bolt Those who were Actors in these matters have long since given account to an Impartial Judg nor have I to do with their intentions but Bellarmin's argument which in two words I conceive little efficacious both because the concurrence of the Council seems questionable farther than as it happens sometimes in consistories where matters are propos'd in some cases for forms sake and shall be executed as they are preresolved however the Cardinals vote And though it were not the Council at most is but a particular Council which according to Bellarmin himself is of no irrefragable and binding authority For the rest 't were strange if the Pope should not find Bishops enough to joyn with the spiritual power when the Emperor wanted not who stuck as fast to the temporal And so much to 8 of the 10 Councils We are now at Paulo majora canamus The two Councils which remain are propos'd with more pomp and in truth challenge a greater respect as being general Councils both The first is that of Lateran under Innocent 3. out of which is urged the famous Canon known by every one and which for as much as concerns us runs Thus But if a temporal Lord required and admonisht by the Church neglect to purge his land from this Heretical filth let him be excommunicated by his Metropolitan and Com-provincial Bishops And if he stand in contempt and make not satisfaction within a year let the Pope be made acquainted that he may from that time declare his Vassals absolved from their fealty to him and expose his lands to be seiz'd on by Catholicks who chacing away the Hereticks may without contradiction possess and preserve it in the purity of Faith saving the right of the principal Lord provided he bring no obstacle nor hindrance to the Premises observing nevertheless the same rule with them who have no principal Lords Bellarmin is wonderfully agog with this What says he would Barclay say here If this be not the voice of the Catholick Church where shall we find it and if it be as most truly it is he that out of contempt as Barclay hears it not is he not to be esteemed a Heathen and a Publican and in no manner a Christian and pious If the Pope have not power on earth to dispose of temporals even to the deposition of those Princes who either are Hereticks themselves or any way favour Hereticks why at the setting out this Canon did none of so great a number make opposition Why of so many Embassadors of Emperors and Kings not one who durst so much as mutter These Parasites to temporal Princes were not yet sprung up who under pretence of establishing temporal Kingdoms take away the eternal Kingdom from those whom they flatter I marry here 's a fit of triumphant zeal But I suppose if he had cast a little water on the flame it would have been hot enough for the occasion This Parasites and Flatterers Heathens Publicans and Impious are expressions a little too zealous In what a case are they who condemn'd all this zeal and had they not had more respect to his Purple then his argument in all likelyhood had burnt it too and yet had as good ears in the opinion of the world as Bellarmin and could hear the voice of the Catholick Church as soon But to be serious what Barclay would have said here I cannot tell but I suppose if Death had not stopt his mouth he would have said something For this Canon is no such secret that he could be imagin'd ignorant of it or unprovided against it At least his son did find something to say for him to which I can no more tell what Bellarmin would say then he could what Barclay would say to the Council I shall have occasion to mention part of what he says by and by In the mean time as this Council never fails to be layd in the way of all who travel this road people have several turns to avoid it There are who question whether any thing at all was defined there at least in a Conciliar way or if any thing were defin'd that the world was duly made acquainted with the business For which besides that some Historians expresly say nothing was concluded they have these presumptions The Canons which we have discover by their stile that they were not made in the Council They run some of them in this manner It was piously provided in the Lateran Council 'T is known 't was forbid in the Lateran Council c. which are phrases very unlikely to have been used by the Council if that fram'd the Decrees Again the whole authority of this Council rests as far as I see upon one Cochlaeus The Councils had been set out and this omitted either not known or not procurable by him who managed the business Against another Edition this Cochlaeus furnisht the Press with the Copy which we now have Whence he had it himself I know not but methinks the credit of a private man is a weak support for a matter of this consequence Besides how much time ought in reason be allow'd to a Conciliar discusion and determination of threescore Canons Carenza has threescore and ten and somewhere I have heard of another number which disagreement by the way is a suspicious thing M. Paris tells us the Council was summoned for the first of Nov. and met I suppose at the day The Pope first makes an exhortation afterwards causes 60 Chapters to be read and concludes with a second exhortation concerning the H. Land All this as far as can be gather'd by him past in one day which if it did the Council could not possibly contribute more than the hearing to any thing Besides he plainly says these 60 Chapters to some appear'd easy to others burthensome which is very far from a Conciliar approbation Now he says not precisely when the Council ended but 't is apparent by him that it lasted not long The Pope in this Council at the Kings instance suspends the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury This suspension bears date pridie nonas or 4th Nov. Besides he vacats the election of his Brother Simon Langton to the Sea of York and excommunicates the Barons of England These sentences are not recorded as the other but in liklyhood past at the same time M. Paris mentions immediately the end of the Council Quo facto after which says he two of the three Agents which the King of England had there returned to bring him the good news They found him at Rochester from whence he marched to St. Albans and came thither time enough to have the suspension of the Arch-Bishop attested by the seal of the Convent 13 Calend. Jan. or 20 Decemb. By this account how long could the Council last Or how much time could be spent in duly weighing so many Canons some of such importance when men who had seen the conclusion of the Council which began not before Nov. were in England by the 20th of December
I believe those who are of a contrary judgment will be convinc'd by what I have said neither did I go about to convince them My business was to satisfie you not to dogmatize And I hope you will perceive your Argument so answer'd that if those unquiet Spirits of fear and diffidence continue still to hant you the blame is not to be imputed to me Of two propositions which you assum'd to fix a power Paramount in the Pope upon our Faith I have shew'd a Catholick may safely deny either of both 'T is at his choice to take either way and any one does his business If he will deny a temporal Regality in Christ the difficulty is cut up by the root since a Vicar can not with any shadow of pretence challenge more then was in the Principal himself If not willing to meddle with that question he will take the other way and affirm that whatever power Chrit had he left only Spiritual to Peter and his Successors the difficulty is as fully cleared A Catholick take my word may unreprovably hold either or both and that you may have better security against your fears then my word can give you I have shewed you both maintain'd by those whom Catholicks are not permitted to reprove If all this be not enough to quiet your suspicious let me add that if you consider well you will find that of all men the Principles of Catholciks can least endure the contrary Doctrine Ask of your Fore-fathers walk in the antient Paths avoid novelties and the like are Maximes so known and universally receieved amongst them that who is known to contradict them is known so far to swerve from the acknowledged grounds of Catholick Religion Now when the authority of unquestionable antiquity is of the one side and on the other that of Authors both late and few and of no extraordinary credit a Catholick who knows what he does can so little doubt which part to take that I think he is not excusable if he so much as doubt or at least not otherwise then as zeal is excused by blindness None have that veneration for antiquity and Fathers which Catholicks pretend for they look upon them as the men who have begot them in the Gospel from whence they give them the name of Fathers as the most considerable Pillars of the Church as the principal Persons on whose attestation the Rule of Faith and Stability of Religion depends After the sacred Books of Scripture written by Divine Inspiration to which no writing