familiarly Communicate in the blessings of God as they which in any other sort receiue the Sacraments Your reason that it obscureth the reioycing familiaritie which the Lords Supper signifieth and sealeth because it is a signe of the greatest submission is so farre from obscuring that it furthereth the same reioycing familiarity nothing more For who can receiue either to Gods glory more notably or to their owne soules ioy more comfortably then they which with the greatest signe of submission and that vnto the diuine Maiestie repaire vnto the holy Supper Afore you said and truely how kneeling was a signe of the greatest reuerence here you say It is the greatest signe of submission These are no reasons to driue vs from it but very forcible motiues to make vs with cheerefulnes and alacrity to continue our Kneeling Besides you argue me thinkes but from a particular as though spirituall familiaritie only and not other things besides and namely and especially a gratefull remembrance and thankefull acknowledgement of all Gods mercies and fauours which is best expressed by Kneeling were to be in our thoughts When there be many causes inducing vs to receiue the Sacrament if we chuse that gesture we aboue all may testifie our true humiliation and thankefulnesse vnto God rather then our reioycing familiaritie one with another blame vs not And yet is this corporall submission and submissiue thankefulnes at no time without much spiritituall ioy and it may be more encreaseth godly ioy in them which Kneele and in them too before whom they Kneele then your acknowledged lesse reuerent Sitting as at a common feast Schis Doewe not condemne the Papists for ministring the Communion in one kind because such an administration is against Christ his example and doeth not liuely demonstrate the Lords death Pro. The condemnation of the Papists is iust for their such ministring And therefore the Scripture which you point vnto serueth verie aptlie to displaie their impietie which swarue from Christ his institution by ministring the Communion in one kinde but not against vs for Kneeling And their blame is the iuster and the more not so much because they swarue by their said ministring from his example which in some cases as afore hath beene showne is lawfull to be done as for that verie disobediently they transgresse the manifest Commandement of God which hath enioined the said Sacrament to be administred in both kindes Schis Heare a caueat is to be giuen that none take occasion by this discourse of mine to iustifie the childish pedagogy of signifying ceremonies deuised by man seeing Sitting was vsed by Christ the signification thereof is found in Scripture And therefore that childish pedagogie is not iustified by that worthy seruant of Christ M. Cartwright his iudgement viz. that Sitting doth signifie our rest in Christ Iesus Pro. Those children which allow and like of significant ceremonies may bee your Fathers in sound Diuinitie How and by whom such ceremonies are iustified it is needlesse to set downe but that they are iustified by most godlie and learned men their iudgement touching some ceremonies vsed euen at the Communion beare witnesse Greete yee one another with an holy kisse saith Saint Paul Erat elegans admonitio in osculo There was an elegant admonition in the kisse Nam coiunctionem intimam declarabat for it signified a most inward coniunction Also not onely a consent sed communionem sanctorum but the communion of Saints which they professed in doctrine and sacred ceremonies saith Arctius And of the same kisse Nec est dubitandum saith Peter Martyr it is not to bee doubted how in the primitiue Church Christians gaue one another the mutuall kisse of peace and consent before they went vnto the holy communion by which token their purpose was to admonish themselues of the communion of Saints celebrated in the mysteries The marginall annotation from Geneua vpon these words of the Apostle is How the Christians did so kisse in token of mutuall loue which thing was obserued in the primitiue Church when the Lords Supper was ministred Marke these things aduisedlie and you shall see First that to the administration of the Supper ceremonies as kissing more then euer Christ that wee know practised sure I am then hee euer prescribed were added Secondly how the said ceremonies were very elegant and significant And lastly that the said addition and ceremonies no not for their mysticall signification were neuer deemed either vnlawfull or childish as you childishlie doe call them but very highlie commended both by the Apostle and worthy interpretors in the Church of Christ. But to proceede still in the sacred Supper
words contrary to his mind Schis For hee did first blesse or pray and after gaue the Elements in a Sacramentall forme of words without any addition saying Take eate c. which order of administration and forme of words Matthew Marke Luke and Paul doe so constantly precisely and sincerely relate that any may perceiue the meaning of the Spirit to bee That the Sacramentall forme of words ought to be obserued without any addition and the rather because Paul beginneth his relation thus I haue receiued of the Lord that which I haue also deliuered c. Pro. We stand against the Papists wee stand likewise against you Schismatikes that in the ministration of the holy Supper we keepe vs most precisely to the institution of Christ neither shall you nor they euer proue that wee swarue therefrom There be actions to be done of Pastors after the example of Christ there be actions of the people after the example of the Disciples there be things necessary there be accessory there be substantiall and vnmutable there be accidentall and changeable After the example of Christ Pastors are to blesse the bread and wine by calling on the Name of God and opening the institution with prayers and to breake the bread which is to be eaten and the cuppe which is to bee drunke and to deliuer both the bread and wine into the peoples hands with thankesgiuing On the other side it is the part of the flocke to examine themselues 1. To trie both their knowledge as also their faith and repentance to declare the Lords death that is by a true faith to assent vnto his word and institution last of all to eate the bread taken from the ministers hand and to drink the wine with thanksgiuing This was Pauls and the Apostle liturgie saieth Beza and is it not the liturgie of our Church at the administration of the Communion The taking of bread is necessary we take it thankesgiuing that is the sacrifice