in the Primitive Apostolicall Churches then they will be no additaments or if some of those things alleadged by you be of the nature of circumstances in the point of government and order or according to the rules of the law of nature and the rules of common prudence agreeable also to the generall rules of the word then they are not truly by you called additaments and super-additions for it is one thing to adde to the word of God and his worship and another thing from generall rules of the word and common principles of the light of nature and prudence considering the differences of times places persons dispensations of guifts to explicate and determine of many things in the administration of the visible Church Now of things of this kind something must be which the word of God presupposes or else you can have no setled government in the Church and you may as well stile set Catechismes confessions of Faith reading of Chapters translated by others singing of Psalmes between Chapters and after Sermons preaching constantly upon Texts of Scripture giving thanks after eating meat c. additaments as some of the things instanced in by you And let me hint this to you which I know you understand well enough but forget it often to paralell it with other passages that in your practise of the administration of the Sacraments and in other parts of worship you adde severall things besides what is recorded of Christ or the Apostles practise or given particularly in any precept which I speake not to blame such practises but to minde you such things are not fitly stiled additaments To the third that you have made additaments and superadditions and that in more materiall things then the reformed Churches being your selves guilty of what you accuse them this being the strongest plea and the only plea to speake of in all your book by way of Argument the rest being bare narrations I shall make good against you by particular instances the prooving of which practises of yours from Apostolicall directions must rest upon you who doe them and in so doing have departed from your selves and other reformed Churches amongst many particulars take these following To the Ministeriall preaching and dispensation of the word you subjoyned prophesying by the people 2. To the power of government by the Officers of the Church you have added the power of the people 3. In joyning in particular Congregations you did super-adde the Church-covenant 4. To the Pastour you super-adde the Teacher as a necessary distinct Officer from him and so necessary as in one of your Churches you had two Teachers and have been some yeares without a Pastour at all which is a sad condition for people to be without a Sheapheard 5. To the Deacon you added the Church-widdow as a distinct Officer and as necessary for the perpetuall government of the Church 6. To our Parochiall Assemblies in England which you call in the sixt page the true Churches and body of Christ and abhorre the thought of counting them Antichristian where you say you hold communion as with true Churches you have super-added and erected new-Churches 7. To our Ministery of the Parochiall Assemblies which is true also by your own confession and not Antichristian you have superinstituted and superinducted another Ministery any one of which particulars to be laid downe in the Primitive patterne I professedly deny and it rests upon you who allow what reformed Churches practise but in the particulars instanced and many more doe practise over and above what the reformed Churches doe to make evident and demonstrate upon cleare grounds especially when men set up a new way and leave the practise of all reformed Churches double light being required for separation in any kind whereas single light sufficeth for any man continuing in his standing And certainly of all other things in the matter of practise in the visible Church the medling with the keyes of the kingdome of God both in doctrine and discipline with the withdrawing and forsaking the true Churches of Christ and the Ministerie thereof wherein men have been converted and built up and have converted and built-up so many with the setting up of new Churches against the leave and will of the civill Magistrate without the consent of those Churches departed from and to the scandall and griefe of so many godly Ministers and Christians nay the scandall of all Reformed Churches and all this under pretence of spirituall power and liberty purchased for them by Christ had need have a cleare and full proofe and not be built only upon such weake and slight grounds as flattering similitudes witty allusions remote consequences strained and forced Interpretations from hard and much controverted Scriptures And now by what I have alreadie answered to this Principle in these three particulars let the indifferent Reader and your owne consciences be judge whether you or the Reformed Churches practise most safely and doe that which most Churches acknowledge warrantable and who is most guilty of making additaments when as you and all of your way allow that which they practise in the seven particulars instanced in but you practise many things which all Churches condemne excepting the Churches of the Independent way and if one thing be considered to what I have said that you put the weight and stampe of divine Institution and of necessitie upon your additaments making them parts of worship and essentiall as upon prophecying as upon the office of teachers distinct from Pastours c. but the Reformed Churches in what you call their additaments even in some of them instanced in by you put not so great an authoritie but only an allowance and lawfulnesse of set-formes of prayer prescribed not a necessity but a lawfulnesse of mixtures in Congregations so as not to leave the Church for that and in other practises you count additaments in matters circumstantiall of time place manner and way of doing things which upon good reasons may be changed so that here is a wide difference between that which you call their additaments and yours truly so called and let me adde this that the great pinch of a conscience and the poyson in Ecclesiasticall matters concerning outward Government and order wherein the Scripture hath not laid downe a particular rule for lyes in the stampe of putting a necessitie and a divine Institution upon them and unto such and of such is that Scripture spoken so frequently in the mouthes of men of your way In vaine doe you worship me teaching for doctrine the commandements of men For instance whereas one great controversie of these times is about the qualification of the Members of Churches and the promiscuous receiving and mixture of good and bad therein we chose the better part and to be sure received in none but such as all the Churches in the world would by the ballance of the Sanctuarie acknowledge faithfull And yet in this we are able to make this true and just profession
complaints and appeals now the Presbyterians in that give the Magistrate a power about the use and abuse of Ecclesiasticall discipline and Ecclesiasticall Causes and businesses yea and definitive to namely a politicall objective consequent power which may be diversly exercised both ordinarily and extraordinarily in a Church constituted and in a good estate and in a Church fallen and corrupted Voetius in his disputations upon that question In whose hands the Ecclesiasticall power is a great Presbyterian in that question grants and gives to the Magistrate a publick judiciall power of judging not onely with the judgement of knowledge but definitive in causes and matters Ecclesiasticall which judgement is consequent not antecedent because the ultimate disquisition is not in that whether that be true but whether they will by publicke Authoritie maintaine and execute that So * Apollonius in his Answer to Vedelius where he strongly pleads for the Presbyterians in that point of Ecclesiasticall power yet gives much to the Magistrate ordinarily in a Church constituted and well reformed in the point of this part of power and extraordinarily in the state of a Church corrupted and greatly disordered when the doctrine is corrupted and the Sacraments contaminated with idolatrous rites and discipline turned into tyrannie and when the Ministerie and all Ecclesiasticall meetings both inferiour and superiour conspire to oppresse the truth of God and to establish tyrannie in the Church in such cases the Magistrate may do many things besides the ordinary way now let me entreate you to consult the books of the Presbyterians and especially Apollonius answer to Vedelius of the severall particulars of the power of Magistrates about the use and abuse of discipline in a constituted Church besides the power given them in extraordinarie cases and in your Reply to this Answer satisfie me what you give more But let me tell you whatever power you five may have found out for the Magistrate which the principles of Presbyteriall government will not suffer them to yeeld some new power may be like that devise of Non-communion of Churches and Protestation to all Churches that they may doe the like yet your Churches may not grant it and so the Magistrates shall be never the nearer the power you give the Magistrate in the 17. and 19. pag. is not yeelded by many of your own Churches whereof you are Ministers A Gentleman a prime member of one of your Churches immediately after the comming forth of your Apologeticall Narration disclaimed and renounced that power of the Magistrate exprest by you in the hearing of a Minister a member of the Assembly who related it to me But what is it wherein you give more to the Magistrates sure there is something you meane and aime at in it if we could find it out suffer me to guesse at it and you shall see though you doe not formally expresse so much yet I have some reason to judge so First Doe you not meane in this phrase the Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld that your Church-way consisting all of particular Congregations and not growing into great bodies by combinations and Synods the Magistrates power is greater over you in that he may easily deale with you and dissolve you at pleasure but for a power to grow into so great a body an Ecclesiasticall power as large as the civill so combined this may be formidable and dangerous to the State and too great for the Magistrate hereafter to rectifie this hath been by an active Independent upon discourse of these points suggested to me and how farre one of you hath reasoned thus in the hearing of many against Presbyteriall government and for Congregationall you can remember Or secondly Doe you understand by this phrase that when heresies schismes or strange opinions are broacht in your Churches and you cannot tell what to doe with them nor how to suppresse them nor how to have the persons censured being so powerfull in particular Congregations whereof they are members in such a case you give the civill Magistrate a power to question them for these heresies schismes and to imprison banish c. if they doe not revoke them New-England practising the way of Independencie and not having Classes Synods that have authoritative power to call to account and censure such persons were necessitated to make use of the Magistrates and to give the more to them a power of questioning for doctrines and judging of errors and punishing with imprisonment banishment and they found out a prety fine destinction to deceive themselves with and to salve the contrariety of this practise to some other principles that the Magistrate questioned and punished for these opinions and errors which now for want of Ecclesiasticall discipline and censure they knew not what to doe with not as heresies and such opinions but as breaches of the civill peace and disturbances to the Common-wealth which distinction if the Parliament would have learned from you and proceeded upon they might long agoe have put downe all your Churches and Congregations and justly have dealt with you as the Magistrates in New-England did with Mr Williams and the Antinomians Familists and Anabaptists there and yet have said they punished you not for your consciences nor because of such opinions but because your opinions ways and practises were an occasion of much hurt to the Common-wealth a breach of civill peace a great cause of many people sitting so loose from the Parliament a great hinderance to the Reformation and a ground of much distraction to the publike and of strengthening the enemy whereas the Presbyterians give the power in cases of heresies errors c. that are not remedied in the particular Congregation to Classes Synods Assemblies to question convince judge of censure and to apply spirituall remedies proper to spirituall diseases which I am confident of had such been in New-England in the Presbyteriall way there had never beene so many imprisoned banished for errors nor the Magistrates put upon that distinction Or thirdly Is it that you doe give a power to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things of the ultimate determination of matters purely Ecclesiasticall which the Presbyterians principles doe not as now in matters of doctrine and in matters of scandall and in matters of censures excommunication deposition c. which are brought before and have past in Ecclesiasticall Assemblies to appeale from them to the civill Magistrate and to carry causes from thence to civill Courts to repeale and revoke them Your words and passages about the Magistrates power imply this and I find that many quick sighted men as the Walachrian classis nay a whole Synod after them in their late Letters to the Assembly apprehend you so and therefore I may upon good grounds judge besides the two former that you aime at this third in saying you give more to the Magistrates power then the Presbyterians
I owne the Scripture for the rule rightly understanding it and in matters of Discipline and Church-order professe to walke by it desiring to be tied to the Scripture patterns particularly to the patterns of examples and precepts recorded in the new Testament provided this be understood in essentials and fundamentals of order in matters of perpetuall use and of a common reason to all times and places only I adde that in some things where in matter of order and externall government there may be no such cleare directions either by precept or example there generall rules of the word with deductions out of Scripture examples and from precepts by way of Analogie with rules of common prudence be taken in too Now the interpretation of this rule as I have laid it downe being rejected and the rule simply taken up without such limitations will produce a wilde and strange discipline and Church-order to practise all things recorded in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles without distinction and difference of those times persons places and ours and on the other hand to practise nothing but what hath a cleare example or precept is strange too and in so doing reasonable men cannot become a Church society nor exercise Church communion And however in matters of externall government and administration of holy things in the visible Church some pretend to this to practise whatever they find recorded in the Scriptures and to practise nothing whatsoever they find not there yet none of the Independents no not the highest forme of them the Anabaptists nor the highest sort of Anabaptists who were called Apostolici from their pretending to imitate the Apostles in all things ever yet have or doe practise all patternes and examples recorded in the new Testament or are contented with them alone but practise somewhat over and above not particularly recorded in Scripture I could lay downe a catalogue of many particulars specified in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles not practised in your Churches nor in any Churches of the independent way as also of many things practised by you which we never read of in the Scriptures so that all the Independents are in many things according to the first patterne both defective and excessive But I referre the full handling of this to a Tractate I intend concerning the Scriptures How farre the Scriptures are a rule for all matters of Church government and order in the visible Church I adde only one thing for the Readers sake that they be carefull to understand this first principle of yours not so nakedly as you lay it downe in page 8 9 10 11. because it hath been is and may be a rock to split many on and an Ignis fatuus to lead many into waters instead of a sacred pillar of fire to guide to Heaven in a safe way This foolish imitation of the Apostles in all things in matters of externall order hath been and is the great foundation of evils on all hands both in many practises and points of Popery and amongst the Anabaptists as I could demonstrate in particulars Learned Danaeus in his Commentaries upon 1. Tim. cap. 5. speakes of it Schlusselburgius writes also that there is a sort of Anabaptists cal'd Apostolici so named because they professed to imitate the Apostles in all things they washed one anothers feet they held all things ought to be common they travailed up and downe without staffe shooes cloake money because of Christs words they went up to the tops of houses to preach because Christ had said what you have heard in the eare preach upon the house top Now how farre the want of these limitations and distinctions in this your first rule hath led some of you into errors and strange practises and may leade you further as into annoynting the sick with oyle baptising in rivers c. I leave you to consider of But yet this first and great principle upon which you went and reared up your new Church way how difficult and abstruse a rule and how doubtfull a ground-worke doe you make it before you passe from it by making that supposition upon it If the directions and examples therein delivered were fully knowne and followed And that you cannot professe that sufficiency of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules c. Now then brethren consider with your selves according to your owne grant how for all this principle of the Primitive patterne to guide you by yet it being so hard to know and find out the way and you not having that sufficiencie of knowledge to lay forth the rules how easily might you be out of the way then for all this principle and how can we indeed thinke otherwise of you being a few men and going by your selves So that supposing the Apostolicall directions and Primitive examples of the Churches not excluding the Old Testament and Gospels to be the only rule of the outward administration and government of the visible Church and granting these were more especially in your eye to guide and steere your practise by considering by your own confession there is so much difficulty to make these out and to lay downe what is a binding and standing direction and what not what is meerly circumstantiall and what not and how to apply many things which fall out to such rules and such examples recorded Yet wee may see how unsafe and dangerous it was for you and for a few persons to set up Churches and Church-government and we may hence learne what great use and need there is of Synods and Assemblies to draw out Church-government and discipline and still in all difficult cases to meet for the debating and determining of things And by the way let me admonish many of your followers of their boldnesse and rashnesle of determining in matters of Church-government and order holding all things about discipline and Church-government to be so manifestly and clearely laid downe in the Scriptures as the light of the Sunne and thereupon censuring many for not holding with them imputing it to their want of self-deniall and spirituall knowledge By this they may see their great Leaders judge otherwise who speaking upon the Scriptures being a compleate rule to make the Churches perfect put in a caution and declare They cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules therein which may meet with all cases and emergencies that may or sometimes did fall out amongst them Now if the Apologists men so able cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge c. who yet according to their owne Narration tell us how they saw the darke part before many others and how they had all that light of the Non-conformists Reformed-churches New-England c. What shall we thinke of a few private illiterate Christians setting up of Churches and framing a government will this assure them though the Scriptures be a perfect rule for Church-government and this is the supreme rule
those Congregations in all weighty matters and greater cases that fall out those precepts of obey your Elders and them that are over you reach to all the Elders as well as to those that particularly and ordinarily preach to them and however it is true such places are especially understood of them yet not of them only and alone as excluding others as your argument carried it but including others who are over them too And to answer you by your own instance given of servants obey your own governours as by vertue of that text particular servants are to obey their own Masters so by the same text each particular servant and all of them together of such a Company and Hall in the things and rules of their calling for the publike good of that Societie they are to obey and be subject to the whole Company namely the particular masters of other servants as to their own masters yea and to submit to the common Orders and good Rules of such a Hall and Corporation though their particular Masters doe not vote for but against them 3. Those Rulers who are of the Presbytery are not forraigne nor extrinsicall to the Congregations but intrinsicall and naturall as well as their particular Elders so that another without themselves doth not beare rule over them but all of them together by common consent doe rule every one which is a most mild and free forme of Church government for the proofe of which I shall not enlarge but referre you for satisfaction to what is said to this point both by the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland and by some Churches from beyond the seas in their Letters upon occasion of your Apologie 4. It is a fallacious way of reasoning from the oeconomicall relations and government of husbands over wives and fathers over children and masters over servants and their subjection and obedience to husbands c. unto the Ecclesiasticall and Politicall because it is not to speake ad idem for in each of these the way of government is different for instance in those oeconomicall relations a woman can have but one husband one man can be but her husband and one man a father and the wife and child cannot Pelinquish them diââ¦avow them though very bad nor deny those duties they owe them in those relations though censured by the Church but they are to obey them which yet holds not in the members of a particular Congregation to Elders and Ministers that are unworthy and excommunicated that the members must be subject to them The Royalists that argue so from that subjection and obedience which children owe their fathers to subjects subjection and obedience to Princes and the Hierarchicall men that argue from what children owe to natural parents though wicked and ungodly to what the people owe to wicked ministers are answered at large and you know what Mr Robinson and many of your way say to that Now the same will serve to answer your comparisons that the places hold not alike between the people and the Elders and the wives and their husbands Mr Baynes answers in the last page of his Diocesans Tryall that which is objected touching Pastors and Fathers That the similitude holds not in all things parents and sheapheards are absolutely parents and sheapheards be they good or evill but spirituall parents are no longer so then they doe accordingly behave themselves 5. The very instances you give of wives obey your own husbands and servants your own governours doth not therefore only tye them to civill subjection and obedience to husbands and Masters exempting them from subjection to any others but they are subject to the Magistrates in the Common-wealth and to common-Lawes notwithstanding so neither doth the Scriptures obey your Elders c. supposing the full latitude of those Scriptures were of the Elders of particular Congregations forbid or exempt men from that Ecclesiasticall subjection and obedience which concernes them as they stand in relation to the community To the third Reason hinted for your selves and against the reformed Churches that the Elders of other Congregations should have power and rule over Churches which they doe not teach and feed ordinarily by vertue of those forementioned precepts was to you a question c. I answer Suppose three or foure Congregations in one great Towne should have Ministers in common to teach and feed them ordinarily as in Holland would you in such a case yeeld to a Presbyteriall combination if you say you would then the case is determined for us and thus I judge it was in the Acts of the Apostles in Primitive Churches but if you answer you would not yeeld to such a classicall government then I reply 't is not for want of such Ministers teaching you and feeding ordinarily that you will not obey but upon some other ground and then this argument is lost Secondly I answer your ruling Elders doe not feed nor teach you ordinarily but only governe you and yet by vertue of those forementioned precepts you obey them and are subject to them so that this is no good argument against the lawfulnesse of having power and authority over those whom men teach not ordinarily for then what becomes of the Ruling Elders in the Church who are neither Pastors nor Teachers To the fourth Reason drawn from Corporations who have the power and priviledge of life and death within themselves which kind of power you would have I answer you cannot frame a good argunment from Corporations and civill power to bodies Ecclesiasticall and spirituall power and I might give you the many differences alledged by your selves between civill power and Ecclesiasticall and the different manner of dispensation but I must not enlarge here only referre you for this to Mr Robinson Mr Burroughs and Dr Ames 2. Corporations goe according to the Lawes of the Land and to their Charters agreed upon and made in Parliaments they make not themselves a Corporation nor goe not according to private rules and orders to passe sentence of death c. but are ruled though they have Officers as Major and Aldermen by the Laws of the Land and so going they may more safely have a power within themselves but your particular Congregations set up your selves without leave of Magistrates or Ministers not proceeding upon common rules of government in sentences of Excommunication c. agreed by Synods but only upon your own wills and private rules which you have fancied are laid down in Scripture 3. Corporations though they judge their members and passe sentence of life and death within themselves yet sometimes nay often in greater cases and offences their inhabitants are tried and sentences passed upon them in other Courts of Justice and that when they would proceed against them yet the matter is carried higher to be tried If you would grant this in the Corporations to your Congregations that Assemblies and Synods might judge and passe sentence upon your members as oft
be most willing to have recourse unto for our parts we saw not then nor doe yet see And likewise we did then suppose and doe yet that this principle of submission of Churches that miscarry unto other Churches offended together with this other that it is a command from Christ enjoyned to Churches that are finally offended to pronounce such a sentence of non-communion and withdrawing from them whilest impenitent ac unworthy to hold forth the Name of Christ these principles being received and generally acknowledged by the Churches of Christ to be a mutuall duty as strictly enjoyned them by Christ as any other that these would be as effectuall meanes through the blessing of Christ to awe and preserve Churches and their Elders in their duties as that other of claime to an authoritative power Ecclesiasticall to excommunicate other Churches or their Elders offending For if the one be compared with the other in a meere Ecclesiasticall notion that of Excommunication pretended hath but this more in it That it is a delivering of whole Churches and their Elders offending unto Satan for which we know no warrant in the Scriptures that Churches should have such a power over other Churches And then as for the binding obligation both of the one way and the other it can be supposed to lye but in these two things First In a warrant and injunction given by Christ to his Churches to put either the one or the other into execution And secondly That mens consciences be accordingly taken therewith so as to subject themselves whether unto the one way or the other For suppose that other principle of an authoritative power in the greater part of Churches combined to excommunicate other Churches c. to be the ordinance of God yet unlesse it doe take hold of mens consciences and be received amongst all Churches the offending Churches will steight all such excommunications as much as they may be supposed to doe our way of protestation and sentence of non-communion On the other side let this way of ours be but as strongly entertained as that which is the way and command of Christ and upon all occasions be heedfully put in execution it will awe mens consciences as much and produce the same effects And if the Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld doe but assist and back the sentence of other Churches denouncing this non-communion against Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime as they judge meet and as they would the sentence of Churches excommunicating others Churches in such cases vpon their owne particular iudgement of the cause then without all controversie this our way of Church proceeding will bee every way as effectuall as their other can be supposed to be and we are sure more brotherly and morâ⦠suited to that liberty and equality Christ hath endowed his Churches with But without the Magistrates interposing their authority their way of proceeding will be as ineffectuall as ours and more liable to contempt by how much it is pretended to be more authoritative and to inflict a more dreadfull punishment which carnall spirits are seldome sensible of This for our judgements And for a reall evidence and demonstration both that this was then our judgements as likewise for an instance of the effectuall successe of such a course held by Churches in such cases our own practise and the blessing of God thereon may plead and testifie for us to all the world The manage of this transaction in briefe was this That Church which with others was most scandalized did by Letters declare their offence requiring of the Church supposed to be offending in the Name and for the vindication of the honour of Christ and the relieving the party wronged to yeeld a full and publike hearing before all the Churches of our Nation or any other whomsoever offended of what they could give in charge against their proceedings in that deposition of their Minister and to subject themselves to an open triall and review of all those forepassed carriages that concerned that particular which they most chearfully and readily according to the forementioned principles submitted unto in a place and State where no outward violence or any other externall authority either civill or Ecclesiasticall would have enforced them thereunto And accordingly the Ministers of the Church offended with other two Gentlemen of much worth wisedome and piety members thereof were sent as messengers from that Church and at the introduction and intrance into that solemne assembly the solemnity of which hath left as deepe an impression upon our hearts of Christs dreadfull presence as ever any we have been present at it was openly and publikely prosessed in a speech that was the preface to that discussion to this effect that it was the most to be abhorred maxime that any religion hath ever made profession of and therefore of all other the most contradictory and dishonourable unto that of Christianity that a single and particular society of men professing the Name of Christ and pretending to be endowed with a power from Christ to judge them that are of the same body and society within themselves should further arrogate unto themselves an exemption from giving account or being censurable by any other either Christian Magistrates above them or neighbour Churches about them So farre were our judgements from that independent liberty that is imputed to us then when we had least dependency on this Kingdom or so much as hopes ever to abide therein in peace And for the issue and successe of this agitation after there had been for many dayes as judiciary and full a charge tryall and deposition of witnesses openly afore all commers of all sorts as can be expected in any Court where authority enjoynes it that Church which had offended did as publikely acknowledge their sinfull aberration in it restored their Minister to his place againe and ordered a solemne day of fasting to humble themselves afore God and men for their sinfull carriage in it and the party also which had been deposed did acknowledge to that Church wherein he had likewise sinned In this part of your Apologie are contained the fourth and fifth of those five forementioned heads unto which I referred all I should answer to what you say upon your third and last instance about the government and discipline in the Churches The scope of which fourth head is to answer and take off a common objection brought against your way the strength of which answer is made up of those parts and stands in these particulars First In laying downe your own principles which you hold in such a case Secondly Your practise according to those principles occasioned upon an offence committed in one of your Churches which story you briefly relate Thirdly The successe and effectualnesse of your practise according to your principles illustrated by an instance Now for that common
word to hinder the deposing of Mr Ward and so to have prevented so great a scandall and offence as this was To the fifth and last generall head the comparison you make between the effectualnesse and powerfulnesse of your way of submission and non-communion and that of the Presbyterians to awe and preserve Churches and Elders in their duties and to reduce Churches miscarrying where you make the sââ¦ales fall on your side rather I answer Besides some considerable things already hinted under some of the former heads especially under the fourth head which doe shew a wide difference of the effectualnesse and successe which the Presbyterian principles and way hold out over your Congregationall thââ¦e are many other to ãâã the sââ¦les which I shall now speake of according as 't is laid downe here by you in the 17 18 and 19 pages 1. That you may render your way the more specious and probable you beg the question and take for granted things denied supposing that also which never hath fallen out in the reformed Churches and you speake but to a part of the way and remedie namely excommunication anâ⦠from all these false premises you make your conclusion You lay downe your way of submission and non-communion ãâã that ââ¦ch is the ãâã and way of Christ and to be strictly enjoyned by Christ ââ¦d that it is a command from Christ enjoyned to Churches that are ââ¦ly offended to denounce such a sentence of non-communion which is a meere device of your own brains and sound out to give a colourable answer to that common and ãâã reason against the Church-way ãâã you make that ãâã ãâã in Presbyteries to be an excommunicating of whole Churches and ââ¦s delivering of whole Churches and their Eldere offending unto Saââ¦n which is a scandalous charge laid to tho Presbyterian government and never yet was ââ¦rd of in any of the reformed Churches for the space now of a hundred yeares past You lay you give more to the Magistrates power then the principle of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld whereas in some things I shall show the contrary and in other things you may out of policie at this time give more then the Scriptures allow You speake only of excommunication a part of their way whereas in combined classicall government there are many other meanes and ways from first to last to preserve and reduce from errors and offences 2. The comparison made by you between the Presbyterians and Independents stands in two things First In the Ecclesiasticall proceedings and power Secondly In the civill Magistrates power 1. For the Ecclesiasticall you make that principle of submission of Churches that miscarry and that of non-communion as effectuall as excommunication which supposing they were as I shall shew they are not yet 't is a fallacious reasoning by comparing the whole with a part for a whole of one kind may be better and more excellent then some part of another kind and yet not comparable to the whole now there are many things in Presbyteriall government besides excommunication excellent to preserve and keep the Churches Their reformation and constitution being setled by Synods and Assemblies their Ministers being ordained by Presbyteries and classes their Doctrine worship government and discipline upon serious debate and by common content drawn up then rules being fixt known and certaine their classicall meetings frequent and constant with higher Assemblies for appeales their number and abilities great their remedies and censures more solemne and more in number as deposition suspension c. all which are wanting in the Church way as I could shew at large but that this answer would be too great a volume But to come to particulars the Presbyterian is more effectuall then your Independent way 1. Because it doth prevent and preserve from those many errours divisions evils which fall in your way as is evident by experience and is founded upon good reason will fall out now how much better and more effectuall a way 't is to play the fore-game then the after-game all men know 't is better to prevent the plague and taking in poyson then to expell it government is for prevention as well as recovering if your way were as effectuall to compose differences and reduce Churches yet not so to prevent which is one of the great ends of Church government 2. Your way wraps in whole Churches in sin and guilt and you have no remedy but it must come to non-communion of whole Churches but in Presbyteriall 't is not so no example being extant among them of excommunicating whole Churches so that if an errour take one or two they are presently dealt with and the errour spreads not to a whole Church 3. In the Presbyteriall way the persons offending and sinning in Congregations are proceeded with and punished every man beares his own sin but the innocent persons suffer not but here in the way of non-communion some who are good in the Church suffer also many wayes and here is no difference made by you but all involved in the same condition 4. In your way as if all sins were equall and all offenders alike all are punished with the same sentence of non-communion but 't is not so in the Presbyteriall way 5. Your submissions and meetings are accidentall uncertaine free and at choice they may be and may not be there are many wayes to evade and put them off whereas the combinations and consociations of Churches are fixed set certaine Amongst your Churches in Holland in three or foure yeares there was but one act of submission and one meeting which is here related In that difference between those two Churches at Rotterdam there was no submission but each Church blew the trumpet of defiance against each other and so about the differences at Arnheim which the Church could not end in so long a time no Church interposed but in the classicall government there is such a subordination and dependencie such stated and fixed meetings that if men should escape one they do not all now in government and order there is a materiall difference between what men may doe or not doe and what they have tied themselves unto and must stand to In matters of civill difference referred to Arbitratours 't is one thing to submit to hearing and to counsell upon it and another thing to be bound to stand to the determination There are many will doe justly and performe such trusts whilest bound who left at liberty will doe just nothing now in your submission of Churches though you submit to a hearing yet you doe not submit to their determinations unlesse it like you you doe not submit to doe what they enjoyne but you will order your selves according to their counsell as you see occasion now men being partiall in their own cause and still their own judges what a remedie is this 't is one thing when men know they are at liberty and may doe or not doe as they see good and another
thing when they must we find it so in all converse with men and good men are men there 's a great deale of difference between authority and obedience and only perswasion on the one part and free will on the other no man will deny but in civill matters there is a great difference in such cases were it in the power of particular members in your Churches to submit or not submit as they please there would be much adoe to remedy any thing as will be betwixt Churches differing But particularly for excommunication and non-communion excommunication may upon these grounds awe mens consciences more and be more effectuall then non-communion 1. Because there is something positive in it it is a delivering of the offenders up unto Satan but your non-communion is a privative depriving only of communion now there 's more efficacie in a positive then in a privative and negative Secondly Excommunication doth deprive the persons offending or the Churches of all communion among themselves as well as the communion of other Churches whereas the sentence of non-communion doth but take other Churches off from communion with them but meddles not to debar them of communion among themselves in their own particular Churches but still they enjoy the word prayers Sacraments c. which is a great difference Thirdly Your selves make excommunication the greater censure as appeares by your own phrases calling it an authoritative power c. and not practising that against other Churches whereas you doe exercise the sentence of non-communion and we know 't is the highest censure in the Church now certainely the greatest censures and more dreadfull punishments according to Christs institution and intention are more effectuall and powerfull to awe and to remedie things amisse then the lesser and lower censures And so much for the comparison in the Ecclesiasticall proceedings Secondly In the civill Magistrates power you granting that ought to back and assist the sentence of non-communion against Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime and you giving more as you think to the Magistrates power in matters Ecclesiasticall then the principles of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeââ¦ld your way of Church proceeding will be every way as effectuall as the Presbyterians I answer supposing all that you say of giving so much power to the Magistrate c were true yet that makes not your submission and non-communion so effectuall a meanes as excommunication for the question is about Ecclesiasticall authority and spirituall power and about spirituall meanes and remedies for the conscience and soule and not about civill power and civill externall meanes and I would aske you this question upon this passage of the civill Magistrate either you give him an Ecclesiasticall spirituall power of applying spirituall remedies and meanes to Churches miscarrying or you doe not if you give him not this first as I judge your principles will not allow you he being no Church-officer of Christs ââ¦hurch but only Christ gave Pastors teachers c. as necessary and sufficient for the government of his Church then all you say of the Magistrate helps you not 't is nothing to the question in hand but before I speake any more to that point that the Magistrates power backing your sentence of non-communion is not comparable to the Presbyterian way I must animadvert upon the passage it selfe both in the comparative of your saying you thinke you give more to the Magistrate then the Presbyterians and upon the positive what you give them 1. For the comparison 't is an odious and dangerous insinuation to prepare King and Parliament to reject the Presbyterie as not giving so much to Magistrates in matters of Religion and Church government as is their due and 't is scandalous against Scotland and all the reformed Churches but what 's the maine ââ¦nd of it or what may be conceived the reason of your saying you give so much to the Magistrates power and more then the Presbyterians seeing men of your Church principles were never guilty yet of giving too much Ecclesiasticall power to Magistrates you are the first Independents and this is the first time that ever publikely you have exprest your selves thus I judge you being Politicians Politici Theologi to flatter the Parliament at this time the better to work your ends for a toleration and to promote your Church-way you write thus 'T is observed by Learned men that amongst the principall attempts and policies of the Remonstrants whereby they laboured to bring the Churches of the Netherlands into commotion and to obtaine their own ends this was a great one the crying up the power of the civil Magistrate both by writing of Bookes of their great power in Ecclesiasticals and in their Sermons every where and their aspersing the orthodox Ministers and their lawfull meetings and Ecclesiasticall actions with the contrary and amongst many other particulars of the great power they gave the Magistrates in Ecclesiasticals this was one that they did ascribe to the Magistrate the ultimate and highest jurisdiction and power of giving judgement in Ecclesiasticall matters reasoning that unto the Magistrate alone immediately under Christ did belong the judgement when controversies of faith did arise in the Church And therefore after the Arminians despaired of prevailing by the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies they brought and removed their cause from the Ecclesiasticall cognizance to another Court by their policie and artifices making use of the Authoritie of one or two chiefe men in place to worke for them And that this new-way might have some colour and that so much the more easily the favour of many Politicians or at least a toleration might be procured for these Arminian novelties there was a booke set forth by Uttenbogardus de Iure Supremi Magistratus in Ecclesiasticis Many other of the Arminians also sung the same song as Episcopius printed a Disputation de Iure Magistratus circa sacra Barlaeus Grotius c. And besides all these there was a great number of books put forth in the vulgar and mother tongue of the power and authority of the Magistrates And thus whilst the Magistrates let the Arminians alonâ⦠and did nothing against them even till the Synod of Dort in the yeare 1618. they slattered them thus But after the Synod of Dort had determined against their opinions and that the Magistrates were agaiââ¦t them then they lifted up the heele and then they write books in a farre other stile and in their Apologie that power which before they had so liberally measured out for them they did not a little limit and contract and offended as much in the defect giving Magistrates too little as before they had in the excesse giving them too much For the full proofe of this I referre the Reader to learned Voetius select disputations concerning that question penes quos sit potestas ecclesiastica where he doth at large relate this and their opinions about the Magistrates power after the Synod
of Dort and unto Vedelius de Episcopatu Constantini magni who as all men know gives in that booke power enough to Magistrates in Ecclesiasticals yet he layes down at large that as the Anabaptists and Socinians following the Donatists give too little to the Magistrate so the Arminians did offend in the excesse For before the Synod of Dort they contended that under the Orthodox Magistrate the Church had of it selfe no spirituall power The Ministers of the Church did performe their office in the name of the Magistrate so that the Magistrate because he for other businesses could not preach c. he did preach by the Ministers they gave the government of the Church to the Magistrates alone they gave the calling of Ministers and their deposing to the Magistrate alone with many other such but afââ¦er the Synod they denie 't is their right and office to oblige men by their authoritie to the decrees of Synods however agreeable to the word or to use any coactive power in that case c. in which they take away as much from the Magistrate as in other things they seemed to give And it may be feared however these Apologists now to ingratiate themselves and being left alone in their Church-way say they give more to the Magistrates then the Presbyteriall and that they professe to submit and to be most willing to have recourse to the Magistrates judgement and cognizance and examination of Ecclesiasticall causes yet when they shall come once to be crossed and the Parliament by the advise of the Assembly to settle the government of the Church and by their authoritie to bind them to the things agreeable to the word we shall see then what they will say of the Magistrates power there are too many speeches alreadie since the meeting of the Assembly out of their feare how things may goe which have fallen from many Independents that prognosticate they will doe by the Parliament as the Remonstrants did after the Synod of Dort by the States 2. But whatever you say here that you think you give more to the Magistrates then the principles of the Presbyterian Government will suffer them to yeeld I doe much doubt it and doe judge that in many things you give no more in Ecclesiasticals then the Presbyterians and in others you give lesse and they give more M. Robinson in his Apologie saith of himselfe and his Church that in the point of the civill Magistrate and his office they hold altogether the same thing which the Belgicke Churches doe and that to their Confession in this point they do ex animo agree Now the Belgick Churches are Presbyterians and your Church-way M. Robinsons differ not much ââ¦o that till you know what you give more to the civill Magistrate then M. Robinson and his Church doe I cannot beleeve you especially considering that M. Burroughes one of you in his Lectures upon Hosea speaking of the power of Magistrates in Church affaires gives no more to them then the rigidest Presbyterians namely That the King is supreame governour to governe in a civill way by civill Lawes so as to sâ⦠Christ not dishonoured so as to keepe out Idolatry to protect the Church to punish enormitios that are there to defind it from enemies In that sense he is said to be the head but that title of supreame Governour being understood in a civill way is more proper Now it were easie out of Beza Calvin Zanchius and many Presbyterians to show more power given to Kings by them in matters of Religion then by M. Burroughes there so that I have more reason to judge of your principles by what M. Burroughes writes particularly and by way of answering doubts of conscience then from a Narrration in generall and from we thinke more then the principles of Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld In other things you give not so much to the Magistrates as the Presbyterians First whereas the a Presbyterians doe acknowledge the Protestant Prince and Magistrate an eminent member of the Church and in their greatest Assemblies and Councels give him an eminent place and power you according to your principles doe not owne him for a member of the Church neither shall his children be admitted to Baptisme nor he to the ordinances though a Protestant and Orthodoxe unlesse you account him a visible Saint c. neither doe you give him so much power or vote no not in a particular Church in any Church matters of censures admissions election of officers c. as you doe give to one of your serving men and the supreme Magistrate and his children though brought up and professing the true Religion may be and will be kept from the Sacraments all their dayes 2. The Presbyterians give to the Magistrate a coercive and coactive power to suppresse heresies schisme to correct troublers and unruly persons in the Church to tie and bind men by their authoritie to the decrees of Synods made according to the word of God which power as b Voetius showes only the Remonstrants with the Libertines did not admit but all the Presbyterians doe reject such opinions that the Magistrate could not by his authoritie bind and compell men to observe the decrees of Synods conformable to the word of God now doe you allow the Magistrates such a power By your pleading for tolerations of Religion and for liberty of conscience and that conscience is not to be tied and by your speaking against impositions of things lawfull and agreeable to the word as set formes of prayer decreed by Synods and such like 't is very suspitious you allow not such a power to Magistrates and your good friend M. S. in his answer to the observations and considerations upon your Apologeticall Narration pleading your cause denies and pleads against this coercive power of the Magistrate 3. The Presbyterians give a great deale of power to the supreme Christian Magistrate in the Reformation of Religion and in repairing and building the house of God as might be showne out of Calvin Zanchius Peter Martyr c. but whether the Independents give as much when they allow private men to gather and make Churches and Ministers to do such publike workes and that without leave nay against the mind and laws of the supreame Magistrate I question There is a Tractate in my hands about a Church that goes under the name of one of you wherein civill Magistrates are cut off and Ministers too from having any power to make Churches and the immediate Independent power from Christ is given to the Saints onely to gather and combine themselves in such an Assembly without expecting warrant from any Governours what soever upon earth Saints as Saints have a right and full power to cast themselves into the fellowship without asking the consent of Governours and civill Magistrates who have no power in the marriage of their people nor should have it being an act of naturall civill
right and as Magistrates have no power over Family-government to appoint whom I shall admit into my Family c. much lesse have they power over Christs Family this union of a Church is a spirituall right which is transcendently out of the sphere of the Magistrates authoritie and the Apostles taught the Saints to doe it without asking leave of the Magistrates yea not to for sake it though the Magistrates forbad it Heb. 10. 25. Now I beleeve you cannot show me any principle in Presbyteriall Government nor quote me the judgement of any Presbyterian that cuts short the power of the Orthodox Protestant Magistrate about Congregations and Assemblies as this doth 4. The Presbyterians doe grant the Magistrate a power about the publick exercise of the Ministerie that 't is so farre subject to the direction of the Magistrate that without his approbative authoritie or confirming authoritie or his toleration of it it ought not by the Church to be publikely begun in his territories nor practised Apollonius of Zeland who writ an answer to Vedellius by the command of the Waââ¦achrian Classis was a great Presbyterian and in that answer must needs show it upon occasion of Vedelius giving so much to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things yet he grants the Magistrate this power about the exercise of the Ministerie Now whether your principles allow this to the Magistrate let your practises speake about your making Ministers and exercising of it as you doe 5. The Presbyterians grant to the Magistrates a power in private meetings as well as in publicke Churches over exercises there as well as those in the publick places So Voetius We reject that noveltie of the Remonstrants that the Magistrate hath no power in private meetings but onely in publike Temples Now whether you allow the Magistrates a power concerning your private meetings or onely over the publike meetings or whether you doe not with the Arminians make the ground of this power in the Magistrate the granting of a publike meeting-place I desire to be satisfied from you But by all this the Reader may see in these particulars you doe not give more power to the Magistrate for the Presbyterians give what you give and not onely so but they give that which you denie and so give more then you But Brethren wherein and in what doe you give more to the Magistrates power then the Presbyterians Had you exprest wherein the Presbyterians give too little to the Magistrates power and in what their principles are defective and wherein you give more you had dealt fairely and ingeniously and a man might have knowne where to have had you and how to have answered you but to accuse thus in the generall and not to signifie the crime is not just but as you do throughout your Apologie under the figge-leaves of darke doubtfull generall speeches cover your opinions least your nakednesse should appeare so in this place but not to let you goe away thus but that I may drive you out of your holes and thickets and divest you of your coverings and that I may a little take off the Odium and suspition that Presbyteriall Government may lie under amongst many who know not their principles by reason of this passage of yours The Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld I will propound some questions to you to draw out what you hold about the power of the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things and to give some further light for the present of the Presbyterian principles concerning the power of Magistrates referving the particular laying downe what the Presbyterians give to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things and what not till my Rejoynder shall come out to your Replie 1. Whether the power of the Magistrate about Ecclesiasticall things be a power extrinsecall objective coercive indirect mediate accidentall and consequent or spirituall intrinsecall formall proper and antecedent Now concerning the first the Presbyterians give as much to the Magistrate as you nay more as hath been partly shewed alreadie but for the other the spirituall intrinsecall formall c. If you ascribe that to the Magistrate as I thinke you doe not nor your principles do not yeeld it unlesse according to your second great principle laid downe in the 10. and 11. page you are since the Assembly to please the Parliament the more as you may imagine come off from your former judgement and practise I doe referre you for satisfaction to the three most learned select Disputations of Voetius and unto Waââ¦us excellent answer to the tractate of Uttengobardus so strong that the Authour could never reply againe though in a booke published he promised to doe it and unto Apollonius learned answer to Vedelius Dissertation 2. I aske of you whether the civill power doth containe the Ecclesiasticall formally and eminently so as that power can give and produce the other or whether there is an intrinsecall dependance of the Ecclesiasticall upon the Politicall in their nature forme and exercise of them or whether there doth not reside in the Church all Ecclesiasticall power absolutely necessarie to the building up of the Kingdome of Christ and salvation of men even when the Magistrate is not of the Church 3. I aske of you whether in writing this passage of your Apologie you considered and remembred all those differences and distinctions given by so many excellent Divines as Iunius Zanchius Amesius c. concerning those two powers Civill and Ecclesiasticall and their Administration and in particular amongst the rest that difference taken from their matter and the subject wherein they make the subject of politicall administration to be humane things and matters but of Ecclesiasticall to be divine and sacred and if so whether doe not Presbyterians according to those differences and distinctions which distinctions are acknowledged also by your selves as by M. Robinson and by some of you in your printed bookes as I remember give the Magistrate that power in Ecclesiasticals which is given him in the word of God 4. Considering all Ecclesiasticall power and right is commonly by Divines reduced to a three-fold head namely potestas ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã which of these powers doe you give more to the Magistrates then the Presbyterians or in all of them doe you give more or doe you not For the present that power you seem to give the Magistrate and intimate it that you give more then the Presââ¦eriall principles allow as may be gathered from the following words in p. 19. from those words in p. 17. The Magistrates interposing a power of an other nature unto which we upon his particular coguizance and examination of such causes profes ever to submit and also to be most willing to have recourse unto must fall under the last head of the power of judging and determining in matters Ecclesiastical and that upon