of Man can be equall'd nor so much as compar'd we Reverence in the next place the Writings of the Fathers which we think useful too and the most useful of any to the understanding of the Scripture of which we hold them the best Interpreters We universally blame those of other Communions for preferring the obscurity of private interpretations before the clear light of Tradition And all these things are known and acknowledg'd by every body Wherefore since the great Lights of the Church St. Agustin and St. Hierom and St. Cyril and St John Chrysostom and St. Bernard and the rest shine clearly out and with a joint consent unanimously conspire into the same Doctrine none are so blamable as Catholicks if they oppose it And such men as Comitolus and Sermarinus and the like put into the contrary ballance weigh so little that t is shameful even that they should enter in The truth is the world goes otherwise then sharp-sighted men would think it should or could else t is not easie to conceive how it should be possible there should be found amongst those of our principles who should stand in opposition to the Fathers All that can be said is that worldly policy sometimes makes a little too bold with Christian simplicity and that preposterous zeal is very blind and therefore a very dangerous Guide And I shall take the liberty to tell you that understanding Catholicks who consider the way they take see if it were followed in other things it would mine Catholick Religion and that the men indeed perhaps by the priviledge of well meaning ignorance are Catholicks but the way is not a Catholick way Thanks be to God there are not many who walk in it and those who do I believe consider not what they do For sure I am that knowingly to sleight the Reverence due to Sacred Antiquity and set up new Masters in opposition to the Fathers of Christianity and Doctors of the Church agrees very ill with a Catholiek Spirit In fine as men will be men and God must make the World another thing then it is if we expect that all should do as they ought you will find among Catholicks some who hold the contrary Opinion but none who hold this reprovable And this I say the more confidently because I mistake very much if it be reprovable even amongst the Jesuits themselves who yet are thought the greatest Favourers of the Papal power At least I know they cannot reprove it without reproving their own best and most famous Authors Read Bellarmin de Rom. Pontif. the fourth Chapter of the fifth Book and Maldonat upon 27 Mat. and see if they do not both expresly hold and strongly prove the Doctrine of the Fathers and so far that the latter says people would make Christ a temporal King whether he will or no c. against his express declaration and that before a Court of Justice They are too long to be transcribed But if you take the pains to read them since that is safe enough from being reproved which there is no body to reprove I hope your suspicions will be at quiet However I think it but seasonable that I should and be permitted after so long a journey to rest Yours c. FINIS ERRATA PAge 3. line 13. read particular l. 36. r. were p. 7. l. 5. r. you cite p. 8. l. 1. for he r. his l. 5. r. enterfere l. 32. may r. my p. 10. l. 37. r. no extraordinary p. 17. l. 29. r. the Servants ear p. 18. l. 26. r. because he defiled l. 33. r. yet he gave l. 35. r. Rabanus p. 21. l. 6. r. dogmatically l. 9. r. any principle l. 11. r. his side p. 22. l. 8. r. suppose l. 28. r. branches p. 23. l. 22. r. Kings p. 24. l. 16. r. penetrat p. 27. l. 22. dele to l. 28. r. were disposed p. 30. l. 18. r. his answer signify'd l. ult r. resolvedness p. 31. l. 28. r. Creation By. The Fifth and Sixth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR THE Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun and at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1673. FRIEND I Must confess I am something better at ease at least I
But he was more vigilant than stood with your profit Cardinal Bellarmine was then alive and he writes a letter to Blackwell perswading him to make amends for his fault which he compares to the falls of St. Peter and Marcellinus whereof one deny'd Christ the other committed Idolatry The Pope himself sends a Breve to the English Catholics and forbids the Oath and when they remained yet unsatisfied and made some exceptions of some wrong information and the like usual in such cases justifies the first Breve by a second and so utterly dashes the Oath that ever since the generality of Catholics have refused it and those few who continued constant in defence of the lawfulness of it were look't upon little better than Apostates The great maintainer of it Withrington a learned and honest man was so briskly prosecuted that he was fain to take sanctuary in a Prison and glad he scap't so If after this these things must still pass for probabilities probabilities are things in which I have been much mistaken for I thought a man had been at liberty to take which side he pleas'd but I see a man may as safely maintain Heresie as that side of these probabilities which displeases the Pope Neither can I see how the blame can be taken from him and cast upon private men For private men would have gon right enough if He would have let them alone and had not oversway'd them by his authority and an authority so absolute and merely such that neither He alledges nor I could ever see any reason to conclude that Oath unlawful even in your own grounds In the year 47 when upon the interposing of the Army under the command of the then Sir Thomas Fairfax it was hoped the difference betwixt King and Parliament and disorders of the Kingdom might have been composed and Catholics comprehended in the general settlement in case they could vindicate their principles from inconsistency with civil government Three Propositions were framed by the Catholics to that purpose importing that the Pope or Church had no power to absolve from obedience to civil Government or dispence with word or oath made to Heretics or authorise any to injure other men upon pretence of their being excommunicated c. The Priests were consulted about the lawfulness of these Propositions They met some of most orders amongst them and all agreed they were lawful The Laity rested in their judgment and the most considerable of those who were at hand subscrib'd them This was not very public and at a pretty distance and if it were known a body would think there was no great harm in it unless it be made prejudicial to Christianity for men to live with their neighbours as honest men and good subjects should do But they thought otherwise at Rome The vigilant old Gentleman there who must be pretended ignorant of what passes in Italy and at Rome got an inkling condemned whether the proceedings or propositions I know not for he was so wise as to keep his censure to himself and never let it see light and punisht such of the Actors as were willing to be punisht I know of one a principal one too who was sent beyond sea and there did penance in a house of his own Order for the grievous fault of having been honester than the Pope would have had him and I presume made good resolutions of amendment and becoming a new man and a pious knave for the future And I suppose the rest did the same unless chance or peradventure stubbornness excuâ—â—d them Unhappy Catholicks amongst whom 't is punishable even to be honest How truly has a learned man observ'd that you have the choice of being thought either bad subjects at home or bad Christians at Rome But you must feed upon the fruit of your own wayes In the mean time pray lay the blame of these things no more upon private men when the Pope so manifestly and industriously takes it upon himself and He may reserve you know what he pleases But take yet another instance and that even at this time upon the Stage Upon the restauration of his Sacred Majesty the Catholic Irish Clergy hoping to obtain the effect of some agreements made in the time of the troubles which the then Lord of Ormond the King 's Lieutenaut there commissionated a certain person now living and sent him over into England to sollicit those pretensions in their behalf And finding a profession of Allegeance necessary to their business they framed one which they sent to their Procurator to be made use of in their names and is now in every bodies hands and generally known by the name of the Irish Remonstrance This Profession not appearing sufficiently authentick the Procurator causes a meeting of such of the Irish Clergy as were then at London and informs them of the necessity of a general subscription to it One Bishop and three and twenty other very considerable men subscrib'd it some seven or eight held back professing yet the thing both Catholic as to the doctrin and lawful as to the action but asking what they should get by it But the game being once a foot it was presently and hotly follow'd by the Popes Ministers Cardinal Francis Barbarin at Rome the Nuntio at Paris and Internunce