supposition that it is a Church which yet I utterly deny to be a schismaticall Church upon the account of the intestine divisions of all sorts or what other accounts other men urge them with the same guilt I suppose he knows by this that I am not concern'd Having finished this exploit because I had said if I were unwilling I did not understand how I might be compelled to carry on the notion of Schisme any farther he tells me though I be unwilling he doubts not but to be able to compell me but who told him I was unwilling so to do do I not immediately without any compulsion very freely fall upon the worke did I say I was unwilling Certainly it ought not to be thus of his abilities in other things I do not doubt in this discourse he is pleased to exercise more of something else There is but one passage more that needs to be remarked and so this Chapter also is dismissed He puts in a Caveat that I limit not Schisme to the worship of God upon these words of mine the consideration of what sort of union in reference to the worship of God where he inserts in the repetition marke that is instituted by Jesus Christ is the foundation of what I have further to offer whereto he subjoined the designe of this in that he may have a fair retreat when he is charged with breach of union in other respects and so with Schisme to escape by this evasion this breach of union is not in reference to the worship of God in one assembly met to that end I wish we had once an end of these mistakes and false uncharitable surmises By the worship of God I intend the whole compasse of institutions and their tendency thereunto And I know that I speak properly enough in so doing I have no such designe as I am charged withall nor do I need it I walke not in feare of this Authors forces that I should be providing before hand to secure my retreat I have passed the bounds of the precise notion of Schisme before insisted on and yet doubt not but God assisting to make good my ground If he judge I cannot let him command my personall attendance on him at any time to be driven from it by him let him by any meanes prove against me at any time a breach of any union instituted by Jesus Christ and I will promise him that with all speed I will retreate from that state or thing whereby I have so done I must professe to this Reverend Author that I like not the cause he mannages one whit the better for the way whereby he mannageth it We had need watch and pray that we be not lead into temptation seeing we are in some measure not ignorant of the devices of Sathan Now that he may see this door of escape shut up that so he may not need to trouble himselfe any more in taking care least I escape that way when he intends to fall upon me with those blowes which as yet I have not felt I shall shut it fast my selfe beyond all possibility of my opening againe I here then declare unto him that when ever he shall prove that I have broken any union of the institution of Jesus Christ of what sort soever I will not in excuse of my selfe insist on the plea mentioned but will submit to the discipline which shall be thought meet by him to be exercised towards any one offending in that kind yet truely on this engagement I would willingly contract with him that in his next reply he should not deale with me as he hath done in this neither as to my person nor as to the differences between us CHAP. 6. HAving declared and vindicated the Scripture proper notion of Schisme and thence discovered the nature of it with all its aggravations with the mistakes that men have run into who have suited their apprehensions concerâ—ing it unto what was their interests to have it thought to be and opened a way thereby for the furtherance of peace among professors of the Gospell of Jesus Christ for the further security of the consciences of men unjustly accused and charged with the guilt of this evill I proceeded to the consideration of it in the usuall common acceptation of the word and things that so I might obviate what ever with any tollerable pretence is insisted on as deduced by a parity of reason from what is delivered in the Scripture in reference to the charge managed by some or other against all sorts of Protestants Hereupon I grant that it may be looked on in generall as {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} a branch of union so that it be granted also that that union be an union of the institution of Jesus Christ To find out then the nature of Schisme under the consideration of the condescention made and to discover wherein the guilt of it doth consist it is necessary that we find out what that union is and wherein it doth consist whereof it is the brcadth and interruption or is supposed so to be over and above the breach above mentioned and described Now this union being the union of the Church the severall acceptations of the Church in scripture are to be investigated that the union inquired after may be made known The church in scripture being taken either for the Church Catholick or the whole number of elect beleivers in the world for we lay aside the consideration of that part of this great family of God which is already in heaven from this distinction or else for the generall visible body of those who professe the gospell of Christ or for a particular society joining together in the celebration of the ordinances of the new testament instituted by Christ to be so celebrated by theÌ„ The union of it with the breach of that union in these severall respects with the application of the whole to the businesse under consideration was to be enquired after which also was performed I began with the consideration of the Catholick invisible Church of Christ and the union thereof having declared the rise of this distinction and the necessity of it from the nature of the things themselves as to the matter of this church or the church of Christ as here militant on earth I affirme and evince it to be all and only elect believers the union of this church consists in the inhabitation of the same spirit in all the members of it uniting them to the head Christ Jesus and therein to one another The breach of this union I manifested to consist in the losse of that spirit with all the peculiar consequences and effects of him in the hearts of them in whom he dwels This I manifest according to our principles to be impossible and upon a supposition of it how remote it would be from Schisme under any notion or acceptation of the word so closing that discourse with a charge on the Romanists of their distance from
trouble of a Rejoinder His first attempt in this chapter is upon a short discourse of mine in my processe which I professe not to be needfull to the purpose in hand relating to some later disputes about the nature of this Church wherein some had affirmed it to be a Genus to particular churches which are so many distinct species of it and others that it was a totum made up of particular churches as its parts both which in some sense I denyed partly out of a desire to keep off all debates about the things of God frō being enwrapped and agitated in and under Philosophicall notions and faigned tearms of Art which hath exceedingly multiplied controversies in the world and rendred them endlesse and doth more or lesse streighten or oppose every truth that is so dealt withall partly because I evidently saw men deducing false consequents from the supposition of such notions of this Church for the first way our Reverend Author lets it passe onely with a remarke upon my dissenting from Mr Hooker of New England which he could not but note by the way although he approves what I affirme A worthy note as though all the brethren of the Presbyterian way were agreed among themselves in all things of the like importance or that I were in my judgment enthralled to any man or men so that it should deserve a note when I dissent from them Truly I blesse God I am utterly unacquainted with any such frame of spirit or bondage of mind as must be supposed to be in them whose dissent from other men is a matter of such observation One is my Master to whom alone my heart and judgement are in subjection for the latter I do not say absolutely that particular Churches are not the parts of the Catholique visible in any sense but that they are not so parts of it as such so that it should be constituted made up by thē of thē for the order and purpose of an instituted Church for the celebration of the worship of God and institutions of Christ according to the Gospell which when our Author proves that it is I shall acknowledge my selfe obliged to him He saies indeed that it was once possible that all the members of the Catholique Church should meet together to heare one sermon c. But he is to prove that they were bound to do so as that Catholique Church and not that it was possible for all the members of it under any other notion or consideration so to convene But he saies they are bound to do so still but that the multitude makes it impossible Credat Apella that Christ hath bound his Church to that which himselfe makes impossible Neither are they so bound they are bound by his own acknowledgement to be members of particular Churches in that capacity are they bound so to convene those churches being by the will of God appointed for the seat of ordinances And so what he adds in the next place of particular Churches being bound according to the institution of Christ to assemble for the celebration of ordinances is absolutely destructive of the former figment But he would know a reason why 40 or more that are not members of one particular church but only of the Catholick meeting together may not join together in all ordinances as well as they may meet to heare the word preached and often doe to which I answer that it is because Jesus Christ hath appointed particular Churches and there is more required to them then the occasionall