Concerning which question it being a point that I have not much studied I shall not declare my judgement in it But in the Church of Israel it seemes that in the things of Jehovah the last judgement did belong to the chiefe Ecclesiasticall Assembly which sate at Ierusalem Deut. 17. 8 9 10 11 12 13 verses as Iunius in his Analisis illustrates that place and the arguments brought by Apollonius in this point with his answers to Vedelius arguments have a great deale of strength in them and I entreate you in your Reply if you will formally owne the giving of this power to the Magistrate that you will answer that second chapter of Apollonius But to draw toward a conclusion of the comparison of the effectualnesse between the two wayes supposing all you say of Submission Non-communion Protestation were true as also that you did give more to the Magistrate then the Presbyterian and that in spirituall matters in cases of difference injuries c. you would from the Church have recourse to the Magistrate and submit to his judgement and that you did allow and would stand to the Magistrates assisting and backing the sentence of non-communion against Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime as they judge meet notwithstanding you have determined it that without all controversie your way of Church proceeding will be every way as effectuall as the other can be supposed to be yet I must tell you it falls farre short of the Presbyterian way both in preventing and remedying sins errors offences and in promoting knowledge godlinesse and peace in the Churches For suppose non-communion of Churches were a way of Christ and a remedie the contrary to which I have at large showne yet you must confesse 't is but a lower remedy not an authoritative powererfull dreadfull remedie and meanes like that of excommunication which is the highest and greatest censure in the Church the Churches thunderbolt and Anathema a remedy and last meanes which recovers a sinner when all others will not as admonition suspension deposition and so when non-communion and Protestation will not In the Scriptures are laid downe many eminent fruits and effects of excommunication in the people of God which are not of any censure else and I might fill a book with the ends benefits and fruits of this censure laid down by Divines in their Tractates and common places of Ecclesiasticall discipline and excommunication but I will name only that of the Professors of Leyden Excommunication is the last remedie and the sharpest for the subduing of the flesh in a man and for the quickning of the spirit and the most efficacious example least the sound part should be corrupted But against them who persevere in their contumacie and impenitencie 't is the only meanes to free the house of God of leaven and the Church of Christ from scandals and so to vindicate the Word and Sacraments from prophanation and the Name of God from the blaspheming of them without Now pray shew us in the Scripture any where the excellent fruits benefits ends of non-communion of Churches and Protestation against them as we can of excommunication in 1 Cor. 5. 5. 2 Cor. 2. 6 7 8 9 10. 2 Thess. 3. 14. 1 Tim. 1. 20. And then for that other remedie of the Magistrates power added to non-communion to eeke out wherein non-communion may be defective to excommunication and for that purpose you say you give more to the Magistrates power that so what you faile and come short in Ecclesiasticall power you may make it up in giving more civill power in Ecclesiasticall causes the result of which must needs be this that though in your Church-way you have not so much Ecclesiasticall authoritative power for miscarriages and for reducing Churches that fall into heresie and schisme yet you give more civill power and allow the Magistrate more to interpose for helping and reducing so that lesse Ecclesiasticall power and authority with a large civill power to back it will be every way as effectuall as much Ecclesiasticall authority with a small civill power But of this I shall shew you your mistake because the question is of Church matters and matters of conscience and the inward man and of the Kingdom of Christ Now the remedies and meanes appointed for these are spirituall and Ecclesiasticall namely spirituall punishments Christ saith my Kingdom is not of this world and the Apostle 2 Cor. 10. 3 4 5. The weapons of our warfare are not carnall but mighty through God to the pulling downe of strong holds by which the spirit and the inward man even every thought is subjected to the obedience of Christ spirituall remedies and meanes must be used in the Kingdome of Christ and by them Christ doth his worke and hence in Ecclesiasticall discipline and those scandalls in the Church which is the point in hand punishments in the body or in the purse c. which can be by the power of the Magistrate have no place at all neither can such meanes which are of a different kind from the spirituall Kingdome of Christ produce those effects which belong to that heavenly Kingdome 'T is out of the sphere of the activity of the politicall Magistrate to subdue the inward man or to inflict spirituall punishment upon the consciences And there is nothing more common in the writings of the most learned and orthodox Divines then to shew that the civill power and government of the Magistrate and the Ecclesiasticall government of the Church are toto genere disjoyned and thereupon the power of the Magistrate by which he deales with the corrupt manners and disorders of his people is in the nature and specificall reason distinct from Ecclesiasticall discipline For the power of the Magistrate by which he punishes sin doth not subserve to the Kingdome of Christ the Mediator that he may apply efficaciously to the elect ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã of the Propheticall and Priestly office of Christ he doth not affect the inward man and conscience with spirituall punishment neither is this instituted of God and sanctified as the meanes for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of Christ. Hence also by Divines the manifold difference between the censure of excommunication and the punishment of the Magistrate is observed Zanchius doth accurately shew the difference between them The cause of excommunication is not the punishment of sinne but the salvation of the sinner and the edification of the Church and the glory of God but the scope of the civill Magistrate and his office is that he should punish the sinne it selfe neither dââ¦th it looke to the salvation or damnation of the offender whereupon although the sinner repent yet he doth not spare but punisheth according to his office But the Church according to Christs doctrine doth not strike with the spirituall sword unlesse he be impenitent neither is this done for death but for salvation
therefore where any one repââ¦nts the Church receives him so that in substituting the Magistrates power in defect of excommunication and giving a great deale more civill power for want of spirituall to make it as availeable for those spirituall ends of the Church is to leave the proper remedies and meanes and to take up others and I would desire you to answer me whether the proper remedies and meanes appointed for such ends and uses or the improper remedies nay remedies appointed and intended mainly for other ends be most effectuall and powerfull to accomplish those ends as also whether a part of a proper remedy being assisted and backt with a great proportion of a remedy of another nature and kind can be as effectuall as the whole remedy and meanes as for instance whether a little grace assisted by civility and fairenesse of nature will doe as much to overcome lusts and destroy the flesh as the highest degrees of grace that Saints may attaine unto and whether a little spirituall knowledge seconded with a great deale of common and outward knowledge is as availeable for a Christian conversation as great measures of spirituall knowledge though a man have but a little knowledge in Philosophy Physick Law c. But more particularly to let you see that your recourse unto the Magistrate and the Magistrates assisting and backing the sentence of non-communion is not comparable to that of excommunication and Presbyteriall government I shall commend to your consideration these eight following particulars First There may be many sins and errors which the Christian Magistrate meddles not with are not matters of his cognisance if you would have recourse to him or if the sentence of non-communion be pronounced against a Church because of impenitencie in them he hath nothing to doe to assist and back it there are no laws for such things which yet being spirituall evills and prejudiciall to the souls of men should be dealt with to recover men out of them Learned Zanchius in his differences that he gives between the censure of excommunication and the Magistrates censure observes this for a speciall one There are many wickednesses against which the Magistrate truly Christian doth not use to proceed neither is bound by his Laws as for instance private fallings out hatreds c as also many evill manners both domesticall and publike which doe not disturbe the publike peace or the publike good but the Church ought not to bare these but to correct them according to Christs institution Now what will you doe in this case here your recourse of submission to the Magistrate with the Magistrates backing non-communion faile you and conduce nothing at all Secondly In case the Magistrates be of those Churches and chiefe in those sins and miscarriages for which non-communion is denounced against those Churches as may easily fall out how will you have the sentence of non-communion now backed and assisted both those Churches and the Magistrates members of them shall have nothing to back non-communion to make it equivalent to excommunication nay I aske of you who bring in more of the Magistrates power to supply the want of excommunication where the particular Church will not and the Classes may not what shall be done with the Magistrates offending what meanes hath God left for the recovery of them you cannot imagine they will make use of their power against themselves now if they may not have spirituall remedies and censure as of excommunication this principle of the Magistrates power falls short here whereas in Presbyteriall government ther 's a remedie and redresse for all and certainly Gods ways of governing his Church provides for all whereas yours falls short 3. What if upon the sentence of non-communion denounced against a Church or Churches the Magistrate judge otherwise and hold the sentence of non-communion unjust and will not assist it which may ordinarily fall out what effectuall meanes hath the offending Church of being reduced now by vertue of the Magistrates power and what must be done in this case May the Magistrate revoke that sentence of the Church or Churches offended and declare it null and cause the Churches who passed the sentence to recall it and to continue their communion and suppose those Churches will not revoke it but stand to their act what shall be done in this case who must judge now between these Churches and the Magistrate may the Magistrate now by his power which you give him in Ecclesiasticals instead of backing the sentence of non-communion against a Church miscarrying as the Church supposed now turne his power against the Church for denouncing the sentence of non-communion uojustly as the Magistrate judgeth and not only declare it void but punish this Church or Churches for denouncing such a sentence of non-communion and declaring and protesting to all other Churches that they may doe the like and what if all the Churches protested to will continue to renounce communion with the Church censured with the sentence of non-communion notwithstanding the Magistrates refusing to assist that sentence nay though he declare it void or what if upon the Magistrates declaration some of the Churches give the righ-hand of fellowship againe but others will not what must the Magistrate or the Churches doe in these cases and the like consider well of it whether this effectuall way of yours the Magistrates assisting and backing the sentence of non-communion instead of a powerfull meanes to relieve injured persons or reduce Churches will not prove a meanes of great differences and divisions as well between the Churches and the Magistrate as between the Churches themselves 4. Must the Magistrate assist and back the sentence of non-communion against the Church or Churches offending and persisting therein upon the comming of it to him and so punish it according to the nature of the crime as he judges meet without first hearing what the Church can say for it selfe or must he first heare them both and in case more Churches mutually renounce communion with one another and protest against each other with other particulars instanced in about the remedie of non-communion under the fourth generall head what shall he doe in these cases must he heare all 5. What Magistrate or Magistrates doe you meane to whom in Ecclesiasticall causes you will have recourse unto and that must assist and back the sentence of non-communion Doe you meane the supreame and chiefe Magistrate the highest powers only or all inferiour Magistrates in their severall stations and divisions where these things fall out as Majors of Cities and Townes Justices of Peace and such Magistrates or doe you meane the Christian Protestant Magistrate or Magistrates though Heathens Popish Arrians or doe you meane by the Magistrates power that there shall be Courts of civill Judicature erected in every division of the Counties to heare the differences that fall out between Churches offended one with another c. or what doe you meane If you understand the supreame Magistrate
only and the highest powers can they alwayes heare or attend unto through the many great businesses of State affaires all the differences scandals schismes that both in particular Churches and betweene Churches will fall out in a Kingdome or Nation in this way of non-communion and protestation against one another especially in Independent Churches where people make Churches and Ministers in that way they doe and have no fixed rules nor certaine way I warrant the supreame Magistrate and higher Powers Kings and Parliaments shall have something to doe to back the sentence of non-communion and to heare all causes and differences But if you understand the inferiors also Majors Bailiffs c. I represent it to you what fit judges most of them are to judge and determine of such difficult Ecclesiasticall causes in heresies schismes scandals c. which fall out amongst the Ministers of Churches and between Churches themselves Againe If you understand the Magistrate indefinitely and obsolutely any Magistrate though Heathen Popish Arrian as Mr Robinson doth in his Apologie and I find it in your manuscripts and principles that you take it so judge then in your selves if the Church hath not remedies among themselves how fit are they who understand not Christian religion nor the doctrines according to godlinesse to judge of the great differences between Churches and to assist the sentence of non-communion against Churches if the Apostle Paul reproved the Corinthians so in 1 Cor. 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. for cariying matters from the Church even the smallest matters the things that pertained to this life unto unbeleevers how would he blame the carrying of things spirituall and Ecclesiasticall unto Heathen from the Ministers of the Church or doe you understand that there shall be Courts of civill Judicature to appeale unto c. then there must be certaine Laws and rules agreed upon as for particular Churches so between the Churches according to which they must proceed to back the sentence of non-communion and protestation c. which yet you practise not Now the many inconveniences that would come of such Courts you may easily fore-see so that this is not like to be an effectuall remedy 6. What shall be done in case there be no Magistrates at all to take any notice in matters of Religion and Church government but leave Churches to themselves in that as it was with you in Holland there were no Magistrates medled with the government and order of your Churches nor none to have recourse unto or to backe the sentence of Non-communion you being in a place and State where no outward violence or any other externall authoritie either civill or Ecclesiasticall would have enforced you what shall in this case supply the defect of Excommunication and of an Ecclesiasticall authoritative power Hath not the wisdome of Christ provided remedies in the Church for all the internall necessities of the Church and constituted it a perfect bodie within it selfe 7. Whether can it be rationally and probably thought that in an ordinary way the having recourse unto the Magistrate though orthodox and the submitting to his particular cognizance and examination of such causes with his backing the sentence of Non-communion in Ecclesiasticall causes in cases of sinnes errours differences that arise in Churches should be as effectuall and sufficient a remedie as the way of Classes and Synods and that the Magistrates interposing their authoritie and power of another nature will be as good as the Authoritative Presbyteriall Governement in all the subordinations and proceedings of it Now that 't is not probable it should be or that it should serve in stead of Synods and Classes take these probable and rationall grounds 1. All wanton wits and erroneous spirits all your Sectaries and Novelists are rather for this way then for Synods and Classes though most of them would have neither to meddle at all in matters of Religion as the Socinians Anabaptists c. Thus the Arminians were against Classes and Synods and all for the power of Magistrates and it was their chiefe Engine by which in those sad daies of the Netherlands they encreased their partie and came to such a height Sectaries hope that if they can decline the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies they sha'l what by flatterie and what by delay through other great businesses of State and what by sophismes and fallacies and what from principles of policie in many States-men and what by friends c. effect that which they have no hopes at all by Ecclesiasticall Assemblies they know the Presbyteries and Synods are able to discover their fallacies answer their arguments will mind those businesses wholly are not to be wrought upon by State principles c. Now if in experience and reason this way were as powerfull to reduce a Church or Churches from schisme and heresie they would never be so much for this way rather then Presbyterie 2. Naturall reason dictates that they are best able and fittest to judge and resolve of things who doe above others give themselves to the studie and profession of those things as Physitians can best judge of wholesome meats and diseases and Lawyers of the lawes and differences arising in them a Counsell of Warre of difficult cases and points in warre And therefore in things that belong to the spirituall good of the soule and the Church the Ministers of the Church are most likely to resolve and to remedie things Can it ordinarily be expected that the Magistrate should in matter of doctrine and opinion in matters of schisme and in matters of worthinesse and abilities of Ministers and in many cases that arise be able to judge and determine matters as the Ministers and Pastours of the Church 3. Those who have most time and leisure to attend a worke and businesse to sift into it to heare all that can be said and can mind it they being able and understanding are likeliest to determine best and bring things to a good end we see in experience that able and honest men through multitudes of businesse delay long slubber over businesses and cannot doe things so effectually as they ought and seldome prove good Arbitratours in difficult intricate cases Now Magistrates through many great and necessarie businesses of State having large dominions cannot so well attend as the Classes and Synods to heare and examine all the differences scandals schismes c. that doe and may arise both in Churches and betweene Churches especially as would fall out in the Independent way and particularly in this way of submission Non-communion and mutuall Protestation but matters would be delayed and neglected or escape wholly or be hudled up 4. To these I might adde as followes that the Magistrate through his just greatnesse would not know the spirits and dispositions of Ministers people nor of other matters so well as the Ministers who live among them and converse with one another frequently neither would there be that easinesse of accesse to the Magistrates and great persons as
to their Ministers and Pastours with other such like 8. But in Ecclesiasticall matters and differences upon the Magistrates interposing his power what is it you will submit unto and what will you allow him to doe And what is that power you will give him in backing the sentence of Non-communion upon his judgement of the cause and how farre and in what will you obey him that so we may understand how this Civill power is intended by you for a remedie and helpe in Churches and betweene Churches For instance will you submit not to gather Churches nor set up Assemblies withoââ¦ââ¦is leave and upon complaints of the many mischiefes and differences occasioned thereupon will you upon his hearing both sides and judging that those who are gathered shall be dissolved dissolve them and not meet in those wayes any more Will you upon some members complaining to the Magistrate of some Minister or Ministers in their Church for preaching erroneous and unprofitable doctrine meere novelties subtilties and the Magistrate upon particular cognizance and examination of such causes judging that he shall preach no more will the Minister forbeare upon it or the Church to heare him in case the Minister would not yeeld will the Church now goe chuse a new and Orthodox Minister upon it or in case a member or more be unjustly excommunicated and they complaine to the Magistrate who calling the Church to account and hearing both sides shall judge on the Complaiants side and now order the Church to absolve him and order them to confesse their sinne publikely and appoint them to keepe a day of humiliation for it and order them to give him such a summe of mony for the wrong trouble and losse of his time in following the businesse against them will the Church now submit to doe all this yea or no What say you to these and the like cases Now I aske you this in the close because you pretend a great deale of submission to the Magistrate and to give him much power which though you did grant yet for the many reasons and grounds alreadie specified this would not countervaile the way of the Presbyterians in their spirituall censures by Presbyters and Synods whether you clearely and plainly allow this to the Magistrate because I finde in Manuscripts and heare that in Sermons by men of your Church-way the contrarie is publikely preacht and held as for example in that Treatise about a Church which goes under one of your names there is this passage with more to that purpose The Saints need not expect their power or leave for to gather together so as without it such a combination is unlawfull nor should they forbeare it out of conscience of the Magistrates prohibition indeed if the Magistrate should force or compell them to forbeare or persecute them they may forbeare actuall assembling Act. 8. 1. not because the Magistrate forbids it but in mercie to themselves And indeed about a Church Christian Magistrates have no more power then Heathen Magistrates had So that this is spoken by you where Magistrates are Christian and where Churches are already setled And adde to this that M. S. in his Reply in defence of your Apologie is against coercive and coactive power in matters of Religion and that you all hold a toleration and that the Magistrates ought not to hinder men or punish them for the matter of their consciences how then notwithstanding all your discourse of the power of the Magistrate which added to Non-communion will be an effectuall meanes to releeve persons injured to reduce Churches and persons going in schisme and errours shall persons injured be remedied or Churches and persons reduced For suppose the persons or Churches that now fall into such errours and schismes will pretend nay 't is so really that they in their conscience hold errours for truths and thereupon with-draw from such Churches to others nay suppose those who now receive these new truths should cast out of their fellowship and excommunicate some for holding otherwise as for instance a Church falling into Antinomianisme should censure some of their members that remain orthodox for legal Christians and for being enemies to free-grace and should judge themselves bound to doe so in these and such like cases what remedie is there for miscarrying Churches by all the power of the Magistrate you pretend to give to him But this is brought in here by you and given to him to put of that strong argument against your way and that you may have something for present to blind the eyes and stop the mouths of many that looke no further that it may serve your turne at such a straight whereas upon other principles you denie the Magistrate this when it shall come to be a matter of conscience And now by all the severall particulars under this fifth head the understanding Reader may observe that not only in many respects your non-Communion and Magistrates power are not a remedie comparable to the Presbyterian way not proper nor to the nature of the offences and things in question a way in stead of bringing things to an end redressing and mending matters amisse that will be but the beginning of more strife and making more differences and evils then either it sindes or can heale the mother and nurse of Confusions Disorders and endlesse contentions but also that all the power here pretended to be given to the Magistrate upon examination is no such matter nor will not amount to make good the ends propounded whereas the Presbyteriall Government here scandalized as either wholly inconsistent with this forme of Civill Government or else not giving it its due will be found by its principles not only to have powerfull spirituall remedies for all spirituall evils of the Church but will be found in many respects to make use of and to give honour and power to the Civill Magistrate as a nursing Father from first to last even in the ordinary way of the Order and Government of the Church beyond you besides what they give more in extraordinary cases in a Church miserably corrupted disordered c. Of which the Reader may read at large in Apollonius who was a great Presbyterian cap. 2. And so learned Zanchius in his Tractate de Magistratis shewes 't is in the power of the Magistrate not to suffer Heretickes nor erroneous persons to preach and he gives him coactive punitive power to cut them off Beza a great Presbyterian in his Epistles and other writings in matters of Religion doth not exclude the Magistrate but gives him that power in some things which you deny but besides that power they give the Magistrate they stand for as needfull in the Church Classes and Synods for the Government of it Zanchy shewes that discipline cannot take place where the Ministers never meet together the meââ¦ting of Ministers and Ecclesiasticall Synods we judge most necessary As no Politie Common-wealth or Kingdome can consist without their meetings Senates and Councels
so there is need of Synods for the governing of the Church and for the preventing of herââ¦fies In a word all things are loose in independent Government every one is left and may take liberty without controule to doe what is good in their owne eyes if they like not any Church whereof they are members they may goe to another nay a few in a Church disliking that Church may goe make a Church themselves and make Ministers and hold what they will as Mr Sympson did with some few more and since some have rent from Mr Sympsons Church as he from Mr Bridge The rules they goe by are loose nothing being fixed nor certaine among them and there can be no setlednesse of mind nor consistence of Principles in that way simple and well meaning people according to their Principles must be drawn till they come to that to hold that there are no true Churches nor Ministers at all yet upon the earth which principle begins to take and spread already amongst many Independents In a word that Liberty and loosenesse which is from first to last in Independent Government holding no authoritative Ecclesiasticall power out of the particular Congregation to remedie or prevent any matter and that which is in the particular Congregation being on many Grounds and Principles of theirs so slight and weake as the only subject of Excommunication being no other kind of sins then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light c. as that two or three Saints or now of late six or seven may with-draw from Churches defective and impure and make Churches and chuse all officers c. with other like so that what need they care then for that Church of which they are members though cast out seeing they can make new and have all to their owne minde be chiefe there is a dangerous temptation even to sober men to make them presume to broach that practise that which else they would never have done But in the Order and Government of the Reformed Churches there is consistence unitie and strength as is evident by a hundred yeares visible experience of Gods blessing from heaven upon them there is also a certainty and fixednesse of rules agreed on both for particular congregations for Classes and Synods there is an awing and preserving of officers and people in their bounds and keeping them from running out to errours c. there being no man be he never so able or subtill that can escape calling to account and censure Magistrates and Ministers have their power in the Church without usurpation and confusion and to conclude in the words of the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland were Magistrates and civill power acquainted with this order and government of the Church they would finde their authoritie increased their worke more easie and their places more comfortable thereby And now having given an answer to that part of your Apologie under that instance of the government and discipline of the Churches by speaking fully of those five heads unto which I referre all your discourse about the government and discipline of the Churches beginning in pag. 12. and ending in the 21. I will for a close speake something to some of your passages contained in this part of your Narration which could not so well be taken in nor so properly animadverted upon under those five heads without the Readers being much confounded and entangled 1. To that passage p. 14. We had for the most part of the time we were abroad three Elders at least in each congregation whom we were subject to I aske if the Churches were subject to the Elders you many times having but three and sometimes but two nay one Elder the government of your Churches then was either Monarchicall Government or Oligarchicall at best And if the Churches were subject to the Elders who were the Elders subject to the Elders then were under no subjection but if the Churches were subject to the Elders and not the Elders to the Churches riddle me what is the meaning of all those phrases the Church still did so and so not the Elders the Church at Roterdam deposed M. Ward and not M. Bridge and an Elder or two and so M. Nye and M. Goodwin the Ministers were sent by the Church and that Church which had offended confessed their sin and restored their Minister to his place againe which sure was not M. Bridge and a lay-Elder or two 2. To those passages of Churches offended calling to an account Churches offending proceeding to full and open tryals and examinations to Iudiciarie charges and deposition of witnesses openly before all commers of all sorts as can be expected in any Court where Authority about them enjoyns it and of a particular Church being censurable by neighbour Churches about them I desire to put this disjunctive proposition Either this power of calling to an account examining deposing witnesses censuring them c. are acts of ruling and government and in the Churches challenged acts of subjection or they are not if you grant they be acts of rule and government then there is an authoritative power which Churches have out of their Churches and you grant it in such acts at least though not in that of excommunication But whether if it be so in these that of excommunication will not follow let it be considered for either the censure of excommunication is not founded upon the common grounds on which callings to account and some censures are or else there is some proper peculiar grounds in the nature of that ordinance or in the Scripture forbidding that though allowing others neither of which will be found to have a foundation in Scripture and if so why then doe you make all this adoe of entire full compleate power within your selves and are against the combination of Churches in Classes and Presbyteries to doe that constantly certainely and presently upon scandals that fall out in a Church which you doe at best but at uncertainties and after a long time when the remedy may come too late a yeare or two afterwards But if you answer these are no acts of government and rule in this Church or Churches but meerely acts of consultation advice perswasion and that when the Churches offended have heard all they only give their counsell and advice and commend it to them but it is in their liberty to doe or not to doe for though they submit to a hearing and open triall by vertue of the principle of submission yet they submitted not to stand to the determination and agreement of that Church or Churches I answer if you meane no more then the bare power of counsell and advice in all this and no power of Authoritative determination and decision this is no more nor you give no more to the Churches offended then to particular Christians who may counsell them in such cases And why then doe you hold out such words and your practise of a full and
open triall and what speake you of roome for complaints and of subjecting to an open triall and review of what can be brought and of being censurable by neighbour Churches c. Whether be not all these the usuall phrases and expressions of acts of power and government can there be so much as triall and examination and judiciary charges and deposition of witnesses without authority much lesse censure can you ever shew it either in civill government in Common-wealth or in Ecclesiasticall in Churches out of Scripture or stories where all these acts were exercised and practised by persons who only had power of counsell and advice and if you cannot how can you make it good but that this must be more then advice and counsell namely authoritative power It is given as a rule by your selves that in matters of a common nature 't is in Ecclesiasticall government as in civill Now if in all civill Assemblies all these acts and practises be acts of authority and government why holds it not so in Ecclesiasticall And further to reason though Churches be sisters and equall each considered by it selfe yet in cases of offence and difference between Churches the Churches complained and appealed unto to whom the rest submit should now be greater and have more power in this thing then the Churches submitting and their acts should be authoritative as in reason 6 or 8 men falling out and choosing and submitting to others to heare the businesse and make an end of it these are now greater and have a power and authority over these quo ad hoc and in these acts and what they doe are acts of power which they must stand unto or suffer the penalty Thirdly You speake more then once upon occasion of this scandall committed in that Church at Rotterdam of Churches as in the plurall number sister Churches to be consulted with before hand and of your Churches mutually and universally acknowledging that principle of submission and how that Church ââ¦hich with others was most scandalized did by Letters declare their offence and of requiring a full and publike hearing before all the Churches of our Nation Now what and where were those other Churches of whom all this is spoke I grant that at Arnheim was one Church that Mr Bridges Church should have consulted with or have submitted to but where were any other Churches I will yeeld the Church at Arnheim might by letters declare their offence but I know not what other Churches did by letters doe the like I grant the Church at Arnheim was a Church of our Nation before whom the offending Church did yeeld a publike hearing but I know of no other I will not question but that the Church at Arnheim and Mr Bridges Church did upon the offence of deposing Mr Ward acknowledge that principle of submission and submit to one another but I doubt no other did then mutually submit for besides the Church at Arnheim offended and Mr Bridges Church offending there was no other Church of your way and communion for the offending Church to consult with or that did write letters or before whom the businesse was heard c. for I suppose and judge Mr Simpsons new Church being at that difference with Mr Bridges Church and Mr Bridge with him Mr Bridges Church should not have consulted with Mr Simpsons before hand and that Mr Bridges Church would not have yeelded the principle of submission to have submitted to a full triall and examination of all proceedings before Mr Simpsons and in case Mr Simpsons Church had sent letters declaring their offence they would have declined it as partiall and as accounting them the parties offending and I never heard that Mr Simpson with some messengers of his Church joyned with the messengers of Arnheim in the triall of that businesse of Mr Ward or sate as Judges c. so that I cannot tell why you use Churches in the plurall number thus all along in that businesse but that the Reader might conceive for your greater authority and esteeme and for the greater solemnity of the action there were more Churches besides that at Arnheim Fourthly For those two Gentlemen who were sent with the Ministers of the Church offended to require an account whether were those Gentlemen Elders of the Church of Arnheim or private members only If they were not Elders why were private members sent before Elders shew us a rule for that and satisfie us how private persons and no officers of the Church should represent the Church but if they were Elders why doe you name them Gentlemen only and not speake of them as officers 5. Whether though you make so sure of it yet it be not to be doubted upon the grounds of reason and light of nature that it is not more brotherly and more suited to that liberty and equality Christ hath endowed his Churches with but a point of greater authority inequality and usurpation for foure men grant them to be a Church representative to take upon them what those foure members of Arnheim did to a whole Church for so many dayes so fully and judiciarily to proceed as you write in the 21 page then for a whole Presbyterie of Ministers and Elders or a grave Synod to call to an account and heare the offences of two or three in a particular Church and together with that Church representative to decree such censures as publike acknowledgement of their offences or excommunication c. Sixtly I much wonder how you can call the meeting of Mr Goodwin and Mr Nye with two Gentlemen more calling Mr Bridge with the rest of that Church supposed to be delinquents such a solââ¦mne Assembly the solemnity of which hath left as deepe an imprââ¦ssion upon your hearts of Christs dreadfull presence as ever you have beeâ⦠present at Certainely you have either been but at few solemne Assemblies where Christs dreadfull presence hath been or else your phancie was mighty high at that time as to make such a deepe impression upon you of a dreadfull presence as ever you have been at Let me aske Mr Nye what was this Assembly beyond the solemne generall Assembly of Scotland where you were present when the great solemne Covenant of the Kingdomes passed of which you write so highly into England or was it beyond the Assembly of Divines wherein not only two of you are for consultation but all you ââ¦ive with so many other godly Divines where instead of two Gentlemen assisting then here the Worthies of both Houses Lords and Commons assist nay a Theatre of all other the most judicious and severe where much of the piety learning and wisedome of two Kingdomes are met in one as your selves confesse afterwards in the 27 page I am of the mind there are ordinarily many Assemblies and where you may have been that have a more dreadfull presence of Christ then that had The Church meeting to partake in the Lords Supper cal'd the dreadfull and terrible houre by some of the Fathers
and now of later yeares Scotland of old having been troubled with the Separatists and the Churches of France by Morellius against whom Sadeel did write and Beza in his Epistles writes against that principle of the power of the people that nothing is ratified except the people present by their expresse suffrages doe decree it and against private mens prophecying in the Church and of late though the controversie be growne so high yet Divines both in Holland and Scotland as your selves confesse have writ against your way and can see no light Iââ¦m it and in a generall Assembly of Scotland since our Parliament the point being moved and debated there it was concluded against by the whole Assembly nemine contradiconte as a Letter written from that Assembly to many Ministers in the City which I heard read at a meeting testifies neither are any of the Reformed Churches yet satisfied by all that hath been written about your Independent government nor our present Assembly by all they have heard from you after so many dayes speaking for your way So that what the Reformed Churches stand for now is not as comming new out of Poperie and so wanting light as you assert and therefore though they had not Apostolicke Infallibilitie yet they might well be in the right for Church-government and therefore the Reformed Churches and the Church of England too judging of government now after above 80. years comming out of Poperie and after hearing all that hath been said and that you can say now after almost a yeares sitting in the Assembly They yet judge Presbyteriall government by Classes and Synods to be the true forme of Church-government against your Independencie so that now the ground you going upon being taken away you cannot without great prejudice to the Reformed Churches so peremptorily judge them as you doe in this place of your Apologie And as your practise cannot be without prejudice to them and the imputation of Schisme in you from them to set up new Churches and divide from them upon these grounds so this passage of yours here against all the Reformed Churches cannot avoyd the suspition of great arrogancie and pride to proclaime your selves to see more then all the Churches in worship and government and to judge them so 'T is a high presumption that five such young men as you are and no deeplier studied should thus proudly and tanquam ex tripode so magisterially conclude against all the Reformed Churches Certainly had you had the humilitie of many of Gods servants you would rather have feared and questioned whether you might not have been mistaken in your grounds and therefore modestly have propounded your doubts to the Assembly to have resolved them rather then before the points ever came to be debated in the Assembly in such matters where you goe against the common streame of all Reformed Churches to have thus professedly peremptorily and resolvedly both in this Section and in the next pag. 24. determined the questions And brethren let me friendly mind you who are you five of what standing reading graces to take so much to your selves and to be so peremptory that you should see that which all the Reformed Churches doe not nor are not able by any of your Arguments nor what else is extant to see or be convinced of But as for the close to this part of the Section concerning the Calvinian Reformed Churches that it may hopefully be conceived that God left England more unreformed as touching Government and Worship then the neighbour Churches were c. It is a strange speech and savours of a strange high conceit of your owne way of Independencie and of your great light and abilitie in this Assembly where the Church of England is to be reformed and to speake plainly the English and sence of all these lines is this That it may be hopefully conceived that God in his secret yet wise and gracious dispensation hath all this long time for above 80. years left England more unreformed and of his infinite mercy on purpose reserved it for this present Assembly that M. Goodwin M. Nye c. might bring a new light in Church government and order and so Scotland and the Neighbour-Churches might be new-moulded into their way But how ever some of you are men of strong fancies and all of high confidences of your owne opinions and wayes yet I beleeve you will be deceived at this time how ever you may comfort your selves and Churches with the hopes of prevailing at another time saying that Presbyterie shall fall as Episcopacie hath done after it's time one of that way for want of arguments having used such words to me and that M. Goodwin M. Nye c. will not be able to effect what they desire and hope for but it may be rather hopefully conceived that in stead of the reformed Churches comming to them these five members of the Assembly at last with others to upon this glorious Reformation will be brought to joyn with other reformed Churches according to the solemn Covenant and oath themselves have entred into We found also which was as great an affliction to us as our former troubles and banishment our opinions and wayes wherein we might seeme to differ environed about with a cloud of mistakes and misapprehensions and our persons with reproaches Besides other calumnies as of schisme c. which yet must either relate to a differiââ¦g from the former Ecclesiasticall government of this Church established and then who is not involved in it as well as we or to that constitution and government that is yet to come and untill that be agreed on established and declared and actually exist there can be no guilt or imputation of schisme from it That proud and insolent title of independencie was affixed unto us as our claime the very sound of which conveyes to all mens apprehensions the challenge of an exemption of all Churches from all subjection and dependence or rather a trumpet of defiance against what ever power spirituall or civill which we doe abhorre and detest or else the odious name of Brownisme together with all their opinions as they have stated and maintained them must needs be owned by us Although upon the very first declaring our judgements in the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church discipline and likewise since it hath been acknowledged that we differ much from them And we did then and doe here publikely professe we beleeve the truth to lye and consist in a midle way betwixt that which is falsely charged on us Brownisme and that which is the contention of these times the Authoritative Presbyteriall government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it I desire you to resolve me and the Reader how the first sentence in this Section Your opinions and wayes environed about with a cloud of mistakes and misapprehensions and your persons with reproaches can stand with those words in the 24 page We found many of those mists that
godly Protestant party and of much distracting them and of making severall interests Whence have come all the rents and divisions to speake of in the godly Protestant party all the ââ¦ets stopps and delayes in the intended Reformation but from you and by occasion and meanes of you The authority of your names holding these opinions having the reputation of Schollars and of excellent Preachers whereby you are cryed up of many and so much followed your interest and favour in too many considerable persons have drawne so much had it not been for your sakes these rents and divisions had never come to this head there had not been that connivance nor such delayes of setling governement c. most of the rest of your way were in comparison contemptible both for name and gifts and could not have done that hurt and why then in a time by your own confession of absolute necessity of the neerest union and conjunction and all little enough to effect that Reformation intended and so long contended for against a common adversary that had both present possession to plead for it selfe power to support it and had injoyed a long continued settlement which had rooted it in the hearts of men have you done so much by preaching and acting to rend and divide the godly protestant party there was no absolute necessity just at that time when you did preach and stirre for your way for you to have done so affirmatives though they doe bind semper yet not ad semper there were greater truths in doctrine and in Reformation of government which you might have preached on for that time but there was an absolute necessity of the neerest union and conjunction I heartily with this first Reason and ground deepely layed to heart by you and then I know you must greatly repent for what you have done in this particular since your returne into England and had not God been and were he not the more gracious and better to us then ordinary your carriage and what hath been by your meanes would have spoiled our Reformation and hath done much to keepe the common Adversary in his present possession and long continued settlement but I pray God humble you for it and forgive you and seeing you knew and considered that it was the second blow that makes the quarrell and that the beginning of strife would have been as the breaking in of waters why were you not contented with the giving of the first blow and the first occasion of the quarrell both by your former preaching and practising but to adde this second great blow the writing of this Apologeticall Narration which though it be not on your parts the beginning of strife yet it will prove as the breaking in of waters and as the kindling of a fire not likely to be put out in hast 2. And this seconded by the instant and continuall advices and conjurements of many honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament to forbeare what might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference They having also by their Declarations to his Majesty professed their endeavour and desire to unite the Protestant party in this Kingdome that agree in fundamentall truths against Popery and other heresies and to have that respect to tender consciences as might prevent oppressions and inconveniences which hath formerly been I judge this ground seconding the former should have been powerfull with you to a deepe silence and forbearance every particular branch of it speaks strongly to you to forbeare what ever might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference Nay almost every word in it ââ¦s an argument to command The instant and continuall advices and conjurements of many honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament what might not all these have wrought and then take in also that they had by their Declarations to His Majestie c. and that they would have a respect to tender Consciences Now what could you almost have wished more or what better securitie for your selves and way A man would thinke all these might have commanded you not to have acted for your selves and way and certainly your fault was the greater in doing contrary and you are the more inexcusable had not this seconded the former yet your knowledge of the first was enough to have taken ingenuous spirits but this seconding the first it is too bad that you went contrary to the instant and continuall advices and conjurement of many Honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament As for those passages inserted in this Reason the Parliaments Declarations to his Majestie professing their endeavour and desire to unite the Protestant party in this Kingdome that agree in fundamentall truths and to have that respect to tender Consciences wherein you would insinuate that the Parliament had put you in some hopes of a Toleration and that grounded upon some passages in their Declarations had you named what Declarations speake so I could have perused and examined them and have returned you an answere I question it not from the words and sense but to put it out of doubt that the Parliament intends no Toleration in such words as having respect to tender consciences c. I referre you to the first and great Remonstrance and Declaration of the House of Commons wherein they declare the contrary and ingage themselves to the Kingdome against it answering to that as a Calumnie cast upon them to traduce their proceedings They infuse into the people that we meane to abolish all Church-Government and leave every man to his owne fancy for the Service and Worship of God absolving him of that obedience which he owes under God unto his Majestie whom we know to be intrusted with the Ecclesiasticall Law as well as with the temporall to regulate all the members of the Church of England by such rules of Order and Discipline as are established by Parliament which is his great Councell in all affaires both in Church and State And we doe here declare that it is farre from our purpose or desire to let loose the golden reynes of Discipline and Government in the Church to leave private persons or particular Congregations to take up what forme of Divine Service they please for we hold it requisite that there should be throughout the whole Realme a Conformity to that Order which the Lawes enjoyne according to the Word of God And we desire to unburthen the Consciences of men of needlesse and superstitious Ceremonies suppresse innovations and take away the monuments of idolatry And the better to effect the intended Reformation we desire there may be a generall Synod of the most grave pious learned and judicious Divines of this Island assisted with some from forraine parts professing the same Religion with us who may consider of all things necessary for the peace and good Government of the Church and represent the results of their Consultations
of this Apologie But the Reader may aske what is the plaine English of the streame of publike interest according to which there was so great danger the Assembly would swimme I answer I conceive one of these two things or else it is probable both are meant by the Apologists 1. That the Ministers of the Assembly for themselves and their fellow Ministers would stand for such a government as wherein the power should be in their own hands and not in the peoples to doe with them for maintenance and standing at their pleasure and therefore they would establish Presbyteriall government rather then Independent 2. The Parliament of England upon great Armies raised against them needing help calls in for the Kingdome of Scotland to assist them now the Scots being for Presbyteriall government and against Independent and desirous of uniformity in government between the Kingdomes therefore for gratifying the Scots the Assembly is like to be swayed that way is this the streame of publike interest meant by you oh how unworthy an insinuation is this and how prejudicall this will be to the Reformation in after times I desire you to consider of in coole blood and what the enemies will say of it the government and Reformation of this Church was not free not according to the word of God but what Scotland would have Englands need of Scotland made them at least swayed much to take up their government but how ever this is insinuated for the holding up the credit of your cause against the time the Assembly shall come to reject it as Apocripha yet I must tell you you foresaw that which is no such streame of publike interest nor no cause of disadvantage to you For the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland were not sent hither to put their government upon us but came as well to receive any light and help as to give and to come to us in what should be found upon debate more agreeable to the word as we to come to them and the Covenant of the Kingdomes doth not tye us to the Reformation of the Church of Scotland but binds us to Reformation according to the word of God and the example of the best reformed Churches and then requires both of us and them an uniformity according to the word of God And indeed the Assembly consisting of so many able learned and grave Divines where much of the wisdome piety and learning of two Kingdomes are met cannot well be thought to be carried away from the word by the streame of publike interest especially most of the Assembly being men not engaged by education or otherwise to any other of the reformed Churches or by former declarations of their judgements nor appointed by the Parliament to Presbyteriall government but left freely to be guided by the light of the word in this way of God communicated to them besides that the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland however they be present in the Assembly to heare debates and to give their Reasons yet never gave their voices in any point that hath passed the Assembly As for the close of this Section trusting God both with your selves and his own truth as he shall be pleased to manage it by us Had you in adventuring your selves upon this Assembly and therein really beleeving all the sorts of disadvantages as you here speake trusted God both with your selvs and that you call his own truth some of you would never have brought such arguments for your way as you have done And certainely if some of you did trust God as you ought with your selves c. you would not trust so much to your wits and policie nor be so full of reservations fetches doubtfull expressions as you are And brethren let me deale with you plainely I hope it may doe you good many speake of your policie and subtiltie some who are strangers to you yet being members of the Assembly and beholding your managing of your opinions and way there wonder that good men should be so politick and subtill as you are especially if the cause were good Moreover if in all matters of Doctrine we were not as orthodox in our judgements as our bretheren themselves we would never have exposed our selves to this triall and hazard of discovery in this Assembly the mixture of whose spirits the quick-sightednesse of whose judgements intent enough upon us and variety of debates about all sorts of controversies afoot in these times of contradiction are such as would be sure soone to find us out if we nourished any monsters or serpents of opinions lurking in our bosomes And if we had carried it so as that hitherto such errours were not afore-hand open to the view and judgement of all yet sitting here unlesse we would be silent which we have not been we could not long be hid But it is sufficiently known that in all points of doctrine which hitherto in the review and examination of the Articles of our Church or upon other occasions have been gone through our judgements have still concurred with the greatest part of our bretheren neither doe we know wherein we have dissented And in matters of discipline we are so farre from holding up the differences that occurre or making the breaches greater or wider that we endeavour upon all such occasions to grant and yeeld as all may see and cannot but testifie for us to the utmost latitude of our light and consciences professing it to be as high a point of Religion and conscience readily to own yea fall down before whatsoever is truth in the hands of those that differ yea though they should be enemies unto us as much as earnestly to contend for and hold fast those truths wherein we should be found dissenting from them and this is in relation to peace so also as a just due to truth and goodnesse even to approve it and acknowledge it to the uttermost graine of it though mingled with what is opposite unto us And further when matters by discussion are brought to the smallest dissent that may be we have hitherto been found to be no backward urgers unto a temper not only in things that have concerned our own consciences but when of others also such as may suite and tend to union as well as searching out of truth judging this to be as great and usefull an end of Synods and Assemblies as a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding determinations of truth one way Whether in all matters of Doctrine all of you be as Orthodox in your Judgements as your brethren themselves I question it though in the most Doctrines and in the maine I grant it I have been told of some odd things in matter of Doctrine preached by one of you five both in England and Holland and of some points preached in the Church of Arnheim never questioned there and since printed not very Orthodox as for instance amongst others that the soules of the Saints
