Linguistic DNA - Concept Modelling Demonstrator

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	common_a	frame_v	great_a	77	3	2.1335	3	false

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A18081	The rest of the second replie of Thomas Cartvurihgt [sic]: agaynst Master Doctor Vuhitgifts second ansvuer, touching the Church discipline	Cartwright, Thomas, 1535-1603.	1577 (1577)	STC 4715; ESTC S107571	215,200	286

beleue left by tradition here yow bear vs in hand of commandementes I know not how many written not necessary to be obserued but onely to last for a tyme yf vnwritten traditions be perpetual and written coÌ„mandementes be not what wanteth to the vtter banishment of al truth and setling of al falshood in the church of god For as yow may except against this so may other against any commandement of the Apostles whereas the autority of god in them once being shewed ether men owght to shew some place wherby that is called bak or els let yt stand in that autority it was first set in of the lord To that I alledged that god is present in his church vuith the riches of his spirit in knovuledg vuisdome c. and especially vuith those lavufully called vnto office coÌ„firming it by the exaÌ„ple of Saul he answereth the church is sometime withowt good Pastor or good gouernour as in Elias tyme which is vntrue for there were a hundreth prophetes kept of one man alone Then he saith that it is Anabaptistical vpon a miraculous change and that of one to make a general rule But yt is his great faut not to know that the miracles wrought vpon certein haue a general doctrine and serue to the confirmation of our faith in al our necessities As the feeding of the people of god in the desert with man c. serueth to this that althowgh the ordinary meanes of norishment fail yet that the lord wil otherwise prouide for vs the feeding of the people in the desert by our Sau. Christ to this that those which seek the kingdome of heauen shal haue al other thinges cast vnto them Yf I had giuen hope of the assistance of god in thinges taken in hand withowt a calling or in a calling withowt vsing the lawful meanes which god putteth in our handes then yt had bene Anabaptistical but to assure the church of the assistance of god in goeing abowt that which I hould for commanded of hym when yt assaieth al lawful meanes it can ys more skilful diuinity then yow can stayn with al the skil yow haue I could haue browght other examples of Dauid Salomon c. but that one of Saul was more pressing the force whereof noted by me yow clean pas by Nether hath the lord doen this in certain particular persons but generally in his whole church For when he would make his tabernacle which was a figure of the church he commanded an exquisite workmanship in yt where albeit there was nothing more gros and rude then the Israelites as those which had bene many yeares houlden in vile slauery occupied in clay and dirt and al other kinde of drudgery yet the lord gaue numbers of such dexterity in working al kinde of broidery and riche workes as if they had bene browght vp in al liberal exercise and norished as Princes children Moreouer when as the lord furnished vnto the church vnder the law able men for this function notwithstanding he vsed not that larges toward yt which he doeth now towards vs they are to iniurious vnto the grace of god towardes the church now which vnder pretence of want of able men would driue this order owt of yt In the city of Athenes as Tertullian reporteth children spake vuhen they vuere but a moneth ould and shal we think that in Ierusalem which the lord wil haue to be the beauty of the world and which he hath set vpon a stage that in yt he might as it were make a shew of al his riches shal we think I say that men of 30 and 40 yeares shal be al such babes that they shal not be able to giue any iudgment of the lawes of that city whereof they haue bene so long Burgesses Ad also that yow to giue the Pastor a pasport to be away from his charge say that there may be diuers found in his absence able to answer al the dowtes that a dowtful and turmoiled conscience can minister which verely althowgh it be not the same yet is a rarer gift then is necessarily required of an Elder of the church such as we require To that I alledged that the common vuealth gouernment must be framed vnto the church and not the church gouernment vnto the common vuealth as the hanginges to the hovus and not the hous to the hanginges he answereth as thowgh I had ment that the form of the gouernment must be changed and made the same with the form of the church gouernment which is an open wresting of my wordes seing al know that to be framed according to another thing is not al one as to be made the same with yt oneles he that commandeth his hanginges to be framed to his how 's commandeth that his how 's and hanginges should be made the same or that the Master which biddeth his seruant frame him self to him biddeth hym to giue commandement for commandemeÌ„t chek for chek blow for blow Therfore my meaning could not be such but it was as it is which I also expounded in the example of the Prince the principal part of the common wealth that if there vuere any custome prerogatiue or pomp in the common vuealth before the Prince ioyned him self to the church contrary to the order of a church vuel established that that should be corrected And if I had had any such meaning as he surmiseth yet our common wealth could haue receiued no such change by this considering that I had boeth declared my liking of yt and shewed how the form thereof resembleth the form of the church gouernment wherby also appeareth what a shameful slaunder it is which he surmiseth of me that I would haue Princes throw down their crownes before the Seniors of the church c. which I precisely preuented with plain wordes because I knw with whom I had to doe Albeit that Princes should be excepted froÌ„ ecclesiastical discipline and namely from excommunication as he here and otherwhere signifieth I vtterly mislike Now he hath left the point of his slaunderous speach in me in his answer to my argumentes as a bee which hath lost her sting he is altogither vnprofitable For vnto the similitude of the how 's and hanginges he saith that it proueth yt not but reason he sheweth none vnto that also that the church vuas before the common vuealth and therfore that yt should serue the church and not the church yt he saith the argument foloweth not but he saith yt onely whereas if the church and commoÌ„ wealth were otherwise equal which can not be one onely respecting the lyfe to come the other the coÌ„modityes of this lyfe yet hauing this preeminence aboue yt that it was before yt it must needes be better then yt and consequently owght rather to be serued of yt then to serue yt the Apostle also vseth the same reason to proue that the woman is subiect to the man. To that I alledged that the

church is the foundatioÌ„ of the vuorld and therfore the common wealth builded vpon yt must be framed vnto yt he saith that yt is obscure c. But it is for waÌ„t of light in hym self for otherwise the thing is clear And to leau Salomons prouerb which Rabbi Leui Ben Gerson doeth so interpret and whereof in deed the sens may wel be that where the wicked are caried away with the tempest the iust not onely stand fast but be the cause why the world standeth I say to leau that S. Peter playnly confirmeth that the cause why this world endureth is for that the ful number of the elect is not yet gathered so that as sone as they are assembled by the ministery of the church there shal be forthwith an end of the world As for that he bringeth against this yt is vnworthy the rehersal for of the thre first he can conclude nothing and his last answer is no better For yt talketh of a change of that which is laid vpon the foundatioÌ„ wherunto the common wealth is likened and is that which I affirm but of changing the foundation wherunto the church is compared not a word the two next diuisions be answered Here he presseth that which he inferreth of the Admo â–ª that if the rule of moe in the church be better then of one because it is easier to turn one then a company from truth and equity it should therfore folow that the moe that gouern the better it should be which he hath now mended by putting for moe moe good men nothwithstaÌ„ding that this also is but sophistry For by the same form of reasoning it should folow that because two bittes of meat norish more theÌ„ one therfore the more a maÌ„ eateth the more he shal be norished he should therefore vnderstand that as there is in this gouernment a defect so there is an exces and betwene boeth a mean vuhich is to be houlden and that as the comodity of hauing the church iudgmentes handled by a company is to be sowght after so the inconuenience and confusion of assembling a great multitude for euery ecclesiastical case that may befal is to be avoided Beside that it is not enowgh that they which should gouern be good meÌ„ oneles they be of greater counsail and iudgment then the rest of the body of which sort when he wil not affourd vs any iust numbre he might wel haue spared this obiection Yf it were greatly to the matter it were easy to shew moe lavuful formes of common vuealths theÌ„ three Likewise that althowgh commoÌ„ wealthes haue their names of that which beareth the cheif sway yet that they are to their profit teÌ„pered and mixed one with another singularly the monarchy This is to be seen namely in our land where to the passing of diuers thinges the consent of the ParliameÌ„t is so required as that withowt yt those matters can not pas The next is already partly and partly commeth after to be answered Here he denieth most shamefully that he alledged Ambrose to proue that Seniors owght not to be vnder a Christian Prince For boeth the sentence immediatly going before and folowing after driue thereunto yea and that he affirmeth vpon confideÌ„ce of Ambrose saying onely for other proof he hath not It is therfore to great bouldnes that he asketh me why I gathered the tyme betwene Phillip and Ambrose Then he denieth that the Eldership florished in Constantines tyme but he is much to blame For the Centuries wherin he hath bene raking so often must needes haue tould hym that the same orders and functions of the church were in that tyme which were before And it is manifest that the churches were gouerned vnder hym as before by Bishops Elders and Deacons by that which is recited of an infinite number of Elders and Deacons vuhich came to the Councel of Nice vuith the 250 Bishops moreouer yt being before declared and in part confessed by him that this gouernment was before Constantines tyme if he be not able to shew that Constantin changed yt the same must be presumed After not denying but that it might be vnder some Christian Prince he saith that it is not the question whether it may be but whether it owght to be which how vntrue it is let the reader iudg of that I haue before noted To Ierom that saith that the Christian church hath her Eldership he answereth they were Ministers of the word and Sacramentes his reason because they were such as S. Paul speaketh of vnto Timothe maketh for vs which haue shewed that S. Paul speaketh there of Elders that gouern onely which may be better vnderstanded in that Ierom compareth them with the Eldership of the Iues which was as hath b appeared a seueral order from the Priestes and Scribes that interpreted the law and offered the sacrifices Duarenus also helpeth him not rather he maketh against him For in that he saith that the Canons succeded into the place of the Elders he declareth that the Canons are of another order then they were As when Ierome saith that the Bishops succeded vnto the Apostles he meaneth not that the Bishops are of the same degre and order of ministery with the Apostles the next I leau to the readers iudgment Vnto Ambrose he answereth yf he misliked the abrogating of this Seignory why did he not labour to restore yt That he misliked yt is manifest when he condemneth the Ministers of the vuord of negligence for suffering it to vuear ovut of the church or rather of pride vuhilest they onely vuould seme to be some vuhat he labored also in part to restore yt in that he reprehended the abolishing of yt whether he did further labour or no is not expressed the best is to be supposed which is that to his power he endeuored to set in that the want whereof he condemneth But Ambrose was no lord Bishop that he could doe in the church whatsoeuer he desired his extreme bouldnes in denying that ether he was abused or would haue abused other let the reader iudg of also in that he saith Ambrose maketh nothing for our cause to whose iudgmeÌ„t I also leau the next diuision Yf he denie that church officers which haÌ„dle church matters and vuatch ouer the sovules of meÌ„ be ecclesiastical officers then let hym deny also that two and two make fower But so gentilmen and handycraftes meÌ„ should be ecclesiastical persons why not if they be chosen thereto were S. Paul and Isay the Prophet no ecclesiastical persons because one was a Tentmaker the other of the kinges stok Nether occupations nor dignities haue any such mark of vncleannes or profanation that they may not be coupled with the church ministery when the ministery is such as togither with their professions they may also execute yt in which kinde is the Eldership of the church I omit that the D. hath here patched togither a sentence of M. Caluin before

answered and another of M. Beza which in that sens he pretendeth them are quite contrary one to another yt is therfore meruail if he can make of them one vniform and euen answer Now he hath ranged and roued almost in this whole disputation he must haue leau to run bak the way he came to see whether he hath let any of his peeces fal And first good reader he dasheth the in the face with two open vntruthes in the forehead of this chapter For the order of the church propounded by vs is vniform and standing as it is left vs in the word of god and not as he surmiseth varying according to the numbre of the churches Also for ceremonies variable by circunstance it is frankly confessed that they owght to be determyned of by aduise of the church Synod assembled especially of the flower and most sufficient of the ecclestical gouernours sent by consent of the rest if al as yt happeneth can not be coueniently there Secondly it is nether affirmed nor euer practised in any church where this order is or hath bene vsed that he that is chosen may not refuse yt So that if there be any that thinketh his honour stayned in being ioyned in counsail of church matters with poor men when there ether are not or are not enow of others he hath not to complain seing he is at his choise Albeit if any man should be so myneded to think skorn to hear the sentence of a poor man in that he is a poor maÌ„ let the same know that he reprocheth god that made hym poor And if he be lawfully appointed to this office theÌ„ he doeth not disdain the man but Christ hym self Therfore if he haue any fear of god before his eyes he wil from hence forth be ashamed to vse this for a reason Beside that he thus ouerthroweth the high court of Parliament where with the nobility are ioyned in consultation the commons of the Realm where also the estates being vnequal the voices notwithstanding are equal I omit how that if there were any inconuenience in this that the sentence of the Pastor and other not so rich or so noble should weigh down the sentence of that noble man he speaketh of yet him self hath deliuered vs of yt which telleth vs that the lord of the town or some other of countenance wil lead away the rest of the church how much more then shal he be able to lead away two or thre Thus he plaieth on boeth handes for there he pincheth at the nobility and here he pretendeth as if he were tender ouer their honour His third reason is answered before likewise his fourth his fift his sixt and a seueÌ„th As for the eight of partial affectioÌ„ and contentions which would ensue it is plentifully answered in the question of the church election For if these be friuolous reasons against those ecclehastical actions where the whole church hath interest much more are they against the assemblies of thre or fower onely and those of the choisest the ninth is also answered The tenth that it would be to great extremity to punish for one faut twise is a fals principle taken from the Pelagian herefy For the Magistrate may appoint fower kinde of punishmeÌ„tes for one faut if he think good to be executed at diuers tymes so that they altogither and ioyntly exceed not the quantity of the faut And by his reason the Magistrate shal be shut owt from his right of punishyng syn if it fal owt that the lord by some punishment laid vpon the offender preuent the Magistrates punishment especially when the punishment is in such sort that it may appear that yt was sent for that special faut for examples sake if of dronkennes he fal into some siknes na thus the lordes sword is wrung owt of his hand For nether may he punish those fautes which the Magistrate punished before and if he punish a man in this life he hath bound his handes for punishing him in the world to come For in deed the church discipline is the punishment or rather the correction of the lord in a far other kinde and to an other end then the ciuil punishment But I haue shewed that boeth these were practised amongest the people of god for one and the same faut And is not this in the Apostles to condemn the holy gost him self For if it be true which he saith when one had stollen or committed adultery it had not bene lawful for them to haue vsed the ecclesiastical censure least the offender being after apprehended and punished according to the lawes of the common wealth where he liued should thereby haue bene wronged Beside that the D. accuseth al our Bishops which for diuers causes punishable by the lawes of the Realm send forth their excommunications yea al the elder churches which did not leau to proceed in ecclesiastical censures against those whom the heathen Princes had iustly punished But hereof the reader may know further in M. Caluins institutions also in M. Bucer who praecisely coÌ„futeth them which say that the punishment by the ciuil Magistrate is sufficient His eleuenth that alterations are dangerous is vnworthy answer For when yt hath bene shewed that ceremonies otherwise in different owght when they breed offence to be changed how much more owght those to be chaÌ„ged which are shewed to be coÌ„trary to the institutioÌ„ of god And nether this nor the next clause in thys eleueÌ„th article nor diuers other allegatioÌ„s in this chapter haue so much as a countenaÌ„ce of reason vnles it be first graunted vnto the D. which is the principal questioÌ„ that is to fay that the Eldership of the church is not coÌ„maunded of the lord his two other reasons in this article are boeth often repeated and vtterly vntrue there hauing bene neuer any ChristiaÌ„ Prince that vsed the spiritual sword which onely is giueÌ„ to the Eldership nether any noble maÌ„ or gentilmaÌ„ which in our laÌ„d vseth this kinde of correction but onely the Bishop which vsurpeth yt and abuseth yt I omit his often iesting at the Pastor by calling him diuers tymes in contempt Master Pastor which the Angels them selues dare not doe when as him self can not deny but to haue a Pastor in euery coÌ„gregation is the ordinance of god If men wil not look to such disorders I dowt not but the lord wil lay to his hand The first reason to proue no certeyn kinde of church gouernmeÌ„t apointed is answered before likewise the second and third the fourth is a gros asking of that in question In the fift M. Caluins and M. Bezas first and last sentences are violently drawen from their meaning as hath bene shewed The middle sentence beareth no such argument as he would gather for there is no word that shutteth owt the necessity of the Eldership vnder a Christian Magistrate no or that maketh it so much

as les necessary vnder a Christian Magistrate then vnder persecution For the word especially is restrayned vnto the gouernment which the Bishop had ouer the Elders so that if there be any thing to be gathered of that it is this that the Bishop should not haue so much preheminence ouer the Eldership when ther is a Christian Magistrate as when there was not And how doeth not he blush to alledg mens sentences directly contrary to their iudgmentes playnly declared in this matter of the Eldership which counteth yt such a faut to set one writer against another I omit other places owt of M. Beza where this cause is confirmed boeth generally in the vnuariable gouernment of the church and particularly in this case of the Eldership The reasons alledged of M. Musculus and Gualter haue bene answered His sixt reason of giuing no more here to the Christian Magistrate then to Nero is but onely said the vntruth wherof shal appear in place Seing therefore the lord hym self hath once set this gouernment by Elders in the church and that no man may displace which he hath placed seing yt is a supply of that in the church which the most sufficient and most diligent ministery of the word is not able to perform by yt self alone seing the churches vnder the law and in the Apostles tymes could not want this help and seing the antiquity which folowed for diuers hundred yeares partly held the same partly lamented the want of yt and partly left markes and footinges whereby being lost yt might be recouered again seing further the liberality of god towardes the church is commended in that for the greater safety of yt he would haue many watchmen of one church Lastly seing the Apostel in the person of Timothe chargeth most straitly al the Ministers of the word with the keping of this order vntil the appearing of our Sa. Christ let vs conclude that the Eldership ordeined for the gouernment of the church onely is the perpetual and vnchangable decree of god and therefore not onely in comon wealthes where many but also in Monarchies where one gouerneth not onely in time of perseqution but also in time of peace to be reteyned Again forsomuch as the Apostel ordeined thes Elders church by church forasmuch as giuing a rule of the gouernment of al aswel of churches in the countrey as in the City he inioyned the praeseruation of this order forasmuch also as the gospel whereof this is a part brake forth owt of Ierusalem into al places not into cities onely and for that the Pastor of an vplandish town is no more able to doe al that is to be doen in his church then the Pastors in the city considering also that the churches as dawghters and coheirs of one father and mother owght to enioy like priuileges seing further the Bishop to whome this Eldership is assistant hath bene shewed to belong aswel to churches in the country as in the city finally forasmuch as the vse boeth of he churches vnder the law and of those after the Apostels tymes lead vs hereuÌ„to yt is likewise browght to pas that this Eldership owght to be in al churches not in those onely which are planted in great cities Thus is also ended the question of Cathedral churches whereof the D. hath made a whole tractate wherein there appeareth scarce a step of this institution of god of which when he would brag of and set the highest price he hath valued twelue of the best of them at no more then one poor halin Cambridg or Oxford is able to yeeld yea then they were at Queen Maries tyme when there vuere commonly in euery one some vuhich dissembling for fear vuere not vuithstanding able to confute al Papistes Anabaptistes whereunto he can answer nothing That the offices came from the bottomles pit of hel may partly appear by that which I haue alledged partly in that the names of Prebendaries c. are not to be found in any godly or pure writer but in the dregges of the canon law For further vnderstanding of which disorders I refer the reader to that which M. Caluin writeth of them who peinteth them owt in their colours And where I shewed that to look for any good vnto the church in the Popes inuention is to look to be fed vuith the Cockatrice egges and to be clad vuith the spiders vueb he answereth that the Pope as the Ethnickes may make good lawes which is vntrue in matters belonging to the church especially in so great a matter as the appointing of an office I wil not denie but they may deuise good lawes for the commodity of this life but yt can not be shewed that euer the lordes people fetched their lawes to gouern the church by from the heathen much les from the Pope which is the head of the heathen Therefore al may see what a singuler profit boeth the church and common wealth should haue if they were conuerted into Colledges for the bringing vp of scholers which they would yeeld as I think in greater numbre then boeth the vniuersities doe now with furniture of professions in al good knowledg where now they serue but for the fatting vp of a few and those ether vnworthy to be norished of the Almes of the church or els whose presence is necessary in other places and dutiful by reason of pastoral residence wherein as wel against theirs as against our vniuersitie mens non residence I refer the reader to the special tractate thereof That they should serue for rewardes to those which haue spent much tyme in getting learning is but to fome at the mouth that which is a shame once to conceiue in the minde considering that by reward he vnderstandeth not the honest and sufficient prouision for his competent how should and conuenient hospitality for the poor which is confessed most due but meaneth some surplice beside this which is before coÌ„futed Nether is any good to be hoped from them whome the excellency of this office before Angels and men doeth not content to whom the fruit which they shal receiue dayly in that by their ministery god is glorified and men are saued doeth not satisfy finally to whom the special crown of glory which remayneth theÌ„ in the lyfe to come with sufficient prouision for this present lyfe doeth not make the ministery sauory vnles it be also sauced with these inticementes of wordly wealth and dignity So that this is rather a lure to draw hyrelinges into the church then an honest prouocation to cal in faithful Pastors Hereunto commeth the example of other churches which haue pulled them down and conuerted them to other vses which the D. partly denieth partly maketh no great account of That they were pulled down the experience teacheth at the least of as many as I haue ether seen or could vnderstand of And yt is namely recorded of the church of Zurik yea of al of them M. Caluin teacheth that

