the Bishops before him BAR. I desire nothing more then Christiā cōference but hauing bene 2 yeares well nye an half kept by the Bishops in close prysō could neuer as yet obteine anie such cōferēce where the Booke of God might peaceablie decide all owr controuersies ANDR. Whie the Booke of God cānot speake which way should that decide owr controuersies BAR. But the spirit of God can speake and which way is that spirit tryed or discerned but by the word of God ANDR. But the spirits of men must be subiect vnto men will you not subiect your spirit to the iudgment of men BAR. The spirit of the prophets must be subiect to the prophets yet must the prophets iudg by the word of God And for me I willingly submit my whole faith to be tryed iudged by the word of God of all men ANDR. All men cannot iudge who then shal iudge of the word BAR. The word and let euery one that iudgeth take hede that he iudge aright therby vvisdome is iustified of her Children ANDR. This sauoreth of a pryuat spyrit BAR. This is the spirit of Christ his Apstles moste publique they submitted theire doctrines to the triall of all men by the word So do I. ANDR. What are you an Apostle BAR. No but I haue the spirit of the Apostles ANDR. What the spirit of the Apostles BAR. Yea the spirit of the Apostles ANDR. What in that measure BAR. In that measure that God hath imparted vnto me though not in that measure that the Apostles had by anie comparison yet the same spirit There is but one spirit HVTCH. Well you will confer then and we come to confer with you if you vvill BAR. I am most willing of anie conference that may be to the glory of God and owr edefying HVTCH. Well let vs go to it then What say you to these propositions Hauing the Bishops articles Somes booke in his hand BAR. For Somes booke I disclaimed it and sayd the mā had greatly iniured me For anie propositions that I hold I was desirous to set downe myne owne propositiōs and neuer required either the BB s. or Do. Some to set them downe for me HVTCH. I was at the great Commission a yeare agoe where you did set downe with your owne hand your owne answeres BAR. Then did you see the Bishops offer me the greatest wronge that I suppose was euer offred to anie Christian in anie age I was brought out of my close pryson cōpelled there to answere of the sodaine vnto such articles as the Bishops in theire secret Councell had contriued against vs. I could not be admitted anie furder respire or consideration neither anie present conference with anie of my bretheren neither yet so much as a Copie of myne owne answers though I most earnestly humblie besought the same but haue euer since bene kept in most streight emprisonment without companie ayre or comfort neuer hearing of anie kinde of conference vntill now But haue in the meane vvhile bene greuouflie sclandered blasphemed and accused by sparsed articles printed priuiledged books in theire pulpets in open Session and vnto owre honorable maiestrats HVTCH. We will not heare your complaints because we cānot redresse your complaints ANDR. For close emprisonment you are most happie The solitarie contemplatiue life I hold the most blessed life It is the life I would chuse BAR. You speake philosophically but not Christianly So sweete is the harmonie of Gods graces vnto me in the congregation and the conuersation of the Saints at all tymes as I think my self as a sparrow on the howse toppe when I am exiled from them But could you be content also M r. Androes to be kept from exercise ayre so long togeather These are also necessarie to a naturall bodye ANDR. I say not that I would want ayre But who be those Saincts you speake of where are they BAR. They are euen those poore Christiās whom you so blaspheme persequote and now most vniustly hold in your prysons ANDR. But where is theire Congregation BAR. Though I knew I purposed not to tell you HVTCH. They are a companie of Sectories as you also are BAR. Know you vvhat a Sectorie is HVTCH. I know you to be Sectories Schismaticks BAR. What both It should seeme you know not what a Sectory is But it is euident that your Church is deeply set both in Schisme apostacye HVTCH. A Sectory Schismatick are both one BAR. That is not so A Schismatick is euer cut from the Church a Sectory is not so HVTCH. They are both one and come indifferently of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 scindo findo ANDR. There is difference betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a schisme and an heresie the one signifying election the other a rent But I neuer heard of anie difference betwixt a Schisme a sect both comming of one word BAR. Though they both come of one roote yet is not a Schisme and a Sect all one Here they would needs haue a greeke Dictionary greatly wished it So I sent for scapula which being fetched did not satisfie vs concerning this point ANDR. Secta in latine is the same that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greeke BAR. I denie that There is difference betwene a Sect and a Schisme ANDR. Secta coms of seco to cut