meeting of some any or all if possible of the members of the Catholick church as such will afford His reflexions upon my selfe added in that place are now growne so common that they deserve not any notice In his ensuing discourse if I may take leave to speak freely to our Reverend Author he wrangles about termes and expressions adding to and altering those by me used in this businesse at his pleasure to make a talke to no purpose The summe of what he pretends to oppose is that this universall church or the universality of Professors considered as such neither formally as members of the church Catholick mistically Elect nor as any members of any Particular Church have not as such any Church forme of the institution of Christ by virtue whereof they should make up one instituted Church for the end and purpose of the celebration of the Ordinances of the Gospell therein If he suppose he can prove the contrary let him cease from cavilling at words and by expressions which is a facile taske for any man to engage in and no way usefull but to make controversies endlesse and answer my Reasons against it which here he passeth over and produce his testimonies and arguments for that purpose This triviall ventilation of particular passages cut off from their influence into the whole is not worth a nut-shell but is a businesse fit for them who have nothing else to employ themselves about Coming to consider the union that I assigne to this Church after whose breach an enquiry is to be made which is the maine and only thing of his concernment as to the aime he hath proposed to himselfe he passeth it over very slightly taking no notice at all of my whole discourse frō p. 116. top 133. of my treatise wherein I disprove the pretensions of other things to be the union or bond of union to this church he fixes a very little while on what I assigne to be that union This I say is profession of the faith of the Gospell and subjection to Jesus Christ according to it to which he adds that they are bound to more then this viz to the exercise of the same specificall Ordinances as also to love one another to subjection to the same discipline and where it is possible to the exercise of the same numericall worship All this was expresly affirm'd by me before it is all virtually contained in their profession so far as the things mentioned are revealed in the Gospell only as to the celebrating of the same numericall Ordinances I cannot grant that they are obliged hereunto as formally considered members of that Church nor shall untill our Reverend Author shall think meet to prove that particular congregations are not the institutions of Jesus Christ But hereupon he affirms that that is a strange assertion used by me pa 117. namely that if there be not an institution of joining in the same numericall ordinances the union of this Church is not really a Church union This is no more but what was declared before nor more then what I urged the testimony of a learned Presbyterian for no more but this that the universality of Christians throughout the world are not under such an institution as that to assemble together for the celebration of the same numericall Ordinances the pretence of any such institution being supplied by Christ's acknowledged institutiō of particular Churches for that purpose What I have offered
in my Treatise as evidence that Protestants are not guilty of the breach of this union and that where any are their crime is not Schisme but Apostacy either as to profession or conversation I leave to the judgment of all candid sober and ingenious Readers for such as love strife and debates and disputes whereof the world is full I would crave of them that if they must chuse me for their Adversary they would allow me to answer in person vivâ voce to prevent this tedious trouble of writing which for the most part is fruitlesse and needlesse Some exceptions our Author laies in against the Properties of the profession by me required as necessary to the preservation of this union as to the first of professing all necessary saving Truths of the Gospell he excepts that the Apostles were ignorant of many necessary truths of the Gospell for a season and some had never heard of the holy Ghost Act. 29. and yet they kept the union of the Catholick Church And yet our Author before he closeth this chapter will charge the breach of this union on some whose errors cannot well be apprehended to lie in the deniall of any necessary truth of the Gospell that is indispensably necessary to salvation As to his instance of the Apostles he knows it is one thing not to know clearly and distinctly for some season some truths in hypothesi and another to deny them being sufficiently and clearly revealed in thesi and for those in the Acts it is probable they were ignorant of the dispensations of the holy Ghost with his marvelous effects under the Gospell rather then of the person of the holy Ghost for even in respect of the former it is absolutely said that the holy Ghost was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified I shall not pursue his other exceptions being sorry that his judgment leads him to make them that which alone beares any aspect to the business in hand he insists on pag. 99. in these words I have intimated and partly proved that there may be a breach of union with respect to the Catholick Church upon other considerations namely besides the renuntiation of the profession of the Gospell As first there is a bond that obliges every member of this Church to joine together in exercising the same Ordinances of worship when then any man shall refuse to joine with others or refuse others to joine with him here is a breach of love and union among the members of the Catholick Church and in the Particular Churches as parts of the Catholick The Reader must pardon me for producing and insisting on these things seeing I do it with this profession that I can fix on nothing else so much to the purpose in hand and yet how little these are so cannot but be evident upon a sleight view to the meanest capacities For 1. he tells us there may be a breach of union with respect to the Catholick church on other considerations not that there may be a breach of the uniō of the Catholick Church 2. That there is a bond binding men to the exercise of Ordinances so there is binding man to all holinesse and yet he denies the vilest profane persons to break that bond or this union 3. That there may be a breach of union among the members of the Church but who knows it not that knows all members of Particular Churches are also members of this church generall Our enquiry is after the union of the Catholick-Church visible what it is how broken and what the crime or evill is whereby it is broken what obligations lie on the members of that Church as they stand under any other formall consideration what is the evill they are any of them guiltie of in not answering these obligations we were not at all enquiring nor doth it in this place concerne us so to do And in what he afterwards tells us of some proceedings contrary to the practise of the universall Church she intends I suppose all the Churches in the worldj wherein the members of the universall Church have walked or do so for the universall Church as such hath no practice as to cecelebration of ordinances if he suppose it hath let him tell us what it is and when that practice was His appeale to the primitive believers and their small number will not availe him for although they should be granted to be the then Catholick visible Church against which he knowes what exceptions may be laid from the believers amongst the Jewes such as Cornelius to whom Christ had not as yet been preached as the Messiah come and exhibited yet as such they joined not in the celebration of ordinances but as yet they were as a particular congregation yea though all the Apostles were amongst them the foundation of all the Churches that afterwards were called He concludes this chapter with an exception to my assertion that if the Catholick Church be a politicall body it must have a visible politicall head which nothing but the Pope claimes to be Of this he saies 1. There is no necessity for saith he he confesses the common wealth of the Jews was a politicall body and God who is invisible was their politicall head 2. Jesus Christ is a visible head yea sometimes more visus seen of men whilst on earth though now for a time in majesty as some great Princes do he hath withdrawn himselfe from the sight of men on earth yet is he seen of Angels and Saints in heaven A. 1. I confesse God was the King and Ruler of the Jewes but yet that they might be a visible Politicall body the invisible God appointed to them under him a visible head as the Pope blasphemously pretends to be appointed under Jesus Christ 2. Jesus Christ is in his humane nature still visible as to his Person wherein he is the head of his Church he ever was and is still invisible His present absence is not upon the account of Majesty seeing in his majesty he is still present with us and as to his bodily absence he gives other accounts then that here insinuated Now it sufficeth not to constitute a visible politicall body that the head of it in any respect may be seen unlesse as that their head he is seen Christ is visible as this Church is visible He in his lawes in his word that in its profession in its obedience But I marvell that our Reverend Author thus concluding for Christ to be the politicall head of this Church as a Church should at the same time contend for such subjects of this head as he doth p. 96. namely persons contradicting their profession of the knowledge of God by a course of wickedness manifesting principles of profaneness wherewith the beliefe of the truth they profess hath an absolute inconsistency as I expresly describe the persons whose membership in this church and relation thereby to Christ their head he pleads for Are indeed these persons any better thēMahumetans as