the prebendes c. ovught to be called to a more lavuful vse namely to the fineding of Scholers Ministers and Poor And this is our meaning not that these goodes should be turned from the possession of the church to the filling of the bottomles sackes of their gredy appetites which yane after this pray and would therby to their perpetual shame purchase them selues a field of blud which thing althowgh we haue giuen playnly to vnderstand yet because we haue to doe with so importunat an aduersary that feareth not to charge vs with intent to gratifye such Cormorantes I thowght good in a word to protest yt As for the light account he maketh of those examples of the reformed churches which notwithstanding pretendeth to esteme so greatly of one or two of the auncient writers I leau to vtter what yt argueth oneles he were able to shew by the word of god that they did not wel The rest of this tractate which is a cartlode of vntruthes vttered partly in accusing me partly in maynteyning him self I wil not touch THAT EXCOMMVNICATION BELONGETH NOT TO THE Bishop alone Tractate ix and xviij according to the D. pag. 661. YT hauing bene shewed that in elections and depositions the Bishop can doe nothing withowt the aduise of the whole church nor in the common gouernmeÌ„t withowt assistance of the Eldership yt must folow that in excommunication which is one of the weightiest iudgmentes in the church this sole autoritie of the Bishop is vnlawful For as when in ciuil matters the iudgment is of life and death and as in the art of curing when consultation is taken of cutting or burning the bench is fuller and the assistance greater then when matters of les importance be debated euen so if it might be accorded to the Bishop to pas some other matters by him self yet it were not safe to coÌ„mit vnto him the iudgment of excommunication wherevpon I mervail why euen here also yow goe abowt to pek owt our eys For the light of this truth is such that some of the Papistes them selues are ashamed to look against yt as appeareth by Pigghius which seeking al maner of peintynges to hyde the filthines of Rome could finde no colour to disguise this with but is fayn partly to confes her nakednes in this behalf saiyng that it is not lavuful the Bishop of Rome onely excepted for any Bishop to excommunicate by him self alone So that althowgh the weightines of the cause might require a long treatis yet the plaines of it wil be content with a short First whether the word discipline may note the vuhole gouernment or onely the punishmentes as in a disputation of wwordes I wil not striue althowgh it be knowen that the word discipline is vsed in good autors for the whole maner of gouernment ether at home or in war. Secondly charged vuith coÌ„trarietie he answereth that to ascribe excommunicatioÌ„ to the Minister of the word and to the Bishop onely agree because the Bishop is a Minister of the word which might haue bene admitted if it had bene al one to be a Bishop and a Minister of the word But seing by the word Minister with vs is noted a diuers degree and meinteined by him it is but an escape Howbeit I am content he amend his speach if he had yet amended it and not rather vtterly marred al. For pretending that the Bishop onely hath by the word of god the excoÌ„munication committed vnto him he saith notwithstanding that the church if she wil may commit that autoritie vnto other giuig the church autority to make that common which the word of god hath made seueral Thus he enterfeereth at euery step almost cutting him self to pitifully The rest is answered so are the two next diuisions sauing that it appeareth that yow were somewhat hongry of a testimony of great reading which pres myne so sore that may be giuen to the veriest trewand that euer went on two legges which may in half an hower know the minde of twenty commentaries and requireth rather a man wel booked then ether wel red or wel learned To proue that the lord did not borow this form of gouernment of the Iues he assigneth one reason because he neuer appointed it vnto them which beside the vntruth that hath and shal further appear is contrary to that him self hath affirmed where he saith that al euen the least thinges vnder the law were commaunded So that oneles he wil denie that they had euer any Eldership or hauing it had it against the commaÌ„dement of god it must folow that they had it by the prescript of god Another reason is for that the Iues abused their Eldership then which there can be nothing more disagreing from the D. whole cours of defence which wil not haue so much as a peeld ceremony remoued for the abuse Vnto the reason I alledged why the word Councel in S. Mathew is taken for the Eldership of the church he answereth nothing wherunto ad that in other places of the new Testament where it is oft mentioned it is alwaies so taken The testimonies he citeth are partly to no purpose partly before confessed of me This is a wonderful bouldnes that yow dare say yea and glory in yt that S. Paul kept an other order of excommunication then our Sau. Christ commanded considering that he autoriseth his doeinges in the church of Corinth with this that he gaue that vuhich he receiued who also in this very particular case of the incestuous man alledgeth the autoritie of our Sauiour Christ. That owt of M. Caluin maketh against him manifestly For vpon the places boeth of S. Mathew and Paul he sheweth that the church hath interest in the excommunication onely he noteth that our Sa. Christ applied his form of speach to the estate of the church then which is nothing to our purpose After vpon confidence of M. Caluins autority onely he triumpheth vpon the interpretation I browght of the purging of leuain noting the thrusting ovut of the incestuous person which notwithstaÌ„ding is proued for as much as that vers is the conclusion of that before where by leuain caÌ„ not be denied but the incestuous person is noted vnles we wil say that the Apostle concluded another thing then that which he had before mentioned M Beza also comming after M. Caluin and not easely dissenting from him foloweth the same sens which I haue doen So that althowgh yow take your pleasure of me yet yow should not ride so hard vpon him But mark a litle how vnable your answers be to vphould such a confident insultation For where this here spoken by a borowed speach is playnly vttered yow are compelled to expouÌ„d these wordes of the Apostle take avuay the vuicked man amongest yovu that is shun his coÌ„pany which is not onely a wresting of words but also vnsitting to the coÌ„parisoÌ„ with the leuained bread which S. Paule vseth to

of the Apostle For seing boeth that which immediatly goeth before this and which foloweth immediately after be publik offices what extreme bouldnes would it be to say that this in the middest is but priuate If he doe giue him self this licence let him shew example of such an order Further the Apostle here maketh a partition as it is manifest by the wordes and articles which are instrumentes to part with Now if he wil haue one membre in this partition bigger then al the rest and to conteyn them al he maketh the holy gost which is to be detested an euil and an vneuen parter Herevpon it cometh that when he speaketh of the dutyes which belong to al alike he beginneth with another form of speach Last of al yt is not to be omitted that he vseth the word of Distributor rather then the word giuer For althowgh it be taken sometyme for the giuer yet that is but by a trope for somuch as the same is often the distributor which is the giuer so that the proper signification being to dispose that which was giuen of others agreeth vnto the Deacon and not vnto one which giueth of his own His exceptions of Prophesy and widowes office be answered In the next being coÌ„uicted of his vntruth he falleth to iesting albeyt it be manifest that the Adm. towcheth not onely thinges in controuersy but sometyme also the breach of that which is established To proue that the Deacon owght not to meddle with the administration of the word and Sacramentes I alledged first that the Apostle vuilling euery one to kepe him self in his boundes boundeth the Deacons office in distributing of the church treasur and by that separateth him from those vuhich haue the dispensation of the vuord vuhereas if he should preach the vuord as the other the Apostle should haue made an euil partition and pretended a separation vuhere none is His answer hereunto is that it is no reason but why it is not he kepeth to him self The second reason was that for so much as the Apostles hauing such passing giftes did finde them selues vnable to susteyn boeth the ministeries of the vuord and for the poor that therfore there can be much les novu any able to doe them boeth togither His first exception whereunto is friuolous and before confuted his other that they spent no great tyme in prouision for their sermons is vntrue and openeth a gap to Anabaptism For althowgh their giftes were greater in those tymes then now yet they omitted not therefore to study diligently which may appear in that S. Paul is so careful to haue his parchmentes browght in that S. Peter had red S. Paules epistles so diligently Likewise that the Prophetes in tymes past which had extraordinary giftes vsed great diligence in reading as it may appear in Daniel which notwithstanding he was so wise so expert in the tonges and had so oft and so wonderful reuelations yet studied the prophesy of Ieremy And in a word of them al S. Peter pronouÌ„ceth that they took great paines in their prophesies vsing wordes most strong to set forth their great labor in prouiding foâ— that they tawght Nether was this of pleasure and a thing which they might ether doe or leau vndoen but a commandement as it is to be seen in the exaÌ„ple of Timothy which had giftes so much the more excellent then the Deacons as his office of Euangelistship was higher then the Deaconship For he is biddeÌ„ to read to meditate and to preach ioyning one with another and that not sleightly but with attention yea that he should dvuel in them or be as it were shut vp and enclosed in them thereby noting the great diligence that was to be bestowed as wel in reading and studying as in preachiÌ„g And thus went the building of god singulerly forward wheÌ„ vnto the giftes which came withowt their labor miraculously they labored also after ether encreas of them or getting of nue by the ordinary meanes prouided of god in that behalf Again S. Paul reckoning vp al the ministers of the word the Deacon not being there it foloweth that he is no mininister of the word And here the D. is plainly found at strife with him self For he confessing that there is in that place a complet and perfect diuision of the ministeries of the word and withal that the Deacon is not there conteyned doeth notwithstaÌ„ding here sing a clean contrary song Moreouer it is diligently to be obserued that S. Paul in describing this office requireth not that they should be able or apt to teach which notwithstanding being by the An. iudgment the cheif point belonging vnto him should haue bene most absurdly left owt Lastly if the Deacons office had bene togither with the Stewardship of the church treasure to haue preached and administred the sacramenres yt must folow that his office must haue bene a greater office then the Pastors as that which requireth greater giftes for executing boeth that which the pastor doeth and more to which being absurd that is also whereof this foloweth That monster which remaineth in this diuision I wil set vpon wheÌ„ I shal haue run throwgh that which pertayneth vnto this matter as it lieth in the 14 Tract As I did not before deny so now I coÌ„fes him to haue bene Phillip the Euangelist and not Phillip the Apostle which is mentioned Actes the 8 and hould as before that he preached by vertue of his Euangelistship and not by vertue of his Deaconship vuhich vuas then ceased for that the church vuhereunto he serued vuas scattered Against which answer his autority owt of the Actes 21 to proue that he was stil Deacon is quite contrary to him self For it affirmeth of the tyme past that he was before Paules arriual vnto Caesarea DeacoÌ„ not that he was so when he arriued For then the interpreters would haue turned the participle which serueth boeth for the tyme past and present according to the circumstance of the place which is one of the seuen and not vuhich vuas So that here we haue the common consent of al interpreters flatly against the D. namely that Phillip was not then Deacon when S. Paul came to Cesarea but had bene before That of M. Gualter maketh also against hym which placeth the Deacons office in the disposing of the church treasure and that they preached not but in tymes of necessity So that where M. Gualter permitteth preaching no more vnto Deacons then yow doe baptim vnto wemen yow wil haue it their standing office The difference betwene a Priest and a Deacon browght owt of Augustin and Epiphanius can by no meanes stand considering that that imposition of handes whereby giftes were extraordinarily giuen which Phillip absteyned from he did not absteyn from onely as Deacon but also as he was EuaÌ„gelist seing that was a thing peculier vnto the Apostles and a proper note whereby the lord magnified their ministerie

poor in euery church the vse of this office in euery church is manifest For further confirmation of which point the reader may haue recours to that I haue proued before that in euery church according to gods institution there owght to be a Bishop especially when the Ans hym self wil not deny but the Bishop and Deacon should goe togither Likewise vnto that which hath bene sayd of the Eldership in this behalf considering that some of the reasons are common to boeth As for the first of his exceptions that the Deacons of one city may serue al the whole Dioces yt is to far owt of square considering that for one onely church and that within one citie Ierusalem there were seuen His second that in scripture yt can not be shewed that Deacons were placed any where then in cyties is first to reason negatiuely of autority not in the question whether yt owght to be doen or no but whether yt was doen which not we alone but hym self also condemneth Secondly if this be a reason to bar the churches which are not in cities because there are none specified but in great cities theÌ„ he shal by the same reason bereue them of their Pastors considering that there is neuer a smal town of which yt is any more said that yt had a Pastor then that yt had a Deacon Thirdly he saith that the same can not be shewed oneles he be greatly deceiued in any auncient writer wherein he giueth suspitioÌ„ that he toke not his wares by tale but in gros otherwise he might better haue knowen what he hath suffered his book to be stuffed with For yt hath examples of countrey churches belonging to the church of Alexandria which had boeth Elders and DeacoÌ„s And his own Ignatius whom he wil haue Iohn the Apostles scholer affirmeth that euery church ovught to haue this office of Deaconship His comparison of this reason there vuere Deacons at IerusaleÌ„ therefore in al churches with this there be preachers in Cambridg therfore in al England is vnaequal For yt was not nakedly so propounded but warranted with reasons in that the Apostles labored after the coÌ„formity of the churches so that the proof that there was such an office in one is proof that there was in al or at least that there owght to haue bene which is al one to the matter in hand his answer wherunto is before confuted Therfore the comparison had bene iuster with this that the men in the city haue two handes a peece therfore they in the countrey haue so to and if any haue not that there is a faut The next is answered so is the next to yt To the reason I alledged that the church may be at as smale charges vuith a Deacon as vuith a Collector seing that yt may make of the Collector a Deacon he maketh no answer onely he couereth hym self vnder colour of the admonit which ironically as I iudg saith that euery parish can not be at cost to haue boeth a Curat and a Deacon considering that yt requireth boeth a Pastor and a Deacon in euery congregation althowgh to cut of occasion abowt their meaning herein I wil not striue The second chapter of this tractat is answered before Seing then the Apostle separateth the office of the Deacon from the ministery of the word making them diuers members of one whole and seing that in the perfect diuision of the ministery of the word he is not remembred seing also the Apostle describing his qualities requireth not that he should be able to teach Again seing that in executing his office towardes the poor togither with the function of preaching he should be charged with more then the Apostles them selues could doe and had need of greater giftes then the Pastor last of al seing boeth by iudgment and practis of the purer churches the Deacons haue bene ether altogither shut owt from preaching or being permitted to preach haue doen yt vpon a nue grace ouer and aboue the calling of a Deacon I conclude that the Deacon hath no calling of god to preach the word and by the same reason that he hath none to administer any SacrameÌ„t which later conclusion shal further appear in the next Tractat THE ELEVENTH TRACTATE AGAINST THE CORRVPTIons in doctrine tovuching the holy Sacramentes The first chapter vuhereof is against the sacriledg of priuate persons and vuemen especially in administring the holy Sacrament of Baptim as it beginneth pag. 503 of the D. book LEaving to the readers iudgment vpon the reasons alledged whether the meaning of the book be to admit baptim by Midwiues for as much as I trust there shal no such horrible profanation be suffered hereafter let him obserue how the An. because he hath once vndertaken this cause couertly as he dare continueth the defence thereof Iwis of folies the shortest are best yt had bene better for him to haue laid his hand vpon his mouth or rather in confessing of his faut to haue giuen god the glory But let vs see what he bringeth To that which was alledged ovut of the place of S. Mathevu that yt maketh as much against baptim by vuemen as against there preaching he answereth that by that reason Pastors may nether preach nor baptiz for that they are no Apostles which foloweth not For the Pastor succeding vnto the Apostles as touching preaching and baptising in their proper churches haue by the same place autority to doe boeth For further answer whereto I refer the reader to that I haue written before And I think there is not so much as one of the godly writers ether ould or nue which speaking of the ordinary ministery vnder the gospel whether it be to stablish or ouerthrow thinges perteyning to it vseth not the places that were first spoken to the Apostles alone As for M. Caluin he vseth this place expresly which the Adm. doeth to proue that wemen owght at no hand to baptise but onely the Ministers ordeyned to preach the gospel the same doeth M. Beza yea the Ans him self to proue the Bishops saying to those he ordeyneth alledgeth these wordes receiu the holy gost which notwithstanding were first said by our Sauior Christ vnto the Apostles alone so that the Ans frowardnes is here vntollerable Nether is it any thing excused by Zuinglius For althowgh baptim be not instituted here which was instituted in the ministery of Iohn Baptist nor here be mentioned any circumstance yet the minister of that institution which is no circunstance but a subordinate efficient cause may wel be appointed For confirmation hereof I alledged that the ministery of the vuord and Sacramentes ioyned of god togither ovught not to be pulled asonder and therfore cyted examples vuherin vue see obserued continually that the same vuere Ministers of boeth togither whereuÌ„to fyrst he answereth generally that examples proue not which is before answered TheÌ„ vnto the particular example of the Ark

pag. 33. Item 1. Cor. 12 28. pag. 37 38. Item Roman 12 8. page 38 39. Lastly Math. 18 17. page 51 52 53. That there be church matters to be doen in the gouernment of the church which the Pastor is not able do doe of hym self 49. That the Eldership beginning as sone as there is mention of any assembly of the visible church standing of diuers families was boeth before and vnder the law 40 41 â–ª That the Apostle wil haue yt continued vnto the worlds end 54. whether refer that obiected of widowes and wine pag. 54 55 also of the blud strangled and wasshing of feet pag. 62. Likewise that the supposed danger of altering the estate of the church gouernment caÌ„ here haue no place pag. 71. That the cheif offices of charity can not be exercised withowt yt 51 52 53. That the supposed impossibility of getting able men to exercise this charge can not hynder the restoring of this order 61 62 63 64. That yt is confirmed by the vse and custome of the elder churches 41 42. Also that degenerating yt reteined notwithstanding certain markes whereby we might come to the knowledg of yt partly open in coÌ„demning the breach of this order 42 correcting their error 43 complaining of the want of yt 44 partly secret whilest they confessed that the administration of the word and Sacramentes belonged not vnto the Elder but by grace and permission of the Bishop 43 44. That it is confirmed by the iudgment of the godly writers boeth auncient as Tertullian 41 Cyprian 42 Ignatius 45 Ambrose 44 68 Ierome 68 and of our age as Bucer 39 68 Caluin 35 41 Martyr 46 Beza 72. That yt owght to be aswel in a kingdome as in smale common wealthes 58 59. That yf this church gouernment were dangerous to common wealthes yt were more dangerous to smale coÌ„mon wealthes then vnto kingdomes 59 60. Aswel vnder a Christian as vnder an vnchristian Magistrate pag. 49 c. because The common wealthes must be framed vnto the church and not contrary wise p. 64 65. The Magistrate can not displace that the lord hath placed p. 50. Otherwise yt should be wors with the church vnder a Christian then vnder an vnchristian Prince 49 50. The punishing of one faut by two iurisditions can not hinder this 70 71. The Elders iontly with the Pastor take not so much vpon them as the Bishop whome the Magistrate doeth permit 51. That Princes owght no more to change the church gouernment then our Sa. Christ and his Apostles changed the form of the common wealth gouernment 50. There is more vse and commoditie of the Eldership vnder a Christian then vnder an vnchristian Magistrate 55 56 57 58 60 61. That yt was vsed vnder Constantine a Christian Prince p. 67. Aswel in vplandish townes as in great Cities page 44. c because The Apostles did institute yt church by church 45. That there is the same vse of yt here aswel as there 45 46 47. The gospel whereof the discipline is a part went owt of Ierusalem into vplandish townes aswel as into cyties 25. S. Paul inioyning this order vnto Timothe instructed hym aswel of the gouernment of the churches in the countrey as in the Citie 45. The Bishop being shewed to belong vnto the churches in the countrey aswel as vnto those in the citie the Eldership which is giuen for his assistance must doe the same 45. The Pastor there can not doe al by hym self alone 49. Otherwise there should be an inaequalite browght in amongest the churches which the D. hym self misliketh 45. The Apostles studying to conform the churches one to an other in smaler matters did yt muche more in this 45. The vse of the elder churches was suche 46 47. Of the reformation of the prebendes and Canons c. which are a part of the ruines of this Eldership and of the applying of their liuings to the erecting of Colledges 73 74 75 76. The ninth Tractate pag. 77. Of excommunication which is a separatioÌ„ from the coÌ„pany of the visible church and not of the excommunication owt of heauen onely Excomunication belongeth to the church because Our Sa. Christ instituted yt to be doen by the church pag. 78 79. whether refer that obiected owt of math 16. and Iohn 20 82 83. whereby notwithstanding the D. cause falleth 83. The Apostles and the holy writers of the scripture communicate the same power with the church 79 81 82. whether refer that supposed of S. Pauls sole excommunicating of the incestuous Corinth 80 likewise of Alexander 83 84 also of Titus auoiding an heretike 84. further that the church is ioyned with the Bishop as a doer not as a looker on or witnes onely 81. The holy gost chideth the church for that yt vsed not this power 82. That Princes subiection vnto this discipline of the church hindereth not any more the excominunication by the church then by the Bishop 92 93 94. The church hath power to absolue 80. Yt belonged vnto the church of Israel to rid their howses of leuen at the Pasover 79 80. Yt was doen by the elder churches and with approbation of their Doctors in Tertullians tyme 87 in Cyprians 87 88 89 90 Likewise in Ieromes and Augustins times 90 91 confirmed by the godly learned of our tyme M. Zwinglius 92. Caluin 90 91. Martyr 92. Not therefore to the Bishop alone especially Vuhen by his sole excommunication he hath prophaned the glory of god browght the church to a miserable servitude not to hym self alone but to his seruantes also 95 96. broken in to the Magistrats office 94. pilled the princis subiectes 95 96. Vuhen he may not pas smaller matters in the church by hym self alone 77. Vuhen for his sole excoÌ„munication there is not so muche as one approued example or writer to be shewed 85 86 89 c. some of the papistes them selues being ashamed of this sole autoritie of the Bishop 77. Tractate the tenth page 99. The Deacons office standeth in the care for the poor and not in the administration of the word and baptim because This office is so instituted Rom. 12 8 99 100 101. The Apostle deuiding the ministeries of the word maketh no mention of the Deacon 102. Hether refer the exceptions of Phillip 103 104. and Steven 106 107. The Apostle describing the qualities of the DeacoÌ„ maketh no mention of his â—ptnes to teach 102. Yf yt were a step to the ministery as yt is not 108 thereof foloweth that yt is not the ministery 107. Yt is an opposite member which togither with the ministery of the word helpeth to deuide one whole 101. In doeing boeth he should haue need of greater giftes then the Apostles or the pastor 101 102. whether refer that the Apostles and other indued with extraordinary giftes labored their sermons 101 102. By the same reason they are barred from the administration of the supper they owght to be likewise from that of baptim 104 105. The iudgment of the