Eucharisticall is necessarie wee are thankefull the breaking of bread is necessary wee breake it the distribution of bread and wine is necessary we distribute them and that it be giuen only to the Disciples of Christ it is necessary we giue the bread and wine vnto none but Christians For all these things pertaine vnto the substance of the Supper saith Zanchie Now what of these necessary things either want we or doe we not in our Church If any thing we adde it is but for the better setting foth of the Sacrament and stirring vp of good affections which may be done very well without offence to God after the example of Gods people Iewes and Christians as afore more than once hath beene declared Hence Master Caluin so much saith hee as concerneth the outward forme of doing or ministring the Sacrament whether the faithfull receiue it viz. the bread in their hand or not whether they diuide it or euery one eate that which is giuen him whether they put the cup in the hand of the Deacon or deliuer it to the next whether the bread bee leauened or vnleauened whether the wine bee red or whit I might adde whether wee sit or kneele whether our payers and thankesgiuings bee long or short according to the times and occasions whether we vse prayers or no at the deliuerie and receiuing the elements it maketh no matter These things bee indifferent saith Caluin and left at the the libertie of the Church Whereas therefore you say that the very Sacramentall forme of wordes ought preciselie to bee obserued without any addition I say not to the sense and substance of matter but to the very words as if keeping vs to the same sense wee vse other words or more words or in another forme though to the same holy end and purpose were vnlawfull and an adding vnto Christ his institution and so a sinne liable to the heauie curse of God is doctrine strange hithereto not witnessed by the Churches of God Schis It may seeme to bee against religion and reason that to a Sacramentall forme of speech wherein the minister should only supplie the person of Christ there should be added a Prayer as in the name of the Church This confusion is fitter for Babylon than for Sion Pro. That Christ said Take eate this is my Body the Scripture doth manifest but either that Christ vsed no more words tending to prayer thankesgiuing exhortation or instruction or tied his ministers to those verie and onely wordes no scripture doth shew no writter saith but your selfe neither doth it seeme that any sound religion and little reason is in him that so saith being fitter to come from one of the brattes of Babylon than from any childe of Sion Schis Why is not a short prayer after other going before as well ioyned to the Sacramentall forme of Baptisme viz. N. I. baptize thee in the name of the Father c. Pro. The forme of Baptisme is but short the prayers and other good speeches complementing the same both going before and following after set downe in the wisedome of the Church without any speciall commandement of God are neither few nor confused and hitherto vnreprooued for ought I could euer yet heare which may teach you not cynicallie to barke against formes and fashions of administring Gods Sacraments when the matter vttered and vsed is good godly and iustifiable Schis If then this addition of prayer to the sacramentall forme of words bee not of faith how can wee with faith and a good conscience confirme or allow the same with our kneeling Pro. But if this addition to the sacramentall forme of words bee no addition to the substance of the sacrament but onely in the Churches discretion added for the greater glorie of God and comfort of the receiuers then hath it Gods words for the warrant thereof and may be well vttered and reuerently heard and assented vnto euen on our bended knees And so if there be no fault in our kneeling but because of those praiers Kneeling cannot bee faultie because the praiers be iustified SECT 10. Whether Kneeling at the Communion be a gesture indifferent Schis LAstly for iustifying of Kneeling it is affirmed that it is indifferent whether wee Sit Stand or Kneele seeing Christ did Sit when he did eate the Passeouer whereas God commanded the children of Israel in Egypt to eate the Passeouer Standing and some reformed Churches receiue Standing Therefore the King may appoint kneeling as the most reuerend gesture and best beseeming so holy an action Pro. We deeme kneeling to be a corporall site of it selfe indifferent not because Christ did sit when hee should haue stood eating the Passeouer For hee did Stand according to the first institution and not Sitte but beecause it is of the nature euen of Sitting and Standing which I thinke your selfe will not denie to be sites indifferent Besides your selfe haue acknowledged that Kneeling hath beene abused as were the Loue Feasts and therefore might afore bee well vsed as
things indifferent may Againe you haue lately giuen vs to note how kneeling of it selfe is not euill and so to be taken and counted but because it is vsed at certaine prayers which in your conceit are euill at least not iustifiable Therefore indifferent Lastly remember you not how you said of Kneeling that it is the most solemne signe of reuerence and a signe of the greatest submission Therefore not simply euill and to be condemned Nay when you say this of Kneeling why may not the King appoint the most solemne signe of reuerence the signe of the greatest submission or as you now say whether in earnest or sport I waigh not the most reuerend gesture for so is it and best beseeming so holy an action for the Lords Supper Schis For answere whereunto howsoeuer that which is alreadie said may suffice yet it may be further considered that though it be admitted that it is indifferent to Sitte or to Stand yet doth it not follow that Kneeling is indifferent Pro. Doe you but admitte Sitting and Standing to bee indifferent are they so but by way of Concession And though you grant Standing and Sitting to bee so yet doeth it not follow that Kneeling is of the same nature indifferent what reason haue you that it is not Schis For Sitting is the example and Standing is a gesture sometimes vsed in extraordinary eating and in the obiection it is said to be prescribed at a Sacramentall Feast Pro. Leaning and lying may shew vs how Christ ministred his Supper Sitting is none example For hee sat not if Beza if Vilerius if the vulgar Geneua annotation afore cited say true And if because standing in some Churches is prescribed at the sacramentall feast it is to be esteemed indifferent