to church priviledges they are indeed in some places as to providentiall advantages of hearing the word preached but woe unto them on that account it shall be more tolerable for Mahumetans in that day of Christ then for them shall their Baptisme availe them though it were valid in its administration that is was celebrated in obedience to the cōmād of Christ is it not null to thē is not their circumcision uncircūcision shall such persons give their children any right to church priviledges let them if you please be so subjects to Christ as Rebells and Traitors are subject to their earthly princes they ought indeed to be so but are they so do they owne their Authority are they obedient to them do they enjoy any priviledge of Lawes or doth the Apostle anywhere call such persons as live in a course of wickednesse manifesting principles utterly inconsistent with the profession of the Gospell brethren God forbid we should once imagine these things so to be And so much for that chapter CHAP. VIII Of Independentisme and Donatisme THe Title of our Authors book is Independency a great Schisme of this chapter that it may be the better known what kind of schisme it is Independentisme is Donatisme Men may give what title they please to their books and chapters though perhaps few books make good their titles I am sure this doth not as yet nisi accusasse sufficiat Attempts of proof we have not as yet met withall what this chapter will furnish us withall we shall now consider He indeed that shall weigh the title Independentisme is Donatisme then casting his eye upon the first lines of the chapter it selfe find that the Reverend Author saies he cannot but acknowledge that what I plead for the vindication of protestants from the charge of schisme in their separation from Rome as the Catholick church to be rationall solid and judicious will perhaps be at a losse in conjecturing how I am like to be dealt withall in the following discourse a little patience will let him see that our Author laies more weight upon the Title then the preface of this chapter and that with all my fine trappings I am enrolled in the black booke of the Donatists but 1 quod fo rs feret feramus aequo animo or as another saith debemus optare optima cogitare difficulima ferre quaecunque erunt as the case is fallen out we must deal with it as we can 1. He saith he is not satisfied that he not only denies the Church of Rome so called to be a particular Church pag. 154. but also affirms it to be no Church at all That he is not satisfied with what I affirm of that Synagogue of Sathan where he hath his throne I cannot helpe it though I am sorry for it I am not also without some trouble that I cannot understand what he means by placeing my words so as to intimate that I say not only that the church of Rome is no particular church but also that it is no church at all as though it might in his judgment or mine be any Church if it be not a particular church For I verily suppose neither he nor I judg it to be that Catholick Church whereto it pretends But yet as I have no great reason to expect that this Reverend Author should be satisfied in any thing that I affirme so I hope that it is not impossible but that without any great difficulty he may be reconciled to himselfe affirming the very same thing that I do p. 113. It is of Rome in that sence wherein it claims it self to be a church that I speak in that sence he saies it is no church of Christs institution and so for my part I account it no church at all but he adds that he is far more unsatisfied that I undertake the cause of the Donatists and labour to exempt them from Schisme though I allow them guilty of other crimes But do I indeed undertake the cause of the Donatists do I plead for thē will he manifest it by saying more against them in no more words then I haved one do I labour to exempt them from Schisme are these the waies of peace love and truth that the Reverend Author walks in do I not condemne all their practises and pretensions from the beginning to the end can I not speak of their cause in Reference to the Catholick Church and its union but it must be affirmed that I plead for them But yet as if righteousnesse and truth had been observ'd in this crimination he undertakes as of a thing granted to give my grounds of doing what he affirms me to have done The first is as he saies His singular notion of Schisme limiting it only to differences in a particular Assembly 2. His jealousy of the charge of Schisme to be objccted to himselfe and party if separating from the true Churches of Christ be truly called Schisme A. What may I expect from others when so grave and Reverend a person as this Author is reported to be shall thus deal with me Sr I have no singular notion of Schisme but embrace that which Paul hath long since declared nor can you manifest any difference in my notion from what he hath delivered nor is that notion of Schisme at all under consideration in Reference to what I affirme of the Donatists who in truth were concerned in it the most of them to them to the utmost but the union of the Church Catholick and the breach thereof Neither am I jealous or fearfull of the charge ' of Schisme from any person living on the earth and least of all from men proceeding in church affaires upon the principles you proceed on Had you not been pleased to have supposed what you please without the least ground or colour or reason perhaps you would have as little satisfyed your selfe in the charge you have undertaken to manage against me as you have done many good men as the case now stands even of your own judgment in other things Having made this entrance he proceeds in the same way and pag. 164. laye's the foundation of the title of his booke this chapter of his charge of donatisme in these words This lies in full force against him and his party who have broken the union of our churches and separated themselves from all the protestant churches in the world not of their own constitution and that as no true churches of Christ this I say is the foundatiō of his whole ensuing discourse all the groūd that he hath to stand upon in the defence of the Invidious title of this chapter and what fruit he expects from this kind of proceeding I know not The day will manifest of what sort this work is Although he may have some mistaken apprehensions to countenance his conscience in the first part of his assertion or that it may be forgiven to inveterate praejudice though it be false namely that I and my party
that 's the phraseology this Author in his love to unity delights in have broken the union of their churches which we have no more done then they have broken the union of ours for we began our reformation with them on even tearms and were as early at work as they yet what coulour what excuse can be invented to alleviate the guilt of the latter part of it that we have separated from all the reformed churches as no churches and yet he repeats this again pag. 106. with especiall reflexion on my selfe I wonder not saith he that the Doctor hath unchurched Roome for he hath done as much to England and all forraign protestant churches and makes none to be members of the church but such as are by covenant and consent joyned to some of their congregations Now truly though all righteous laws of men in the world will afford recompence and satisfaction for calumniating accusations and slaunders of much lesse importance then this here publickly ownd by our Reverend Author yet seeing the gospell of the blessed God requires to forgive and passe by greater injuries I shall labour in the strength of his grace to bring my heart unto conformity to his will therein notwithstanding which because by his providence I am in that place and condition that others also that fear his name may be some way concern'd in this unjust imputatiō I must declare that this is open unrighteousness wherein neither love nor truth hath been observed How little I am concernd in his following parallell of Independentisme and Donatisme wherein he proceeds with the same truth and candor or in all that followes thereupon is easy for any one to judg He proceeds to scan my Answers to the Romanists as in reference to their charge of Schisme upon us and saies I do it sutable to my own principles And truly if I had not I think I had been much to blame I referre the Reader to the Answers given in my book and if he like them not notwithstanding this Authors exceptions I wish he may fix on those that please him better in them there given my conscience doth acquiesce But he comes in the next place to Arguments wherein if he prove more happy then he hath done in Accusations he will have great cause to rejoyce By a double Argument as he saies he will prove that there may be Schisme besides that in a particular Church His first is this Schisme is a breach of Union but there may be a breach of union in the Catholick visible church His second this where there are differenccs raysed in matter of faith professed wherein the union of the Catholick Church consists there may be a breach of union but there may be differences in the Catholick or among the members of the Catholick church in matter of faith professed Ergo Having thus laid down his Arguments he falls to conjecture what I will answer and how I will evade but it will quickly appear that he is no lesse unhappy in arguing and conjecturing then he is and was in accusing For to consider his first Argument if he will undertake to make it good as to its forme I will by the same way of arguing ingage my selfe to prove what he would be unwilling to find in a regular conclusion But as to the matter of it 1. Is Schisme every breach of union or is every breach of Union schisme Schisme in the Ecclesiasticall notion is granted to be in the present