and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to cut what difference BAR. I take the vse of the word Secta rather to be of sequor to follow because Secta a Sect signifieth via a way and great difference appeareth in the Scriptures betwixt a Schismaticke a Sectory A Sectory is allways in the Church a Schismaticke allwayes out of the Church ANDR. Where finde you this in the Scriptures BAR. I finde it 1. Cor. 3. and Hebr. 10. In the one place Sectories in the other Schismaticks described ANDR. The Sectories 1. Cor. 3. are Schismaticks BAR. That cannot be they were cheif teachers of in the Church of Corinth where the Apostle reproueth them because some held of followed one teacher some of an other as if one had held of Paul another of Apollos ANDR. There contentions are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 BAR. What of that yet you see these were Sectories and Schismaticks are they which haue cut thēselues from the Church Hebr. 10. by leauing the fellowship HVTCH. 1 Cor. 11. The Apostle saith that Schismes are amongst them Therfore in the Church BAR. What is that to the purpose I hope you will not say that he cā be a Schismatick vntill he haue rent himself frō the Church There shalbe heresies Schismes in the Church yet no hereticke or Schismaticke vntill they be eyther cōuinced remaine obstinate or else haue cut themselues from the Church by forsaking the fellowship ANDR. Augustine saith that an heretick breaketh the faith a Schismatick charitie BAR. A Schismatick also breaketh the faith by departing from the communion
heathen they could not excommunicate because they were neuer in communion with them The Publicanes they did not excommunicate because they still admitted them vnto the Temple ANDR. I will shew you in Scripture that the Gentiles were not suffred to enter into the Temple Therfore they were excommunicate And the other was a ciuile discommuning BAR. It should seeme you know not what excommunication is They were neuer admitted to enter into the Temple Therfore they were not excommunicat For none can be excommunicat but he that hath bene in cōmunion But the heathen was neuer in Communiō As for this ciuile discommuning of such as are still held members of the Church it is a most vngodly deuise For to cast out or abhor in owr commō meats such as the Lord receiueth vnto his Table were verie vnchristian ANDR. You vnderstand not the place Did not owr Sauiour Christ there speake of excommunication willing them to haue such as refused to heare the Church in detestation as the Iewes held theire heathens publicanes whom they excommunicat BAR. Oure Sauiour there speaketh not of excommunication of the Iewes but of the excommunicat Christians willing all his Disciples to shunne eschue such as heare not the Church as the Iewes did the heathens the Publicanes to haue neither spirituall nor ciuile communion with thēm But what is all this to the purpose what answere do you make to my former reason HVTCH. Which reason You haue as yet made none but proued the same whith the same BAR. This reason All the people of the Land were receiued into the Church at one instant had this ministrie these Sacraments c. without being called vnto faith repentance by the preaching of the gospell Therfore they were receiued into your Church without true faith and repentance because it is impossible to haue true faith true repētance without the preaching of the gospell going before ANDR. Was not the Eunuche as sodainly receiued into the Church had the Sacraments administred vnto him with as little knowledg as they BAR. No he was called by the preaching of Phillip and had more knowledg then anie of these people or well nigh anie of theire teachers thē had being all generally plunged in apostacy Idolatry immediatly before ANDR. Could he bewray greater ignorance then to doubt of so Mr. Andros read the place out of Esai plaine a place as none in the Scriptures coud be more manifest He vvas vvounded for our transgressions he vvas broken for our iniquities The chastisment of our peace vppō him vvith his stripes vve are healed of whom else could this be vnderstood but of Christ BAR. I not loking vppō the place as Luke recordeth it Act. 8. Espied not then how craftely Mr. Androes falsefied misaledged the text Yet I added this He vvas led as a Shepe vnto the slaughter like a lambe domb before his sherer So opened he not his mouth My answere therfore herevppon was that it was no ignorant question But that the greatest Rabbine of those times might well haue asked the question seing it is so commō a thing in the Prophetts to haue figured manie things that came vnto Christ in theire owne persons as appeareth euery where in the booke of psalmes and also in this prophecy and almost in all other Is it not said in this prophet Behold I the children that thou hast giuen me are as signes vvonders in Israell might not this questiō then be well asked whither the Prophet spake it in his owne person or of an other ANDR. It was a most ignorant question Could anie beare or be