then is kneeling so to be deemed because the most and best reformed Churches appoint kneeling to be the seemliest gesture to be vsed at the sacrament What haue you more to say Schis Againe it doth not follow that because Christ vsed a gesture fitter for eating in his time in stead of a gesture prescribed vpon occasion it is therefore lawfull to vse a gesture nothing answerable to eating and that taken out of the synagogue of Antichrist as though the word of God came out of it or to it onely instead of a gesture most answerable to eating and purposely vsed by Christ at the institution of the Sacrament Pro. Will you not leaue charging of Christ with violating and breaking of Gods ordinance by vsing a gesture not fitter for eating in his time refusing a gesture prescribed vpon occasion in Gods eyes fittest for the Iewish Church Which thing though our Sauiour neither might nor would doe yet is it free for vs Christians and all Churches to vse such gestures at the Communion as are fittest for the daies and countries wherein and where wee liue England and many other Churches purged from the superstition of Poperie haue made choice of Kneeling a site though not answerable to our common eating neither is it necessarie it should be yet seemliest in our eies for our Eucharisticall Ecclesiasticall heauenlie and spirituall repast with Christ and his members Which Site or gesture though Antichrist abuse and Christ that wee read vsed not yet is it not therefore vnlawfull except it can bee shewne that either Christ did forbed it or commaund another or that Christians eithermay not at all or cannot vse that well which in the synagogue of Antichrist hath beene abused Schism So that notwithstanding all that is said for Kneeling his Maiestie vpon whom the burthen as of this gesture so of other ceremonies is laide may remember that Hezekiah appointed Leuites in the house of the Lord with Cymbals c. according to the commaundement of Dauid and Gad the Kinges Seer and Nathan the Prophet for the commandement was by the hand of the Lord and by the hand of his Prophets Pro. Whatsoeuer you haue said yet haue you not hitherto prooued the Kneeling in question to be vnlawfull and therefore cannot conclude the same to bee not indifferent nor to bee enioyned by our King As for his Maiestie like a worthie Hezekiah hee hath appointed Leuites in the houses of the Lord who doe performe their dueties together both at publique prayer hearing of Gods word ministring and communicating in the Sacraments according to the commaundement of blessed Elizabeth and the aduice of her Seers the Prelates and Clergie of the Realme and all correspondent vnto the reuealed will and Counsell of God Sch. Withal his highnes is to consider if kneeling were the most conuenient gesture best beseeming the holy comunion our Lord and Master would not haue Sitten downe of purpose at his last supper Pro. Your selfe haue acknowledged this Kneeling to be the most solemne signe of reuerence which what it doeth differ from the most reuerend gesture hee is sharpe sighted that can discerne and so best beseeming the holy Communion in our iudgement and country Howsoeuer our Lord and Master ministred this his Supper he ministred the same in most decent orderly and reuerend manner yet not binding vs to his example as knowing that is comely in one Country which is not so in another and meete for the time wherein hee liued and instituted the Sacrament which though lawfull is not so conuenient for after times and all places where his Church or part thereof should reside When Christ therefore in these things hath left vs free let no man bring vs into a new bondage Schis And let his Maiesty remember and consider that Ahaz was deceiued in deeming the Altar at Damascus more honourable for Gods seruice then the Altar of Lord. Pro. When you prooue that God hath appointed the site of Sitting to bee the onely gesture for the receiuing of the Communion in his Church as Altars were prescribed by God for his worshippe at Ierusalem and that the site of Kneeling at the said Communion is as vnlawfull as were the Altars at Ierusalem made after the fashion of the Altar at Damascus and lastly that wee in the Church of England commit Idolatrie by our Kneeling as did the Iewes vpon their new made Altars then let both King Iames bee taken for an Ahaz and his loyall and obedient Subiects for Idolaters in the space you are to bee taken for an egregious deprauer both of his sacred Maiestie and of the Church of God vnder his Empire and Gouernement SECT 11. Whether Kneeling at the Communion as much is to be abhorred as the worshipping of Images Schis I Haue said that which may be sufficient to a man reasonable and not contentious against the institution of Kneeling for supposed reuerence in regard of God Pro. You haue said a great deale more then enough to the same purpose but no whit for the satisfaction of any indifferent and reasonable man studious of the Churches quiet and desirous of the truth Schis It remaineth that somewhat be said against the institution of kneeling for reuerence in regard
of bread and wine which neede not be much Pro. Whatsoeuer you shall say it is but too much in a needelesse contention You haue beene told that wee Kneele not neither bee to Kneele in regard of bread and wine Schis Verily no sound Protestant of any knowledge will affirme it but rather presently consider that if kneeling be instituted for reuerence in regard of bread and wine it must be either because they represent the body and blood of Christ though remaining bread and wine touching their substance And then for like reason we may worship the crucifixe and image of God as the Papistes doe Pro. True Schis Or this reuerence is done to bread and wine because Christ is reallie bodily and locally though inuisiblie present in them either by transubstantiation according to the mind of the Papists or of consubstantiation according to the heresie of the Lutherans Pro. The Church of England and members of the same haue in equall detestation both of the Transubstantion of the Papists and the Consubstantiation of the Lutherans Schis Then it must needs follow that if wee abiure these heresies of Papists and Lutherans we must also abhor idolatrous and superstitious Kneeling their daughter and Nurse Pro. Wee abhorre idolatrous and superstitious kneeling from our hearts but not kneeling Our kneeling is neither superstitious nor idolatrous Schis We neuer heard of kneeling before transubstantiation was hatched in the sygnagoue of Antichrist so that