doe not goe to heaven to be with Christ expresly contrary to the 2 Cor. 5. 6 8. and to Philip. 1. 23. now whether some of you may not hold those opinions seeing they were publiquely preached at Arnheim and never condemned as ever I heard I know not but have reason rather to suspect you doe how ever though you doe not nourish any Monsters or Serpents of opinions in your bosomes yet I feare you have running wormes in your heads and together with the gold silver and Ivory of Orthodox truths you have store of Apes and Peacocks conceits and toyes as strange coined distinctions new strained expositions of Scriptures odd opinions about the personall raigne of Christ on earth and I aske you what the annointing with oyle of sick persons as an Ordinance for Church-members and what the bringing in of Hymnes composed by the gift of a Church-member cum multis aliis are whether are not these strange conceits and how ever you may be free of Monsters and Serpents of opinions lurking in your bosomes yet there is much of a Monster and the Serpent lurking in this Apologie and to be sure one Monster of opinions you all hold generally and some of you have preacht for A Toleration of divers sects and opinions and let me tell you granting you five be so Orthodox and supposing your argument good to prove it exposing your selves to the hazard of discovery in this Assembly which is no concluding argument yet there are many members of those Churches to which you belong besides many other members of Churches of your way and communion whom I suppose must be tolerated as well as your selves that doe hold very odd and strange things Some of Arnheim hold strange conceits and some members of Mr Sympsons Church hold some of the points of the Anabaptists and daily the Independent Churches like Africa doe breed and bring forth the Monsters of Anabaptisme Antinomianisme Familisme nay that huge Monster and old flying serpent of the Mortality of the soul of man and indeed there is no end of errours that the Independent principles and practises lead unto As for those words if we had carried it so as that hitherto such errours were not aforehand open to the view and Iudgement of all yet sitting here unlesse we would be silent we could not be long hid c. I answer some one or two Heterodox opinions may be hid where men are Orthodox in the most especially if all points of doctrine have not been discussed nor reviewed as in the Assembly they have not many Articles of our Church not having yet been gone through so that your errours in doctrine may be behind and your triall of being Orthodox will be when the Assembly comes to these Articles Article 19 22 23. 26. and when that doctrine concerning the Lawfulness of a Toleration of divers sects and opinions shall come to be discussed But before I passe from this I desire the Apologists to remember and the Reader to observe they call the Church of England Our Church and so in the fift page of this Apologie Our own Congregations we meane of England So that if you meane as you here write then the Nationall Church of England is your Church and the Parochiall Congregations are yours and so you establish a Nationall visible Church under the new Testament and if so why doe you erect other Churches and withdraw from your own but if you doe not meane so nor beleeve there is a Nationall visible Church nor account your selves members of this Nationall Church why doe you speake so and call the Church of England your own Church and the Parochiall Churches your own Congregations As for that part of this Section which concernes your good carriage in the Assembly in matters of Discipline In matters of Discipline we are so farre from holding up the differences that occurre or making the breaches greater or wider that we endeavour upon all such occasions to grant and yeeld c. I not being present at the debates will say nothing against it but whether since the writing of your Apologie and the Assembly comming to the points of Discipline which are properly yours your free-hold you have been so faire and moderate endevouring upon all occasions to grant and yeeld to the utmost latitude of your light and Consciences that I doubt and your best friends are not satisfied in it but rather much offended and you have much lost your selves with them by your demeanour and way of managing matters of difference in the Assembly But supposing all you say of your selves in this Section were fully so both before and since your Apologie yet it were not much materiall nor much to be trusted to being upon the triall of your good behaviour for it is probable all that may be done out of policie in reference to the main designe of obtaining a Toleration which at first cannot be imagined to have any probabilitie of being gained without all seeming fairenesse and compliance and drawing neere to us and therefore this Apologie is so framed in the words phrases and composure of it that in it you have stretcht your selves to the utmost latitude and highest compliance with the Church of England and the Reformed Churches even beyond what is meant by you in our sence and in common acception and beyond what many of your followers will own As also you hide and reserve severall things you hold both in matter and manner that so by all this you might court the Parliament Assembly Reformed Churches to beare with such conscientious men who differ so little from them and are so moderate and temperate also in and about the debate of those differences but the Parliament and the Assembly are wise to see into and thorough these Artifices and to consider that if once a Toleration were granted there would quickly be discovered another face of things which hitherto stands behind the curtain As for this passage in the close of this Section your not being backward urgers unto a temper not only in things concerning your own consciences but others also such as may suit and tend to union as well as searching out of truth judging this to be as great and usefull an end of Synods as a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding determintions of truth one way I judge then you had but a weake ground to urge you to temper in matter of difference and I question whether you were so forward to a temper in the things that might suit and tend to union for I suppose you are so farie from holding that a great and usefull end of Synods a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding Determinations of truth one way as that you deny it I have read a letter out of New-England from a Minister of note there speaking of that Synod which met upon occasion of the Antinomians and Familists formally denying this power of binding
and occasion of this feare which displeases you made Catholiques by the lawes of the Emperours from Constantine down to these present Emperours How many did therefore remaine Donatists because they were there borne and no men did compell them to come out from them and to goe to the Catholique Church The terrour of these Lawes in the promulgation of which the Kings of the earth served the Lord did so profit all these that now others say thanks be to God who hath broken our bonds and hath translated us to the bond of peace others sory we did not know this to be the truth neither would we have learned it if we had been left to our libertie but feare made us attentive to know it Others say we were terrified from entring in by false feares which we should never have knowne to have been false but by entring in neither should we have entred in unlesse we had been compelled And so Augustine against Gaudentius speakes thus Whereas you thinke none must be forced to truth who are unwilling you are deceived not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God which makes those willing who when they were compelled were unwilling And in his books of Retractations he gives the experience of this fifth Reason as the ground of retracting what he had formerly writ and held in this point Learned Beza observed it in his time that Tolerations of sects and Libertie of conscience as it was called was the ground of filling Polonia and Transylvania with so many pestilent opinions which otherwise no people under the Sunne would have suffered and that if the Magistrate had tried by all meanes in Transylvania c. to have restrained that libertie they had not been brought to that condition which he judged no lesse miserable then Mahumetisme it selfe And he wishes that France had given Polonia an example of this one thing and showes the great difference between the peace and true liberty of conscience enjoyed at Geneva and in Polonia one granting Tolerations the other none So he shewes the benefit and good of compulsion I passe by that Augustine being taught by experience it selfe witnessed so often against the Donatists many to be of that disposition that they are by nothing more kept in dutie then by severity of Discipline so that what at first they left for feare of punishment afterwards they willingly cast away professing the sharpnesse used to have been very profitable We have seene also by our own experience in this intermysticall season though there hath been no formall Toleration yet for want of Government setled and people having been left to so great libertie multitudes are fallen and doe daily to Antinomianisme Anabaptisme Independencie yea to denie the Immortalitie of the Soule and then no expectation but many will fall more and more Independents and all kinde of Sectaries as long as they can have their libertie snuffe up the wind will not hearken to any way whereby they may receive satisfaction but if once the Magistrate declares and by laws concludes one way of Church-worship and Government then it may be they will heare Reason Men as long as they have any hopes will stand out who yet when they see no remedie will examine and consider Now what account God will exact for his Name prophaned for the Sacraments and Scriptures abused by the handling and administration of them who are not called and what answer must be made for the ruine of Soules harvest of sinne corruption of doctrine alwayes following the publike Toleration of heresies and schismes I humbly leave to be fully considered of and wisely prevented by the High Court of Parliament who must thinke that silence provokes and sufferance emboldens men to forsake Gods Truth and his Church even as in civill affaires the neglecting of justice maintains disorders 6. A Toleration of one or more different wayes of Churches and Church Government from the Church and Church Government established will be to this Kingdome very mischievous pernitious and destructive in regard of the effects and consequents of it how faire soever a Toleration may be pretended and how small soever the differences yet 't is of a vast and dreadfull consequence to this Kingdome Different Formes of Churches and Church Government in one state must needs lay a foundation of strife and division therein It is the admitting of a seed of perpetuall division within its selfe an opening a sluce to let in strife and contentions in all places publike and private Church and Common-wealth in Parliaments Corporations among the Ministers in Families Now how great an evill this is all wise states know and can stand with no Christian policie however it may agree with Machiavillian The different Interests and Principles of the Churches established and tolerated with other things concurrent especially in the partie tolerated apprehending themselves the weaker will be working in them to watch all advantages to grow and increase and to get into places and favour with great men and Princes as we see the Heretiques did in Ecclesiasticall Histories and the Arminians in the Netherlands with the Magistrates and will never rest working till they get the upper hand and suppresse the other But besides the continuall heart-burnings and divisions betweene the Ministers of the different Churches the people among themselves the husband and wife with the corruption of doctrine a Toleration will be a likely meanes of producing civill warres in this land and whereas now we have a warre between King and Parliament we may expect a warre amongst the people yea the Toleration desired would prove a mighty advantage for the Court party to make use of those sects and by enlarging some favours to them being the weaker partie to gain them by their help to overthrow the Government established and to advance the Prerogative the sad effects and mischiefes already without any formall Toleration of the different Churches and Governments doe appeare in the jealousies divisions delayes laying down of places in not being so active c. whereby the Court partie is strengthened Reformation hindred and the good partie weakned Now considering the many dangerous effects and consequents of a Toleration to this state and considering the small differences betweene the Apologists and the Presbyterians as themselves say and that they can for a need come to our Churches and partake in the Sacraments hold Communion with us as the Churches of Christ why should they have different Churches and Government allowed The Parliament upon so small a ground and needlesse a cause hath the lesse cause to give way to a Toleration which would certainely produce so great mischiefs and evils 7. Independencie and the Church way besides the evill of it in its selfe considered as being a schisme in forsaking the reformed Churches and constituting new the way of constituting Churches by the people the way of making their Ministers the refusing of beleevers and their children to the Sacraments
HAving diligently perused this Antapologia I find it so full and just and necessary an examination and discovery of the Apologeticall Narration both in matters of fact and of opinion that because I dare not as too many have the faith of our Lord Iesus Christ the Lord of glory with respect of persons I approve it to be imprinted and commend it Reader to thy most serious consideration Ia. Cranford ANTAPOLOGIA Or A Full Answer to the Apologeticall Narration OF Mr Goodwin Mr Nye Mr Sympson Mr Burroughs Mr Bridge Members of the Assembly of Divines Wherein is handled many of the Controversies of these Times viz. 1. Of a particular visible Church 2. Of Classes and Synods 3. Of the Scriptures how farre a Rule for Church Government 4. Of Formes of Prayer 5. Of the Qualifications of Church members 6. Of SubmissioÌ Non-CoÌmunioÌ 7. Of Excommunication 8. Of the Power of the Civill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticals 9. Of Separation and Schisme 10. Of Tolerations and particularly of the Toleration of Independencie 11. Of Suspension from the Lords Supper 12. Of Ordination of Ministers by the people 13. Of Church Covenant 14. Of Non-residencie of Church-members Humbly also submitted to the Honourable Houses of Parliament By THOMAS EDWARDS Minister of the Gospel Ephes. 4. 14. That we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the slââ¦ight of men and cunning craftinesse whereby they lie in wait to deceive Vers. ãâã But speaking the truth in love may grow up into him in all things which is the head even Christ. Matth. 24. 26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you Behold he is in the desart go not forth Behold he is in the secret chambers believe it not Augustinus Vincentio epist. 48. Non enim propter malos boni deserendi sed propter bonos mali tolerandi ââ¦ti sicut toleraverunt prophetae contra quos ãâã dicebant ãâã communionem sacramentorum illius populi relinquebant Bezae epist. prima D'Andreae Duditio lactabimusne libertatem conscientiis permittendam esse Minime ut haec quidem liberta intelligitur id est ut quo quisque modo volet Deum colat Est enim hoc mere diabolicum dogma Sinendum esse unumquemque ut si volet pereat Et illa est diabolica libertas quae Poloniam Transylvaniam hodiè tot pestibus implevit quas nullae alioqui sub sole regiones toleratent London Printed by G. M. for Ralph Smith at the Bible in Cornhill neer the Royall Exchange 1644. To the tender Consciensed scrupulous doubting Christian. DEare and beloved Christians for your salââ¦es in speciall who are apt to be troubled with many doubts and feares about the Constitution and Government of the visible Church and the way of Worship and Communion in it have I drawn up this present Answer as to undeceive you in the Apologists the Apologie and their Church-way so to satisfie you in your scruples and doubts about Presbyterie It was my love care and respect to tender consciences that more especially moved me at first now some seven yeares agoe to fall upon the more thorough studying and searching into the controversies of the Church c. And the grounds which now of late have afresh revived my thoughts and studies that way are 1. The recovering and reducing conscientious Christians who are not too far engaged 2. The setling some who are wavering and doubtfull 3. The keeping of others from falling Now the first borne of my latter thoughts and studies in this kind is this Antapologiâ⦠which I here recommend to you for a true glasse to behold the faces of Presbyterie and Independencie in with the beauty order strength of the one and the deformity disorder and weaknesse of the other And good Reader I have some reason to beleeve and hope that if you will indeed reade and consider looke impartially and throughly into this glasse you may be either changed into the image of it or at least so stumbled at Independencie as to be kept from falling into it and willing in the meane time to waite upon God in that way of his an Assembly of so many learned and godly Divines to see what he will be pleased to speake by them I at first intended and accordingly provided materials for a large Epistle to this Book the more to make way for it in the hearts and consciences of the people as well knowing there are laid in before hand by many of the Independent party many prejudices both against my person and the Book to hinder if possible the fruit and benefit of it yea to keep people from so much as reading any part of it that so receiving and beleeving the Independent Grounds without hearing or examining the other side they may be still kept in ignorance and error I had many thoughts and purposes in my Epistle to have given the Reader an accompt of my especiall call to the making this Answer as also to have laid downe the Principles and Rules I more especially went by in the studying of these controversies and then to have Apologized for my selfe and Book by answering some objections and clearing aspersions cast abroad in this mistaking age and by representing to the Reader my many sufferings constant labours c. and so to have compared my grounds moving me to make this Antapologia with the Apologists grounds occasioning their Apologeticall Narration and my Principles with their three Principles expressed in their Apologie and my sufferings troubles patience and labours with their exile and patience c. and then left them to the Reader to judge in those matters between us but conceiving the danger of this way in comparing with the Apologists least I might become a foole in glorying and runne into the same fault I charge upon the Apologists and least it might be thought I sought to commend my Answer by such wayes rather then by the strength of the discourse it selfe I resolved to forbeare all those comparisons and vindications of my selfe and to refer all to God and that I may not hold the Reader too long in the portch I will only insist somewhat upon justifying and clearing the lawfulnesse of the way and manner of this Answer and the grounds I goe upon for matters of fact reported in it and this I must doe of necessitie for besides other grounds calling for it within these few dayes just before the Antapologie was comming forth a Pamphlet entituled The Anatomist Anatomized was printed rather to prepossesse the Reader against the Antapologie then to answer the Anatomie of Independencie as all may see and to be a shelter rather against this shower as the Anatomizer calls it ready to fall then to dry up the drops already fallen But ãâã shall by the helpe of God not only satisfie the Reader that this covering is too narrow and the stuffe too slight to keep out the shower from wetting but make an advantage of it even
and had not the truth constrained me my call to this worke beene strong and the cause of God and Reformation much in my eye I had out of my personall love and respect to some of the Apologists given over the worke I can and am ready to doe them any service of love even the meanest to wash their feet and should much rejoyce in their happy union and growing into one body with us in this Reformation And let not this Answer for the truth and plainnesse of it be branded for a bitter rayling malitious Answer but let this also be added to the former premises that the Apologists needed such an Answer as should not flatter nor extoll them but be free and plaine for the truth is the Apologists have been too much flattered both in their persons and Church-way and they are undone for want of being dealt with plainely and freely a candle hath been too much held to them and I hope this Answer may doe much good even to abate their swellings and confidence and if many of the Ministers would deale more plainely with them it would be better both for them and us I remember a passage of Calvin in an Epistle of his to Melancthon concerning Luther which may be applied to the Ministers in reference to the Apologists how that if there were that mind in all of us which ought to be some remedy might be found And certainly we transmit an unworthy example to posterity whilst we cast away all liberty rather then we will offend one man and will not his vehemencie the more rise and grow whilst all beare with him and suffer all things c. 4. Answ. The writing of Books against the errors and opinions though of good men is not speaking against good men or opposing godlinesse when the Apologists in their Apologie writ against Authoritative Presbyteriall Government and in page ãâã and 24 of theiâ⦠Apologie doe professedly declare they judge the Calvinian Reformed Churches to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves and that the truth lyes in the ââ¦ddle way betwixt Authoritative Presbyteriall government c. did they speake against the Saints and all the godly Ministers in those Churches when Paul withstood Peter to the face because he was to be blamed for his withdrawing and separating did Paul speake against the Apostles of Christ or speake evill of the Saints no more doe I in writing this Booke Good Reader Not to deââ¦ine thee longer from enââ¦ing into the house it selfe lay all things together consider wisely of persons and things and have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ the Lord of glory with respect of persons Accept and take in good part what is now brought to thy hand as intended for thy spirituall good for the recovering or preserving thee from errors on the right hand and let love cover any mistakes or faults thou maist meet with in it I am but one against five as also in so many sheets there may well be Errata and all things not so strong in much writing a mans pen may slip and mistake and with long waking a watchfull man may winke now and then consider also this Answer hath been made in the midst of much preaching and many other businesses having been destitute also of some advantages and helps which at another time I might have had Thy good acceptance of it thy profiting by it and thy earnest prayers to God for me will encourage me to goe on in further writing to which I have so deeply engaged my selfe in this Book and God sparing me life and health I have taken up a fixed resolution never to give over writing till this Church be setled and these great schismes amongst us healed But if it should so happen that this Antapologia should profit nothing at all many Christians whom I intend it most unto yet I question not but it will profit some even as Augustine in his Epistle to Vincentius writes even them who have a care to reade it with the feare of God and without respect of persons Now the God of truth and peace reveale abundance of truth and peace and give us truth and peace always by all meanes He fulfill that promise in Ieremie to his people in this Kingdome to give them one heart and one way to feare him for the good of them and their children after them And so commending thee deare Christian to God and the word of his grace and this work of mine to his blessing I conclude this Epistle as Beza doth his to Duditius Farewell The Lord keep thee and all thine from all evill and especially from nooneday Devils which walke about in this place and in these times that is from the errors of Anabaptisme Brownisme Antinomianisme Toleration of Sects and schismes under pretence of libertie of conscience Amen Yours in Christ Tho. Edwards Errata Page 1. Marg for Mat. 1. reade Mat. 1â⦠p. 12. l 6. adde and. p. 14. l. 22. for had r. have p. 36. l. ââ¦0 Tor wa r. is p. 41. l 15. for nor r. not p. 42. l. 29. for Pareusâ⦠r. Pareushesessâ⦠p. 43. l. 1â⦠for satisfie r. satisfied p. 44 l. 24. for conceive r. conceived p. 46. l. 19. at the full point 6. following linâ⦠though they be printed of the same character which the words of the Letter are yet they be the words of the Author of this Answer p. 47. l. 6. for remaine t remââ¦e p. 53. l. 14. adde after relâ⦠short p. 57. l. 28. but must be transposed after there and dele the p. 64. l. ââ¦1 r. for which though comming it be which committed though it be p. 6â⦠l. 15. ãâã censures adde the. p. 85. l. 15. for libââ¦tles r. Libertines p. 8â⦠l. 30. for marks r. rules p. 94. l. 26. after others adde to all the Ordinances p. 101. l. 17. r. for leave to follow leave follovving the. p. 107. l. 9. r. for conceiving receiving p 124. l. ãâã for to r. of l 9. for reall r. evill p. 134. l. 16. for Offices upon mistaken partialitiâ⦠r. offences upon mistakes and partialitie p. 1ââ¦5 l. 2. r for iudge it iudged p. 153. l. ââ¦4 for each r. the p. 154. l. 12. addd after be as p. 156. l. 2. at thus must be a full point and all the semicircles in this page must be put out p. 217. l. ââ¦7 for state parsââ¦te r. state part p. 28â⦠l. 28 for pleasâ⦠r. partakerâ⦠p. 305. for sâ⦠r. ãâã p. ââ¦71 l. ãâã adde for before ãâã full p. 285. l. 27. for diametrally r. diametrically p. 294. l. 2. for witnesses r witnessed p. 295. l. ãâã ââ¦adde after according to p. 2ââ¦6 l. 13. for should r. could p. 297. l. 36. for beate r. breake ANTAPOLOGIA OR A full Answer to a Booke Entituled An Apologeticall Narration c. AS the Assertors of truth through the subtilty and malice of Satan and his instruments causing prejudices and mistakes in the minds
I faine nothing nor wittingly mis-report any thing no not in the least circumstance neither have I taken up reports lightly but what ever I affirme or assert in this Answer I either had it from their own mouthes or can shew it in their own letters or in other manuscripts or in some printed books of men of their way and communion or else have received it from credible persons many of them eare witnesses and eye-witnesses upon the places All which witnesses are either learned godly judicious Ministers or else godly Christians some their friends and familiars who have beene amongst them and converst with them both in Holland and England And I appeale to many of my Reverend Brethren in the Ministery and to many godly Christians and to the consciences of the Authours of this Apologie upon second thoughts and to their own followers and Church-members whether all along I speake not the truth Our eares have been of late so filled with a sudden unexpected noise of confused Exclamations though not so expressely directed against us in particular yet in the interpretation of the most reflecting on us that awakened thereby we are enforced to anticipate a little that discovery of our selves which otherwise we resolv'd to have left to time and experience of our wayes and spirits the truest discoverers and surest judges of all men and their actions You make the ground and occasion of setting forth this Apologeticall Narration now to be your eares of late so filled with a sudden and unexpected noise of confused exclamations interpretatively reflecting on you It will hardly be believed by wise men that such men as you should make such an Apologie and that in such a juncture of time the Assembly sitting and being upon Discipline and you members of it upon so weake and sleight grounds as a sudden and unexpected noise of confused exclamations comming to your eares which as they are soone raised so are they as soon gone and often die of themselves and by wise men nothing more slighted especially being sudden and confused If other of your brethren who swimme not with the streame of the times and are not the darlings of the people should upon every occasion of their eares fild with a sudden and unexpected noise of confused exclamations even when they are expressely directed against them and not only in interpretation reflecting on them write Apologies and make defences they should judge they had little to doe and might have filled City and Countrey with Apologies before now There are who will not be perswaded but are induced rather to think there were other motives and grounds of your writing that Apologie at that time and the rather because there have been heretofore such noises of confused exclamations at least interpretatively reflecting on you and you pass'd them by Shall I tell you what is judg'd to have rather enforced you unto this worke Many of the Ministers in the City not long before drew up a letter to the Assembly concerning some Church grievances and in particular that of gathering of Churches and drawing away their people which letter as it was not directed in particular against you so it reflected in the words and sense upon many others rather then your selves which letter how it was accepted of by the Assembly and what speeches and motions were upon it how to remedy and prevent the evills represented and especially that of gathering Churches you better know then I. But soon after some considerations were put forth by many members of the Assembly to disswade from gathering Churches to which considerations your hands were subscribed Upon what reasons you complied in that and whether you could not well avoide it without greater prejudice to your cause you know best And now whether this Apologeticall Narration was not first hastned to follow upon these considerations to counter-ballance that act of yours against further gathering of Churches that your cause and way might receive no losse and prejudice and to satisfie your own party many of them greatly exclaiming against you for your hands to those considerations and so thinking by this after game to recover all I leave to the reader to judge 2. Whether also you well knowing that the Assembly was upon the borders of the maine points in difference and upon comming to debate Presbytery Ordination Excommunication you put not forth this book to tast and try the spirits of the Assembly and others before hand 3. Whether also this was not intended to pre-possesse the peoples minds to lay in prejudice against what the Assembly might determine and by discovering your selves so before hand and so publikely ingaging your selves your party might appeare and stand the more by you and with you for a toleration the great designe of the men of this way in these times 4. Lastly Whether as much as you durst this Apologie was not set out just upon the comming-in of our brethren of Scotland to our helpe to asperse the Governement and Reformation of the Church of Scotland and to lessen the esteeme of that Kingdome and Church so much and so deservedly valued by this Kingdome but looked upon by all the men of the new Church way as the great let of their Independent government These reasons with some other may well be thought to be the ground of your Apologie but that alledged by you the sudden and unexpected noyse of confused exclamations seemes so farre from a Reason that upon good grounds is doubted whether it can be true that a noyse of confused exclamations reflecting on you and your wayes could be sudden and unexpected to you 'T is strange to me that exclamations should be to you at that time unexpected that a few men going in a new by way different from all the Reformed Churches of Christendome and that with so high a hand as you and your party have done should not expect speaking against and to have their eares filled with outcryes and exclamations not only confused and interpretative but distinct particular and personall Now as the pretended ground of making this Apologie is taken from you so what you affirme in the following words that you were awakened thereby is denied for you have never been asleepe since your comming over into England but have been alwayes watchfull and intent to the uttermost upon all things which might either further your way or might hinder it 't is we who need something to awaken us as having been too much asleepe in respect of you for whilst the husbandmen have slept you have both sowed tares and reaped a harvest But I am in hope that your Apologeticall Narration and this Antapologia together will awaken both Parliament Ministers and people more and more and open mens eyes to judge of things aright between you and us As for the being enforced to anticipate a little that discovery of your selves which otherwise you resolved to have left to time and experience of your wayes and spirits It appeares manifestly
upon our persons in our absence began by our presence againe and the blessing of God upon us in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for our selves or cause And if at your first appearing so many of those mists and in so great a measure were vanisht then surely by that time your writ this Apologie all might have been vanisht and scattered But let me aske you Whose mis-apprehensions doe you understand you lay under that you present this Apologie to the Parliament and appeale to them Doe you meane you have laine under the darke cloud of the manifold mis-apprehensions of the Parliament ãâã or of the people of the Kingdome Certainely not under the darke cloud of the mis-apprehensions of the Parliament They are too great and wise a Body to be guilty of manifold misapprehensions of you Besides what Ministers have had the sunne of their favour shining upon them more then your selves You all have been made Members of the Assembly by them called to preach before them upon their publike solemne occasions and some of you employed in extraordinary services But if you understand the mis-apprehensions of the body of the people why doe you present this Apologie to the Parliament what would you have them doe for you or how shall they free you from the darke cloud of manifold misapprehensions I suppose you doe not expect that the Houses should set forth a Declaration to cleere you five neither make an Ordinance that whosoever mis-apprehends you and your wayes shall be reputed ill affected to the publike though M. S. your new great friend sets the brand of malignancie on them who are against you Why doe you then appeale to them in respect of the misapprehensions of the people or trouble them with so triviall a matter Doe you not know the people will mis-apprehend persons and opinions though plainely and fully laid downe which yours never yet were And indeed for any cloud of manifold mis-apprehensions you have hitherto laine under you may thanke your selves and never appeale to the Parliament to be a refuge and Asylum for your mistaken and mis-judged innocence whenas according to your owne confessions in this Apologie going in a new and different way from all the Reformed Churches you have never yet declared what you hold and what not neither have answered the Bookes written against your way but have reserved your selves And yet whereas you pretend a cloud of manifold mis-apprehensions as the ground in this way first to present your selves and to appeale to the Parliament And 't is a usuall phrase in the mouthes of your party to put off arguments with that you are mistaken I know not for mine own part and some others of my bretheren wherein any of you have been mis-apprehended by us but we have so farre judged of you as to goe by no other rules but your known practises and your letters and other manuscripts given and sent out to your followers and from what some who are of your own Churches and your familiar friends have held out and pleaded for as your Principles together with what we find in the printed Treatises of them of New-England the New-England way being generally taken to be your way and I heard Mr Bridge since this Parliament openly affirme it for himselfe and others we agree with them of New-England and are of their Church-way And Mr Burroughs hath said so too As for the first presenting your selves to the Supreame judicatory of this Kingdome had it not been for the reasons given you above I should not have spoken against it but seeing you have appeal'd unto them unto them ye shall goe ãâã unto the Parliament as the most just and severe tribunall for guiltinesse and withall the most sacred Refuge and Asylum for innocence I appeale too humbly desiring them if their great affaires can spare any time to read this Antapologie with the Reasons I above two yeareâ⦠since presented to the House of Commons against your Helena of Independencie and your Diana of toleration Meane time I cannot but stand and wonder that you knowing and acknowledging the Houses to be the Supreame Judicatory of the Kingdome c. how you had the face to presenâ⦠an appeale to them in things untrue wherein many people can point to and say passages in the 25 and 26 pages are not so I heard saith one at such a Church one of the five preach of their Church-way and I heard saith another another of them at such a Church preach the like But why doe I wonder when it will appeare in the following discourse you have so much in your own cause at this time lost your selves and forgot your principles as that ye doe ascribe to the grace of God and call God to witnesse your constant forbearance of publishing your opinions by preaching c. which how untrue 't is I shall evince when I come to the 25 and 26 pages or else let me suffer And thus much for the occasion or Preface of this Apologeticall Narration The most if not all of us had ten yeares since some more some lesse severall setled stations in the Ministery in places of publike use in the Church not unknown to many of your selves but the sinfull evill of those corruptions in the publike worship and government of this Church which all doe now so generally acknowledge and decrie tooke hold upon our consciences long before some others of our brethren And then how impossible it was to continue in those times our service and standings all mens apprehensions will readily acquit us Here begins the Narration wherein we may consider the Matter of it and the Manner and way of the carriage and contrivance of it The Matter consists partly of Fact and Practise And partly of Opinions and Tenents both which all along in their Narration are interwoven within each other Their opinions and Tenents in their practises and their practises in their opinions The matter of the Narration consists of three maine parts First of their Opinion and fact before their Exile The second of their Opinions and Practises in their Exile The third of their carriage and behaviour since their returne into England from their first comming over to the time of putting forth this Apologie The Manner of carrying it all along is clothing the Narration in such words phrases and in such a way though the Church principles are laid downe and maintained in it as to make the Parliament and Kingdome believe they differ little or nothing from the Reformed Churches and from our Church now And in the things wherein there is some difference of which they give but three instances though the differences be many and so great in their account as to constitute new Churches and to forsake communion upon them yet they render them so to the Parliament and Reader as if the Reformed Churches in the differences between them could not but allow their way and practises though there
new Church-way as that he would not be married by Ministers but deferred marriage till he came into Holland where presently after his comming he was married not in the way of the Reformed Churches there but by the Magistrates according to the way of the Brownists as it is laid down in Robinsons Apologie 5. I aske What some of you whose Names are to this Apologie with other Ministers of your way who are now with God with some Gentlemen did at Missendon in Buckingham-shiere the winter and spring before you went into Holland and whether that company which went over with you into Holland were not engaged in the Church-way and principles before you left England And I aske how long it was when once you came to Viana where you setled for a time before you practised your Church-way Whether you tooke any long time of searching-out what were the first Apostolique directions before you fell to the practise of it I deny not but you might adde somethings to your Church-way after your comming over and had you stayed there till this time you had added with a witnesse of which I shall speake more afterwards 6. If Mr Bridge carried not the positive part over with him I aske whether upon the change of the ayre presently after his comming over without any great time of searching out what were the first Apostoilque directions he were not admitted a member in the Church-way and then chosen one of the Ministers of that Church at Rotterdam And whether Mr Burroughs flying over for words spoken was not quickly admitted into the Church at Rotterdam So that if these instances be true here was no great time of enquiring and viewing after Exile before you fell to practise nor no great time allotted to search out what were the first Apostolique directions patterne and examples of those Primitive Churches recorded in the New-Testament And to put it past question that you were resolved of your Chuââ¦-way before you left England at least Mr Goodwin and Mr Nye I have a Letter by me under Mr Archers hand the Pastour of their Church dated Septemb. 12 1637. which was about six weekes after landing for in another Letter from him to me he writes I landed Iuly 27. wherein he writes thus in way of an answer to a passage in a Letter of mine dated August 23. concerning his being in the Church-way As for your judgement and the worke you are about I heard of it before and have not so long stood by afflicted soberly and conscientiously ta search out the truth but have throughly seene into the bottome of it in such a measure as I am confident that in the end you will all come to us and not we to you And in the same Letter he speakes of all with him to be of the same judgement which fully shewes their engagement before they came to Holland But as to that Dilemma whether before your going into Holland or whether afterwards you fell upon the positive part of Church-worship and Government it matters not much in reference to that which followes upon it for even that which is granted by you without any question namely your stumbling at the Ceremonies and thereupon chusing Exile to avoide the possible hazard of personall violence and persecution which put you upon necessity of enquiring into the light part hath much in it of selfe to byas and to draw you to that way of Worship and Government in which you are in that so you might be provided for well and comfortably in your Exile with company and maintenance which only could be in these principles of your Church-way for according to the non-conformists-principles you could not have drawne any over nor set up your Church-way and I should in reason have thought that had you been free and not cast upon this necessity by chusing Exile as my selfe and others were in the studying of these points though in as much danger from the Prelaticall faction as your-selves you might more impartially and without preingagement have seen the truth for it is too often seen that necessity is ingens telum and drawes aside often the judgement and practises of good and wise men and so might doe yours And therefore you must pardon me if I question whether in your enquiry into the first Apostolique directions you lookt upon the word of Christ as impartially and unprejudicedly as men made of flesh and blood are like to doe in any juncture of time that may fall out I judge the Reformers in the Reformed Churches of Geneva Scotland c. upon many reasons some whereof are hinted by the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland were like to looke more impartially and without prejudice upon the word of Christ then you they were not forced to fall on their Church-government by a necessity of Exile but having learned it from the word some of them suffered Exile for it and others resolved to hazard the utmost for it not upon every feare and imagination forsaking their people and countrey but resolving to doe the will of God and to promote his cause in their own countrey what ever it cost them And besides the first Reformers I beleeve there be many in these times who studying these points have looked more impartially upon Church-government and discipline and been freer from engagements and worldly respects then your selves and when I weigh the Reasons intimated of your impartiality and free guidance by the Spirit I am no way satisfied but they serve all to afford temptations to byas you that way you are in As 1. For the Company you went forth with both men and women were principled and ingaged in the Church-way and the company some of you went to being in the open practise of it And 2. As for the Places you went to namely Holland that gives liberty of conscience and toleration to sundry Sects which is an invitation to errours So that you had certainty of enjoying your way there 3. As for the Condition you were in which is before specified so besides one of you was not willing for some reasons he knowes best to live wholly upon his wives meanes and so needed a Church to allow him maintenance Another being in debt A third forced to fly for feare of severe punishment for words spoken left you not as freely to be guided by that light and touch Gods Spirit should by the word vouch safe your consciences as the Needle toucht with the Loadstone is in the Compasse So that if these circumstances be well considered with some others of the like nature the doore of hopes being shut up here of your publike Ministery and the meanes of livelihood to most of you and without holding and maintaining these principles there being no way of having Churches whether it is not more probable you being men made of flesh and blood as that you confesse your selves and having hearts deceitfull as well as other men may be partiall in this relation of your selves
and the temptations of company place condition draw you strongly though you thought it not But before I passe to other Reasons exprest by you in this page I cannot passe over the high and great words of your selves namely In this enquiry we lookt upon the word of Christ as impartially and unprejudicedly as men made of flesh and blood are like to doe in any juncture of time that may fall out the places we went to the condition we were in the company we went forth with affording no temptation to by as us any way but leaving us as freely to be guided by that light and touch Gods Spirit should by the word vouchsafe our consciences as the Needle toucht with the Loadstone is in the compasse Brethren it had been more humility and modesty to have suspected your selves and to have prefer'd in honour others before your selves and it had been more agreeable to the counsell of the Holy Ghost not to have thus extold your selves Who are you And what are you that you should affirme all this of your selves The Apostles St Paul Peter Iames and Iohn would not have spoken these words of themselves and indeed some of the words doe more suite the condition of Angells and the spirits of just men made perfect then men on earth subject to like passions as other men What! your condition c. afford no temptation to by at you any way but leaving you so freely c. 'T is such a piece of selfe-flattery and pride that hardly the Popes-parasites have in the sense of these words exceeded The great lights of the Church in the first Reformation Luther Calvin Knox c. would have blusht to have had these lines affirmed of them much more to have been spoken by themselves but how meanely soever you may think of the Reformers before you in comparison of your selves as some passages in your Apologie imply yet how know you who may come after you to excell you as much in light as you judge you doe the Reformers that went before you that you speake of the time that may fall out and is yet to come can you foresee what men are like to doe in aftertimes As for that expresse reason You had of all men the greatest reason to be true to your own consciences in what you should imbrace seeing it was for your consciences that you were deprived at once of what ever was deare to you In which passage you intimate your great sufferings above other men as if you above others had the greatest reason to be true to your consciences they not suffering like you I must tell you I know some men that for God and his truth suffered more in England then all you five and all your Churches put together did in Holland who yet were against your Church-way And for this reason there is little strength or truth in it and the former part of it is as likely to be true as the latter Let me sadly put the question to you How dare you affirme that for your consciences you were deprived at once of what ever was deare to you I Were not your wives children estates friends and lives deare to you Had you not all these with you ãâã and did you not in the Netherlands live in the best places in much plenty ease and pompe But what great deprivation at once is this of what ever is deare for men to take their own times and to goe in Summer time with Knights Ladyes and Gentlewomen with all necessaries into Holland and there to take choice of all the Land where to reside and with wives children in the midst of friends and acquaintance free from the feares and possibilities of vexations of the Spirituall Courts and Prisons to injoy all plenty and freedome as you did There are many would have been glad and still would be of such a deprivation at once as to be so Exiled into Holland to be able to spend two or three hundred pounds per annum there And I must here mind one of you in whose Name this reason is brought that this cannot be affirmed of him that for his conscience he was deprived at once of what ever was deare to him seeing he fled into Holland for words about State matters As for those other Reasons following You had no now Common-wealths to neare to frame Church-government unto you had no State ends or poloticall interests to comply with no Kingdomâ⦠in your eye to subdue unto your mould no preferment or worldly respects to shape your opinions for Suppose all this to be true which you say which yet I for my part upon good reasons doubt what will you build upon it What followes that therefore you must alone be in the right for Church-government 't is denied it no way followes for many of the poore Anabaptists and Brownists had no new Common-wealths to reare not so many State ends and politicall interests to comply with as you as upon good reason and the experience of you here all men will grant and yet you confesse the Anabaptists and rigid Brownists are out of the way And besides had not many of the first Reformers as the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland well observe as few Common-wealths to reare as few State-ends or policicall interests to comply with as you Nay are not some of you greater States-men and polititians and looke more to preferment and worldly respects then ever they did And are there not amongst us in these times men differing from your Church-way that eye Common-wealths State-ends and politicall interests as little as you doe why then is all this brought in by you quorsum haec to what end is all this with the preceding passage but to insinuate with the people as if you alone were the men that lookt so impartially and ââ¦prejudicedly on the word as if you alone had no State-ends nor politicall interests noâ⦠ãâã preferments in your eye and therefore in searching into the word have found out the right way but other men not having suffered as you and having State-ends and worldly preferments to looke to c. they are out of the way But as I said I doubt concerning all these grounds given by you You had new Common-wealths to reare to frame Church-goverment unto when you first fell to these principles namely the new Common-wealth of New-England to frame your Church-government unto where some of you were first bound in your thoughts and purposes as you well know and I shall make more evident in a following page And therefore the Church-government there might stand in your light when you first enquired into the Church-way and might cause some variation by you from the Primitive patterne namely to looke too much to that where you thought to have Ministery and Subsistence You had also some ends and interests and worldly respects to comply with in your going into Holland rather then New-England which you first intended and these may fitly be termed
State-ends and politicall interests namely ââ¦at when some great persons Lords and others should be forced through the badnesse of the times as was expected and feared to seek for shelter in Providence and Hispaniââ¦la you might be there ready to remoove with them and be taken along into those Countreyes where you hoped to set up new Churches and subdue those Countreyes and people which should come over into your mould Or if otherwise things in England should come to have a great turne as they had by this Parliament then also by being in Holland rather then New-England you were nigh hand and your estates more at command quickly to returne to England having this Kingdome in your eye hoping you might either subdue England into the way of your Church-goverââ¦ent or else gaine a great party to you ãâã the Kingdome which we see is unhappily fallen out And ãâã all the State-ends and interests to come which you might loââ¦ke upon in your remooving to Holland there were worldly rââ¦spects and interests for the present to make you goe in the Churââ¦-way as I have before observed And to all these whereas yoâ⦠make the having no new-Common-wealths no Kingdomes to eye to frame Church-government unto as the ground of falling upon the right way Let it be considered by you and the Reader that the framing of a Church-government according to the conjunction of a few godly persons either in a Plantation or as strangers in a Common-wealth and not considering of a Church-government for Nations and Kingdomes that when Kingdomes and Nations doe receive the faith and the Magistrates are Christians and Orthodox that there must be a Church-government as for a Nation and Kingdome is that very thing that deceives you there being alia ratio urbis ac orbis and so a great difference of governing a family two or three or of a Towne and of governing a Nation and Kingdome But as for that Parenthesis you make before you end this Section That your Governement will bâ⦠coexistent with the peace of any forme of Civill Governmeâ⦠on earth out of the great care you have least your Church-gââ¦nment should suffer in the thoughts of many that it is not consistent with the peace of Civill-government 't is so farre from truth that your Government and Church-way cannot stand with the peace of any forme of Civill government no not with Democraticall government much lesse Aristocraticall or Monarchicall but should it be but tolerated much more established as the government in a Kingdome and Nation we should quickly find the contrary with a witnesse In this Intervall of Church-government we feele without a formall toleration of it woefull effects opposite to the peace and good of civill government And I desire to know from you how you will proove it and we shall be assured of it for we dare not take your bare word seeing that never yet any Kingdome or Nation entertained your Church-way and government there being yet no experiment of it which of the Presbyteriall goverment hath been in Kingdomes and Common-wealths this fourescore yeares And I must tell you that in New-England which yet was farre from being a Kingdome and Nation when they began to multiply and encrease this government had like to have ruined them both in Church and Common-wealth and had they not enterposed and since doe daily the power of the Magistrate and many suitable principles to the Presbyteriall way they had been ruined before this and what yet will be the issue unlesse they fall off more and more from their Independency a little time will shew and there are Letters from thence complaining of the confusions of necessity depending on that government We were not engaged by Education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches And although we consulted with reverence what they hold forth both in their writings and practisâ⦠yet we could not but suppose that they might not see into all things about worship and Government their intentions being most spent as also of our first Reformers in England upon the Reformation in Doctrine in which they had a most happy hand And ãâã had with many others observed that although the exercise of that Government had been accompanied with more peace yet the practicall part the power of godlinesse and the profession thereof with difference from carnall and formall Christians had not beeâ⦠advanced and held forth among them as in this our Island as themselves have generally acknowledged We had the advantage of all that light which the conflicts of our own Divines the good old Non-conformists had struck forth in their times And the draughts of Discipline which they had drawn which we found not in all things the very same with the practises of the Reformed Churches And ââ¦hat they had written came much more commended to us not only because they were our own but because sealed with their manifold and bitter sufferings We had likewise the fatââ¦ll miscarriages and ship-wracks of the Separation whom ye call Brownists as Land-marks to forewarne us of thââ¦se rocks and shelves they ran upon which also did put us upon an inquirie into the principles that might be the causes of their divisions Last of all We had the recent and later example of the wayes and practises and those improved to a better Edition and greater refinement by all the fore-mentioned helps of those multitudes of godly men of our own Nation almost to the number of another Nation and among them some as holy and judicioâ⦠Divines as this Kingdome hath bred whose sincerity in theâ⦠way hath been testified before all the world and will be to all generations to come by the greatest undertaking but that of our father Abraham out of his own Countrey and his sââ¦ed after him a transplanting themselves many thousand miles distance and and that by sea into a wildernesse meerely to worship God more purely whither to allure them there could be no other invitement And yet we still stood as vnengaged spectators free to examine and consider what truth is to be found in and amongst all these all which we looke upon as Reformed Churches and this nakedly according to the word We resolved not to take up our Religion by or from any party and yet to approve and hold fast whatsoever is good in any though never so much differing from us yea orposite unto us It may be if you had been engaged by Education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches that you had seen the order and peace in some of the Reformed Churches and had you conversed with them before you drunke in these opinions you had never been transported with them in opposition to so many most worthy Churches but to what end is this brought in with all those particulars newly mentioned in the foregoing page We had we had with that passage in the close of the last Section We had nothing else to doe but simply and singly to consider how to
worship God acceptably and so most according to his word unlesse to insinââ¦ate and to cast an aspersion upon all others they had so and so and they were engaged by Education and otherwise a fine Rââ¦hetoricall way of casting blemishes upon all others and freeing your selves as much as in plaine English to say That State-ends politicall interests preferments and worldly respects ingagements by Education and such like with the streame of publike interest might beare all others down that they should not find out the truth but you alas good men so fââ¦e from having any thing to doe in this world or regarding worldly preferments or hanging upon great persons that you must needs find out the truth But as you would bring Education in and conversing with the Reformed Churches as the by as to draw many to the Presbyteriall way So let me tell you though you were noâ⦠engaged any way to the Reformed Churches of Europe yet you were many wayes to the Reformed Churches of New-England and to some prime mââ¦n in New-England by a high admiration of them One of you more especially was so eââ¦aged in his high thoughts of one of the Ministers of New-England by whom also I am sure he was first taken off the darke part that he hath said there was not such another man in the world againe Which Minister after his going into New-England and falling into the Church-way there and sending over Letters into England about the New-way presently after these Letters began the falling off and questioning Communion in our Churches and before these Letters were sent into England and the coppies of them communicated to divers I never by discourse with any of you nor from others heard that you were fallen into the Church-way As for your consulting with reverence what the Reformed Churches held forth both in their writings and practice that could be no long time as appeares by what I have before prooved and besides the short time you tooke to consult of Church-government and worship after your landing in Holland there are many passages in this Apologie shew no great reverence towards them and if a man should guesse of your reverence to the Churches of Scotland and France by many of your way both Ministers and people what they speake of Presbyteriall government and of those Churches he would conclude it were very little But these good words of the Reformed Churches are to make way for a back-blow to those Churches and to get some advantage still to your own way namely that you could not but suppose that they might not see into all things about worship and government their intentions being most spent upon the Reformation in Doctrine c. And why may not I suppose the same thing of Mr Goodwin Mr Nye and the rest of you that you may not see into all things about worship and government for if they might not then much more not you they excelling you in piety learning sufferings yeares But suppose the Reformed Churches at first might not yet considering that it is now above fourescore yeares since government and worship was purged as well as Reformation in Doctrine which you say was so well setled at first and since so many questions and controversies having risen about Worship and Government in their Churches and ours as about Morelius and about the Anabaptists and Brownists and of late the Independents and these differences having been debated in Synods and Assemblies having heard and seen all they could say against Presbyteriall government and what could be said for themselves if either they or you had the truth on your sides what reason can you give why they should not see into it upon so much enquity study and dispute the Reformed Churches being more free to entertaine truths and change somewhat in their Discipline then you were in your first entertaining this New-way For example The Churches of France living under persecution for their Religion and the truth of God if your way had any truth in it it were all one for matter of persecution to receive yours as their own As to that passage in this Section concerning the good old non-conformists that you say We had the advantage of all that light which their conflicts struck forth in their times c I answer a great part of their light as in Mr Cartwright Mr Hildersham c. was against the Separatists and their practises as their writings testifie as well as against the Diocesan Bishops and Ceremonies and it had been happy for you and this Kingdome that you had made better use of their light and of their draughts of Discipline the Reformation had been more easie and the godly party more united and the common enemy had never conceived such hopes and taken such heart as he does from your opinions And what ever you say it seemes that a great part of what the good old non-conformists writ came not much commended to you though your own and for all their sufferings because you follow it no better As to that passage about the Separation following the passage of the Non-conformists It is well you acknowledge that the Separation had fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks in their way and it was well you tooke such notice of them that you counted them as Land-markes to fore warââ¦e you of those rocks and shelves they ran upon and that thereupon you did enquire into the principles that might be the causes of their divisions this is one of the best passages in your book As there are foure passages among so many bad that are good and usefull One of the Parliament A second of the Assembly of Divines The third this of the Separatists The fourth a Description of many of the Proââ¦torus and people of this Kingdome But it had been better you had made so good a use of this observation and enquirie in Gods visibly witnessing from Heaven against the Separation in giving them up to fearfull sins in inflicting fearfull judgements and leaving them to strange divisions which your selves allude to in this passage and you know was in the stories of Browne Bolton Barrow Smith Iohnsons c. so as to have kept further from their principles and thereupon to have feared forsaking communion with our Churches and setting up Separated Assemblies and agreeing so much with them in most of the fundamentall and essentiall principles and practises and not to have come so nigh to them against whom God witnessed by so many fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks as only to resine and qualifie Brownisme and to spinne it of a finer thred then the old Separatists did But let me here put this Dilemma to you Seeing the Separatists fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks did put you upon an enquiry into the principles and causes of their divisions upon the enquiry either you found out and discovered those principles or you did not If you did not discover them why doe you insert these words here and carry it so to make the Reader