the excommunicate vuhich remayn obstinate The eightinth is ansvuered 64 65. The ninetinth 64 c. The tvuentith 164 165 166 167. For ansvuer vnto the one and tvueÌ„tith I refer my self partly to that I haue ansvuered in the former part partly to the examination of the D. censures In the second Table For the 38 and 39 I refer my self to the examination of the D. censures The 40 is ansvuered 132 and 219. The 41 is confessed The 42 is ansvuered 230. The 43 p. 67. The 44 p. 85. The 45 p. 85. The 46 p. 87. The 47 p. 90. The 48 p. 96. The 49 p. 157. The 50 in the former part The 51 p. 262. Fautes escaped Page 18 line 30 read may as pag. 255 line 32 read three first pag. 26 l. 23 24 also pag. 27 l. 6. for the smal vnderstand the great running letter Correct the number of the leaf wich is marked beneth with the letter N immediately folowing the number 96. AGAINST CIVIL OFFICES IN ECCLESIASTICAL PERSONS TRActate VII and 23 according to the Doctor HAving in the last Tractate of the former part shewed the vnlawful dominion of certein of our church officers ouer the whole church and especially over their fellow Ministers yt seemeth good to ioyn this next therevnto For thereby shal boeth better appear how vnsufferable this disorder is which ouerspreadeth boeth church and common wealth and the gouernment by the Eldership the tractate whereof shal follow immediatly in yt self iust shal by comparison with this church lordship be more iustified That the moste of the places quoted by the Admonit are vsed of vuriters of that excellency vuith vuhome the D. is not vuorthy to be named the same day hath and further wil appear His exception that by this they are lifted vp aboue god himself is vain For beside that it is a kinde of speach vsed of the best autors to note a great inequalitie he is les worth then I prised him at if he think that he is worthy to be named the same day that god him self is For if he wil so seruilely cleau vnto wordes yet the question is whether he be vuorthy to be named not as he writeth whether he may be named The place of S. Luke is vnderstanded properly of the Ministers of the word and not of al Christians which is manifest for that our Sauiour Christ biddeth him that would haue goen bak for burial of his father to preach the Kingdome of heauen which he neuer commanded to al Christians so that his meaning is of the calling vnto the ministery and not of the calling to eternal life That such ciuil offices as he alloweth in Ecelesiastical persons are helpes for them to doe their duties repeted seuen times is a demaunding of that in question For where after he saith he hath declared yt he saith vntruly he hath onely nakedly affirmed yt which how vntrw it is shal after also appear My reply is that our Sauiour Christes vocation vuas to be a Minister of the gospel but he refused ciuil iudgment because of his vocation therfore he refused it because he vuas a Minister of the gospel whervpon also followeth that Bishops being Ministers of the gospel owght not to receiue any such power See now how iustly he complaineth that I answer not to that he said that Christs refusal in the partition of the inheritans perteyneth no more to Bishops then to Kinges no mervail also if it require further answer it was so wel garded seing his reason ys because the doeinges of Christ be a patern for al Christians then which there can be nothing more absurd For althowgh al his doeinges be instruction to al Christians yet that they are a patern to them al draweth with it that al may preach that none may giue iudgment in civil causes and a number more horrible confusions yt being also a fals ground of popery wherby they would establish the lenton fast and other such corruptions Vvhere also he would giue to vnderstand that our Sa. Christ did refuse this not as a Minister of the gospel but as Redemer he renteth a sunder thinges which can not be separated For one part of his redemership standeth in that he was giuen of god vnto vs for a teacher so that if he would haue answered any thing in this kinde he must haue said that he refused to iudg of ciuil causes not as a Minister of the word but as a Priest or King whereof also the last he in part setteth down saying he refused yt to declare that his Kingdome was not earthly but heauenly as if it were not as necessary for hym to refuse it in respect of his Doctorship that he might declare likewise that his doctrine was not of earthly thinges but of heauenly and consequently as convenient in the same respect for the Ministers to abstein from it But the further confutation of this the reader shal take from thence where is shewed that our Sa. Christ by his own example calleth the Apostels and in them al the Ministers of the word from al pomp and dominion and therfore from these ciuil offices whervnto pomp and dominion are annexed Then he answereth that no man giueth the Bishops autority to iudg in matters of inheritans whereas our Sa. Christ refused it not because he was no Iudg of that cause but simply because he was no ciuil Iudg refusing vpon the same ground to giue sentence of the harlot The Ministers for sooth may not medle with ciuil occupations but with ciuil offices and in ciuil offices not with them of no countenance as the Iailers office c but with those of estate and amongest those of estate not with matters of inheritance but with criminal causes Thus yow take your self licence to say al thinges and to shew none But to leau the rest vnto an other place let the D. shew some reason why the Minister should rather sit in iudgmeÌ„t of criminal causes then in pleas of inheritans they boeth belong to the Magistrate alike yf he owght to accept one being committed vnto hym by the Magistrate why not also the other especially when as by criminal causes requiring more search and greater diligence then the other there must needes be greater hinderance from his ministery As for that he saith those are to be decided by law and haue other Iudges appointed for them the criminal causes are likewise And if there were no other Iudges appointed for them yet whether there owght to be is the question so that the D. answer is here an open demaund of the question Vvhere also owt of M. Caluin he alledgeth Barnard that the Ministers power is in crimes it is a shameful abusing of boeth Calvin and Barnard for they speak there of rebuking and punishing syn by ecclesiastical censures which is manifest in that they convey the title of this power to the Minister by the Keies deliuered vnto S. Peter now the very

streighter to look vnto As for that he bringeth of other ecclesiastical punishmentes which may be vsed beside those prescribed in the scripture it apperteineth to another questioÌ„ And so doeth Gualters testimony which is not onely idly but shamefully alledged in this cause especially considering that he doeth precisely coÌ„demn the exercise of any ciuil gouernment in ecclesiastical persons The two next diuisions are answered I know that corporal punishmentes be meanes to bring men to hear and if yow wil also to beleue the word but that it doeth so or at least so much when it is executed by the Minister as when it is executed by the Magistrate I denie euen as it is in excommunications and ecclesiastical censures when they are executed by those to whom they doe not appertain It foloweth not that because fear of ciuil punishment is profitable therefore yt is profitable in the Ministers hand nether for that it hindereth faith vuhen the Minister preaching in the pulpit hath the ciuil svuord in his hand there fore it hindreth when the Magistrate houldeth it in his hand For the profit of the fear of the sword dependeth vpon the blessing of god that giueth it efficacy which blessing is then giuen when the sword is drawen by him vnto whom it properly belongeth There are of iudgment that it is not conuenient that the same should teach scholers and chasten them with the rod but that some other rather should haue that charge wherwith I wil not medle but if the Scholemaster should haue beside the rod the sword also to take away the liues of their scholers or to send them to the iayl who seeth not the inconuenience that would rise thereof And yet the Scholemaster as he whose office is les ecclesiastical is much more capable of this power then is the Bishop That he supposeth me to affirm that the causes which they medle with as the Queenes maiesties Commissioners are ecclesiastical and that they may giue a iudicial sentence of them is a flat vntruth This onely I gaue to vnderstand which I yet affirm that the same causes may be boeth ciuil and ecclesiastical For in respect that inquisition is made to punish yt with corporal punishment it is ciuil the same is also ecclesiastical when it is examined to the end that the conscience may be towched with sens of the syn by the church censures The D. similitude is as I sayd manifestly iniurious to the Magistrate For if the execution of the lawes belong vnto the Bishop as the making of them doeth to the Magistrate it foloweth that as the one is the proper office of the Magistrate so the other is the proper of the Bishop And further that in that common wealth where the Magistrate may make the lawes him self alone there by his reason the Bishops may execute them alone As for his answer it is nothing but a demaunding of that in question That moses did the office of the Sacrificer is certain in that he sprinkled the blood vpon the altar and people which perteyned properly vnto the Priest likewise the same is confirmed by his ordeyning of Aharon and his sonnes to the priesthood which belongeth vnto the Priest in like maner That Moses after Aharon was made Priest prescribed Aharon what he should doe he did it from the mouth of the lord and that also as the Prophet of god and in a figure of the doctorship of our sauior Christ and not simply as the ciuil gouernour of the people For althowgh the ptieshood were taken from him yet he remained a Prophet vnto his dying day and therefore that exception is insufficient So is that also of them in whome he saith that boeth offices ciuil and ecclesiastical met For not to enquire how truly those examples are alledged especially of Nehemias of whome there is not a step of likelihood that he exercised boeth the offices it helpeth him no whit althowgh it were so as he alledgeth considering that such were extraordinarily raised vp of god and not by any established order or election of men Vvhich also is a peece of answer to that alledged after to this purpose of our Sauiour Christes whipping which was in ruinous and not in standing estates of the church Nether is this once to moue much les to ouerthow that which was before disputed For the question is what order the church is bound vnto not what lawes the lord is bound vnto likewise the question is not what ether may be doen or tolerated in the desolation and wast of the church but what owght to be doen in a church established and reformed and what that order is for establishment wherof euery man must employ him self according to his calling In Elies and Samuels tymes it appeareth that the church was in miserable estate boeth by the whole discours of the story and namely that there was a great dearth of the vuord of god But mark I pray yow this diuinity he would haue their examples which haue bene as he saith boeth Priestes and Princes yea and Captaynes also of the host serue to proue that Ministers may be Iustices of peace but not that they may be Princes or Captaines where as if those examples proue that a Minister may be chosen to bear ciuil office they proue especially that he may be chosen to bear that office which they bare from whom he fetcheth his profe For if that wherefore they may be chosen to other ciuil offices doe not agree vnto them the other which haue their ground from thence can much les agree Therefore if the D. be afraid to confes that thes examples proue that a Bishop may be a king or a Captain if he be chosen to yt he owght also to be afraid to confes that a bishop may be a Iustice of peace when he is chosen vnto it To that I say that these examples doe as vuel proue that the ciuil Magistrate may be a Bishop as that the Bishop may be a ciuil Magistrate he answereth that the ciuil office is accidental to the ministery and such as may be remoued from it but the ministery is not so vnto Princes onles they be ordinarily called then which what can be more confusedly spoken For if I should graunt that the Prince might be a Minister of the gospel and the Minister of the gospel a Prince why should not I besech yow the ministery be as accidental to the princehood as the princehood vnto the ministery Surely if it be not accidental to the princehood and yet such a thing as agreeth vnto it it must needes be essential that is that which can not be seuered from it withowt hurt of that estate Beside that in placing the difference of the respect of the Ministery to the princehood and of the princehood to the Ministery in that the Prince may not be a Minister withowt an ordinary calling yow giue to vnderstand that the Minister may bear ciuil office

Epiphanius serue not his turn For nether is it said whether they medled with ciuil affaires before their bishoprik or in yt and if it were considering there is no approbation of their doeing but onely a bare telling that such a thing they did it can not help him For it is one thing to say they were commended for dexterity in such matters and another to say that they did it in dutie and wel euen as if the ciuil officer taking the pulpit and speaking fitly of a text a man might giue him the commendation of dexteritie in handling the text and withal condemn him for doeing it withowt calling Hether perteineth that which he alledgeth in another place of Letoius a Bishop which burned Monasteries but by what autority appeareth not beside that his act seemeth otherwise to haue no ground For if it had any good issw it was more by hap then by good konning The like and vpon like zeal was doen by one Audas a Persian Bishop that burnt an Idoles Temple which act gaue occasion of greuous persecution whereby may appear that Bishops went some tyme beyond their limites and did thinges permitted vnto them nether of god nor man. Of our age he citeth witnesses M. Cranmer Ridly Hoper and in another place Brentius for Brentius seing he hath no reason let him haue that credit which so smale a friend of sincerity deserueth especially against the consent of so many better then he for the other he maketh it not to appear that they were of that iudgment And of M. Hooper it is manifest that he did flatly condemn it which sheweth that the Bishops for the space of 400 yeares after the Apostles althovugh they vuere more able theÌ„ ours did meddle vuith no ciuil affaires where he sharply tauÌ„teth our Bishop which meddleth with boeth offices when one is more then he is able vuith al his diligence to discharge and impossible that he should doe boeth and that if the Magistrate vuil employ a Bishop in ciuil affaires he ovught to discharge him of his Ministery Yf M. Cranmer and Ridley did exercise boeth that is to be ascribed to the tyme wherein the Sun of the gospel being but lately risen in our climate al the cloudes which popery had ouercast our land with could not be so quikly put to flight Seing therefore the Ministers office is onely in thinges that pertayn to god which for a degree of excellency that they haue in promoting our saluation more then other the holy gost opposeth vnto the Princes and common wealth affaires seing also it is of greater weight then the strongest bak can bear of wider compas then the largest handes can faddam a soldiarfare that wil be onely attended vpon seing also it tendeth to the destruction of the body when one membre encrocheth vpon the office of another and that the ciuil Magistrate may by the same right invade the office of the Minister as he the office of the ciuil Magistrate seing further our Sauiour Christ hauing the spirit withowt measure refused as a thing vnmete for his ministery the office of a Iudg seing also the Apostles indued with such glorious giftes as are not now to be looked for gaue ouer the office of the Deaconship as that which they were not with the Ministery of the word able to exercise and seing for the burden thereof it was easier then the ciuil charge which the Bishops take vpoÌ„ them and for the kinde of Ministery more agreable seing also the examples in the Scripture of theÌ„ which haue born boeth the charges are ether before this order was established of god or being sithens were extraordinary last of al seing this mingling of the estates is contrary to the practise of the elder church vttered boeth in Councels and fathers contrary also to the practise and iudgment of the godly learnedest of our tyme I conclude that it is vnlawful in an established estate of the church that a Minister of the church should bear ciuil office And thus much against the Ministers which haue one foot in the church and an other in the common wealth Now to the treatise of the Eldership for the cause before assigned THAT THE CHVRCH GOVERNMENT BY AN ELDERSHIP IN Euery congregation is by the ordinance of god and perpetual Tractat 8. and 7. according to the Doctor p. 626. THat which a Tully saith of an Oratour ful of wordes that he would make owtcries to get an appetite to drink may be feared somewhat otherwise in the D. who giueth suspition that he hath forced his pen to write not to get but to quench if it might be the thirst of honour And verely if this order of Eldership had not strenght to stand by our defence yet the vertw of it might easely appear in that yt so amazeth and astonieth the aduersary as if he had bene stricken with a thunderbolt from heauen so that beside a multitude of wordes wherwith by oppressing the reader he might make some shew of answer there wil be litle found that can of right chalendg a reply Howbeit to honor him with some answer leauing his disordered handling which I noted aswel for that his defence is fond as for that this is not the place to diduct that matter let vs see what he bringeth in this cause Against that I alledged owt of the Apostle The Elders vuhich rule vuel are vuorthy dubble honor especially vuhich labor in the vuord and doctrine to proue that there were Elders which assisted the teaching Ministers onely in the gouernment of the church he answereth first that the word Elder is the same commonly with Bishop or Pastor wherein partly he confuteth him self For if it be but commonly so taken and not alwaies then it may be taken otherwise in this place His first example likewise out of Peter 1. 5. is plain against him for thereby appeareth that Peter an Apostel and no Bishop is called Elder nether is there any word in that place wherby the exhortation to the Elders should not be applied as wel to the Elders which gouerned onely as to those which labored in the word also considering that the word of feeding respecteth not onely preaching but that gouernment also which is with owt preaching in which respect boeth in scripture and otherwise the ciuil Magistrate is said to feed And it is to great an ouersight to think that because al Bishops be Elders therefore al Elders are Bishops when as the name of Elder is common vnto al which haue gouernment of the church and most properly agreeth to those which haue the gouernment onely withowt further charge of teaching And the name is taken of the vsage vnder the law where they which had onely gouernment ether in church or common wealth were so called Secondly he saith that by those that gouerned and labored not in the word are vnderstanded those which ministred the sacramentes where to let pas that which hath and shal be after

god willing shewed that the same owght to be Ministers of the word and Sacramentes I would know of him which hangeth so of the interpretation of men why he hath here departed from the iudgment of the learned and godly writers of our age and forged an interpretation which hath no approbation of any auncienty For as for that he saith of Chrysostome beside that yt is vntrw if he had neuer so smale a sound that way he would haue rong it so deep that withal he would haue turned Chrysostomes clapper But obserue how vnproperly he maketh the Apostle to speak in giuing the name of gouernment vnto that wherein there is no gouernment at al. For is yt not think yow a strong kinde of gouernment and needeth it not a great gift of discretion and iudgment to powr a litle water vpon the childes head distribute a lofe of bread cary the cup and say or read a sentence al as he is praescribed when the Apostle no where giueth this title of gouernment vnto the Deacons in whom notwithstanding is required no common discretion to know to whome and how much is to be giuen how much les would he giue it to such as haue the onely and bare administration of the Sacramentes How should also S. Paul be made to agree with him self which went the neerest way to work to ease the churches of charges if he should haue brought into yt such vnprofitable burdens as is this order of Ministers of Sacramentes which the D. imagineth especially seing a Pastor was needful in euery church who being praesent at the Sacramentes might as commodiously Minister them as be a receiuer onely His reason that the Apostle would otherwise haue said which labored in the word and Sacramentes is weak not onely because it is vsual vnto the scripture by the cheif part to note the whole but also for that the Sacramentes are conteyned vnder the word and are a visible word in which respect they are also said to haue a voice Nether doeth he here make mention of praying another of the Bishops duties so that by your answer we should haue an other order in the church of Sayers of prayers Alike vayn it is that S. Paul was not sent to baptiz but to preach when he was called to boeth althowgh rather to the one theÌ„ to the other as your self some where haue confessed As for that yow would conclude that Pastors haue no more bond to baptiz in their churches then S. Paud had yow might aswel haue concluded that al Pastors are Apostels considering that he speaketh that in respect of his Apostleship whereby he was bound to goe from place to place and not to tary as the pastor in one place The titles of Christes Vicares and of gods Prelates doe boeth agree vnto the Elders which onely gouern And althowgh nether Ambrose nor Caluin make any mention of this Eldership vpon â— Timoth. 5. 19. yet how foloweth it that they ment no such Eldership in the place which I alledged this is but a straunge conclusion M Caluins place also Institut chap. 8. sect 72 is shamefully abused for he saith that those vuhich teached vuere Elders And where as the rule of the action when the Eldership met apperteyned vnto the Ministers of the word that they chose amongest them one which gouerned the action Now in steed that M. Caluin saith that al the Ministers of the vuord vuere called Elders â—he An. maketh him to say that al the Elders of the church were Ministers of the word where Caluin in the self same chapter doeth expresly make two kinde of Elders one of those vuhich Ministred the vuord another of those vuhich vuere onely Censores of the maners of the church This Ierome is if I haue not taken my note amis a bastard and yet he hath nothing for him For in that he saith that there was and order which had the word but labored not he is as fauorable vnto this Eldership as vnto his order of sacrameÌ„t Ministers The next diuision hath nothing but that which cometh afterward to be handled Against the place that Paul and Barnabas ordeined Elders by voices in euery church first he excepteth that the plentith of preachers then was such that euery congregation where Paul and Barnabas had to doe might haue moe then one which is said withowt ether profe or likelihood the vntruth wherof may easely appear in that to the great cities where there was greatest store S. Paul was fain to send Timothy and Titus for supplies which otherwise he could so hardly spare Then he saith to ordeyn Elders throwgh euery church is to ordein one Pastor in euery one which is no plain but a figuratiue speach and that doubly boeth in that the general name of Elder is put for the particular and in that the plural number is put for the singular Therfore vnles he can work it owt with good reasons to proue that the gouerning Elders can not here be vnderstanded the simple and plain sens is to be praeferred As for the place of Titus it helpeth him not For the Apostel referring Titus to that order which he had prescribed him contenteth hym self to pursu the office of the teaching Elder vpon occasion of fals teachers which trobled the church For that owt of Caluin and Brentius it may be said that althowgh S. Luke cal them Elders which were Bishops yet he calleth them not so onely And of M. Caluin it must needes be so vnderstanded seing he auoucheth the place of Titus which the An. confesseth al one with the 14 actes for the establishment of these gouerning Elders But if the D. had read M. Nowels catechism so diligently as he would seem this would not haue bene so straunge to him For where he sheweth that the Pastor owght not to excommunicate withowt the iudgment of the church and declareth that for that purpose there were in the wel ordered churches certeyn Seniors chosen and ioyned with the Pastor he quoteth this very place which the admonition doeth And I see not why it may not be as wel referred to the Elders as to the Bishops Seing S. Luke there setteth forth how they set a ful order in the church And of that iudgment is the greek Scholiast which affirmeth that those vuhich folovued S. Paul and Barnabas vuere vuorthy to be Bishops and that they created of them Elders and Deacons also In the next diuision if the D. first answer be onely considered he might iustly complain of me but when he by and by reasoneth against the admonition for that yt would proue Seniors owt of that place of 14 Actes al see that I haue doen him no wrong To proue further that boeth Pastors and Elders which onely gouern can not be vnderstanded in that place of the Actes he assigneth this reason for that the holy gost should vse equiuocations or speak dowtfully then which there can be nothing more vnsauery For it is

decree they did as it were couertly confes that they had receiued the reward of breaking the order of god in permitting that the Elder should teache in the church For if it had bene of the institution of an Elder to preach Nether Arrius nor ten thowsand moe suche heretik Elders owght to haue giuen cause of such a decree seing the institution of the lord owght not to be broken for any abuse of men Ierome I graunt somewhere doeth reprehend this and some learned of our tyme after him haue estemed the decree of Alexandria fauty herein But that being considered which I haue alledged there is no cause to condemn that decree whether it were of the Nicen councel or of Athanasius and the Eldership of Alexandria And what if Ierome him self althowgh an Elder of Rome giue testimony vnto this cause that is to say that yt belongeth not vnto an Elder of the church to minister the word or Sacramentes Let his wordes be weighed wherby he confesseth playnly that nether Elder nor Deacon had right but vpon the Bishops commandement so much as to baptiz vuhich notvuithstanding saith he is licenced euen to laymen in tyme of necessity Vnhereunto also refer that which Tertullian writeth that it belonged vnto the Bishop onely to baptiz and that the Elder and Deacon could not baptiz but vpon the Bishops licence Now if the Elders had no right to preach c. by reason of their office or as incident into yt if the Bishop onely had right and the other but by indulgence or commandement thus far we haue boeth Tertul. and Ierome agreeing with vs that by the word of god and his institution the Elder hath not to doe with the word and Sacramentes And the same autors we haue also flatly contrary to the D. which houldeth as appeareth by the discours of his book that al Elders and Deacons of the church althowgh not in gouernment yet towching the ministery of the word and sacramentes are equal and haue as much autority as the Bishop him self This difference onely remaineth betwene Ierome and vs whether this being not of gods institution that an Elder may preach or Minister the sacramentes it be lawful for any man to giue licence therof which bouldnes of remouing and changing the boundes which the lord in the tarriers of his word hath limited boeth is before and shal afterward god willing be further handled Last of al for proof of these church Elders which being occupied in the gouernment had nothing to doe with the word the testimonie of Ambrose alledged in my former book is so clear and open that he which doeth not giue place vnto yt must needes be thowght as a bat or an owl or some other night bird to delight in darknes His saying is that the Elders fel avuay by the ambition of the Doctors where by opposing the Elders to Doctors which tawght he plainely declareth that they had not to doe with the word whervpon it is manifest that boeth yt was the vse in the best reformed churches certein hundreth yeares after the tymes of the Apostles to haue an Eldership which medled not with the word nor administration of Sacramentes and that they which wanted it partly complayned of the want partly declining from this institution of god corrected their error at the least they kept this difference that whereas the Bishop preached and ministred the Sacramentes in right of his office the Elder did it not as a thing incident to his office but onely vpon indulgence of the Bishop Another point wherin the D. turneth his tong is that where he confessed before that there was in euery church Seniors now he saith in some onely And to salue this contradiction with him self he saith by euery church he ment euery cheif city Thus yow speak but by what rule and according to whose language when yow expound euery church euery cheif citie as if their were no churches but in cheif cityes But thus must al their tonges be deuided which put them forth against the truth Howbeit to come to that point by what reason can yow shew that the Apostles instituted a seueral Ministery for cheif cities which they did not for vplandish townes what were this but to bring in an inequality amongest the churches which your self otherwhere confes owght not to be Yt is I graunt meet for the furtherance of the gospel that the cheifest cityes when al can not be serued should haue the first the sufficientest and according to their need the greater numbre but that they should haue a seueral Ministery ordeyned for them into the felowship whereof the smaler churches may not be admitted is withowt reason Secondly the gospel which conteyneth the doctrine and discipline went not owt of IerusaleÌ„ into the cheif cityes onely but into al the world Thirdly it hath bene shewed that the epistle of S. Paul to Timothy wherein mention is made of the interteinment of these Elders was not a rule prescribed to churches in great cities onely but vnto al churches wherosoeuer Further seing the Elders are continually ioyned with the Bishop it being shewed that the lord ordeyned for euery congregation a Bishop it must folow that he ordeyned for euery congregation Elders finally for as much as the Apostles labored to bring the churches one with another to an vniformity eueÌ„ in the smalest ceremonies how can they be thowght to haue made so vneuen work in the Ministery of the church I let pas here the place in the Actes before handled where it is said that Elders vuere ordeyned in euery church Likewise the necessity of them aswel in other churches as in churches in the citie which is after to be handled Onely I wil note what hath bene the practise of the churches in this point wherby may appear how the auncient fathers haue vnderstood this order That Ignatius which the An. wil haue S. Iohns scholer affirmeth that there is no church vuhich can stand vuithovut her Eldership or Counsail This is manifest also by the Apologie of Tertullian wherin he defending the gouernmeÌ„t of al the churches not of those onely in cityes and shewing for that cause the order obserued in them maketh precise mention of this Senate of Elders as hath bene before alledged The testimony of M. Bucer is also manifest in this point as it is alledged of me before Likewise of M. Martyr who affirming that certeyn of the people vuere ioyned vuith the Pastor in the gouernment of the church assigneth the cause for that the Pastor could not doe al him self thereby giuing to vnderstand that the Eldership was as general as the Pastor For he doeth not say where the Pastor could not doe al there he had assistance of an Eldership but because the Pastor could not doe al c. The onely reason which the An. hath against this is that there was not an Eldership amongest the Iues in euery of their synaguoges But as