dispute the breach of the union of a church which it hath by the institution of Christ and this not of any union of Christs institution but of one certaine kind of union for as was proved there is an union whose breach can neither in the language of the Scripture nor in reason nor common sense be called or accounted schisme nor ever was by any man in the world nor can be without destroying the particular nature of schisme and allowing only the generall notion of any separation good or bad in what kind soever So that secondly it is granted not onlie that there may be a breach of union in the Catholick church but also that there may be a breach of the union of the Catholick church by a deniall or relinquishment of the profession wherein it consists but that this breach of union is sehisme because sehisme is a breach of union is as true as that every man who hath two eyes is every thing that hath two eyes For his second it is of the same importance with the first there may be differences in the Catholick church and breaches of union among the members of it which are far enough from the breach of the union of that church as such Two professors may fall out and differ and yet I think continue both of them professors still Paul and Barnabas did so Chrysostome and Epiphanius did so Cyrill and Theodoret did so That which I denied was that the breach of the union of the catholick church as such is Schisme He proves the contrary by affirming there may be differences among the members of the catholick church that do not break the union of it as such But he saies though there be Apostasy or Heresy yet there may be Schisme also but not in respect of the breach of the same union which only he was to prove Besides evill surmizes reproaches false criminations and undue suggestions I find nothing wherein my discourse is concerned to the end of this chap. pag. 109. upon the passage of mine we are thus come off from this part of Schisme for the relinquishment of the Catholick church which we have not done and so to do is not schisme but a sin of another nature and importance he adds that the ground I goe upon why separation from a true church he must meane the catholick church or he speaks nothing at all the businesse in hand is no schisme is that afore mentioned that a schisme in the Scripture notion is onely a division of jugment in a particular assembly But who so blind as they that will not see the ground I proceeded on evidently openly solely was taken from the nature of the Catholick church its union and the breach of that union and if obiter I once mention that notion I do it upon my confidence of its truth which I here againe tender my selfe in a readinesse to make good to this Reverend Author if at any time he will be pleased to command my personall attendance upon him to that purpose To repeat more of the like mistakes and surmizes with the wranglings that ensue on such false suppositions to the end of this chapter is certainly needlesse for my part in and about this whole businesse of separation from the catholick church I had not the least respect to Presbyterians or Independents as such nor to the differences betweē them which alone our Author out of his zeale to truth and peace attends unto If he will fasten the guilt of Schisme on any
on the account of separation from the Catholick church let him prove that that church is not made up of the universality of professors of the Gospell throughout the world under the limitations expressed that the union of it as such doth not consist in the profession of the truth and that the breach of that union whereby a man ceases to be a member of that Church is Schismes otherwise to tell me that I am a Sectary a Schismatick to fill up his pages with vaine surmizes and supposalls to talke of a difference and schsme among the members of the catholick church or the like impertinencies will never farther his discourse among men either rationall solid or judicious All that ensues to the end of this chapter is about the ordination of ministers wherein however he hath beē pleased to deal with me in much bitternesse of spirit with many clamours and false Accusations I am glad to find him p. 120. renouncing ordination from the Authority of the church of Rome as such for I am assured that by his so doing he can claime it no waie from by or through Rome for nothing came to us from thence but what came in and by the Authority of that Church CHAP. IX WE are now gathering towards what seems of most immediate concernment as to this Reverend Authors undertaking namely to treate of the nature of a particular church its union and the breach of that union the description I give of such a church is this It is a society of men called by the word to the obedience of the faith in Christ and joint performance of the worship of God in the same individuall ordinances according to the order by him prescribed This I professe to be a generall description of its nature waving all contests about accurate definitions which usually tend very little to the discovery or establishment of truth after some canvassing of this description our Author tells us that he grants it to be the definition of a particular church which is more then I intended it for only he adds that according to this description their churches are as true as ours which I presume by this time he knowes was not the thing in Question His ensuing discourse of the will of Christ that men should joine not all in the same individuall congregation but in this or that is by me wholly assented ūto and the matter of it contended for by me as I am able what he is pleased to adde about explicite covenanting and the like I am not at all for the present concerned in I purposely waved all expressions concerning it one way or other that I might not involve the businesse in hand with any unnecessary contests it is possible somewhat hereafter may be spoken to that subject in a tendency unto the reconciliation of the parties at variance His argument in the close of the Section for a Presbyterian church from Acts 20. 17. because there is mention of more elders then one in that Church and therefore it was not one single congregation I do not understand I think no one single congregation is wholly compleated according to the mind of Christ unlesse there be more elders then one it there should be elders in every Church and for my part so we could once agree practically in the matter of our churches I am under some apprehension that it were no impossible thing to reconcile the whole difference as to a Presbyterian church or a single congregation And though I be reproved a new for my pains I may offer ere long to the candid consideration of godly men something that may provoke others of better abilities and more leasure to endeavour the carrying on of so good a work Proceeding to the consideration of the unity of this church he takes notice of three things laid down by me previously to what I was farther to assert all which he grants to be true but yet will not let them passe without his animadversions The two first are that 1. a man may be a member of the Catholick invisible church and 2 of the visible Catholick church and yet not be joyned to a particular Church These as I said he ownes to be true but askes how I can reconcile this with what I said before namely that the members of the Catholick visible Church are initiated into the profession of the faith by Baptisme but where lies the difference why saith he Baptisme according to his principles is an ordinance of worship only to be enjoyed in a particular Church whilst he will grant what yet he doth denie but will be forced to grant that a minister is a minister to more then his owne church even to the Catholick Church and may administer Baptisme out of a particular church as Phillip did to the Eunuch A. How well this Author is acquainted with my principles hath been already manifested as to his present mistake I shall not complaine seeing that some occasion may be administred unto it from an expression of mine at least as it is printed of which I shall speak afterwards for the present he may be pleased to take notice that I am so far from confining Baptisme subjectively to a particular congregation that I do not believe that any member of a particular church was ever regularly baptized Baptisme precedes admission into Church membership as to a particular Church the subject of it is professing believers and their seed as such they have right unto it whither they be joined to any particular church or no suitable to this judgment hath been my constant and uninterrupted practise I desire also to know who told him that I deny a minister to be a minister to more then his own Church or averred that he may perform ministeriall duty only in and towards the members of his own congregation for so much as men are appointed the objects of the dispensation of the word I grant a man in the dispensation of it to act ministerially towards not only the members of the Catholick church but the visible members of the world also in contradistinction thereunto The third thing laid down by me whereunto also he assentes is that every believer is oblieged to join himselfe to some one of those Churches that there he may abide in Doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and prayer but my reasons whereby I prove this he saies he likes not so well and truly I cannot helpe it I have little hope he should like any thing well which is done by me Let him be pleased to furnish me with better and I shall make use of them but yet when he shall attempt so to doe it is odds but that one or other will find as many flawes in them as he pretends to do in mine But this he saith he shall make use of and that he shall make advantage of and I know not what as if he were playing a prize upon a stage The third reason is that which he likes