broken for owr transgressions but Christ only BAR. But the Prophet might be led as a sheope vnto the slaughter c. And therfore the question was according vnto knowledge and such as without knowledg could not be moued Or vnlesse it were knowne that text not be vnderstood This Eunuche was a godly zealous Proselite before Phillip met with him ANDR. What will you say godly before he had the knowledge of Christ BAR. Yea I say godly and that before he knew that Christ was exhibited come in the flesh ANDR. Then belike in that estate the Eunuche might haue bene saued if so be he had dyed before he had heard that Christ was come in the flesh ascended BAR. Yea I doubt not therof ANDR. HVTCH. That is heresie will you set that downe vnder your hande BAR. Yea that I will and abide by it also to be truth and proue both you hereticks if you obstinatly affirme and teach the contrarye ANDR. Whie then there were two faithes two wayes of saluatiō one for Iewes an other for Christians BAR. It followeth not There was but one faith one saluation commō to all beleiuers from the begynning Christ to day yesterday for euer the same The Iewes beleiued in Christ to come The Gentiles then in Christ come Both in Christ Both saued by faith in Christ. The Iewes that had not as yet seene the person nor heard of the ministerie of Christ dying in that estate were vndoubtedly saued The Lord bare much a long tyme with the Iewes and gaue a tyme of remouing these things HVTCH. The Eunuche made a true profession when he confessed IESVS to be the Sonne of GOD was then baptised Therfore owr people making as good confession whie should they not also as sodainly be receiued to the Sacraments ministerie BAR. It hath oft bene sayd that your people do not neither could make so good a confession as the Eunuche because they had not the preaching of the gospell going before theire confession neither shewed they such fruits of faith as the Eunuche did who was a true worshipper of GOD before ANDR. The Gaoler in the Acts was as sodainly called baptised and shewed no more fruites of faith then these did BAR. That is not so he washed the Apostles stripes administred comfort vnto them foode vnto them after that he his howse-hold had heard beleiued the word preached But I neuer heard of anie Church erected in this maner without the word preached going before as yours is ANDR. They had the word preached in king Edwards time BAR. What boted that when they all fell to Idolatrie in Q. Maries time and all without being called to repentance by the gospell were receiued into your Church c. HVTCH. The confession they made was sufficient BAR. That is denied and proued insufficient because it was not wrought by the preaching of the gospell going before Answere that reason Herevppon Mr. Hutchinson toke the pen ynke wrote to this effect HVTCH. The confessiō of sinne that is publiquely made in the Church of England is sufficient to enable all such as say it sincerely to the ministerie Sacraments of the Church BAR. The verball confessiō that is prescribed vsed in the Church of England is not sufficiēt to enable the people that say it or say Amen vnto it
Fleete Mr. Androvves Iohn Greenwood in the Fleete Mr. Hutchinsō Do Sarauea Daniell Studley in the Fleete M r. Grauet Walter Lane in the Fleete M r. Fissher Edmond Tomson in the gatehouse M r. Iudson Iohn Nicolas in the gatehouse Mr. Temple William Dodson in the gatehowse Mr. Allison Iohn Barrens in the gatehowse Do Blague Iohn Cranford in the gatehowse M r. Herd Richard vvheeler in the gatehowse Mr. Harvye Thomas Canadine in the gatehowse A brief answeare to such Articles as the Bishopps haue giuen out in our name vpon which articles their Priests were sent and injoyned to Confer with vs in the seuerall prisons wherin we are by them detayned HOw charitablie soeuer theis forged positions conningly cōtriued may seme to be framed in respect of the sclaunderous priuiledged pamphletts heretofore dispersed through the whole land by the enemies of Christ suppressors of all righteousnes to bring vs in contempt with all men yet if we consider the end more sereously vvay the present drift of theis BBs theire priests and new reconciled Reformists set a worke in this busines we shal finde they neuer went more craftely about the spilling of owre innocent bloud For they in theire secret consultations hauing collected theis articles haue allso togeather vvith them constituted commaunded certaine theire priests twise euery weeke during this Lent to offer vs priuate conference in way of examination or auriculer confession to fish farther cause of accusation vppon theis poincts vvhose testimonie verdict of suborned vvitnesses they think to frame to their bloudthirstie appetites vve in the meane tyme not suffred eyther to set downe owre ovvne positions neyther before equall vvytnesses to ansvver or discouer theire false allegations Wherfore vve thought it good being all close prysoners to relate vnto all men that desire the truth ovvre simple iudgments in theis doctrines vvherat they