wil giue it some honester name then my fancy To that I alledged that if the Auncientes should not be vnder a Christian Magistrate yt vuould folovu that the lord should haue les care of his church vnder a Christian then vnder an vnchristian Magistrate he answereth that the Christian Magistrate is in place of the Eldership but nether addeth reason him self nor once towcheth the reason which I browght namely that yt vuas neuer lavuful for the church in persecution to appoint any that should enter vpon any part of the ciuil Magistrates office This also could not be a sufficient recompence in matters pertayning to the soul health that for an Eldership in euery church they should receiue one Prince in a whole countrey For one Prince can not in the spiritual gouernment of the realm bring that to pas which the Eldership in euery church did before althowgh he should doe nothing but attend vpon that So that to make the Magistrates to succede into the office of the Elders and therein to doe al the duties appointed vnto the Eldership in tymes past is to charge the Magistrates with a thing vnpossible and such as must needes kyl their consciences Thus where the Christian magistrate is giuen of god to kepe the order which god hath set in his church yow bring him in as a breaker and changer of the order which god hath appointed by his holy Apostles But the godly Christian Magistrates may vnderstand that as nether our Sauior Christ nor any wise and wel instructed mynistery vnder him wil meddle with any order or form of common wealth lawfully instituted of them for the better gouernment of their people but leau them as they finde them So they owght to leau whole and vntowched that order which Christ hath placed in his church And as the An. saith truly otherwhere that Christ came not to ouerthrow ciuil gouernmentes euen so it is as true that god sendeth not kinges to ouerthrow church gouernment planted by Christ and his Apostles Yea so much more absurd is this later then the first by how much they owght to haue more firmity which were set by the lord him self then which were by men For what son of Adam shal presume to alter that order which the lord hym self from heauen hath set And euen so doeth the Apostle precisely speak of this office with others that god hath set it in the church Yf it be said that he set also Prophetes and workers of miracles which are now no more it is true they are now no more but why are they not Ys it because any man hath remoued them no verely but because the lord him self hath withdrawen them For if the lord had giuen euen vnto these dayes these giftes of healing and working of miracles c. I think there is no man so extremely impudent that would say that the ciuile Magistrate might abolish or put them down Beside that it is vntrue which he saith otherwhere that this office is placed amongest those which be temporal for euen that next before yt noteth the office of the Deacon which is perpetual As for that he crieth owt and so oft repeateth that by this meanes no more is giuen to the Christian Magistrate then to the Turk proceedeth onely of a famyn of reasons to answer which driueth him to this vnrulynes otherwise he can not tel how the establishment of this office should spoil the Prince of her autority S. Paul professeth of him self that he vurote the same that men red that is to say syncerely not pretending one thing and meaning another but al this ialousy pretended for the Prince against the Eldership is in deed for the Bishop So that albeit the name of the Magistrate be houlden owt to draw this cause into hatered yet the truth is that yt is to establish their own tyranny For as towching autority or preheminence there is nothing giuen to be doen by the Eldership ioyntly with the Pastor in one onely congregation al which and more to the Bishop him self alone doeth not vndertake to execute in a whole diocese or prouince Therfore if the exercise of this spiritual iurisdiction in the Eldership spoil the Magistrate of his autority then the Bishops are the chief in this robbery Vuhere he asketh how I shew owt of the scripture that those are the duties of the Elders which I haue assigned I answer that forasmuch as S. Paul appointeth them gouernours of the church togither with the teaching gouernours placing the difference onely in teaching and consequently in publik prayer and administration of sacramentes which are ioyned with yt or comprehended vnder yt that therfore the rest remain commoÌ„ betwene them to be doen as wel of these as of them That the place of S. Mathew is not to be vnderstanded onely of priuate offences I haue before declared your interpretation of tel the church that is publikly reproue those which admonished priuately repent not is euil nurtured breaking in withowt leau where mark good reader how easy it is for the D. to write answers which being pressed giueth him self this liberty that hauing no key to open the dore breaketh it open after this sort To interpret tel by reproue might haue some colour by that the general is some tyme put for the special but that tel the church should be reproue the offender hath a disease that al the tropes and figures which I haue red of are not able to cure And me thincketh that yow which accuse others for making the scripture a nose of wax if yow wil not put of your shoes at the least yow should wipe them a litle cleaner when yow enter into the lords Sanctuary That which foloweth is not a whit better For after he saith that by the church may be ment one onely so that he be in autority which is not vnlike vnto that which the papistes say that a man may appeal from the Councel vnto the Pope wherof some of the papistes them selues if he doe not repent shal sit in iudgment which leauing vnto the Pope the highest place in the church haue notwithstanding vpon this place preferred the iudgment of the Councel to the Popes But where I require some example of this monstruous speach vuherby one is said to be many one membre a body one alone a company the D. is domb where I shew further that if one onely should be vnderstood by the church that then the going from thre to one should not rise but fal not goe forvuard but bakvuard he answereth that to tel one which hath autority to correct the faut is more then to tel twenty as thowgh the complaint is made to the end he should be corrected and not that he should be admonished For as for correction other then by wordes it owght not to be awarded onles he refuse to hear the church so that here stil the proces is from the admonition which is by many to that

which is by one And if the Pastor be he that doeth first priuately admonish him and afterward take two moe by his answer the Pastor must from his own admonition in the presence of one or two moe take the matter to him self and admonish him self alone He hauing thus dalied with the holy scripture after confesseth that by the word church are vnderstood many but those owt of Chrysostome are saith he Prelates and PresideÌ„tes as thowgh S. Paul did not also cal these Elders Presidentes which is al one with Prelates Then he addeth that the place is vnderstanded of the gouernment vnder the law not of any rule which our Sauior Christ gaue to gouern his church vnder the gospel euen as where our S. Christ biddeth to leau the gift before the Altar which ouerthroweth his other interpretation And again owt of Musculus that it was but vnto the tyme of the Christian Magistrate which ouerthroweth also this next before But if this be ether the law gouernment or the gospel gouernment onely vntil the tyme of the Christian Magistrate then to admonish priuately him that offendeth to take one or two if he rest not in the admonition be also of the same sort For our Sauior Christ putteth them alike general alike necessary of like limitation of tyme for he chayneth them one with another by the link of his commandement that if this way profit not then the second must folow and the third after that Then also it foloweth that the meanes to bring synners to repentance serued onely for the tyme of the law and vnchristian Magistrates For after that our Sau. Christ had tawght how the lord deliteth in the return of the synner and in the fyneding of the lost shepe he propoundeth this as a principal mean wherby he wil haue that browght to pas But let the D. shew any light owt of the word of god whereby it may appear that certeyn of these commandementes are temporal and certeyn perpetual certeyn to serue for the tyme of the law and an vnchristian Magistrate if not then the commandement of Christ remaineth wherof nether he nor none other can shew any countermandement Beside that it is absurd that it should be here declared what order was vsed vnder the law and not vnder the gospel when our Sav. Christ instructeth his Apostles how to behaue them selues in the church and speaketh of the order that should be in hys church in tyme to come That also which he citeth owt of mathews is flat against hym For althowgh our Sau. Christ vseth maner of speaches drawen from the seruice of god which then in vse be not so now yet the commandement he there giueth vnder that kinde of speach is perpetual And as what soeuer is abrogated of that precept Mathew 5 is abrogated by the prescript word of god which teacheth vs that offring of calues vpon the altar and other ceremonial lawes are doen away So if he wil haue this ordinance of god abrogated he must shew vs some place of Scripture where our Sau. Christ repealed yt what we ascribe vnto the Christian Magistrate shal appear afterward To the place of Timothe requiring a necessary obseruation of thinges comprised in that Epistle he answereth first that these Elders are not there comprised nor their office I haue shewed that boeth they and their office be there which is the same with the Bishops that onely excepted which I haue before noted Further in the word Deacons as yt is wel obserued the Apostle comprehendeth boeth the Elders and those which had the almes to dispose which may appear in that describing the qualities of the Deacons he noteth there no special qualitie of him that hath the order of the church is treasure but those qualities onely which are common as wel to the Elder as to him that disposed the church money After he saith that those wordes can not be extended vnto al the preceptes first because the office of widowes should be then necessary But he doeth not consider that S. Paul ordeyneth them not simply but vpon condition yf he had instituted the Eldership with condition if he had ordeyned that office rather for the mayntenance of the persons them selues then for the seruice of the church if he had left so smal choise of those to this office as to that namely that none might be chosen but poor none but destitute of al friendes none vnder the age of lx yeares then he had said somewhat And euen now the perpetuity of that commandement towching widowes remayneth in that sort it was giuen that is vpon coÌ„dition Then he saith that so Ministers which haue such infirmities as Timothe should of necessite drink wyne By wine the Apostle meaneth not onely the blood of the grape but strong drink also and what soeuer might be apt against Timothies infirmityes And so it is a playn commandement not onely to Timothe but to al ministers in his case that they should vse such remedies against their diseases wherby they might be more able to doe their Ministery Nether is it les a perpetual commandement to al Ministers because al countryes haue not wyne then the commandement of excommunication because al countreys haue not such Publicanes as were in Iury to make their patern of excommunication by Last of al he bringeth Chrysostome and Caluin which refer those wordes vnto Timothes office which is to no purpose For Timothe for his part and in his place the Minister of the word had to doe in al those offices as wel to ordeyn as to reprehend and punish them if they did not their duty so that in commaunding Timothe to execute his dutie according to the tenure of that Epistle he doeth playnly command the mayntenance of this office whether the word vuithovut spot be referred vnto Timothe or vnto the commandement I leaue to the readers iudgment So I doe the next diuision In the next also beside Musculus and Gualters iudgment there is nothing sauing an extreme ether forgetfulnes or that which is wors in saying that he remembreth not to haue red any autor that maketh mention of this Eldership For if he had neuer red the autors them selues yet he could hardly forget that owt of them which I alledged to that purpose To the first reason prouing that an Eldership is more needful novu then in the Apostles tymes for that the Pastors novu are not of that sufficiency to gouern al alone as they vuere then he answereth that there be not also so sufficient men to make an Eldership now as there were then which serueth aswel to proue that we should haue no Pastors at al as that there should be no Eldership to support the Pastor But how absurd is it that because they can not giue so ful and plentiful assistance now as the Elders in tymes past therfore they must giue no asistance at al. So that oneles he wil say that none of the parish

can doe any thing in the gouernment of the church but the Pastor alone he must needes confes that that wchich may be owght to be for support of the Pastor his other answer is before confuted Secondly yt was alledged that S. Paul so loeth to lay any vnnecessary charge vpon the church yet enioyned this ministery vnto the poor and persecuted churches The streÌ„ght of which reason lyeth in this that some contributioÌ„ vuas necessary to their mayntenance then vuhere as novu in tyme of peace this ministery may be vuithovut al charges vnto the church To thys in sted of answer he frameth other argumentes of his own wherewith he dalieth skowreth vp his ould stuf of widowes and the ciuil Magistrate before answered alledgeth the pouerty of some parishes the vnwillingnes of other some to contribute which is a meer trifling For seing the pouerty of the churches could not exempt them from this charge when they were much poorer as appeareth by S. Paul seing also yt may be now withowt the charge of the church as appeareth by the practise of the churches which are so gouerned in these dayes where there is not a penny alowed to any Elder ether he owght to confute this or blush to set down that for answer yet he is not afraid after to put yt for a reason against the Eldership whervnto may be added that the churches in persecution nether those now nor other in tymes past could haue such helpes of howses or landes appropriated to the fineding of their ministery as the churches with vs but were driuen to pay for al of their own purs And not that onely but coÌ„streyned to pay their tythes or other exactions to the Idolatrous priesthood of that place where they abode which we are freed from vnder a Christian Magistrate To the third reason that the declyning of a popular rule or that of the best hath not so easy redres vnder a Tyrant as vnder a Christian magistrate he saith men in persecution are not desirous of honor c. which in a maner is as much to say as men in persecution ceas to be men and is vntrue as appeareth boeth in the Apostles tymes and after as I haue shewed Secondly he answereth that the gouernours theÌ„ were but during the pleasure of such as ppointed them wherof he bringeth no profe at al and is likewise vntrue considering that they were chosen to remayn so long in their office as they behaued them selues vnblamably or at the least vntil a certeyn term before which they could not by any equity but vpon their faut or their own desire be put owt In the first of which two cases they are somewhere now as they were then and in the later they may if it seme expedient euen now as wel as then so that here is no difference at al betwene those and these tymes Nether doeth he consider that the gouernours being corrupt the greatest part of the church is commonly led away with them In which case the church is withowt remedy vnder persecution when notwithstanding she hath an easy remedy vnder a Christian Magistrate Thirdly he saith that this graunted the argument foloweth not reason he sheweth none but open askinges of that in question And whether it folow wel that for so much as there ys les inconuenience in the gouernment of the Eldership vnder a Christian magistrate then vnder a Tyrant therfore it may be better vnder hym then vnder a TyraÌ„t let al the world iudg his owtcourses as also his open vntruth that I confes the church gouernment to be a monarchy I pas by I onely said that it is a monarchy in respect of our Sau. Christ which is nothing to that purpose he alledgeth yt for In the fourth that the Elders could not then meet vuithovut danger vuhich they may doe novu and therfore that the gouernment by one onely as of the Bishop had bene if euer then most conuenient he answereth that it was not so dangerous which is contrary to al reason and experience Then he saith the church must be subiect to the ciuil magistrate whereby as appeareth boeth in this diuision and in the next he meaneth nothing els but that yt owght to allow of that church gouernment which the Magistrate wil appoint althowgh yt be diuers from the Apostles which is a fat begging of that in question his first and third answers also towch not the cause at al. Vuhere against his distinction that this gouernment of Elders may be in a Cytie but not in a Realm I alledged that it hath had place by his ovun confession in a vuhole Realm he saith that that is true where euery church is as yt were within yt self a common wealth as in Fraunce and other persecuted churches wherein he doeth shameful iniury to al those churches of god and to the Apostles them selues which vsed that order in ascribing vnto them as thowgh they made new common wealthes or liued not vnder the same form of ciuil gouernment were not obedient vnto the same ciuil lawes and to the same Magistrates which the Idolatres them selues were what one ether action or property can yow assign in an Eldership vnder a kingdome which should cause this rent that there should be so many common wealthes and so many kingdomes as there are Elderships why also doeth this Eldership make a greater rent in a monarchy where one gouerneth then in a common wealth where many gouern If yow think therfore because a monarchy is greater then a common wealth wherby there must be moe Elderships in the one then in the other beside that the argument is nawght that also wherevpon it is grounded is vntrue For there are common wealthes where many rule greater then the monarchies where one onely gouerneth as Rome in tymes past Venys within our remembraÌ„ce and such like Vuhere I alledged also that by his reason a monarchy should not be good in the common vuealth because the gouernment of one is good in a hovushould c. He answereth that the autority of the Master of the howshould derogateth not from the Princes but the Eldership doeth which is his accustomed beggery where in deed the autority of a Master of a howshould approcheth nerer vnto the kinde of gouernment of the Magistrate as that which hath corporal punishment annexed vnto yt then the autority of the Eldership which meddleth not that way And because I am entred into that example I would know of hym which wil haue other gouernmentes fashioned to the form of gouernment of the common wealth whether in a common wealth where many haue equal autority the magistrate may ordeyn that the father of the houshould shal not rule his own how 's alone or be cheif in yt but shal haue his wife of like autority or some of his seruantes quarter Master If he be ashamed of this then he seeth that the wal of al his defence against the discipline of the

this order is al one as yf he should say that Princes pertain no to the kingdome of heauen are none of the church haue no part with Christ c. Thus ys boeth Christ robbed of his honor which in coÌ„tempt of his order as thowgh yt were to base for Princes to goe vnder is hym self contemned and Princes defrauded of a singuler ayd of saluation and way to draw them to repentance when they throwgh the common corruption fal into such diseases against which this medicin was prepared Hether belongeth the practise of the church in this and such kinde of censures toward the Emperoures Philip Theodosius and Anastasius on the one side and the godly Emperoures submission thereunto on the other which yf he vpon confidence of M. Gualters autority dare coÌ„demn of pride in them which exercised those censures or of foly in the Emperours that submitted them selues not to charge hym with Master Nowels autority which saith that the Prince ovught paciently to abide excommunication at the Bishops handes what wil he answer to the example of Mary Moses syster and kyng Vzzias which were subiect to the same law of vncleaÌ„nes by reason of the leprosy aswel as any of the common people For that the separation commanded in respect thereof was not onely a ciuil policy to kepe the whole from the sik but that there was therein vsed a part of Ecclesiastical discipline yt may appear for that the Priest had the knowledg of the cause the shutting them owt and receiuing them in and for that Azarias the Priest of the lord with other his Assistantes remoued the kyng owt of the temple for the which he is commended in the scripture And if yt had bene onely a ciuil separation yet when the Princes could not be exempted from yt for fear of a corporal infecting of their subiectes how much les owght they to be exempted from that separation which is instituted against the spiritual contagion that which he obiecteth of the drawing this spiritual sword at euery light or no occasion at al thereby to deliuer the Prince from subiection thereto ys vayn for yf they abuse this power the Price needeth not onely to coÌ„teÌ„n yt but also may punish the abusers of yt So that in this respect there is les cause why the Prince should shake of this yoke of Christ then others considering that he hath better remedy against the abuse of yt then others That coÌ„tractes of mariadg appertain not vnto the iudgment of church officers it is manifest considering that it is partly oeconomical and belonging to the right of the parentes partly ciuil in respect that it was in tymes past concluded before the Magistrate For as for the blessing in the church it is no part of the contract but a thing annexed vnto yt which appeareth in that vpon the bare contract before the blessing the parties althowgh not to haue company one with another be man and wife and for that the breaker of that contract is taken for an adulterer wherevpon it foloweth that the iudgment of diuors being meerly publik must be the ciuil magistrates alone For matters of willes it appeareth that they belong vnto the Magistrate considering that they are occupied in the commodities of this life and towch the distribution of goodes or landes As for the An. reason that the Bishop hauing best knowledg in those thinges may best iudg in them it is a hook to get al into their own handes But I deny first that they haue or can by their calling haue best knowledg in such thinges considering that there be diuerse thinges in them which require other knowledg then of the law of god And the case is rare when the question is whether a legacy a contract or a diuors be according to the law of god or no at least which requireth any deep knowledg to dissolue it And if al that which may fal into these matters were to be decided by the law of god yet to sit as iudg in them requireth not onely knowledg but also a calling which Bishops can not haue for the causes aboue alledged Therefore it is manifest that herein the Bishops are vsurpers whereof also the D. may read M. Nowels iudgment that vuhoredomes adulteries slaunders subtraction of tithes cases testamentary c. vuhich Bishops sometyme meddle vuith are no more spiritual then are murthers theftes oppressions and other iniuries Nether wil it help him that they exercise al maner of iurisdiction in the Princes right For first it hath bene shewed that they owght to exercise no ciuil iurisdiction althowgh it were committed vnto them Then how cometh it to pas that in right of their bishoprik withowt further commission from the Prince they take vpon them these iudgmentes of whoredome diuorces c euen as they found them in tyme of popery And as for excommunication and other censures ecclesiastical if they exercise them in the Magistrates right it foloweth that boeth the magistrate may much more exercise them him self and appoint other then ministers to doe theÌ„ boeth which as they be absurd so are they ouerthrowen by the D. him self which thinketh it vnlawful for Chauncelors to excommunicate for that as I suppose they be no ministers In the next where the Chauncelors are charged to excommunicate and absolue for money also one man for another c. he saith it is the faut of the man and not of the law which if it were true yet it argueth the Bishops vnsufferable carelesnes of godes glorie whose institution is thus shamefully profaned and neglect of duty towardes the Prince whose subiectes are thus pilled And here it is not to be omitted that where the ecclesiastical ceÌ„sures in reformed churches are exercised withowt a penny charge vnto any person our churches partly by reason of the Archbis and Bishops and partly the Archdeacons officers and their hangons which by this meanes liue in al brauery and iolytie of life are sore wrung So that they are therby much les able to contribute to the necessary charges ether of releeuing their poor minister or susteyning the subsidies laid vpon them for defence of the realm Therfore if the Archbishops and Archdeacons wil needes take more vpon them then them selues be able to beweld at the least let them pay their seruantes wages and not thus burden the church But thus the reader may see how vnworthely the Archbishops Bishops and Archdeacons deal with the church which not content them selues to vse tyranny ouer yt and to take vpon them of their priuate autority which belongeth vnto other with them haue also brought it into bondage vnder their seruantes and seruaÌ„tes seruaÌ„tes I mean Chauncelors Comissaries c. The next I pas by In the next where I shew that the office of Chorepiscopus alledged for defence of the Chauncelers office vuas far another thing he saith that he onely alledged yt to proue that Bishops had their deputies â–ª which how