at Bruxels interpose with all concern imaginable They speak they write against it pretend it condemn'd before hand by two Popes meaning the Brief of Paulus V. about the Oath of Allegeance and the censure of the three Propositions by Innocent X. which never saw light and prevail with the Divines of Lovain to censure it They countenance they encourage they promote he Dissenters and brand the Subscribers with the odious names of Seditious and Schismatic and Heretic and Apostate One and he a venerable man was told to his face He had better have died than subscribed But the greatest bustle was about the Procurator himself Him they set upon with all Arts they tempt him with fair offers and the promise of very considerable preferments That failing they persecute him all they can they make his Superiors for he is a Religious man cite and excommunicate him all diffame him and at last have brought things to that pass that few believe him a Catholic and those few keep their charitable thoughts to themselves for fear of being infected with the dangerous Contagion So that so far as I can percieve if the Subscribers were the honester men the Dissenters were the wiser If these opinions must still pass for probable about which Divines may busie themselves without interresting the Church you have a strange and unintelligible way of government amongst you Methinks probabilities should have equal dealing and Divines left to scuffle about them as well as they can without partiality on either side So I think 't is with your other Probabilities in the hot disputes betwixt the Jesuists and Dominicans Scotists and Thomists and the rest Let them beat the Pulpits as hard as they
to satifie them all And as the Schools go now it is not hard to say almost any thing As men are of several tempers I will not deny but some may be truly perswaded of your Doctrines and defend them with an upright conscience thinking that to exalt the Pope is truly advantageous to Religion and beneficial to the World But I believe you will not find many so qualified Those you have named are some the Popes own Subjects most Italians or Spaniards upon whom He is known to have particular influence and if we judge that in this exalting the Pope they might have an eye to the preferment of themselves I think it will be no rash judgment Of latter times those have appeared the chief sticklers in this quarrel who are thought to have the greatest dependance upon Rome So that of all produced and produceable in behalf of those opinions I deceive my self if the number be not shamefully inconsiderable against whom there lies not a just suspicion of interest and of whom it may not reasonably be judged that Hopes or Fears or something besides pure Conscience swayed their judgments And Interest you know is a just exception against a Witness in all Courts As for private men what would you have them do Consider that all Catholics look upon the Pope as the chief Bishop in God's Church and supreme Pastor of the whole Flock If they hear any thing said over-lashingly of him can it be expected they should be forward to speak what they think til a due occasion urges them Or have less respect for him than common civilitie uses to every body For when any thing is said advantageous to a person with whom we converse if we believe it not we keep our thoughts to our selves and think it rudeness to oppose it to their faces Besides as I said at first this medling of private men with the concern of Princes is the Flies playing with the Candle Withrington quite burnt his wings Walsh has fairly sing'd them and if people learn wariness by the harms of other men I conceive they are not blameable As frightful and threatning as the Idea is which you have made of this danger no Prince that I know thinks it great enough to deserve that they should interpose and I think the man very foolishly wise who will pretend to understand their concerns better than themselves or better know what is fit to be done People of our private Sphere see but one thing Princes see that one thing in likelihood better than we and a hundred more of which we never dream and till they stir themselves for private men to obtrude their politic Ignorance upon them is so far from laudable that it is well if it be pardonable neither will their forwardness signifie more than an over busie diligence and peradventure saucy unquietness The old Monks wise counsel Sinere res vadere ut vadunt is as necesiary in the world as a Cloyster Besides for English Catholics in particular they have somewhat more reason to keep silence while their speaking is sure to be discountenanced on the one side and not sure to be protected on the other You may perceive by Caron's Collection that Catholicks are so much mealy mouthed men towards the Pope when there is fit occasion to speak what they think and God forbid that Forreiners should be better Subjects than English men I am sure they were Catholics who declared in Parliament that the imperial Crown of England is and at all times has been free from all subjection to the Pope And provided the Statute of Praemunire against such abuses as were then found inconvenient And they were Catholicks who refused to repeal this Statute in the days of Queen Mary when other Laws made against the Popes Authority were taken away But if you will have a touchstone of the fidelity of English Catholics look a little upon the year 88. The Pope had stretched his Authority as far as it would go and proceeded to Excommunication Deposition and Absolution of his Subjects from Obedience to her down right Commands to assist her Enemies and this Authority was backt by the Power of a great Prince in their thought and language invincible Besides the Title of the Queen born in time of a Marriage declared lawfull by the Pope was not free from dispute which carried the inclination of Catholics to the Title of Scotland since happily introduced and which I hope will long happily continue and this was if I mistake not the true reason of the jealousie and severity of those times against them Notwithstanding the unusual concurrence of so many and so great temptations They stood firm in their Allegeance and both our own and forrein Writers testifie that neither the subtil Arts of the Politic Spaniard or the enforcement of the Popes Authority could prevail to make any Party here but that the most learned and esteemed of the Priests by a solemn and authentic Writing acknowledged the Queen notwithstanding she was excommunicated and deposed by name to have still the same Authority and power as before and as much as any of her Predecessors and the Layty chearfully and universally offered to hazard their lives in defence of their Prince and Country and that as private Souldiers ther being too much suspicion in the jealousie of those times to pretend to commands In fine the Spaniards were so ill satisfied with them that the Duke of Medina Admiral in that expedition at his return plainly told the Dutchess of Feria an English Woman of the Family of the Dormirs that had he prevailed no difference had been made betwixt Catholics and others more than what the Sword could have found Of later times the whole Nation is obliged to bless God for the happy fidelity of some of them and we had still been groaning under our late miseries if this traiterous Religion had not principled even poor men into a fidelity stronger than the temptation of Gold And 't is not like the men who act thus would refuse to speak in fit occasion Things have been written even since the return of his Sacred Majesty which have been peradventure more zealous than seasonable but however which sufficiently discover the inclination of Catholics to say all that can be expected with reason from them when the conjuncture is proper In the mean time to consider the Dilemma you so earnestly recommend to me I must tell you it concludes not We are inexcusable say you if we renounce not those Positions when without injury to the Churches Authority or our own conscience we may Why so F A is there no excuse for an action but this that 't is unlawful People before they do any thing use to consider the Why as well as the What and examine not only whether the action be allowable but whether it be convenient But not to insist on this I will offer you a fair bargain Do you your part and I will do mine make it reasonable make