beleeve as if you had and that you declined the rocks and shelves they ran upon But if you did discover those principles of the Brownists which were the causes of their divisions why doe you passe them over in silence In this Apologeticall Narration you make many a parenthesis and addition to what you are speaking of nothing so materiall nor proper to the points in hand for example In that passage immediately following these words you lanch out into the high praises of New-England in many lines as the laying downe those principles which are the causes of the Brownists divisions would have been So that I much wonder if you found them out that you past them over in silence for these might have been of great use to the Separatists themselves for the time to come and of great use to have preserved others from Brownisme who are inclining that way besides the benefit to your own party by looking upon them to prevent the like fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks in their way so that I know not how this omission of yours can be excused Besides how came it to passe that you who are the Authours of this Apologie and your Churches made no better an use of all your enquiry and discovery but in the time you were abroad to fall into the same fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks namely the same divisions and sins nay greater and worse then some of the Separatists Churches did as ever I heard For proofe whereof I have been informed both by word of mouth and Letters from good hands of these following particulars In Holland there were but two Churches of your way and communion one of which was at Rotterdam where Mr Bridge and Mr Sympson were members and afterwards Mr Burroughs which Church of Rotterdam like the old Separatists at Amsterdam split into two Mr Sympson at first and some others after him renting themselves from Mr Bridges Church to the great offence thereof Mr Sympson setting up a new-new-Church Mr White the Merchant and his wife only at first joyning with him Mr Sympsons Church being founded by a woman Mr Bridge himselfe heretofore telling me so and calling Mrs White the Foundresse of that Church And after this great rent and setting up a Church against a Church under Mr Bridges nose Mr Ward Mr Bridges colleague and old friend at Norwich was deposed from his Ministery and office for frivolous matters and some differences by Mr Bridges Church And here if I should but relate all the maine passages that fell out between these Ministers and their Churches after this Renting and Deposition within the space of a yeare following namely the Letters sent into England each for themselves and against each other all the stories told of one another and all the bitternesses and revilings between the Churches of Mr Bridge and Mr Sympsons with the desperate scandalls and reproaches cast out especially upon Mr Bridge the Readers eares would tingle and I should be too long especially because I must touch upon this string againe when I come to that story related in the Apologie page 16. The other Church was first at Viana then at Arnhim of which Mr Goodwin and Mr Nye were Teachers concerning which Church if I should but relate all the strange conceits and opinions held and practised in that Church besides some preach't even before Mr Goodwins and Mr Nye's comming back to England with all the differences and divisions that fell out I should make this answer too large I will for the present relate these few passages reserving the rest till I put out aâ⦠Rejoinder upon their Reply to this Answer Anointing the sick with oyle was held in that Church of Arnhim as a standing ordinance for Church members for others had no right to that ordinance as laying on of hands was a standing ordinance for Church Officers There was a writing amongst them in many hands prooving it to be so and there were some cases propounded with what oyle the sicke members of the Church were to be anointed and there was a resolution of the case namely with Olive oyle A copy of this writing some Ministers of the Assembly have perused and one of them hath it amongst his papers in the Countrey Mr Goodwin did anoint a Gentlewoman whose name I conceale when she was sick and she recovered after it they say A Gentleman of note in that Church one of those two so much commended in the twentieth page of this book for wisedome and piety did propound in the Church that singing of Hymnes was an ordinance which is that any person of the Congregation exercising their own gifts should bring aâ⦠Hymne and sing it in the Congregation all the rest being silent and giving audience now upon the propounding of this another Gentleman did oppose it as not judging it an ordinance to whom the former Gentleman replied that he destroyed in opposing this what he had built up whereupon words passing between them a difference grew between these two Gentlemen and this second Gentleman was complained of to the Church by the first and upon hearing the whole businesse and all words that past between them this second Gentleman was censured by the Church and Mr Nye charged sin upon him that was the phrase in many particulars and still at the end of every charge Mr Nye repeated This wis your sin After this censure so solemnly done the Gentleman censured brings in Accusations against Mr Nye in severall Artiles charging him with pride want of charity c in the manner of the censure And this being brought before the Church continued in debate about halfe a yeare three or foure dayes in a weeke and sometimes more before all the Congregation divers of the members having callings to follow they desired to have leave to be absent Mr Goodwin ofâ⦠profest publikely upon these differences if this were their Church-fellowship he would lay downe his Eldership and nothing was more commonly spoke among the members then that certainely for matter of Discipline they were not in the right way for that there was no way of bringing things to an end At last after more then halfe a yeares debate not being able to bring these differences to an end and being to come into England they had their last meeting about it to agree not to publish it abroad when they came into England hoping that God would give some opportunity when they came into England to make an end of it which whether it be ended yet I doubt much because of some speeches reported to me spoken by one of these persons concerning the other two Now if this Church of Arnhim consisting of Ministers moderate and wise standing upon their credits and reputations and of prime Gentlemen and pick't Christians being in exile and leaving all for their consciences as they say doe yet run into such strange conceits and breake among themselves thus what can be expected of Independent Churches here that may consist of raw and fiery
spirited men and of the vulgar and all kind of spirits But before I leave this passage of yours concerning the Separation pray let me aske you the reason of this Parenthesis and to whom you speake it whom ye call Brownists and why could you not have writ who are commmonly called Brownists Is it not to both the Houses of Parliament to whom this Apologie is presented and to whom you appeale your discourse being carried as spoken to them and does not this phrase of speech carry with it a secret checke of the Houses for calling the Separatists Brownists calling them so as you would not call them But who are you that you may not speake for so much as concernes this in the language of both Houses if both Houses call them Brownists Why may not you Five terme them so but we may guesse the Reason Mr Browne and your Principles are too nigh a kinde and you feared lest you might be called so but let me tell you though the Reformed Churches may not be called disgracefully Calvinians as the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland have well observed in their late book yet the Separatists and all Sectaries may fitly be termed from the Authours and so the Separatists justly called Brownists because as he was one of the first Leaders in that way so he was the first that digested that way into forme and method and writ so for it and the first that visibly and openly drew so many out of this Kingdome beyond the Seas and therefore both Houses of Parliament and others too may truly terme those who goe in Brownes-way Brownists As for that last passage in this Section that last of all We had the recent and laââ¦er example of the wayes and practises of those multitudes of godly men of our own Nation c. which without so many words you might have said New-England but that on purpose you would take an occasion of extolling them to the Heavens and so render both your selves and way in them more glorious both to the Parliament and people into whose hands your Apologie should come Sure you might more truly and ingeniously have put them in the first place and have writ First of all We had the recent and later example of New-England which wrought to my knowledge with some of you very much and that the purposes and intentions of some of you were first for New-England as you may remember some of you told me One of you marrying a wife in reference to your going to New-England and how farre he was hindered or altered by her death he knowes Another of you having sent over goods before and in particular books where he meant to follow after I have a very bad memory if these things be not so A third namely Mr Simpson when he desired his dismission from that Church at Rotterdam he alleadged that as a cause that he was intended for New-England but I must examine the Encomium made by you here of New-England and see whether to make it hold the words must not have the allowance of that figure in Rhetorick called Hyperbole the first part of the praise is Multitudes of godly men of our own Nation almost to the number of another Nation Are the godly men in New-England so many in number that they are almost the number of another Nation that they doe almost make such another Nation as England then New-England hath more godly persons in it then old England for the multitudes of godly persons amongst us are not almost so many here as to make another Nation but it will be found that granting all the men in New-England were godly which yet you dare not affirme seeing multitudes live there without the Church who are not accounted visible Saints yet what are they to so many people as are in England reckon up all the persons in New-England good and bad and list them and they will be found not to come almost to the number of the Nation that lives in London nay hardly to come to the twentieth part there What are they then in New-England to this whole Kingdome and then doe but substract all that are not of their Church and it is evident your affection is better to New-England then your Arithmeticke and in this particular that Proverbe of Almost must help you But shall I give you the reason of this stretching here 'T is to possesse the Parliament and Kingdome what a great party you have for your Church-way Almost another Nation in New-England and Almost another Nation of your way in old England which may serve to ballance your opposite party of Presbytery in England and Scotland and therefore the Parliament shall doe well to take notice of your Numbers to grant you a Toleration at least of your Church-way lest you being such multitudes should c. I could tell stories what some of your way have spoken if they might not have their way but I shall spare them now The second part of your praise of New-England is And among them some as holy and judicious Divines as this Kingdome hath bred That there are holy and good Divines among them whom I truly love and honour I acknowledge but I judge this too transcendent a phrase and more then befits the words of sobernesse Some as holy and judicious as this Kingdome hath bred It had been an expression high enough to say as holy and judicious Divines as any you now know in this Kingdome but to say as this Kingdome hath bred how know you that and how can you affirm it You were not acquainted with many who lived before being all young men to speake of so that there might be before your times men more judicious and holy and if we may judge by the works of some men and by their lives written and by the reports from good hands of the godly ancient Ministers there were men more judicious and learned then any now in New England as Whitaker Reynolds Brightman and others and more holy as Mr Greenham Mr Banes old Mr. Dod c. But for the holy and judicious Divines of New England there are not above three or foure at most were ever accounted so eminent I might say but two and yet the present age hath Divines in England to compare with them both for learning judiciousnesse and piety so as you needed not to have gone backe to the ages past Take the prime man of them all in new England and yet he is not to be accounted as judicious and learned as ever any this kingdome bred Doctor Whitakers never held any opinion that was accounted erroneous nor any private peculiar opinion but what was commonly held in the Church of God as it is reported in his life but the most eminent Minister in New-England though he be an excellent and worthy man hath had his errours and I referre you for proofe to his Discourse about clearing the Doctrine of Reprobation which is in some of your hands
with his being deceived for a time in the businesse of M Wheelwright and Mistris Hutchinson and some of those opinions about Sanctification evidencing Justification and to some other manuscripts and printed things about the Church-way where there are many things of wit and fancie more then of deep judgement The third part of your praise rises so high as 't is hardly to be paralel'd The sinceritie of them of New-England in their way restisi'd before all the world and will be to all generations to come by the greatest undertaking but that of our father Abraham out of his owne Country and his seed after him a transplanting themselves many thousand miles distance and that by sea into a wildernesse c. Certainly some Independents then must write their Chronicle or else their sincerity will not be so testified to all the world neither will they be so famous to all succeeding generations It is well that in this high praise of them who went to New-England there was some exception and that Abraham their father was excepted how ever in the instance you presently give of their undertaking you secretly preferre the men of New-England before Abraham for Abraham went by land and not by sea and not many thousand miles distance nor into a wildernesse But I am not satisfied in the truth of this undertaking for New-England but am of the mind there both have been and are greater undertakings besides Abraham and his seed after him namely that of Moses and Aaron carrying the people out of Egypt and leading them through the wildernesse to Canaan of Nehemiah and Zerubbabel in building of the Temple besides the present undertaking of the Parliament for Reformation in Church-government and worship against the Papists Prelates and Malignants which you had seen when you writ this Apologie was farre greater and is testified before the world and will be to all generations to come farre beyond that of New-England 'T is strange to me you should thus forget your selves to make the undertaking of New-England to be the greatest that ever was in the world but that of Abrahams But thus partiall we see good men are apt to be for their own party and even starke blind in their own cause And as I am no whit satisfied in this third particular of your praise of New-England so nor in the truth of the thing that you affirme they went to New-England for namely meerely to worship God more purely whether to allure them there could be no other invitement For that which was first held out and most spoken of in the beginning of that Plantation in New-England was the hopes of converting the poore Indians There were some Ministers of note and others who dealt first in that businesse and were prime actors in it that propounded that and really intended it as Mr White of Dorchester Mr Humphreys and I am forgetfull if I have not read some things printed to that purpose As for the worshipping God more purely if your words could bare that sense or you understood them of being freed of the Ceremonies and of Episcopall government that was some part of the designe and ayme though not meerely that but if by worshipping God more purely be meant the worshipping God in the Church-way and the Church-government pleaded for in this Apology it was not in the thoughts of them who were the first movers in it or of the Ministers who were sent over in the beginning as is apparent by a Letter of Mr Cottons sent to Mr Skelton a Minister upon his falling into the Church-way after he came over wherein Mr Cotton writes to him that he went from England of another judgement and tells him how this came about namely from them of New-Plymouth who were Mr Robinsons people and further unto many who went over to New-England after the first and second yeare there were other invitements then meerely worshipping God more purely some of them concluding peremptorily this Kingdome would be destroyed and there would be a hiding place as also the great commendations of the Countrey and Land for subsistence many being low in their estates here led many into a fooles paradââ¦ce who finding all things so contrary to the high reports given out and their expectations have had leisure enough to repent since And some of you who to my knowledge intended for New-England yet when you came to understand better what a hard Countrey it was would not be of the number of them whose sincerity should be testified before all the world and unto all generations to come by going to New-England to worship God more purely when to allure you thither there was no other invitement And now after all this large narration of your falling off from the dark part and of your inquiring into the light part and the story of your impartial looking upon the word of Christ and of your consulting with reformed Churches and looking upon the old Non-conformists and observing the Separatists together with the examples of New-England you plainely come in the close of this Section to declare that for which all this was written namely to possesse the Reader of your freedome and un-ingagement notwithstanding all this to take that way or every thing in each way that was truth whereas you would insinuate that other men who differ from you were not so free nor un-engaged But how likely this is and how un-ingaged and free you were I desire the Reader to remember what presumption if not proofes I have already brought to proove the contrary As for those two Parenthesis brought in of the way of New-England namely those improved to a better Edition and greater refinement by all the fore-montioned helps and that all which we looke upon as reformed Churches To the first of these I say 1. It is a high confidence and presumption to judge the wayes and practises of a few in New-England to be better and more refined then of all the reformed Churches in Christendome 2. What ever the Edition and refinement of New-England is they made little use of all the forementioned helps named by you to attaine unto it few of them consulted with reverence the reformed Churches c. But the maine ground of their improvement to this new Edition and great refinement as you terme it was their consultation with them of New-Plymouth as appeares both by Mr Cottons Letter and by other relations To the second I can judge no other reason of inserting it here nor of calling the way of New-England in that first Parenthesis a better Edition and greater refinement then of any of the reformed Churches but onely that we may understand in what sense you took that part of the Covenant to be brought to agreement with the best reformed Churches that you meant and accounted New-England the best reformed Churches and so satisfie your consciences in taking that branch of the Covenant whereas we looke upon the reformed Churches those of France Scotland Holland c. who are
known to us by their confessions and I never knew till this Apologie came forth that ever the Churches of New-England were stiled the reformed Churches as the Brownists and Separatists never yet were unto whom yet the Parenthesis relates as well as to any of the other Churches And for our own Congregations we meane of England in which through the grace of Christ we were converted and exercised our Ministeries long to the conversion of many others we have this sincere profession to make before God and all the world that all that conscience of the defilements we conceived to cleave to the true worship of God in them or of the unwarranted power in Church Governours exercised therein did never work in any of us any other thought much lesse opinion but that multitudes of the Assemblies and Parochiall Congregations thereof were the true Churches and body of Christ and the Ministery thereof a true Ministery Much lesse did it ever enter into our hearts to judge them Antichristian we saw and cannot but see that by the same reason the Churches abroad in Scotland Holland c. though more reformed yet for their mixture must be in like manner judged no Churches also which to imagine or conceive is and hath ever been an horrour to our thoughts Yea we alwayes have professed and that in these times when the Church of England were the most either actually over spread with defilements or in the greatest danger thereof and when our selves had least yea no hopes of ever so much as visiting our own Land againe in peace and safety to our persons that we both dââ¦d and would hold a Communion with them as the Churches of Christ. And besides this profession as a reall testimony thereof some of us after we actually were in this way of communion baptized our children in Parishionall Congregations and as we had occasion did offer to receive into the Communion of the Lords Supper with us some whom we knew godly that came to visit us when we were in our exile upon that relation fellowship and commembership they held in their Parish Churches in England they professing themselves to be members thereof and belonging thereunto What we have since our returne publikely and avowedly madâ⦠declarations of to this purpose many hundreds can witnesse and some of our brethren in their printed bookes candidly doe testifie for us In this Section you come to declare your judgements concerning the Congregations of England and the Ministery of them wherein you apologize for your selves in regard of misapprehensions you might lye under in respect of your judgements concerning them For what good you speake of them now and for owning them as your own in which you were converted and in which you converted many others I thanke you But for the sincere profession you make before God and all the world that all that conscience of the defilements you conceive to cleave to the true worship of God in them or of the unwarranted power in Church Governours exercised therein did never work in any of you any other thought much lesse opinion but that multitudes of the Assemblies and Parochiall Congregations thereof were the true Churches and body of Christ and the Ministery thereof a true Ministery much lesse did it ever enter into your hearts to judge them Antichristian You must pardon me if I believe not this profession Nay I must tell some of you that if Letters and other Manuscripts which goe out under some of your names and are in my hands be yours as I have great reason to believe they are I shall prove this sincere profession of yours to be insincere and shall evidence the contrary to what you professe before God and the world namely that the corruptions which did cleave to our worship and the unwarranted power did not only work thoughts and opinions in you that our Churches and Ministers were not true but that you exprest so much and acted in the vertue of it nay even to judge them Antichristian There are some passages in one Letter more especially amongst others written by Mr Bridge to his loving friends in Norwich Mr Henry King Mr Toft Mr Smith Mr Rayner Mr. Mapp the substance of which Letter to them is Not to be content with the ordinance of hearing but to looke out after the plat-forme of Government left by Christ and his Apostles by Elders Pastours Teachers Deacons and Widdowes and to consider that every Church hath the power within it selfe and is not subject to one Officer or to another Congregation but to the whole body and to that whereof the member is a part And then Mr Bridge falls upon Episcopall government under which these friends of his lived as Antichristian and that their Episcopall government under which they lived was Papall and Romish and then brings in these words And will you then submit unto it what becomes of them that doe worship the beast and what of them that receive his marke Rev 13. 8. Rev. 149 10. It is a worshipping it is a receiving a marke to practise any Canon constitution or order that is framed or injoyned by that government What you have no Elders Pastors c. What you sit stand kneele at the command of that government and in the Postscript of this Letter he adds these words paying a Pepper-corne may acknowledge a Land-lord and the standing up at the Creed may acknowledge the government Now I demand of Mr Bridge and the other Apologists what multitudes of the Assemblies and parochiall Congregations were there in England that were wholly exempt from that Government or whether there was any that did refuse wholy all the Orders injoyned by that Government and if so whether then in Mr Bridges opinion and in his letters all our Congregations and Mââ¦nisters were not Antichristian in worshipping the Beast and receiving his marke let all the world and his owne conscience judge And for further proofe unto one of Mr Bridges letters were seven Questions annexed and propounded concerning the Ministerie worship and constitution of the Church Assemblies in England the usuall questions the Brownists make I have also the copie of a letter written from Mr Simpson to a man of note in London whose name out of respect to him I conceale the substance of which letter is to have him consider Whether he may live without all the Ordinances if they be any where to be had or live in danger of daily defilement and there is one thing which together with these he desires him to thinke upon namely what that state and condition is wherein we should injoy the Ordinances we should call nothing the meanes of salvation or Ordinances but what God hath appointed to his Church A Church is Christs bodie it consists of holy members in show at least joyned together to Christ as to a Head and as there is a bond whereby we are invisibly joyned so is there a bond to him visibly Ceremonies are nothing in regard
true Churches namely your seeing that if you had accounted our Churches no true Churches that by the same reason the Churches abroad in Scotland Holland c. yet for their mixture must in like manner be judged no Churches also I answer 't is no concluding Argument M. Robinson who was quick-sighted and lived in Holland long and seeing their mixture yet acknowledges those Churches true but denies ours to be true upon other grounds besides the mixture and 't is evident your reason is insufficient for if your description of a visible Church were only upon difference in the point of mixture and your grounds of separation only upon mixt communion then your Reason had some weight in it but you know your exceptions were many against our Churches which lay not against the Reformed Churches but it is strange to me if you were so good at consequences that you saw and could not but see when there was no necessitie of seeing you could not see the necessarie consequences of your principles about a Church and Ministerie nay not see even your contradictions For let a man but take your owne Positions and Assertions concerning a true visible Church and the true calling of Ministers and lay together your quarrelling with us and leaving us upon those grounds because we have no such Churches and Ministers and yeâ⦠to affirme that multitudes of our Parochiall Churches are true Churches And certainly however you who are Schollars might be such good Logicians to make such distinctions to salve all as you conceited yet your people could not but they from your principles and positions about Church Ministerie Worship and Government have judged us no true Churches nor true Ministers but have wondred at this sincere profession of yours before God and the world concerning our Churches and Ministers saying they understood you otherwise and they were much deceived if you held not otherwise at first though now you expresse your selves after this manner And I can hardly beleeve had you made alwaies and frequently such professions of our Churches and Ministers and of keeping communion with them as the Churches of Christ that ever so many had fallen off to your way But thus 't is in all the way of errours men by sits will expresse things as other men do who are Orthodox but yet in a sence of their own to avoid exceptions and that they may be thought to hold as others do therby the more to draw and work some men off to their way when yet in the common sense and understanding of the points they hold otherwise As the Socinians say they hold Christ God and call him so but in a sence of their own and yet denie it in the Orthodox sense So Pelagians and Arminians will extoll the grace of God and that a man can doe nothing without it and yet in that sence wherein the controversie is they set up free-will above the grace of God And so Antinomians will say they doe not denie the law of God and yet in the sense controverted are flat against it And so the Papists will say they hold and looke to be saved by Christ as well as any Protestant though it 's well knowne there is a great difference betweene them in the point of Justification So you and many of your way in a sense of your owne give us good words and say we have true Churches and true Ministerie and yet in the sense of the controversie you teach flat contrary as doth appeare both by printed Tractââ¦tes and by manuscripts and many practises As to that Profession in this Section That in the times when the Churches of England were most either actually overspread with defilements or in the greatest danger therof that we both did and would bold a communion with them as the Churches of Christ I answer what doe I heare words when I see deeds so contrary How can I beleeve this profession that ye would hold communion with the Churches of England as the Churches of Christ under their greatest defilements when as you have never held communion with any of them in the time of their greatest reformation and puritie In this three yeares last since your comming over wherein we have been so free from pollution in worship and since that in so many Churches in London there hath bin the totall laying aside of prescribed formes of prayer and that great care to keepe away both ignorant and prophane persons Which of you five have received the Lords Supper in any of these true Churches and bodies of Christ I never could learne that any of you five nor any of the members of your Churches have communicated with us I can tell you of the adding to your Church Assemblies great numbers since and of your receiving the Lords Supper at night in private houses and how some of you who have not Churches here in London goe to separated Churches to partake in the Lords Supper But Brethren why doe you deale thus and write thus to make men beleeve as if you held great communion with our Churches now who would have held it with them in such bad times I desire you to speake plaine English and not to speake after this manner as you doe too often in this Apologie and to interpret to us in your Reply to this Answer what you meane by both Did and Would hold communion with the Churches of England as the Churches of Christ I know no communion you did hold or doe with us now though so reformed And if you do and will what means that wall of partition between us your new constituted Churches As for thââ¦ââ¦aring of Sermons sometimes in our Churches and preachiââ¦g in our Congregations I doubt whether you hold that a keeping communion with our Churches and Ministers but rather preach as gifted men and heare ours as gifted men and how ever if M. Robinson and some of your way may be beleeved they hold hearing of the Word no Act of Communion nor no proper nor peculiar thing of the Church And that you are of the same judgement I have great reason both from your principles and practise to thinke so As for that reall testimonie besides your profession That some of us after we actually were in this way of communion baptized our children in Parishionall Congregations whereby you would inferre you held a communion with our Congations as the Churches of Christ I answer this is no reall testimony thereof because it cannot be understood but in the sense before opened of Churches and Ministery And besides if Mr Sympson were one of this Some who baptized his children in Parishionall Congregations 't is so inconsistent with what he writ in the Letter before quoted of the Church and baptisme that I know not how to reconcile these together And the truth is many of your practises are oft times so in-coherent with some of your principles of Church-fellowship as for instance Pastors are necessary Officers in your Churches and yet according
to your practises your Churches are many yeares without them that a man cannot tell when he hath a reall testimony what you hold or how long you have held it And as for that other reall testimony as you had occasion offering to receive some of ours whom ye knew godly that came to visit you when you were in exile upon that relation fellowship and com-membership they held in their Parish-churches in England 1. 'T is no reall testimony because you oââ¦red it but doe not say you performed it 2. If you had actually performed it it is no such reall testimony of the truth of our Churches and ministery but of your own rather into the communion whereof they were received 3. Still their admission was founded upon that distinction of Implicit Churches as appeares by your following words For you would admit them upon such termes as you would gaine a principle of your own by them get more by it then communion with you was worth namely that such who were known to be godly might not come to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper unlesse they were members of some particular Congregation and so in their partaking with you they must yeeld that grand Brownisticall principle the foundation of other errors among the Separatists namely that Sacraments belong not to visible believers but as they are members of some particular Congregation As also you put them upon a practice and order never required by example or precept in the Scriptures And let me intreat you in your reply you give to this answer to give me a Scripture to prove that all men who come to the Lords Supper must professe their member-ship and their retaining to such a particular Congregation I professe my selfe of another judgement and cast the glove to any of you five or to you all That it is lawfull for the Ministers of Christ to receive such whom they know to be godly to the Lords Supper though they be not members of a particular Church and to receive those who are members without any professing themselves to be so Suppose some godly Merchants or Marriners who all their dayes travell and never stay long in any one place yet in all places where they come desire to joyne in the ordinances ought not such to be received The standing rule of comming to the Lords Supper will be found to be faith and godlinesse shown forth rather then the formality of membership But deale ingeniously doe you tell us here all that you required of the godly that came to visit you or doe you tell us only a part which question I the rather propound because as you doe relate in other parts of this Narration as in the eighth page so I find Mr Batchelour one of you writing from Rotterdam of your Churches that they will not keepe back the Sacrament from any of the godly of such Churches in England as Mr Goodwins and Mr Calamyes are alwayes provided that their own Pastours doe consent unto it Now the godly who are gone into Holland and especially to New-England not finding any such word in Scripture of bringing a ticket from their Ministers and so comming into those Countreyes without it may be long kept from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper till they either goe into England and fetch it or till they send for it over and have a returne back of the consent of their own Pastors which may be was the reason that though you offered to receive into the Communion of the Lords Supper some godly that came to visit you in your exile yet for want of bringing their Pastors consent unto it returned into England without partaking in the Lords Supper with you Which by the way will be a good warning for all that henceforth goe over into Holland or New-England to carry their Ministers consents over with them least otherwise they be not admitted to the Lords Supper and that you doe not deale plainely with us in this relation of admitting the godly in the Parish Churches of England into the Communion of the Lords Supper with you but there is some reservation and evasion I much doubt because the known godly in the Parish-church of Coleman-street which amongst Parish-churches is one of your true Churches in England cannot be admitted to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper by vertue of their relation of membership they hold in the Parish-church never since their Pastor fell into your Church-way As for your publike and avowed declarations to this purpose which many hundreds can witnesse I never heard of any of them in any publike meetings though I have been in many nor in any Sermons you have preacht though I have heard of many things you preacht which you are like to heare of in this Answer But if I may speake what I have heard there hath been a Narrative promised from you of what you hold which many Ministers also can witnesse but was never performed by you till this day As to that in the close of this Section that some of your brethren in their printed books doe candidly testifie for you It is but one of them not some unlesse you take in Mr Herles Imprimatur to your Apologie who I doubt not before this time by what he hath heard from some of his bretheren of the Assembly and seen in that book intituled Reformation of Church-government in Scotland with the contents of the Letters from some Churches beyond the seas besides the light this Answer will give will see easily how by your courting of him he was surprized And it is no wonder that Mr Herle Mr Channell with some other men of worth having lived somewhat remote and having not been much conversant with you and your distinctions might be at first mistaken with such good words and solemne professions And as we alwayes held this respect unto our own Churches in this Kingdome so we received and were entertained with the like from those reformed Churches abroad among whom we were cast to live wee both mutually gave and received the right hand of fellowship which they on their parts abundantly manifested by the very same characters and testimonies of difference which are proper to their own orthodox Churches and whereby they use to distinguish them from all those Sects which they tollerate but not owne and all the assemblies of them which yet now we are here some would needs ranke us with granting to some of us their own Churches or publike places for worship to assemble in where themselves met for the worship of God at differing houres the same day As likewise the priviledge of ringing a publike Bell to call unto our meetings Which we mention because it is amongst them made the great signall of difference between their own allowed Churches and all other assemblies unto whom it is strictly prohibited and forbidden as Guiciardine hath long since observed And others of us found such acceptance with them that in testimony thereof they allowed a full and
liberall maintenance annually for our Ministers yea and constantly also wine for our Communions And then we againe on our parts not only held all brotherly correspondencie with their Divines but received also some of the members of their Churches who desired to communicate with us unto communion in the Sacraments and other ordinances by vertue of their relation of membership retained in those Churches In the last Section I prooved both by Letters and many other presumptions you alwayes held not that respect to the Church of England you seeme to professe in that Section if now at last you be growne more sober and wise upon reviewing your principles I am glad of it non est pudor ad meliora transire For this Section your being received and entertained with the like respect from those Reformed Churches abroad and your mutually giving and receiving the right hand of fellowship If I may beleeve reports and Letters and those not light but from Ministers and good people I have been by word of mouth told and I have in writing from thence grounds to question the truth of this Narration A godly Minister out of Holland in answer to some questions sent about the truth of your Apologie writes thus to this present Section And here I cannot but adde this that whereas the Apologeticall Narration mentions these things as an argument of the incouragements they had in these parts and their good concurrence with the Churches here it hath been affirmed to me from very good testimony that however the Magistrates at Rotterdam for politick ends as to gather company to them which is for the profit of the place yet the Churches there I meane the Dutch never approoved of the course held there by these Brethren and their people It hath been affirmed to me that many of the Dutch Ministers were much offended at Mr Bridges being ordained Minister by the Lay-elders without any preaching Presbyters And what ever right-hand fellowship and brotherly correspondency you might hold with the Dutch Divines some of the English Ministers of the Reformed Churches there have complained of your great strangenesse and distance towards them and instance hath been given me particularly by a great friend of yours now in London that when some of you have come to Amsterdam you never would goe to Mr Herrings a good old non-conformist but have gone to Mr Canne's the Separatist and to his Church And besides this report told me some yeares agoe from a friend of your owne that I might not only beleeve reports I sent over into Holland some questions about the truth of some things related by you in this Apologie the contrary whereunto I had been informed of before and among other questions upon this Section I propounded what communion and converse passed between the godly English Ministers and their Congregations and you or whether when you came to Amsterdam you went not rather to the Brownists meetings and conversed with Mr Canne more then the Reformed Ministers Unto which question I had this answer in so many words sent To this I can say that since my comming hither we have had no such communion with them as that we have prevailed with any of them to preach in our Congregation though I am sure some of them have beene earnestly importuned thereunto indeed Mr Bridge seemed once to be willing but did not And for their going to the Brownists and conversing with Mr Canne more then us that is undeniable What you may of this reade in Epistle to the Rejoinder indefence of Mr Bradshaw against Mr Canne is most true and certaine But suffer me a little to examine the particulars wherein you would proove the mutuall giving and receiving the right-hand of fellowship For the first That you were received and entertained with the like respect that you gave to our Churches in England I easily beleeve which was but little And if the Reformed Churches look't upon you and you on them as you did upon our Churches in this Kingdome you have no cause to boast here of mutuall giving and receiving the right hand of fellowship remembring what I answered to your last Section concerning your profession of our Churches As to that proofe you bring of their giving you the right hand of fellowship in their abundantly manifesting it by the very same characters and testimonies of difference which are proper to their own orthodox Churches and whereby they use to distinguish them from all those Sects c I answer this was not to all of your Churches for Mr Simpson which yet is your way and is here owned by you all in this Apologie had not a Church or publike place for worship granted to him nor the priviledge of ringing a Bell to call to meetings but was looked upon as a Sect as Mr Bridge told me And in a Letter out of Holland from a good hand to that question Whether Mr Simpsons Church had the allowance of ringing a publike Bell to call to their meeting and whether any maintenance allowed by the States 'T is answered To this I shall say I never yet heard by any that his Church had any such allowance of Bell or maintenance by the States Now if Mr Simpsons Church was lookt upon as a Sect tollerated but not owned wanting that great signall of difference between allowed Churches and all other assemblies namely the priviledge of ringing a publike Bell to call unto their meetings and the rest of your Churches being just of the same way and constitution with his as appeares by this Apologie then the ranking of you now you are here with Sects is no great injury to you Neither will the granting to your two other Churches publike places to worship with maintenance for some of your Ministers c. free you from being lookt upon as Sects by the Churches and Ministers there but I must tell you these priviledges came from other grounds as namely one of your Churches consisting of many persons of great quality and going at first to a priviledged place the other Church having formerly been a Church in the way of the Reformed Churches there and so had then the allowance of a publike place The first sensible declining of that Church to the new-way being by Mr Peters before he went to New-England Now Mr Bridge comming to that Church and bringing with him and after him wealthy Citizens and Clothiers by which the Magistrates at Rotterdam knowing well their advantage No wonder though they permitted that Church their publike place and gave to their Ministers a full and liberall maintenance yea and Wine for their Communions and yet should gaine well by it As for your holding all brotherly correspondency with their Divines which I suppose you meane the Dutch not knowing any of them I can say nothing against it but only 't is a great presumption that holding so little brotherly correspondencie with our own English Divines there you held not much with the Dutch But grant that
which you say to be true that you held all faire correspondencie with them that might be upon other grounds for your own advantage and benefit many wayes you being strangers and they in their own countrey as also to see if you could gaine any of their Ministers to your Church-way And as for your receiving some of their members unto communion in the Sacraments that might be but to strengthen your own way and to advance that Church-principle of receiving them by vertue of their relation of membership And here I desire to put two questions to you 1. Whether in receiving some members of the Dutch Churches who desired to communicate with you you put them upon professing themselves to be members of their Churches and belonging thereunto as you did the English who came to you 2. Though you received some of them unto communion in your Churches whether any of you ever received the Lords Supper in any of their Churches or in any of the English Churches in Holland who were not of your way and communion But grant all you say in all your profession of your respect and holding communion with the Dutch Churches whereby you would free your selves from the imputation of Separation and make the Reader beleeve the Brownists and you had no affinity I answer You say no more nor hardly so much as Mr Robinson writ in his Apologie 25 yeares since of those Reformed Churches page 10 11. Now for the way and practise of our Churches we give this briefe and generall account Our publike worship was made up of no other parts then the worship of all other reformed Churches doth consist of As publike and solemne prayers for Kings and all in authority c. the reading the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament Exposition of them as occasion was and constant preaching of the word the administration of the two Sacraments Baptisme to Infants and the Lords Supper singing of Psalmes collections for the poore c. every Lords day For Officers and publike Rulers in the Church we set up no other but the very same which the reformed Churches judge necessary and sufficient and as Instituted by Christ and his Apostles for the perpetuall government of his Church that is Pastors Teachers Ruling-Elders with us not lay but Ecclesiastique persons separated to that service and Deacons And for the matter of government and censures of the Church we had nor executed any other but what all acknowledge namely Admonition and Excommunication upon obstinacie and impenitency which we blesse God we never exercised This latter we judged should be put in execution for no other kind of sins then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties known light as whether it be a sin in manners and conversation such as is committed against the light of nature or the common received practises of Christianity professed in all the Churches of Christ or if in opinions then such as are likewise contrary to the received principles of Christianity and the power of godlinesse professed by the party himselfe and universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches and no other sins to be the subject of that dreadfull sentence In this Section you give us a Narration of the way and practises of your Churches Wherein in the beginning you tell the Reader We give this briefe and generall account But how much better had it been and more proper to have given a full and particular account here then in your other parts about New-England and the Reformed Churches in Holland A full and particular account of the way and practises of your Churches had answered more the nature of such a Narration and would have satisfied all men but why did you in the most materiall part give such a briefe and generall account knowing that under brevities and generalities there lies much mistake and deceit And let me tell you this briefe and generall account falls short of your way and practises and either you had bad memories in your writing this Apologie about the parts of your worship Officers and censures to forget some of them or else you have on purpose conceal'd them holding out the bright side of the cloud namely what the Reformed Churches practise but hiding the back which is so much the more justly to be excepted against because as you set down the words and give the account they are not true but I can say and make it good too your publike worship was made up of other parts then the worship of all other Reformed Churches namely of Prophesying in your Congregations and for Officers and publike Rulers in the Church you set up others then the reformed Churches namely Widdowes And for the matter of government and censures of the Church you have executed others besides Admonition and Excommunication namely deposition of a Minister and confession of offences publikely and orderings of solemne Fasting for Humiliation upon confession of sins as your selves relate the story in the 16th page and one and twentieth besides you hold other censures of the Church the Sentence of of Non-communion with Declaration and Protestation to all other Churches as appeares by your own relation page 17 18 19. For publike worship that you exercised prophecying I could name unto you who of the members have prophecied at Arnheim and upon what subject but I spare them I could tell you how Mr Bridge and Mr Sympson fell out upon the point of Prophecie as Mr Bridge informed me and of the exercising of Prophesie in Mr Sympsons Church at Rotterdam as well as at Arnheim I could out of manuscripts produce how arguments are framed to draw away people from our Churches upon this ground as being defective in some ordinances namely prophesying And besides prophesying I propound it to you whether some of you have not held out some other publike worship then the reformed Churches hold namely Hymns and annointing the sick members of the Church with oyle As also whether a little before your comming over into England some members of the Church of Arnheim did not propound the holy kisse or the kisse of love to be practised by Church-members Nay whether by some persons in that Church was it not begun to be used and practised And in this enumeration of the parts of publike worship I desire to know why you put in c. and what is meant by c. for that implies more parts then you enumerate And we know c. is a dangerous and suspicious phrase ever since the late Canons and Oath for under that c. may be meant Prophesying and Hymnes and Annointing with oyle and the Kisse of love and many other parts which the reformed Churches practise not and so your publike worship may be made up of many other parts then the worship of all other reformed Churches and that there is great cause to speake thus and doubt appeares because I know not nor cannot reckon up any other part of publike worship
should have laid downe particularly as wherein and how farre you agreed with the Reformed Churches so also wherein you departed from them namely you should have shewed in what you practised more then they doe and wherein you practise short of them and in the things you practised with them yet how you differ'd in the manner of them but to returne to that of censures Reformed Churches practise besides admonition and before they come to excommunication that which is called by Divines Abstentio à sacracaena but you doe not so but conceale this but brethren why should you not practise this especially considering how according to your principles the Church is to receive the Lords Supper every Lords day Now suppose some members commit a great sinne on the Saturday which though comming it be known to the Ministers or Elders and some of the people either there may be no time to call the Church to admonish the parties or if there be for admonition yet not time sufficient for the parties to testifie Repentance and yet the persons may not be judged obstinate and impenitent as to be excommunicated but the persons offending will come now to the Lords table in the interim what will you doe in this case And further the Reformed Churches enjoyne the censure of open confession of sinnes and practise deposition of officers from their places which may justly arise upon some cases and yet not thinke it fit to proceed unto excommunication as your selves practised in M. Wards case never proceeding to give him up to Satan but how lame and defective is this your Narration about the governement of the Church onely relating two things you practised in common with the Reformed Churches and as concealing other things you practised not with them so wholly passing over in silence here all your different way of practising from all Churches in the way of ordination in the way of constituting Churches and admission into them and in the way of governing by the votes and suffrages of the whole bodie in the way of celebration the Lords Supper receiving it at night c. in the Sacrament of Baptisme with many other particulars which whether it be fairly done I appeale to the Reader who is by this much deceived thinking upon the reading of this Narration that you had agreed in all things of Worship Officers Censures with the Reformed Churches But to returne to that censure of Excommunication which you insist upon laying downe your judgement about the subject of that censure As for your blessing God you never exercised it There may be but little ground for such a blessing but cause rather to be humbled for not using it seasonably I judge had you practised it some revilings evill speakings between many members of your Churches with some other offences might have been prevented But there is no such great cause to set out your selves by the non-exercise of Excommunication if what you hold for the matter of it be considered wherein I suppose you differ from all Orthodox Reformed Churches and doe open a wide gappe to much licentiousnesse both in doctrine and practise What doe you judge Is it not to be put in Execution for no other kind of sinnes then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light c. What if men practise Polygamie prophane the Lords day by using it as they doe any other daie what if they doe hold and accordingly will have practised communitie of goods amongst beleevers what if they maintaine that Christians ought not to be Magistrates all which are not condemned in all the Churches of Christ especially if some Churches may be taken for Churches of Christ and we have reason to beleeve by your manner of expressions you include such neither are perpetrated against the parties knowne light but rather are practised upon new light and as new truthes and let me intreate you in your Replie to explain your meaning what you meane by all the Churches of Christ and by the common received practises of Christianitie and what by the principles of Christianitie universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches whether by Churches you understand the Churches onely of your owne communion and waie or the Churches which are commonly called the Reformed Or else all Churches whatsoever that are so called as besides your owne and the Reformed the Churches of the Anabaptists Antinomians and such like And I have reason to propound this question your words being so doubtfull Now if your words and phrases be taken in the first sence of your Churches only that those sinnes and no other are to be the subject of Excommunication then great sins and errours according to the Scripture and judged so by Orthodox Churches may escape Excommunication and on the contrarie many matters which according to Scripture are neither sinnes nor errours but only your Churches hold them so may have that dreadfull sentenee passe upon them but if you meane it in the largest sence for all kind of Churches and for the received principles and practises of Christianitie professed and acknowledged in all the Churches then more sinnes and errours so judged by the word by most Churches and by your owne Churches too will not be acknowledged for such in all the rest of the Churches and so shall escape that censure But if you should say you meane onely the Reformed-churches commonly so called and the common received practises professed by them it cannot be so understood as is evident by your own expressions in this passage about Excommunication So that here are strange unsafe rules to goe by in the censure of Excommunication and I judge it is a part of the new light and now truths of these times never yet given by any learned Classicall Authour How much better were it for Churches to make the subject of Excommunication such sins and errours which the Scripture hath made so and those sinnes to be agreed upon by common consent in Assemblies and Synods so drawne up for all to know them But if it be objected that this may hinder further light and an after discoverie I answer when any thing more shall come to be found out this need be no hinderance unto any light but by the publike Government and common consent upon good grounds may be added But this your judgement about the censure of Excommunication I feare is calculated for the Meridian of pretended liberty of conscience Now this position of holding the subject of Excommunication to be onely such sins and errours as are against the parties knowne light and the common received practises of Christianity professed in all Churches and no other to be the subject of it tends much to the tolerating of Sects and Heresies which in this impure age is by many men and by too many of the Church way so studiously promoted against the nature of Reformation and true zeale But if one of the great ends of Excommunication be to preserve others from