thus snarrle vve resting still most desirous of anie christian or equall conference before indifferēt vvitnesses set dovvne recorded if vve might obteine the same vppon the dispence of ovvre lyues yea the God of heauen knovveth hovv vvilling ready vve are to be instructed or corrected in anie thing vvherin vve err vvhen it shalbe shevved vs by the booke of God First then vnderstand that theis accusers affirme theis to be ovvre positions vvhich they haue framed of theire ovvne braine vvithout ovvre knovvledg much lesse cōsent Secondly they pronunce vs nevve sectories although vve hold no other thing in iudgment or practize more then Christ his Apostles haue taught vs in the Scriptures and cōfirmed by theire examples deathes And vvhether Christs Testament in theis mens antichristian lavves ordinances fetched from Rome or deuised by themselues be novv to be holden nevve doctrines let all men consider Thirdly they call vs Recusants hauing neither forsaken the fellovvship of the true Church or least member of Christ that vvalketh in the Communion of the faith submytting himself to be guyded by Christs lavves ordinances nor refused anie truth approued vnto vs. Only vve according to the Commandment of God haue forsakē all sprirituall fellovvship vvith theire false Church as also the inuetions popery yea all the execrable marchandize of that ministery confused Babell euen that vvorld of vvickednes Out of vvhich the Lord dravve fourth all his elected 1. That it is not lavvful to vse the Lords prayer publiquely in the Church for a set forme of prayer THe Lords prayers vve take to be those prayers vvhich himself offred to his father in his ovvne person as he vvas man vppō earthe according to his present occasions the will of his father poured fourth The forme of prayer gyuen to his Disciples to all posterities by the record of the Euangelists we hold acknowledg most holy Canonicall scripture to be vsed of all Churches in that vse and to that end for which owre Sauioure gaue it Namely to be the perfect patterne rule of all owre prayers vvhether deprecations supplications thanksgyuing c. Not that we are bounde to the very vvords saying ouer or asking all things therin conteined euery tyme we pray nether that the words red or sayd ouer by rote can be called a prayer seing all prayer must proceede of Gods spyrit from owr owne harts according to owre present necessities So that where he calleth it the Lords prayer he falsefieth the text seing Christ neuer did or could vse it as his owne prayer For there is petition made for remission of synnes he neuer trespassing And where he saith we hold it vnlawfull to be vsed publiquelye in the Church for a fet forme of prayer he sclaundereth vs vve graunt it to be the absolute perfect only forme of all true prayers If anie demaund further vvhether vve may vse the vvords therof eyther wholy as they are set downe or anie sentence of them in prayers we answer by explication or application tending to edifying expressing owre present estate vve may The same questions may be demaunded of the prayers mentioned in the Psalmes dyuerse other scriptures to which vve aunswere that we restraine no man of the vse of anie parcell or sentence of Scripture rightly applyed Yet herevppon is not iustified eyther theire fyue tymes saying ouer of theire Pater Noster in theire English morrow masses nor yet theire superstitious repetition of theis words in the conclusions of theire prayers after or before theire sermons vvhen as they say they knowe not vvhat to aske and therfore pray as Christ hath taught them by repeting these vvords vvhich thei call the Lords prayer where in thei lye 2. That all sett stinted prayers are meere babling in the sight of the Lord and not to be vsed in publique Christian assemblies FOr such formes of prayer as are Canonicall such as be commended to vs by Gods spirit in his word we haue already in the former Article set downe the true holy vse of them to be for instruction c. But that anie man should thrust his deuises into the worship of God christian assemblies we wonder at theire ignorant presumption and much more that they dare be so bold as to set stint the holy ghost what vvhen hovv manie vvords to vtter in prayer So that your annuall monthly dayly morning and euening prayers vvherin you bynde mens consciences to the prescript repetition of your ovvne vvords as an offring to God vve hold them by the euidēce of Gods booke not only a babling but apochriphall Idolatrous contrary to the second Commaundmēt bringing the vvrath of God vppon the imposers receauers For by theis Idolls you take avvay the vvhole lyberty fredome true vse of spirituall prayer yea you stop the springs of the lyuing fountaine vvhich Christ hath sealed in his Church 3. That the publique prayers vvorship of God in England as it is by lavve in the Church of England established is false superstitious popish not so be vsed in anie