it fitting to do what you desire and I will do it And that you may be satisfied I am in earnest I promise you faithfully to renounce these Positions as fully and solemnly as you can desire whenever you shall make it come to pass that so to do is my duty and not onely a bare gratification of your curiosity and in the mean time assure you I heartily abhor them and alwayes did The Child lyes now at your door F. A If you truly desire the thing should be done provide a good Why we should do it For my own part I tell you truly I shall take it very unkindly if after this I pasâ— still undistinguisht among those whom you think deserve suspicion and distrust and since you have urged me to this Declaration conceiving you are obliged to take care that it be not wholly useless Pray let me put another Dilemma to you Either your credit is great enough to preserve us from the inconvenience of speaking plainly or it is not If not we are blameless who are not forward to run into inconveniences to no purpose if it be 't is you are blameable who urge us to an inconvenience which you can but will not remedy Mean while to be ill lookt upon and ill treated if we make our selves appear honest Catholics and not so much as have protection for being Catholics is to be acquitted of Burglary and found guilty of Felony Methinks it is something unreasonoble to make the maintenance of pernicious Doctrines the ground why we should be liable to punishment and keep us every jot as liable if we disclaim them Not but that we are very sensible of our present quiet and bless and pray for the merciful Authors of it But yet the Law is the Law still And it is very uneasie to have no better security either of Estate or Life than a bare stop to the course of the Law which may be removed at pleasure For my own part as I am but John Porter so I hope 't is a modest and pardonable ambition if I wish to continue so with security And since an extravagance in others which I cannot help may make you jealous even of my Frock and Cords I shall gladly Endeavour to cure that jealousie by any remedies which Reason can prescribe or Honesty take But till you can procure thus much favour to urge a testimony of honesty so ungrateful to him to whom we owe and must pay a fitting respect and when we have given it to continue us still in the condition of Knaves is hard in it self and harder from you who have profest so often that you punish not for Religion but Treason Religion indeed is the most comfortable cause of suffering and that which if I must suffer I would chuse But yet suffering is suffering still let the cause be what it will And though I esteem Patience very much and desire the Vertue with all my heart I know not why I should desire the occasions to exercise it and believe it is better not to need live Pigeons than to have them Coming to review what I have writ I find the hasty course of my pen intent upon the main body of the discourse has past over several branches which deserve to be particularly taken notice of As when you say that so the mischievous Doctrines be allowed it is all one whether they be allowed by the material Church or the formal To which I reply the difference is very great For were the Church truly engaged for them there were no remedy but either to own the Doctrines or disown rhe Church But if she be not engaged for them as she is not one may detest the Doctrines as I do and yet remain in the Church Again when you make Church and State equivalent I conceive the difference appears sufficiently in what has been said State signifies a body of men united under such a Government and such Laws and what the Governours do the State is said to do for to the Governour it belongs to command in public concerns to the rest to obey Church signifies a body of men living according to Doctrines and Laws establisht by Christ and because as men they cannot but have an act upon other Principles too those actions only and Principles which are derived from Christ can properly belong to the Church in the rest they are to be lookt upon as men not as faithful Besides you have produced some few who have the boldness to entitle those Errors as gross as they are to Faith and make the contrary Heresie To which I answer There are a great many strange things in the world and peradventure few stranger than that men should get the reputation of learning and yet not know so much as what Faith is or at least the means by which it has come to us The Regia Via as Councils call it of Faith is both plain in it self and plainly recorded in the Monuments of the Church and that people should think to come to it by their own little by-ways and make Faith of that which is publicly and unreprovably contradicted by the far greatest part of the present Church and has no footsteps at all in Antiquity and yet pass for learned men is a thing I have more disposition to admire than unriddle farther then in the short hint I gave of the abuse of that term by a wrong application If ought else have scap'd my observation by what I have said I presume you will easily guess what I would say to it Give me Leave to end with reflecting a little upon the difference there is betwixt these opinions maintained by the Adversarys of the Church of Rome and maintained by her Members For to flatter neither side Iliacos intra muros peccatur extra You communicate with deposing-principled men as well as we though thanks be to God neither true Protestant nor understanding Catholic communicate with the Principles Now for our Church I have shewn why this extravagance of some of her members is not imputable to her and hope you perceive how unreasonable it is that she would answer for the deviations of those who will not walk in her way nor make use of her Rule Some Popes indeed have behaved themselves otherwise than I wish they had But since they are Princes as well as Bishops I conceive it will not be thought strange if all great men are not Saints and if Humane Policy and a desire to encrease their greatness sway with them as with other Princes If they attempt upon the rights of others Kings I hope know well enough that they bear not the Sword in vain and can as well tell how to defend themselves and their Subjects from wrongs incident from them as from other men and sure I am that Catholics are so far from being restrained by their Religion that it obliges them to stand by their respective Sovereings in defence of his just Rights against the Pope as effectually
should be Catholick enough sure and never boggle at any thing should be offer'd me But to leave Jeasting let me tell you though I know not how you will relish the Complement you write so well that you must needs write again I may possibly hereafter give you more trouble upon this Subject when these fluttering Fancies of mine are setled into a steady Judgement I know not how satisfactory your Answer may prove when I have fully examin'd it If it do not I reserve my self the liberty to tell you so and in the mean time conceive you could not chuse a more useful Argument then this of the Popes power He was a man famous for wisdom who E. Salisbury Treatise of mitigation p. 20. as I find cited in one of your own Authors was long troubled that some clear explication of the Papal Authority had not hitherto been made by some publick or definitive Sentente and this both that those Princes who acknowledge it may be secure from the fear and suspicions of continual Treasons and Attempts of Assasins and those Princes who do not acknowledge it and yet desire to think favourably of their Subjects may certainly know how far they may rely upon their fidelity in temporal matters who differ from them in what concerns their Conscience Consider besides what confusion what Wars and Bloodshed we find in History upon the contests betwixt the Spiritual and Temporal Power People distracted betwixt the fear of making Shipwrack of their Faith or their Fortunes know not how to avoid either Heresy on the one side or Rebellion on the other If the World were once well inform'd of the just bounds of those two Powers and knew wherein they consisted and how far they extended such contests would either not happen or if they did People would readily know which part to take However it be pray satisfie me at least in this particulars The sâ—â—â—stance of your Answer consists in this that the Doctrines I objected belong not to your Faith or Church But does not this belong to your Faith That the Pope is the Vicar of Christ upon Earth I think you would not take him for a Catholick who should deny it Now if Christ gave to the Pope the Power he had himself since He without doubt had all both Spiritual and Temporal Power how can you avoid being oblig'd and that by an Article of your Faith to acknowledge that the Pope likewise has all manner of Power and may justly and lawfully do all those things which your Letter calls the exorbitant fancies of private men This Friend exceeds the bounds of probable opinions and intrenches strongly on your Faith Wherefore you shall not deny either my friendship or importunity an Answer to it But answer so if possibly you can that these doubts or umbrages or what you perhaps may find a better name for then I can give a reason of may trouble me no longer Will you permit me to deal plainly with you I suspect you have said more then you are allow'd to say and more then I should be allow'd to hold if I were of your Communion The Jews ware not more zealous to make Proselytes then you are and what know I but you may have a design upon me and say more what you think may induce me to think favourably of your Religion then what