infection and to keepe the Church of God pure as Divines teach then thuogh the party offending shall pretend such sins or errours are not against his knowne light neither contrary to the received principles of Christianity universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches yet Excommunication ought to be exercised by them who have power in the Church And for our direction in these or whatsoever else requisite to the manage of them We had these three principles more especially in our eye to guide and steere our practise by 1. First The supreame rule without us was the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles Our consciences were possessed with that reverence and adoration of the fulnesse of the Scriptures that there is therein a compleate sufficiencie as to make the man of God perfect so also to make the Churches of God perfect meere circumstances we except or what rules the law of nature doth in common dictate if the directions and examples therein delivered were fully knowne and followed And although we cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules therein which may meet with all cases and emergencies that may or sometimes did fall out amongst us or that may give satisfaction unto all Queries possible to be put unto us yet we found principles enough not only fundamentall and essentiall to the being of a Church but superstructorie also for the well-being of it and those to us cleare and certain and such as might well serve to preserve our Churches in peace and from offence and would comfortably guide us to heaven in a safe way And the observation of so many of those particulars to be laid forth in the word became to us a more certaine evidence and cleare confirmation that there were the like rules and ruled cases for all occasions whatsoever if we were able to discerne them And for all such cases wherein we saw not a cleare resolution from Scripture example or direction we still professedly suspended untill God should give us further light not daring to seeke out what was defective in our light in matters divine with humanâ⦠prudence thâ⦠fatall errour to Reformation lest by sowing any peece of the old garment unto the new we should make the rent worse we having this promise of grace for our encouragement in this which in our publike Assemblies was often for our comfort mentioned that in thus doing the will of God we should know more From the Narration of your way and practises of your Churches you come now to shew the three great principles above all others by which you guided your selves in your practise which I come now to examine and doubt not but as you have exprest them to discover to the Readers their weaknesse and defectivenesse and easily to take off all the seeming strength of the reasons hinted in them for your selves and against us To the first Principle the supreame rule without you the primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles which also is exprest by you in the third page as that sacredpillar of fire to guide you by in all the positive part of Church worship and Government I answer why is the old Testament forgotten by you and in both these places not so much as mentioned What is the old Testament no patterne nor example to you in Church-worship and governement nor is there nothing recorded there any part of the sacred pillar of fire to guide you by Consider whether in this you follow not too much the example of some Heretiques and erroneous spirits who will have nothing to doe with the old Testament in the points they hold This is the way of the Anabaptists and of the Antinomians both of old and at this day and I am sorry such men as you in such a formall Apologie and Narration of your way as you hold out this to be should so farre forget your selves as to countenance such persons so farre And I must tell you that your search was insufficient and your rule too short if you looked only on the first Apostolike directions patterne and examples of those Primitive Churches erected by the Apostles For in the old Testament there are many rules directions and examples as a pillar of fire to guide the Churches now by as that Rom. 15. 4. showes namely those examples and rules of morall and common equitie else the Church of God should loose now many a good ground for many practises and you and your partie have been ill advised to fetch grounds out of the old Testament for many things you hold and practise There are some things you practise that you have no proofe for at all out of the new Testament either in example or precept As for instance in the point of Ordination by the people without Officers you alleadge the 8. Numb 20. but can bring none out of the new Testament so for the Church-covenant you multiply places out of the old as Ier. 50. 5. c. But none out of the new and so for that power which you allow Christian Magistrates in the Church you fetch from the old Testament So in the point of idolatrie against the naming the names used by Idolaters you bring all out of the old Testament as Mr Burroughs in his Exposition on Hosea 2. And without the taking in the old Testament which you so wholly forget in this your first principle you would loose much strength in severall points you hold and practise against some who differ from you As in the Baptisme of Infants from the Covenant made with Abraham and his seed and the Circumcision of Infants as in keeping the Christian Sabbath from the fourth Commandement as in speaking against humane inventions in the worship of God from the second Commandement with other particulars of the same kind Now if you will use the old Testament in some examples and commands as you doe though here you forget to mention it Then grounds out of the old Testament in matters not ceremoniall and judiciall proper to the Jewes policie Nation and times but in things of morall and common equitie will justifie other practises And how then you can escape in the way of Church government the lawfullnesse of appeales from lower Judicatories to higher and the lawfullnesse of Formes of publike prayer composed and prescribed with other particulars I see not But because you foresaw these and such like as that of a Nationall Church you here decline the old Testament and speake only of the New and but of a part only of that too namely that of the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles as your words in both pages third and ninth intimate The Churches erected by the Apostles and the first Apostolike directions patternes and examples of the Primitive Churches recorded in the new Testament which reaches no farther then the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles But though you doe
they goe by that therefore they are in the right certainly the great difficultie in knowing and finding out the directions and examples and in applying them aright and their weake knowledge will give ground sufficient to all reasonable men to suspect the contrary And for your selves Brethren the Reader hath greater reason to judge from what you here grant about the difficultie of the Scriptures in the Church-way and your insufficiencie and ignorance in many cases and to many queries that you might be out of the way then from the sufficiency of the Scriptures to make Churches perfect and your making the Scriptures your supreame rule that you only should be in the right and withall taking-in this that the Reformed Churches you depart from and all along reflect upon in this Apologeticall Narration holding the Scriptures in a true sense to have a perfection for Church-government and setting them up as the supreame rule to eye continually and having the great advantage of you knowing the directions and examples in Scripture better then you by reason of their great learning numbers long studying these points all you speake here of this principle as a ground to take men with and possesse the Readers of the truthof your way rather then theirs hath no strength in it but the scale of sufficiencie of knowledg and ability of finding out the rules and applying being heavier on the Reformed Churches side and the other scale of making the Scriptures the rule equall to yours also you must needs be found light compared with them But after your supposition of the great difficulty of understanding this rule and profession of the non-sufficiencie of your knowledge by which you weaken so much what you would gaine by the narration of setting up this first principle as the supreame rule without you yet before you leave it in the following words you seeme to affirme it Indeed interfeering and hovering about not knowing well where to light and to settle between the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scriptures to all Church matters and the difficultie of finding out the rules and directions As the precedent words and subsequent put together doe shew For you found principles enough not only fundamentall and essentiall but superstructorie also and those to you cleare and certaine and such as might well serve c. Now let the Reader judge if these words doe not not declare a sufficiencie of your knowledge without either Ifs or And 's But you must pardon me if I doe not beleeve you found principles enough superstructorie and that upon these two following grounds 1. Had you found principles enough superstructorie for the wel-being of your Churches and those cleare and certaine and such as might well serve to preserve your Churches in peace and from offence and would comfortably guide you to heaven in a safe way How came it to passe that you made no better a use of them for the well-being of your Churches to have preserved them in peace and from offence but that in so short a time so many offences and differences should fall out and you go so uncomfortably to heaven doubting whether you were in the right way for Church-government and order 2. If you had found out principles enough superstructorie why did you not name them at least some of them you might have done well to have given the Reader a taste of them it would have given good content especially in such a Narration I am of opinion both upon your totall silence and upon some search into these points that besides the fundamentall and essentiall principles to the being of a visible Ministeriall Church you found not many superstructories laid downe particularly in the Primitive Churches either in practise or precept namely ordinary perpetuall c. And I doe desire you setting aside Fundamentall essentiall and substantiall principles that for the superstructories upon them and your deductions you would give me proofes from the Scripture for many of your practises setting aside generall rules of the word and common rules of reason and prudence And whereas you make the observation of so many of those particulars laid forth in the word to become a more certain evidence and cleare confirmation that there were the like rules and ruled cases for all occasions whatsoever if you were able to discerne them Had you exprest any of those particulars the Reader might have gained somewhat and I could have better told from your instances what to have answered you and might have shewne you the dissimilitude how they might not have inferr'd the rest but here as in other passages of your booke you find it safest to be in the clouds and to lie hid in generals But grant it for once you observed many particulars It followes not therefore from many to all But this is a point and principle wherein weake arguments will become certain evidence and cleare confirmation to you But let me hint only some things to you now because this discourse is but the answer of a Narration not of all arguments that may be brought you are mistaken both in your Observation and your cleare confirmation of what followes for you shall find that in the superstructories of the government of the Church there are but few particulars laid downe in the patterne and example of the Primitive Churches and those primitive practises are not such a rule given by God in matters of that nature as that all things then practised must be so in all after times or that nothing afterwards might be practised but what is found there For besides meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature there are in severall Churches other things tending to the better edification of those Churches to comelinesse decencie outward reverence order peace grounded upon generall rules of the word which in other Churches are not so by reason of the different customes of such countries and the diversities of times and places wherein they were For that is comelinesse and reverence in one country which is not in another So that my observation of so few particular superstructories recorded in the Primitive Churches namely of common ordinary perpetuall order with the different practises in the severall Churches recorded in the new Testament and sometimes in the same Church in many things of the outward administration of externall order are sound proofes to me there are not rules nor ruled cases for many superstructories in externall Government And as to that clause which followes next in this Section for all such cases wherein you saw not a cleare resolution from Scripture example or direction you still professedly suspended untill God should give you further light not daring to eeke out what was defective in your light in matters divine with humane prudence c. For answer I must tell you you either saw that in the Scripture that we cannot see by all search or else you practised many things that have no cleare resolution from Scripture neither in example
or direction and pray in your Reply to this answer shew me what cleare Resolution you saw from Scripture for your Church-covenant If it be so cleare shew it us What came the word of God out from you or came it to you only hath God given us eyes to see and know the mysteries of his kingdome to see such things as no glorious hypocrite in the highest forme can see and can we not see what is common to hypocrites as well as to true Saints Certainly had Mr Goodwin had such cleare resolution from Scripture for the Church-covenant he would never have returned such an answer after so long a time of receiving Mr Iohn Goodwins letter written with such Giant-like confidence against the Church-covenant as to desire after many weeks longer day to give satisfaction in regard Church-covenant lay so deepe and remote amongst the fundamentals of Church-fellowship which debt I beleeve was never yet paid to this day I should be loath for my part in any thing I practise or hold to have a cleare resolution from Scripture to put off my Brother for proofe of it till to morrow Give me an Apostolicall example or rule if you can where ever the people alone made Ministers why did you not here suspend how durst you be made Ministers in this way by the people alone and either be Ministers without Imposition of hands at all or if any Imposition not by the laying-on of the hands of the Presbyterie but the hands of the people both which are not onely without any example of Scripture but against the Primitive patterne and example Give me a Primitive patterne wherein baptized persons professing the faith of Christ and walking so may not be admitted to Fellowship and communion in the Lords Supper without professing their membership of some particular Congregation Give me a word either of precept or example where ever the lay-Elders did examine persons professing the faith whether they were fit for Church-fellowship and thereupon did propound their names in the Congregation with many such particulars so that you have dared to eeke out divine matters with your owne inventions not indeed with humane Prudence but against humane Prudence and reason as that instance in the way of your making Ministers by the people clearely shewes And I desire that you and others would consider what I say upon this occasion that this is so preposterous and irrationall a rule that had you indeed or should others observe it to practise nothing in matter of externall order unlesse you have a cleare resolution from Scripture in an example or direction you had never met together in a Church-way nor can any society or company of men meet to those ends of constituting a Church and Government and walking in the practise of it but that some things must be done not particularly mentioned in the Scriptures As for your calling humane prudence the fatall errour to Reformation I judge that the want of it in Reformation hath still proved fatall as amongst the Anabaptists Brownists and in New-England also till humane prudence eeked out what was defective in the way of their gathering Churches at the first and till humane prudence punished by banishment and imprisonment under the name of disturbers of the civill peace many members of their Churches for Familisme Anabaptisme c. without which courses and others or the like kinde their Churches and Common-wealth had beene long agoâ⦠ruined And I much wonder you stile humane prudence the fatall errour to Reformation and make Reformation of the Church and humane prudence so opposite especially you your selves knowing and expressing in the 28th page of your Apologie the calling of this Assembly of Divines The way of God wisely assumed by the prudence of the State I suppose you call it not the way of God as holding there is a cleare resolution from Scripture in any Apostolicall primitive patterne of the Churches erected by the Apostles of an Aââ¦embly so chosen by the Magistrates to draw up a govââ¦ment and direction in worship for so many Chââ¦s many of which Churchâ⦠have not so much as any one of their members there but onely a way of God according to generall rules and Prudence and so wisely assumed by the Parliament and yet I hope you and your party will not afterwards if the Assembly should determine against Independencie stile that the fatall errour to Reformation But how ever we gaine thus much from your being members of the Assembly voting in it and calling your selves by that name Members of the Assembly of Divines namely a cleare answer that humane prudence is not alwayes a fatall errour to Reformation and that a man needs not alwaies suspend his practise though he have not a cleare resolution of example or direction from the Primitive Churches witnesse the acceptance of your being chosen to the Assembly As to that Metaphoricall expression of yours the ground of your judging humane prudence so fatall to Reformation Least by sowing any peece of the old garment to the new you should make the rent worse I answer if that be not understood aright and soberly it hath been and will be the ground of great deformation in the Church and of running into errours on the right hand Thus the Anabaptists least they should sow any peece of the old garment unto the new renounce their Baptisme and the Brownists will have the materiall Churches pull'd downe and our Ministers and Congregations quite made null and all our Ministers and Congregations newly ordained and constituted The ground of which mistakes ariseth from not considering the difference between the gathering and planting a Church out of Iudaisme and Heathenisme and the purging and building up a Church corrupted and fallen As for that promise of encouragement made to such a suspension which you say in your publike Assemblies was for your comfort often mentioned you should have done well to have quoted the text and then I might have examined the place whether there had been a foundation for any such promise to a few persons in a particular Congregation withdrawing from the fellowship of other Churches and forbearing all things in matter of externall order though agreed upon by other Churches without a cleare resolution from Scripture example or direction that in so doing they should know more in the matter of order and government A second Principle we carried along with us in all our resolutions was not to make our present judgement and practise a binding law unto our selves for the future which we in like manner made continuall profession of upon all occasions We had too great an instance of our own frailty in the former way of our conformity and therefore in a jealousie of our selves we kept this reserve which we made open and constant professions of to alter and retract though not lightly what ever should be discovered to be taken up out of a mis-understanding of the rule Which principle we wish were next to
matters of greatest moment and controversie we still choose to practise safely and so as we had reason to judge that all sorts or the most of all the Churches did acknowledge warrantable although they make additaments thereunto To this third great principle of yours I answer 1. To it generally as you lay it downe here generally and afterwards more particularly to the instances and particulars brought by you to make it good In this principle you labour to cast an odium upon all the reformed Churches who differ from you dealing by them in such a medium and way as the Protestants doe by the Papists wheras we alleadge against the Papists that the Protestant Religion is via tuta and what we practise they themselves cannot but allow only they hold and practise over and above as namely they adde to Christs Righteousnesse their own in the point of Justification to Christs intercession the intercession of the Virgin Mary and Saints to prayers unto God prayers to Angels and Saints to the Scriptures the traditions of the Church to our Sacraments confest by themselves five others c. So here you say that you chose to practise safely and so as you had reason to judge other Churches did acknowledge warrantable but they make additaments and this you weave in all along in the particular instances under this head and it lyes upon them to prove what they adde over and above Now besides the great dissimilitude and difference of additaments in the things themselves between the Protestants and Papists and you and the reformed Churches the Papists additaments being in matters of faith and substance of worship but the matters excepted against by you being about outward government and order and that not so much about the things themselves the officers parts of worship but about the different manner and way of them as you acknowledge in your eighth pages and so you had no such cause to insinuate such matters against the reformed Churches yet consider that what you doe hold forth and take as your medium you have no good ground for which will appeare in three particulars and so your Apologie held forth unto the world is neither true nor just 1. I will demonstrate that in many matters of greatest moment and controversie you did not still choose to practise safely and so as you had reason to judge that all sorts or most of the Churches did acknowledge warrantable 2. That the reformed Churches practised more safely then you and did not make additaments as you charge them 3. That you in many Church practises have made additaments and superadditions and that in more materiall things then in such circumstances wherein you tax the reformed Churches For the first of these three Take these three Instances for the present 1. It is a matter of great moment and controversie to forsake the publike Assemblies which you confesse are true Churches and the body of Christ and to set up separated assemblies without and against the leave of the Magistrate Ministers and Churches This is by the judgment of all the godly and learned Divines of note both in other Churches and in our own condemned as unlawfull by Calvin Beza Peter Martyr Zanchius Bullinger Iunius Pareus Morneus Arnesius Voetius c. with Whitakers Brightman Perkins Cartwright Parker Banes Hildersham Ball. c. I could fill a booke with the testimonies of these and many others and I doe challenge the Separatists of all sorts whether them of the head-forme the Anabaptists or of the middle-forme the old Brownists or the lowest-forme the Semi-Separatists to give me any precept or allowed example of such a practise out of the Primitive patterne shew it me and I will yeild the cause As for that place Rev. 18. 4. you professe against that in your 6 t page of having any thoughts of our Churches or Ministers to be Antichristian and Babilonish I could alledge many Scriptures against this practise Iude v. 19 c. The Apostles who were sent by Christ into the world to make Disciples and to bring men from Judaisme and Heathenisme to beleeve in Christ and to plant Churches of such yet they never taught nor practised to gather and separate some Christians from the rest one part of the Church from the other to goe constitute a purer Church neither in Corinth Philippi c. Although there were many corruptions and many loose persons But Paul taught and practised to censure and cast out evill persons but in case those who had power neglected their duty he never taught the godly to separate from the Lords Supper celebrated in the publike Assemblies much lesse for a few to withdraw from their Pastours and other brethren and to set up new Churches of themselves You are Schollers and well read in the Scriptures shew me but any such direction from the Apostles and I am yours 2. It is a matter of moment and controversie the right making and calling of the Ministers of the Gospell now all the reformed Churches according to the examples of Scripture hold Ministers are not to be made by the people alone and that the people have not power of Ordination and Imposition of hands but the Presbyters and yet you have practised the being cal'd and made Ministers by the people without the Imposition of hands of the preaching Presbyters 3. It is a matter of great moment and controversie whether private Christians who were never trained up in Arts and learning nor intended the Ministery may in the publike Congregation Prophesie which Prophesying as it is not practised by the Reformed Churches so by most of them it is not counted warrantable and yet you allowed it in your Churches to which I might adde more instances but that the book would swell into too great a volume To the second head it is evident the rââ¦formed Churchs practised more safely as in declining your way in the last mentioned Instances in not permitting such as are Lay-men to preach or prophesie in not forsaking true Churches or true Ministery for the mixture of wicked men but rather casting out such who after admonition continue impenitent so in other practises practising as the Apostles receiving men into their fellowship without any such curious inquirie and long detention sending men from one to another and requiring such preparatives and conditions to Church-fellowship as your Churches have done The wayes and practises the reformed Churches walked in were the good old way knowne and beaten for some score of yeares in which so many great lights and godly people have walkt and so more safe then bie and new wayes that a few men but of yesterday have taken up and have not yet well aired much lesse digested And in the name of other reformed Churches France Holland Scotland I deny the things you charge them with to be additaments or to be properly so called for if the particulars instanced in by you will be found to have a footing in the Scriptures and practised
aââ¦itted to fellowship with you in the Lords Supper whether would you have admitted us Now to that passage of yours in the close of this first instance and Churches made up of such we were sure no Protestant could but approve of c. This goes upon the mistake observed by me before That the question in controversie about Church-members is not nor cannot be meant Whether Churches made up of such members as all account faithfull be by all Protestants approved of to be true Churches with whom communion may be held But whether communion may not be held with such Churches and such received into communion and fellowship of Churches whom many Churches especially yours and those of the Church-way doe not upon your principles acknowledge true and fit matter And in this I am sure all Protestants of note are against you and for us accounting such visible Churches as you here instance in an Utopia holding it Donatisme and Anabaptisme and when the Papists doe in their writings father upon them such a visible Church as you dreame of and such principles as you hold they disclaime it as learned Whitakers it being the constant opinion of all the great Protestant Divines Calvin Luther Zanchius Iunius c. That the visible Church of Christ consists of good and bad resembled therefore to a field net floore where chasse as well as good graine c. Againe concerning the great ordinance of publike Prayer and the Liturgie of the Church whereas there is this great controversie upon it about the lawfulnesse of set-formes prescribed we practised without condemning others what all sides doe allow and themselves doe practise also that the publicke prayers in our Assemblies should be framed by the meditations and studie of our owne Ministers out of their owne gifts the fruits of Christs Ascension as well as their Sermons use to be This we were sure all allowed of though they super-added the other To this 2d Instance concerning the great ordinance of publicke prayer and the Liturgie of the Church I shall give you one Answer after another following you according to your expressions upon it wherein I finde you like your selves in the other precedent parts in generals and in the darke so as few Readers can tell by your Narration here what you hold and practise about publike prayer 1. Wheras you say There is this great controversie upon it about the lawfulnesse of set-formes prescribed I must tell you this great controversie upon it is raised onely by your selves and the Brownists there being no Divines nor no Reformed Churches that I know of but doe allow the lawfull use of set-formes of prayer composed and framed by others as by Synods and Assemblies and doe make use of such sometimes as the Churches of France and Holland in the administration of Sacraments usually doe and those who practise them not so much yet at least hold them lawfull And I challenge you in all your reading to name one Divine of note and Orthodox that ever held set-formes of prayer prescribed unlawfull excepting only Independents 2. What understand you by set-formes prescribed whether prayers onely made and framed by others As suppose by an Assembly or Synod but yet not imposed or whether prayers composed by others and then prescribed and required by authoritie to be used Now if you say you understand it in the second sence that you question the lawfulnesse of that but not in the first I aske you whether you will practise and doe hold it lawfull to use in your Assemblies Prayers made and framed by others As suppose a directory for worship which I the rather aske you because your words afterwards hinted as the ground for your owne practise and against the practises of the Reformed Churches speake against all set-formes of prayer composed by others That the publike prayers in our Assemblies should be framed by the meditations and studie of our owne Ministers out of their owne gifts which reacheth to all prayers framed by other men though they be left at libertie to use or not use them And further this argument of yours speakes only against formes of prayer as in the first sence but speaks not at all to it as imposed and enjoyned but let your expressions of set-formes of prayer prescribed be taken in the second sence yet I am readie to maintaine against you that set-formes of Prayer lawfull for their materials and establisht by a lawfull power to be used in the publick Assemblies may lawfully be practised by Ministers and the people safely joyne in them 3. As I askt of you in what sence you tooke set-formes prescribed so I desire to know whether in the questioning of the lawfulnesse of set-formes of prayer you understand onely formes of prayer framed by men and Ministers in the Church or whether not also prayers recorded in the Scriptures as for instance the Lords prayer whether ever you practise the use of that in your Assemblies which question I make because I never heard that any of you five ever used the Lords prayer either in your owne Assemblies or in ours nor indeed that any of your way did it being now made by many a note of a Formalist Now if you account the use of it lawfull considering the great offence the totall disuse of it gives to many and how it hinders the word to many considering that Scripture with other like 1 Cor. 10. 32. I wonder how you dare neglect it and by the way let me tell you that 1 Cor. 10. 32. is stronger to command you the use of the Lords prayer then for what it is alleadged by you in the 17. page namely for your principle of submission of Churches c. And I propound to you further whether if some other prayers word for word recorded in the Scriptures should be put into a directorie you would use them As also whether you would practise the reading of set Psalmes and Chapters appointed out for you 4. As for the practising your owne prayers without condemning others I answer that is not so 1. Because you bring many arguments against set-formes of prayer framed by others and prescribed that amount to a condemnation in a high nature terming such prayers will-worship inventions of men as is evident both by Manuscripts and by printed Discourses of Mr Davenports M. Cottons M. Nyes 2. You with-drew from our Sacraments and publicke Assemblies upon this ground and have drawne many away with you and have set up new Churches But it may be you will in this Narration have this evasion that though you condemne the practise yet not all the persons that use them you doe not condemne them as ungodly I answer no more doe the rigid Brownists nor Anabaptists who yet condemne sufficiently our Churches and our prayers and yours too for they acknowledge both you and us to have eminent personall graces 5. As to that Argument brought by you for conceived prayers but against set-formes made by
other men I briefly suggest these following things to you and the Reader 1. That by your owne concession set formes of prayer are not unlawfull because they be set and framed before hand and not conceived suddenly wherein you grant that the publicke prayers in the Assemblies may be premeditated framed and studied before hand as well as Sermons which concession takes off one of the strongest Arguments used against set-formes of prayer 2. I answer it is not against the fruites of Christs ascension into Heaven and of giving gifts unto men for the Ministery that they doe not alwayes in all their prayers exercise their own gifts of invention and composall of prayer for so the using of the Lords prayer should be unlawfull at any time for the Ministers which is no prayer framed out of their owne meditations and studie and their owne gifts 3. I answer there is a great dissimilitude in many respects betweene Sermons and prayers so that it will not hold though Sermons ought to be framed alwaies out of our owne gifts that therefore prayers alwayes should be And this I will demonstrate in a Discourse of the lawfulnesse of using set-formes of prayer composed by others 4. It is not against the fruit of Christs ascension nor the gifts given then for Ministers in some instructions and teachings of the people to make use of some thing sometimes in publike either doctrinall or practicall not framed out of their owne gifts but by others As suppose the reading in the Congregation to the people often some confession of faith or some exhortation about maine things of use to them having still the free use of their giftsto preach besides 5. Suppose you five should joyne together out of your owne meditations and studies exercising your owne gifts to frame publicke prayers of maine petitions needfull for the state of all your Churches whether might they be used by you in your publick Assemblies 6. Whether each of you by your selves framing upon meditation and studie a set-forme of prayer may not use that often in your Assemblies without sinne having also your liberty to adde conceived prayers at the same time But to put all out of question about the second instance I judge that set formes of prayer prescribed taken in both senses that is neither made nor framed out of the gifts of the persons who use them nor left at liberty but by publike consent agreed upon to be used are not unlawfull to be practised but the Scriptures give us examples for such prayers as in 2 Chron. 29. 30. Moreover Hezekiah the King and the Princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the Lord with the words of David and of Asaph the Seer and they sang praises with gladnesse and they bowed their heads and worshipped And therefore the use of set formes of prayer framed and composed by others and prescribed having example in Scripture as well as conceived are no additament nor superaddition but the reformed Churches in practising both practise most safely according to Scripture patternes and your Churches using only one sort and not the other leave to follow examples recorded in Scripture and we may more justly cast upon you the taking away from Scripture taking away being a like branded by Scripture as adding But you doe unjustly cast upon the reformed Churches adding to the word the Scriptures holding out examples for both And for the further clearing your mistakes in this great ordinance of publike prayer I shall only adde this all that God hath commanded either in the old Testament or new about publike prayer is that prayers be made in the publike Assemblies and that those prayers be of petitions for their matter and kind lawfull according unto the will of God directed unto God alone in the Name of Christ with humility fervency faith and such like but that God hath required that as oft as Ministers pray they must put up prayers framed by their own meditations and studies out of their own gifts and that the words and phrases must be various and diversified or else their prayers are not lawfull there is never such a sillable to proove it in the Scripture But we have examples of both namely set and conceived and Gods servants used both indifferently and we may use both according as we see occasion and as we find may make most for edification and Gods glory And I desire you in your Reply to this Answer to give any instance to the contrary and I shall thanke you for I seek truth and peace and not victory nor contention And let me mind you whilst you goe about in this instance to cleare your selves of additaments you are in this and other instances guilty of taking away from the Word falling short as in other things practising above what is written besides your different way of practising in some things So likewise for the government and discipline in the Churches however the practise of the reformed Churches is in greater matters to governe each particular Congregation by a combined Presbytery of the Elders of severall Congregations united in one for government yet so as in their judgments they allow especially in some cases a particular Congregation an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction to be exercised by the Elders thereof within it selfe Yea and our owne Mr Cartwright holy Baynes and other old Non-conformists place the power of excommunication in the Eldership of each particular Church with the consent of the Church untill they doe miscarry and then indeed they doe subject them to such Presbyteriall and Provinciall Assemblies as the proper refuge for appeales and for compounding of differences amongst Churches which combination of Churches others of them therefore call Ecclesiae ortae but particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae as wherein firstly the power and priviledge of a Church is to be exercised And withall we could not but imagine that the first Churches planted by the Apostles were ordinarily of no more in one City at first then might make up one entire Congregation ruled by their own Elders that also preached to them for that in every City where they came the number of converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations or that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyteriall combination we did not imagine We found also those non-conformists that wrote against the Episcopall government in their answer to the arguments used for Episcopall government over many Churches brought from the instances of the multitude of believers at Ierusalem and other places and Cities mentioned in the new Testament to assert that it would not be infallibly proved that any of those we read of in the Acts and elsewhere were yet so numerous as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation in those first times We found it also granted by them all
that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation who had power over them in the Lord and we judged that all those precepts obey your Elders and them that are over you were to be sure and all grant it meant of the Pastors and Teachers and other Elders that were set over them in each particular Congregation respectively and to be as certainely the intendment of the holy Ghost as in those like commands Wives obey your own husbands Servants your own Governours to be meant of their severall families respectively We could not therefore but judge it a safe and an allowed way to retaine the government of our severall Congregations for matters of discipline within themselves to be exercised by their own Elders whereof we had for the most part of the time we were abroad three at least in each Congregation whom we were subject to yet not claiming to our selves an independent power in every Congregation to give account or be subject to none others but only a full and entire power compleate within our selves untill we should be challenged to erre grossely such as Corporations enjoy who have the power and priviledge to passe sentence for life and death within themselves and yet are accountable to the State they live in But that it should be the institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seate of Church power over each Congregation so combined or that they could challenge and assume that authority over those Churches they feed and teach not ordinarily by vertue of those fore-mentioned Apostolicall precepts was to us a question and judged to be an additament unto the other which therefore rested on those that allowed us what we practised over and above to make evident and demonstrate and certainely of all other the challenge of all spirituall power from Christ had need have a cleare pattent to shew for it Yea we appeale further unto them that have read books whether untill those later writings of the two Reverend and Learned Divines of Scotland set forth after our returne nor much more then two yeares since and others of no elder date from Holland and one of our own Divines more lately Written with much learning and ingenuity there hath been much settly and directly or with strength insisted on to prove that government and although assert and inculcate it they doe as their opinions yet the full strength and streame of our non-conformists Writings and others are spent rather in arguments against and for the overthrowing the Episcopall government and the corruptions that cleave to our Worship and in maintaining those severall Officers in Churches Which Christ hath instituted in stead thereof in which we fully agree with them then in the proofe of a combined classicall Presbyteriall government as it is authoritatively practised in the most reformed Churches Before I give a full answer to your third and last instance of the government and discipline in the Churches I premise this that in all the differences between you and us in the principles and practises of the visible Church and government of it you give but three instances only wherein you practise more safely then the reformed Churches although you make such a great principle and matter of it in the eleventh page yet there are many things besides these three wherein you practise differently from all reformed Churches as in the way of gathering and constituting Churches in the way of making Ministers in the power you give the people in Church government cum multis alijs why did you in this Narration passe by these Is it not either because you were not willing to tell all you hold and practise the time being not yet come to open all your way and principles which is one of the things I blame you for your reservednesse in keeping back so great a part shewing us only the fairest side of that wherein you differ or else if you had thought fit to have related them you in your own wisedomes questioned whether those other particulars wherein you differ would bare so faire a glosse as of practising most safely and of fastning the odium of additaments so well upon the reformed Churches as these three instances you give And I might here take an occasion to shew further how the reformed Churches practised more safely on both hands then you neither adding not taking away and so I might strongly retort this whole third principle of yours back upon you but that may suffice I have already hinted of it Now for this third and last instance of your walking safely but fastning additaments in government and discipline on the reformed Churches this being laid downe so largely as that it is a third part of your book within a very little beginning in the twelfth page and continuing to the end of the one and twentieth page containing in it many various things I must therefore because of the intermixture of persons and things in this part of your Narration more then in any other going forward and backward up and downe that I may let nothing escape of moment I shall endeavour to draw out the severall ends of these twined threds and entangled discourse and to wind them up upon their severall bottomes by reducing this part of your Narrative to these following heads whereon I may more distinctly fasten my answers both for yours and the Readers better satisfaction 1. You relate what the reformed Churches doe practise and allow as also what our old non-conformists granted and what your selves allow and grant about a Church and the government of it 2. You relate what you disallow and are not satisfied in 3. You couch some arguments and reasons for your own way and practise and against the practise of the reformed Churches 4. You answer a common objection brought against your way by laying down the principles that you hold in such a case as also by relating your practise occasioned upon an offence committed in one of your Churches 5. Upon this answer you make a comparison between the effectualnesse of your way in what you hold and practise and what the Presbyterians hold to reduce Churches and to compose differences in which comparison you make the scales to fall on your side rather Now the Reader must expect here as in other passages of this Narration generall doubtfull darke partiall and reserved relations with mistating the questions which in my answers I shall observe and point at all along To the first of these five heads wherein also are three particulars To the first of these concerning the reformed Churches namely what they practise and allow I answer you should have done well to have instanced their practises what were the greater matters governed in common by the Presbyterie of severall Congregations and what were the lesser matters wherein each particular Congregation was governed by their particular Elders As also what were those cases wherein the reformed
Churches allow particular Congregations such an entire and compleate power to be exercised by the Elders within themselves and wherein not such a particular Narration would have carried in the face of it some ground for the defference of their practise and allowance might have served to have pointed out the differences between your way and theirs But secondly As you relate the way and discipline of the reformed Churches it sounds somewhat harsh and strange that their practise should be one way and their judgements another their practise to governe each particular Congregation by a combined Presbyterie of the Elders of severall Congregations united in one for government and yet in their judgements to allow especially in some cases a particular Congregation and entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within it selfe Doe they practise one way and allow another way or doe they hold both wayes the wayes of God or what is it you meane in this Narration of those Churches or can it be meant in the same sense and acception to practise one thing and yet allow another or will you make the lesser matters practised in their particular Churches by their own Elders to be the same with some cases wherein they allow particular Congregations an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within themselves Now the latter namely in some cases cannot be meant for then this last part is no more then the first neither can your words of an entire compleate power of jurisdiction in the particular Congregations be meant of smaller matters but of the greatest matters in some cases You shall doe well in your reply to english these lines about the difference of the reformed Churches practises in greater matters and their different judgements in some cases and shew us in what sense they meane it and whether it can be properly and truly alledged for your case of entire and compleate power in your Congregations Thirdly This which you here relate of the reformed Churches practise and allowance is fallaciously set downe and for your own advantage meerely to make out this third principle that you still chose to practise safely namely what the reformed Churches allowed and acknowledged warrantable onely they superadded Presbyteriall combinations whereas the reformed Churches doe not as you well know in the case and question controverted between them and you allow particular Congregations in a Kingdome and nation conceiving the reformed Religion to have an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within themselves what may be in some of their books in extraordinary or speciall cases where there is but one particular Congregation in a Countrey or the like that is nothing to the point in hand it being laid for a common ground by them all that every particular Church in a Nation or Kingdom is not to be left to it selfe but that there is a necessity of a common nationall government to preserve all the Churches in unity and peace And to cleare the reformed Churches of France Holland Scotland from what you say they allow I doe not find in their books of discipline and platformes of Church government by which we must judge of their judgements nor in their practises that they doe allow an entire and compleate power to be exercised by the Elders of every Congregation alone either in the making or ordaining of Ministers or in deposing their Ministers or in drawing up a forme of doctrine worship and discipline for themselves they allow power of admonition suspension from the Lords Supper and of taking up lesser differences by the particular Eldership and if I forget not the Churches of France only practise excommunication by the Elders in particular Congregations without carrying it at first higher but then if we consider that in those Churches of France their Elderships goe upon certaine fixed rules in there excommunications laid down in their books of discipline who if they proceed otherwise are liable to censure themselves and their being appeales to Synods and Assemblies and all being carried in reference and dependance to Assemblies the case is very different now if the Churches of your way and communion in old England and in New would yeeld to have a government fixt and setled by Synods and Assemblies establisht also by the Magistrates upon which Rules and Orders they should proceed in the way of making Ministers and that such errors in doctrine and such evill manners ought to be the subject of excommunication and then agree upon appeales to Synods and Assemblies then there would be lesse dangââ¦r in such an entire and compleate power in particular Congregations To the second particular under this first head namely what some of the old non-conformists grant placing the power of excommunication in the Eldership of each particular Church untill they doe miscarry and then indeed subjââ¦cting them to Presbytââ¦riall and Provinciall Assemblies and that it could not be infallibly prooved that any of the Churches recorded in the new Testament were so numerous as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregatïon And that both the Ministers of the reformed Churches and our non-conformists all granted that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation who had power over them in the Lord I answer as followes For Mr Cartwright you not quoting which of his books you have reference to and so not knowing which to turne to to find out what you assert of him I shall not deny it but as for Mr Baynes Diocesans Tryall which is the only booke I ever heard of wherein he handles these points he doth in the third question give the Ecclesiasticall power and the exercise of it to a united multitude of Presbyters in which booke howsoever as intending his booke against Diocesan Bishops and Diocesan Churches to whom all Presbyters and Churches stand in subjection and subordination he pleads against them for the power of the particular Elders in the severall Congregations yet as against the reformed Churches practise namely of a Presbyteriall Church consisting of many particular Congregations and ruled by the Elders of severall Congregations combined he pleadeth not but expressely in answer made to those two objections from the Churches and Elders where there is a co-ordination and a communiââ¦y in government as in the Low Countries and at Géneva he grants the thing contended for against your Congregationall way even before miscarrying and shewes thâ⦠great difference between the Diocesan government and the Presbyteriall in severall particulars and answers your objections which you commonly make of a forraigne extrinsicall power And for your better satisfaction reade and compare together the passages in these pages of Mr Baynes Diocesans Tryall page 21 page 11. What is meant by a Diocesan Church and in the 12th page two first conclusions agreed in and in the 16th page And for the non-conformists in their writings against the Episcopall government and Diocesan Churches though they put the Bishops their adversaries all they could to it to make them proove
a particular Church exceeding the number of them who may ordinarily meet together in one place for the worshipping of God and the sanctification of the Lords-day which if it can be proved overthrowes M. Robinsons M. Cottons definitions of Churcheâ⦠and your principles who all keepe to this as to a foundation upon which is built many of your other practises For we know at first the Church of Ierusalem and other Churches were not more numerous then to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation neither could it be expected that all should come in at first and we know for many other Churches the Scriptures doe not so particularly relate the growth and accessions of them But if any one instance can be given it is not materiall whether first or last sooner or later whether in the beginning middle or end of the story for then your Positions and assertions of a particular visible Church are overthrowne for one affirmative overthrowes a universall negative And I aske of you whether you take ordinarily here as opposed to extraordinary or take ordinarily for commonly as opposed to rarely and seldome now if you meane it in the first sence that the Church of Ierusalem and other Churches that may be instanced in their case was extraordinary and though the Apostles suffered them to grow so ranke and numerous yet we may not doe so now I desire to know of you then what is become of your first generall rule the Primitive patternes of Churches erected by the Apostles and I desire to know what rââ¦le you walke by and whether the first constituted Church of all were not likely to be the patterne for constituted Churches seeing Primum in unoquoque genere est regula mensura reliquorum But if you meane ordinarily in the second sence as that there is but one only instance the most if not all other Churches were otherwise that you see will not by what I have above written helpe you besides what ever you can probably alleadge that the Churches of these times should be conformed to such Churches which consisted of no greater number then to make one particular Congregation I will give more and better why the Churches of a Nation and kingdome should be conformed to that of Hierusalem As for those phrases of yours which you bring in by way of caution and clearing the way of your government within your selves that you claime not an Independent power to give no account or be subject to none others but onely a full and entire power compleate within your selves untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely Whilest in these first lines you denie Independent power in words yet in your latter words you grant it claiming a full and entire power compleate within your selves which is Independent power and is the full sence of that which hath been fasten'd on you by us and I will shew it more fully in the proper place when I come to the 23. page especially if you take upon you to enjoy it so long untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely I had thought it had been enough upon your being challenged to erre to have given an account but belike it must be erring grossely I suspect something lyes under this as under many other of your phrases whereby you evade and hide your selves stating points wrongfully Pray what doe you account erring grossely and whether doe you judge any thing erring grosly in your particular Churches but such kinds of sins in manners and such kind of opinions as are against the Churches knowne light and the common received practises and principles of Christianitie professed by the Churches themselves and universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches and no other sinnes to be the ground of giving an account as they are not of Excommunication with you page 9. both being of equall latitude sins of particular persons to a Church and the sins of a particular Church to a Communitie of Churches and if that be your meaning you shall be Independent enough And then further I demand of you how you can use those phrases of not claiming a power to be subject to none others I confesse you may better use those words of giving account holding counselling and advising by sister-Churches but as for that phrase of subjecting to none others I understand it not what censure will your Churches subject unto from other Churches will they yeeld to the deposition of their Ministers Excommunication of their members c. or how can there be any subjection to other Churches in your principles the phrase being taken properly and usually when as all along you pleade against authoritative Presbyteriall power so oft exprest in page 15 16. and is the great point in controversie in this instance betwixt you and the Presbyterians How oft doe you denie the subjection of a particular Church to all other Churches and are against all subjecting to censures yea to be subjected as to counsell and advices from the other Churches As to that phrase your owne Elders whereof you had three at least in each Congregation whom you were subject to in which you seeme to hold out the government and power of the Church to lie in the Elders and not in the body of the Congregation I desire you to satisfie me in this point whether all of you hold the power and authoritie to be in the Elders or in the Church and whether by goe tell the Church is meant tell the Elders or the bodie of the Congregation and whether according to the principles of the Church-way in M. Robinsons workes and the bookes of New-England and M. Bridges owne letter unlesse some of you have lately seene another light you might have truly written three Elders at least in every Congregation to whom the Congregations were subject or else three Elders who were subject to their owne Congregations and this shall suffice for answer to the first head of the five concerning the third Instance To the second head under this third instance what you are not satisfied in nor cannot allow 1. About particular visible Churches That you could not imagine in every City where the Apostles came the number of the converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations 2. About the government of it that it should be the institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seat of Church power over each Congregation so combined or that they could challenge and assume that authoritie over those Churches they teach not c. In both these you deale fallaciously and relate the controversie to your advantage and our disadvantage For the first whereas had you dealt ingenuously your words should have been these for that in any Citie where the Apostles came the number of converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations you