immediatly after Pope Innocent decreed transubstantiation Pope Honorius decreed kneeling Therefore if Harding doth graunt that it is not well to kneele but in regard of a real and bodilie presence a sound Protestant should infer But I detest your reall presence Therefore Iabhorre your idolatrous kneeling Pro. We are to regard not so much who ordained kneeling at the first or when it was established and why as who commands it now and the vse thereof which we take to be verie good profitable and necessarie What though Harding doth say that wee doe not well to kneele but in regard of a reall and bodilie presence doe wee therefore ill which kneele hauing no such regard And though you tell vs a thousand times wee doe ill in kneeling because the Papists in kneeling doe adore the the bread and wine doe wee therefore ill which abhorre the Papists both doctrine and adoration Therefore whereas Harding doth grant that it is not well to kneele but in regard of a real and bodily presence and yee Schismatikes doe say and maintaine that wee doe ill to kneele not because wee doe but for that the Papists in regard of a certaine perswasion they haue of a bodily and real presence doe adore Bread and wine wee hold both them and you to bee much out of the way them for condemning our kneeling because it is not in adoration of bread and wine you for condemning our said Kneeling which is without all regard of such adoration SECT 12. Whether kneeling at the holy Communion bee a shew of euill and the greatest scandall Schis WE are to abhorre kneeling Pro. What all kneeling Schis I meane kneeling at the Lords Supper as in my proposition is expressed Pro. Why so For hitherto haue you giuen no sufficient and satisfying reason why wee should abhorre it Schis Because we abhorre the heresies of worshipping of Images Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation Pro. Though the heresies of worshipping Images Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation be detestable yet is not our Kneeling to be abhorred vnlesse you can proue vs guilty of those heresies or the like which we abhorre no men more Our gesture of Kneeling cannot be ill when our doctrine is good as the same gesture could not be good if our doctrine were vnsound and sauor of those heresies which you cannot truely say it doth You haue afore beene told that the gesture of it selfe is neither good nor euill but to bee esteemed according to the doctrine which they professe and hold that vse it a site as we vse it in the Church of England verie comely and commendable a gesture as Papists abuse it most horrable Schis Not in respect of those heresies onely but also because it is the shew of the greatest euils that euer were it is to be abhorred Pro. Those euils would be shewen Schis It carieth a shew first of Idolatrie in worshipping a God made of a piece of bread Pro. Artolatrie is the euill of the Romish Church there is neither that euill nor a shew thereof among vs who acknowledge no breaden God much lesse giue any shew of adoration vnto bread and wine The shew of such euils wee condemne euen as the euill it selfe wee abhorre You haue bin answered againe and againe that our adoration in Kneeling is to our God in heauen not to his creatures on earth nor to Christ in them or transubstantiated into them which because wee do not the Papists afore mentioned viz. Harding would not haue vs to Kneele because we adore not what they doe which did you conscionably remember would remoue this vncharitable suspition out of your head that our Kneeling carrieth a shew of Artolatrie grosse Idolatry This therefore is but an vniust surmize of yours What is the next euill euen the great euill that it beareth a shew of S. Euen our communion with Antichrist rather than with Christ. P. To communicate with Antichrist is not reuerently and religiously to kneele at the holy Communion but to communicate in the doctrine and superstitious worship professed and vsed in the Church of Rome Herein wee communicate not with the Papists nor they with vs. They say that our Protestants are Amalakites and Heretikes our doctrine heresie and that they which so cal it and that in the worst part that can be and in the worst sence that euer was doth rightly and iustly and that we are Paganis Turcis deteriores worser then Turkes and Pagans We said of them that their religion is rebellion their faith is faction their doctrine false and erronious their seruing of God superstitious and idolatrous all their doctrine and worship blasphemous and derogatorie in an high degree to the glory of God Hence haue they separated themselues from vs and our Churches by open recusancie and wee haue departed from them and their offices which they call Apostacie and vs Schismatickes for so doing These things were they duly considered as they ought seriously me thinkes it should be far from the thought of any man professing the same doctrine with vs and detesting the religion of the synagogue of Rome to imagine that we in kneeling doe communicate with that whorish Church who are not so seuered in doctrine and worship as for our worshipping of God and doctrine without all hope of atonement or reconciliation separated in body but in affections much more This notwithstanding were their doctrine and worship as good as the signes of their deuotion commendable whom we do communicate withall in a dumbe ceremony and in different if to
kneele at our chiefest prayers and praisings of God bee a communicating with the Church of Rome wee would also most willingly communicate withall in their worship and doctrine And we wish and pray that as we conuert some of their vsages to God his glory so they may be conuerted vnto the same doctrine and worship among vs that with our heart and forme aswell of doctrine and worship as ceremonies wee may glorifie God together in this world In the meane while wee shall and as much doe dislike your sitting who are like vs in the maine points of doctrine as we like of their kneeling in it one nature considered who are most vnlike vs in doctrine and the true worship of God For we hold it better to come neere the superstitious Papists who make showes of great deuotion at Kneeling than to prophane persons in sitting at the communion a signe of no deuotion or of very smal especially in these dayes wherein wee are to feare more the ouerflowing of Atheisme then th' encrease of superstitiō When wee haue no communion with Antichrist in Idolatrie and false doctrine why should you refuse to cōmunicate with vs Christians because of our