your Religion gives you warrant to say Let me therefore intreat you to say nothing but what a good Catholick may unreprovably say and what I may be secure shall not be he disallow'd by your Church And since I can promise you no other fruit of your labour for I do not think you hope in earnest to make a Proselyte of me accept the assurance I give you that you shall at least firmly bind to your Service Yours c. FRIEND YOU know the power of your friendship over me and you make use of it For ought I see mine is just the case of handsome-handed Tom Fool whom that praise betray'd to so much labour that he complain'd his dexterity had almost cripled him Pray God my easiness or your importunity give me not one day more cause of complaint then he had But since you will not be deny'd 't is best to obey you without more a do For your unquietness I could laugh at it if its deeper root did not give me too much cause of grief As sincere as you are you are prejudic'd Friend and this unquitness of yours is the strugling betwixt reason which you plainly see and a passion so secret that 't is hid even from your self which hinders you from entertaining freely what you see Not but that I know your candour well and am enough perswaded you are not conscious of opposing reason wilfully and would be your Compurgator of sin against the Holy Ghost But thus it happens Ever since the change of Religion and the bad attempts of some Catholicks in the days of Queen Elizabeth heightned by the horrid Powder Treason it has been perhaps the direction of the State however the employment of Pulpits to give bad impressions of Catholicks and their Religion And this has been done so long and so universally and so vehemently that since you find the effect of it I may reasonably judge there is none who has not his share and who has not found an Idea of Catholicks more according to what they have been represented then what they are As the Nature and circumstances of men are different and some are fram'd to a sweet uprightness others to an unwayward crosness Again some converse much with good Catholicks some with bad ones some with none and who have no other knowledge of them but as they hear of strange animals in Afric or the Indies so men are differently affected towards them But I believe there is none who has not more or less of the bad Idea so much endeavour'd to be fixt upon them and that no hearty Protestant can hear things said to the advantage of Catholicks or their Religion without that unquietness at least which you find in your self It were to be wisht and perhaps expected from the Charity of Pulpits that the example of that wise and merciful King against whom that Treason was plotted might have been followed and the Innocent distinguisht from the Guilty But whatever might or should have been we see what is done and you find the effect in your self whereof that you may not think reason the cause consider a little that while we pass generally for ignorant stupid people led blindly into all the follies to which our blinder Guides our Priests conduct us you object craft and subtlety to me Reason Friend is more uniform and more of a piece and objects not so crosly For what you say of our Jewish zeal of gaining Proselytes I must avow to you I am of St. Pauls mind and wish non tantum se sed etiam omnes qui audiunt hodie fieri tales qualis ego sum exceptis vinculis
to understand a power given to absolve from the Bond of Debt Again c. 14. To Peter was given spiritual power onely to remit sins nor can be do any thing in temporals but in foro conscientiae Aegid Rom. Q. de utraque potestat art 3. It is to be understood that Christ had a threefold power over bodies souls and temporal goods The first he us'd by curing infirmities c. The second viz. Spiritual he both us'd and delegated as much as is necessary and expedient for the good of Souls The third He neither us'd nor gave but rather forbad both to Peter and the other Apostles as is said And concludes In the Commission given to Peter his Vicar we read not temporal but onely spiritual power committed to him I will give Thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven he said not and Dominion over worldly things Wherefore he presently adds as explicating himself to mean onely spiritual power Whatever you shall bind c. Ambros Catharin upon Rom. 13. That the pope is Vicar of Christ is nothing to purpose to make us believe he has power given him to rule all the World in temporals It rather perswades us such power was not given him because Christ refus'd it and as he was man had it not in the World for after the Resurrection 't was said all power is given me c. But in this World he was subject to secular powers Wherefore he left the Pope Vicar of that Kingdom which was given him by his Father while he liv'd on Earth namely the spiritual Kingdom over his Sheep c. Otherwise if he be the Vicar of Christ absolutely according to all the power which Christ had he should have power over Angels and the Blessed which is ridiculous And again These powers are different from one another and no man can usurp either at his pleasure and to think and teach otherwise is most seditious and most horrible Anton. de Rosell de Protestat Imp. Pap. p. 1. c. 38. Whence I conclude 't is Heresie and Madness to say that the universal Administration of Temporals is or can be in the Pope Greg. Haimbarg de prim Pap. Whence it appears 't is a fable and invention that is writ in the Decretals that Popes have the plenitude of power givem them and such a Dominion that they are over Kings and Princes in Temporals They are smart fellowes these Schoolmen and speak home and yet are good Catholicks for all that and acknowledg'd to be so neither are they otherwise reprov'd or reprovable then as Scholars take the freedom to censure one another Mean time since a Catholick may unreprovably hold that the two powers were distinguisht by Christ and joyn'd by the Devil the temporal committed to Princes and the spiritual to Bishops who if they be Souldiers of God are not to meddle with secular business that while Bishops dispense divine Princes are to administer humane things that to the Clergy belong onely spirituals and the Popes power has nothing to do with possessions that dominion is forbidden him and onely the Rod of direction granted c. I hope you may quiet your fears and not suspect I shall either be disown'd or reprov'd by my Church if upon the security of so much Authority I deny your first Proposition and affirm the Popes Vicarship is confin'd to spirituals and that it hinders not Princes from being Gods Vicars as well as himself who if they manage all their trust are accountable onely to him second to whom they are and except whom they have none above them I mean in their own kind Onely I would not have you boggle at this that the Pope is not every where expresly nam'd For though the Order of Government require that the Head should have more power then an inferior Member as the Commission of a General must be larger then that of a private Captain yet I think none will doubt but the power of the Pope and the rest of the Clergy is all of the same kind and the more which belongs to him as Head of the Church signifies more of the same sort of actions not power of another nature But because I am to say nothing of my self let St. Leo tell you this and more in a Sermon inserted into the Churches Office on the Feast of St. Peters Chair at Antioch where speaking of the Confession of St. Peter and the promise made him upon it The force indeed says he of this power past into the other Apostles and the Constitution of this Decree of the keys descended to all the Princes of the Church but 't is not without cause that what is intimated to all is commanded to one For this is therefore particularly entrusted to Peter because the example of Peter is propos'd to all the Governors of the Church And so much to the first Proposition which though I have abstained from treating dogmatially yet I have said or rather shew'd you that others say what may abundantly quiet your fears and that a Catholick who confines the Popes power onely to spirituals is so far from contradicting my principle receiv'd amongst Catholicks that he has the warrant of great I had almost said all Authority on this side at least so much that is not well consistent with Catholick principles to oppose it But I pray mistake me not for though I have said nothing of my self yet I would not be misinterpreted so much as to have alledg'd ought which might be thought to question any not onely spiritual but even temporal power which may justly belong to the Church and which when it does she may without doubt justly use But 't is one thing to have power by agreement of men and another by Commission from Christ and I would say no more then St. Bernard has said before me that however such things may belong to the Church yet not by right of Apostleship Your Argument assum'd that a Vicar had the same power with him whose Vicar he is what I have alledg'd was only to answer that and as I am not oblig'd so I meant not to go farther What I shall adde in examination of your second Proposition you will perceive is more to satisfie your Friendship then your Argument for whether Christ had temporal Dominion or no if he gave it not to the Pope the Pope is never the near and your Argument sufficiently cleer'd Notwithstanding since I would not give you cause to complain I neglect any thing you propos'd let us consider how far this is true that Christ had all temporal as well as spiritual power But Friend I hope your feud to formalities is abated for I must tell you beforehand there is no discoursing on this subject without distinguishing the God from the Man Yow know in Christ the distinct properties of both Natures were so united that they both made but one Sacred Person to which person nothing can be deny'd which can with truth be affirm'd of God and none