worst of all and I like the businesse the better that what he understands least that he likes worst it is that Christ hath given no direction for any duty of worship meerly and purely of soveraign institution but only to them and by them who are so joined Hereupon he askes 1. is Baptisme a a part of worship A yes and to be so performed by them that is a Minister in or of them I fear my expression in this place lead him to his whole mistake in this matter 2. prayer and reading of the word in private families are they no duty of worship An Not meerly and purely of soveraign institution 3. Is preaching to convert heathens a duty of worship not as described in all cases when it is it is to be performed by a minister and so he knowes my answer to his next invidious inquiry relating to my own person Against my fourth Reason taken from the Apostles care to leave none out of this order who were converted where it was possible he gives in the instance of the Eunuch and others converted where there were not enough to ingage in such societies that is in them with whom it was impossible my fift is from Christ's providing of officers for these Churches This also he saith is weak as the rest for first Christ provided officers at first for the Catholick Church that is the Apostles 2. all ordinary officers are set first in the Catholicke Church and every minister is first a minister to the Catholick Church and if saith he he deny this he knowes where to find a learned Antagonist A. But see what it is to have a mind to dispute will he deny that Christ appointed officers for particular Churches or if he should have a mind to do it will his arguments evince any such thing Christ appointed Apostles Catholick officers therefore he did not appoint officers for particular Churches though he commanded that elders should be ordained in every Church Pastors and teachers are set first in the Catholick church therefore Christ hath not ordained officers for particular Churches But this is the way with our Author if any word offers it selfe whence it is possible to draw out the mention of any thing that is or hath at any time been in difference between Presbiterians and Independents that presently is run away withall for my part I had not the least thought of the controversie which to no purpose at all he would here lead me to but yet I must tell him that my judgment is that ordinary officers are firstly to be ordained in particular churches and as I know where to find a learned Antagonist as to that particular so I do in respect of every thing that I affirme or deny in the businesse of Religion and yet I blesse the Lord I am not in the least disquieted or shaken in my adherence to the truth I professe My last reason he saith is fallacious and inconsequent and that because he hath put an inference upon it never intended in it Now the position that these reasons were produced to confirm being true and so acknowledged by himselfe because it is a truth that indeed I lay some more then ordinary weight upon it being of great use in the daies wherein we live I would humbly intreat this Reverend Author to send me his reasons whereby it may be confirmed and I shall promise him if they be found of more validity then those which according to my best skill I have allready used he shall obtain many thanks and much respect for his favour What he remarks upon or adds to my next discourse about instituted worship in generall I shall not need to insist on onely by the way I cannot but take notice of that which he calls a chiefe piece of Independencie and that is that those who are joined in church fellowship are so confined that they cannot or may not worship God in the same ordinances in other churches how this comes to be a cheife peice of Independency I know not It is contrary to the known practise of all the churches of England that I am acquainted with which he calls Independents For my part I know but one man of that mind and he is no child in these things For the ensuing discourse about the intercision of ordinances it being a matter of great importance and inquired into by me meerly in reference to the Roman Apostacy it needs a more serious disquisition then any thing at present administred by our Author will give occasion unto possibly in convenient time I may offer somewhat farther towards the investigation of the mind of God therein every thing in this present contest is so warped to the petty difference between Presbyterians and Independents that no faire progresse nor opportunity for it can be afforded If it may be in my next debate of it I shall wave al mentiō of those meaner differences as I remember I have not insisted on them in what I have allready proposed to this purpose so possibly the next time I may utterly escape For the present I do not doubt but the spirit of God in the Scripture is furnished with sufficient authority to erect new churches and set up the celebration of all ordinances on supposition that there was an intercision of them To declare the way of his exerting his Authority to this purpose with the obviating of all objections to the contrary is not a matter to be tossed up and down in this scambling chase and I am not a litle unhappy that this Reverend Person was in the dark to my designe and aime all along which hath intangled this dispute with so many impertinences But however I shall answer a question which he is pleased to put to me in particular he askes me then whither I do not think in my conscience that there were no true churches in England untill the Brownists our fathers the Anabaptists our elder brothers and our selves arose and gathered new Churches With thanks for the civility of the inquiry in the manner of its expression I answer no! I have no such thoughts and his pretence of my insinuation of any such thing is most vaine as also is his insultation thereupon truly if men will in all things take liberty to speak what they please they have no reason but to think that they may at one time or other heare that which will displease Having investigated the nature of a particular Church I proceed in my treatise of Schisme to inquire after the union of it wherein it doth consist and what is the breach thereof The summe is the joint consent of the members to walke together in celebration of the same numericall ordinances according to the mind of Jesus Christ is that wherein the union of such a Church doth consist This is variously excepted against and I know not what disputes about an implicit and explicit covenant of Specificating forms of the practise of new and old England of Admission
hath lien neglected on booksellers stalls for above these seven years For the rest of those principles which he excepts against as he thinks meet I leave their consideration to that farther enquiry which the Lord assisting I have destined them unto The way of gathering churches upon a supposition of their antecedency to officers he saies is very pretty and loads it with the difficulty of mens comming to be baptized in such a case but as I can tell him of that which is neither true nor pretty in the practise of some whom he knowes or hath reason so to do so I can assure him that we are not concerned in his objection about baptisme and with them who may possibly be so it is a ridiculous thing to think it an objection And for that part of my enquiry whether the Church be before ordinary officers or they before it as sleight as he is pleased to make of it it will be found to lie very near the bottome of all our differences and the right stating of it to conduce to the composure and determination of them His charges and reflexions which he casts about in his passage are not now to be further mentioned we have had them over and over indeed we have had little else If strong vehement passionate affirmations complaints charges falfe imputations and the like will amount to a demonstration in this businesse he hath demonstrated Independentisme to be a great Schisme He shuts up his discourse as he began it reciting my words by adding interposing perverting commenting enquiring he makes them speak what he pleases and compasses the ends of his delight upon them What contentment he hath received in his so doing I know not nor shall I expresse what thoughts I have of such a course of proceedure This only I shall say it is a facile way of writing treatises and proving what ever men have a mind unto My last taske is to look back to the beginning of this last chapter and to gather up in our passage what may seem to respect the businesse in hand and so the whole matter will be dismissed The plea insisted on for immunity from the charge of Schisme with reference to the Episcopall Government of the Church of England and the constitution which under it it is pretended to have had he passes over though on sundry accounts his concernments ly as deeply in it as in any thing pleaded In that treatise The things he is pleased to take notice of as far as they tend in the least to the issue of the debate between us shall be reviewed Considering the severall senses wherein that expression the church of England may be taken I manifest in my treatise in which of them and how far we acknowledg our selves to have been and to continue members of the Church of England The first is as it comprises the elect believers in England what the unity of the Church in this sense is was before evinced our desire to be found members of this Church with our indeavour to keep the unity of it in the bond of peace was declared I am greived to repeat our Reverend Authors exceptions to this declaration saies he unlesse he think there are no members of this church in England but those that are of his formed particular churches I fear he will be found to break the union that ought to be between them And why so I pray The union of the members of the church in this sense consists in their joint union