put it in every Citie which we affirme not nor need not to carry the cause against you for if we can prove it in some Cities or in any Cities that the number of Converts did arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations then we prove the Scripture holds out a Presbyteriall Classicall Church and overthrow your grand principle about a particular Church And Reader observe the fallacie of these Apologists how in the manner of their expression and as they propound it though the thing may be true yet they alter quite the state of the Question For though in every Citie where the Apostles came you could not imagine the number of Converts should be so great nor we neither yet in some Cities you might have well imagined it as in Ierusalem and Rome But Brethren why will you who are Schollers and without question weighed well all your words and manner of expressions having so many heads in the framing this Apologie deale thus with the Reader in a Narration speake truly though you did not imagine the number of Converts were so many in every City yet did not you imagine the number might be so great in some Cities as in Ierusalem and if still you will not imagine it for the helping of your imagination consider whether you have not more reason if not infallible and necessary yet probable and rationall to imagine the Church of Hiââ¦rusalem consisting of so many thousands of people and having so many Ministers to preach unto them as 12. Apostles besides the seventy Disciples and they meeting in so many distinct houses and not having the power and command of any publicke large place or liberty through those times to fit it for such multitudes to heare the word joyne in prayer and Sacraments should have severall and sundry Congregations rather then to imagine all those should make but one standing Congregation to meet in one place and roome 2. It is stated otherwise carried higher then need be granted and that in all your expressions of it for the Scriptures may hold forth a combination of the Elders of many Churches for government and yet not be the Institution of Christ or his Apostles It may be allowed and agreeable to the word have a jus divinum permissivum upon generall rules of the word and according to the rules of the law of nature and of Prudence yea and may have some examples of it and yet not amount to a divine Institution many who hold the thing will not in those phrases owne it 2. These Elders of many Congregations may have a power of Government in common over all and yet not be the first seat of Church-power for it is not denied but some particular Congregations having a competent number of Presbyters both have and may exercise Church-power before any such combination is or can be 3. These Elders combined may have Church-power to rule these Congregations so combined and yet not have a compleate and entire seat of Church-power but a power liable to appeales unto Synods and generall Assemblies The question betweene you and us is whether Classes or Presbyteries have power in Ecclesiasticall matters as Ordination Excommunication c. within the number of Congregations so combined or may by warrant from the word exercise any power in Church matters but in their owne particular Congregations the question is not whether it be the Institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seat of Church power As you state it you strangely mistate the question to lay it downe in these words That the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first seat of Church-power over each Congregation so combined whereas the opinion of the Reformed Churches is quite contrary not holding Classes and Synods to be the first subject of Church-power from whence it is consequently derived and conferred upon particular Churches but that particular congregations having power in themselves and amongst themselves equall power doe in Classes and Synods conferre and execute in common their owne power even as those who are colleagues and equall members of some politicall societie 4. The power which particular officers and Presbyters of combined congregations may have over particular members of those Churches they teach not ordinarily doth not amount to the challenging and assuming an authority over those Churches they feed and teach not your expression is a mistake it is not an assuming a power and authority by some over other Churches but it is a power of the whole and of themselvs too even those particular Churches in their officers over particular members as in the Parliament no member hath power over another more then another over him but the whol hath power over all the particulars for the clearing of which the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland speake fully in their Reformation of Church government in Scotland cleared page 24 25. And for the close of this second head wherein you stand upon what you are not satisfied in but disallow if you would impartially consider that the Scriptures in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles doe as well hold out grounds yea and more indubitable as I shall make evident in a particular Tractate of the visible Church that the first particular Churches planted by the Apostles consisted of more Congregations and distinct meeting places then of one only Congregation you will acknowledge that where there are many Presbyters to feed and rule and many more Christians living in a vicinity then can meet in one place it is not the most safe and allowed way to retaine the government of each Congregation thus within themselves neither that it is an additament in the reformed Churches to practise so but rather an additament on their part who living in a City where the number of beleevers are so numerous as to make many meeting places there to make these places and persons such distinct Churches as to manage all things each one within themselves and not to grow into one for government And I am so farre versed in these controversies that I challenge you five to give me an example of any City where it is probable the multitude of beleevers were so numerous as to make many meeting places that ever they were governed and ruled but in common or ever called Churches but Church still called the Church of Corinth and the Church of Ierusalem I foresee only one instance that can be probably alledged that in Rom. 16. 1. of the Church which is at Cenchrea which Cenchrea was a part of Corinth and neare to Corinth yet named a Church as well as the Church of Corinth but the insufficiencie of that ground I shall at large shew in that Tractate of the visible Church which Primitive practise hath so farre wrought with some of the reformed Churches as those of Holland that in great Cities where the number of their people
as they see just ground the controversie were at an end 4. The Corporations that is those in place and power if they proceed unjustly are accountable to the State they live in that is to a higher civill power and adjudged themselves in cases of wrong condemning the innocent suffering delinquents to escape but your Corporations of particular Congregations even in case of reall Administration are against all judging and all Ecclesiasticall Authoritative power out of your own Congregations To the fifth Reason hinted by you to strengthen your practise that it was safe and allowed and the Reformed Churches more questionable namely appealing to them who have read books whether much hath been written with strength setly and directly to prove that government but rather to overthrow Episcopall and to maintaine those severall Officers in Churches which Christ hath instituted and therefore you inferre you might have more ground to question this government of combined classicall Presbyteriall government I answer the ground of that is fully laid down in the Reformation of the Church of Scotland page 17 and 18. with an account of what hath been written and done by the reformed Churches in France for the Presbyteriall way and against the popular Independent way which is more then you once in this Reason hinted but suppose that in former writings of Calvin Beza Zanchius Peter Martyr Danaeus Iunius Zeppââ¦rus Gersom Bucerus Dr Reynolds Parker there hath not been much setly and directly insisted on and with strength to prove the government of Synods and Classes though in some of these more especially as against the Church of Rome and Episcopall government much strength is brought for the government by Synods and Classes yet that which those Divines of Scotland Holland England have written of late against the Independent congregationall government might have been enough to have satisfied you and that 's not materiall that no more have written seeing out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established and if these books had not strength to satisfie you why have not you all this while answered them but I must mind you of forgetting one of your own Divines for besides the learned Licensers booke against Independencie another booke was written cald Reasons against the Independent government of particular Congregations and the Toleration of them in this Kingdome which booke in your seeming to take no notice of I beleeve you remember above the rest and in the 25 page of your Apologie it appeares you remember it but the Authour of it belike is none of your Divines And in the close now of this answer to your Reasons hinted about the government and discipline of the Church why you in your Congregationall way should be in the truth but the Presbyteriall government was a question to you and judged an additament because the Presbyterians allowed you what you practised and granted what you held but themselves held and practised over and above I answer this is no Argument at all for by the same reason the Samaritans should have worshipped God truly but the Iewes falsely and the Samaritans might have said to the Iewes as you doe to the Presbyterianns the five books of Moses which we owne to be sure they are from God you acknowledge them but for the books of the Prophets that 's a question which rests upon you that allow what we hold to make evident and demonstrate and so the Iews may now by the same reason speake against the Christians and say we are in the safer way to be sure we practise safely for you Christians confesse what we hold namely Moses and the Prophets to be the Scriptures but for the new Testament that is to us a question and an additament which therefore rests upon you Christians to make good who beleeve and practise over and above us And whereas the common prejudice and exception laid into all mens thoughts against us and our opinions is that in such a Congregationall government thus entire within it selfe there is no allowed sufficient remedy for miscarriages though never so grossâ⦠no reliefe for wrongfull sentences or persons injured thereby no roome for complaints no powerfull or effectuall meanes to reduce a Church or Churches that fall into heresie schisme c. but every one is left and may take liberty without controule to doe what is good in their own eyes we have through the good providence of God upon us from the avowed declarations of our judgements among our Churches mutually during our exile and that also confirmed by the most solemne instance of our practise wherewith to vindicate our selves and way in this particular which upon no other occasion we should ever have made thus publike God so ordered it that a scandall and offence fell out between those very Churches whilst living in this banishment whereof we our selves that write these things were then the Ministers one of our Churches having unhappily deposed one of their Ministers the other judged it not only as too sudden an act having proceeded in a matter of so great moment without ââ¦nsulting their sister Churches as was publikely professed we should have done in such cases of concernment but also in the proceedings thereof as too severe and not managed according to the rules laid downe in the word In this case our Churches did mutually and universally acknowledge and submit to this as a sacred and undoubted principle and supreame law to be observed among all Churches that as by vertue of that Apostolicall command Churches as well as particular men are bound to give no offence neither to Iew nor Gentile nor the Churches of God they live amongst So that in all cases of such offence or difference by the obligation of the Common Law of communion of Churches and for the vindication of the glory of Christ which in common they holdforth the Church or Churches challenged to offend or differ are to submit themselves upon the challenge of the offence or complaint of the person wronged to the most full and open triall and examination by other neighbour Churches offended thereat of what ever hath given the offence And further that by vertue of the same and like law of not partaking in other mens sins the Churches offended may and ought upon the impenitencie of those Churches persisting in their errour and miscarriage to pronounce that heavy sentence against them of with-drawing and renouncing all Christian communion with them untill they doe repent And further to declare and protest this with the causes thereof to all other Churches of Christ that they may doe the like And what further authority or proceedings purely Ecclesiasticall of one or many sister Churches towards another whole Church or Churches offending either the Scriptures doe holdforth or can rationally be put in execution without the Magistrates interposing a power of another nature unto which we upon his particular cognisance and examination of such causes professe ever to submit and also to
exception laid into all mens thoughts against your Congregationall way it 's both a just and strong Argument against it and that which many of your way when it hath been objected to them have confessed there is no remedy nor help in such cases but advice and counsell all must be left to Christ Christ will take care of his own way they had not found out this allowed sufficient remedy for miscarriages which you have here propounded but I shall labour to make evident that all you bring by way of answer in declaration of your judgements and practise doth not satisfie this objection And first for your judgements in the principles you hold and lay downe I shall endeavour to prove that you have no Scripture grounds nor Primitive patterns for such principles and such a way in such cases Secondly Besides that these principles have no footing in Scripture and so they are no allowed remedy for miscarriages c. are not nor will not be a sufficient remedy for miscarriages nor reliefe for wrongfull sentences nor powerfull effectuall meanes to reduce a Church c. For the first I shall take it for granted you being wise men that in such a point as this being the maine point of difference betwen you and the Presbterians and at such a time as this you would bring the strongest Scriptures and grounds you had for your sacred principle and supreame law to be observed among all Churches namely of submission of Churchrs and for that other principle of pronouncing that heavy sentence of non-communion against a Church or Churches and if I can shew the invalidity and weaknesse of these brought by you a man may conclude ther 's no feare of what 's behind Now a man would wonder that wise men as you are should except against a government received so generally amongst the reformed Churchââ¦s and blessed so from Heaven in the effectualnesse of it for the space of so many yeares as a sufficient remedy not only to reduce men from heresies and schisme but to prevent Churches from falling into heresie schisme c. which is more and goe set up a new way so different and so distastfull to the reformed Churches and all upon pretences of no sound proofe in Scripture for such a government because there is not an Apostolicall direction either in example or precept for it and in the meane time to contend for such a government wherein yourselves cannot deny but hath fallen out strange miscarriages and you tell us an unhappy story for proofe and yet the way and course you have substituted for remedy hath neither example nor precept in the word of God to practise any title of all that you relate to us and besides that the course prescribed by you is not commanded in the word it is no whit so rationall nor conducible to the ends you appoint it for as we will shew presently Now for the Scriptures brought by you the first is 1 Cor. 10. 32. Give none offence neither to the Iewes nor to the Gentiles nor to the Church of God where first the Reader may observe you alter the text putting Churches of God instead of Church of God and then you adde they live amongst The alteration I suppose you make upon this ground for feare this text in the reading of it should hint that truth how the visible Church in Scripture is taken for more then one particular Congregation the addition they live amongst to make it a seeming ground for Churches in a vicinitie whereas the Apostle speakes of the Church of God generally all the Churches whether we live amongst them or farre from them and the scope of the Apostle in this place is upon the occasion of that particular offence which might arise to some Corinthians from eating meat sacrificed to Idols having been told that this is sacrificed to Idols to lay down a generall rule to all Christians against giving offence to any whether Jewes Gentiles or Christians under which three ranks all men then in those times were comprehended Now pray tell me how will you make this text to prove that Churches offending and distering among themselves must submit themselves to the most full and open triall and examination of other neighbour Churches offended and how will you from this place draw ouâ⦠a power for neighbour Churches to send unto and require this of the Churches who have offended them This Scripture if all Interpreters understand it that I have consulted with layes downe a rule that every particular Christian and so all Christians must so walke as to become all things to all men to please all men in all things lawfull as the 33 verse interprets it and to give none offence But where doth this Scripture speake and how doth it affirme that if either Churches or particular Christians doe practise things that offend other Churches they who are offended have power and authority to send to them and to call them to the most full and open triall and examination and that such who are challenged to offend must submit to such a judiciall and open triall before all commers In this text there is no more said of the Church of God then of the Jews and Gentiles who must not be offended neither and will you allow Jewes and Gentiles offended by things done in your Churches to call your Churches to an account and you must submit This text reaches to Churches that live in other Countries and unto particular Christians though they be not members of any such instituted Church as you speake of so that by vertue of this text we ought to give them no offence but will you grant that Churches of other Countries and Kingdomes may call Churches in another Kingdome to an open triall and examination and send their messengers to question them and thereupon pronounce sentence of renouncing all Christian communion with them or that every particular man offended may call Churches to an account and they are bound to submit to hearing and tryall I will give you one instance I am much offended at the great rent and difference that was betwixt Mr Bridge and Mr Simpson and at Mr Simpsons setting up a new Church and at all that great bitternesse betwixt those Churches and I am much offended at the Church of Arnheim for letting passe that schisme and all those differences never questioning it especially questioning Mr Bridges Church Now have I a power by vertue of this precept to call both you and your Churches to an account and to require of you a most full and open tryall before all commers and are you bound to submit to it answer me this question in your Reply and you shall see what I will say to you in my Rejoinder For that other Scripture 1 Tim. 5. 22. Neither be partakers of othâ⦠mens sinnes that is spoken to Timothy in regard of his authoritative power in the Church of God as the scope of the chapter and the immediate precedent words shew
which is not your case denying authoritative power but if you say this text is meant secondarily of all Churches and Christians though they have not authoritative power I grant it but then it is in wayes suitable which the word of God gives warrant and allowance for as in reproving mourning for the sin c. which must be shewne in some other Scriptures For else the Presbyterians may pretend by vertue of this text that they ought not to be partaker of other mens sins that they may censure depose excommunicate members of other Churches who are suffered to goe on in sin better then you can draw from this text that you may call not only particular members but whole Churches to an account examine them and pronounce that heavy sentence of non-communion against them But in a word bretheren let me tell you if such generall texts as these that may be applied to any course and way conceived by men in their own braines to hinder sin and reduce from offences will serve turne for Church government and for remedies to reduce Churches then we can give you besides your own two texts quoted here for your principle of submission of Churches and non-communion many other such and more probable too for the authoritative power of Presbyteries and Sinods as that in 1 Cor. 14. 22. And the spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets but we are not so hard put to it there being particular instances and examples if the nature of an Answer to such a Narration would permit me to insist at large that proove the points in difference namely of acts of power exercised by Churches in common as in elections determinations and impositions upon differences and controversies as Acts 15. 2. 4 6 7 13 22 23 24 28 29. Acts 16. 4 5. 2 Corinih 8. 18 19. But let the indifferent reader judge by this which hath been said whether the reformed Churches or the Independent practise most safely there being a ground as your selves confesse for the sentence of excommunication such a sentence you acknowledge in particular Churches and practise it and such a sentence hath been decreed and past upon members of Churches by those who were not members of those Churches as the Scriptures are cleare for it 1 Tim. 1. 19 20. But on the other hand it is not granted that the Scriptures give any ground of pronouncing the sentence of non-communion against whole Churches or doe allow any such practise of declarations and protestations unto all Churches against whole Churches this I utterly deny and your Scriptures prove them not and I wonder how you dare call it the command of Christ and the way of Christ as you doe in page 18 19. And brethren besides that the Scriptures give neither precept nor example for your way of non-communion consider whether the Scriptures give not grounds rather to the contrary namely against a particular Churches withdrawing and renouncing all Christian communion with whole Churches upon an errour and miscarriage for let me aske you may not such a Church or Churches be true Churches for all this continue in their offices upon mistaken partiality and notwithstanding all the light a particular Church can give them be unsatisfied now if a particular man may not separate nor withdraw Christian communion from a true Church though upon his counsell and advise she redresse not but 't is a schisme then for one Church upon counsell and advice given to more Churches though not taken to separate formally from many Churches by pronouncing that heavy sentence of withdrawing and renouncing all Christian communion cannot be justified Paul did not renounce nor cast-off Churches for many things amisse though upon his counsell they were not mended as appeares in the Church of Corinth that had been twice admonished 2 Cor. 13. 1 2. and ââ¦t repented not and now Paul doth it the third time and yet refusing Pauls counsell and power being so infallible and authoritative deserved more the sentence of non-communion then the often rejecting the counsell and power of any particular Church can doe But I will answer you in your own language that your sacred and undoubted principles and supreame laws of submission of Churches and of the power of Churches offended to pronounce the heavy sentence of non-communion against the Churches offending and of Declarations and Protestations to all other Churches of Christ that they might doe the like with your own practise exprest in the 20 and 21. page are to me Apocriphâ⦠and judge it to be an additament which therefore rests on you who allow the sentence of excommunication to make evident and demonstrate that of non-communion Protestations Declarations c. And thus it often falls out whilst men will oppose that which hath long been received in the Church of God upon pretence of the want of Scripture grounds and bring in new wayes they practise novelties upon lesse ground and foundation from Scriptures then they rejected the old as is to be seen in this instance 2. As these principles of yourâ⦠have no footing in Scripture so it will appeare they are no sufficient remedies for miscarriages and evills which fall out in particular Churches by reason of their compleate and entire power within themselves first because there are more acts of power then your principle of submission of Churches and the instances you give upon it reach unto so that granting all you say of it yet it would but reach to that particular case or some such like cases but would be no way sufficient either for preventing or remedying other evills and mischiefs which dââ¦e and would arise upon a Congregationall government thus entire within it selfe So that here lies the fallacy in the question between you and the reformed Churches in point of government you speake to some points of government but not to all and instead of laying down principles that should answer all cases they only serve but to some and so your principles that should be simpliciter are only secundum quid For in the government of the Church there are many other acts of power as of making and ordaining Ministers of receiving in Members of agreeing upon a government doctrine and worship c. which this full compleat entire power of particular Congregations takes upon them to doe of which many great mischiefes doe arise and are like errours in the first concoction which your principle of submission of Churches reacheth not unto nor doth not help But secondly besides this the principle of submission of Churches that miscarry unto the other Churches offended with that practise of Churches finally offended to denounce such a senââ¦ence of Non-communion doth not answer the case alleadged in heresies schisme or persons injured nor is not a sufficient remedie like that of combination of Elders and for the making good of that I shall examine the way and course prescribed by you in your principles here laid downe of Submission Non-communion Declarations and Protestations and
though as comming out in such a juncture of time wherein the strife is betweene Presbyteriall government and Independent for preeminence and comming from so many heads laid together it cannot be imagined but it should come forth doubly refined and in the most plausible advantagious way and in the best edition that 't is possible such wits and so many could set it out in an Utopia indeed rather then what it can be in common practise this being the third Edition the first that of the Brownists the second of New-England and now this the third yet the Reader may observe into what uncertainties labirinths tediousnesse delayes nay absurdities and contrarieties these principles doe leade them that follow them 1. Whereas in Presbyteriall government each part and every particular is ruled by the whole and in common the lesse by the greater in your way an equall part must take upon them cognizance and call to an account an equall 2. Not only so but suppose two or three Churches fall out and have a difference among themselves and there be but one Church free who yet is offended at the others then one must order two or three the lesse the greater and what a rule is this 3. This principle of submission being voluntary amongst the Churches we may well suppose sometimes the Churches challenged to offend or differ will submit and sometimes they will not or at least not yet and when they know themselves faulty they may pretend many things to put it off and to delay the time which time will be both very prejudiciall to the persons wronged and to the spreading of the heresie and schisme and if by delayes they see they cannot have their ends what if for all their principle of submission they flie of and refuse to yeeld to such a full and open tryall before all commers and shall denie other Churches that power of examining deposing Witnesseâ⦠c. upon pretence of conscience that there is no primitive patterne for it as you do deny the power of determination and imposition how will you bring them to it whereas in Presbyteriall government times of meeting being fixt and agreed upon men cannot evade but matters will be quickly heard and remedied 4. As in reason and by experience amongst wise men it is held a vaine course which no publicke company of men will yeeld to but such practises are rather accounted ridiculous to raise such dust and make such ãâã doe to call others to account to depose Witnesses spending many daies in a judiciarie way and yet have no power to end things to be never the nearer but that Delinquents may doe neverthelesse what they please so it cannot be conceived that the wise God hath ordered in the Government of his Churches such a kind of way for Churches who are of a publike capacitie and have a power as you grant to call Churches thus to an account c. and yet nothing to be done to the offenders Churches offended either have not power to doe thus much as you grant or else they have a greater power namely to bring about the ends which these meanes tend unto namely determination and decision the righting persons injured and the censuring the offending parties But it will be said by you that if the Churches offending take not the counsell and advice of their sister Churches about them but persist in their errour and miscarriage that censure of the sentence of Non-communion will be a sufficient remedie and an effectuall meanes to reduce them and remedie all as well as that of the Presbyterians I will not here enter into comparison between these two but do reserve it to it 's proper place The 5 t and last generall head though besides Excommunicaon there are other things in the Classicall Synodicall way both to preserve and reduce Churches which are not in the Independent way But I answer this is no likely meanes nor way for which I shall give these following reasons 1. One Church may not be able to convince another of their errour or evill much lesse one Church two or three Churches offending and differing 2. The Church offending may stand upon it that what they doe is according to their light it is according to their conscience to hold such an opinion or to doe such a fact as to depose their Minister because he hath no better gifts of preaching and whether may another Church passe the sentence of Non-communion against whole Churches and declare and protest this to all other Churches of Christ that they may doe the like for opinions or practises that are not against the Churches knowne light For if no other kind of sins then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light may be the subject of excommunication in particular persons may they be the subject of Non-communion of whole Churches 3. In reason this seemes not a powerfull meanes or probable way for if this one Church offended shall renounce the Churches challenged to offend they may and will renounce that Church also passing the sentence of Non-communion c. against that and how shall the matter now be healed and remedied 4. That Church or Churches thus sentenced may be care not for the Communion of this Church that cast them off nor of no others as long as they can have communion amongst themselves These kind of Churches that hold such principles of entire compleate power within themselves with that principle of sufficiencie of all gifts and all ordinances within themselvs will goe on in their errours and sinfull practises for all that 5. The Churches renounced and cast out may challenge the Churches casting them out for injuring of them and thereupon both Churches may declare and protest against each other to all other Churches of Christ which will prove as great a rent-difference nay worse then the first and this will produce a great deale of defending and proving for if the Churches on both sides doe declare against one another unto the other Churches which of them now shall be beleeved and what if the Churches protested and declared unto will not upon the Protestations withdraw and renounce all Christian communion with them must they then protest against them also and what the Churches protesting may account matter of Non-communion other Churches declared and protested unto may not judge so so that here will be worse matter of difference and divisions in the Church of God then before and I suppose you would not have those Churches declared and protested unto to condemne the rest sentenced without a hearing especially where there is but one to one or where one may declare and protest against two or three so that then there must be sending for all these Churches and meetings appointed for the Churches protested unto to heare the Churches on both sides and what now if the Churches declared unto upon the hearing the Churches on both sides both censuring and censured shall acquit the Churches condemned
and censured and shall condemne and judge those Churches for renouncing communion as too severe and declaring thus to all other Churches against them what must be done in these cases will these Churches censuring now acknowledge their offence and revoke their sentence of Non-communion or if they will not what must these Churches protested unto doe in this case must not they passe the sentence of Non-communion against them and if they doe so what if these Churches censuring shall also pronounce the heavie sentence of Non-communion even against these Churches protested and declared unto Now that these things and worse may not and will not fall out cannot be denied which things as to the neighbour Churches among themselves will be great occasion of schismes and continuall differences so will they minister matter of great scandall to all other Churches and of tryumph and evill speaking unto enemies all which will be easily prevented and remedied in the Presbyteriall government Sixthly Two or three Churches or more of your Independent way living amongst other Churches as you did in Holland or if your Congregations should be tolerated in England according to your desire you may hold this principle of submission to one another and yet all agree in holding some errours with which errours you may infect many of the members of the Presbyteriall Churches for which you will not question one another what remedie or meanes is there now to reduce your Churches or preserve ours Seventhly Some of your Churches by vertue of this principle that Church or Churches challenged to offend or differ are to submit themselves upon the challenge of the offence to the most full and open triall and examination by other neighbour Churches may be ever and anon unjustly calling upon some of the Churches to submit and challenging them first with being offended by them least themselves should be challenged to have offended and so as we speake call whore first and also they who are challenged to offend to be even with them will challenge them againe and what must be done in this case and who shall interpose to determine these differences or may both parties judged thus by each other to be offenders determine against one an other Eightly If Churches must thus submit to trials and examinations these being the acts of whole Churches here will be nothing but trials and examinations and censures one upon another and this instead of a sufficient remedy is like to proove a continuall vexation and molestation to neighbour Churches Ninethly What must be done in case one Church or more take offence unjustly at others and trouble them thus to call them to open examination c. what satisfaction must be given to the Church troubled and examined Tenthly In this principle of submission of Churches suppose that upon a hearing the Church offending will not redresse the grievance or relieve a person injured But goe on and slight communion with other Churches the persons injured in the meane time are debarred from the ordinances and cannot remove their dwellings without manifest ruine of their families how doth this help such persons injured or is a sufficient remedy for wrongfull sentences c. Whereas now in the Presbyteriall way if such a Minister or officers who are the cause of this may be deposed and acts passe against them and others placed in their roomes this will remedy and redresse it And so suppose a Minister of note fall into heresie and errour and draw the most of his people after him so that he cannot be deposed by the Church what good will the non-communion pronounced against this Church by other Churches do for reducing them but now if this Minister may be deposed and an orthodox Minister put in to preach the truth here is a powerfull meanes to reduce and preserve Eleventhly Let me aske you and pray determine it from the Scriptures in case two or three Churches offended doe challenge a Church or Churches offending who yet upon submitting to a hearing will not yeild to the counsell and advice of those Churches who how where after what time and how many meetings and after what manner must this sentence of non-communion be denounced against this Church or Churches whether must it be denounced in and upon the place where they meet to heare and examine or in the meeting place of each of these Churches offended or must these Churches offended meet in one of their meeting places to pronounce it together and who must be the mouth and who by warrant out of the Scriptures hath the power to pronounce that heavy sentence of non-communion and how must it be made known unto the offending Churches with other things of this like nature To say no more now this principle of non-communion is so farre from being a sufficient remedy for miscarriages or a reliefe for wrongfull sentences or a powerfull means to reduce a Church or Churches c. that 't is a remedy worse then the disease and if it should be practised would be the ground of many schismes separations mischiefes in the Church of God and that amongst whole Churches so that it were farre better particular persons should suffer wrong or particular persons fall into schisme and be left to their liberty then whole Churches suffer those evils which your principles of non-communion Declarations Protestations would undoubtedly produce as the Reader may judge by what is here written For the second your practise according to this principle occasioned upon an offence that fell out in your Churches I shall shew that as insufficient as your principles and shall animadvert upon the most solemn instances of your practise As for the Introduction into your relation of the scandall and offence I readily assent unto you had you not judged it for the advantage of your selves and way you would upon no other occasion have made it thus publike for you are good at concealing of all your principles and practises but when and where you may further and propagate your way For the story it selfe as it is related by you it is very short and generall neither expressing the Ministers name deposed nor the causes of his deposition nor the first occasion of the differences nor the way the Church took before they deposed him nor the manner how they proceeded nor how long he stood so deposed so that the Reader cannot well tell what to make of it for want of a more full particular relation or how to judge whether your principle of submission of Churches and your practise here laid downe upon it was so proper and so sufficient a remedy and so effectuall a course as you boast of in page 20 21. I must therefore of necessity in reference to the disprooving and weakning of what you would inferre from your sacred principle and supreame law of submission and the more solemne instance of your practise wherewith to vindicate your selves and way in this particular and that it may appeare it was but a
halfe slight late and partiall remedy to the offences and scandall relate the story more at large and then make some queries upon it and your solemne practise thereupon and then I shall leave it to the Reader to judge whether your principle of submission be comparable to the way of the combined classicall Presbyteriall government The Church in which this offence fell out was at Roterdam of which Mr Bridge and Mr Ward of Norwich old loving friends and both flying upon the same cause Bishop Wrens Innovations were the Ministers and the Minister deposed by the Church was this Mr Ward who for appearing and siding against Mr Bridge in some particulars and for his preaching of Sermons in the Church at Roterdam which he had preacht before in his Church at Norwich and for his giving too much heed to the reports of simple people and old wives tales was thus deposed but I cannot so fully cause the Reader to understand matters without relating the first difference between Mr Bridge and Mr Simpson the true ground and rise of this latter offence Mr Simpson one of the Authours of this Apologeticall Narration after some time of beholding the order and way of this Church at Rotterdam desired to be admitted a member and was upon his confession c. received in but not long after what were the true reasons he best knows he disliked some persons and things in that Church and he stood for the ordinance of prophesying to be exercised in that Church that the people on the Lords dayes should have lââ¦berty after the Sermons ended to put doubts and questions to the Ministers c. and he was troubled at a ruling Elder in that Church brought in by Mr Bridge which belike had more power and bore more sway then himselfe who as Mr Simpson in a Letter to a Minister in London complaining of the difference between him and Mr Bridge writ how that Elder was in that Church over all persons and over all causes but Mr Bridge opposed Mr Simpsons prophesying upon so the rationall grounds of inconveniencits as himselfe told me the story which were too long to relate yet he yeelded so farre that the Church should meet on a weeke day and then they should have that liberty but this would no way satisfie Mr Simpson whereupon the difference increased and there were sidings but Mr Bridges power was the greater to carry things in the Church and so Mr Simpson would abide no longer but quitted that Church though he had no Letters of dismission from that Church and with the help of a woman whom Mr Bridge called telling me the story of things between them the foundresse of Mr Simpsons Church set up a Church against a Church consisting but of five persons at the most in the beginning whereof the woman and her husband were two but this Church of Mr Simpsons increased as being extolled for a purer Church and for more ordinances but Mr Bridges Church was cried downe for ould rotten members and for the want of prophecie and so the fire of contention and difference grew more and more between Mr Bridge and Mr Simpson and their Churches Now Mr Ward Mr Bridges colleague sided with Mr Simpson stood for prophesying and though Mr Simpson had left that Church yet Mr Ward in that Church was for Mr Simpsons way whereupon by occasion of that and for exercising his gifts no better but to preach his old Sermons he had formerly preacht at Norwich and believing of tales giving so much way to reports he was deposed by that Church Amongst 17 or 18 Reasons of Mr Wards deposition a godly learned Minister who had seen them in writing told me these were the most materiall And now upon Mr Simpsons rending from the Church and setting up a Church against a Church under Mr Bridges nose and upon Mr Wards deposition from his Ministery and Mr Simpsons Church increasing in fame and number but Mr Bridges decreasing and some others rending themselves away and upon wicked reports raised about Mr Bridge there grew that bitternesse evill speakings deep censurings deadly feauds amongst these Ministers and their Churches as never was more betwixt the Iews and the Samaritans Mr Bridge confessed to me there were no such sharpe tongues nor bitter divisions as these Letters from all three were sent into England both into City and Countrey against each other Mr Simpson dispacht many Letters into England against Mr Bridge as to Mr M. Mr B. Mr H. Mr R. c. and Mr Bridge against Mr Simpson Mr Bridge and Mr Ward writ many Letters one against the other particularly to Norwich and among other many sharpe Letters were sent to a D of Physick about the differences and upon their comming over into England they told sad stories for themselves and each against other Mâ⦠Bridge laid these bitter differences and reports so to heart that they were a great meanes of her death and whether Mr Bridges weaknesses and distempers were not occasioned by the divisions and the wicked scandalls unjustly I beleeve raised upon him as well as by the aire of Rotterdam Mr Bridge knowes best And thus much for the particular relation of the scandall and offence that fell out in that Church of Rotterdam as it hath been related to me from good hands from some who have lived in Holland and as I had part of it from Mr Bridges own mouth and some of it from Letters of Mr Simpsons written into England and from other men of credit who have seen Letters and relations written from thence Now from the relation of this story and your practise upon it I shall propound these queries which will give some light to judge whether there was any sufficiency in your course to remedy and redresse things amisse in Churches and betwixt persons offending 1. Whether your Churches did agree upon and tye your selves to this principle of submission and the sentence of non-communion at your first setting up and comming into that place of exile or did you first acknowledge it and were willing to submit upon the occasion of the scandall of Mr Wards deposing and that great clamour upon it both in Holland and England 2. Whether did you then or doe you now acknowledge that principle of submission to all other neighbour Churches as well as to them of your own way as namely to the Presbyterian Churches those English Churches at Amsterdam Hague Utrich c. and would you have submitted to those Churches to have so proceeded upon offences and differences amongst you 3. How long was it was it not for the space of betweene a yeare and two that Mr Ward stood deposed and laid aside from his Ministery and maintenance before he was restored and if so was not this a late remedie and iâ⦠it so in Presbyteriall government 4. When and at what time was this principle of sââ¦bmission and your solemne practise both of ââ¦equiring the Church offending to give an account with their chââ¦arfull submitting
and restoring Mr Ward agreed upon was it not upon the newes of the Parliament and the probability of the revolution of things And I propound this question because Mr Bââ¦rroughs who came in M. Wards place after his deposition came backe to England but at the beginning of the Parliament and till he came or was resolved to come it is not probable M. Ward was restored and if so that it was done when all was like to breake up and they to come fâ⦠England may we not suspect it was done for an instance to vindicate your way with and to serve your turne as in this Apologie rather then from any necessitie of righting a person ââ¦jured or correcting a Church offending 5. Why did not the Church of Arnheim take offence as well at M. Sympsons Church and at his schisme in setting up another Church and at all that bitternesse evill speaking betweene those two Churches the ground indeed and foundation of that unhappy businesse about M. Ward and of all the evill committed therein and accordingly have required M. Sympsons Church to have submitted but here is not a hint of this in all the relation of your practise I have a letter out of Holland by me that concerning this businesse writes thus That though M. Sympson with sââ¦me fââ¦w morâ⦠rââ¦t themselves from M. Bridges Church to the great offence thereof yet M. Goodwin and his Associates when they came to heare the businesse about M. Ward never questioned that scandall I meane of their schisme from the same Church Now if it were so was not this a partiall remedie not reaching to all the offence noâ⦠to the bottome of it why did you not summon both these Churches in the matter of scandall and difference to submit as well as one of the Churches will not your principles serve in difference betweene Churches as for difference in one Church or was it that there was no complaint of neither side or was it because you are tender of questioning the multiplication of Churches though by seperation and schiââ¦me Or what was the reason you questioned not that 6. Whether were the other Churches of our Nation or any of them who could not but be offended as them of Amsterdam Hague Utrich Leyden Delph cal'd in by Arnheim or by the Church at Roterdam to joyne in the hearing trying of that businesse and deposing Witnesses or did they send Messengers or was it onely agitated by two Ministers ââ¦nd two Messengers of tâ⦠Church of Arnheim one Church onely ãâã to ãâã one to one both equall and whether there can be the like majesty and solemnity of a meeting where they are equall ââ¦ay an inferiority in as much as a representative Church consisting of foure is below a Church represented as in a Presbyteriall assââ¦bly I have a Letter from Holland by me wherein a godly Ministââ¦r writes thus I was desired by Mr Ward to be present at that meeting but when the time came neither I nor any other English Ministers but they of Arnheim were callââ¦d 7. To what or to how much did your practise who were the Church offended amount unto upon Mr Bridges Church submission and your full hearing and finding both sides to be in an errour did you injoyne and draw up an order that the Church offending should publikely acknowledge their sinfâ⦠abeââ¦ation before you and the commers of all sorts and restore their Minister againe and that they should keep a solemne day of fasting to humble themselves for their sinfull carriage and that the Minister deposed should acknowledge to the Church wherein he had likewise sinned or did you leave them to themselves upon your finding the offence to doe what they thought fitting both Church and Minister as being against your principles for one Church to decree and impose any thing upon another and so they ââ¦ooke up this way voluntarily would you would speake out and once tell us plainely what you hold and what you woââ¦ld ãâã that so the Reader might judge of the effectualnessâ⦠of your ãâã 8. I aske of you whether Mr Bridge with the offending Church at Rotterdam did sit as Judges with them oâ⦠ãâã in their own cause to examine depose c. or else ãâã by aâ⦠delinquents to be charged tried c. 9. I deââ¦e to know of you ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã he was rââ¦stored did as formely officiate in that Church and how long and whether Mr Bridge and he continued there as fellow Ministers and whether both between them two and between the Church and Mr Ward there was that mutuall carriage as before and ought to be between fellow Ministers and Ministers and people 10. How can a Church representative be a sufficient and allowed remedy to take up great offences in a Church at a great distance and whether this implies not an implicit faith in the represented to let the representers upon hearing put a finall determination and conclusion to great offences and differences without returning back the businesse to the Church represented or so much as ever acquainting them with the businesse before all was ended as was in this particular case and whether Mr Robinsââ¦s arguments against the Presbyterians ââ¦bout the power of their Elders be not strong against your principles and practises here related and what ground is there from tââ¦e Scripture that foure men of another Church should have power to call unto and insist upon a judiciarie charge against them who were greater then themselves namely against a whole Church consisting of officerâ⦠and people 11. Suppose the Church of Arââ¦m who sent two Ministerâ⦠and two Gentlemen ââ¦s messengers of their Church upon their returne back to the Church and giving an account of all the proceedings and issue of that businesse had disliked the determinations and judged some of the proceedings unjust otherâ⦠unsatisfactory and not according to the rules of the word as the Church of ãâã might well have done there being just ground for it as I will shew in the second particular under the next head What must have been done in this case must the messengers themselves have been now questioned by the Church for managing matters no better or must the sentences agreed upon both for the Church and Mr Ward be reversed or must other messengers be sent to heare matters againe and to change or adde what was amisse and what if the Church would not alter that which upon so full a hearing and triall was agreed upon now I aske of you and appeale to the Reader considering that the Church or Churches themselves may probably and it cannot but be expected ãâã and vary in their judgements from their messengers about the determination of offences and differences whether this be a likely meanes and sufficient remedy to end all strifed or rather will not be as the beginning of new strife and an occasion of endlesse contentions 12. In this way of submission of Churches and your practises upon occasion of offences and
differences what if the messengers of the Churches upon hearing and examining differ among themselves about the differences and offences in the Church ââ¦ending and about the sentences to be agreed upon to be commended to the offending parties yea and what if the Churches themselves upon returne made by the messengers how they find matters differ also one of the Churches offended being of one mind and the other Church offended of another mind what remedy is there now for miscarriages what reliefe for a person injured or what effectuall and powerfull meanes to reduce a Church or Churches 13. In your sentence of non-communion against Churches and in your Declarations and Protestations to all other Churches of Christ ââ¦hat they may doe the like what shall become of some innocent godly persons in that Church renounced and protested against must they be renounced communion with what will you doe in the case where some in a Church may be free from the errours and evils which the greater number are guilty of which you account the Church must they be debarred of all Christian communion with the Church offended and all other Churches of Christ protested to you speake nothing here in this case nor take no care for them but wrap up all alike in your sentence of non-communion must the innocent party now in this Church offending separate and withdraw from their own Church and renounce communion too as well as the Church offended what if all their maintenance and livelihood depends in living in that place so that if they withdraw from them they must either live without publike ordinances and communion or else if they come away ruine themselves and families what also if in this Church offending the wife be one of the innocent persons in that Church but the husband of the number of them that persist in their errour and miscarriage the sonne and daughter among the innocent the fathers and mothers among the offenders what must the wives and children renounce communion with their husbands and parents and now either live without the ordinances there or else goe away from their husbands and pareââ¦ts to some other Churches ãâã And in your drawing up your Declarations and Protestations against those Churches persisting in their errours and miscarriages will you in the grosse doe it or will you signifie and declare all the names of those who remaine obstinate and impenitent in such Churches with the names of those who are free from those errors and offences least you should bring all the Churches of Christ protested unto into sin and a snare pray resolve these cases with many such which by these now hinted you may fore-see will fall out in your principle of non-communion of Churches and Protestations Thirdly For the successe and effectualnes of your practise I answer 1. Supposing the particular instance of your practise according to the principle of submission of Churches that miscarry to have had a good effect as you relate in your two Churches of Arnheim and Rottendam yet it followes not it is a powerfull and effectuall meanes to reduce Churches for a course may prevaile in one and take with one and yet have no rationality to carry it in others for though this Church at Rotterdam did submit to them of Arnheim who were of note for parts quality c. yet it is a question whether these would to some other particular Churches who had challenged them and whether these men would also at all times had there not been something cast in the ballance before hinted 2. Take the best that came of the issue and successe of this agitation between the Church of Arnheim and that of Rotterdam namely that Church which had offended acknowledging their offence in deposing Mr Ward and restoring him to his place againe it was but a slender satisfaction for the losse of his Ministery and maintenance for so long a time and for all the suffering of him and his family If the Church offending had been enjoyned or had ordered themselves to have paid him the profits of his place or to have given him a good summe of money on their fast day this had been some reliefe for a wrongfull sentence and a person injured thereby and might have been a meanes to have preserved them from doing the like for time to come but for a Minister and his family to be so long in a sad condition without all maintenance in a strange Land and in the issue for them who did this to acknowledge only their sinfull aberration and the Minister thus suffering to acknowledge his sin too and both of them to be humbled for it alike here was a poore remedy ââ¦ay as you relate it your selves it is very unjust and injurious for in some passages of your Narration you acknowledge the fault on the Churches side as in page 16. and in page ââ¦0 and that Mr Ward was wronged and yet they were both equally ordered to a publike confession of sin and solemne fasting the Delinquent and the Innocent alike deale with is this the fruit of your principle of submission of Churches and non-communion is this the reall evidence and demonstration of the effectuall successe of such a course held by Churches in such a case and was this the issue of all that sending to and solemne assembly and the agitation of so many dayes publike hearing by deposition of witnesses so largely and formally related in page 20 21 I wonder wise men as you pretend to be should not see into the weaknesse and folly of your own practise in this case but tell such a story so to shame your selves you should never have troubled your selves to have come so many dutch miles not the Church at Rotterdam nor made so great adoe for many dayes of deposing witnesses c. as your selves relate in page 20 21. to have put together the Innocent and Delinquents And let me here put you this dilemma either Mr Ward was unjustly deposed from his Ministery both materially and formally upon unsufficient causes as the matter for such a censure and for the way and manner of it as being too suddaine before admonition and before fasting and prayer preceding c. ãâã was justly deposed by the Church if unjustly in both these respects as your Narration implies page 16. why was Mr. Ward put upon acknowledging his sin to the Church and put in the same condition with them who had dealt so unjustly both materially and formally and whether this was not a meanes to hinder the Churches repentance and humiliation for their sin when they should be put but to doe as Mr Ward But if Mr Ward were justly doposed why was the Church then put upon publike acknowledgement and ordered a solemne day of fasting to humble themselves before God and man and whether was Mr Bridge as well as the Church injoyned to confesse his sinfull aberration in it in that he did not interpose his authority and interest in the Church nor speake a