Tract 12. in Mat. Jesus taking occasion from the two Brothers who sought to be advanc'd above the other Apostles with indignation of the rest settles the Rule of justice to the faithfull how a man may obtain the first place with God The Princes of the Gentiles not content only to Rule their Subjects seek violently to Command them But with you who are mine this shall not be Least they perhaps who seem to have Principality in the Church should domineer over their Brethren or exercise power upon them For as all Carnal things are by necessity not willingness and Spiritual by willingness not necessity so the principality of Spiritual Princes ought to be placed in the Love not Corporal fear of their Subjects And after he had spoken much of the Humility befitting Prelates least he should be thought an enemy to their true Power he so Answers that Objection that withal he explicates wherein that Power consists Adding This I say not to debase the Ecclesiastical Principality For it is sometimes fit according to the Apostolical Instruction publickly to rebuke sinners that the rest may be afraid It is sometimes fit he should use his Power What is that and deliver the Sinner over to Satan to the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ Yet this is seldome to be done For the Vnquiet are to be reprehended the Pusillanimous to be comforted the Weak to be sustained Magnanimity shew'd to all Reprehension then and Excommunication are the things in which Origen thought the Spiritual Power consisted S. Ambrose Orat. in Auxent Against Weapons and Souldiers of the Goths I may grieve I may weep I may sigh My Weapons are my Fears for such are the defence of a Priest To resist in any other manner I neither ought nor can S. Bernard de Consid L. 2. S. Peter could not give what he had not what he had that he gave the care as I said over the Churches Did he give Dominion too Hear himself Not domineering saies he in the Clergy but being made the Example of the flock And that you may not think this was said only for humility not for truth it is the saying of our Lord in the Gospel The Kings of Gentiles have dominion over them and who have Power upon them are called beneficial and infers but you not so 'T is plain Dominion is forbid to Apostles Go you now and dare to usurp either with Dominion the Apostleship or with the Apostleship Dominion Aut Dominans Apostolatum aut Apostolicus Dominatum You are plainly forbid the one If you will have both together you will lose both Otherwise think not your self exempted from the number of those of whom God complains so they have reigned but not by me They have been Princes and I knew them not Now if you will reign without God you have glory but not with God Dominion is forbidden Ministry is commanded Again Girt your sword to you the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God And L.4 Set upon them with the Word not the sword S. Anselm in 26 Mat. Note that there are two swords in the Church one material the other spiritual but the spiritual constrains only the willing the material the unwilling too And note withall that the Saint by Church means materially not formally that is that amongst Christians and the faithfull as well as Infidels there is the power of life and death and they are of the Church who have it not that it belongs to them as they are of the Church Pet. de Aliaco de Resumpt Concl. 1. answering some Arguments brought to prove that the spiritual Power extends it self to Temporals To all these things may be said that they are to be understood not of the judgement of Coaction but the judgement of Discretion nor that they belong to the Clergy not by natural and divine Right but humane Laws and concession of Kings or Emperors And Concl. 4. To those who teach the Clergy may make Laws in Civil matters and Rules according to which Princes are obliged to judge and govern I insist not upon it because they say it purely voluntarily and without alledging Authentical Scripture Again C. de Reform Laic Princ. Consi 6. The Church cannot temporally constrain Princes to reform these things Gul. Oâ—hum Dial. Par. 1. L. 6. C. 9. The Pope as Vicar of Christ has Power of Excommunication but not to inflict any greater punishment Joan. Ferus L. 3. Comment in Mat. 16. I will give Thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven These are not material Keys but signifie metaphorically Power Peter therefore receiv'd Power not any earthly Power that he could give or take away or alienate Kingdoms c. but the Power to bind and loose to remit and retain sins to open and shut and this not arbitrarily neither but as a Minister to execute the will of God This Ferus by the way is in the Index of prohibited Books but these Commentaries printed at Rome are excepted out of the prohibition which because I have not I thought convenient to tell you so Anton. de Rosell de Potest Imp. Pap. Par. 1. C. 38. Whence is gathered that Secular Power never was in Christ nor his Successors which is confirm'd by the Authority of Bede when upon that of St. Mat. he says Amongst you who are mine violent dominion shall not be For as all carnal things are placed in necessity spirituals in voluntariness so spiritual Princes have their principalities in love not fear But those who have carnal Coercion should fear that of the Apostle Rom. 13. If you do ill fear namely the Secular Power because their weapons are wars The sword therefore is not permitted to the Pope This Rosellis is got into the Index too Donec expurgetur of which if I had reflected when I writ my last I had told you so much But because he cites V. Bede who it seems had learnt his Doctrine from Origen and St. Ambrose I put him in I see these Authors freely cited by Catholicks and while they speak conformably to the Fathers and Popes themselves know not why they should be rejected You have in the former Letter from Leo 4 that corporal punishments belong to Kings spiritual to Priests From Nicol. 2. That the Church of God hath no sword but the spiritual I add Joan. 8. Cap. Porro 16. Q. 3. The Church unacquainted with corporal Arms patiently expects mercy from her only Lord and Defender when he pleases And Calestin 3. C. cum ab homine Extrav de Judiciis teaches us that if a Clergy-man remain after Deposition and Excommunication still incorrigible since the Church has not Power to do more he is to be restrained by the Secular Power and banishment or some other lawfull punishment inflicted And this seems to me very evident from the Custom of the Church even at this day when if a Clergy-man be found guilty of a
that business none was better satisfi'd then the guilty and punisht Emperor himself who more lov'd and honour'd S. Ambrose ever after And 't is likely if all spiritual Princes would imitate the zeal of that excellent Prelate and preserving the respect due to the dignity of secular powers strive only to redress the errors of their frailty that Temporal Princes would imitate the Piety of that excellent Emperor and there would be never any clashing betwixt them But this by the by I have only to do with the Argument and 't is not the least I have to do to find the force of it For 't is plain the bare words themselves without a comment will not do and Bellarmin has here forgotten to give a comment And so there remains nothing but to rove at random and hope if luck serve to hit right If Bellarmin understand this Decree in that manner in which he understood it who made it Boniface the 8 as far as can be gathered by those who writ of him was perswaded he was vested in a Power as unlimited and absolute as the wildest of Canonists ever fancied that he was the only universal Monarch and all Princes his subjects without more ado You remember how he writes to the King of France We would have you know you are subject to us both in spirituals and temporals and take for Hereticks who think otherwise Now there is one in my opinion very good reason why Bellarmin should not understand the Decree in this manner and that is because he thinks that sence not true and maintains the Pope has no such