Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	communion_n	guilty_a	schism_n	2,723	5	9.7530	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A56660	A friendly debate betwixt two neighbours, the one a conformist, the other a non-conformist about several weighty matters / published for the benefit of this city, by a lover of it, and of pure religion.; Friendly debate between a conformist and a non-conformist	Patrick, Simon, 1626-1707.; Wild, Robert, 1609-1679.	1668 (1668)	Wing P798; ESTC R41393	117,976	250

use of it N. C. Some think it is a sufficient cause to separate in that there are such sinful mixtures tolerated among you and that your Congregations are miscellaneous Companies of all Gatherings and all sorts are admitted even to Sacramental Communion C. That 's the very Objection which your Ministers and Elders saw framed against them by the Separatists And what they answer to them we return to you First That this Charge is not true the Rule of the Church of England being as full and strict for Church-Members that shall come to Communion as that of the Assembly there cited pag. 133. which is this That they must be visible Sainst such as being of age do profess Faith in Christ and obedience to Christ according to the Rules of Faith aud Life taught by Christ and his appostles Secondly Suppose there were some sinful Mixtures say they at our Sacraments yet we conceive this is not a sufficient ground of a Negative much less of a Positive Separation The Learned Author forementioned tells us that Corruption in Manners crept into a Church is not a sufficient cause of Separation from it This he proves from Math. 23.2 3. and he adds also this Reason for it Because in what Church soever there is Purity of Doctrine there God hath his Church though overwhelm'd with Scandals And therefore whosoever separates from such an Assembly separates from the place where God hath his Church which is rash and unwarrantable The Church of Corinth had such a profane Mixture at their Sacrament as we believe few if any of our Congregations can be charged withal and yet the Apostle doth not perswade the Godly party to separate much less to gather a Church out of a Church N. C. What do you tell me of the Doctrine of a Forreign Divine C. They have made it theirs by approving what he says in their Book And besides they tell you there were many Godly and Learned Non-conformists of the last Age that were perswaded in their Conscience they could not hold Communion with the Church of England in receiving the Sacrament kneeling without Sin yet did they not separate from her Indeed in that particular act they withdrew but yet so as that they held Communion with her in the rest being far from a Negative much more from a Positive Separation from her Nay some of them mind the words even then when our Churches were full of sinful Mixtures with great Zeal and Learning defended them so far as to write against those that did separate from them who these Good and Learned men were they tell you in the Margin Mr. Cartwright Mr. Dod Mr. Hildersham Mr. Bradshaw Mr. Ball. N. C. Then we shall communicate with men in their sin● and we must not be led to that by the greatest Examples C. To prevent that they will advise you that if any Brother offend you you are not to separate from him for this is not the way to gain but to destroy his Soul but to tell him of it privately and in an orderly way to bring it to the Church And when you have done your Duty you have freed your Soul and may safely and comfortably communicate in that Church without Sin N. C. I perceive you are read in our Writers And trely you have now told me so much from them that I shall not have so hard an opinion of you as I had before And I hope this will preserve me from being guilty of the sin of Schism because the Nature of that consists in an open breach of Christian Love C. This will not serve your turn but you must come and joyn in Communion with us again For they tell you that as he who denies a Fundamental Article of the Faith is guilty of Heresie though he add not Obstinacy thereto to make him an Heretick So he that doth unwarrantably separate from the true Church is truly guilty of Schism though he add not Uncharitableness thereunto to denominate him a compleat Schismatick You may read the words if you will pag. 137. And afterward they tell you that to make a Rupture in the Body of Christ and to divide Church from Church and to set up Church against Church and to gather Churches out of true Churches and because we differ in some things therefore to hold church-Church-Communion in nothing this we think hath no warrant out of the word of God and will introduce all manner of confusion in Churches and Families and not onely disturb but in a little time destroy the power of Godliness Purity of Religion Peace of Christians and set open a wide Gap to bring in Atheism Popery Heresie and all manner of wickedness Thus they And how fast all this is a doing by your means who now will have no Communion with us in any thing because we differ in some things is apparent to all the world For the love of God and of the Church nay of your own Families consider of it in time and repent that so they may not be brought to utter Confusion but the Gap may be stopt which you have