yet it is singulerly profitable for instruction of our behauiour in like cases The least part also of S. Peters oration Act. 2 is spent in answer to the accusation of dronckennes and that nether compelled nor iudicial as was S. Steuens I graunt a man may defend hym self against fals accusations in a sermon but that is not wheÌ„ he standeth iudicially accused like a malefactor as S. Steuen did whose vuhole oration how apt a purgation yt is which he denieth the reader may fetch from M. Caluin vpon that place that I be not coÌ„pelled to lenghthen my book by so long translations Against M. Beza in quoting of whome I failed are opposed Gualter and the Centuries of whose senteÌ„ces which is truer let it be iudged of the reasons on boeth sides whether in the two next diuisioÌ„s the Ans shifteth his gros ouersight let the reader iudg especially wheÌ„ as his pretence that the Adm. assigned the deaconship to be onely in handling the church treasure is vntrue For nether haue they the word onely nor any thing of that value and it is manifest that their drift was onely to shut owt the DeacoÌ„ from the administratioÌ„ of the word and sacrameÌ„tes so that in taking his wordes in that sens which he now would haue them in effect he coÌ„fesseth hym self to haue but trifled with the Admonition chaunging the prickes which they had set hym to shoot at and roving after a mark of his own finediÌ„g In the next I alledged that if the DeacoÌ„ship vuere grauÌ„ted a step to the ministery yet thereof folovueth not that yt is the mynistery but contrarivuise that it is not and therefore ovught not to doe thinges pertayning to the ministers To this he answereth he concluded not so which I confes can not be forcibly won owt of his wordes But he saith he might haue so concluded which is absurd and al one as if he should say that the foot of the stayer is the same with the top whether it in ascending leadeth And how dare he say that he might haue so reasoned when as to the argument which I drw from these wordes of hys he can answer nothing how could he haue hurt vs with this which he suffereth to be driuen so flat vpon the head of his own cause Vuhere afterward to proue it no step to the ministery I alledged that the giftes are diuers and that one may vuel dispence the church treasure vuhich for vuant of vtterance should neuer be fit Minister he answereth that the Bishops and Deacons giftes required 1. Timot. 3 doe not much differ which is a great vntruth For it is required of the one that he should be boeth able to teach and of long tyme in profession of the gospel nether wherof is required of the Deacon when notwithstanding the first onely of them maketh a greater difference as towching the duty of preaching which is in question then if he had made them to differ in an hundreth other thinges he addeth that they may be put by the mynistery for their leud lyfe which is a meer mispending of the tyme for so may the Clokkeper or the Sexten Again that Ambrose with other expound yt so which is likewise that being before confessed by me especially when other learned men by his own confession leauing their exposition take this which I propounded Further that vtterance sufficient for the distribution of the church money is sufficient also for the ministery of the word which must of necessity be his answer if he speak to the purpose And being so it is to absurd the confutation whereof if it deserue any may be fetched from that before handled Althowgh if that were true the argument is not avoided oneles he wil also say that there is as great knowledg and as deep iudgment in the scriptures required for the disposing of the church treasure as for the preaching of the word vnto the other reason which I browght against this that the deaconship should be a step to the ministery raised owt of the same place he answereth nothing Here he abuseth the readers patience again For where before not able to shew one testimony owt of any auncient writing that the Deacons had to doe with the word and sacramentes I confessed notwithstanding frankly that there were some he hath here set them down wherevnto beside the answer before made I ad that those cited owt of Tertullian and Ierom be so far from helping hym that they make against hym For in that the Deacons could not meddle with the word or Sacramentes but vpon the Bishops licence it argueth that yt beloÌ„ged not vnto their office seing it is absurd that that which they were bound to doe by reason of gods institution should be hanged vpon the Bishops pleasure Likewise that owt of M. Beza is against hym For in saying they supplied the Pastors office he giueth to vnderstand that it belonged properly vnto Pastors and was doen by Deacons but in tyme of necessity And so was the Administration of the supper which saith he he can not read in any autor to haue bene permitted to the Deacon wherein to let pas the Councel of Arles and others which licence this vnto theÌ„ in absence of other at the least did he not read M. Bezas sentence which he hath thrust into his own book that they ministred the sacramentes not onely the Sacrament of Baptim althowgh the places quoted 1. Corin. 1. 14. 15. and Iohn 4. 2. proue no such thing no not in the Ans own iudgment as I think For wil he say that the twelue Apostles which baptized were al Deacons or that because S. Paul did not commonly baptize those whome he conuerted that therfore Deacons baptized them as if there were nether Euangelistes nor Pastors to doe yt Nether is yt enowgh for hym thus to trifle except he vse most vile reproches against me as thowgh I striued against a manifest truth But that euen by M. Bezas iudgment the administring of baptim doeth lawfully belong to the Minister alone and not to the Deacon the D. may see otherwhere Now vnto the most certeyn groundes of the word of god let hym hear the testimonyes of the auncient tymes And first of the general Councel which maketh the DeacoÌ„s Ministers of the poor whom it calleth Ministers of tables and not of the holy thinges Another Councel decreed that in the Ministers siknes the Deacon should read the homilies of the fathers wherby appeareth that that CouÌ„cel not so much as in the tyme of the Pastors siknes suffred them to preach the word but to read homilies thereby assigning also the greatest honor in doeing any thing which the Minister vsed to doe in the church in that he might read ether the scriptures or homilyes Chrysostom saith that the Deacons had need of great vuisdome althovugh the preaching of the vuord be not committed vnto theÌ„ And further sheweth that yt is absurd that they should doe boeth

the office of preaching aÌ„d caring for the poor coÌ„sidering that they be not able to doe boeth thorovughly yea euen immediatly after that corrupt sentence which the Ans wil needes father vpon Ambrose it is said that in his tyme the Deacons did not preach Of this practis of the elder churches we haue M. Bullinger that giueth a playn testimony with vs that althovugh the goodes of the church encreasing there vuere beside the Deacons Subdeacons and Archdeacons yet that the Deacons remayned stil in their charge for the poor and vuere not as yet mingled vuith the Bishops or priestes and vuith the order of those vuhich tavught This being thus set that which for the strauÌ„genes I called a monster falleth flatly for wheÌ„ yt hath appeared boeth by the word of god and practis of the elder churches that it be loÌ„geth not vnto the office of the DeacoÌ„ to meddle with the mynistery of the word and sacramentes yf yt be true which the Ans saith that prouision for the poor by a DeacoÌ„ is not necessary vnder a Christian Prince yt must folow that the office of Deaconship vnder a Christian Prince is vnnecessary which as yt ys absurd so hym self I think wil not affirm yt yf he doe yt hath the same refutation which the denial of the necessity of the office of Elders hath had before Na althowgh yt were grauÌ„ted which he would haue that the Deacons office were to minister the word and sacrameÌ„t yet this point of prouisioÌ„ for the poor taken away the Deacon is quite extinguished coÌ„sidering that there should remayn no part of office whereby the minister of the word should be seuered yf he say that there should be differeÌ„ce in that the one might minister the supper and the other not beside that I haue shewed how absurd that is he caÌ„ not so escape for stil the giftes are al one coÌ„sidering that whosoeuer hath giftes of god to minister the word and BaptiÌ„ the same hath also giftes to inable hym to minister the supper whereas seing S. Paul separateth the offices by their giftes yt were against reason to make theÌ„ diuers offices which haue the same giftes for their executioÌ„ Beside that in taking away that which he is coÌ„streyned to coÌ„fes to haue bene by gods institutioÌ„ at the least a part of this office he is manifestly coÌ„uicted of chaÌ„ging and corrupting yf not of vtter ouerthrowing the lordes ordinaÌ„ce Els let hym shew vs what tittle of the scripture he hath whereby yt may appear that the ministery of the word and Baptim which he surmiseth to belong vnto yt should be perpetual and the prouision for the poor temporal So also appeareth that the coÌ„tradictioÌ„ is vnanswered which was laid vnto hym in that in the lati book saying yt owght not to be takeÌ„ away in this and the other he saith that this part is not necessary for thus should yt not be the office of a DeacoÌ„ instituted by the holy Apost but another functioÌ„ forged by D. whitgift This assertioÌ„ of his being strauÌ„g his reason wherupon yt is grouÌ„ded is yet further owt of fashioÌ„ for he contenteth not hym self to say that meÌ„ may deuise as good away for the prouision of the poor as did the lord hym self oneles in this behalf he set vp the wisdome of men aboue the lordes For this doeth he playnly in effect affirm when he saith that the poor may by other lawful and politik meanes be better prouided for coÌ„sidering that yt was the lordes own order established by the Apost where beside that his reason is a demaund of that in question and that the vntruth therof hath bene before noted I wil answer further owt of Esra where there is a notable story towchiÌ„g a matter not much vnlike for after he had receiued of kiÌ„g Darius boeth precious vessels and other giftes for gods seruice being now in iorney froÌ„ BabyloÌ„ vnto Ierusalem and vnderstanding vpon view of his company that there were not of Priestes and Leuites a sufficient number to whome he might commit this treasure stayed there with his whole suit vntil such tyme as he had recouered a competent nomber of the church men For that this was the cause of their sending for appeareth by the yssu of committing the treasure vnto their custody And albeit there might be some other vse of them at Ierusalem beside this cariadg yet that their presence was necessary in this respect it is manifest not onely because otherwise he might haue giueÌ„ order that they should haue comen after withowt staying so great a company for their sakes but especially vpon the wordes of Esra which assigneth the cause of theyr election vnto that charge to haue bene for that the money and plate being consecrate to a holy vse yt behoued them which were likewise consecrated to haue the custody of yt Now if the Ans should sit in iudgment of this act of Esra and iudg by his Canon law which he hath here set down this godly learned Priest hath already receiued the blak stone or sentence of condemnation For were there not as faithful and as wise for that purpose in the company as ether the Priestes or Leuites were were there not of the Princes which for their skil in fight and for the trayn which folowed them were more able to make head with the enemy that should giue the attempt to take them away then were ether the Priestes or Leuites finally is it not a meer superstition to stand thus vpon the difference of a tribe or family with los of tyme and expens of money in so great a company But the Priest appealeth to that court where the canon of the holy scripture sitteth Iudg. which because yt teacheth that the safty and prosperous succes of thinges depend vpon the blessing of god and that that blessing is especially giuen where thinges are doen according to his institution the same restoreth his righteousnes agayn and giueth hym the white stone of absolution for that the weaker and more vnlikely hauing the calling of god thereunto is more apt then withowt that calling the strongest Sampson that can be got So that if in common reason the Collectors were fitter then the Deacons which is vntrue considering that the same may be ecclesiastically ordeyned Deacons which are Collectors yet forasmuch as it is the vnrepealed and vnrevoked order of god that the Deacon should doe this yt owght to be preferred to al the inuentions of men how faier and colourable soeuer they appear But of the confutation of this enowgh is said especially considering that beside the continual practis of the church with the common consent of the learned boeth ould and nue M. Bucer hath labored this point particularly in the behalf of our church which sheweth that this office must of necessity be restored as yt is described Act. the vi if England vuil receiue the true discipline of Christ Hereupon also considering there be

may as wel say that a woman owght to doe the same in the holy supper But the knot is not yet loosed my answer whereunto is that if there were any priuate sacramentes as there is priuate teaching I would accord vnto him that wemen hauing power to teach priuately might also minister the sacramentes priuately But because that the holy sacramentes are publik as is the preaching his argument hath no force For in what place wil he lodg this argument a woman may doe a priuate act therfore she may doe a publik The diuision folowing being euil seuered of him from the next chapter whereunto it belongeth I leau vntil I come vnto that matter Now it may please the reader to turn vnto the 5 chapter pag. 516 which is also of this point in hand towching the person by whom this sacrament should be administred where first mark I pray yow a wily distinction which in effect is that he defendeth not baptim by wemen but improueth the Adm. that disaloweth yt as thowgh one could improue the one and not defend the other And vnles he had browght the example of Sephora to mayntein baptim by wemen it had bene fondly alledged considering that the wordes of the Adm. are of the practis of the Apostles tymes an exception against which fetched from the tyme which was 1000 yeares before might seme to come from him whose wittes were not at home especially when the question is what was doen and not what owght to be doen as he hym self now pretendeth Secondly he saith he wil not contend with me in diuers thinges in this diuision for that he misliketh their error which condemn infantes that be not baptized as much as I which is not so For he saith that the lak of baptim may seme to be a probable token and sign of reprobation which is boeth vntrue and perillous considering that not the want but the contempt or neglect onely of the holy Sacrament can draw any the least apparance of the lordes wrath Nether is that ether neglect or contempt preiudicial to the infant but to the parentes onely whose faut that is which notwithstanding can be none where they seek to thir vttermost that yt may be baptized of the minister of the church orderly and conueniently no more then it was preiudicial ether to the childe or parentes vnder the law when the infant died before the eight day which was the tyme apointed for the administration of the Sacrament of circuÌ„cision For as the eight day was to them so is a conuenient and orderly tyme to vs. Yt is therfore a shameful dealing that he maketh vs here to ioyn with the Anabaptistes which reiect childreÌ„ from baptim vntil they be able to make profession of their faith whereas we confes it owght to be ministred with al conuenient speed so it be by the minister whome god hath ordeyned for the same purpose In which accusatioÌ„ of Anabaptism with vs he windeth vp also as it were in one bottom the reformed churches where it is not permitted that the infant in any case should be baptized but by the minister withal the reader may perceiue how idle he is which translateth a great peece of M. Caluin to proue that which none denieth whom also he goeth abowt to oppose to him self which is of the same iudgment with vs in this behalf althowgh there be not so much as a tittle in the wordes he setteth down bending that way Yt may wel stand that this profanation came from the Gentils from Victor and from the Papistes Victor borowing it of the heathen and the Papistes of hym For boeth popery is like a bundel of corruptions which being picked owt of sundry tymes and places it hath cocked vp togither and the Pope is like a hog which when he cometh into a garden leauing the sweet flowers taketh him self alwaies to that which is most filthy in al the place otherwise the D. might deny any corruption almost to be papistical seing they haue few whereof ether paganism or declinyng from Christianism hath not bene the first founder To that I alledged to proue the vnlawfulnes of the circumcision by Moses wife for that she did it in presence of her husband a Prophet which is M. Caluins reason he opposeth the note of the bible printed at Geneua that he could not doe it because he was sik and that the Lord required it then whether he was able or no I wil not striue but that the lord required circumcision if there were no ordinary minister for it doeth not appear For as it was an order of god that the male childe should be circumcised the eight day so was yt also his order that he should be circumcised by a minister Now how can it be shewed by that the lord strake Moses that he would therefore haue this ordinance changed when as the siknes sent was a correction for the breaking of one of his orders and not a trumpet blown to cal them to the breach of the other And what if as it cometh to pas the lord had as yt were stricken Moses by siknes in the childe or that the childe being of discretion had hym self willingly wanted circumcision owght the childe therfore by and by with the present hazard of his life haue bene circumcised no verely But as this siknes should haue instructed boeth father and son to repent them of the former negligence and to purpose the amendement of yt when the childe should be able to abide the wound so the siknes of Moses was for that end sent that he should repent him of the former negligence and amend it when it might be according to the order appointed To that alledged that she did it in a koler he answerereth not To that that Moses recouery is no proof of the lavufulnes of it considering that vuhen thinges are measured by the euent the good are condemned and the vuicked iustified oftentimes he answereth that the euent oft declareth the thing which is but to wast winde For if it doe oft otherwise it can serue for no reason or allowance of that circumcision And if the iudgment by the euent be to be taken it is there where the causes doe not appear but here the cause of circumcision which is the institution of god is able to try the matter where also appeareth how affamished he is to finde contrarietyes in my book in that he supposeth variance in this that here I cal Moses a prophet and in another place say that the priesthood vuas taken from hym and giuen to Aharon which is to foul an ouersight For boeth there were Prophetes which were no Priestes nor of the race of Priestes and the tyme of the deliuerance ouer of the Priesthood vnto Aharon was long after the tyme here spoken of Against that I affirm it a necessary point of the Sacrament that yt be ministred by a Minister he maketh many owtcryes but they be not these lowd clamours which can

holy communion beginning pag. 526. diuis vij of the D. book AMongest diuers reasons browght to proue that the whole body of the church should so much as may be communicate â—n the holy supper togither he cauilleth â—t that alledged owt of S. Paul saying that he blameth those which did contentiously separate them selues whereas the Apostle vnder one kinde noteth al needeles sundring of the members one from another in that holy action That owt of S. Mathew 18 of two or three gathered in Christs name ys answered nether ys it denied but that two or three may communicate yf the other wil not at al onely yt ys said that where the other wil althowgh not so often as is conuenient yet that in such a case the three should for the reasons alledged whereunto he answereth nothing tarry for the rest his next diuision is answered in the 9 diuision which he taketh vp before by rending my book asonder that he might seem able to say somewhat which answer of myne vpon how good ground yt standeth let the reader iudg his reply whereunto is senseles where also his mervailing that I say the tvuelue vuere made Apostles after their first calling argueth his want considering that the ordeyning of them to be Embassadors throwghowt the world which is the vocation of their Apostleship was not vntil after the resurrection That which deceiueth hym is for that he considereth not that yt is the vse of the scripture in speaking of the beginninges of thinges to term them by the names which they had at the tyme of the writing and not which they had when that which they wrote was doen as in the names of Babel and Peleg c. the next requireth no answer In the next he accordeth that by ecclesiastical censures and ciuil punishmentes the rest of the church should be browght to communicate with the three where he manifestly forsaketh the book which leaueth yt free three seasons of the year onely excepted And the truth is yf it be conuenient that yt should be celebrated oftener yt is also meet that there should be punishmentes for the breach of that conueniency his exception against the proof of excommunication for want of doeyng this duty that to cut ovut his soul from the people signifieth to put to death and not to excoÌ„municate vttereth his want considering that the same commandement was giuen to Abraham in the gouernment of his how 's which was the church of god And yet that no ciuil sword was put into his hand ys manifest in that being a priuate man in the common wealth he dwelt in he had no power of lyfe and death But of this matter he may learn further other where His obiections against the Adm. and my allegation of canons ascribed to the Apostles are answered That the owtward vncleannes vnder the law may be easlier auoided then the inward which owght to kepe vs from the communion being so generally spoken is vntrue and refuted by me in the case of procuring the funeral of our friendes to which we are bound whereunto he answereth nothing nether can the vncleannes of lyfe which is priuate and not openly knowen hinder any oneles yt be such as men mean not to amend That weaknes of faith owght to withdraw vs from the communion is a manifest vntruth yt being instituted for the strenghtning of the weaknes thereof The examination of hym self is required not onely in the partaking of the communion but also in hearing of the vuord of god as whether he come with minde to be tawght and to folow or whether he come of curiosity or of custome or to please men and such like As for corruption of iudgment want of instruction in the vse of the sacrament open offenses and al such disorder of life as requireth separation by the churches ceÌ„sures they fal not into this case where is disputed not for what causes men owght to be put from the holy communion but for what causes they may withdraw them selues when they be by common and good policy of the church admitted Therfore al this is but an abusing of the tyme which is browght against that which I said that yf being of the church and able to examin them selues they be not fit for the hearing of the vuord nether are they fit for the receiuing of the coÌ„munioÌ„ whereby also may appear how vnworthily he doeth now the second tyme obiect contraryety with my self so openly refuted by expres wordes As for the reasons which I alledged to confirm this sentence with he once towcheth not whereunto I wil ad the iudgment of the auncient writers that he may learn to blush which not contented to haue reprehended yt here setteth yt in the beginning of his book as a dangerous point and palpable error Chrysostom writeth thus of the supper hovu tariedst thovu behynde I am thovu saist vnvuorthy then art thovu also vnvuorthy of the communication vuhich is in the prayers The like sentence he hath in another of his homilies uÌ„to the people of Antioche Ambrose saith he that is not fit to receiu the bread of the supper dayly is not fit once in a year August speaking of this matter sheweth that yf the synnes be not so great that one should be excoÌ„municated for them that then a man ovught not to separate hym self from the daily medicine of the lords body whereunto ad M. Bucer which disalowing the communion which is by the Minister aÌ„d one other and withal shewing that the rest of the church owght to be driuen vnto yt boeth alledgeth and aloweth that sentence of Chrysostom before rehersed In the next diuisioÌ„ of the cause of the superstitious fear of coming to the coÌ„munion let the reader iudg of coÌ„sidering that of the euil beginninges of lenton fast I haue spoken before and wil not suffer the D. to start away by mouing of other questions To this chapter belongeth the rest of the 15 Tracta where in the pag. 590 first diuision for his saying we read not that wemen receiued the supper he pretendeth M. Caluin and Zuinglius but they excuse not his rashnes For althowgh they haue the same wordes yet they match this cause with others which are necessary and which haue certein proof owt of the scripture althowgh not in expres wordes whereas he matcheth yt with those thinges which are by his own confession indifferent and not necessary giuing thereby to vnderstand that there is no better grownd of the one then of the other which reason being alledged to proue the occasion of triumph which he giuith here vnto the Catabaptistes and Anabaptistes he answereth not The three next diuisioÌ„s are answered Next vnto this foloweth another vnchangeable doctrine as yt lyeth pa. 603 of the D. book where althowgh the Answ dare not opeÌ„ly vndertake the defence of driuing of known papistes vnto the lords supper yet partly in trifling with the proofes browght for the

if he had bene able should haue shewed that I agree in this cause with the Papistes namely in the end of this treatise where I shew how far I stand from them in this behalf Howbeit hauiÌ„g beside vntrw surmises little or nothing at al to mayntein him self with he hath to strike a preiudice into the minde of the reader and to set as it were a bias of his iudgment to draw it vnto his side here in the forefront set vp this vntrue accusation whereunto I wil answer when I come to that place Now for better clearing of this matter the distinction betvuene the church and coÌ„mon vuealth vnder a Christian Magistrate denied by him is to be confirmed Vuherin as towching the autority of the word of god boeth owt of the ould TestameÌ„t and the nue I refer the reader to that which I haue writteÌ„ sauing that the place of the Cronicles coÌ„meth after to be towched again In the churches after the Apostles and that vnder godly Princes the same differeÌ„ce hath bene diligeÌ„tly obserued by the ecclesiastical writers As when it is said that the church and common vuealth not onely suffer but florish togither keping this distinction as wel in the church is prosperity as in her aduersity Also that the hovuses of prayer being restored to the church other places vuere adiudged to the vse of the commoÌ„ vueaelth Likewise that there is one cause of the Prouince and another of the church Yf he can not coÌ„ceiue how this should be he may be giueÌ„ to vnderstand it after this sort that a man may by excommunicatioÌ„ be sundred froÌ„ the church which forthwith leeseth not of necessity his Burgeship or freedome in the city or common wealth Likewise that the ciuil Magistrate may by bannishment cut of a man from being a member of the common wealth whome the church can not by and by cast owt by excommunication Again when one is for his misbehauior depriued of his priuileges boeth in the church and common wealth albeit the church be vpon his repentance bound to receiu him in again as a member thereof yet the common wealth is at her liberty whether she wil restore him or no. Finally infidels vnder a Christian Prince may vntil such tyme as they refuse instruction be members of the common wealth yet are they not therefore members of the church where if the church and common wealth were as he saith vnder a Christian Prince al one it should folow that whosoeuer is a part of one should needes be a part of the other and contrawise whosoeuer is cut of from one must be cut of from the other His autority pretended against this distinction owt of Musculus that the Christian Magistrate is not profane is to no vse For not onely the high dignity of the ciuil Magistrate but the moste basest handicraftes are holy when they are directed to the honour of god but to conclude thereof that they are not distinguished from ecclesiastical causes is to much vnaduisednes For wil he conclude that for because the gouernment of the how 's and the gouernment of the commoÌ„ wealth are boeth holy that therfore the gouernment of the how 's is not distinguished from the gouernment of the coÌ„mon wealth or wil he say because the company of a man with his wife in lawful matrimony is holy that therefore it is a church matter This distinction of the church and common wealth vnder a Christian Prince being so apparant in certein cases there is no reason why it should not be so in the rest which shal yet better appear in this discours where commeth first to be considered what he answereth to the place of the Cronicles where vpon that certeyn Priestes and Leuites had the handling of matters perteyning vnto god and certeyn others the matters perteyning vnto the king I concluded that the church iudgmentes ovught ordinarily to be handled by the church officers His answer hereunto is that forsomuch as Iehosaphat the king by his autority committed boeth ecclesiastical and ciuil causes therfore he had power him self of boeth whereunto I reply that he committed not those ecclesiastical matters vnto the Priestes and Leuites as those which he might haue reteyned with him self or as a thing in his own discretioÌ„ but vsed onely his princely autority to put in executioÌ„ that which the lord had commanded For yt is manifest that the self same thing which Iehosaphat did here was commanded to be doen in the law And if this proue that the iudgment of ecclesiastical causes perteyneth to the king because he confirmed by his autority the ecclesiastical Iudges it proueth also that boeth the ordination of Ministers and the preaching of the word belong vnto hym considering that this very king is said to haue sent forth preachers into al lury But let the reader obserue how he hath here vtterly passed by the weight of my argument which standeth in this that the holy gost maketh this partition that some matters pertayn to god and others to the king whereas if the matters pertayning vnto god pertayned also to the king the partition should be fauty Nether by matters pertayning vnto the king are vnderstanded those which pertayn vnto his own person or his family but matters within the compas of his princely iudgment as appeareth by the example of the cause of blood which the scripture setteth down especially if this place be compared with that of Deuteronomy where this example is put particularly and opposed to the iudgment of leprosy which then belonged vnto the priest To the place in the Hehrues that the high Priest is appointed ouer thinges vuhich appertayn vnto god he answereth that the Apostle declareth that those thinges are to offer giftes c. which is nothing worth For the proposition is general wherupon the Apostle concludeth so much as serued for the present purpose otherwise yow may as wel say that yt belonged not to the high Priest to preach because the Apostle mentioneth not that part of his office in that place Seing then it is apparant owt of the Cronicles that iudgment in church matters pertayneth vnto god Seing likewise it is euident owt of this testimony of the Apostle that the high Priest is set ouer those matters in gods behalf it must needes folow that the principality or direction of the iudgment of them is by gods ordinaÌ„ce pertayning vnto the high Priest and consequently to the ministery of the church And if it be by gods ordinance apparteyning vnto theÌ„ how can it be translated from them vnto the ciuil Magistrate That which I said of Leuites vsed to the iudgment of ciuil causes for that they could not al be employed to the ministery considering that so there should haue bene almoste for euery xijmeÌ„ a Leuite is barely denied and nether the reason which I browght coÌ„futed nether any of his set down whereunto may be added the reason why the Leuites