to with Christ their head by one spirit What hath the Reverend Author to charge upon me with reference thereunto Let him speak out to the utmost yea I have some reason to think that he will scarce spare where he can strike God forbid that I should think all the members of the Catholick Church in England to be comprised either jointly or severally in their Churches or ours seeing it cannot be avoided but you will keep up those notes of division I doubt not but there be many thousands of them who walk neither with you nor us He adds that by gathering saints of the first magnitude we do what lies in us to make the Invisible Church visible It is confessed we do so yea we know that that church which is invisible in some respect and under one formall consideration is visible as to its profession which it makes unto salvation This with all that lies in us we draw them out unto what he addes about the churches being elect and the uncomely parts of it which they may be for a season who are elect believers because it must be spoken are uselesse cavills For the scornfull rejection of what I affirm concerning our love to all the members of this church and readinesse to tender them satisfaction in case of offence with his insinuatiō of my want of modesty and truth in asserting these thoughts because he will one day know that the words he so despises were spoken in sincerity and with the reverence of the great God out of love to all his Saints I shall not farther vindicate them such hay and stubble must needs burn My next profession of our Relation to the Church of England in respect of that denomination given to the body of professours in this Nation cleaving to the Doctrine of the Gospell here preached and established by Law as the publike profession of this Nation But he tels me first 1. That many Independent Churches in this Nation are grosly apostatized from that doctrine and so are hereticall 2. That the worship was professed and protested and established as well as the doctrine and that we are all departed from it and so are schismaticall for we hold communion with them he sayes in the same doctrine but not in the same worship Answer His first exception ariseth from the advantage he makes use of from his large use of the word Independent which will serve him in his sense for what end he pleaseth In the sense before declared his charge is denyed Let him prove it by instance if he be able surely God hath not given orthodox men leave to speak what they please without due regard to love and truth 2. As to the worship established in this nation by law he means the way of worship for the substantials of it we are all agreed in I suppose he will not say a relinquishment of the practice of it is schisme if he do I know what use some men will make of his affirmation though I know not how he will free himselfe from being schismaticall for his renewed charg of schisme I cannot I confesse be moved at it proceeding from him who neither doth nor will know what it is His next indeavour is to make use of another concession of mine concerning our receiving of our regeneration and new birth by the preaching of the word in England saying could they make use of our preaching c. but the truth is when the most of us
an interest in this church of Jesus Christ Our Reverend Author professes that he hath but little to say to these things some exceptions he puts in unto some expressions used in the explication of my sense in this particular that which he chiefely insists upon is the accommodation of that promise Matth. 16. 28. upon this rock will I build my church to the Church in this sense which he concludes to belong to the visible Church of professors now as I am not at all concerned as to the truth of what I am in confirmation of to which of these it be applyed so I am far from being alone in that application of it to the Catholick Church which I insist upon All our Divines that from hence prove the perseverance of all Individuall believers as all do that I have met withall who write on that subject are of the same mind with me Moreover the Church is built on this rock in its Individuals or I know not how it is so built The building on Christ doth not denote a meer relation of a generall body to his truth that it shall allwaies have an existence but the union of the Individualls with him in their being built on him to whom the promise is made I acknowledg it for as unquestionable a truth as any we believe that Christ hath had and ever shall have to the end of the world a visible number of those that professe his name and subjection to his kingdome because of the necessary consequence of profession upon believing but that that truth is intended in this promise any farther but in respect of this consequence I am not convinced And I would be loath to say that this promise is not made to every particular believer and only unto them being willing to vindicate to the Saints of God all those grounds of consolation which he is so willing they should be made partakers of As to the union of this Church and the breach of it our Reverend Author hath a little to say because there may be some decaies in true grace in the members of this Church he affirms that in a sort there may be said to be a breach in this union and so consequently a schisme in this body He seemed formerly to be affraid lest all schisme should be thrust out of the world If he can retrive it on the account of any true believers failing in grace or falling for a season I suppose he needs not fear the losse of it whilst this world continues But it is fit wise and learned men should take the Liberty of calling things by what names they please so they will be pleasd withall not to impose their conceptions and use of tearms on them who are not able to understand the reasons of them It is true there may be a Schisme among the members of this church but not as members of this church nor with reference to the union thereof It is granted that schisme is the breach of union but not of every union much lesse not a breach of that which if there were a breach of it were not Schisme However by the way I am bold to tell this Reverend Author that this Doctrine of his concerning schisme in the Catholick invisible Church by the failings in Grace in any of the mēbers of it for a season is a new notion which as he cannot justify to us because it is false so I wonder how he will justify it to himselfe because it is new And what hath been obtained by the Author against my principles in this chapter I cannot perceive The nature of the church in the state considered is not opposed The union asserted not disproved the breach of that union is denyed as I suppose no lesse by him then my selfe That the instances that sōe Saints as mēbers of this Church may sometimes fail in grace more or lesse for some season that the members of this Church though not as members of this Church yet on other considerations may be guilty of Schisme concern not the businesse under debate himselfe I hope is satisfied CHAP. 7. OUr progresse in the next place is to the consideration of the Catholick Church visible Who are the members of this church whereof it is constituted what is required to make them so on what account men visibly professing the gospell may be esteemed justly devested of the priviledge of being members of this church with sundry respects of the church in that sense are in my treatise discussed The union of this church that is proper and peculiar unto it as such I declared to be the profession of the saving doctrine of the gospell not everted by any of the miscarriages errors or oppositions to it that are there recounted The breach of this union I manifest to consist in apostasy from the profession of the faith and so to be no Schisme upon whomsoever the guilt of it doth fall pleading the immunity of the Protestants as such from the guilt of the breach of this union and charging it upon the Romanists in all the waies whereby it may be broken an issue is put to that discourse What course our Reverend Author takes in the examination of this chapter the severalls of it whereon the strength of the controversie dothly is now to be consideed doth he deny this church to be a collection of all that are duly called Christians in respect of their profession to be that great multitude who throughout the world professe the Doctrine of the Gospell and subjection to Jesus Christ doth he denie the union of this church or that whereby that great multitude are incorporated into one body as visible and professing to be the profession of the saving doctrines of the Gospell of subjection to Jesus Christ according to them Doth he denie the dissolution of this union as to the interest of any member by it in the body to be by apostasy from the profession of the Gospell Doth he charge that apostasy upon those whom he calls Independents as such or if he should could he tolerably defend his charge Doth he prove that the breach of this union is under that formality properly Schisme nothing lesse as far as I can gather might not then the trouble of this Chapter have been spared or shall I be necessitated to defend every expression in my book though nothing at all to the main businesse under debate or else Independency must goe for a great Schisme I confesse this is somewhat an hard Law and such as I cannot proceed in obedience unto it without acknowledging his ability to compell me to go on further then I am willing yet I do it with this ingagement that I will so looke to my selfe that he shall never have that power over me any more nor will I upon any compulsion of useless needlesse cavils exceptions do so again so that in his reply he now knowes how to order his affairs so as to be freed from the