opened too wide already to Atheism Irreligion and all the rest of the Wickedness which comes powring in it self upon us Do not continue that Separation any longer which you have rashly begun lest you be found guilty of that very thing your selves which you condemned so much in others and profess is by all good men to be abhorred Read what I have now said over and over again and seriously lay it to heart lest your own Books be opened at the day of Judgement and Sentence be pronounced against you out of them Nay desire your Ministers to read it and to expound the reason to you why they should ssparate now more than Mr. Dod Mr. Hildersham Mr. Ball and such like did heretofore Intreat them to let you know how they excuse thewselves from the guilt not only of withdrawing themselves from our Communion which they call Negative Schism but also of making an head against us and drawing themselves into a distinct and opposite Body and setting up a Church against a Church which they call Positive and Schism by way of Eminency Ask them which of the four Causes of Separation they alledge to make their Departures from us necessary What we have done that should make it unlawful for them to communicate with us or rather How we have separated our selves from Jesus Christ and made him disown us If they be not able to give you very good satisfaction in this and in all the rest I hope you see what you are to do according to their own Advice and Counsel N. C. I suppose they will say that they are persecuted which will justifie their separation C. I cannot imagine what they should pretend unless it be this But bid them shew you what hath befalen them that should deserve that name And likewise shew that the Persecution is grievous nay intolerable for else they have told you it will not warrant

by rightly representing them to the World They ought not to betray the Church wherein they live by a base and unworthy Silence Even the meanest Child of us ought to speak when you are about to kill our Mother Your long Nails wherewith you now scratch her Face must be shewn the people who see them not while they behold your hands lifted up to Heaven But besides these two there is a third sort between both who are dissatisfied only with a few things allow our Ministers to be good men and wish for Peace but yet for private respects hold fair correspondence with the Furies now named keep up the Separation hold Conventicles suffer the people without reproof to be fierce and violent against us connive at a great many of their false and absurd Opinions let them alone in their rude and insolent behaviour take not sufficient care to instruct them in the Truth to bring them to a modest and peaceable temper In short to qualifie them for Compliance with us Do not smile at the word for I can demonstrate it might soon be brought about if they pleased N. C. How I Pray Can you do more than all the men in the Kingdom C. Let them perswade their people but to be of their mind and the business is done N. C. Do you think they do not C. No I warrant you If they did the people would conform though they cannot For that which keeps this sort of Ministers from Conforming is not any thing to which the people are bound but something particularly required of them N. C. You have revealed a Secret to me C. It is easy for any body to find out that hath a mind to it There being nothing plainer than this that they would have read those prayers which I would have you hear if something else had not been in the way which you are not concerned in and that is renouncing the Covenant Let them then but perswade you to do all that they can do themselves and in order to that give you Reasons why it should be done and then I may hope to see you and I go to the same Church together And for them that do not stand upon the Covenant for there are some such they ha●… the greater reason to exhort you to come nay to come themselves and bring you along with them But lest they should not do their duty give me leave to speak to you in those very words which they have writ to others and if you think they have now any weight in them as I believe you once thought they had we shall not be long separated N. C. What have they writ C. In a Book call'd A Vindication of the Presbyterial Government c. You will find a speech of your Ministers and Elders in the Province of London to those that had left their Communion and stood in divided Congregations from them Which if it had any force then in your opinion ought to prevail with you now to come and joyn your self again to us whom you have forsaken I will cite you some Passages of it in their own words And let me begin with those which you find pag. 130. in a distinct Character as the strength I suppose of what they had to say If we be a Church of Christ and Christ hold Communion with us why do you separate from us If we be the Body of Christ do not they that separate from the Body separate from the Head also We are loath to speak any thing that may offend you yet we intreat you to consider that if the Apostle call those Divisions of the Church of Corinth wherein Christians did 〈◊〉 separate into divers formed Congregations of several Communion in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper Schisms 1 Cor. 1.10 may not your