power and the Canonists are out who give it him If he will understand it as Clement 5 seems to understand it you must pardon me if I entertein you with seemings we must rove where we can do no better it will amount to no more than bare spiritual power as indeed the words themselves carry no farther We neither will nor intend says he that any prejudice be done to the King or Kingdom of France by the Decree in question nor that the King Kingdom or Inhabitants be more subject to the Church of Rome then they were formerly but that all things be in the same state in which they were before the said definition Now one point of the state in which things were before was if we believe the King of France as also Innocent 3 who had declared as much that he was subject in temporals to no man And so there remains only subjection in spirituals in which Clement 5 understood the Decree and challenged to the Church of Rome and this will freely be allow'd to Bellarmin by a great many who for all that will allow no deposition Now because neither of these Comments will fit him as far as I perceive he will hardly find one ready made but must take the pains to make one for himself if he will do any thing And yet when he has done a Comment is one thing and a Text another One is not altogether so current mony as the other Although in this particular his comment must be better mettal then the Text it self or will hardly pass The whole Canon Law the Decrees not only of particular Popes but particular Councils unless in circumstances which happen not in this case are freely and openly deny'd the power to oblige to belief But I will not meddle with this point which would draw on a new and that controversial dispute and I am no man of Controversy What I have sayd is answer enough to an Argument no better prest Yet I shall make one observation more and so take leave of it This Canon according to the declaration of Clement 5 defined nothing new says Bellarmin but only declared the ancient obligation of being subject to the Apostolick Sea Now would I fain understand how we should know by this Canon what that ancient obligation was The question is whether the ancient subjection were in temporals or spirituals And the Canon is declared to define neither the one nor the other but only the ancient obligation and if it define nothing in the question it might very well have been let alone of necessity we must know what this ancient obligation is before we can know what this Canon has defined and then 't is a clear case we can know nothing by the Canon but must depend on another knowledg and by that find out what the Canon sayes If things be left by this Canon as the Pope says they are in the state in which they were before it is not possible to know how this Canon left them but by knowing how they were before See now how well this Canon proves in the Pope a power over temporals which says no more but that he has a power he alwaies had but whether that power be temporal or spiritual is wholly silent 'T is something a new way of arguing to bring us in proof that things are as Bellarmin says they are a Canon which says only they are as they were before and force us to a new search to know how they were before of which we have no intelligence from his Canon but as far as we can have intelligence otherwise have reason to think they were quite contrary to what Bellarmin pretends For the French who took themselves particularly concern'd in this Canon did neither then nor since believe any obligation to be subject in temporals and were unsatisfied till they procur'd this Declaration from Clement 5 that things were as they were before and because this satisfied them 't is in my opinion a strong proof that it was then known there was no subjection in temporals due before However it be the proof from the Canon stands plainly thus You must in vertue of this Canon believe the Pope has power over Temporals because he has a power which by the Canon you cannot know whether it be over temporals or no Or you must know by the Canon the Pope has a temporal Power which whether it be temporal or no you must know from something else then the Canon That is I must know in vertue of the Canon what I cannot know in vertue of the Canon Which proof being that in vertue whereof I know signifies the Canon is a proof which is not a proof The third Argument is from Councils and is thus proposed by Bellarmin We prove it thirdly from the Councils before mentioned whereof the two last were general For how can that be brought into doubt or depend on the opinion of men which general Catholick and lawful Councils approve But these ten Councils and especially the two last of Lateran and Lyons do most evidently teach that temporal Princes may be depos'd by the Pope when the necessity of the Church requires it and consequently that the temporal Power of Princes is subject and subordinate to the spiritual power of Popes In my opinion he might have spared that consequently If lawful general Councils evidently teach Deposition they
teach enough of all conscience we know well enough what will follow without the help of his inferences and know that twenty worse things will follow then subordination of powers But is Bellarmin in earnest too and will he reduce the Catholick Church to the narrow compass of those who believe his Doctrine How Lawful general Concils teach and that evidently that Princes may be deposed Why what a hand has he made on 't His Friends Coton Sonran and the rest of the Jesuites who by a publick declaration disavow'd and detested this doctrine were no very honest men by his reckoning The French are all direct Hereticks without more ado and I fear it will go hard with the Pope himself who so freely and openly communicates with them As for my small acquaintance they are all in as bad a case as Falstaffs old Hosts if sack be a sin They 'l be mall'd to my knowledg If he do not make amends with the weakness of his proofs for the confidence of his assertions we are all undone But the comfort is that all Catholicks are not of his mind For this very Book had the luck to light into a certain Catholick Country where it was publickly condemn'd and the men who did it did not for all that think they contradicted any thing evidently taught by lawful general Councils But let us see what those Councils say The truth is since of ten which he cites 2 only are general 8 might have been spared For particular Councils according to his own doctrine are not so irrefragible but what they determine may be brought into doubt But we must take his Arguments as they are His first Council is 900 years old under Greg. 2. wherein he would make us believe the Emperor Leo Isaurus was excommunicated and depriv'd of the tributes which he us'd to receive out of Italy And this is one of the stories which Onuphrius takes for fables Bellarmin alledges for proof for the Council is not extant the testimony of Zonaras a Greek Historian whose words are these Gregory who at that time ruled the Church of old Rome involved them together with the Emperor in a synodical Anathema and making a league with the French forbad the tributes which till that time were paid from thence to the Empire Barclay answers that he mistook the meaning of Zonaras thinking that those 2 several things because they are joyned in one period hapned therefore at the same time 'T is true that either this Pope or his Successor Greg. 3 did in a Synod excommunicate not the Emperor particularly but Iconoclasts in general 'T is true that Greg. 3. made a league with the French or rather fled to their protection from the injuries of the Lombards from which the Emperor either could or perhaps would not defend him And therefore Writers who say that after this league Italy withheld their usual Tributes though the matter of fact be not altogether so clear but none say they withheld them by the authority of any Council As far as can be gathered the exasperated people were willing to keep their mony for their own defence and not by sending it into Greece expose themselves defenceless to those injuries which they either suffered or feared And thus far there is mention of the Pope's consent and even countenance at last for he opposed the sway of the people a good while and by his authority preserv'd them in their allegeance to the Emperor yet sided with them at long run in this keeping their mony at home But for deposing the Emperor much less in a Synod neither he nor any body else thought of it on the contrary to his dying day he acknowledged him his Emperor and Lord. Whether the People or he did well in doing so much as they did is another question which belongs not to me to determin But I suppose it is no wonderful thing that a remote Province of a great Empire should upon some dissatisfaction fail at some time in their duty and the men of greatest Authority among them joyn with them This is standing upon their terms more then becomes subjects but 't is not deposing and much less deposing by the Authority of those great men who take their part One might as well say the Prince of Orange by his Authority deposed the King of Spain from the Low Countries because he was the Principal Actor with those who fell from him But to make short work with our case there was in it I think no deposition at all But if this Tribute matter must be called deposition to that concur'd no Council and betwixt them both 't is plain there is no Argument There comes next in play the famous business of Greg. 7 which takes up 6 Councils more These because they belong all to one subject you shall give me leave to respit till I have rid my hands of his next Council which belongs to another 'T is the Council of Clerment where he says Vrban 2. excommunicated and deposed Philip. 