of church members of the right of the members of the Catholick church to all ordinances of the miscarriage of the Independents of church Matriculations and such like things not once considered by me in my proposall of the matter in hand are fallen upon By the way he fals upon my judgment about the inhabitation of the Spirit calls it an error and saies so it hath been reputed by all that are orthodox raising terrible suspitions and intimations of judgments on our way from God by my falling into that error when yet I say no more then the Scripture saith in expresse tearms forty times for which I referre him to what I have written on that subject wherein I have also the concurrence of Polanus Bucanus Dorchetus with sundry others Lutherans and Calvinists It may be when he hath seriously weighed what I have offered to the clearing of that glorious truth of the Gospell he may entertain more gentle thoughts both concerning it and mee The rest of the chapter I have passed thorow once and againe and cannot fix on any thing worthy of farther debate A difference is attempted to be found in my description of the union of a particular Church in this and another place because in one place I require the consent of the members to walke together in another mention only their so doing when the mention of that only was necessary in that place not speaking of it absolutely but as it is the difference of such a church from the church Catholick some impropriety of expression is pretended to be discovered id populus curat scilicet which yet is a pure mistake of his not considering unto what especiall end and purpose the words are used He repeats sundry things as in opposition to me that are things laid down by my selfe and granted Doth he attempt to prove that the union of a Church is not rightly stated he confesseth the form of such a Church consists in the obscrvance and performance of the same ordinances of worship numerically I aske is it the command of Christ that believers should so doe is not their obedience to that command their consent so to do are not particular churches instituted of Christ is it not the duty of every believer to join himselfe to some one of them was not this acknowledged above can any one do so without his consenting to do so is this consent any thing but his voluntary submission to the ordinances of worship therein As an expresse consent and subjection to Christ in generall is required to constitute a man a member of the Church Catholick visible so if the Lord Jesus hath appointed any particular church for the celebration of his ordinances is not their consent who are to walke in them necessary thereunto But the Topick of an explicite covenant presenting its selfe with an advantage to take up some leaves would not be waved though nothing at all to the purpose in hand After this my confession made in as much condescension unto compliance as I could well imagine of the use of greater assēblies is examined and excepted against as being in my esteem he saith though it be not so indeed a matter of prudence only But I know full well that he knows not what esteeme or disesteem I have of sundry things of no lesse importance The consideration of my postulata proposed in a preparation to what was to be insisted on in the next Chapter as influenced from the foregoing dissertations alone remaines and indeed alone deserve our notice My first is this The departing of any man or men from any particular Church as to the communion peculiar to such a Church is no where called Schisme nor is so in the nature of the thing it selfe but is a thing to be judged and recieve a title according to the circumstances of it to this he adjoines this is not the Question a simple secessiō of a man or mē upon some just occasion is not called schisme but to make causless differences in a Church and then separating from it as no Church denying communion with it hath the nature and name of schisme in all mens judgments but his own An. What Question doth our Reverend Author meane I feare he is still fancying of the difference between Presbyterians and Independents and squaring all things by that Imagination whether it be a Question stated to his mind or no I cannot tell but it is an assertion expressive of mine owne which he may do well to disprove if he can Who told him that raising causlesse differences in a Church and then separating from it is not in my judgment schisme May I possibly retaine hopes of making my selfe understood by this Reverend Author I suppose though that a pertinacious abiding in a mistake is neither schisme nor heresy And so this may be passed over My second is one Church refusing to hold that communion with another which ought to be between them is not Schisme properly so called The reply hereunto is twofold 1. That one Church may raise differences in and with another church and so cause Schisme 2 That the Independents deny any communion of churches but what is prudentiall and so that communion cannot be broken To the first I have spoken sufficiently before the latter is but an harping on the same string I am not speaking of Independent churches nor upon the principles of Independents much lesse on them which are imposed on them Let the Reverend Author suppose or aver what communion of churches he pleaseth my position holds in reference to it nor can he disprove it however for my part I am not acquaintcd with those Independents who allow no communion of churches but what is prudentiall and yet it is thought that I know as many as this Reverend Author doth Upon the last proposall we are wholly agreed so that I shall not need to repeat it only he gives me a sad farewell at the close of the Chapter which must be taken notice of is saith he not the design of his book to prove if he could and condemne us as no churches let the world be judge and I say let all the saints of God judge and Jesus Christ will judge whither I have not outragious injury done me in this imputation but saith he unless this be proved he can never justify his separatiō Sr. when your our brethren told the Bishops they thanked God they were none of them and defied the Prelaticall church did they make a separation or no were they guilty of Schisme I suppose you will not say so nor do I yet have I done any such thing in reference to you or your churches I have no more separated from you then you have done from me and as for the distance which is between us upon our disagreement about the way of reformation let all the churches of God judge on which side it hath been managed with more breach of love on yours or mine Let me assure you Sir through
began to reform thousands of the people of God in these nations had no reason to suppose themselves to belong to one particular Church rather then another They lived in one parish heard in another removed up and down for their advantage and were in bondage on that account all their daies But he saies in some words following I discover my very heart I cannot but by the way tell him that it is a sufficient evidence of his unacquaintednesse with me that he thinks there is need of searching and racking my words to discover my very heart in any thing that belongs though in never so remote a distance to the worship of God All that know me know how open and free I am in these things how ready on all occasions to declare my whole heart it is neither fear nor favour can influence me unto another frame But what are the words that make this noble discovery They are these that follow When any Society or combination of men what ever hitherto it hath been esteemed is not capable of such a reduction and revocation that is to its primitive institution I suppose I shall never provoke any wise or sober person if I professe I cannot look on such a society as a church of Christ His reply hereunto is the hinge upon which his whole discourse turneth and must therefore be considered Thus then he is not this reader at once to unchurch all the churches of England since the reformation for it is known during the raign of the prelates they were not capable of that reduction and what capacity our Churches are now in for that reduction partly by want of power and assistance from the magistrate without which some dare not set upon a reformation for fear of a praemunire partly by our divisions amongst our selves fomented by he knowes whom he cannot but see as well as we lament And hereupon he proceeds with sundry complaints of my dealing with them And now Chistian Reader what shall we say to these things A naked supposition of no strength nor weight that will not hold in any thing or case namely that a thing is not to be judged capable of that which by some externall force it is withheld from is the sole bottome of all this charge The Churches of England were capable of that reduction to their primitive institution under the prelates though in some things hindred by them from an actuall Reducement so they are now in sundry places where the work is not so much as attempted the sluggards feild is capable of being weeded the present pretended want of capacity from the non-assistance of the magistrate whilest perfect liberty for Reformation is given and the worke in its severall degrees incouraged will be found to be a sad plea for some when things come to be tryed out by the rule of the Gospell And for our divisions I confesse I begin to discover somewhat more by whom they are fomented then I did four daies agoe for the matter it selfe I desire our Reverend Author to take notice that I judg every church capable of a reduction to its primitive institution which all outward hinderances being removed and all assistances granted that are necessary for reformation according to the Gospell may be reduced into the forme and order appointed unto a particular church by Jesus Christ and where any society is not so capable let them call themselves what they please I shall advise those therein who have personally a due right to the priviledges purchased for them by Jesus Christ in the way of their