kneeling S. It was the greatest scandal that euer was or can be P. Kneeling no not at the communion is not any scandall in our Church sitting is And if Kneeling bee it is a scandall taken not giuen but your sitting is a scandall both giuen and taken and therefore the greatest scandall whereas the other is none at all But seeing you haue sayd it show why kneeling is the greatest scandall that euer was or can be S. It is so in regard of those euils it doth occasionally teach or confirme P. If our doctrine as it doth not teacheth no such euils and heresies Kneeling of it selfe doth not so much as occasionably teach or confirme them But our doctrine is most pure and sound no Papist can shew no Schismatick will say no aduersary what-so-euer shall euer proue the contrary You are answered for this point haue you no other thing to say why our Kneeling is so scandalous yea the greatest scandall that euer was or can be S. Yes it is so also in regard of multitudes indeed the most part of the people either not sufficiently instructed in the right vnderstanding and vse of the Sacraments and therefore carried with a blind zeale learned by tradition or corrupted more or lesse with the leauen of Popery P. We are sure and all the world will witnesse that Puritas doctrinae viget in Anglia true religion flourisheth in England the people at no time was euer so diligently and soundly taught both what to beleeue how to liue as they are at this day and for these many yeeres together haue beene in our Church If multitudes not-with-standing remaine yet blind and ignorant it is the fault either of their owne dulnesse that cannot or negligence that will not or sinnes that they shall not profit by the word The care of their gouernors hath beene great and singular that they might grow vp and increase in all godly knowledge and affections especially in the Sacrament Therefore if any or many either be not sufficiently instructed in the right vnderstanding and vse of the Sacraments or be corrupted more or lesse with the leauen of Popery what is all this to the church of England which both desireth and ordereth so farre as in her is that all may be instructed that sufficiently in the right vnderstanding and vse of the Sacraments and also both teacheth the doctrine of Christ very substantially and administreth the Sacraments most sincerely Lay not the faults and corruptions of the multitude vpon the Church of England and her lawes S. The vulgar people for a great part in regarde of their weakenesse are endangered by this gesture either groslie to commit the idolatry of Papists or to haue a superstitious estimation of the outward elements P. The vulgar people would neuer haue those thoughts did not either our aduersaries the Papists poison them with Popish conceits cleane contrary to the purport meaning of the church of England or you Schismatikes enforme them that we either commit Idolatry or make show that we so do by our Kneeling but all of you most falsly and slanderously The gesture as it is appointed doth endanger them no whit but it is partly the Papists suggestions that they must not Kneele vnlesse they doe adore the Sacrament which yet are the signes of the most ignorant among them and partly our schismaticall whisperings that the people do adore or make show of adoring bread and wine when they do Kneele that doth endanger the people and trouble vs all making the multitude for a great part eyther open Recusants because they may not adore or dangerous sectaries in that they will not Kneele which they thinke to be idolatrous adoration S. The rather encline the people to Popery because by the 21. Canon it is prouided that no bread and wine newly brought shall be vsed but first the words of Institution shall bee rehearsed when the said bread and wine be present vpon the Communion table As if the words were incantations and the table like an Altar which sanctifieth the sacrifice P. Kinde and naturall children will lesson and extenuate their mothers fault but neuer aggrauate her offences much lesse raise slanders of her when shee deserues none Yee are most vnkinde to your Mother the church of England which hath conceiued and tenderly fed you with the food of Gods word and refreshed you with the heauenly comforts of his Sacraments This our mother and the holy Sacrament will haue vs put in minde both who is the author of those holy mysteries and why they are instituted and all to raise vp in vs a more reuerend respect of those sacred signes when shee doth nothing but well and to our singular good shall we vnkindly turne her good directions and instructions into euill and say she is faultie when she deserueth praise shee would haue vs to approach vnto the holy Supper as to an heauenly banquet you belike would haue vs thether to repaire as vnto a common feast Is shee that inspireth vs with diuine thoughts or you rather which receiue or would haue vs to resort vnto the supper as vnto a common feast shee enioying the diuine words of institution you leauing them quite out as if we were but at a ciuill and homely dinner or supper faultie And what herein doth she contrary to Gods word or differing from the example of Christ who took bread and wine and before hee distributed them or his Disciples did eate gaue thanks and shewed what they signified and why instituted Tell what in the words of our booke is erronious What in the forme superstitious If you cannot be ashamed to tearme such diuine wordes Incantations which are holy instructions ministring necessary and diuine meditations vnto our selues and making the table yea our Altar and all there-vppon most