Christian Conngregation IF Christ Iesus the author fiinisher of owre faith haue constituted confirmed the ministration of the new Testament perfect for all ages persons how to serue him according to his vvyll then your liturgye drawen out of the Popes portuis is not only Idolatrous superstitious a deuised vvorship the inuentions precepts of men in stead of the liuelye graces present guifts of his spirit wherby men call vppō his name but a bondle of infinite grosse blasphemous errors yea euen a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or counterfeit gospell not only set aboue the gospell of Christ but dyrectly instituting an other ministry ministracōn then Christ hath commended commaunded to his Church till his apearing in the clouds to iudgmēt vnto vvhich Idoll and huge Chaos of long gathered patched errors all your ministery is sworne vvherby they renounce Christs Testamēt must administer by this liturgye babling ouer the seuerall parcells therof as thei are lymited prescribed stinted from yeare to yeare day to day By which liturgye or new gospell the priests of that order are approued sufficient without preaching or the guyft of teaching and the repeating of that 〈◊〉 booke accompted sufficient for all mens saluation And if anie do preache his doctrines must be conformed to the orders hereof The errours in this Idolatrous booke conteyned vvould not be easely repeated in half a day yet this vve are able to proue that it instituteth apointeth another ministery ministration in all points then Christs Testament hath confirmed not only peruerting making of no effect the ordinances of God concerning the vvorship of his people but establishing another in the place therof as in theire prayers Sacraments fasts feasts offrings purifications maryages buryalls c. manifestly apeareth 4. That the Church of England as it is novve established is no entire member of the Church of Christ. THe Common vvealth of England or parish assemblies as they gennerally stand vnder subiect vnto the aforesaide vvorship ministery consisting of all sorts of vncleane spirits Atheists papists hereticks c. are not the true apparant established Churches of Christ or communion of saincts and so by outward profession they neither being gathered from the vvorld to the obedyence of Christ neither hauing power or freedom to practice Christs Testament as the truth is reuealed are no entire member of the body of Christe 5. That the gouernment of the Church of England as it is novv established is no lavvfull gouernment nor Christian but antichristian and popish HAuing in the former articles sufficiently proued theire worship ministerye to be Idolatrous forbidden in the second Cōmaundment as all apochripha inuentions of men It is euident to all men confessed of owre enemies that the ministers lawes other ordinācs wherby the parish assemblies are gouerned are not such as Christ apointed to his Church of Pastor Teacher Elders Deacons c. But by such officers Courts Cannons as are hatched from Rome as Archb. L. BBs c. whose titles office or administracōns were neuer heard of in the scriptures 6. That the Sacraments of Babtisme the Lords Supper as they are administred in the Church of England be not true Sacraments THere neither being lawfull ministery to administer nor faithfull holye free people orderly gathered vnto the true true outward professiō of Christ as we haue before shewed and consequently no Couenant of grace the Sacraments in these assēblies of Babtisme and the Lords supper gyuē vnto Atheists papists vvhoremasters drunkerds theire seede delyuered also after a superstitious maner according to theire liturgye and not according to the institution rules of Christs Testament are no true Sacraments nor seales vvith promise 7. That infants ought not to be baptised according to the forme of Babtisme ministred novv in the Church of England but are rather to be kept vnbaptized NO godly Christians seperat from the false Church ought to bring theire infants to theis parish assemblies to be baptised into that felowship or profession by that ministery or according to that order but in the true Church to seeke the Seale of the Couenant so sone as it may be had by the true ministerye in the Congregation according to Christs institution we still affirme 8. Manie of them make scruple to affirme that the Queens Maiestie hath supreame aucthoritie to gouerne the Church of England in cases ecclesiasticall and to make lavves ecclesiasticall nos contrarye to Christ lavves ALL true Christians vvithin her Maiesties dominions acknowledg her Maiestie to be the supreame maiestrate gouernesse of all persons with in the Church vvithout the Church yea ouer all causes ecclesiasticall ciuill yet allwayes vvith this Caueat that no flesh may presume to add anie thing to his vvord or diminish anie thing from it This vve make no scruple to affirme 9. That the lavves ecclesiasticall alreadye established by the aucthoritie of the Queene Realme be not lavvfull SEing the ecclesiasticall lavves Canons Iniunctions Articles Courts ministery c. vvherby these parish assemblies be gouerned and guyded are not deryued from the booke of God or can be vvarranted therby or grounded theruppon but are the inuentions of men vvhich tourne avvay the truth abrogating Christs lavves ordinances yea seing they are culled out if not whollie receaued from that great Antichrist his Canons orders diuelish polecies as most malignant oppositions against the vvill of God confirmed perfected vvith Christs bloud miracles from heauen therfore these Canons Iniunctions articles hovv plawsible soeuer they agree to the vvorld yet are they the execrable wares of Antichrist Statuts of Omry and not to be receaued or obeyed of anie that loue the Lord Iesus Christ. 