not occupied in the church ministery were willingly taken for assistance in ciuil iudgmentes which is because they being better acquainted with the law of god then commonly the rest of the tribes were consequently better seen in the iudicials by which the common wealth of the Israelites was gouerned And that al the Leuites were not applied vnto the ministery may appear by the example of a Banaias the high Priests son high Constable or general of the host Before I come to the Ans arguments I desire the reader to obserue that althowgh he hath owt of the auncient writers borowed certein places to iust with those which I haue taken from thence yet owt of the holy scripture whereof he should haue made the base and foundation of his defence he hath browght nothing But let vs see them such as they are Eusebius saith he calleth Constantine as yt were a general Bishop That maketh no more to proue that the iudgment of ecclesiastical causes belonged vnto him then that he calleth hym a Doctor apointed of god to al nations proueth hym to haue bene a publik preacher of the word Rather as he was called a Doctor because that the doctrine taught by the Bishops was maynteyned by his autority not for that he taught him self so he is called the general Bishop for that he caused them to meet in Councel protected them when they were there kept them in peace maynteyned with his princely autority that which was godlyly decreed not for that he determined the matters hym self This may also appear in his epistle to the churches where willing to draw credit vnto the decrees of that Councel he doeth not say that they were his but the Bishops decrees And in deed yt might more iustly be concluded that he was a minister of the word by the one place then by the other that he made ecclesiastical lawes of his own autority considering that the place browght by him is delaied and laid in water by that he calleth him not a Bishop simply but as it vuere a Bishop where as the other place is not so And it is further to be obserued that the word Bishop is taken some tymes generally for any ouerseer and not onely for the church Minister In which respect Constantyne calleth him self a Bishop but putteth a manifest difference betwene his Bishoprik and theirs namely that the church officers were Bishops and ouerseers of thinges vuithin the church and he Bishop or ouerseer of those that vuere vuithovut the church whereby he clearly also establisheth the distinction of the church and common wealth vnder a Christian Prince Hether also may be referred that of Hillary which exhorteth Constans that he would prouide that the gouernours of his prouinces vnder hym should not praesume to take vpon them the iudgment of ecclesiastical causes where also the same autor further affirmeth that the common vuealth matters onely belonged vnto them Likewise that Ambrose saith That Palaces belong vnto the Emperour but the churches vnto the Minister and that he had autority of the commoÌ„ vualles of the city and not ouer holy thinges That of Constantyne and after of Iustinian making lawes touching godlines as against the worship of Images c. is idle considering that it is nothing but an execution of that which is commanded of god and withowt the compas of thinges which fal into the church is consultation For in thinges which he is assured of to be the vnuariable truth of god who douteth but that he not onely may but owght also to mayntein them with his autority Sauing that if there be a general dowt raised what is the law of god therein to the end that the the truth may haue better cours and that the conscience may be prouided for there is herein great caution to be vsed For least that which is godly should be doeÌ„ vngodlily that is to say ignorantly or doutfully and to the end that the autors of error being conuinced may doe les hurt and finally to the end that the punishmeÌ„t of the obstinate may be boeth more iust and les grudged at yt belongeth vnto the ciuil Magistrate to cal as did the godly Emperour CoÌ„stantine a councel of the ministery by whome as by gods interpreters the people may receiu a resolution warranted by substantial groundes owt of hys word Yet so far it is that we suspend vpon the Councels determination the putting in execution of such as he is assured to be the vnchangeable commaundementes of god that boeth before in and after the Councel yea and howsoeuer they determin we esteme that the Prince owght to procure by al godly and conuenient meanes that such lawes of god haue place at the least that the contrary be not suffered not so much as if it might be one onely hower That owt of the Chalcedon councel that the orders there made were by the Emperours autority because they cried long life vnto the Senate and Emperour is vnsufficient For althowgh it was vnmeet that in such graue meetinges there should be vsed such shoutinges as then appeared to haue bene the maner when they liked or misliked any thing which was more fit for stage playes then for such a graue company yet who seeth not that there was cause enowgh why thanckes should be giuen vnto the Emperour for his care his paynes and his charges in calling and confirming yt althowgh nether the iudgment were his nor apperteyned vnto him Now touching the places alledged by me in the first gros ouersight there is none seing there is not a word in that place which enforceth external buildinges For in steed of that which is turned buildinges the greek hath vuorkes or affaiers also for that of selling the buildinges there is no such thing in the greek nether as I think owght to be For the place which no dowt is corrupt in Eusebius may be restored owt of Theodoret that reporteth the same epistle Howbeit whether it be vnderstood of the owtward or inward buildinges I wil not striue and I rather think that it is of the owâ—ward then otherwise considering that that seemeth to be more simple To the second where the Emperour confesseth the Bishops matters not to pertayn to him he answereth that the Emperour of modesty refused the determination But what modesty is yt to say that which is vntrue or what modesty to affirm that yt belongeth not to hym which is by yow his office and committed to him of god especially vnto his subiectes For it might haue more colour if yow had said that it were modesty for a Bishop to say that to administer the word and sacramentes belong not to hym but vnto the Prince Beside that yf he would haue shewed forth modesty he would haue rather said that he was not worthy then to say that it vuas not lavuful for him to doe yt To that that the Emperour vuould not determin of Arius heresy but committed

of the people admitted vnto these consultations when further it is found that they haue had their consent there and sometyme also their speach with far greater reason may the Christian Magistrate boeth be assistant and haue his voice in such assemblies That then which we giue vnto the ministery in such church consultations which are not of the dayly ministery as Synods be is boeth a fore consultation as we see to haue bene doen in the scripture to the end that the matter being digested and as it were cut owt and prepared a forehand yt might be the better handled in a fuller assembly as also the direction and moderation of that meeting where these matters are defined and concluded of But in the cheef point he is sure we agree with the papistes euen as the godly and learned writers ould and of our age doe agree with them and none otherwise whereof two the D. is him self constreyned to coÌ„fes meaning as I think M. Caluin and Beza whether he doe or no so they are as may appear And how durst he say of those two vpon no ground that in this article of the Magistrats autority they differ nothing from the papistes For so he saith in effect when he saith so of vs whome he is compelled to confes to haue their assistance in this cause Althowgh they are not as he saith alone but haue diuers others bearing them company Amongest whome M. Bucer may seem to be worthy of the cheif place which affirmeth that the magistrate ovught not to administer the discipline of the church So that so far as we consent here with the papistes we doe it as in the article of the holy Trinity where we haue with warrant of the word of god the approbation also of the best we hould with them thinges in common in which respect we are not afraid to confes that we consent in some point with the Iues and Turkes or they rather with vs But yow are fouÌ„d in diuers places in their priuate orcheyardes gathering your frute of trees which their handes did first plant and from thence yow bring your stockes which yow would place in the lords vineyard And euen in this question whome haue yow opposed vnto these two which yow coÌ„fes of our iudgmeÌ„t yow pretend in deed the Bishops of Sarisbury and winchester with M. Nowel but for two of them I haue shewed that they are in effect of the same iudgment we are assured I am they are further from yow then from vs of the third also albeit I haue not seen hym I perswade my self likewise There remaineth onely Musculus whose saying if I should deny not to be charged vpon vs but on the papistes onely seing we doe not deny altogither as they doe that he hath autority to make church lawes yow se we haue hould which yow can not easely put vs from But because when I confessed some of contrary iudgment I meant him at the least as one which if he thowght as we did not sufficiently expres yt let vs graunt yow this reed to ride vpon and to bear your self vp in this great triumph And let it be graunted yow to make your faut seem so much the les that yow haue one learned man of the same iudgment with yow That I haue no other reasons then the papistes is vntrue at least yow shew yt not And I may holily profes and in the presence of god that I went not to the papistes for them but in reading the scriptures and the autors them selues obserued them Nether could the papistes abusing them to the maintenance of their tyranny ouer Princes and the whole church affray me to vse them as I haue no more then they affraied M. Caluin and others which haue vsed of them in like maner Of al which matter the reader may vnderstand how vnworthy owtcries they be which he so ofteÌ„ raiseth against vs that we giue no more to a godly Christian magistrate then to the Turk or Nero with such like For who wil communicate the church matters with Nero open to hym the necessity of houlding a Councel desire his confirmation of the church orders pray his aid in the maynteyning them cal vpon him aswel for making them where the lawful ministery faileth as for redres of the euil Yt is trw the Turk and Nero owght to doe al these euen as they owght to doe whatsoeuer belongeth vnto a godly Christian Prince for the leauing of which vndoen much more for doeyng the contrary the wrath of the lord resteth vpon them and theirs But for as much as they profes enmity of the truth as they must want boeth the honour in this world and reward in the world to come which the lord giueth vnto a Christian magistrate so the church must paciently bear the want of these thinges vnder the one which she enioyeth vnder the other To end this matter seing the church and common wealth are distinguished aswel vnder a Christian Prince as vnder an vnchristian and that thereof foloweth the distinctioÌ„ one from another not onely of the lower but also of the higher members which are the gouernours in boeth the bodies seing also the lord hath appointed the Ministers to be ouer the matters perteyning to him self Seing further the ministery of the church is by calling and giftes incideÌ„t thereunto the fittest Iudg of the church matters last of al seing the auncient practis of the church houldeth vp her hand hereunto I conclude that as wel in the decision of the doctrine as in the chois of the variable ceremonies of the church the principal autority beloÌ„geth vnto the ministery The rest of the sections in this tractate as those which require no reply I wil not towch but leau them to the readers iudgment THE THIRTINTH AND LAST TRACTATE AND NINTH VVITH THE D. beginning page 474 of the inconuenience of the Ceremonyes vsed in the church of England deuided into tvuo partes the first vuhereof is of the general fautes the other of the particuler THe doctrine and discipline of the church as the weightiest thinges owght especially to be looked vnto but the ceremonies also as mynt and comyn owght not to be neglected For if honest matrones haue regard to the smalest part of the attire of their daughters that yt be nether sluttish nor gawish nor after the maner of harlots much more owght that care to be taken for the church of god that by her comely and maidenlike apparel she may content eueÌ„ the eyes of al which loue her spiritual chastity And althowgh the corruptions in them stryke not strayt to the heart yet as geÌ„til poisons they consume by little and little which is rather to be takeÌ„ heed vnto for that the harm they doe is to the moste part so insensible that the church may seem to dy hereon almoste withowt any grief or sens of yt or goe away as yt were in a sleap Hereupon it commeth that this part hath before

sermon the tyme wil be longer then the age of some and infirmities of other some can ordinaryly wel bear whereuÌ„to also if another hower at the least be added for the celebration of the holy communion he may see that ether the preaching must be abbridged or not so due regard had of mens infirmityes Beside this there is to be considered the common infirmity wherby throwgh such continuance the powers of the minde standing so long bent are dulled and often also a moste daÌ„gerous lothsomenes occasioned Against which our church as others haue doen should by a godly policy haue prouided where for this cause the whole Leiturgy or seruice is not ordinarily aboue an hower and a half Nether let any here obiect the papistes long seruice For beside that the rage of Idolaters hath alwayes bene more set on fire in the fals worship then the zeal of gods people in the tru yt owght to be considered that their prayer was more a lip-labour then any exercise of the minde and their churches rather stages to represent gay shewes vnto the eyes pleasant soundes vnto the eares and swete smels vnto the nose then any how 's for the children of god to meet in abowt any earnest work and also that they had respite betwene their Mattins and Mas. In the second reason he asketh whether a childe of ten year ould may minister the sacramentes c. no for sooth but yet as wel as he which can but barely read yf he haue the same calling which being that which I affirmed he is not able to moue with one word of reason After he supposeth of me as yf I had sayd that the book maynteineth an vnpreaching ministery because a childe can read yt adding that so I may say of the Bible because a childe can read yt also which is to open an vntruth For my reason is not because a childe of ten years can read yt but because yt requireth nothing to be doen by a Minister which such a childe can not doe And if the holy Bible which is far from yt should permit that one which can but read yt might be made a Minister or required no more of hym then that he should be able to read yt then I might wel say that the Bible maynteined an vnpreaching ministery Yf the order of the church doe not permit this then the charge lieth vpon the Bishops neckes which withowt any warrant haue so bouldly enterprised such a shameful act part of the next diuision is answered in this part the residue with the two next after yt in the former part of this book THE FOVRTH CHAPTER of the first part TO a third faut assigned in that the fruit that might othervuise be taken of the seruice is not receiued by reason that the minister readeth some in the hether some in the vpper part of the chauncel as far from the people as the vual vuil let hym goe he crieth owt of impudency corruption and falsifying for leauing owt these wordes except yt shal be othervuise determined by the Ordinary of the place Alas how should I be free or what armour may be giuen me against these vntrue accusations which could not escape the here For in the very next diuisioÌ„ I expresly mention this exception which he hath mangled and cut of from this diuision belike to the end there might be place to this surmise But vnto the reasons that yt renueth the fashion of the leuitical Priest vuhich vuithdrvu hym self from the people to talk vuith god alone Also that yf it be for the most edification that some part of the seruice should be said in the body of the church that then yt is not so vuheÌ„ other some is said in the nether some in the further end of the chauncel and other some in the further end of the same church Agayn that yf yt be expedient that he should haue his face tovuards the people in reading of some yt is vnmeet to haue his bakturned to them in other some last of al to the vndecency in trudging from place to place I say to al these reasons he answereth nothing worth the naming But the sum of his defence is that the Bishop hath power to order yt to the moste edification wherein how vnlawful yt is that he alone should haue the order hereof is before declared and how daungerous it is let the practis in this point be iudg For I am assuredly perswaded that the tenth church in England hath not al the seruice said in that place where the whole church may best hear yt And withal note as I said what a shameful disorder is committed in a matter so easely remedied The place of S. Luke is an vnchaÌ„geable rule to teach that al that which is doen in the church owght to be doen where it may be best heard for which cause I alledged yt his cauil of the place of the font said of me to be at the church dore in steed that I should haue said ouer against the church door is vnworthy the answer especially coÌ„sidering that I spake more fauorably for the book theÌ„ he which by this answer sendeth the minister for baptim beneath the church door And so also I leau to the iudgmeÌ„t of the reader what was the end of him that penned the book in this behalf seing he could hardly be ignorant that the places vsed customably in Popery were not the aptest for the vnderstanding of the hearers And this boeth separatioÌ„ of the Minister by Chauncel as Monckish as also the often shifting of the Ministers place as a thiÌ„g very absurd M. Bucer boeth generally in al places and particulerly in our church doeth coÌ„demn Ambrose hath bene answered as for M. Caluin he sheweth that althowgh our slaknes to beleue be euil which is cause that one sweareth yet that the oth is lawful considering that the vse of many thinges is pure vuhich proceed of an euil beginning whereby the reader may see how shamefully he would abuse hym for the slaknes of beleuiÌ„g which is the original of the oth can neuer be pure and the lawful oth occasioned hereon can neuer be but pure So that where M. Caluin referreth the pure vse vnto a thing diuers from the corrupt beginning and simply good the Ans referreth yt to the corcorrupt beginning it self his cauil of my vntrue dealing for changing his word good into not euil is vnworthy any answer THE SECOND PART OF this Tractate THE FIRST CHAPTER VVHEREOF being of holy daies is deuided into tvuo partes THE FIRST PART OF THE FIrst chapter of the ceremony of the Easter Natiuity and Vuhitson holy dayes TTe Treatise of the general fautes being ended I come to the particuler where I pas the eight first diuisions as those which haue no matter ether worth or requiring answer Before I come to the ninth which is of the prayers I wil dispatch the treatise of the holy dayes as it lieth page 538 of

Vuhat force there ys in the name of saintes dayes to make men beleue that they are instituted to their honour let the reader iudg of that which I haue written How much more doe they confirm this when boeth the corrupt custome and doctrine in popery hath forestalled the peoples mindes with that opinion whereunto his answer that I might much better reason against the names of Sonday and Moneday ys vntrue For first the vse of such thinges is not so free in ecclesiastical matters as in ciuil affaires Secondly our people hath not bene nusled vp in that filth of worshipping the Sun and Mone as they haue bene of the saintes in so much as the learned set apart there are few which know that there were euer any dayes obserued in the honour of the Sun or Mone Yf they had bene so nusled who seeth not but that yt had bene moste coÌ„uenient for the rooting owt of that Idolatry to haue made a change of these names Thirdly yt ys knowen that good men after the example of Dauid which would not once defile his lippes with naming the Idols or Idolatrous thinges except yt were with detestation boeth absteyn from such names as much as the common vse wil suffer and desire the abolishment of them To my reason that as the lordes holy dayes are taken to be instituted to his honour so the saintes holy dayes may easely be thovught of the ruder sort to be instituted to their honour he answereth that the lords holy dayes are so called especially because the scriptures concerning hym are then red which is no answer For yf hys answer were true yet yt confessing by the way that they are taken in part to be instituted to the lords honour grauÌ„teth forthwith that there ys occasion giuen to the ruder sort to think that the Saintes dayes are in part instituted to their honour As for hys sentence owt of Augustin yt ys a meer abusing of the tyme as yf euery thing instituted to the honour of god were a sacrament or that a thing doen in remembrance of the lord may not or rather ys not doeÌ„ to hys honour And here yt is to be noted that the D. ys taken in hys own nettes For he defendeth the keping holy of these Saintes dayes as they were vsed in the elder churches and as Ierome and Augustin mayntein theÌ„ Now hym self hath for hys defence alledged owt of Ierome that these dayes are obserued to the Martyrs and owt of Augustin that in them we honour the memoryes of martyrs Therefore hys escape that no man ys so mad as to think that by these dayes we doe any honour vnto the Saintes ys not onely an opeÌ„ vntruth but directly contrary to that hym self maynteyneth Vuhat ignorance is in the land for want of teaching I leau to the readers iudgment of that which hath bene said To that I alledged that althowgh there vuere teaching yet yt vuere good that these names should not help to vnteach he answereth not Howbeit he goeth further asking whether for euery particular mans ignorance or abusing of yt the churchis order must be changed He may wel know that yf there be one man which abuseth yt throwgh ignorance there are moe then a thowsand and yf there were but one onely yet seing that man ys in danger to wrake hym self at this rok owght not the church rather to change this name then to giue occasion of destroying hym for whome Christ hath died coÌ„sidering that of naming those holy dayes Saintes dayes there can be no fruit or profit assigned Hys exception against Augustins complaint of the multitude of Ceremonies that he speaketh not of holy dayes ys vnworthy of answer considering that he speaketh generally of al kinde of ceremonies likewise that he saith he speaketh of vnprofitable ceremonies For he disputeth simply against the multitude of Ceremonies vnder the gospel whereas yf they had bene but a few and yet vnprofitable he would therefore haue condemned them As for that he saith that ours are profitable and appoued by the custome of the whole church the first ys an asking of that in question the other ys an vntruth as doeth after appear Now whereas I said that in this ceremony of holy dayes vue excede euen the Iues he maketh hys accountes so that they as he saith had the greater numbre But what Auditor wil alow these accountes of yours First of al therfore yow must strike of the supposed holy day of Iudith for the reason shewed in another place likewise those of the Makabites as those whereof there is no certeinty and boeth Iudiths and the Makabites togither as those which yf euer they were houlden were houlden many hundreth yeares after the giuing of the law For the which cause the two dayes of Hesther althowgh they differ as far from the other as heauen from earth owght not to come into this account For this comparison is not instituted betwene vs and any estate of the Iues vnder the law but with the ordinary estate and with that which was giuen in mount Synay by the ministery of Moses For that is boeth S. Augustins meaning and yt is a fowl wart in the churches face vnder the gospel to be so ceremonius as the ordinary estate of the church was vnder the law There remayn onely three feastes of the Pasouer whitsontyde and the Tabernacles vnto euery one whereof yow ascribing seuen raise the sum of one and twenty holy dayes But here also yow are fowly ouer reckened For the first onely and the last day of euery of those three seueÌ„s were holy in the rest which were betwene them althowgh there were extraordinary sacrifices yet men might after diuine seruice folow their ordinary vocations Oneles therfore yow make a far other rowl of the Iuish holy dayes then yow haue doen hether toward yow see that my saying that vue haue more theÌ„ dubble as many holydayes as they ys mayntenable and deserueth no such censure as yow giue yt For any thing that I could euer learn we are by the lawes as much bownd from labour vpon the saints dayes as vpon the lords day wherein I report my self to that which may be knowen hereof the rest ys answered In the next diuision there is nothing but a manifest piller of popery with shameful owtrage vnto the holy gost in that he calleth the appeal to the scriptures and example of the Apostles from certeyn customes of the churches which were more then a hundreth yeares after Christ an vnlearned shift which is before towched In the next the testimony of Socrates ys faithfully cyted of me As for that he answereth that by euery one he meaneth not euery person but euery countrey or people alledging to that purpose another place in the same chapter where saith he ys put euery particuler people he ys abused For there is no more mention of people in that place then in that which I alledged Beside that in