assertion namely that Kneeling in the very act of receiuing the Sacramentall Bread and wine in the holy communion cannot be without sinne Say not then hence forward how dare a Christian man hauing knowledge kneele in the presence of any who for want of knowledge receiue superstitiously for such a Christian dare kneele hauing good warrant for his so doing may work much good thereby his exemplary Kneeling teaching both the weake to cast away their vncharitable and rash supitions of their neighbours and bretherē for Kneeling who doubt lesse if by none ouert act or speech they declare the contrary receiue religiously superstitious Communicants if any such repaire vnto the Communion to conuert their Kneeling vnto the glory of God which others whome through ignorāce infirmity they do fauor but too much do superstitiously idolatrously abuse in th' Romish sinagogue S. Of which sort of superstitious receiuers seeing ther bee so many euen vntill this houre and euer likely to be that wee know not when and where to Communicate without some such either old or young It followeth that if sitting at the Table in the holy Temple could not bee without sinne in the Apostles time so Kneeling cannot bee without sinne in these dayes when the number of the faithfull teachers bee much decreased but of Papists much increased by our Kneeling much confirmed in their bread worship P. Conceiue better of the Communicants of our Church then that the number of them which superstitiously do receiue should bee so great least the same measure be ministred to you Schismatikes which you offer to others men likewise take offence at your sitting as at a gesture in our churches very vnseemely signe of no rightly deuout religious but prophane persons the number of which more apparently doth increase then doth the number of superstitious Communicāts And so surmises being had by some that such such be superstitious because they Kneele others be vain prophane for that they sit weakenes of mind on either both sides alledged for their Recusancie to ioyne either with those superstitions or these prophane yea with them which bee neither prophane nor superstitous the vnion of our Churche by this new Recusancie and vterly refusing the Communion be dissolued and broken But did none giue offence to weake consciences by their sitting as you say though you name no man many doe by Kneeling yet doth it not follow that because Christians could not sit lawfully at table in the Idols temple and sinne not therefore none can without sinne kneele in our churches and at the holy Communion For our churches bee not Idols temples our Tables in them not Idols tables our communicants not the worst of them no not so much as in show but onely by surmise and vnbrotherly suspitions superstitions If you thinke the contrary great is your sinne and heauie the accompt you shall make for so thinking That teachers especially faithfull teachers decrease I hope not sure I am is not so notorious as that Papists do encrease and the encreasing of these to bee the diminution of the superstitions you speake of But that being encreased they are confirmed yea much confirmed in their bread-worship by our Kneeling is soone said but not prooued nor will euer be iustified S. If his Maiesties iudgement bee sound that the surplice is not to be worne if Heathenish men were conuersant among vs who thereby might take occasion to bee strengthned in their Paganisme shall we by our corrupt practise of Kneeling strengthen the Papists who swarme among vs in their idolatry R. Wee doubt not of the soundnesse and sinceritie of our Kings iudgement Hee conceiueth better of Papists though they bee too bad then of Heathens and Pagans And therefore albeit hee would not suffer the Surplice to bee worne if Heathenish men were conuersant among vs least they should be strengthened in their Paganisme yet doth hee not onely suffer but enioyne the said Surplice to bee worne of the holy Ministers albeit Papists do swarme in this kingdome Thereby not strengthening them as by a Popish relique in their Poperie but letting them and all men see that hee condemneth nothing in vse among them that may bee well vsed And yet had you marked what followeth proceeding from the soundnesse and profoundnesse of his most excellent iugdement you might haue seene that his Highnesse vtterly condemneth not all the doctrine and ceremonies in the Church of Rome taught and vsed but those ceremonies onely and doctrines which are corrupt sauoring of error and superstition not of the puritie and veritie of the primitiue Christians There should you read and perceiue his constant and resolute opinion to bee that no Church ought further to separate it selfe from the church of Rome either in doctrine or ceremonie than shee hath departed from her selfe when she was in her flourishing and best estate and from Christ her Lord and head Among which corruptions his Maiesty neuer counted either the surplice by you mentioned or the Kneeling betweene vs controuerted to be But whatsoeuer corruptions haue bin either in Kneeling or the surplice yet the said corruptions being taken away and these appointed now reformed to the seruice of God with what face can you call either our practise in kneeling to bee corrupt or the Papists swarming among vs to be confirmed in their bread worship by our kneeling which is nothing Popish S. If the State doth well in ordering the Sacrament to be administred in vsuall bread to tale away superstition whereas Christ did by occasion minister in vnleauened bread shall not we do ill in teaching or confirming superstition by kneeling whereas Christ did of purpose minister sitting P. Doth the State well in changing the bread speake Schismatick for your words are equiuocal If wel therein yet varying from the purpose of Christ then may you see the weakenesse of your fourth argument afore alledged binding vs necessarily to the example of Christ as to a Persian law which may not be broken For he ministred with vnleauened we solemnize the Supper with bread vsuall and leauened and yet in so doing sinne not The same State which changed vnleauened into vsual and bread leauened in place of your pretended sitting hath appointed Kneeling at the Communion changing the site by the same authority which she did the bread thereby doing well in both or neither Which Kneeling also would the same State haue altered into sitting or some other seemly and comly gesture had it beene perswaded that the same Kneeling either had or should offend the mindes of Christian communicants as it knew the sight of vnleauened Waser Cakes would displease the godly and be dishonorable to God Finally if we either teach or confirme superstition by our kneeling we do surely therein very ill but that wee so do is yet in question not granted by me nor will euer be prooued by you Wee swarue no whit from the minde and purpose whatsoeuer wee doe from