Secession from us and professing you cannot joyn with us as Members and setting up Congregations of another Communion be more properly called Schism Thus they plead for Unity and Uniformity in those dayes 1649. And we say the very same now Be just I beseech you and either pronounce that they had no reason on their side when they wrote those words or that we have reason too who use the same to you Hear also what they say a little after and think one of us speaks it to you You gather Churches out of our Churches and you set up Churches in an opposite way to our Churches and all this you do voluntarily and unwarrantably not having any sufficient cause for it For you acknowledge us to be the true Churches of Jesus Christ and Churches with which Christ holds Communion This I dare say is the Judgment of every true Fresbyterian that the Church of England is a true Member of Christ's Body and that Christ holds Communion with her and hath not cut her off because of any Ceremonies she uses from him the Head of the Church If so consider I beseech you as they intreat their Brethren of the Separation How dare you refuse to hold Communion with those whom Christ Jesus holds Communion withall How can you with a safe Conscience thus separate your selves from those who are not separated from Christ Is it nothing to make a Schism in his Body Do you not rend your selves from him when you thus rend your selves from it Think seriously on it before you sleep that you may at least in purpose and resolution presently unite your self to us from whom you have departed N. C. But I am told that every Separation is not a Schism C. To this they answer in that Book and pray mind it The godly Learned say that every unjust and rash Separation from a true Church that is when there is no just or at least no sufficient cause of the Separation is a Schism And that there is a negative and a positive Schism The former is when men do peaceably and quietly draw from Communion with a Church not making a head against that Church from which they are departed The other is when persons so withdrawing do consociate and withdraw themselves into a distinct and opposite Body setting up a Church against a Church which let me tell you by the way is your Case my good Neighbour which Camero calls a Schism by way of eminency and farther tells us there are four Causes that make a separation from a Church lawful First when they that separate are grievously and intolerably persecuted Secondly when the Church they separate from is Heretical Thirdly when it is Idolatrous Fourthly when it is the Seat of Antichrist And where none of these four are found there the Separation is insufficient and Schism Now we are fully assured that none of these four Causes can be justly charged upon our Congregations therefore you must not be displeased with us but with your selves if we blame you as guilty of positive Schism What say you now my Neighbour Was this good Doctrine then or no If it was it is so still and I beseech you make good

that among other abominable Errors and damnable Heresies as they are called pag. 4. this is condemn'd for one pag. 22. That little can be done unless Liberty of Conscience be allowed for every man and sort of men to worship God in that way and perform the Ordinances of Christ in that manner as shall appear to them most agreeable to God's Word c. This among others they call a horrid and prodigious Opinion and tell us pag. 32. and 33. that it will lay the glory of the most high God in the dust if it take place and raze the Truth of Christ to the ground and overthrow all Christ's Ordinances and together therewith Magistrates and Ministers and all Religious and comely Order c. In short they say we shall be disown'd by all Reformed Churches who will cry out Is this England who covenanted to extirpate Popery Prelacy Superstition Schism c and after so long travel hath she nom b●ought forth an hidious Monster of Toleration N. C. I know all this as well as you can tell me and they are of the same mind still for this was writ onely against an Vniversal Toleration of all Sects which they abhorr C. I can tell you another story They would not so much as tolerate five poor men who professed to agree with them in all matters of Doctrine Judge then what their Opinions were about Liberty when they would not allow it to so few dissenting Brethren N. C. That was a great while ago and most of those streight-lac'd men are dead C. No such matter But if they were their Principles did not die with them but survived in their followers And yet now all on a sudden they are vanish'd Now they are for Liberty of Conscience By which if they mean onely a Liberty for themselves let them speak out that all their Brethren of the Separation may hear them And withal let them acquaint us by what Title they claim this Favour more than the rest of the Sects that are sprung from them who might take the liberty to separate from them as well as they take the Liberty to seperate from us And before they prove that it is due to them let them first answer their own Argument against the Independents which I can shew them in a Letter of the London Ministers to the Assembly of Divine which was this That to grant a Toleration to them and not to other Sectaries will be counted Injustices