10. That if the Prince or Maiestrate vnder her doe refuse or defer to reform such faults as are amisse in the Church the people may take the reforming of them in theire ovvne hands before or vvith out her aucthoritie NEyther do we looke for anie reformation of Babell that is this world of confusion your false Church neither do we take vppon vs to intermeddle with the Magistrats sword but keepe owre selues in thought word deed within the lymitts of owre calling in all dutifull obedyence to owre prince superiours for conscience towards God and teach men both by vvord example so to vvalke But that all that vvylbe saued must forsake the false Church by repentance come vnder Christs obedience to serue vvorship God aright in his true Church vve hold it so true a doctrine as that there is no other meanes or promise of saluation Nether may vve eyther neglect the true seruice of god nor practise of anie part therof or haue fellowship vvith the works of darknes though the prince should inhibit the one commaund the other no herein vve shew no disobediēce to magistrats vvhose displeasure vve must rather vndergoe then fall into the hands of the euerlyuing
at that tyme be set ouer them in that estate 16. They still denied the Maior gaue this reason therof because the vnbeleeuers might heare the ministerie of the Church Wee graunted that the vnbeleeuers might heare the ministerie of the Church but from hence it followeth not that they had interest in the ministerie before they were members of the Church It is one thing to heare the ministerie of the Church an other thing to be a member of the Church 17. Then they brought Pauls example to proue that a ministerie might be set ouer infidells because he was said to be the teacher of the Gentiles all the Apostles willed to goe and teach all nations To this it was answered that Paul stood no minister neither tooke gouernment or chardge ouer anie heathen which were not called to the faith ioyned to the Church still putting difference betwixt teaching the heathen the truth exercising a ministerie ouer them 18. They alledged 1 Pet. 1. that the Apostle there tooke chardge care ouer strangers Yt was answered that those strangers were Iewes called to the faith dispersed through manie regions as the next verse 1 Pet. 1.2 Iames 1. sheweth 19. Paul wrote himself a father of the Corinths though ye haue manie teachers yet haue ye but one father Yt was still answered that those Corinthians were beleeuers Argument 3. There can be no communion betvvixt the beleeuers vnbeleeuers therefore the infidells can haue no communion vvith the Church in the ministerie thereof or in anie spirituall action Being demaunded by them what we meant by communion we answered such cōmunion as is spoken of Act. 2.42 in doctrine in prayer in the sacraments in mutuall communication in all Christian duties how none were receaued to this communion before they were ioyned as members vnto the Church Argument 4. There can novv be no Pastor ouer anie people by the rules of Christi testamēt but vvhere a mutuall couenant is made betvveene the Pastor the people he bounde to teach guide gouerne them they againe to obey him in the Lord But the infidells haue made no such couenant vvith the Pastor Therfore c. 20. Do. Androes said the Pastor ought not to gouerne that he himself was a Pastor yet no guyde or gouernor of the flocke and that in the Church there were gouernors ouer the Pastors as Bishops We answered that the word Bishop or Ouerseer vvas a generall name cōmon to the Pastor teacher Elders vvhich name importeth gouernment care Phil. 1.1 Act. 20.28 21. Do. Androes here said that the vvord bishop was not common vnto either the Pastor teacher or Elders but vnto other higher gouernors We answered that vnto their ministerie the name of a bishop did not indeed accord but only vnto their Lord bishops desired some proofe of this their assertion out of the word of God 22. Vnto vvhich they answered that all their ministerie vvas by positiue lavves We then said that it must needs follow that all their religion vvorship was pollitick also that ministerie vvhich Christ hath not prescribed in his Testament is antichristian At lentgh after manie bitter reprochfull speaches against vs vve returned againe to our former discourse framed this Argument vnto the rest Argument 5. The people novv are to make choice proofe of their Paestor But thei vvithout the faith cannot make choice