the example of Christ by our Kneeling and therefore in Kneeling do not sinne S. Setting vp of Images in Churches onely to be Laie mens bookes is by authority condemned because they are as stumbling blockes in the way of the blind So that they haue beene are still and will bee here-after worshipped by ignorant persons Is not Kneeling as scandalous How can it then be iustified P. Iustly haue Images those Lay-mens bookes by authority beene condemned I thinke you will affirme as much Gods word is directly against such Images Now could you make good your words that Kneeling is as scandalous now as Images sometime were in our Churches I would be of your minde that it is to bee condemned as Images were That Images the Images I meane that you speake of are such stumbling blocks I doe read both in the bookes of God and otherwise in most godly and approoued writers old and new but that kneeling at the Communion is as scandalous as Images and therefore to be condemned is doctrine proceeding newly from the braine of of you Schismaticks neuer afore heard of among the people of God SECTION 13. Whether the Kings commandement to Kneele maketh Kneeling to be no sinne S. IT is said that the Kings commandement taketh away scandall in things indifferent P. What say you herevnto S. It may be auerred that this is a begging of a questioÌ„ except it be proued by the word that Kneeling may bee without sinne that though it be an institution of man contrary to the example of Christ a signe of coÌ„munion rather with Antichrist his synagogue of Rome theÌ„ with Christ and his church it haue no proportion with Sacramentall eating and haue beene is and will be bread-worship P. That wee may kneele at the Communion with-out sinne and that the said Kneeling is neither a meere institution of man nor contrary to the example of Christ nor a signe of any Communion at all with Antichrist his synagogue nor hinders a whit the Sacramentall eating of Christ nor finally with vs euer hath beene is or I hope shall bee any Bread-worship hath sufficiently beene prooued by vndeniable and strong arguments And therefore go on prooue that it may not by the authority of the King be enioyned S. Suppose that in it self it were as indifferent as was eating of flesh sacrificed to an Idol not in the Idols temple but at a priuat table where no weake ones were in the Apostles time yet how doth the Kings coÌ„mandement take away scandall from Kneeling in publicke places doth it make all so sure that none can be scandalized or if that cannot be doth it take away guiltinesse from the scandalizer as if all the blame of scandalizing were in the Kings commandement Surely it must be in the former or else in the latter it cannot be P. Our Kneeling euen in the publicke churches is no scandalizing but accidentally as any good euen the best thing may bee And therefore neither doth the King offend in commanding nor wee offend in obeying and so is there neither scandall nor scandalizer nor any iustly scandalized by kneeling for neither doth Kneeling nor the Kneeler nor the King commanding to kneele deserue any blame You take things for granted which will not be confessed Here is no offence giueÌ„ in any respect at all S. By scandalizing a weake brother perrisheth Of whose blood the scandalizer is guiltie as Ioab was of Vriabs blood notwith-standing the Kings commandement P. What of this Insinuate you all Kneelers to be like bloody Ioabs our King commanding vs to Kneele to like Dauid when hee commanded that Vriah should bee murdered O vndutifull vngodly and inconsiderate imputations S. Here his Maiestie knowne to be of a gentle disposition and to haue learned yea professed better things in Scotland is most-humbly prayed to take the word King as spoken in imitation and vnder-stood of Cantor who knowne to be of a violent disposition did carry matters in the conuocation and published Canons not orderly and fully concluded as some of his Suffragane Prelates reported P. His Maiestie liued in Scotland a long-while and many years among Puritanes yet was neuer any Puritane him-selfe The most-reuerend Father whome you tearme in derision Cantor did neuer any thing about the publike affaires of the Church but vpon good aduise and lawfull consent nor published any Canons for the ordering of the Church but the soueraigne person of the kingdome euen his Maiestie him-selfe and that according to the Lawes and Statutes of the Realme and vnder his great Seale ratified them all These reproachfull words do but wound his Maiestie in the sides of his officers Go to your matter leaue theÌ„ if you haue any more to say S. It is impossible that the Kings commandement should make all so sure that none can bee scandalized the general ignorance of the people the dispotitioÌ„ of the ignorant vnto superstition the old leauen of Poperie not purged the multiplying of Papists all well considered P. All these thinges considered Kneeling at the communion vses according to th'ordinance of the Church of England and none otherwise is no Scandall giuen S. Nay rather it is likely that by the commandement the Scandall should bee the greater especially in regard of the 27. Canon where ministers are commanded vnder paine of suspension not wittingly to administer the Sacraments to any but to such as Kneele P. The Canon is necessary and to the preseruation of vnitie and the preuenting of hatefull confusions which otherwise too-offensiuely would spring spread ouer the kingdome Dangerous maladies must haue eating and biting medicines Gods ministers may thanke you Schismatikes for this seuere discipline They that wil not receiue Gods sacraments but as they list must by seuerity be driuen to take theÌ„ as they should It is a good rule in Phisicke stay the beginnings The Philosophers do say how Modâ—eus error in principio fit maximus in fine That error which at the last was greatest at the first was but a little one in Diuinitie we finde the same to bee most true For the foulest and most horrible heresies sprang but of petty Schismatikes at the first They must in time meete with cut of those Shismes that would not haue the Church pestered and molested with heretikes This very discourse of ours may put the world in minde what hideous horrible fancies this Recusancie of yours to Kneele leauing the vnion of the Church and Communion with vs in the sacraments because yee will not kneele hath already ingendred Your errors here-about are foule and monstrous and yet worser are behinde for the preuenting whereof we are on all sides from the King to the lowest and meanest subiect to set to our helping hands Neither be you nor any other men to thinke that punishment seuere which is rather necessarily for a publike good then willingly inflicted S. May not simple and superstitious persons take occasion thus to argue Why should Kneeling be