N. C. I perceive you are of a persecuting spirit C. You rather discover your self of a turbulent spirit which cannot forbear to trouble and confound even our discourse For that is not the business whether all Restraint of mens liberty be Persecution nor whether I am for it or no but to shew you that once your Ministers were of such a spirit as you call persecuting and now are not N. C. Then they are changed for the better C. You should have said Then they are chang'd which was the thing we were speaking of whether for the better or no that 's another question And let them if you please resolve it I believe they will not confess they were of a persecuting spirit when they were against the Liberty which they now claim N. C. What do you make them of no Principles at all C. Do not mistake me so They are constant to some Principles particularly this That all is well done that they do though quite contrary to what they did before N. C. You are bitter C. Do you like this Principle better which they will not forsake I warrant you That they are in God's way and therefore ought to be tolerated whereas all others are our of his way and therefore ought not to be tolerated N. C. You much offend me by these Reflections C. I 'll tell you another then that 's more moderate and will please you better That they must by all means keep you from coming to Church for fear you should see that you may be as well taught elsewhere as in their private Meetings N. C. I told you before there is no danger of that C. But you told me no Reason as I have shewn you that 's worth any thing N. C. We have one that will never suffer us to come to Church more as long as your Ministers are there C. What terrible Scare-crow should that that be N. C. To tell you the truth many of us do not think that they are Ministers C. Now you have revealed the Bottom of your heart Pardon me that sudden conclusion you may have more yet lurking behind which you have not told me I should rather have said Now you have revealed your Unskilfulness more than ever For what have any of yours to qualifie them for the Ministry which ours have not as well as they If you require the inward motions of the Spirit of God inclining a man to devote himself to this work which some of you think is enough this ours profess to have felt as you may see in the Form of ordering Priests If it be further necessary to be approved by Presbyters and to have their hands laid on them this is not wanting to ours as you may there also be satisfied N. C. But the Bishop layes on his hands also C. And can this unhallow them when they are so dedicated to God N. C. Yes so I am told C. Then you would sooner believe what one of your own Party says without any reason than what we say with all the reason in the world which is plainly partial affection N. C. Why so C. Is it not apparent that a Bishop is a Presbyter too though we think him more N. C. You acknowledge a distinction of persons in the Church which is Antichristian C. Nay then I have done with you You condemn all the ancient Church of Antichristianism and more than that the very Apostles themselves and the Evangelists who it is manifest had some Superiority over their brethren But observe whither you are run having once left your way You mix the very dregs of all other Sects with your own and believe any thing that makes against us even such things as the Minister you commonly hear would be asham'd to say First you onely disliked the Common Prayer then you did not love the man that read it next you would not come to hear him and now you will not allow him to be a Minister nay rather than suffer him to enjoy that name you will venture to deprive Apostolical men of their Office who exercised an Authority over their brethren N. C. Suppose they did yet they were not Lords C. No nor do we ordain any Lords when we make Bishops That 's an Honour which the King doth them to qualifie them to sit in Parliament and advise about the Affairs of the Realm in which they are as much concern'd as other men N. C. If their Lordships would preach more perhaps we might like them better C. I doubt not For those that do

not know them perhaps you would admire them above most of your own N. C. Then I should conclude they had the Gift of Prayer but suppress it C. So they have but it is both in you and us onely a Natural gift or acquir'd by Exercise and Practise and Imitation N. C. Now you speak prophanely C. I speak the sense of the soberest of your own Party as I verily believe who would say the same if they durst but deal plainly with you And as simple as I am I dare undertake to justifie the truth of what I say against any of them if they have the face to contradict it N. C. I see you leave the Spirit of God nothing to do in our Prayers C. Would you would see how you forget your self Did I not tell you what the Spirit of Prayer was how that God bestows it upon us when he gives us a sense of himself and of our needs and stirs up in us holy desires and passionate longings after his Righteousness which we should express in such words as are becoming that Majesty with whom we have to do And this is the reason that we take care to chuse our words and not leave them to extemporary invention especially in the publick Service of God N. C. Do you