pag. 536 against the particuler thankes giuing at the churching of wemen whereunto he answereth that there owght to be for this especially because yt is so dangerous and common yet yt is not so common as siknes which throwgh disobedience befalleth to men and wemen boeth nor so dangerous as a number of diseases owt of which one doeth not so likely escape as wemen owt of their trauail beside that the restoring of some to health towcheth the church nearer oftentymes then this As for his asking after scripture not able to answer the reasons grounded vpon the scripture yt is vnworthy the answering In the example of the Massilian heretikes that held that we should alwayes pray he doeth but abuse the tyme talking much but not towching the point wherefore I alledged yt let vs therefore return I alledged that the original of the Let any brovught in vpon occasion of some general mortality likevuise of certein confessions of the diuinity of our Sau. Christ vpon occasion of the detestable heresy of Arius ovught tovuching the ordinary vse of the church to ceas vuhen those euils vuere appeased whereunto he answereth that we are stil subiect to these mischeifes So were the elder churches before those euiles came and al other churches now as wel as ours yet nether did the elder churches then institute an extraordinary remedy before the mischeif nether doe other churches now continue yt after recouery And in deed herein yt is with the church of god as with mans body whereunto no wise physicion prescribeth an extraordinary diet but vpon some diseas present or apparantly approching other wise why are not there also extraordinary confessions and letanyes against al other detestable heresies and heauy iudgmentes which haue bene from the beginning of the world vnto thys day He answereth further that so the psalme made vpon special occasion should be now vnprofitable which is nothing so for they haue alwaies the same profit to be studied in to be red and preached vpoÌ„ which other scriptures haue and this for aduantage aboue the rest that they are to be sung as their name doeth declare But to make dayly prayers of them hand ouer head or otherwise then the present estate wherein we be doeth agree with the matter conteyned in them ys an abusing of them For how incoÌ„uenient ys yt that our church liuing vnder a godly Prince should in sted of a prayer for yt self say a psalm which complayneth of oppression by a TyraÌ„t Yea when the estate of the churches should be such as the psalm doeth expres yet considering that the prayers in the churches owght to be framed to the vnderstanding of the moste simplest and the psalmes haue maners of speaches which the learned them selues haue enowgh to doe to vnderstand yt is manifest that they are not the aptest formes of publik prayer That of the repetition of the articles of our belief is alledged to no purpose For yt is a short Sum of the whole Christian profession directed against no particular heresy but alike needful at al tymes To proue that gloria patri c may be oft repeated at one meeting he answereth that a good thing can not be to oft said which that I abyde in the former similitude is as much to say that a man can not take to many purgations And yf yt be so as he saith why is there any other thanckes giuing then this His reason that yt is a good thing ys not enowgh so much as to bring yt into the church much les to cause yt to be so oft repeated vnles also yt be so good that nothing can be for the tyme and place better Hether belongeth that of vayn repetitions in the end of the book where first with what face he denieth that he vnderstood his wordes wickedly wrested of the Geneua translation cyted by the admonition let the reader iudg of his wordes wherein rendring the reason of this charge he saith for the wordes of Christ be not as they translate them but c. Then let hym obserue that of diuers reasons vsed by me to establish that translation he answereth not so much as one To proue that long prayers are not forbidden which none denieth also that the true translation is that we should not bable much which ys in effect the same with that of Geneua he bringeth diuers autorityes but to proue that our Sau. Christ meant to condemn onely repetitions withowt faith or that he condemned not when one thing is ordinarily oft repeated in a smal tyme which be the pointes in question nether the 4 first testimonies nor the 2 section haue one word of As for that owt of M. Martyr yt proueth that multiplying of wordes withowt faith is babling but not that that onely is babling which to put vs from this place of S. Mathew owght to haue bene proued Nether doeth the example of our Sau. Christ repeating the same wordes thrise help hym For first yt appeareth not in how short space this was doen. Then yt is vnmeet of euery example of prayer made in some especial estate ether of exceding ioy or of exceding affliction to make a patern for the ordinary prayers of the church For when this repetition is engendred of a zeal which by this ioy or affliction as by more wood put vnder the furnais is made whotter then commonly yt vseth to be in the best of the children of god yt is apparant that where this strenght of zeal is not to send forth these repetitions and with a strong voice to cause as yt were this Ecco there as hypokritical they can not but displease the lord Therefore the ordinary and vsual prayers of the church owght to be so conceiued as al the children of god by that measure of zeal which the lord commonly departeth vnto them may be able to folow with affection Yf some member can by reason of such particular scholing as is before spoken ouershoot this commoÌ„ mark he hath his chamber at home alone as our Sa. Christ had his garden here where he may haue further scope But that the prayer of al the church should be framed vnto hys estate is no more conuenient then for that some one laboreth of the diseas of the gout al the whole church should haue an ordinary prayer to be deliuered from that diseas The same reason is of the thankes giuing by magnificat Benedictus and nunc dimittis which were made by occasion of certein particuler benefites no more to be vsed for ordinary prayers then the Aue Maria. whereuÌ„to he answereth that that pertayneth to the virgin onely euen so doe certein thinges conteyned in these psalmes ether agree to certein particular persons onely or els are such as can not agree to vs As to haue seen our Sa. Christ with bodily eyes to be called blessed of al generations to haue a son which should prepare the vuay to the son of god And therefore by his own answer these

Apostles tyme and after and to apply yt to this wherein first he cyteth Musculus which thincketh yt not vnlikely that the disciples repeated the hymn after our Sa. Christ to whome I answer that there is no likelyhood that the disciples repeated the whole song after him onely as the nature of some hymnes doeth require yt may be there was a common foot of the song wherewith the disciples answered vnto our S. Christ synging first And thys no dout is Musculus meaning That owt of Pliny is nothing to purpose yt being confessed that the whole church may sing psalmes with the Minister where also his obiection of dissent with my self in this point ys easely answered namely that the practis of the Apostolike church hauing bene such in the psalmes and not in the other prayers is cause enowgh why that which ys conuenient in one ys not so in the other Beside that there is no los of tyme in synging the psalmes considering that the people sing togither with the Minister Then he alledgeth Actes the 4 that in praying al the Apostles lifted vp their voices The greek is they vuith one accord lifted vp a voice to god not voices so that S. Luke noteth that there was but one voice amongest them al which because yt was with consent he doeth aptly cal the voice lifted vp of them al and wherewith they al prayed euen as he after attributeth the exhortation made by one of them towching the chois of Deacons vnto them al. Vuhere al must needes coÌ„fes that ether one onely spake in the name of al or which god forbid there shal be ascribed vnto the holy Apostles ether a chiledish folye whilest twelue one after another propounded the same wordes at one tyme and in one assembly or els a barbarous confusion whilest they spake al at once Here also he greatly forgetteth hym self For setting down that that part of prayer which consisted in confession owght especially to be repeated after the Minister his pretended examples are of that part of prayer which standeth in asking and thanckesgiuing so that yt seemeth by hys proofes that these should be especially repeated at the least that they should be as wel as the confession Against that alledged for vs of the practis of the church in Iustins tyme he answereth that I left owt vue al rise and pray togither which is to fond as thowgh our church prayed not with the mynister when yt onely attendeth vnto the prayers albeit yt reherseth them not after hym And this form of church prayer noted of Iustin ys noted also of Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria to consist in that the people attending to the prayers sounded Amen togither which may be also an answer to that of Basil The practis cyted owt of Chrysostome owght not to be admitted considering that in the same place he sheweth that as the Minister conceiued one prayer for the people so the people conceiued another diuers from yt for the Minister which how vnmeet yt is in the church of god and publikly hath bene before declared That I vsed that form in my sermons for any thing that I know I learned yt of the book which vse forsomuch as some yeares after whilest I yet preached I corrected in my self yt declareth that I first misliked and condemned my self in that point or euer I found faut with the book The next diuisioÌ„ I leau to the readers iudgment To this treatise belongeth that which commeth after of singing the psalmes syde by side where he requireth proof of that I alledged that yt is not enovugh to pray vuith the heart vuhen a maÌ„ may pray vuith the voice also which is proued by as many places as we are bidden to syng vnto the lord and in that the lord wil be serued with al the strenght we haue so that where nether inconuenience of ecclesiastical pollicy nor want of health or such like hynder there the lord contenteth not hym self with the heart oneâ—es the voice be giuen also And of this the example of Anna which hym self bringeth against me ys a manifest proof which wagged her lippes when for greif she could not speak owt His proof owt of the Corinthes as also whatsoeuer he hath in this diuision of contrariety with my self is a meer mispending of the tyme considering that I boeth added expresly that vue ovught to pray vuith the voice vuhere yt may be and had before declared the inconuenience of doeing so in the other prayers Vuhere I shewed that this kinde of synging ovught so much more to be suspected for that the Deuil hath goen about to get yt autority by deriuing yt partly from Ignatius partly from heauen he answereth that yf yt came from Ignatius as Socrates sayth yt is not the les to be estemed which is to induce the reader to beleue this fable that the Angels were heard to syng so from heauen For Socrates saith that Ignatius toke yt of them so that in this fable he had rather beleue Socrates whome before he accused of heresy then Theodoretus whom he wil not suffer to haue bene euer towched with heresy Hether perteineth that which is page 606 where vnder pretence of indifferent thinges he seemeth to alow of Organes which beside the popish abuse renueth Iudaism and hath now no thing perteyning to edification one of the rules wherby indifferent ceremonies should be squared His defence of his profane prouerb matching mad men wemen and children togither out of S. Paul calling the men of Crete lyars ys a shameful profanation of the scripture For where S. Paul set hys mark of one onely I le he setteth hys vpon the whole boeth sex of wemen and age of children throwgh the world And where S. Paul did yt by reason of hys ministery towardes them he doeth yt withowt Last of al where S. Paul did yt truly he doeth yt vntruly Vnto the vndecency of the scraping at the name of Iesus he answereth that the same is in hauking as yf the case were like the natural necessity requiring the one and no necessity requiring the other Nether ys there any vndecency in hauking yf as yt is meet euery man doe yt seuerally as his need moueth and not as somewhere yt is doen altogither That alledged of ingendring a greater estimation of the Son of god then of the father or holy gost in that his name is curtesied vnto and not the other he derideth but answer he can giue none Vuhere the reason is manifest especially with the simpler which esteme that better to which more honour is giuen so that where this is not beaten down by continual teaching yt can bread no other opinion And althowgh preaching did abownd yet the ceremonies owght to be conformable and not contrary to the doctrine beside the other inconuenience before noted After he saith yt hath continued many hundred yeares so hath popery And I beleue when he shal be driuen to shew the

antiquitity which he aduoucheth yt wil fal owt that he can fetch yt from not other head then from popery For as for that he alledgeth of the Christians which vsed yt because the Iues abiding other names of god could not abide yt yt ys nothing so considering that the Iues haue that name in great honour althowgh they haue not hym so to whom of right yt belongeth And in regard that yt was giuen to the son of god they hated the name of Christ as much and in some respect more because in sound yt is further of from their word then the name of Iesus That especially this curtesy should be made at the name of Iesus when the Gospel is red which conteineth the glad tydinges c. is a foul ouersight the confutation whereof I haue before noted which serueth also against the standing rather at the gospel then at the Epistle That also of subduing of al our spiritual enemyes by Christ c is friuolous seing that boeth god the father and the holy gost haue their work in our saluation althowgh afrer an other sort as wel as our Sa. Christ How absurd he is aswel in affirming that a Pastor may better haue two benefices to preach at then a Curate two cures to read at as also in his reason thereof let the reader iudg THE III. CHAPTER OF THE SEcond part of this treatise of ministring the holy sacramentes in priuate hovuses beginning pag. 510 of the D. book YT hath bene shewed that the administration of the word and Sacramentes owght to be publik and that they ceas not to be so euen then when for the distres of persecution the church is driueÌ„ to hould her assembly in a priuate how 's Here yt remayneth onely in questioÌ„ whether yt be conuenient that in the churchis peace the sacramentes for siknes sake should he ministred in priuate howses Vuhere to that alledged owt of S. Paul that he opposeth the congregation vuherein the lords supper should be houlden vnto a priuate hovus vuhere men satisfy their hunger he can answer nothing but repeateth that owt of Caluin which he idly alledged before I am content that the reader iudg whether boeth those absurdities which I layd vpoÌ„ hym folow of his rash answer As for that he replieth that our Sau. Christes preaching and S. Iohns baptizing openly proue not that the administring of the word and sacramentes should be publik because examples proue not yt is answered Beside that I haue shewed that yt hath commandement Another reason of his is because our Sau. Christ preached in priuate fâ—milies which is likewise answered That owt of Zuinglius that yt is not necessary to baptiz in the church I graunt for the case may be such that yt may be baptized in the fieldes but in a priuate how 's in this case of siknes where there be set and ordinary meetinges in the church I deny yt conuenient Yf he mean by not necessary that it is baptim althowgh yt be not ministred in the ordinary assembly I graunt yf he mean that yt ys not necessary to decency and good order his own wordes giue me answer enowgh For as the tyme maketh conuenience when yt is ministred so sone as yt may be commodiously or inconuenience when yt is differred longer so doeth the place Albeit S. Paul was a prisoner yet the Iaylor being conuerted would haue accorded hym what place he had iudged meetest for baptim therefore that example had bene more apt theÌ„ the other of Peter althowgh nether of them make any thing for yow As for that owt of Mathew 18 where two or three c to proue that two be enow to make a congregation wherein baptim may be ministred first yf it could come to pas that there were but two persons in the whole church one to baptiz the other to be baptized I dowt whether yt were meet to stay the baptim vntil we saw whether the lord would giue further encreas But that yt is conuenient that in our church yt should be ministred in the presens of two or three onely is a thing most vnworthy of the dignity of the holy Sacrament when as yf the ciuil administration of iudgment should be handled so cornerlike yt should worthely be suspected But what shal then be answered to the place of S. Mathew euen this that our Sau. Christ speaketh not there of the publik administring of the word and Sacramentes but of the proceeding in the church discipline against offences and of that part which was doen priuately For after he had tawght how from the admonition by one we owght to proceed vnto that which is made by two or three and so to the churchis hauing before ratified the proceeding of the church he autoriseth also by thys word the admonition which with inuocation of his name was giuen by those two or three â–ª promising that yt shal not be in vayn but haue effect that way which god hath disposed of whether yt be to conuersioÌ„ of the party or to further making hym inexcusable Yf it be asked why then our sauiour Christ did not also speak of the ratifying of the first admonition by one I answer that he spake of the effect of these two later admonitions not that the other should he withowt fruit but for the excellency of the effect of these before that Vuhich was also therfore needful to be made mention of more theÌ„ the first for so much as otherwise vpoÌ„ experience of the synners hardnes of heart in reiection of the first admonitioÌ„ he which gaue yt with the other one or two appointed for that matter throwgh dispair of his amendement might be beaten bak from proceding any further with hym To me acknowledging that in the tyme of persecution yt may be in a priuate hous as may also the publik preaching he answereth that the same may be doen in this necessity which he repeateth in his 6 diuision where stil he demauÌ„deth that in question For yt is in question whether there is any such necessity of baptim as for the ministring thereof the common decent order should be broken And verely by these kinde of speaches he playnly condemneth those churches ether of neglect or contempt of the holy sacramentes which suffer none to be administred but in the ordinary congregations Here I leau to the readers iudgment whether by this extraordinary administration there be more danger of confirming this error that children can not be saued yf they dy before they haue receiued baptim then the administring yt onely when the infantes may be conueniently browght to the church doeth confirm the error of the Anabaptistes which say that children may not be baptized vntil they come to age seing that by the dayly practis of the church in baptizing them there can not rise the least suspition of this later error In saying that I haue nether scripture reason nor Doctor he kepeth but his wont For scripture and reason

they may be otherwise quieted when they be tawght not to think that the working of assurance in their heartes is so tyed vnto the sacrameÌ„tes that withowt them the lord nether wil nor can comfort them but rather to consider that euen as when the Iues were depriued of the sacrament of the Sanctuary the lord promised that he hym self would be for a Sanctuary vnto them and supply the want thereof euen so he wil not be wanting vnto them which hauing a desire to be partakers of yt can not so conueniently be receiued thereunto putting them also in remembrance of the horrible abominations of priuate mas which came first in by occasion of these priuate communions as they are called Here let the reader take heed of an error which the D. hath let fal that we haue remission of synnes by communication vnto this Sacrament whereas remission of synnes receiued by faith alone and sealed vp in baptim must be had before we come to the Communion To the Councel vuhich forbiddeth the communion in priuate hovuses he answereth that yt meaneth vsually for that the vse was such in some places which is said withowt al proof or likelihood of truth whereby for a shift he sticketh not to slaunder whole auncient churches notwithstanding that he pretendeth sometyme such reuerence to one onely man as the reader before hath seen Then he opposeth the Nicen Councel which is that I preuented in the 2 diuision and in the fift shewed to make against hym After folow M. Bucers and Martyrs notes which if they weâ—e theirs and had bene for further assurance thereof tawght by them to look vpon the Son yet being the testimonies of men how learned and godly soeuer they are subiect to examination I wil not deny but they might be of that iudgment considering that I see M. Caluin to haue bene of the same which I therefore let the reader vnderstand that he may be diligenter in the examination of the reasons against yt and not to descend into our iudgment onles he be compelled by the matter yt self Althowgh yt is not ours alone but as he hath heard of others yea of diuers reformed churches where this is not admitted putting hym also in minde of boeth M. Caluins and Martyrs iudgmentes in the matter of Baptim that yt owght not to be in a priuate how 's nor withowt a sermon desiring hym further to consider whether certein reasons making against the one doe not strike vpon the other And in deed as in my iudgment ys is vnmeet to administer ether of the sacramentes in priuate howses so that is yet les tollerable in the holy supper which hath a special mark and representation of brotherly communion more then Baptim Here I pas by as a thing political rather then perteining to conscience the skare that may come by these priuate communions when the siknes as often commeth to pas is contagious As for that of Musculus yt is idle seing his approbation of yt is not made to appear and no man denieth but they that vsed yt in tymes past did yt for a good end THE FOVRTH CHAPTER OF this Tractate tovuching the ceremonies in Baptim pag. 607 of the D. book NOw follow the corruptioÌ„s in the sacrameÌ„ts apart and first of those in Baptim where in mayntenaÌ„ce of the questions ministred to young infantes which can not answer he would make vs beleue that the catholik writers as yt were the Gouldsmithes were in dout whether the Denis which he browght were good money or no whereas the contrariety in opinions ys betwene the Papistes and Protestantes His euidence to proue hym legitimat because these bookes be very auncient implieth that a number of horrible abuses are as auncient And therefore in sted of saying some falshood might be thrust in he should haue said some truth might be thrust in to giue credit to the rest considering that the purenes of the tong which he wrote in being set apart there are few thinges worthy ether of S. Pauls Scholer or of the Bishop of AtheÌ„s His defence by the Bishop of Sarisbury is answered The not answering also of my reply against Denis vnder pretence of a flout is before noted To the reasons against Augustines kinde of speaking he can answer nothing onely he mispendeth the tyme in prouing that baptim is the seal of faith which none denieth but that yt is called faith which he owght to haue proued he could not finde a word For that also that Augustin maketh for the interrogatories ministred to infantes beside strong affirmations he can bring nothing As for that alledged by me yt is most manifest in another place where Augustin sheweth yt to haue bene the vse that the minister asked of the parentes vuhether the childe beleued they ansvuering that yt did so that althowgh this were an abuse yet yt is much different from the maner which we haue receyued from the papistes and more simple then yt In the next diuision he answereth nothing to the purpose nor in the next to yt sauing onely a vayn cauil for whereas I meant the true faith he flyeth to that of Simon Magus which was counterfait In the next where yt was alledged that al ovught to be doen simply and playnly in the church he can answer nothing onely yt may serue for a colorable cavil that as the book wil haue the infantes promise by the godfathers so saith he the Adm. wil haue infantes desire by their parentes For albeit the Adm. wordes might haue bene warelier set yet it is but a hauking after syllables when their meaning is playn that there owght to be no such strange and vnwonted kinde of speaches in the common seruice I pas by Musculus autority flat far vs but M. Bucers wherewith the D. often presseth vs so sore must not be forgotteÌ„ which doeth precisely finde faut with our seruice book herein His second chapter requireth no answer For as for his exception that we alow of godfathers deuised by the Pope yt is answered beside that yt was not by his own account deuised by a Bishop of Rome which was Antichrist The contrariety with my self in that page 18 I denying that the vsage of a thing by the whole church can giue yt such autority as that yt may not be abrogated yet here alow of godfathers as of an indifferent ceremony considering that the churches haue generally receiued yt is vnworthy of answer For there is great difference in allowing the churchis autority absolutely or withowt condition and in reuerencing her autority in an indifferent matter in yt self and towching the vse profitable when yt is vsed accordingly so that a blinde man might see how I might iustly improue the first and approue the last In the there first diuisions of his second chapter pag. 614 there is no answer worthy the reply Vuhere he would prefer crossing before milk in baptim he doeth yt contrary to Tertullians autority