thus vrged by authority if the sacramental signing of the body and blood of Christ bee no more to be reuerenced then water applyed in Baptizing children seeing that is also a sanctified signe of Christ his blood that washeth away our sinnes and iniquity P. If they will by you be aduised the simple and superstitious shall so argue and thereby fall into a loathing of our manner of receiuing the sacrament But you and they must be answered how the church of England hath the two sacraments in equall price and estimation conceiuing highly and religiously of them both but ascribing diuine adoration yea none adoration at all either vnto the Bread wine of the one or vnto the water of the other albeit the water signifieth Christ his blood that washeth away our sins iniquity the bread wine the body and blood of Christ shed and giuen for mans redemption But for-so-much as we are baptized infants when wee know not what wee do and are men old or young when wee partake of the other also that the very Bread and VVine exhibited to these senses and handes of all communicants do sacramentally represent the body and bloud of our Lord the Ministers deliuerie of them Gods very offering his fauours in Christ vnto vs the bread broken his body dead the wine his bloud shed vpon the Crosse lastly the distributing both of the wine and bread Christ his benefits and Gods blessings imparted and communicated vnto all Communicants whereof they be remembred so oft as they receiue in all places of the world and to the worlds end what Christian seeing and seriously considering these and the like things but will bee excited with all due submission and religious reuerence to come vnto the participation and receiuing of such celestiall fauours Not because it is either vnlawfull or vndecent with like reuerence to receiue the other Sacrament but for that partly our tendernesse is such because of our yeares that wee cannot and partly the necessity is not so vrgent that wee need to Kneele But doubtlesse were wee of good yeares and did know what we go about when we are to be baptized as we know what we do such is my perswasion and ought to be of vs all of all persons communicating at the Supper when wee come to the table of the Lord doubtlesse the Lord would not be displeased did we Kneele at Baptisme then our assured perswasion is that hee is not offended with our Kneeling at his Supper Therefore whereas all worthy communicants euen in duty and conscience are bound with this signe of reuerence to receiue these holy and heauenly mysteries and yet many persons in one respect or other will not bend nor bow their Knees but in no case Kneele if authoritie doe force such stubborne and wilfull persons to doe that necessarily which of themselues voluntarily they should performe neither doth authoritie transgresse their bounds nor do they sinne that obay their command And so let this satisfie those simple and superstitious persons and be an answer vnto you THE CONCLVSION S. TO conclude if kneeling in the very act of taking eating and drinking the Sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion be an institution of man P. It is no meere institution of man S. If it be the taking of Gods name in vaine when it is without all respect of reuerence P. It is done with all respect of reuerence in the Church of England S. If God be not honored thereby except it be according to his will P. It is according to his will and so God thereby is honored S. If it swarue from the example of Christ his sitting and therefore deserueth no praise P. Though it swarue from the example yet is it against no commandement of Christ. And therefore not to bee condemned S. If it bee a prouoking sinne to reiect the exemplary sitting of Christ whereby wee show our selues to bee in the Communion with Christ and the reformed churches and to retaine Kneeling which for bread-worship ought to bee banished and whereby wee seeme to bee in communion with Antichrist and his synagogue P. Wee reiect not the exemplary sitting of Christ neither should we sit haue we by it the more fellowship with Christ and his Churches reformed whose fellowship which without sitting praised be God we doe enioy is in partaking of spirituall graces in obeying and doing his precepts and in professing of Christian religion iointly and with one heart and minde neither by our Kneeling haue we either the lesse with Christ his true churches or the more familiaritie and communion with Antichrist and his synagogue In which respect neither is Kneeling to be banished out of our churches because of the Papists bread-worship nor do the kneelers by kneeling commit a prouoking sinne yea any sinne at all S. If it obscureth that reioycing familiaritie in and with Christ which the Lords supper signifieth P. At the Lords supper Kneeling obscureth not but furthereth our familiaritie and ioy with Christ and Christians S. If the argument from Christ his example be made the stronger in that he sat of purpose P. Christ his purposely sitting whatsoeuer it was maketh not our purposely kneeling to be vnlawfull S. If the lawfulnesse of choosing a fitter time than the euening cannot iustifie our reiecting Christ his exemplary sitting P. By the same authority Gods people may leaue the example of Christ in sitting if hee did sit whereby they left his example of ministring the supper in the euening vnlesse by some order and decree he had enioyned his example for our necessary imitation S. If the bittes of prayer ioyned with the words of institution do make Kneeling the more sinfull P. Euery bit yea and euery crumme of that prayer vsed with sound faith and deuotion doth make our kneeling the more acceptable vnto God S. If kneeling bee not as indifferent as standing nor best beseeming the holy communion and the King must appoint nothing but by the hand of the Lord. P. It is as indifferent and more conuenient than standing and in our iudgment and perswasion best beseeming the communion and appointed euen by God himselfe by the hand of our Lord the King S. If wee ought to abhorre Kneeling as wee abhorre Images transubstantiation and consubstantiation P. Kneeling is a pure ceremonie of our Church voide of all superstition and Idolatry whatsoeuer and our kneelers the most sincere worshippers of God and neither themselues nor their Kneeling to be abhorred S. If to scandalize bee greeuouslie to sinne and kneeling be a showe of the greatest euils and withall the greatest scandall P. There is no scandall giuen by kneeling neither is kneeling euill nor show of euill much lesse of the greatest euils or the greatest scandall S. If it bee a begging of the question to affirme kneeling to be indifferent and the Kings commandement so called both rather encrease than lesson scandall by kneeling P. Kneeling hath not as yet beene showne to bee of it selfe vnlawfull