1. of France for casting off his lawful Wife marrying an Adulteress and refusing upon admonition to make satisfaction For this he cites M. Paris and Sigebert I have not seen Sigebert but M. Paris who particularizes the Acts of the Council and among the rest this excommunication makes no mention of deposing I but sayes Bellarmin deposition must be understood to go along with excommunication Marry I thank him heartily Vnderstood quotha Is our evident teaching come to understanding and understanding those things to be the same than which the world has none more different Excommunication is a pure spiritual censure and deprives a man of none but pure spiritual goods deposition is quite contrary and takes away only temporal It passes my understanding how one of these must necessarily follow out of the other Pray why must we understand it does Because says he Historians testify the Pope forbad the Crown should be set upon the Kings head while he remain'd excommunicate and in particular Ivo Bishop of Chartres writes to the Pope that he would be threatned unless he restored the Crown and took off the excommunication that the King and Kingdom would fall off from their obedience Very well Why then according to Ivo there was a King still and that King had a Kingdom and so much credit in it that 't was not impossible but he might cause it to revolt These things do not hang together A man may as soon understand how excommunication and deposition infer one another as how a Crown can be restor'd to one who is a King and has a Kingdom or how the Pope should forbid the Crown to be set on his head who had been crowned long before the Pope was Pope 'T is hard and not very wise to forbid things that are past If this mystery had not been unridled for me I had been quite at a loss But if I may believe Barclay and Withrington it was at that time the custom of France for the King
provided you keep within the bounds you have set and intrench not upon Spirituals For you desire I should deal plainly with you and I must tell you plainly I mean by the Grace of God to be as good a Catholick as a Subject and hope I do you no harm by meaning to save my soul Now if you be not satisfi'd it is no fault of mine and I must believe say what I will or can you are resolv'd not to be satisfi'd Which if it be so I am sorry with all my heart you have put me to so much fruitless trouble for truly I could have spent my time something better then in washing the Brick But now I am in the humour of telling you all I know let me tell you farther I am not alone of this perswasion Whenever you make it as seasonable for other people to speak their thoughts freely as you have made it necessary for me I do not think you will find many Catholicks who will leave you much ground of jealousie At least I am sure of this That there is no Catholick who may not remain as good a Catholick as the Pope himself in the blunt phrase and say as much as I do Those who will not if there be any such are not hindred by any either Doctrine or Command of the Church but by Principles which whether by the credit of the maintainers or whatever flash their eyes are dazled they mistake for more effectual then they are Notwithstanding if you meet with any such I freely consent you make as much sport with them as you will and bar you no part of the pleasure I doubt you take even in your jealousie and which I fear you would be loth to part with But to my knowledge there are who would gladly give you satisfaction in this Point if you would receive it Pray permit me a little liberty too and let me ask you a Question or two in my turn You know as well as I there are of us who hold in this matter what displeases you and there are who do not You who talk so much of honesty and uprightness pray where is the honesty and the uprightness to treat us both alike and give the honestest man that is the portion of a Knave Do you think it a just thing that one man should bear the burden of another mans faults or that those Nations do well who when any one offends punish all his relations You keep us all under the same discouragements and yet know we do not all deserve it You allow us no means to clear our innocence such as you know are clear and should we find a means our selves our case is still the same as if we were guilty Honest or not honest all is one with you If you say You know not which are which why do you not know it You may when you please But since you do know that some whoever they be are innocent those innocent men should rather bear out the guilty then the guilty condemn the innocent I think men of tender conscience would choose to let twenty guilty men scape before they would let one innocent man suffer At least in other cases the Law does not condemn any man because he is not known to be innocent but frees him without more ado unless upon sufficient proof he be in particular found guilty With us 't is otherwise because some are perhaps but thought guilty for till it come to trial that 's all can be said it takes hold of innocent and all Nay we are not admitted so much as to a trial nor allow'd to plead Not-guilty with any plea which shall be any way beneficial and free him who is found so from any thing to which he is liable who is cast In fine You pretend and endlesly pretend dissatisfaction yet no satisfaction will be receiv'd from those who could and gladly would give it Whatever men be to look upon them still as guilty and keep them so in spite of all they can do to make out their innocence and not suffer them to pass for other In two vvords To make men liable to punishment whether they will or no and then punish them is in my opinion something hard dealing I am perswaded you are sensible enough that This might be prest But I forbear and only vvish you to clear things as vvell as I have done You are so nice at receiving satisfaction that I should be very sorry you had this to object against me I fear I should have much ado to make your squeamishness believe otherwise but we were in love with severity and resolved not to part with any pretence of it As for me I think I have done my part and so clear'd all vvho are perswaded as I am that if you continue your jealousie against us 't is very plain you are jealous for some other reason then demerit in us And because you shall perceive I am in earnest and speak not only in force of your importunity but according to the perswasion of my best little Judgement I vvill go a little farther and tell you vvhy I am thus perswaded For I vvould not have you think your Arguments alone have done the feat and that being formerly either unsetled or vvrong fixt they have converted me And yet I must frankly acknowledge I cannot answer them in the main though if I had a mind to keep up the wrangling Ball I could perhaps here and there pick out enough to give you sufficient trouble But I have always been of this Judgement and you might perceive so much by the Relation I made of the Arguments in vvhich I did not play the Historian so impartially as not to discover sufficiently vvith which part I sided So much sharpness as I mingled vvith the Narrative could not proceed from one who thought well of the Arguments By the vvay I now wish there had been less For since you must knovv all that heat was indeed but counterfeit a disguise I put on in hopes to excuse my self from plainly discovering my own face Othervvise more modesty to learneder men then my self had been more suitable both to manners and my humour and ' t vvas vvith regret I shevv'd no more respect to them But I thought there vvas no great harm to speak a little freely of Books vvhose Authors are by death exempt from all sense of wrong and if they vvere alive perhaps would not take much offence at any thing I should say But I perceive I must give over Policy 'T is a Trade in vvhich I am not skil'd and thrives accordingly To acquaint you plainly then with what I harbour in my brest I must profess that as far as I can judge This Deposing doctrine in whatever garments of distinctions clad as much as 't is pinn'd upon our Religion is more inconsistent with our principles then those of any other perswasion so inconsistent that were it once establisht for Catholic doctrine instead of being an