of whom onely his reason dependeth which wil haue them alike necessary His reasons that the milk indured not long nor was general besides that they are popish reasons are not proued and may be in part confuted in that yt had not onely place in Afrik but in the west partes not onely in Tertullians but also in Ieromes tyme At the least the anointing in Baptim was as general and of as long continuance as the cros For being in Afrik in Tertullians tyme yt spred yt self into the east and west churches with such continuance as from them yt passed into the pâ—pish synagoges aswel as crossing To this defence may wel be referred that which he answereth pag. 275 vnto my obiection that Sensors Tapers holy bread c are euen of the same coate that the surplice is of and to be measured with the same pole for yf his answer there which is that the surplice is indiffereÌ„t but that these thinges be falsly accouÌ„ted indifferent be good yt wil help to succour his weaknes here and yf yt be shewed nawght here nether wil yt serue hym there Let hym tel vs therefore why the surplice and the cros with their significations should be indifferent and oyl and tapers c with their interpretations falsly counted indifferent Here we must beleue hym of his word for reason he hath none Howbeit page 291 where he repeateth this again he pretendeth this reason that the one haue an opinion of saluation and of worship annexed al which saith he we remoue from these orders which sauing that yt is against hym self is to no purpose For in the first part of his answer he giueth to vnderstand that the papistes shameful abuse of these thinges is cause enowgh to make them now vnindifferent which is contrary to the whole cours of his defence and in the later part of his answer he giueth to vnderstand that their oyl tapers censors holy bread and holy water may be browght into our church so that the opinion of saluation and worship be by a publik and solemn protestation of the indifferency of them remoued Vâ—ho knoweth not also that the abuse of the papistes hath bene as great and rather greater in the cros especially by opinion of saluation and worship then euer were the tapers or sensors whereupon yt is manifest that the D. herein can make no more distinction or difference betwene the cros and the surplice with oyl and tapers c then he vhich chaulketh â–ª as they say a vuhite lyne vpon a vuhite vual Let vs therfore return In the next diuision to diuers reasons against this ceremony in Baptim boeth simply and in respect of the present tyme he answereth not a word onely he passeth the tyme in shewing how the papistes vsed yt otherwise then we doe which is not in question In the next to that alledged of the signification making yt more popish he answereth that the papistes did not declare the signification and that they were therefore dumb with them as thowgh their pulpites rung not oftentymes of such vnsauory voices or that a number of the simpler papistes knw not this popish deuinity To that that yt bringeth in a nue vuord into the church he answereth that there is nothing against yt in the word which is vntrue For althowgh the ceremony of crossing were conuenient yet to rayse a doctrine of yt is vnlawful for asmuch as yt is not enowgh to teach the truth vnles yt be truly tawght and that is onely owt of the word of god Now let hym shew a word of god that two lynes laid croswise signifieth that we should not be ashamed of the passion or cros of Christ Hetherto belongeth that which he hath 291 towching the surplice where yt appeareth that his defence in this cause is spekled and of diuers colours For there in the first section he giueth playnly to vnderstand that he aloweth not that a man should draw any such signification from the apparel as the admonition doeth from sitting at the lords supper Now the signification yt bringeth of rest and of a ful finishing throvugh Christ of al the ceremonial lavu and of a perfect redemption vurovught that giueth rest for euer ys a holy doctrine therefore yt foloweth that he wil not haue so much as an holy and an agreable doctrine vnto the rest of the scriptures fetched owt of the wearing of the apparel which is the same thing which I affirm namely that yt is not enowgh that the thiÌ„g signified be accordiÌ„g to the scripture onles the significatioÌ„ yt self be raised and grouÌ„ded of the scripture So that hereby he hath vtterly ouerthroweÌ„ hym self not onely in the signification of the apparel but also in this of the cros and that after of the ring For by the same reason that he misliketh al such signification in the one he must needes mislike yt in the other I answer the supposed reason of M. Martyr directly For â—eing yt buildeth the wearing of a white surplice vpon that the Ministers are called angels yt must folow that the same cause that moueth the scripture to bring in the Angels clad in white must be the lesson that the Ministers haue to learn of their white apparel which whether yt be purenes or glory or boeth yt being a true representation in them is as I said a lying sign in the Ministers which are miserable and sinful men Herein also to that which I obiected that by the same reason the Ministers should vuear vuinges because the Angels are so described he can answer nothing whereunto ad that hereof there is yet more cause For the white apparel which the Angels wore was no signification of their office but of their pure and glorious nature wherein they were created and wherein they stil remain whereas the winges shadow forth their office which is that they are swift messengers of god in al thinges whereunto they are sent Therefore seing this reason wil haue the coÌ„formity betwene the heaueÌ„ly spirites and Ministers of the gospel to stand in respect of their office their winges being a picture of their office and not the whitenes of apparel yt foloweth that the conformity should be rather in the winges then in the whitenes of apparel To that which I alledged against them which make yt a ciuil matter that by this signification yt is made ecclesiastical he opposeth that a graue apparel putteth vs in minde of grauity Yâ— doeth so and that is no ciuil nor yet ecclesiastical but a diuine order that by how much a man hath obteyned at the hand of god such an estate or dignity as requireth such apparel by so much he is bound in the whole cours of hys lyfe by modesty and grauity to shew hym self thankful whereof euen his table better furnished then other mens owght likewise to put hym in remembrance And these thinges haue a perpetual conuenience which can not be changed As for the seueral habites of degrees

elder church was such 109 110. whether refer that where they meddled with ether the administration of the word or Sacraments they did yt by a nw coÌ„mission and not by vertu of the Deaconship 109. Also of the godly learned of our age M. Bucer Caluin Martyr Beza 99 109 113. The Deaconship owght to be in euery Church 113 114. Likewise vnder a Christian Magistrate 100 111 112 113. Tractate the eleuenth page 116. Of the corruptions in doctrine about the holy Sacraments the first chapter whereof is against the sacriledg of priuate persons wemen especially in administring baptim because Yt confirmeth the error of the condeÌ„natioÌ„ of theÌ„ which dy withowt baptim 133. when as the want of baptim oneles yt be with neglect or coÌ„temt is not onely no probable sign of condemnation or cause why we are no Christians but also is in no respect praeiudicial and where that neglect or coÌ„temt is which can be none when yt is with al conuenient speed browght to be baptized by the publik minister in the congregation yt returneth vpon the parents onely 124 125 134 135. Yt is void which is so ministred 134. because the washing from our synnes coming onely froÌ„ our Sa. Christ to haue confirmation of our faith by this sacrameÌ„t yt is required that yt be ministred by hym whome he hath set in his place 138 139. As the princis seal stollen and set to by one to whome yt belongeth not bringeth no security c. 139. whether refer that yt is more lawfully administred by a minister which is an heretik then by a priuate person which is a catholik 131. Also that not to haue he rein chois of hym that administreth the sacrament approcheth to the dotage of the papists in the Shepards consecration 138. Hether refer that the keping of the wordes I baptiz the in the name c. are not onely of the substance of baptim 136 137 138. As he that propoundeth the word withowt vocation preacheth not 141 142. As he that taketh part of the wordes of the scripture passing by another part propoundeth not the scripture but a devise of his own brain 141. As the communicatioÌ„ in bread withowt the cup is no supper of the lord 140. As a priuate man which killing a murtherer executeth no iustice but is hym self a murtherer 139. As the seal of the same matter and figure with the Princis withowt his autoritie is none of his 139. God hath instituted that those onely should baptiz which haue that wemen can not vocation to preach 116 117. Hether refer the making of the Ark 117 118. Also of S. Paul which hauing commission to preach as a thing annexed to preaching administred baptim 118 119. further that otherwise there should be no commandement in the scripture to hinder that wemen may not aswel be taken to the ordinary administration of the sacramentes as men 118 119. Hether also refer that alledged of the wemens preaching 122 123. of Pauls baptizing and others at the commandement of Peter withowt a calling 119 120 121. Origins example 130 131. None may take honor vnto hym self but he that is called as was Aron 128. No not so much as in priuate howses althowgh they may teach privately 124. Nor in the tyme of the supposed necessity 128 129 130 132. Hether refer that of Sephora 126 127 The iudgmeÌ„t of the godly learned boeth auÌ„cieÌ„t and of our tyme CouÌ„cel of Carthage 132 Cyprian Chrysostome 130 Caluin 117 Bullinger 133 Beza 130. Infantes of boeth parents Papists owght not to be baptized 142. The second chapter of the corruptions in the sacrament of the holy supper 144. Against the receiuing by two or three with vs 144 145 146. Knowen papists not to be admitted much les comppelled to the supper 147 148. Examination of those whose knowledg in the principal points of religion is douted of is commanded in the scriptures 148 149 150. The tvuelfth Tractate page 151. The administration of the church matters vnder a Christian Magistrate doeth ordinarily and principally belong vnto the church officers because By the word of god the matters perteining vnto god are committed vnto the Priests and Leuites the matters perteining vnto the common wealth being committed to Ciuil persons 152 153 154. Nether maketh yt against this that certein Leuites handled common wealth matters 154 or that certein kinges determined of church matters 166 The church gouernours are by calling the fittest to determinyn of them 158 159. whether refer that the scripture requireth not of the ciuil magistrate that he should be able to conuince an heretik The church lawes are called the Bishops and not the Emperours decrees 155 156. Althowgh yt belong vnto the Magistrate to make lawes for a Christian common wealth yet yt foloweth not thereof that he may make lawes for the church the distinction of the church and common wealth remaining euen vnder a Christian magistrate pa. 151 152. Althowgh in confused tymes yet not in wel ordered 165 166. Yt is one thing to make lawes for the church another thing to put in execution the lawes alredy made whether deuine or ecclesiastical so that althowgh the later beloÌ„g vnto the Magistrate yet thereof foloweth not that the former doeth so 153 156 161. The danger of the Ministers erring in the determination of these matters letteth not this right of theirs 167. Nor that the papists hould some point herein with vs from whome notwithstanding euen in this cause we differ manifoldly 164 165 166 167. The learnedest and godliest boeth ould and nw confirm yt Constantine the great 157 163 Hillary 155 156 Ambrose 156 161 and other bishops of his tyme 162 Augustine 163 Bucer Caluin Beza 168 the Bishop of Salisbury 159 162 Nowel 159 euen the D. hym self 164 The thirtinth Tractate Of the indifferent ceremonyes the frute and necessitie whereof is shewed 171. The former part whereof is of the ceremonies in general The first chapter of which former part is that the church of Christ owght not to be like in ceremonies vnto the synagog of Antichrist because The Apostles conformed the Gentiles to the lwes not contrariwise 172 The lord seuered his people from prophane nations in thinges otherwise indifferent 172 Especially from those with whose corruptions in religioÌ„ they were entangled and with whome they lyued and had occasioÌ„ of conuersation in which respect yt is les danger for vs to be like in this point vnto the Turkes theÌ„ vnto the Papistes 172 173 174. The conformitye offendeth the papistes 177 namely in that they take occasion of speaking euil of our religion as if it yt could not staÌ„d withowt the ayd of their ceremonies 178 179. Also that thereby they conceyue hope of bringing in again their other corruptions whereby they hardeÌ„ theÌ„ selues in their error likewise that they ascribe holynes to them 79 180. whether refer that yt is no sufficient exception that the people be warned of the abvse by preaching 177 178. Yt bringeth greif of mynde to many that are godly myneded and to the weaker sort occasion of a moste dangerous fal 180. Yt aedifieth not 180 181. The popish ceremonies haue pomp annexed 180 181. Euen as to establish the doctrine and discipline of the gospel the Antichristian must be removed so to remedy the infection crept in by the ceremonies they also owght to be removed 174. The godly and learned boeth ould and of our tyme confirm yt The councel of Laodicea of Braccara 176 177. TertulliaÌ„ 175. ConstaÌ„tine the great 175 176. The Bishop of Salesbury 177. Nether is the decree of any church of that autority as to binde vs that euen in the matter of ceremonies her iudgmeÌ„t should not be examined by the word of god The second Chapter Of the first part of this tractate that the churches owght to be like one to another in ceremonies pag. 142. As the churches in the Apostles times and after in the primitive church 142. As the children and seruantes of noble men goe in one liuery 142. How this may be doen 142 143. Althowgh the churches owght not to fal owt abowt yt nor men make a departure from the church for want hereof yet the church to the end she may correct yt owght to be tould of her faut in this behalf p. 143 144. The third chapter That the seruice book after a sort mainteineth an vnpreaching ministery 184. Partly throwgh the lenght of prayers 184 185. But especially in contenting yt self with a Mynister which can doe no more theÌ„ a childe of ten yeares ould 185. Or els the Bishop ys yet more gilty which maketh such Ministers withowt warrant ether of god or man ib. The fourth chapter That the frute that might be is not receiued p. 186 Throwgh the change of the place and gestures of the minister which hinder the vnderstanding of the people renw the leuitical Priesthood is vncomely aÌ„d according to M. Bucer boeth absurd and munkish page 186 187. That the order hereof is dangerously left in the Bishops discretion 187. The second part Of this Tractate of the particuler fautes in our ceremonies The first part Of the first chapter thereof is of abrogating the feastes of the Natiuitie Easter and whitsonday pa. 188. For the superstition crept into meÌ„s myndes of them especially when they are not necessary pa. 185 the superstition also being not so wel remedied by preaching onely 189. They restrain the benefites of Christ vnto the tyme they are houlden in pa. 190. In appointing of holy dayes regard must be had not onely to the riche which may withowt their hinderance abstein from labor but vnto the poorest 192 193. The church may appoint standing tymes for the publik seruice of god and vpon extraordinary causes whole holy dayes yet not therefore ordinarily command suche feastes 191 192. As ordinarily yt can not be ordeyned that men should work the dayes which god hath commanded to rest in so ordinarily yt should not be forbidden to labor in those dayes which god hath licensed to work in 193. The elder church left the feastes free 189 198. The second part Of the first chapter against Saintes dayes pag. 194.

omit that yow bring in S. Paul Ro. 3 saying that which he hath not The sentence is true but yow owght to make a difference betwene that he saith and that which is concluded of his saying especially seing yow haue althowgh vntruly twise charged me with the like To that of Tertullian commending the Gentiles vuhich vuould not vuittingly kepe any of the feastes of the ChristiaÌ„s and of the other side discoÌ„mending the Christians that kept the feastes of the Gentiles he answereth that they coÌ„municated with theÌ„ in their Idoles which is vntrue there being not a word cyted here by him self importing so much For to ceas froÌ„ labors the same dayes they did was not simply vnlawful He chargeth theÌ„ also vuith feasting on the same dayes vuhich they did also vuith sending of nueyeares giftes were these not thinges in theÌ„ selues indiffereÌ„t and onely condeÌ„ned of Tertullian because they were the ceremonies of prophane nations and doeth he not see how TertulliaÌ„ maketh with vs in that he preferreth the vse of the ceremonies of the Iues which are abrogated for that they were sometyme autorized of god to the ceremoÌ„ies which other prophane natioÌ„s had takeÌ„ vp of their own brayn This also may be vnderstood by the opposition he maketh of the coÌ„mendatioÌ„ of the Gentiles for seing Tert. coÌ„mendeth not the GeÌ„tiles for that they worshipped not god with the Christians but for that they would not admit the ceremonies of a religion contrary to their own to make the opposition answerable we must needes say that he rebuketh the Christians for that they vsed the ceremonies of a religion contrary to that they approued For further knowledg of Tertullians iudgment herein I refer the reader to that before written To that of CoÌ„staÌ„tin disalovuing for diuers causes that the ChristiaÌ„s â–ª hould hould the feast of Easter at that tyme vuhich the Iues did he saith that the East partes kept yt as the Iues which is no answer seing he sheweth not whether he alow of CoÌ„stantines iudgmeÌ„t or no. his secoÌ„d answer that he meaÌ„t we should haue nothing coÌ„mon with them repugnant to Christian liberty is vntrue seing in it self there was nothing more free then whether a feast should be kept vpon thursday or sonday His third reason that if he had generally misliked their ceremonies he would haue abrogated them cleaueth not togither In steed wherof he should haue said yf he had vtterly misliked ceremonies aÌ„d not their ceremonies For as for theirs he abrogated them not onely in propounding another end then they did but also in disanulling a number of ceremonies vsed in the keping thereof At the least this example teacheth that if we wil hould holydayes and fishdayes with the papistes yet in detestation of their religion and for avoiding of superstition which hath crept into mens mindes by them we owght to change the dayes His last answer that as Constantyn changing the day and keping the feast put a difference betwene the Iues and Christians so we greatly differ from the papistes in the ceremonies taken from them ys likewise insufficient For althowgh that the Christians had kept the same day with the Iues yet their keping of the Easter should haue differed from the Iues keping as much as we differ now from the papistes in the ceremonies we haue from them But they thowght yt not enowgh to differ from the Iues in thinges meerly vnlawful onles they were also seuered from them by a ceremony which was in it self moste indifferent To that alledged owt of the Councels that they vuould not haue the Christians communicate in vnleauened bread because the Iues did nor dek their hovuses vuith green bovughes because the pagans did so he asketh to what purpose they be alledged yow know ful wel that these goe to the heart of your cause For what can be in yt self more indifferent then these two forbidden the Christians for that they were vsed of the enemies of the church And being a reason yt must be general of al such as the church may wel want much more of those in place wherof it may haue as good or better As for your often repeating that the ceremonies in question are godly comely decent yt is your ouldwont of deÌ„aunding the thing in question and an vndowted argument of your extreme pouerty That I cyted owt of the Councel of Braccaras is to be found in the councel and Tome I alledged Can. 74. And the 73 can which I cyted is generally against al ceremonies vsed by the paganes for the two next sections I refer the reader to that already answered And that this complaint of ours is iust in that we are thus constreined to be like vnto the papistes in any their ceremonies and that this cause onely owght to moue them to whome that belongeth to doe them away forasmuch as they are their ceremonies the reader may further see in the Bishop of Sarisbury which bringeth diuers proofes thereof directly against the D. and flatly for vs. To this place belongeth as that which is general the reason of the offence c before handled whereunto page 288 he addeth that those which are offended at this apparel take an offence where yt is not giuen which is as he meaneth an offence taken nothing els but a demaund of that in question And yt deceiueth hym that he considereth not that the Apostle teacheth that an offence is not onely giuen when an vnlawful thing is doen but also when a thing in yt self lawful is doen vnlawfully that is owt of tyme and place Howbeit yt is further said that the offence may be taken away by preaching but yt was also replied that yt is not so conuenient that the ministers hauing so many necessary pointes to bestow their tyme in should be driuen to spend it in giuing warning of not abusing them of which althowgh they were vsed at the best there is no profit whereunto his answer that the abuse of meates and costly apparel for Princes c. doeth not take away the vse being of thinges wherof there appeareth a manifest profit is partly before and further commeth to be answered in the diduction of the particulers The vntruth also of his surmise that I would hereby take away owt of the church the doctrine of indifferent thinges is manifest For I spake not of al ceremonies but of such as haue bene shamefully abused and whereof there is no manifest profit nether did I disalow the doctrine against the abuse of them seing I added that one sermon against their abuse ioyned vuith their remouing by them to vuhom that appertayneth vuould doe more good then a thovusand vuithovut as appeareth by the example of our Sau. Christ which for the better rootiÌ„g owt of error refused the hurtful ceremonyes and tawght the abuse of them together And what wisdome is yt I pray yow that by coÌ„tinuance of the popish ceremonies the church should reciue a wound to

the end that afterward by continual warning yt might receiue a plaster so that the inconuenieÌ„ce which I assigned lyeth in this that the ministers by the coÌ„tinuance of them should be driuen to occupie a great deal more tyme and with les fruyt then when they should be taken away the confuting wherof he is so far from that he rather confirmeth my saying For yf the taking away of these thinges from the eyes doeth not by and by root owt the opinioÌ„ owt of the heart when as doctrine is ioyned withal as I set yt down and as in deed yt owght to be then how much les wil the doctrine be able to pul yt owt of their heartes when they be alwaies before the eies and in vse This I made playn by his example vuhich should set one to vuatch a childe al day long least he should hurt hym self vuith a knife vuhereas by taking avuay the knife quite froÌ„ hym the daÌ„ger is auoided and the seruice of the maÌ„ better imployed his answer whereunto of a childe which hath discretion is no answer when I meant of a little childe which by age is not able to guide a knife Of which sort yt is les meruail yf there be amongest vs seing there appear to haue bene such in the Apostles tymes the rest in that diuision is to no purpose Hether appertaineth also that in page 259 diuis 5. of the surplice that by vsing of these ceremonies the papistes take occasion to blaspheme saying that our religion can not stand by yt self vnles yt lean vpon the staf of their ceremonies whereunto his first answer that they were before Antichrist is before answered His second that they make no great accompt of them is very vntrue euen in the very surplice seing they haue so many misteries in yt as Durandus in his Rationali diuinoruÌ„ reckeneth vp which answer also of his is Hardings shift confuted by the bishop who sheweth by diuers testimonies what great holines they put in these thinges His third that they know we could be wel withowt them is but an asking of that in controuersy and contrary to that them selues doe speak Also that we doe not but for obedience sake much esteme them but how shal they know that when they may see greater seuerity vsed for the omitting of them then for the lords own commaundementes where also yt is to be noted that althowgh the wearing of the surplice and of the cap were free by the lawes of the church yet the D. would not willingly altogither part with them althowgh he would not so greatly esteme them the rest there ofteÌ„ repeated hath partly bene and partly commeth to be answered To that that thus they conceiuing hope of hauing the rest of their popery in the end causeth them to be more frozen in their vuickednes he answereth that they haue no cause so to hope which is no answer For not the cause but the occasion also owght to be taken away where yt may be so chepe that is to say withowt remouing any thing whereof we may not haue ether as good or better in place Althowgh let the reader iudg whether they haue cause giuen to hope that the tayl of popery yet remayning they shal the easelier hale in the whole body after considering also that M. Bucer noteth that where these thinges haue bene left there popery hath returned but of the other part in places which haue bene clensed of these dregges yt hath not yet bene seen that yt hath had any entrance the rest towching thir hopping withowt their hope c. nether letteth theÌ„ in the mean season throwgh this hope to dy in their synnes nor is yf yt come to pas any gramercy vnto this remnant of popish ceremonies which doe their best to kepe the memory of Aegipt with vs. To proue the papistes triumph and ioy in these thinges I alledged further that there are none vuhich make such clamours for these ceremonies as the papistes and those vuhich they suborn He answereth that they doe so iustly c. al which dependeth of the demaund of that in question albeyt what meat I beseche yow is yt like to be which a popish stomak doeth so gredily embrace I deny not but some of ours may speak for them throwgh a good intention they haue to obey the Prince but there be none so lickerous of them as are the papistes nor none cry so lowd for them as they which is that I meant and vttered the second section is a answered partly and partly cometh to be answered after Yt is there further alledged against the incommodity of these ceremonies that there be numbers vuhich haue Antichristianity in that detestation that they can not vuithovut grief of minde behould them The same persons vpon so easy an opening of the wicket vnto this trus of popish ceremonies fear least if the assault should be whot they would set open the gates to the bringing in of greater packes whereunto his answer owt of M. Caluin is from the cause For let hardely his sentence strike vpon them which for euery light corruption in the church wil make a departure from yt yet their frowardnes shal neuer excuse the sluggisnes of them which labour not as they may to remoue those imperfections at which they haue so miserably fallen Your surmise of transforming our selues dayly into a new shape yf we wil please the people ys to let the rest goe but a waÌ„dring from the matter For I added that such godly brethren are not easely to be greued which they seme to be when they are thus martyred in their mindes for ceremonies which to speak the best of them are vnprofitable Beside that your proof of this that the people are alwaies desirous of noueltyes which is that mans nature is desirous of nwes is to wide For yt taketh the prince and other estates boeth in church and common wealth by the head as wel as the people Hether is to be referred that yt is required that the ceremonies should not onely not offend but also tend to edification which being barely denied by the Answerer hath bene declared of me Also that many of these popish ceremonies faut by reason of the pomp in them vuhere they should be agreable to the simplicity of the gospel of Christ crucified which he likewise denieth to be necessary and might aswel deny that the rest of the building should be conformable vnto the foundation But of this also there hath bene spoken before in the matter of the church discipline whereof there is in this respect one reason Hether also belongeth the eight diuision pag. 551. where first he alledgeth that in matters of order the church is iudgment is to be preferred before a priuate mans where yf he vnderstand that we must doe so alwaies and generally he differeth nothing herein from the papistes For why should we for matters of order alwayes hang our iudgment vpoÌ„ the

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