administration by him appointed to take some other peaceable course to make themselves partakers of them and forgiving this advise I neither dread the anger nor Indignation of any man living in the world And so I suppose by this time the Author knowes what is become of his quod erat demonstrandum and here in room of it I desire him to accept of this return Those who in the judgment of charity were and continue members of the church catholick invisible by vertue of their union with Christ the head thereof and members of the generall visible church by their due profession of the savings truths of the gospell and subjection to Christ Jesus their King and Saviour according to them do walke in love and concord in the particular churches whereof by their own consent and choice they are members not judging and condemning other particular churches of Christ where they are not members as they are such as to their stationand priviledges being ready for all instituted communion with thē as revealed are not according to any gospell rule nor by any principles acknowledged amongst Christians to be judged or condemned as guilty of Schisme but such are all they for whom under any consideration what ever I have pleaded as to their immunity from this charge in my treatise of Schisme therefore they are not to be judged so guilty If you please you may adde Quod er at demonstratum I shall not digresse to a recharge upon this Reverend Author and those of the same profession with him as to their mistakes and miscarriages in the work of Reformation nor discusse their waies and principles wherein I am not satisfied as to their proceduce I yet hope for better things then to be necessitated to carry on the defensative of the way wherein I walk by opposing theirs It is true that he who stands upon meer defence is thought to stand upon none at all but I wait for better things from men then their hearts will yet allow them to think of I hope the Reverend Author thinks that as I have reasons wherewith I am satisfied as to my own way so I have those that are of the same weight with me against him But what ever he may surmise I have no mind to foment the divisions that are amongst us hence I willingly bear all his imputations without retortion I know in part how the case is in the world The greatest chargers have not alwaies the most of truth witnesse Papists Lutherans Prelutists Anabaptists I hope I can say in sincerity I am for peace though others make themselves ready for war But we must proceed a litle further though as to the cause by me undertaken to be managed causelessely The discourse of our Author from the place fixed on wherein he faintly indeavoured to make good the foundation of this chapter which I have allready considered consists of two parts 1. His Animadversions on some principles which I lay down as necessary to be stated aright and determined that the question about gathering churches may be clearly and satisfactorily debated Some of them he saies have been handled by others which if it be a rule of silence to him and me it might have prevented this tedious debate what ever his thoughts may be of my pamphlet I do not fear to affirm of his Treatile that I have found nothing in it from the beginning to the ending but what
discipline instituted by Christ is corrupted among them with which corruption he dares not defile himselfe is no where in the Scripture called Schisme nor is that case particularly exemplified or expressely supposed whereby a Judgment may be made of the fact at large but we are left upon the whole matter to the guidance of such generall rules and principles as are given us for that end and purpose Such is my meanesse of apprehension that I could not understand but that either this assertion must be subscribed unto as of irrefragable verity or else that instances to the contrary must have been given out of the Scripture for on that hinge alone doth this present controversie and that by consent turne it selfe But our Reverend Author thinks good to take another course for which his reasons may easily be conjectured and excepts against the assertion it selfe in Generall first as ambiguous and fallacious And then also intimates that he will scan the words in perticular Mihi jussa capessere c. 1. He saies that I tell not whither a man may separate where there is corruption in some one of these onely or in all of them nor 2. How farre some or all of these must be corrupted before we separate A. This is no small vanity under the sunne that men will not onely measure themselves by themselves but others also by their own measure Our Author is still with his finger in the sore and therefore supposes that others must needs take the same course Is there any thing in my assertion whither a man may separate from any church or no any thing upon what Corruption he may lawfully so do any thing of stating the difference betwixt the Presbiterians and Independants do I at all fix it on this foâ—t of account when I come so to doe I humbly beg of this Author that if I have so obscurely and intricately delivered my selfe and meaning that he cannot come to the understanding of my designe nor import of my expressions that he would favour me with a command to explain my selfe before he engage into a publicke refutation of what he doth not so clearly apprehend Alas I do not in this place in the least intend to justify any separation nor to shew what pleas are sufficient to justify a separation nor what corruption in the church separated from is necessary thereunto nor at all regard the controversie his eye is allwaies on but onely declare what is not comprised in the precise Scripture notion of Schisme as also how a Judgment is to be made of that which is so by me excluded whither it be good or evill Would he have been pleased to have spoken to the businesse in hand or any thing to the present purpose it must not have been by an inquiry into the grounds reasons of separation how farre it may be justified by the plea mentioned or how farre not when that plea is to be allowed and when rejected but this only was incumbent on him to prove namely that such a separation upon that plea or the like is called Schisme in the Scripture and as such a thing condemned What my concernment is in the ensuing observations that the Judaicall Church was as corrupt as ours that if a bare plea true or false will serve to justifie men all separatists may be justified he himselfe will easily perceive But however I cannot but tell him by the way that he who will dogmatize in this controversy from the Judaicall Church and the course of proceedings amongw them to the direction and limitation of duty as to the churches of the Gospel considering the vast important differences between t he constitutions of the one the other with the infallible obligation to certain principles on the account of the typicall institution in that Primitive Church when there neither was nor could be any more in the world must expect to bring other Arguments to compasse his designe then the analogie pretended For the justification of Separatists of the reason if it will ensue upon the examination for separation and the circumstances of the seperating whereunto I referre them let it follow and let who will complain But to fill up the measure of the mistake he is ingaged in he tells us pag. 75. that this is the pinch of the question whither a man or a company of men may separate from a true Church upon a plea of CorruptioÌ„ in it true or false set up another Church as to ordinances renouncing that Church to be a true Church This saith he is plainely our case at present with the Doctor and his Associates truly I do not know that ever I was necessitated to a more sad and fruitlesse imployment in this kind of labour and travaile Is that the question in present agitation is any thing word title or iota spoken to it is it my present businesse to state the difference between the Presbyterians and Independents do I anywhere do it upon this account do I not every where positively deny that there is any such separation made nay can common honesty allow such a state of a question if that were the businesse in hand to be put upon me are their ordinances and churches so denied by me as is pretended what I have often said must again be repeated The Reverend Author hath his eye so fixed on the difference between the Presbyterians and the Independants that he is at every turn lead out of the way into such mistakes as it was not possible he should otherwise be overtaken withall this is perhaps mentis gratissimus error But I hope it would be no death to him to be delivered from it When I laid downe the principles which it was his good will to oppose I had many things under consideration as to the settling of Conscience in respect of manifold oppositions and to tell him the truth least valued that which he is pleased to mannage and to look upon as my sole intendment if it be not possible to deliver him from this strong imagination that carries the images and species of Independency alwaies before his eies we shall scarce speak ad idem in this whole discourse I desire then that he would take notice that as the state of the controversy he proposes doth no more relate to that which peculiarly is pretended to ly under his consideration then any other thing whatever that he might have mentioned so when the peculiar difference between him and the Independents comes to be mannaged scarce any one terme of his state will be allowed Exceptions are in the next place attempted to be put in to my assertion that there is no example in the Scripture of any one Churches departure from the union which they ought to hold with others unlesse it be in some of their departures from the common faith which is not Schisme much with the same successe as formerly let him produce one instance and En Herbam I grant the Roman church on a