think they will ever want Words whose hearts are full of Desires or can great Affections ever fail to furnish us with plenty of Language C. Yes that they may For all experience tells us that very great and high Affections are too big for Words and make a man at a stand for want of Expressions which no man sure will think a seemly thing in a publick Congregation And the passions of Admiration and Reverence of God restrain a mans forwardness of speaking to him and make him like a few words best which he is not then in a fit case to invent A● for lesser Affections and superficial Heats I grant they seldom let a man want words if he have tolerable Parts and make him speak more readily than he would do at another time yet they are not able ever to furnish him with those that are fit proper and decent Which methinks should make you not quarrel with a sober form of words at least in our publick Devotions N. C. Would you could perswade me that a Form of words is lawful to be used it would go a great way to perswade me to come to your Church C. Strange that you should be so inapprehensive It is so lawful to use a Form of words that I have shewn you it is in a sort necessary that is we can have no security that the Service of God will always be performed well without one N.C. I confess I do not yet apprehend you C. Observe then I say the best of men though their hearts be full of good desires may from some cause or other want such words as are fit and proper to express their meaning In this case they must hack in an unseemly manner or make a stop or use such words as are too rude and slovenly or speak broken and imperfect language or at the best such as is too hard and obscure and unintelligible by the Vulgar None of which things are to be permitted in the publick Worship which ought to be performed with the greatest solemnity and gravity And therefore to prevent that Undecency and secure the Service of God from all that is unhandsome you must consent to a prescribed Form of words wherein men shall address their humble and hearty Desires to him For though some men at some times may pray well enough yet other men and the same men at other times may be very confused and full of Tautologies and it 's well if they endeavour not to supply these defects with rude Clamours brutish Noises and a deal of the Holy Scriptures wofully misapplied Beside how can you persuade any strangers to be of our Church or to hold any Communion with us if they do not know how we worship God And how should they know that unless you can produce something which by a general consent is own'd for his Service This no doubt is one reason why all Churches in the world have had their publick Forms of Prayer that they may let every body know how God is served by them and why the best men in Reformed Churches have wished those happy days might come of amity and friendship that they might by a Common Counsel and Consent form a certain Liturgy which might be as a Symbol and Bond of Concord among them all And truly I cannot advise how your Ministers can justifie themselves in separating now from all the Reformed Churches as well as ours with whom they covenanted to maintain an Uniformity not onely in Doctrine and Discipline but Worship also To me they seem to live in an open breach of one branch of that Covenant of which they are so tender For they do not endeavour in their place and calling to reform according to the example of those Churches N. C. What should they reform now they have no power C. Themselves and their Congregations which they take the boldness to gather who ought to serve God according to the Covenant after the example of the best Reformed Churches all of which have an Order and Form of Prayer and never imagin'd that those written Forms did bind up and stint the Spirit This is a peculiar phansie of your own who have no Form at all in any of your Conventicles or Meetings though it is in the power of your Ministers to have one as well as to hold such Meetings and though they be bound by their League and Covenant to do their endeavor to imitate those that have Nay I much question whether they use the Lord's Prayer They that do I believe have the least company such is the prejudice which they contrary to their Covenant have sowen in peoples minds against Forms of Prayer even that of the Lord's Which thing considered it makes me astonish'd at your impudence in pretending such niceness of Conscience and fear to break your Covenant when you break it every time you meet together without some Form of Divine Service N. C. They onely covenanted to reform this Church of England according to the example of the best Reformed Churches which they cannot do C. Onely do you say Is that a less thing then to reform a particular Congregation Methinks they should think themselves obliged to do what they can when they cannot do what they would and to do that in a part which they cannot do in the whole that is bring in some Form of Prayer into your Churches for so no doubt you esteem them N. C. I do not think they can if they would C. Why N.C. Because most of us think Forms unlawfull C. That 's their fault who either taught you to believe so heretofore or do not instruct you now to believe otherwise Though it were a very casie thing for them to do