the Church meeting to excommunicate an impenitent sinner where there is a promise of binding in Heaven what is bound on earth which you cannot shew in your principle of submission and non-communion But this parenthesis is drawne in in the relation of your practise like many other particulars in this book to take with the simple people and to possesse them with the excellencie and majesty of your Congregationall way beyond the Presbyteriall and Synodicall and this passage here with many others in your Apologeticall Narration are paralell to passages in Mr Bachelours letters who after his suddaine conversion to the Church-way for want of better arguments to winne the people and to evince the truth of the Church-way writes thus For mine own part though but a few weeks agone when I was in England I found some objection in my spirit against the way of the Holland Churches and conceived wrongfully as Mr Edwards now doth through misunderstanding cast abroad by them whose sore eyes cannot endure the light of truth yet since by a good hand of providence I have been at Rotterdam and beheld the beautifull face of holinesse the lively representations of Iesus Christ in his ordinances the sweet and blessed communion of the Saints in all love and dearenesse mine objections are removed mine heart is convinced and I thinke many thousands in England as well as my selfe would soone be overcome at the very sight thereof A soule of gratious ingenuity needs no other Rhetorick to winne it then the presence of these heavenly administrations But what Anabaptist or Antinomian cannot say all this for their way and more too crying out the ravishments of the spirit free and glorious grace c. 7. You speake of consulting with sister Churches before that you proceed to matters of great moment and that you professed publikely in cases of concernment you ought so to doe pag. 16. and yet in page 15. you claime a full and entire power compleat within your selves untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely now how doe these agree for if you must consult before hand then 't is not an entire full compleate power before miscarrying and 't is but a power of consulting and advising after miscarriages and erring grossely and not an authoritative power 8. Whereas you call Presbyteriall excommunication excommunication pretended how much more truly may we call non-communion pretended and Protestation pretended for besides that in the Scripture excommunication is to be found there is such a censure there but no such sentence at all as non-communion there is also ground in Scriptures that Churches may be excommunicated as well as particular persons and of this in the Observations and Annotations upon your Apologeticall Narration page 43 44. you may reade strong proofes which your good friend M. S. thought best to take no notice of as not knowing how to answer them and I turne them over from M. S. to you five to give a satisfying answer 9. For that learned Speech made at the introduction and entrance into that solemne Assembly as the preface to it that it was the most to be abhorred maxime that any Religion hath ever made profession of c. I say 't is but a meere flourish and according to the Proverbe her 's a great deale of cry but a little wool and notwithstanding all these swelling words you are guilty indeed what in words and phrases you deny and in the more proper place when I shall speake to it in page 23 of your Apologie I will evince you are guilty of Independent liberty Thus we have rendred some small account of those the saddest dayes of our pilgrimage on earth wherein although we enjoyed God yet besides many other miseries the companions of banishment we lost some friends and companions our fââ¦llow labourers in the Gospell as precious men as this earth beares any through the distemper of the place and our selves came hardly off that service with our healths yea lives To this Section which containes the close and winding up of that part of your Narration during the time of your exile I answer It is a small account indeed you have rendred to what you seeme to hold out and to what such a Narration should have amounted concealing ââ¦nd reserving so much of your practise and wayes as I have before observed And as for those words the saddest dayes of our pilgrimage on earth c. I wonder at them sure you have been very happy men and have enjoyed many very good dayes that in your whole pilgrimage on earth of forty yeares and upwards those three or foure yeares in Holland where you enjoyed so many outward comforts and blessings should be your saddest dayes for my part I cannot say so Neither am I satisfied in those words besides many other miseries the companions of banishment For though in some banishments there are many other miseries the companions of them as deprivation of wife children friends maintenance with nakednesse hunger wandring up and downe in strange and desolate places harsh usage in a strange land yet you felt none of these But on the contrary you enjoyed wives children estates suitable friends good houses full fare I cannot imagine fewer miseries had you been in England could have waited upon you then did there unlesse that of bitter divisions and deadly differences the constant companions of your Church-way I could name many more miseries did abide some of us that stayed behind and might have done you to had you stayed in England As for those two instanced in particularly the losse of some friends and companions your fellow-labourers in the Gospell and your selves comming off hardly with your healths yea lives I must tell you those cannot properly and truly be called the companions of your banishment for those two Ministers namely Mr Archer and Mr Harris according to all reason and humane probability might not have lived longer in England both of them as it is well knowne having been long weake men in consumptions and sometimes nigh unto death before they went and for one of these Ministers Mr Archer he was so farre from being worse that he grew better and stronger in stomack sleepe strength and spirits after he went over into Holland as besides the many letters writ into England to friends of all sorts of the healthfulnesse of that place where he was with some of you and of the encrease of his strength I have letters written to me under his own hand to shew the contrary to what you affirme both of the distemper of the place and of the many other miseries the companions of that banishment In one letter he writes thus For Holland it is much better then I expected for pleasantnesse health plenty of flesh and foule we alter not oââ¦r English diet in any thing Utrich is a brave City a University with godly professors full of English a man may live as pleasantly there as at Hartford And in another My stomack sleepe strength
you may call it exile because you did flie out of your owne Country though none persecuted you to shun persecution before it came as foreseeing possibility of danger yet you can in no sence be called poore Exiles for you were rich Exiles who in Holland enjoyed many conveniences and such abundance as to be able some of you to spend 200 or 300. lb. per annum and to doe other expensive acts which for present I forbeare to name And I can produce letters of many conveniencies which you enjoyed there Letters before quoted by me of M. Archers speake so much Poore exiles are such who have no certaine dwelling-place maintenance friends but how they can be called poore Exiles that enioy wives children friends full and liberall maintenance annually liberty of callings with all pleasures and delights as much or rather more then in their owne countrey I see not Suppose some merchants and tradesmen who could not so well nor so much to their advantage follow their callings and drive their trade in their owne countrey should for their better advantage and accomodatons in these kinds goe with their families into another Countrey can these be called Exiles Suppose a Minister who disliking some things here in the present Government to be established or wanting a liberall maintenance or fearing the warre should goe over to Roterdam Hambrough to preach to the company of Merchants there where he shall have better meanes can this Minister be stiled a poore exile Now I leave you and the Readers to make application As for those words Gods bringing you backe againe in these revolutions of the times into your owne land I know God permitted it and ordered it but I well know Satan hastened and furthered it for the dividing of the godly party here and for the obstructing the worke of Reformation and hindering the setling the government of the Church that so in the meane time he might increase his kingdome and bring in a floud of all errours and licentiousnesse upon us and Brethren let me speake sadly to you not out of passion but out of long and serious deliberation it had been good for you and for us that you had continued exiles still and that neither you five nor they of New-England had heard of the revolution of our times and Gods visiting us in mercie till the Church and government had been setled I am confident that things had not then been at that passe now as they are As for that Parenthesis the powring forth of manifold prayers and teares for the prosperitie of the Kingdome in a strange Land I will not gaine-say it onely let me mind you of two passages in your Apologie Our selves had no hopes of ever so much as visiting our own land again in peace and safety to our persons and the other when we had least dependencie on this kingdome or so much as hopes ever to abide therin in peace Now take away faith hope endeavors will much cease this I judge should much hinder your praiers and teares for the prosperitie of the land for my part I had much hope of the kingdom when things were at worst and I exprest it both in preaching and conference to many and some can witnesse what I have said to them of the Arch-bishop of Canterbury and the rest of that faction and of the revolution of the times God was pleased so to support my spirit that I expected and waited as men doe for the light of the morning when that every day God would arise and doe some great worke and change the times and seasons As for your finding the judgement of many of your godly learned brethren in the Ministerie that desired a generall Reformation to differ from yours in some things that was no marvell I wonder you could expect it otherwise being but a few young men of yesterday and going a way by your selves so different from all Reformed Churches But I must tell you you found not onely the judgement of many godly Ministers that desired a generall Reformation but the judgement of them all who were in publike imployment and of any great account to differ from yours not onely in some things but even in your whole Church way how ever that since by your presence and your politick way of working and the strong streame of popular applause running that way some few Ministers uncertaine heady inconstant wanton-witted men are since come off to your way but as for your confidence and open profession that in the things wherein you differed from many of your godly brethren that you professedly judge the Calvinian reformed Churches of the first Reformation from out of Poperie to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves I answer they may doe so and I know no Church yet so perfect but may stand in need of some further Reformation and the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland grant you so much pag. 7. That they are most willing to heare and learne from the word of God what needeth further to be reformed in the Church of Scotland Now whether your Churches and those of new England be so perfect though not of the first Reformation as to stand in no need of a further Reformation in government I much doubt especially considering that letter lately come from New-England written by M. Parker as also a nother Letter from M. Wilson of Boston and a terrible Lette from a reverend godly Minister there whose name I have been entreated to conceale least it might much prejudice him there but for answer I must tell you I doe professedly judge that in your sence in the things excepted against by you the Reformed Churches particularly that of Scotland need not a further Reformation namely to come to your principles of Democracie Independencie Libertinisme and to keepe all those and their children from admission into the visible Church whom you keepe out and to condemne as unlawfull all set formes of prayer composed by Synods and Assemblies though never so holy and heavenly for matter and frame And as to that that it may without prejudice to them or the imputation of Schisme in you be thought that comming new out of Poperie they might not be fully perfect the first day I answer they never thought so neither were they so fully perfect in Church government the first day but the reformed Churches particularly the French-Churches had many Synods Assemblies and Colloquies where points of government and order have been further debated cleared and Canons added and in the Church of Scotland after doctrine was established they were exercised in conferences and Assemblies about matters of Discipline and Government which is the perfection spoken of here by you above twenty yeares Besides considering that the Reformed Churches both in France Scotland and Holland have heretofore been troubled with the maine of your principles and have heard all the Arguments and reasons for them and against their owne way and that both of old
not what though you doe not leave them as Antichristian Babilonish as false and untrue yet if you leave such Churches because impure defective under bondage not of so good a constitution in this you condemne them and so are guilty of schisme I aske of you if the members of some of your Churches should upon grounds not because you are false Churches and false Ministers but because you are not to pure as some others nor as they could set up a Church as for instance because wicked men are admitted to prayer amongst you or because the ordinance of Hymnes is not yet setled in all your Churches c. forsake and leave your Assemblies and yet should openly professe they doe not condemne your Churches as no Churches but only joyne to Churches of a purer constitution or set up a new Church as Mr Simpson did whether is this a schisme and separation doe you not hold this unlawfull especially this being without your consents nay against them as not being satisfied in the reasons and causes of such a departure Now if it be schisme and separation in some of your members pray free your selves and in your Reply wash your Churches from this offence in withdrawing from ours and answer that axiome that magis minus non variant speciem and what ever you can say for your departing from us to enjoy further degrees of purity or because our Churches are defective in some ordinances c. that your members may for themselves for according to your own confession in Apologie page 30. you differ little from us and the reformed Church yea farre lesse then the Anabaptists or some sort of Brownists doe from you Now then I put this Dilemma to you whether is it schisme in your members or not if it be schisme in them and they may not leave your Churches then it is schisme in you and you may not forsake ours but if it be no schisme in them but they may doe so members may still goe from one pure Church to a purer according to their new light then satisfie me where you will stay and make a stand and what is schisme and separation and whether a great gap and wide dore be not left open for schisme upon schisme and separation upon separation from your Churches to the Brownists and from the Brownists to the Anabaptists and so in infinitum And let me tell you though you who are Schollers have found out these distinctions about our Churches and Ministers whereby you think you salve all and so make account you are not guilty of schisme as the learned Papists having distinctions about Images Worship c. say they worship not the Images but the persons in the Images c. though the people who doe not so well understand nor cannot always remember such distinctions worship the very Images and that with the same worship as they doe God so the people who by your counsell and example had forsaken our Churches they leave our Churches and Ministers as not true they condemne our Churches and Ministers and wonder at those passages in your Apologie page 6. and say they took you otherwise and so they become guilty of schisme and separation without such distinctions though you with distinctions For that title of Independencie affixed unto you as your claime it is well you call it a proud and insolent title had I stiled it so in my Reasons against Independent governement it would have been counted by your side a reviling of the way of God and a casting great reproach upon Christs government but I shall give you and the reader a good account for that title affixed unto the Church-way and communion that you are of and if it be offensive you must blame your selves and your own party and not me This Independencie and Independent government was a name of your own giving and sure I and others might lawfully call the child by the name the father and friends gave it To speak nothing of the name of Independent government given to particular Congregations in many books of the totall Separatists maintaining it formally in those words it will be found in many printed books and manuscripts written by many men of your way and communion namely of the middle way as you call it who owne and call the government of particular Congregations Independant and reason for it under that name Amongst others you shall find it in these books Protestation Protested Mr Davenports Profession of his Faith Sions Prerogative royall A Discourse opening the nature of Episcopacie The Answer from New-England to Mr Herles book against Independencie in Christ upon his Throne and in manuscripts not a few particularly in a manuscript intituled a Treatise about a Church going under one of your names speakes often of Independent power and Independent government Besides Independent government hath been preached for at Margrets Church in Westminster and the City of London in those words so that I wonder how you dare make such a flourish for my part I should never have invented the name neither would it have ever entred into my mind but that it was common in the books manuscripts and mouthes of men of your way And this hath been taken so for granted that not I alone who might more easily have mistaken writ against the government of your Congregations under that name but the learned and reverend Divines of Scotland writ against it under that name using those tearms and phrases often and the learned Divines of Holland particularly Voctius and a learned and ingenious Divine of our own too writ against your government under the title of Independencie whose book containes many passages particularly referring to you the Apologists And so â Mr Channell who candidly testifies for you even when he would free you from being called Brownists yet saith you be commonly cal'd the Independent Ministers and doth by way of distinction from the reformed Churches call your Congregations Independent But yet further to fasten on you as you are pleased to stile it that proud and insolent title of Independencie however that you disclaime the title here and in other pages 14 21 yet you acknowledge the thing abundantly in the book namely a full and entire power compleat within your selves untill you be challenged to erre grossely and then when you are challenged to erre grossely and upon examination and deposition it is fully proved yet you will not subject to any Authoritative Ecclesiasticall power out of the particular Congregation this is the only thing in your Apology largely and with any seeming strength insisted upon and for the exemption from that you have found out the device of submission and non-communion and tell us your solemne practise upon it with the successe of it Now what else hath been fastned on you as your claime by them who have writ against your way but this did any of the Divines commended by you or did I in my reasons against your governement
write in any other sense but in the point of Ecclesiasticall government and power did we lay to your charge in our writing against Independencie that you challenged an exemption of all Churches from all subjection and dependance or rather that you should blow a trumpet of desiance against what ever power spirituall or civill did I or any others charge you with refusing all subjection to the civill Magistrate And for that other dependance of consultation and non-communion upon other Churches the power you give in that kind to Synods c. I acknowledged it in my eight reason and argued from thence to the power of excommunication why then doe you deale thus deceitfully and doubly pretending to abhorre and detest Independencie as it was objected and pleaded against you when as besides the very words and phrases found in so many printed books and notes you hold all that in the question which is the difference betwixt you and the Presbyterians as also in some of your books Independent and entire power are termini convertibiles as in the title of Sions Prerogative Royall which entire full compleate power in terminis and in so many sillables you owne more then once in this Apologie so that all your great words of abhorring and detesting the exemption of your Churches from all power spirituall or civill will not save you from Independencie justly affixed unto you As for civill power it is not the question in controversie neither was it affixt unto you and for spirituall power properly cal'd you deny it all along in many pages speaking against authoritative power often page 15 18 19. And to put you this Dilemma either you give authoritative power to other Churches or you doe not if you doe give it why doe you speake so against it in your Apologie but if you doe not give it why would you make your Reader beleeve you doe give spirituall power and are not against it is not this doubling and shuffling and troubling the waters that the Reader cannot tell where to find you nor what you hold too great an evidence of a weake and bad cause becomming not such men as you would be taken for truth is open and naked and doth not seeke out holes and subterfugies But brethren doe not deceive your selves nor your Reader any longer if you be not against spirituall power properly so called of any Classes or Synods in reference to particular Congregations what meane you by all you say from page 12 to the end of the 19 and of all that controversie and Tragedies made by you against the reformed Churches for giving a power to Classes and Synods and let me intreate you that the controversie may be brought to some end between you and us in your Reply set down particularly what you will allow to Classes Synods generall Assemblies and Councels in matter of government and whether that you will allow and give Authority and power yea or no and what you will not give nor allow them and then state the question so and I doe promise you in my Rejoynder to apply my selfe to give you satisfaction as if you except Excommunication Ordination or what else to show you the grounds for them and if we love truth and peace either you shall win me or I you 3. For the odious name of Brownisme together with all their opinions as they have stated and maintained them must needs be owned by us I answer Brownisme as you in these words expresse it hath not been fastned on you by any that I know but on the contrary you have been commonly contra-distinguish'd from them being called Independents Semi-separatists and in my reasons against Independent government I doe in many passages difference you from them and for all their opinions as they have stated and maintained them namely drawing such consequences and conclusions and going so farre as they I have often vindicated you but yet for all that you cannot justly free your selves from the odious name of Brownisme in most of the fundamentall principles and practises of your Churches no not with all your Artifices and specious pretences As the Brownists growing up and out of the Anabaptists did refine and qualifie Anabaptisine in many things in government prophecying c. So have you refined and qualified Brownisme from the grossenesse and rigidnesse of it as it was held by the first Fathers and Authours of it as I could show in many particulars you doe not goe so farre as they neither are you against some practises of other Churches upon those high termes but yet for substance from the first stone to the last in departing from our Assemblies and constituting new you agree with them as by a paralell betweene the way of your Communion and the Separatists lately printed doth appeare And in a word it is evident thus You agree with the way of New-England as is confest by some of yourselves and we may judge so by your high praise of them Now the Churches of New-England agree with them of M. Robinsons Church who are moderate and qualified Brownists Now that the Church-way of New-England is the same with them of M. Robinsons Church is proved thus The Church at New-Plymouth was the first companie that planted in those parts who comming from Leiden where they were members of M. Robinsons Church a moderate Brownist in his latter time practised the Church-opinions and wayes they formerly had in Holland and when they of New-England went over first through their conversing with them and nearenesse of scituation they tooke up and learned their way as appeares by these particulars First M. W. an eminent man of the Church of New-Plymouth told W. R. that the rest of the Churches of New-England at first came to them of Plymouth to crave their direction in Church-courses and made them their patterne Secondly M. Cotton in a letter to M. Skelton one of the first Ministers that went over thither writes thus to him in way of answer to this Position that M. Skelton held That our Congregations in England are none of them particular Reformed Churches but M. Lathrops and such as his This errour requires rather a Booke then a letter to answer it you went hence of another judgement and I am afraid your change hath sprung from New-Plymouth men whom though I much esteeme as godly loving Christians yet their grounds which for this Tenet they received from M. Robinson doe not satisfie me Thirdly There is great commendations given to the Church of Plymouth by M. Cotton after comming to New-England in his letter to M. Williams pag. 13. Fourthly All the Ministers and Elders of New-England doe affirme that all the Churches in New-England viz. in the Bay in the jurisdiction of Plymouth and at Connetââ¦acute are one and the same way in Church constitution government and discipline without any materiall difference Now what can be said more plaine Adde to all these that I had it from the mouth of a
in as much as lay in you did not you so act for your owne opinions and Church way that you would have hazarded the Kingdome Religion and all rather then the losse of your Independencie which you knew the Scots were so averse unto 7. Whether have not some of you in Conferences with many good people and by discourses in private acââ¦ed for your selves and way by stumbling them in the point of a particular Church and in the point of coming to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper and by pleading for a Toleration of all opinions that may stand with saving Grace and doth none of you remember what was answered you that Poligââ¦mie might stand with saving Grace and must that be tolerated 8. Whether have not some of you tampered with some Parliament men about delaying the meeting of the Assembly and suggesting to them doubts and feares about it and whether in the Assembly have you not by all possible wayes both in opposing some orders of speaking but so many times to one point the sooner to bring things to an end and by other wayes all that you could delaied the proceedings of the Assembly and all this out of acting for your selves and way that so your party might increase and your opinions spread before the Government might be setled 9. Have not some of you out of acting for your selves and way endeavoured the bringing into the Assembly since the sitting of it some Independents to be members of it and upon their being stopped have not some of you earnestly dealt with some members of the House of Commons that they might passe their House and what could this be but out of acting for your selves and way 10. Whether have not you out of acting for your selves and way had many meetings and consultations both of writing letters into New-England for their help and furtherance and about what you should doe and how to order matters since the Scots must be sent for and since the Assembly could not be hindred how things might be managed and carried for the best advantage of your cause and way and whether was not this Apologeticall Narration one of the Products of your consultations Now unto these ten I might adde other Quaeres but shall reserve them to my Rejoynder these being sufficient to satisfie you and the Reader So that laying all these things together what did you meane or thinke with your selves when you writâ⦠these passages could you imagine you danced in a net all this time and that men tooke no notice of you or that all had been forgotten that you had done and preacht or did you imagine your power was so great with the people having such a name that all would be taken for truth you writ or that your greatnesse was such that no man durst question what you had done or appeare against your Apologie or if they did they should but blast themselves among the people and the people would believe nothing against you what strange spirit possessed you to write thus For my part I feare not my name I have learned to trust God with it and I dare by the Grace and helpe of Gods Spirit deale with you and all of you in these Controversies But supposing all you affirme of your selves had been true eujus contrarium verum est as is too evident by what I have proved that you had neither preached printed nor acted personally for your selves and way yet all this forbearance might have been not from the grounds and reasons brought by you in this Section but from other principles of wisdome and policie as the more to ingratiate your selves with the Houses of Parliament and to insinuate into their favour and that you might the better make such an Apologie as this and make use of it to your advantage at such a time as this and I judge such considerations have restrained some of you and prevailed with you not to act so much as your fellowes and not so openly as otherwise you would especially knowing whilest you were in the Tyring-house unseene the Scene was full and the Tragedie went on there being no want of Actors on the open Stage to carry on your Church way As for instance Mr W. Mr P. Mr K. Mr B. Dr H. Mr L. Mr G. Mr C. Mr B. Mr P. Mr G. Mr W. Mr W. S. Mr C. Mr E. Mr C. Mr A. Mr L. cum multis aliis of whose preachings and acting for themselves and way in gathering of Churches c. and of books made by some of them and printed by others of them it would fill a book to enumerate particulars and to declare what hath been done in Citie Countrey Armies and in all places to make and increase parties and to occasion so great disturbance amongst all sorts as that it will be found a hard worke to settle the Government of the Church and to reduce the people And I confesse you having such choice of Instruments and under-worââ¦men to work by and to build your Babel I marvell you contented not your selves with onely casting the Modell and giving the pattern and aime to others but that you should appeare upon the workes your selves as often-times you did To your second main part in this Section the Provocations you have had all sorts of wayes to have preached printed and acted for your selves both by the Common misunderstandings and misrepresentations of your opinions and practises c. I must tell you I judge and that upon good grounds never men laying all things together consideratis considerandis had fewer provocations for considering you were but a few in comparison and going in a new different way from all the Reformed Churches and the destructivenesse of your principles to Reformation with the danger of them in drawing away and stealing our sheep from us and the contempt of our Ministerie occasioned by your principles among all the people generally of your way as also your leaving the land in the greatest need notwithstanding all these and many more that all the godly Ministers of City and Countrey should carry themselves towards you with that love respect fairnesse brotherly kindnesse as they did might have provoked you indeed but in another way then you expresse it And for the truth of this I appeale to your owne breasts and to the knowledge of my brethren and to these following demonstrations 1. There was a great deale of loving respects and faire carriage towards you both in admitting you into their Pulpits and in forbearing all things offensive to you and your party before the Sermons to gratifie you 2. There was a great deale of faire respects to you in admitting you into their Societie and publique meetings about the matters of Reformation 3. There was a generall silence by the Godly Ministers I feare unto sinfull in forbearing preaching against your points and that when some of you preached for your way and many Pamphlets were printed for it 4. The Ministers suffered some of you and no
in Holland and having spoken with many of your way yea with some of you if I mistake not and writing so lately upon these points upon the occasion of the newnesse of the controversie should so mistake or that the two reverend and learned Divines of Scotland setting forth bookes chiefely upon the occasion of your dissents the first Divine having been in England so long in the first yeare of the Parliaments sitting and having had discourse with some of you upon the points and the later Mr Rutherford being so able a man and so well versed in the controversie should conspire to prepossesse the peoples minds against what are supposed your Tenets But if all these should have mistaken that yet one of your owne Divines who writ more lately with much learning and ingenuity as your selves confesse and your Licenser too should fasten upon you supposed Tenets seemes strange But the best is we have your selves confessing in the 15. page of your Apologie that these Divines of Holland Scotland and England have written against your Tenets and government directly setly and with strength and how could Mr Herles booke against Independency be written with much ingenuity if he had prepossessed the peoples minds against what are supposed your Tenets but are not so indeed And however though neither my selfe nor my book against Independent governement are not in the number of the men and books of much worth and learning written with moderation and strength yet it is probable those Reasons against Independent governement and Toleration troubles you as much as any other booke written and may be more aimed at by you in this passage then other books and therefore to free my selfe I have not assââ¦rted any thing in that book as your Tenet but what I have good reason to beleeve you have held and I can produce it either as your known practise or out of some Manuscripts that goe under some of your names or from your own mouthes or some intimate familiars of yours so that unlesse according to your second great principle in the 10th page you have altered and retracted within these few yeares what six or seven yeares ago you held the peoples minds have not been propossest by me with what are your supposed Tenets but with your reall Tenets I desire you in your Reply to give any instances to the contrary And that neither I nor others may not write against your supposed Tenets any longer I doe beleech you for the glory of God the peace of the Church to set downe positively and plainely all your Tenets wherein you differ from the reformed Churches and the Reformation likely to be setled and that with the grounds of them or without the grounds if your other occasions will not allow you time and I do promise you by the help of God in a short convenient time without any thing personall or matter of fact to give you a direct answer from Scripture and reasons grounded thereupon whereby we may understand one another the better and bring this sad controversie between bretheren to an end the sooner 5. We who have written any thing against your way have not so much prepossessed the peoples minds against your Tenets as laboured to dispossesse them we have all played the after-game too much you the fore-game you and your party have prepossessed the peoples minds with your principles and have fil'd the City and Kingdome with your Tenets and you have been on the prepossessing hand filling many Parliament mens earââ¦s and the peoples minds against Presbyteriall government and instilling into them things but supposed against that government as not giving enough to the power of the civill Magistrate It would grieve an ingenious and conscientious man to see where ever one comes how many good people of the Kingdome are prepossessed by being prejudiced against Presbyteriall government that it will be worse then the Hierarchy and more tiranicall to the consciences and liberties of the people with such like There was therefore and is much need to cast out these Devils and to unpossesse the people possessed and by preaching conference and writing to preserve such who are not yet possest and to prepossesse them with truth because such is the nature of your errours that hither to few who take hold of them ever returne like Goodwin sands that if a ship once strike upon them there is no fetching her off or as poison which is hardly expelled if once it be diffused through the body 3. For the grounds and reasons of your pretended deepe silence and forbearance of venting your opinions to the multitude I grant they are well summed up by you and I wish they had wrought as well with you to a deepe silence and forbearance but whatever you say of the conscience and consideration of all these and the weight of each to have had such a power with you hitherto the contrary hath been prooved and I am ready yet further to make it good and will upon your Reply to this Answer say a great deale more But now I must come to examine each of your grounds apart which you say wrought upon you not to attempt in the least to make a party or to act for your selves or way 1. But we knew and considered that it was the second blow that makes the quarrell and that the beginning of strife would have beene as the breaking in of waters and the sad and conscientious apprehension of the danger of rending and dividing the godly Protestant party in this Kingdome that were desirous of Reformation and of making severall interests among them when there was an absolute necessity of their neerest union and conjunction c. I answer It is spoken like an Oracle and might indeed have wrought upon you to a burying of your opinions to a totall forbearance of them for a time and to have spent your time in a conjuring all the Ministers and people of your way not to have spoken a word not to have appeared in the least for those points till the Reformation intended had been effected but brethren was it practised by you as well as it is here spoken I beseech you let your consciences answer and in coole blood laying aside all particular interests passion prejudice consider whether it be not by your meanes or by some of you more especially who writ this that the godly Protestant party of this Kingdome desirous of a reformation is rent and divided and have severall interests mong them in a time when there was an absolute necessity of their necrest union and conjunction and all little enough to effââ¦ct that Reformation intended Have not some of your Sermons have not the practises of some of you in assembling in private houses and in the gathering of many to your Churches have not your discourses and conferences with some Ministers and well affectââ¦d people upon your points with many other things that I could name been a great cause of rending and dividing the
they held in difference which also they promised with all convenient speed in a short time should be brought in and then they would preach against them Now for the better keeping of the agreement and understanding one another for preventing mistakes and differences amongst us a Committee was chosen out of the Company some of them and some of our side to draw up the particulars in writing which was accordingly done and the Agreement under the hands of both sides for our part was to be left with M. Calamie at whose house we met that so if any difference did arise or complaint come we might recurre to the writing drawne up betweene us and accordingly doe Now this strict engagement entred into by you with the rest of your brethren in the Ministery for common ends brought by you here as one great ground of not attempting to make a party and of your deepe silence and forbearance no one thing that ever was done by you was more advantageous to your side and to the increasing of a party which indeed proved as it was feared it would and was by my selfe and some others objected as a ground against any such agreement for looke what came of the Declarations set out by the King by meanes of the Bishops that in the Arminian points there should be on both sides a totall silence in preaching and printing namely a greater prevailing of the Arminian points and spreading of them but a suppressing of the Orthodox so fell it out here for by that meanes nothing was preached nor printed against their way to hinder the growth of it but in the meane time many things were preached and printed for it our side made conscience of the promise and forbore totally preaching and printing For my owne part though for many Reasons I desired to have been excepted from the agreement as being engaged by a former promise in print to set out speedily some Tractates against their way and never did formally promise silence yet because my brethren undertooke for me for without my forbearing to print and preach they would not have yeelded to the Agreement that I might not be singular and goe against the Judgement of all my brethren though my Judgement was against the promise of silence upon what I evidently foresaw would follow upon it the advantage they would make by it to encrease a party and that I might not be guilty of hindering the common ends held out I did totally both in preaching and printing decline all those points of difference and notwithstanding I heard and knew that some of their side preached contrary to the agreement yet all that time untill it was openly declared in a full Assembly the agreement was broken and I declared I would be at freedome and some of them said the like I preached not upon those points whereas in this time many of their way preached for their way both in Citie and Countrey and some who by name were spoken of at the agreement as Mr P. and M. W. besides bookes were printed too in that interim for their way as M. Cottons answere to M. Ball about Formes of Prayer and his Church Catechisme c. In a word in the whole carriage of that businesse they were too hard for us by their policie and subtilty for whereas a mutuall silence was agreed upon both in preaching c. and that out of hand they should bring in a Narrative of their opinions wherein they differed from us and then should joyne with us in preaching against the Brownists and Anabaptists they never brought in their Narrative till this day and though at full meetings of the Ministers they have been spoken unto and some Ministers have been sent from the Company to some or one of them and the Narrative was promised at such a time and then at such a time yet it was never performed and whereas the agreement in writing for our side was left in M. Calamies hand M. Nye comes after some time to M. Calamy and pretends some reasons for to borrow it for a while but after he had it he carries it away into Yorkshire that so upon occasions of complaints of the breach of the agreement when we would have consulted with that that was gone and M. Nye keepes it till this day and having been moved to restore it his answer is it is at Hull amongst other papers 4. And above all the due respect we have had to the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and State the hopefull expectation we have been entertained with of an happy latitude and agreement by meanes of this Assembly and the wisdome of this Parliament Strong motives indeed peaceable and orderly Reformation with a hopefull expectation of an happy latitude and agreement powerfull and effectuall to have commanded peaceable and orderly men but though you make these grounds above all the rest to have carried weight yet they could no more prevaile with you then the forenamed as I have fully proved and whether you have had such due respect to the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and State let what followes speake Is it peaceable and orderly in a time when the Magistrate makes it his maine worke to reforme and cals so many godly learned Ministers from all parts to consult with to settle the Church and Government according to the Word of God for particular private men to gather Churches and to adde to them daily without and against the consent of the Magistrate yea against the instant and continuall advices and conjurements of many honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament to forbeare what might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference now no one thing could hardly more occasion or augment the differences then this of gathering Churches according to your way one or two out of this godly Ministers Parish one or two out of this Family the wife from the husband against his consent c Againe is it peaceable and orderly for these gathered Churches to meet on the Sabbath day in private houses at the times of the publique Assemblies whereby great tumults and combustions have been and may be occasioned in the streets And is it a due respect to peaceable and orderly Reformation to preach publiquely upon points in difference and for a Toleration of divers Sects and opinions And lastly is that a due respect to the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and Siââ¦te to see in Churches where you and other Ministers of your way have preached great tumults and disorders committed by your followers against the use of any part of the Lyturgie and yet never to reprove them for it nor to teach them to expect and wait till the Parliament would settle things which of you have preached against the tumults in Churches or the Lay-preaching or the gathering of Churches by the people We have had a sprinkling of a little Court holy-water for a colour
in one or two Sermons against some who say we have had no Churches no Ministers c. with which the eyes of many men who have not studied the controversies neither understand them have been blinded and by which you have the more readily drawn some either to your Church-way by your pretended moderation or to plead for you against the aspersion of Brownisme But what have you either done really or forborne for the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and State have not all the notorious and visible disorders in our Churches since this Parliament both in Citie and Countrey which have wrought such great disgusts in many though unjustly against the Reformation and the Parliament that as old Iacobââ¦aid ââ¦aid to Simeon and Lââ¦vi Ye have troubled me to make me to stincke amongst the inhabitants of the land and I being few in number they shall gather themselves together against me and ââ¦ay me c. so might Reformation and Parliament speake been committed by your followers and men of your way and ââ¦ommunion yea many of them in your presence when some of you have been to preach for as for the rigid Brownists and Aââ¦baptists they come not to our Assemblies at all O the great advantage and gaine the common enemie hath made amongst many of these things and the great losse and hinderance the Reformation and Parliament hath sustained by them What that happy latitude and agreement is with which you have ââ¦een so hopââ¦fully entertained by some you should have done well to have spoken out and have told us whether any men in place have given you promises of a Toleration for your way for I suppose by your phrase that is the happy latitude and agreement you meane Bâ⦠if any have I hope it is more then they can performe and makâ⦠good besides those persons are free from their promise you havâ⦠justly forfeited that hopefull expectation for whereas they entertained you with it as your selves say that you might keepe silence and forbeare all acting for your selves or way you have practised quite contrary as is evident by the many instances giveâ⦠in my Answer to this Section Now as this deepe silence and forbearance of yours is sufficiently disprooved for what heare I words when I see deeds so contrary so neither the conscience non coÌsideration of all these nor the weight of each have had any great power with you hitherto but your own interests For your private particular Church way hath prevailed with you above all the publike to occasion great disturbance amongst the people and so great disturbance hath been and is occasioned by your meanes that the swarme is up and settles in so many places as without Gods great mercy they will never be got into one hive againe The Lord only knowes when these disturbances will be setled and quiââ¦ted it were easie to fill up such a booke as your Apologeticall Narration with the particulars of the disturbances occasioned amongst the people by meanes of you and other Ministers of your communion In a word at that time when some of you whose names are here subscribed did keepe any silence I think it was not so much these Reasons pretended by you as the advantage of our silence in forbearing preaching and printing some bookes being then even ready to have come out that was aymed at and was a greater wââ¦ght then the Reasons here mentioned by you and besides you in your wisedomes knew well enough there weâ⦠many of your way though you were silent would be doing and driving on the trade there would be preaching and printing that would serve to take with the people and in the interim you should gaine time to ripen shapen and bring forth your opinions the better with their grounds As to those words in the close of this Section wâ⦠have and ãâã yet resolved to ââ¦re all this with a quiet and strong ãâã in thâ⦠strength of which we now speake or rather sigh forth this little c So it seemes witnesse this Apologeticall Narration that you have and are resolved to beare all this with a quiet and strong patience It is a wonder if your patience was so quiet and so strong in the strength of which you now speake or rather sigh forth this little booke you could not forbeare a little longer from putting forth this Popular and Rhetoricall Discourse to take the people with and to vindicate your selves and way especially having so many advantages 1. That many of the mists gathered about you were in a great measure scattered without speaking a word 2. The good opinion both Houses had of you to make you members of the Assembly with other favours conferred upon you 3. Your swimming with the streame of popular applause cried up and followed so by the people with your great interest and familiaritie in many men of place and power 4. Eminent Lectures and the most publique places to preach in 5. Above all your being members of the Assembly as also the Assembly being upon the very borders of the points in difference In consideration of all which I judge a very little patience might have served the turne to have left the vindiââ¦ation of your persons to God and to a further ãâã of you by ââ¦en so that it seemes not true to me that in the strength of a quiet and strong patience you now speake or sigh forth this Apologie but rather this Apologie was made for want of patience to wait and out of that common designe of acting for your selves and way and to lay in something before hand with the Parliament and the people what ever the Assembly might chance to conclude in a word to prejudge the Assembly to play the fore-game and to prepossesse the mindes of men with a further high opinion of you and your way but I beleeve God hath turned all to the contrary taking the wise in their owne craftinesse and this Apologie hath and will make more against you then any one thing you ever did I have beene told by an intimate familiar friend of yours that one of you five told him it proved quite contrary to your expectation and you admired at it it should be so ill taken by the Assembly c. It is the worst evill that ever befell you since your returne from your exile worse then all the misunderstandings and misrepresentations of your opinions and the incitements to the Sââ¦te edged with calumnies and reproaches against Toleration of your Churches and the suddaine and unexpected noyse of confusââ¦d exclamations So soone as ever I read it over with deliberation I presently apprehended it the beginning of your fall in regard of your Church-way and could not but wonder at the Providence of God in leaving you to pen such a strange piece both for matter and manner so justly liable to exceptions and offence which would loose you among your friends and draw pens of all sorts and from all parts against you and give
whatever any of your way can say for it Secondly When an Assembly was first agreed upon there were not many more Ministers and Schollers of your way in the Kingdome who were capeable of such a service how ever you may be encreased since so that you had as much advantage as your condition was capeable of yea and favour too Thirdly Considering the many hundred Ministers in this Kingdome that petitioned for Reformation and subscribed the Remonstrance who also bore the heate of the day and never flinched for it and the small number of the Independent who fled also to save their stake and to keepe in a whole skin having quitted to our Churches and Ministery and making no account to be bound by the determinations of the Assembly it is more in proportion both Arithmeticall and Geometricall to have Ten of you members in the Assembly then some hundreds of our Ministers and yet you know the whole number of Divines who meet there does not much exceed 80 persons Fourthly Number is little where conscientious men having taken such a Protestation come together to seeke out truth being free also to receive and chuse any government laid downe in the word and not over-awed by power or feare of crushing nor byased by hopes of preferment it is true in such an Assembly as the Convocation house of Bishops and their Clarkes was number was a great disadvantage Secondly For abilities of Learning I grant you there are many members of the Assembly goe farre beyond any of you in that yet among you all and in some particular men of you there are abilities enough of learning speech and wit to bring out and enforce to the greatest advantage upon study taking time which you doe and writing downe your grounds any Scripture or Reasons for your way so that you need not complaine for want of learning but rather for want of truth in your cause which will afford no better arguments for it Thirdly For Authority I know not well what you mean by that in this place you having so many doubtfull passages in your Apologie whether the Authority of Parliament or whether the Ministers who are for Presbytery have greater Authority in the Assembly then you or what else Now if you meane the first that the Presbyterian party hath the advantage of you namely the Authority of Parliament I answer the Parliament interposes no authority to determine what government shall be but calls the Assembly to advise with and draw up for them what government is most agreeable to the word giving also a liberty to the fewer number in matters of dissent to give in their Reasons as you in the 30th page grant and imply you will doe And as for the Parliament who are Authority there are but few Ministers of the Assembly who have been able to doe more with them then you or who have had a greater interest in their favour then your selves witnesse all passages of Parliament from first to last wherein the Parliament hath honoured any of the Ministers either in preaching before them upon solemne occasions or in calling this Assembly or in employing them about the Scottish affaires either in Englaââ¦d or into Scotland or in the setting up a Lecture at Westminster or in appointing Licensers for printing of bookes what ever it hath been or how few the number that have been employed though but two or three yet still an Independent hath beene one But secondly if you meane that the Ministers who differ in judgement from you have a greater Authority in the Assembly then you I answer you are all equall having a brotherly equality there the whole Assembly not having Authority that is Jurisdiction and power of censure over the meanest to cast him out or to hinder him from speech according to rule and order And as for authoritie of speaking in the Assembly and of being heard some of you have exercised as much of that as most there and for authority with the people to lead them whether you or most of the Ministers in the Assembly have the greatest is no controversie witnesse the deepe censures upon the Assembly and the godly Ministers every where by multitudes of the people but the great applause and crying up of you and other independents So that if authority with many well meaning people be an advantge it is on your side and that hath done you heretofore some service to make many men more shie of preaching against your way because of your great authority with the people that being ground enough to put many men out of the state of grace with some sorts of people besides ââ¦f authority in the peoples hearts could sway any thing with the Assembly against the truth yea but to suspend their judgements about the truth as I am confident it doth not then you would have the advantage of authority to sway the Assembly rather to your side then against you 4. For the fourth disadvantage the streame of publike interest this is a dangerous insinuation against the Assembly yea and the Parliament too without whom nothing the Assemby doth can be of any validitie as if they would be carried with the streame of publike interests rather then by the word of God and would bend the word of God to the streame of publike interest now let me put you this Dilemma either the publike interest of this Kingdome at this time will stand and agree with the word of God or it will not if it will stand then not only the Assembly but you also should be for that interest accounting the publike interest so suiting to the word of God an advantage but if it will not stand with the word but that the streame of publike interest runnes one way and Gods word another way can you think the Assembly will be carried with publike interest and leave the streame of the word would not the Assembly rather follow the word of God accounting walking according to that the greatest and most publike interest hath the Parliament Kingdome and Ministers done and suffered so much for a Reformation according to the word of God and now after all this is there a streame of publike interest divided from the word to carry away the Ministers called together according to which a government must be framed and the Church reformed and this is the great disadvantage that some members of the Assembly who would goe according to the word of God meet withall and must be put to swimme against Bretheren what will the Prelates say of our Reformation and Church government when you speake thus have not you put a sword into their hands this day against us and shall we not heare of it but I wish bretheren whilst you thus asperse the Assembly with the danger of being carried a way with the streame of publike interest that the streame of your own particular private interest and credit among the people did not too much carry you away as many other waies so in writing
its own evidence with it For answer I propund to the Reader as followes this question of your words In the meane time from this briefe generall partiall conceal'd untrue historicall relation of your practises there can be little true estimate taken of your opinions in difference which being set out by practises but in part and not the whole in the bright side and not the blacke is the least reall without any evidence in it but the most collusive way especially with the people and with such who have not studied the controversies nor know not the points in difference But I will shew unto you a more reall way if you will promise to answer positively and plainely to such questions and positions as I shall draw up for you concerning your Church-way then there may be an estimate of the opinions in difference and for requitall of this I will promise you to answer clearely and fully to any questions both of doctrine discipline and worship that you can put unto me As for those words All which we have taken the boldnesse together with our selves humbly to lay at the feet of your wisedome and piety c. I answer it is a great boldnesse indeed to present such an Apologie to both Houses the supreme Iudicatory of this Kingdome which is and hath been in all times the most just and severe tribunall for guiltinesse to appeare before wherein besides the questions and controversies so mistated and so many doubtfull dark passages there are many untrue relations and I wonder how you durst presume to lay so much folly and indiscretion with untruth at the feet of so much wisedome and piety had your Apologie been only adpopulum who are weake and apt to be deceived it had been more excusable but to appeale by such an Apologie to both Houses of Parliament is very strange but we may see by this how farre applause and favour with the people and confidence of successe will carry men You have need indeed to beseech the Parliament to looke upon you under no other notion or character then as those who if you cannot assume to have been no way furtherers of the Reformation yet who have been no way hinderers thereof or disturbers of the publike peace I think your consciences should tell you the Parliament hath reason to looke upon you under other notions and characters then you represent your selves by which I judge is the ground of your deprecating the Houses and indeed I wonder how you can make such a Petition to both Houses for it is evident you have been no furtherers of that Reformation which the Parliament or ever any wise State did in any age intend but you may assume to have been furtherers of a Reformation for Independent government and separation which the Parliament never intended But whether you have been no way hinderers of the Reformation intended nor disturbers of the publike peace let the things alledged in this answer speake witnesse gathering of Churches witnesse the tumults that have been in streets upon some of your private meetings witnesse the disturbance of the publike peace in some Churches upon your preaching and particularly if the delaying the work of Reformation and setling Church government be some way an hinderance to it and an occasion of disturbing the publike peace then you five have not been the least nor last in some way hindering Reformation and disturbing the publike peace And bretheren what is the great thing that letteth and will let but you five I am confident had it not been for you five and a few more the Reformation intended and the publike peace of the Church had been in a farre fairer way then now it is Bretheren there are many complaints and that by your deare friends of retarding the work of Reformation by your meanes you are the Remora to the Ship under sailes you are the spokes in the wheeles of the Chariot of Reformation Parliament complaines Assembly City Countrey all complaine of the worke retarded and all is resolved into you five principally I could tell you many particular passages but you know what I meane In a word all the Prelates and the Papists cannot nor doe not so much hinder the work of Reformation as you five members of the Assembly and the Lord in merey worke so that by occasion of you and by meanes of your principles and many persons of your Church-way there doe not yet rise up another great mountaine before Zerubbabel to hinder the laying the head stone of that building the foundation whereof is layed As for your differing so little in your judgements about the present worke of this agâ⦠Reformation of worship and discipline from the reformed Churches and your bretheren c. I answer if so be that you differ so little from the reformed Churches and your bretheren yea farre lesse then they doe from what themselves were three yeares past why doe you not then incorporate with us why will you or how can you answer it to God for that to make a rent and to desire to have Churches of your own way and to be an occasion of so much evill as that would prove to this Church the smaller the difference is the greater is the schisme and separation for the lesse the cause of a separation is the greater the fault is in those that make it Are we come so farre to you so many miles as you imply in those words from what themselves were three yeares past and will not you come a step or two to us for union and peace and to heale that great schisme with many other inconveniences We have and are comming blessed be God a great way to Church reformation and worship but the points that you would have us come to you in besides that they are Apocripha not to be found in Scripture we cannot being a Nation and Kingdome come to you in your way your Independent government and particular gathered Churches cannot stand with a Nationall Reformation as some of your way have confessed and therefore would have but a toleration for themselves but you may come to our Reformation easily though a Nation cannot be contained in a few yet a few may well in a Nation besides if you by your confessions differ farre lesse from us then what we did from our selves three yeares past why will you for all that great difference in us then and now and what need have you to goe make new separated Churches from whom you farre lesse differ but what ever you say here of your small difference between you and the reformed Churches and us the more to work with the Parliament for a toleration in some lesser differences yet the differences are held by you to be greater and more materiall or else you would close with us so reforming and among other particulars you differ more from your brethren then your brethren from themselves three yeares past your brethren being of one Church both then and now but you and