of theyr Pastor Therfore c. Here they said that this allowre other positions were fond vaine foolish this was all the answere vve could get of them Mr. Hutchinson at the breaking vp requyred me Henry Barrow to set downe some reasons whie I refused to ioine vnto their Church that the people present might be satisfied whervppon I set him downe vnder mine hand as followeth The reasons vvhie I Henry Barrow cannot ioine with the Church of England yeilded by me the 13. of the 4. Moneth 1. The people as they stand are not called orderly to the faith but stand mingled togeather in confusion 2. The ministerie set ouer them is not the true ministerie of the gospell which Christ hath appointed to his Church in his testament 3. The administration worship of this Church is not according to the word of God 4. The ecclesiasticall gouernment Courts officers Cannons are not according to the testament of Christ but new antichristian Vntill all these points be eyther approoued by the word of God or reformed I cannot consent to ioyne vnto this Church in this estate These things I witnesse subscribe H. Barrovv I Iohn Greenwood being demaunded by M r. Hutchinson whether I would set downe myne hād vnto this or ells yeild some other cause of my dislike refused to do either of both vntill he had prooued the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ as he had twise promised at neither of his commings would performe A breif answeare to certayne sclaunderous Articles vngodlie calumniations sparsed abrode by the BB s theire adherēts against diuerse faithfull true Christians her Maiesties loyall and louinge Subiectes to cullour theire owne vngodly tyrannicall dealing with them to bring them into hatred both with Prince and people Article 1. They hold that the Lords praier or anie sell prayer is blasphemy they neuer vse anie prayer for the Queene as supreame head vnder Christ of the Church of England Ansvveare WE hold that the Lords praier so commonly called is sacred Canonicall scripture cōteyning a most absolute perfect rule grownd worke wherby all faith full prayers ought to be framed gyuen by owr Sauyour Christ for the instruction and confirmatiō of his Disciples that theire prayers might be according to the will glory of God But that the very forme of words as they are in theis petitions were gyuē instituted as a sett stinted prayer or that owre Sauiour Christ his Apostles haue euer vsed yt in that maner we finde not in the scriptures where we see theire prayers according to theire present occasions c. set downe in other words no mention made of such prescript lymited saying of this as they requyre enioyne Moreouer if they were as ignorant what belongeth to true prayer or of the true vse of this forme for prayer as they seeme yet euen theyre owne practize in theire pulpyts Liturgies doth excuse vs thus far forth condemne them For her Maiestie we praye both publiquely pryuatly day night at all tymes places according to owre duties as becommeth vs and godwilling wyll not cease so to do whilst owre lyues shall last Article 2. That all set prayers or stinted prayers or read seruice are but meere bablinge in Gods sight plaine Idolatrie TO this we answeare that we are taught in the Scriptures That God is a Spirit wilbe worshipped in Spirit truth we finde further in the Script in owr selues That God gyveth to
of the Church ANDR. A Schismatick may depart from the Church and yet hold the faith BAR. They cannot hold the faith which forsake the fellowship of the faith ANDR. You speake ignorantly sondry Schismaticks haue not erred BAR. I speake truly as the holy ghost speaketh in the last verse of the 10. to the Hebr. But vve are not of the vvithdravving vnto destruction but of faith to the conseruation of our soule Here you see the keeping of the faith set opposite against the departing from the fellowship ANDR. Loking vppon my Testament 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vvithdrawing What is this to Schisme The place you would alledge is higher vp in the Chapter BAR. This is the place which I would now alledge what say you vnto it is not that withdrawing from the fellowship Schisme Can anie with-draw frō the fellowship and yet kepe the faith is there anie saluation out of the Church of saluation without faith ANDR. What is there none but a true faith neuer read you of anie other BAR. Yet acknowledg I but one faith as there is but one God c. which faith no Schismatick can haue and as for this false faith Deuills hereticks may also haue such faith But you will not say that an heretick doth hold the faith neither yet doth a Schismatick hold the faith ANDR. Do not hipocrits make a shew of faith and yet they haue no faith what faith is theirs BAR. There is no comparison betwixt hipocrits Schismaticks the one whilest he stadeth making shew of the true faith both by life profession so far as we can iudge the other making open breach of faith But after the hipocrite is once discouered I say then he also appeareth to haue no faith HVTCH. These are