and doe pursue the designe of increasing your partie and spreading your way as the onely way of God else why have you preached and done so much for it neither can I beleeve you are so low spirited and so terrene as to look out after no other inrerest but a poore subsistance in this Kingdome what have you not the designe and interest of setting up Christs Kingdome and pure Ordinances in the midst of us I professe for my selfe and brethren that we have greater interests and designes in our seeking Reformation then a subsistance in our owne land though it might be never so full and plentifull namely the glory of God the advancement of the Kingdome of Christ the opportunities of doing more service And as for a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest I appeale to the Conscience of the Reader whether that be likely have you contented your selves with a poore and mean condition hitherto have you lived in a poore rank preaching in poore and meane Congregations or have you not ruffled it bearing a higher saile and carrying a greater port then most of the Godly Ministers in Citie or Countrey have not some of you the prime Lectures of the Citie and other good places of advantage and profit besides what some of you have from your owne Churches could not you have been contented to have added more places and can any who know you in what height you live and what Grandees of the times you are and how much you appeare in publike in the chiefe places of resort and have insinuated into so many great men beleeve that you would live contented with a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest let them beleeve you who will for my part I am not satisfied in the truth of it but doe suspect that if the Parliament should make an offer to you to this purpose you would refuse it You say you pursue no other Interest or designe but a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest in your owne land well you five shall have your Church-way and enjoy Congregations in such a remote corner of the Kingdome provided you shall not have above fiftie pounds a yeare nor above fiftie persons to each Church you shall adde none from any other Congregations of the Kingdome nor admit any of other Congregations to come to heare you nor never preach in any of our Churches any of your Church-Principles nor speake of them in private to any but your owne members would this satisfie you in your Reply give a positive and cleare answer As for that you say where we have and may doe further service I answer before you fell into this new Church way you did God service but since you have done more dis-service then ever service and if God be pleased to bring you backe into the fellowship of this Church and to joyne in this Reformation to grow up into one body you may doe him further service otherwise in the way of a Toleration which you aime at you will doe more hurt then you can doe good in this Kingdom yea though you had the tongues and parts of Angels As for those words a subsistance in the land which is our birth-right as we are men and the enjoyment of the Ordinances of Christ our portion as we are Christians I answer a subsistance in the land according to the Lawes established is your birth-right but not otherwise besides the deniall of a Toleration of your Churches doth not deny you a subsistance in the land but you may subsist if you please though no Toleration But supposing you may not have what you please if thereupon you will remove to other Kingdomes that is your fault and not the States when a Father or Master lets their children and servants have what is good and fitting but denies to let them doe what they list and refuses to grant what would hurt them if the children and servants will goe away and put themselves upon inconveniences to have their mindes and wils else-where it is not the parents and masters fault but the children and servants if men will punish themselves with Exile because they cannot have their wils they can blame none but themselves And as for the enjoyment of the Ordinances of Christ which you say are your portion as you are Christians then they are your portion not as Church members but as Christians and why then doe you keep away many good Christians from them for want of being Church members after your way but let me tell you though the ordinances of Christ be the portion of Christians yet not in what way and dresse so ever they will have them for so the Papists may plead to enjoy them in their way and the Anabaptists in their way but they are the portion of Christians so as to enjoy them according to the word of God in the publike Assemblies and not in a schismaticall way and so may you enjoy among us publike ordinances in the publike Assemblies but to forsake the publike Assemblies and draw away others with you and to set up a wall of separation between you and the reformed Churches this is not your portion as you are Christians but it is against Christianity and is your sinne and schisme As for that allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse you need not doubt that so farre as will stand with peaceablenesse that is so as not to urge subscriptions upon you to all the points of government and order not to cast you out from preaching amongst us though you may be of a different judgement in some lesser matters especially so long as you keep your judgements to your selves and preach not contrary to what is established to make factions and parties But if you meane by the allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences that you and others may have free leave to set up separated Congregations and goe and receive in to your Churches whom you please and governe Independently in a different forme of government from the government established I must tell you this ought not to be granted as being inconsistent with peace and truth and would be a perpetuall root and source of many bitter divisions errours and mischiefes in this Kingdome As for your last words of all not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to sot your seet on earth that seemes strange to me doe none of the English Ministers who live in other parts of the world as in Holland New-England and other places enjoy safety health and livelihood are these things confined and tied only to England did not most of you enjoy all these abroad livelihood is confessed in your Apologie a full and liberall maintenance annually safety you went over for and found and as for health some of your way have commended Arnheim you lived at to be like Hartford and Bury in Suffolke and one of you Roterdam to be as good if not better then London which places for health
are sufficiently knowne And however all these things of no other interest but a subsistance in our own land and of enjoying the ordinances of Christ and not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to set our feet on earth be held forth as specious pretences to the Parliament and Reader to perswade and to allure them yet the bottome of all this desire of a toleration in England though concealed is that there is no other place on earth where you are like to propagate your way to gaine so great a party to enjoy such full and rich Congregations and to have that respect and applause in your way as in England and in England as London and the adjacent parts or where you can have those faire hopes and probabilities of drawing so great a part of a Kingdome to your Church-way as here and where if you goe on to act as diligently and politickly as you have done in these three yeares last past and the Ministers be as generally silent and the common people of the Kingdome come a little more to understand your principles and have time to digest and consider of the great liberty and power they have thereby the rest of the Kingdome may in time come to be beholding to you for a toleration of Presbyterie if it be established which you will as soone grant if you come to have power in your hands as you will Episcopacy and Popery many of your Church-way ordinarily affirming they had rather have Episcopacie then Presbyterie and it hath been affirmed to me by a Minister of note that a Minister of the Church-way preferred Popery in this Kingdome before Presbyterie for if Popery should come in it would be but short lived but Presbyterie was like to be long lived The Arminians in the Netherlands at first desired but a toleration no more but to be permitted to enjoy in some Churches of their own their consciences with peaceableneâ⦠but afterwards that by the connivance and favour of the Magistrates they were in some Cities and places as Amsterdam c. grown to a great number and had a great power then they would not suffer noâ⦠tolerate the orthodox Ministers but persecuted them and some were forced to flie as in the stories of the Netherlands is at large recorded And if ever the Independents by connivance or a toleration should come to have a power and strength considerable if they serve not us so I am much deceived All Sectaries and erroââ¦eous spirits who are but tolerated and not owned will watch all advantages to set up their own way as chiefe and when they have a power will be impetuous and violent to effect it as the Anabaptists in Germanie were the Arminians in Holland and the Antinomians and Familists in New-England As women out of their weakenesse and feare when they have power over any are most cruell so Sectaries out of their feare least a State may one time or other cast them out and not tolerate them will upon an advantage suppresse and destroy the orthodox and stablish their own 2. As for the matter it selfe contained in the close of your booke a Toleration of Independent Churches and government the scope and last end of this Apologie whereunto tends all the artifice and fallacies in the composure of it I shall lay downe some Reasons and grounds against it I cannot stand to handle the question at large about tolerations of different Religions or of divers Sects and opinions in one and the same Kingdome this answer being already a great deale longer then I intended it I cannot now open the tearmes and premise the distinctions as distinguishing concerning the nature and kind of errors concerning the persons erring concerning the kinds and degrees of toleration and coaction c. I shall reserve the full handling of this point whether toleration be lawfull to a particular Tractate I intend upon that subject In the meane time upon occasion of what you present here to the Parliament I shall humbly submit to their considerations these following particulars 1. A Toleration of Independent Churches and government with their opinions and practise is against the Magistrates duty laid downe in Scripture but for Magistrates by good lawes to command and require obedience to the government and Reformation upon good grounds judged to be according to the word of God and so established is lawfull and their duties For the clearing of which I premise two things which I suppose must needs be granted 1. That the Magistrate is custos ac vindeâ⦠utriusque Tabula as is confessed by all orthodox Divines that the care of Religion belongs to him and that he is to looke to it that the Church of God and the Government of it be constituted and setled according to the Word and that the people may lead a peaceable and quiet life in all godlinesse and honestie for which end Princes and Magistrates are to make Lawes for the observing of the Worship and Government of Christs Church forbidding and punishing with religious severitie those things which are practised against the Word of God but commanding what is according to it this is one of the great services they yeeld to Christ as they are Magistrates and I find Augustine and other Divines giving that sense of Psal. 2. 10 11. of Kings and Iudges serving the Lord with feare and of Deut. 17. 19. of God commanding the King to read the booke of the Law that he may learn to observe the things which are written in it not onely as private men practising these and ordering their lives according to the Word but as Kings they should order their Office by the Word not onely by living holily for so they serve God as men but as Kings and Magistrates by making Lawes for the Worship of God and prohibiting the contrary 2. That the Reformation in Worship Government c. which shall be setled and established by the Parliament is judged and taken for granted by them to be according to the minde of Christ else why have they called so many able godly and learned Divines to consult with for that purpose and stood so much for a Reformation according to the Word and why else will they establish it if there be any other more agreeable to the Word so that whatsoever other Government after all debates and Reasonings is rejected and refused must be thought not to have such a ground in the Word for if it had why was it not established and owned but comes to seeke for a Toleration and Connivance Now then by vertue of many Scriptures both in the old and new Testament the Examples of the Kings of Judah in commanding and requiring all the people to yeeld to the Reformations made by them and in particular the Spirit of God commending Iosiah for making all Jerusalem and Benjamin to stand to the Covenant which he had made with God the fourth Commandement requiring of the Father of the Family that he see
unlesse they be Church members with many more all slat against the Primitive patterns hath ever been from first to last a fountaine of evill and a root of bitternesse of many bitter divisions and separations amongst themselves of manifold errors and other mischiefes in those Churches and places where they lived God having alwayes witnesses against it and never blessing it with peace and truth I shall not need to relate the histories of the Anaptists the highest forme of Independencie and the Church way what evils they fell into and the mischiefes they brought upon Germanie and how God cursed and scattered them As for the Brownists the middle forme of Independencie the Apologists themselves confesse they had fatall miscarriages and shipwracks And I could tell a sad storie but that it would be now too long even from Bolton and Browne the first and prime leaders down to the present Brownists at Amsterdam of the Apostasies Heresies Separations and bitter divisions with the untimely fearefull ends which have fallen out amongst them but in respect my booke so much exceeds the proportion intended I shall reserve that for a more distinct handling And for the semi-Brownists and Independents so cal'd by way of distinction they have not been free The Churches of the Apologists have had their bitter divisions and fearefull miscarriages as the Reader may remember in these pages of this present Answer pag. 35 36 37 142 143 144. with some erroneous conceits fallen into and preached in one of their Churches So in the Churches of New-England there have been so many errors differences and evils that I beleeve had we but a true impartiall storie of New-England for the first seven or eight yeares after they were come to any number we should have the strangest storie next that of the Anabaptists and old Brownists one of them in the world in a word they were brought by their Independencie and Church principles next dore to ruine both spirituall and temporall the sad experience of which hath made them wheele about of later yeeres towards Presbyteriall government and in stead of that not being yet formally come to it to take aliquid analogum in the first constituting of Churches making Ministers c. which at first they did not and to give more power to Classes and Synods then they did many yeares agoe as by comparing some Letters from thence in those times written by Ministers over into England and Mr Cottons late booke will be evident In a word he that will observe it shall find the end of Independencie infinite schismes separations errors inconstancie and uncertainty in judgement yea barbarisme and confusion and the Toleration of it by this State would be the opening of a sloud-gate to many other errors and evills besides what evill is in that being a way all along wherein it ââ¦iffers from the reformed Churches either beside or against the word of God And should the Parliament which God forbid and I hope is farre from their thoughts give the Independents a Toleration of their way and Churches they should give they know noâ⦠what having never yet spoken out all that they hold this Apologie containing but a little part of their way besides taking in their second great principle page 10. Apolog of not making their present judgement and practise a binding law for the future the Parliament may grant grosse Brownisme Anabaptisme within a short time many falling off according their principles of new light to cast off communion with their own Churches as some of Mr Sympsons have done and let it be but remembred what I now write whether some of the Apologists if they come not in and joyne with the reformed Churches doe not within a few yeeres goe a great way further I think had they staid together in Holland till this time without any hopes of a Toleration here some of them had gone farre by this time of day Anointing with oyle was begun to be brought in Hymnes had been moved for in one of their Churches and if I may beleeve the report of a religious Person in an open company affirming it againe and againe when I doubted it that a member of the Church of Aââ¦nheim who was also named to me related that had they staid there a little longer the ordinance of Hymnes had been practised amongst them one being chosen and agreed upon by the Church to exercise that ordinance And I am able to demonstrate it that the Apologists keeping but to their principles besides the principle of a Reserve must yet goe a great way further and supposing the Parliament should make a proposition to them Wee will grant you this and this and so which be the present principlââ¦s you hold forth but if you bring in any thing more or goe farther then your Churches shall be dessolved and we will recall what we granted you because we will be sure to know what we allow in matters of Religion be at a certaintie for that I doe not thinke the Apologists would accept of a Toleration upon those tearmes and such a condition The beginnings of errors commonly are most modest but let alone some time they exceed all bounds how farre most of the Arminians proceeded beyond what Arminius held or themselves at first the learned books of many Divines and experience showes and if a Toleration were granted to the Apologists and all those of their communion to exercise their consciences I feare before a yeere went about many would turne Anabaptists c. but I desire rather to pray against a toleration then to prophecie of the evill of it But supposing the best that can be that the State had an Assurance the Apologists and their Churches would not goe one step further then now they hold the Toleration should not be made use of to any further errors yet the Parliament should not allow it unlesse they would grant a Toleratiod of Brownisme and if Brownisme be a bitter error and way then the way of the Apologists is not very sweet their way being but Browns younger brother agreeing with the Brownists in the nature and definition of the visible Church in the Independent power of a particular Congregation in the way of making Officers in the way of their ordinancââ¦s as Prophesying in the way of Forms of Prayer in the Sacraments none to be admitted but Church members cum multis alijs and I desire the Apologists to give any materiall difference however their grounds are different and they doe not goe so farre in consequences nor are not so grosse between their Churches and the Brownists As for that of the power of the people and the Officers in giving the power to the Officers but the Brownists to the people I answer however the Apologists differ in that point from the Brownists in words phrases methods and give us many fine words and flattering similitudes going about yet the truth is they differ not in substance in their practise but all comes to one end and
spread and they gained so many of the Magistrates on their side we should have found there would have been no ground for Mr Simpson to write thus As is cleare in the Low-Countries where so many Ministers and people turned Arminians Papists and Socinians In a word till the calling of Synods and the power of Presbyteriall government was shaken and some Arminians by flattery and policie wrought to put by Ecclesiasticall Assemblies and appealed to the Magistrates as Mr Simpson does in this Apologie from the Assembly there was not so great a defection both of Ministers and people unto errors in turning Papists Socinians c. 3. Though Presbyteriall government hath not its free course in the Low-Countries as in France Geneva Scotland besides the Toleration there yet there are infinitely fewer miscarriages in censures divisions errors in the Presbyteriall Churches then in the Independents there having been more contentions miscarriagââ¦s falling into errors in one small Church of the Independent way at Amsterdam and that within lesse then one yeere then in all the Churches in some Provinces I remember perfectly I have read in Mr Pagetts Arrow against Separation a man who lived long in Holland and much versed in the Controversie how he showes that out of a few members in the Brownists Churches more fall to Anabaptisme c. then out of many thousand members of the Presbyteriall Churches amongst the Dutch or out of all the English Reformed Churches there So that notwithstanding this new objection brought against Presbyteriall government if the Parliament should please to settle it and that in the full power and free use of Classes and Synods denying also a Toleration for Independencie unto which all erroneous and discontented spirits upon all occasions would flow and gather instead of opening a wide gate for errors divisions and many other mischiefes they shall lay a sure foundation for truth and peace in these Churches And in the last words of the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland I conclude this last Reason against a Toleration The Church of England which God hath blessed with so much learning and piety by this Reformation and uniformity with other reformed Churches which all of us have solmnely sworne and subscribed to endeavour in our severall places and callings should be a praise in the earth Now did not other occasions call me to take off my hand besides the booke it selfe swelled already to such a number of sheets I would have answered all the reasons brought both for Tolerations in generall and particularly for the Congregationall way as that men are to be perswaded in matters of Religion and not compelled as that the Conscience is to be left free as that the deniall of a Toleration will be a great persecution as that this is the way to make men hypocrites as that Gods people are a willing people c. but reserving this to another season in the close of this Discourse I will propound these following questions to the Apologists 1. Whether the commanding of men by the power of Lawes to doe their duties to doe the things which God requires of them with the using of outward meanes to worke them to it when unwilling be unlawfull for the Magistrate and against Christian libertie yea or no 2. In your moving for a Toleration doe you desire it for you five only with those who are actually and will come in to be members of your Churches or for all the Churches who are of the same way and Communion if for your selves and Churches onely which would be more tolerable a few then a great number and you being persons of more worth then most of the others consider the solemne League and Covenant is against it That we shall without respect of persons endeavour the extirpation of schisme and whatsoever shall be found contrary to sound Doctrine so that you cannot be tolerated more then others besides if that were granted you being but five Ministers and making up but three or foure Churches the Parliament would be never the neerer in giving satisfaction for what should become of all the rest of the Ministers and Churches in City and Countrey of Mr C. Mr B. Dr H. Mr L. Mr G. Mr W. c. the Parliament would be accounted partiall and further off from giving content then if they granted none at all But if it be said you desire it for all Churches of your constitution I answer expresse so much under your hands and I will then give you an answer 3. Whether would you have a Toleration granted in the generall and indifferently for all consciences sects and opinions or only for some sort of opinions I suppose being wise men you will not expresse your selves for a Toleration in the first sense but in the latter I desire to know of you then what limits and bounds you will set and where the Parliament shall stop and what rules you will give for this as first whether the limitation shall be a Toleration only for all different formes of Church-Government and order so long as they agree in Doctrine with the Church established and are Orthodox but not of doctrine Now if you hold so then the Brownists and the Bishops with those who are for the Hierarchie must be tolerated as well as you many Episcopall men being sounder in doctrine then some of your way and if so then the simple Anabaptists and that sort of simple Anabaptists called Dippers will come in too saying that Baptisme at such an age and baptizing in rivers by dipping are but matters of order and time and what if yet a new forme of Church Government and way of externall order in the Administration of Gods Ordinances be set up by some a way which hath never yet beene practised by any must that be tolerated also consider with your selves whether there may not be a safer allowance of difference in some doctrines and opinions then of different governments as also what you have expressed of the consequence of Church Government and order and then resolve me whether you will have all formes of Church-Government allowed and in my Rejoynder I will apply my selfe particularly to show you the danger of that and how much hazard there is even of the Doctrine from the Discipline and Order if that be not right Or secondly would you have a Toleration in points of Doctrine too namely in lesser differences I desire to know what you will make the rule and measure of those lesser differences whether whatever may stand with saving grace and is not against the fundamentals of Doctrine and civill Government or what else Now if you meane so who shall determine and judge what may stand with saving grace c. every Heretick Socinian c. will plead his opinion may and I aske of you whether many points and practises very bad and pernitious may not stand with saving grace in some men at least for a time what say you to Polygamie that hath stood with saving
grace may that be tolerated what think you of many Arminian Tenets some Lutheran opinions Antinomian Doctrines and other dangerous points held by great Schollars as by Brentius Osiander Flaccius Illyricus may not some of these opinions stand with grace and might not some of these have grace and must these now be allowed to be preached in a Kingdome that hath established Articles of Religion and a Confession of Faith and shall such preachers gather people into Churches if all points may be preached and Churches allowed for all Doctrines that are not against fundamentals and that may stand with saving grace there will be a strange face of Protestant Reformed Churches infinite novelties may be broached and great stirs caused in a Kingdome I desire you in your Reply to state your lesser differences and to set downe your Boundaries what and what not and accordingly I shall answer In the meane time from these few hints you and the Reader may see besides the unlawfulnesse there 's difficultie where to fasten a Toleration Now in the close of my discourse against Toleration I take the humble boldnesse to represent to the Honourable Houses of Parliament that t is the Magistrates dutie not to suffer schismes heresies and other errours to grow and increase in the Church for as they are Magistrates they truly serve God whose Ministers they are and kisse the Son in revenging the injuries wantonly committed against God and his truth and in preserving the externall politie of Doctrine and manners one of the great services Princes and Parliament performe to Christ in reference to their great and high calling consists in making Lawes for the observing the Worship and Government of his House and by Lawes prohibiting all other worships and governments And I humbly beseech the Parliament seriously to consider the depths of Satan in this designe of a Toleration how this is now his last plot and designe and by it would undermine and frustrate the whole work of Reformation intended 't is his Master-piece for England and for the effecting of it he comes and moves not in Prelates and Bishops not in furious Anabaptists c. but in holy men excellent Preachers moderate and faire men not for a toleration of heresies and grosse opinions but an allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse this is candidus ille Diabolus as Luther speakes and mââ¦ridianus Diââ¦bolus as Iohannes Gersonius anâ⦠Bâ⦠expresse it comming under the merits of much suffering and well deserving clad in the white garments of Innocencie and Holinesse In a word could the devill effect a Toleration he would think he had gained well by the Reformation and made a good exchange of the Hierarchie to have a Toleration for it I am conââ¦ident of it upon serious thoughts and long searching into this point of the evils and mischiefe of a Toleration that if the devill had his choice whether the Hierarchie Ceremonies and Lyturgie should be established in this Kingdome or a Toleration granted he would chuse and preferre a Toleration before them and would willingly part with and give up all those for a Toleration of divers Sects and different Churches To conclude if the way of Independencie be of God and the Apologists can make that good let it be established by the Parliament and let 's all come to that if it be not why then should it be tolerated and why did the Apologists move for a Toleration before that ever it came to be debated and argued in the Assembly And now for a conclusion and closing up this Answer to the Apologeticall Narration I might as some Authors doe in answering Bookes gather together and draw up into one all the maine particulars of the Apologie animadverted upon and put them under certaine heads and ranke them in their severall formes and so present a Synopsis of them to both Houses and the Reader whereby they might have all in their eye at once see much in a little As 1. all the expressions of the high praises of themselves and their owne partie scattered up and downe in the Apologie 2. The Aspersions Depressions Insinuations both open and more secret of the Reformed Churches and of the Assembly 3. The crossings and interfearings of some passages in the book with others 4. The plaine and manifest untruths expressed in many pages 5. All the Reservations and Concealments of matters both of opinions and practises in the Church-way 6. The double doubtfull expressions both in words and matter 7. The mistating of the questions in difference both on their owne side and the Presbyterians stating their owne differences with the lowest and the Reformed Churches at the highest 8. The generall expressions without comming down to ãâã ãâã which being deducted and extracted from the Apââ¦ie what remainâ⦠behind saving some few argumenââ¦s hinted but a just testimoâ⦠of the Parliament and Assembly with a ãâã character of the people and multitude and a brand upon the old separation which paâ⦠also of the Parliament Assembly People and Separation ãâã brought in both the praise of ãâã and the dispraise of the other in reference to the magnifying and commending the more the ãâã and patience c. of the Apologists but I spare the wise Reader may observe the passages and I have animadverted upon them all along in my Answer I could have made one part of my Answer to this Apologie ãâã strange though ââ¦ue paraphrase upon it and andinâ⦠ãâã have ãâã the Narration of themselves for the most part contrary But I shall reserve that with some other things I have yet to say iâ⦠matter of fact till I put out my Rejoynder to their Reply In ãâã meane ãâã I shall conclude this Antapologie with ââ¦rning my ãâ¦ã by dissolving your Churches and comming in to us and that you may repent and recall this Apologie I will represent to you the greatnesse of your sin and folly in making the Apologie and it stands in these particulars 1. It was an unseasonable disorderly work for the time and way of it 2. 'T is a Narration full of mentall Reservations high praises of your selves but censuring and scandalizing the Reformed Churches of Christ. 3. There are many untruths in it and that not only where you make naked relations oâ⦠things but where you make professions before God and the world yea ââ¦here you make serious Invocations of God to aââ¦est them and men also and all this is done publikely by printing and deliberately and upon a designe to take the more with the people and to make way the better for a ââ¦oleration 4. There is a breach of the solemne Covenant subscribed by you especially in that clause of the first branch we shall endeavour to bring the Churches of God in the three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformitie in Relegion Confission of Faith and Forme of Church-Government in stead of which before ever you ââ¦o much as tried and endeavoured it by debating those
matters of difference in the Assembly whereby it might be brought to an Uniformitie you endeavour by this Apologie a Toleration and sue for an exemption of Conjunction and Uniformitie in Church Government which is strange you should desire especially having coveââ¦anted to the contrary which breach of covenant is aggravated also that you do not onely do it your selves but you labour to bring the Houses into it by moving them to grant you a Toleration Now if a simple and single untruth need repentance what repentââ¦nce ought there to be for such a compounded aggravated evill as yours ââ¦s And as I have represented it to your own consciences that you may smite upon the thigh so I turne you over to your Churches whereof you are Ministers that they deale with you for your great sin and either bring you to Conââ¦ion and Repentance or else proceed to censure did I know where your Churches dwelt and where they meet I might then come and complain to them of your great sin but in stead of comming I send them this Answer and hereby give them notice and ãâã ready to satisfie any that shall desire further proofe and in stead of declaring by letters the offence I doe by printing declare it and require of the Churches especially Mr Sympsons Church as they will not be guilty of suffering known sinne in the Church as they would not suffer sinne to lye upon a brother and as they would vindicate the glory and honour of Christ that they call Mr Sympson to an account and admonish him and bring him to publike repentance for his publike sin or else upon impenitencie and obstinacie that they cast him out of the Church and I beleeve the sin he is charged with will fall under the subject of that dreadfull sentence according to what sins your selves judge that sentence is to be put in execution for Apol. pag. 9. But if Mr Sympsons Church neglect and will not question this sin then I desire the rest of the Churches of that Communion to send to the Churches of the Apologists and to charge them with their countenancing of sin and if the Churches will still beare and wink at sin and continue impenitent that then the rest of the Churches namely Mr Lockiers Mr Carters Dr Holmes c. doe pronounce the heavy sentence of Non-communion against the Apologists Churches and further to dèclare and protest this with the causes thereof to all other Churches of Christ that they may doe the like to send also to New-England and give notice to all the Churches of the Separation that they may Non-communion the Apologists Churches But if the particular Churches of the Apologists and all the Churches of their owne Communion will all hold to favour sin neither question the Apologists nor their Churches then we shall have a cleare instance of the partialitie of those Churches and of their allowing of sin among themselves and of the insuââ¦ticiencie of those Remedies of Submission Non-Communion Declaration and Protestation FINIS * Calv. epist. 65. Melanct. Verum si in nobis omnibus esset is animus qul esse debet aliquod forsan remedium posset inveniti Et certè foedum exemplum transmiââ¦imus ad posterot c. August Vincentio Epist. 48. Nunc vero etiam si tibi nihil profit non puto nihil ijs profuturam qui eam legere cum Deitimore sine personarum acceptione curaverint a Beza Epist. 1. And 1. Duditio Dominus te totamque familiam ob omni malo ac praesertim a Daemoniss meridianis istie obambulantibus custodiat * Mat. 1. v. 18 19. Acts 7. from v. 2. to v. 57. Acts 22. v. 1. to v 2â⦠Acts cap 24. Acts cap. 26. a Justin. Mart. 2. Apolog. pro Christianis Tertul. Apol. Athenag Apol. vel legatio pro Christianis Athanas. Apol. Arnobij Apol. Eulog Apologââ¦t Sanctorum Martyr b Zuinglij Apol qua ad crimina respondet Apologet. contra Episcop Constant. Bucer Apolog. contra Brentium Dannaei Apolog. pro Helvet Ecclesijs Apolog Dan. pro adoratione Melancthonis Apol. August consess Apolog. pro Luthero Gualtb Apol pro Zuinglio Beza Apolog. Jevelli Apolog. Eccl. Anglicanae Mort. Apol. Cathol c Scââ¦venfeld Apol. contra Fabium Apol ad Regeâ⦠Hung. de mediatione Stancari Apolog. Vorstij Theses Apolog. Exeg Apol. Oratio Apolog. Bertij Apolog. Apolog. Remonstrantium Apolog. Schast Francae D. P. Dirick Pââ¦ps Apol Apolog. Episcop Francisc. de S tâ Cl. d Apologie of the Brownists Robins Apolog. Justif. of Separat e Apolog. for Ch. Cove Apol. Reply Davenport * Page 4. 11 19 12 24. Apolog. Apolog. M S. to A. S. cap. 5. pag. 83. Apolog. Dissert de Guber Eccl. pag. 620. Quinam bujuâ⦠criminis rei judicentur me quidem latet neque in qirere ad nos attinet Hoc scio noâ⦠convenire in eos qui intra sententiae nostrae terminos se continent Apolog. To his loving friends Mr Henry King Mr Tost Mr Smith Mr Raner Mr Mapp Apolog. Apol. Iusta necessaria per Joh. Robins cap. 6. De conjugio per pastores Ecclesiae celebrato Reformat of Ch. Govern in Scotland pag. 4 5 18 19. Reformat of Ch. Govern in Scotland pag. 10. Reformat of Ch. Govern pag. 18. 'T is laid for a common ground by the Divines in all the ââ¦eformed Churches that where a whole Nation is converted to the Christian faith every particular Church is not to be left to it selfe as if it were alone in a Nation but that Christ hath provided a way and there is a necessity of a common Nationall government to preserve all the Churchâ⦠in unitie and peace Apolog. Page 9. Meââ¦ch Adam vita Whitak pag. 177. Mr Raââ¦b Narration of Ch. courses p. 1. The rest of the Churches in New-England came at first to them in Plimouth to crave their direction in Ch. courses and made them their patterne Apolog. Letter Mr Cottons letter examined and answered pag. 44. Mr Cotton himselfe and other most eminent Ministers in Nââ¦w-England had freely confessed that notwithstanding their former profession of Ministerie in old England yet in New-England till they received a particular calling from a particular Church that they were but private Christians Apolog. Robin p. 10 11. c. 12. de Eccl. Angl. * Robins Apol. cap. 12. p 78. Propria inquâ⦠peculiaria in quibus verbi auditionem simpliciter noâ⦠annumero ââ¦pote inqua non intercedit inter docentem discentem communio spiritualiâ⦠sive Eccl. sive personalis nisi ex unione prae via Ecclesiastica aut personall Robins Catechis Quest. May all the faithfull partake in the Sacraments Ans. No except they be also added to some particular Congregation Apolog. Letter out of Holland De Ecclesijs reformatis quid aliud dicam eas pro veris genuinis c. Ecclesijs bahemus cum eisdem in sacris Dei communionem prositemur quantum in nobis est colimus conciones publicas ab illarum pastoribus habitas ex
nostris qui norant linguam Eelgicam frequentant SacraÌ coenam earum membris siqua forte nostro coetui intersint nobis cognita participamus Robin Apolog. Apolog. Letter to Mr King Mr Tost c. Apolog. Tertul. de Resur carnâ⦠ãâã 3. a Chamier Panstrat Cathol lib. 8. de Canone cap. 3. b Whitak de Script perfect quae 6. cap. 14. In soro non ex jure humano sed ex lege Mosis pronunciandum esse contendit Melch Adam vit Carolost Schlusselburg de Secta Schuvenckââ¦ld Cameron Sâ⦠ver Iudge in controvers c. 11. Chamier Panstrat Cathol de Canone l. 8. c. 1. de persectione Scripturae Statâ⦠controversiae Sect. 16. Cham. de Canone l. 8. c. 2. Sect. 20. Whitak de Script Perfect contra Hum. Tradit quae 6. c. 10. Whitak de Script perfect quaest 6. c. 6. Status quaestionis proponitur 6 Article of the sufficiencie of the Scriptures for salvation Vide 39 Articles of Relig. of Ch. of Engl. Serm. at publike Fast Novemb 29 1643. pag. 26. a Danaei Comment in 1 Tim. 5. v. 13. v. 17. Cum ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã quadam homines omnia quae Apostolorum temporibus observata suerant sibi putarent imitanda neque locorum neque temporum neque rerum dissââ¦nilium rationem baberent eââ¦am ipsi suas Dioconissas retinere praecââ¦Ã¨ voluerunt Sed cum posterioribus temporibus c. Et certe ââ¦is impudentes sunt Catabaptistae qui Pauli facti exempli praetexâ⦠omnes verbi Dei ministros ad manualia oââ¦era cogendos esse contendunt ut victum comparent b Apostolici inter Anabaptist as cognominati sunt quia Apostolos aemulari in omnibus decreverunt Hi nudam Scripturae literam tenere se jactabant Absque baââ¦ulo calceis pera pecunia hinc inde vigabantur juxta Christi verba Ascendeââ¦ant in tecta domorum ex quibus habebant conciones quia Christus dixisset quae in aurem accepist is annunciate in tââ¦ctis Pedes sibi invicem lavabant cum puer is repââ¦erascebant hoc est pueriliter se gerebant uxores liberos domuâ⦠opificia deserebant quia Christus dixisset nisi quis reliquerit doââ¦um uxorem c. propter me non potest esse meus discipulus Schluââ¦leb de Secta Anabaptist Mr Tho Goodwins answer to a letter with a Quââ¦re concerning the Church-covenant Confident we are is considence it selfe can make us that there is no commandement given to the Churches for exacting any such covenant of those that are to be admitted into Church-fellowship with them Quere concerning the Church-covenant Apolog. Apolog. ãâã I. G. Letter to T. G. Apolog. Whitaker dâ⦠Eccles. Apolog. Manuscr Arg. of M. Nye against set-formes of prayer prescribed a M. Williams answer to Mr Cottons letter Queries proposed upon occasion of an Apologeticall Nââ¦ration Robinsoni Apolog cap. 12. de Eccles. Anglic. Apolog. Reform of Ch. government in Scotland cleared pag. 18. Dissert de Gub. Ecclesiae pag. 11. Robins Apol. cap. 1. de Eccles amplitudinâ⦠a Polit. Ecclesiast l. 3. c. ãâã c. ââ¦2 b Polit. Eccles. l. ãâã c. 1. ãâã Balls friendly tryall of separation * Gersom Bucerus Dissert de Gub. Eccles. p. 11. Nos particularem Eccle siam intelligimus quemlibet credentium cââ¦tum in unam vocationem divinam Evangelij praedicatioââ¦e sacrarumque institutionum observatione adunatum ac uni Presbyterio subjunctum sacros vero conventus uno out pluribus locis agitââ¦ntem Nam Paraeciarum in quibus convenitur numerus accidentaria res est nihil ad Ecclesiae particularis essentiam pertinens M. Bridges letter to M. Toâ⦠M. Smith M. Henry King c. The Keyes were given to the whole Church unles we say they were given to Peter only and his successours search the Scriptures and see if you can find any place where any body or particular Church is subiect to one man or officer Reform of Ch. government cleared p. 25. a Robins Justif. of separat b Mr Burroughs on Hosea seventh Lecture p. 174. If we consider the difference between Ecclesiasticall power and civill power we shall see it cleare that there cannot be a ministeââ¦ll head of the Church c Ames Med. Theol. Iohn 4 10 22. Apolog. * Robiââ¦s Justif. of separat Robiââ¦s Catech. A representative Church in a case of faith and conscience without the consent of the represented in the particular decree establisheth the popish doctrine of implicite faith a Voetius select Disput. de quaestione peââ¦es quos sit potestas Ecclesiastica Thes 1. Thes. 4 Thes. 5. Ut auteÌ n ovuâ⦠hic agendi modus colorem aliquem haberet tanto facilius multââ¦rum politicorum savor aut saltem Tolerantia Remonstranticis noviââ¦atibus conciaretur edituâ⦠est ab Iohanne Vttenbogardo Ecclesialiste tunc Hagâ⦠cometano tractatus de jure supremi Magistratus in Ecclesiasticis Eââ¦ita fuerunt Grotij piet as ordinum Episcopij disputatio de jure magistratus circa sacra Barlei declamatio seu Philippica quaedam in ministros qui orthodoxam receptam religionem tuebantur c. Praeter quae vulgares vernaculi libelli quorum numerus innumerus consiones Remonstrantium nihil aliud quam authoritatem potestatem magistratuum perstrepebant nescio qua invidia orthodoxos pastores ââ¦orumque legitimos coââ¦ventus actiones Ecclesiasticas gravabant Et hac quidem inprimis in dictis duabus provincijâ⦠nam in Geldria aliter canebant aut Mussitabant quod Ill. Curja conatibus ipsorum minimè faveret Idem fere accidebat in Frisia Amstelredami atque alibi ubi magistratus omnia contra Presbyteria pastores non statuebat ex ãâã aut in favorem Remonstrantium Post habitam synodum Dordracenam libelli ipsorum vernaculi longè alio stilo conscripti sunt quin in ipsa Apologia quam tamen magistratibus probari volebant cap. 25. potestatem hanc non parum limitant ac contrahunt quam tamen tam liberaliter ante hac ad mensâ⦠erant b Vedelius de Episcop Constant. magni pag. 3 4 5 6. Arminiani è contrario in excessu peccant Etenim ante Synodum Dordracenam contendebant sub magistratu orthodoxo Ecclesiam per se nullam babere potestatem spiritualem ministros Ecclesiae officio suo defungi nomine magistratus ita ut magistratus quia ipse per alia negotia concionari c. non possit per ministros doceat qui vices ipsius gerant in docendo quem admndum vicarius Trajani Imperatoris vices gerebat sui Imperatoris Et sic ministros non habere suam potesââ¦atem à Christo sed à Magistratu qui quidem solus eam potestatem immediatè à Christo acceperit Gubernationem Ecclesiae assignabant soli magistratui ab ea excludentes ministros nisi in quantum essent vicarij instrumenta seu servi magistratus Speciatim electionem ministrorum seu vocationem item dopositionem tribuebant soli magistraâ⦠c.
that most supreame namely to be in all things guided by the perfect will of God enacted as the most sacred law of all other in the midst of all other laws and Canons Ecclesiasticall in Christian States and Churches throughout the world This is a dangerous principle to goe by in the Church of God excellent for unstable men and wanton wits fitted for libertins and running heads that love no fixed nor setled government and serves well to the humour of a few particular persons but pernitious and sad for Nationall Churches and Kingdomes a reserve indeed and a good back doore to go out at from Brownisme to Anabaptisme and from Anabaptisme to Sebaptisme and from thence to Famialisme and Socinianisme It is a ready prepared way for those that would draw men into errours under the pretence of new light to worke upon and so to lead men from one errour to another till there be no end Which kind of principle of uncertainty in matters of religion the Remonstrants did hold forth in those sad times of the troubles of the Churches in the Netherlands that so they might overturne all formes and harmonies whereby the Churches both within themselves and one towards another might be setled and associated that was one of the scepticall rules of the Arminians dies diem docet But this principle of yours so carried all along in your resolutions seemes to crosse that first principle of the Scriptures the supreame rule and perfect for Church government for in effect it is as much as to hold that the government and way of the Church visible is so uncertaine and doubtfull as that little or none may be positively laid downe and concluded as Iure Divino Now according to this second principle and profession of yours why doe you make such outeries and tragedies in the Church forsaking all Churches for you know not what even for that which you made open and constant professions upon all occasions you would not be bound to and pray how doth this agree with your principle of Church government that it is in all particulars perpetuall and unchangeable whenas you will be changing it so often But certainely when you first fell to your Church-way and took up this principle you were not resolved what way to follow but thought that in some yeares by adding now and then and forsaking this and the other you might attaine to something in the end But let me aske you ought men in the matters of Religion and in things of the Kingdome of Christ to be Scepticks and so irresolved or ought not men to be perswaded in their consciences But I hope the Parliament will observe this great principle you were first acted by and still are in all your Church-way and will see how dangerous the tolerating of your way will be for though you should for present hold nothing much different from the established rule yet being allowed what may you not come to according to this principle how shall any State be sure of you long what you will hold What if you should bring in community of goods baptizing in rivers the holy Kisse into your Assemblies at the beginning and ending of your Ordinances annointing sick persons with oyle it is but according to your principle And we see you make so much of this principle and are so in love with it that you wish it next to your first principle enacted as the most sacred Law of all other to live and walke by it in Christian States and Churches throughout the world and I am perswaded if you would speake out you wish it instead of all other Laws and Canons ãâã You are not content your selves to be Scepticks and loose in the government of the visible Church but you would have all others to be liâ⦠unto you not to make their present judgement and practise a binding law for the future but to make continuall professions upon all occasions of altering But let us consider what may be the reasons of such a passionate desire that this principle were enacted in all Churches I conceive these following 1. That others changing and altering as well as you the imputation of inconstancy and lightnesse might not stick upon you 2. That so you might gaiâ⦠more to your way and Church by possessing them with this principle having this advantage to worke upon and this engine to draw the people with There is nothing you have concluded on but you are free and at choice still to take what seemes most probable to you whereas if men be set downe and resolved they are not so apt to change 3. That so you might not as you pretend block up the way to further light but keep alive that principle of New light and New truths and that men must not content themselves with old truths and the old light but they must seeke out after New light whereas establishment and setling of points upon serious debates and disputes both in points of doctrine with the fundamentals and substantials of discipline as the truths of God and the way for men to walke in upon such Scriptures and reasons will shut out such search as you conceive but this is a mistake to imagine that if any evident light from Scripture should come in afterwards especially considering that reformed Churches in their confessions and Articles hold that particular Churches may erre and may receive increase of knowledge and for matters of Discipline declare particularly that in the accessaries accidentals circumstantials Churches have liberty to change upon inconveniences and different occasions that may arise that they are ever the further off from it But this principle of irresolution and uncertainty in matters of Religion upon the ground of New light and New truths as it is commonly laid downe and drunke in now by men of the Church-way makes men unsatisfied restlesse doubtfull in their present practise and upon searching when they can find none the Devill and their own corruptions will make some and brings them old errors for New truths and men being possest by some that principles are to be new studied and that there are New truths and New light never known before Satan is not wanting to raise up one or other to vent errors under those notions as we see at this day in the Antinomians and the Anabaptists their great argument wherby they take so many being that of New light and New truths which God hath revealed in these times 4. I hope this principle so rooted in you and your frailty in the former way of conformity may be a reserve for you to come off from Independencie to Presbyterie upon the debates of the Assembly and from your Church-way to the way of the reformed Churches which I heartily pray may be the fruit of this principle so openly and constantly profest and am not wholly out of hope especially of some of you Thirdly We are able to hold forth this true and just Apologie unto the world That in the
are so many as they cannot meet in one place but have more meeting places yet in imitation of the Scriptures giving that ground to some who have askt them a reason they make City Churches but one and the Ministers are Ministers in common of them all preaching in their courses in the severall meeting places and governed in common and this they doe to keep nearest to Apostolicall practise whereas now in the Countrey where villages are and the meetings are scattered they doe not all preach to all And to adde this further to shew your unsafe way of practising in the way of your particular Congregations over the reformed Churches and our Churches in England your Congregations as in London where the meeting place is and the Ministers reside is made up of members as of some living in London so of some in Surrey Middlesex Hartfordsheire Essex where they have fixum domicilium being twenty miles asunder and many members meeting but sometimes in a Moneth where neither Ministers can oversee them nor members watch over one another not knowing what the conversation of each other is which yet are brought as the maine grounds for your Church-fellowship which non-residencie of the members from one another and of the officers from so many of the members whether it overthrow not and be not point blank against many of your principles of the Church-way I leave to your selves to judge besides that it is without any Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles the Churches being still stiled according to the places where they lived and met as in Rom. 1. 7. To all that be in Rome beloved of God called to be Saints And so in the Epistles to the Corinthians To the Church of God which is at Corinth And I desire you to give me any Primitive patterne of any who belonged to the Church of Rome Corinth Ierusalem that is were standing members of those Churches who lived and inhabited ten miles twenty five miles c. round about those Cities so that we find here in this third instance namely in the government and discipline of the Churches as well as in the first instance in the qualification of your members that the additament is on your sides and not on the reformed Churches To the third head namely the reasons couched and hinted for your own practise and against the practise and way of the reformed Churches to the first reason I answer as the relating of the state of the questions was not proper so this argument hinted here is not properly expressed for their might be such a Presbyteriall Church and government as is maintained against you namely but two or three distinct meeting places and yet not Churches rising to such a numerous multiplication nor Apostles staying to the setting up of Churches untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication But pray what doe you meane by those expressions We did not imagine but might you not or could you not have imagined it though you did not nor would not and what by this that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all untill they rose to make such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyteriall combination Doe you carry the words in reference only to that numerous multiplication or simply and positively that the Apostles did not stay so long in any City as to set up any Churches at all Now if you will have your words interpreted in the first sense then judge how improper the speech and narration of your mind is for then it should have gone thus that the Apostles should stay the setting up of so many Churches untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication for the denying the setting up of any Churches and at all agree not with the following words untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication the former being a diminitive nay a negative and cannot agree to such an augmentative as the latter besides your first words carried in reference to the following have no strength to proove what you bring them for namely what you allowed and practised or what you disallowed for though the Apostles should not stay so long as the setting up so many Churches as might arise to such a numerous multiplication of severall and sundry Congregations yet there might be such a Presbyteriall classicall Church a Church consisting of more then could meet in one place which is the controversie between us But if you understand your words simply and positively that the Apostles did not stay the setting up of any Churches at all I desire you to remember your own principles and expressions in many books and discourses of your way that the Apostles were the founders of the first Churches as at Corinth Rome and for Ierusalem especially which is the particular Church we most stand upon the Apostles staid long enough there to set up not onely any Churches at all but many to make such a Presbyteriall combination as is stood for as will appeare both by Acts 8. Acts 15. Acts 21. and it is the judgement of Mr Robinson that Ierusalem was never without some of the Apostles there which the two first chapters of the Galathians give a strong ground for besides the many Presbyters that belonged thereunto And so for the Church of Ephesus Paul stayed at one time in those parts three yeares together long enough to make so many Churches as might make a Presbyteriall combination which that of the Acts chap. 20. vers 17 18 25 28 29 31. doe give hints enough for if the nature of an answer to a Narration would permit to draw them out at length To the second reason hinted that those precepts Obey your Elders and them that are over you were to be sure meant of the Pastours and teachers set over them in each particular Congregation respectively and to be as certainely the intendment of the Holy Ghost as in those commands Wives obey your own husbands c. I answer that in Scripture a particular Church consisting of more Congregations then one and the Ministers and Elders feeding them and governing them in common as at Ierusalem and as it is in the Low Countries in Cities there as at Amsterdam c. all the Ministers and Elders are their own Ministers and Elders as the husbands are the owne of their wives and those Scriptures are to be understood of all their Pastors and Ministers and not of some only or in respect of some and not of the rest and it is as certainely the intendment of the Holy Ghost as in that command Wives obey your owne husbands that obey your Elders c. be meant not of some but of them all 2. In Churches by their combination consisting of many Congregations where ordinarily some Pastors and teachers feed some Congregations and not the rest Ministers being fixed some to that Congregation and others to other Congregations yet there being a government in common by all the Presbyters of