but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 strife about words shal we begyn to reason to some purpose BAR. If we may haue indifferent notaries that may iustly set downe what passeth on ech side so that we may eyther of vs haue a copie therof the better to expend consider of ech others reasons I am very willing at anie tyme or place so to reason HVTCH Here is one that can write and called one of his men BAR. He is no such wryter as I would haue Furder I would haue some witnesses because you are two I am but one ANDR. Rather then that shall be a hinderance I will goe vp reason with Mr. Greenwood and leaue you two togeather BAR. That is not my meaning I had rather you taried still Only because you are two I but one therfore your testimonie may the rather be taken against me Ynke paper being brought and manie entred into the Parlor we were first to set downe agree of a Prop. which after much discourse to fro M. Hutch set downe after this maner HVTCH. The parish Church of S t. Bride is a true Church to which anie Christian may ioyne in theire publique prayers and Sacraments as they are by lawe now established BAR. The Parish of your S t. Bride as it consisteth of a confuse multitude of all sorts of people mingled togeather in one body standing vnder a false ministerye in Idolatry disorder is not a true established Church of Christ and therfore not such as anie true Christian ought to ioyne vnto in theire prayers Sacraments as they stand in this estate Here Mr. Andros moued that seing the question was agreed vppon the time now far spent we might depart vntill an other tyme But I seing much companie gotten in and nothing more heard against me then this propositiō desired them to say somwhat vnto it in that tyme that remayned First therfore Mr. Androes found much fault with my proposition as disordered vnlearnedly set downe and therfore deserued no answere I sayd that if it were true it suffised me and vnlesse they could disproue it it must still stand in force against them Here we had also much adoe about owr order of reasoning whither it should be after their schole maner by Logicke or no. I desired to reason after a Christiā maner according vnto truth though not in logicall formes where after some discourse of the necessitie vanitie of the arte of logicke I said I would not bynde the maiestie of the Script to logicall formes whereabout we should haue more vaine cauilles and spēd more tyme thē about the discussing of the question and that my cōscience could neither be conuinced or instructed with anie syllogismes so much as with the weight of reason force of truth Wherefore at length they condiscending vnto me denied with one consent my whole proposition as false vntrue I also denied theire proposition as altogeather false and willed them to make profe of it But still vrdging me to proue myne I condiscended so to doo BAR. In my generall propositiō are cōteined fower principall heads Namely 1. The cōfuse commixture of al sorts of people 2. Theire antichristian vnlawfull ministerye 3 Theire false idolatrous maner of worshipping of God and of theire whole ministration both of the word and Sacraments c. 4. And theire popish antichristian order ecclesiasticall gouernmēt From all which seuerall heads infinite reasons may be drawne But because all these cannot be handled at once I will begyn with some one of them And as order requireth if it please you I will begin to shew that this people as they stand in these parishes in this confusion c. are not in this estate capable of the Sacramēts ministery of Christ. ANDR. Order requireth that you should rather begin to disproue owr ministerie first BAR. There must be sheepe before there be a flocke A flocke before there be a shepheard ANDR. A flocke a Shepheard are relatiues BAR. There must be a flocke before there can be a shepheard because the people must chuse the Pastor ANDR. That is a deuise of yours BAR. Will you call the Commandement of Christ my deuise HVTCH. Your whole proposition is denied proue that BAR. My proposition being so large I must begyn with some one part therof I will first therfore begin with the people of this parish BAR. Arg. 1. The people of this parish are a confuse companie of Infidells Idolatort ignorant prophane open vvicked Therfore no such communion to vvhich a Christian my ioyne in theire prayers sacraments in this estate ANDR. Infidells what Infidels Know you what Infidells are BAR. I take them to be vnbeleiuers such as haue no true faith ANDR. What because they haue no true faith therfore Infidells BAR. Yea because they haue no true faith therfore vnbeleeuers or Infidells HVTCH. We receaue no infidells into owr Church if you meane by Infidells 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without faith BAR. I meane by Infidells men without faith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 HVTCH. What know you what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is here it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 priuatiue BAR. And so I vnderstand it