swore by a good Man by which 't is evident how the grosse superstition of the Church of Rome hath crooked silly Souls and that all such images are teachers of Lies very vanities as the Scripture shews and reason demonstrates For to say nothing of the Blasphemous images of God the Father and the holy Trinity doth not the image of any Saint whom these pseudo-Catholicks worship lie to their imaginations representing that which is not for nothing but the Soules and Spirits of those Saints do now remain so that whilest they picture and worship them in bodily shapes which pictures represent what is not they worship they know not what praying onely to the Soules of Saints yet phansying them in bodily shapes as when they lived here on earth how doth it concern all Serious Christians to beware of the Religious worship of any creature of Gods or mans makeing of Angell Saint or Image which is so expressly forbidden in the word of God And surely if we might worship the picture of a man which is mans Creature 't were much more rational to worship a true man yea the Son Moon and Starrs and all thâ— host of heaven they being all of them the Creatures of Almighty God Firm. You rightly conclude were not a judiciall blindness upon the eyes of our adversaries they could not be Guilty of so dangerous a suspition Dub. I shall trouble you but with one reason more for my forsakeing the Church of Rome which was breifely their praiers in an unknown tongue a practise manifestly contrary to plain Scripture and the antient Doctors of the Church a most unreasonable service opposite to that which we are to perform to Almightâ— God 'T is so bafled by St. Paul that all the learned â—en of the Roman party have nothing of sence or reason to answer and as for antiquity 't was not so much as thought upon in the first ages in the Church the Liturgies then every where were in the known and vulgar tongue otherwise how should the unlearned say Amen The practise of the Church of Rome is in this as in divers other of their fopperyes a very mistery of iniquity I could heartily wish that for the undeceiveing of ignorant Papists their Missales Pontifical's Breviaryes Lady Psaltres c. were translated into the English and other vulgar tongues that such poore deluded soules might see to what absurd prayers they say Amen to what childish ridiculous Ceremonies they â—ubmit I might here add the vain Reptitions of so many Ave-Maria's Pater-noster's upon their beads their saying of them at certain houres as a Pensum or taske or a Pennance to make a Compensation for their sins rather then as a willing serious duty from the heart and soule which is not Religious praying but a Childish saying of prayers a vain heathenish babling after the manner of an old wises charm resting in the work done as if the bare saying of prayers without any intention of the mind were the only end of praying or the effectuall â—ervenâ— prayer of a Righteous man Iam. 5.16 I might also add their cheating Purgatory their purchasing of pardons and indulgences for sins past and for many hundred yeares to come by sums of money sett downe in the Tax booke of their Chancery their Pilgrimages and bodily Severityes to expiate for the sins of their soules their allowing of Brothell houses to Gratiâ—ye the unmarried Clergy and others in their unclean Lusts for which the Pope receives a luâ—ty Pension But to deale truely with you no one thing wrought a greater dislike of Popery in me then their barbarous bloody Cruelâ—y towards those that they please to call Haereticks their savage inquisition their Parisian Irish and other massacres their marian Butcherings their intended matchless powder treason their poysoning and stabing of kings their Justifieing of Rebellion and all manner of wickedness by their right intention and Doctrine of probability as is to be seen in the first and second part of the mistery of Jesuitisme in the Jesuites Morralls can such Villany such Cruelty and Christianity stand together did Christ and his Apostles propagate the Gospel with such Carnall weapons how severely does our Saviour rebuke his angry disciples when they would have called for fire from heaven to destroy the uncivill Schismatical Samaritans yâ—e know not what spirit yee are of for the son of man is not come to dâ—stroy mens lives but to save them Luk. 9.55 O that Christs pretending Vicar had the spirit of the meeke and holy Jesus These Sir were the reasons which moved me to forsake the Communion of the Church of Rome for upon this account I could not believe her to be the Catholick Church or any sound part of it but a very Schismatical Haeretical one that had departed exceeding much from Primitive Christianity from the faith that was once delivered to the Sainâ—s Firm. You have given very sufficient reasons for your departure from that unsound Church which may satisfie any serious considering Christian and you have saved me the trouble of any further addition to them I am now fully perswaded that you are neither Atheist Infidel or Papist pray you let me know what is your present perswasion and what Church you most â—pprove Dub. Truely Sir there are so many sects amongst the Protestants that I am in no small doubt with which of them to hold Commuion but my inclination leads me chiefly to returne to my old Mother the Church of England from which most unhappily as I am now convinced I heretofore separated however for the removâ—l of some scruples which yet remain with me â— earnestly desire you to give your selfe the trouble of a short discourse concerning the severall sects now in England Firm. I shall most â—readily gratifie you In this your very reasonable request nothing doubting but that I shall by Gods Gratious assiâ—tance remove all your scruples and fix you a true son of that Church which is the most Catholick Apostolical Church now exstant in all the world which those that do acknowledge the holy Scriptâ—re to be the infallible word of God the perfect Rule of all the substantialls of Christianity both for faith and manners and have some competent knowledge in the records of antiquity the want of which is one great cause of hâ—resy and schism as to be able to trace Christian Religion through the severall ages of the Church from the Apostles down to these presenâ— times I say those that do acknowledge these things cannot doubt of Dub. You much confirm me in what I have often heard from grave and learned men that one great cause of errours in Religion is ignorance in the writings of the ancient Doctors of the Church Councels and Ecclesiasticall histories this is not every mans work that have neither books to read nor brains to understand them and that tâ—e surest way to be an Orthodox Christian is by studying descendendo beginning with the records of the first century then
the folly and madness of this Phanaticism and from whence it sprang please you we will discourse of Anabaptisme pray you what do you think of that DIALOGVE V. against Anabaptisme Firm. ANabaptism is a most carnal and bloody Sect as appears by the History of Iohn of Leiden Knipperdoling wrot by Sleiden and Bullenger Dub. But what do you think of their opnion â—oncerning Infâ—nt Baptism I shall not trouble you with other of their Tenents which are common to them with other Schismaticks Firm. That Opinion of theirs is contrary to Scripture and the practise of the Catholick Church Dub. I have often heâ—rd them say That if there were any express Text in Scripture for the Baptisiâ—g of Infants they would allow of that practise Firm. Though there be no express place in Scripture for it as there was for Circumcising of Children under the law yet there are many Texts which do infer it by rational consequence What express Text is there for the Communicating of Woemen which nevertheless the Anabaptists practise have they not express Texts for obeying the Civil Magistrate for taking an Oath before him thou shalt swear the Lord liveth in justice in judgment and truth Thou shalt fear the Lord and swear by his name I call God for a recâ—rd upon my Soul an Oath for Confirmation is not was an end of all strife And we have the Angel in the Revelation which was never under the Levitical law swearing Yoâ— see here are express Texts for obedience to Magistrates and for taking an Oath before them yet the Anabaptists will not swear at all which is a moral duty enjoyned in the third CoÌ„mandment and how obedient they are to the Supream powers let Germany and England witness in our â—ate Civil Wars so that you may see that if there were an express Text for Infant Baptism they would not yeild unto it but follow their own wild imaginations Dub. Doubtless 't is grand hypocrisy to call for express Texts for Infants-Baptism and yet to act directly against such Texts in other points of Necessary duty Firm. True it is we have no express Texts for Infants-Baptism yet we have many that do necessarily infer it as that of our Savioâ—r suffer little Children â—o come unto me which he took in his Arms and Blessed certainly those that were capable of his blessing were capable of the seal of it The children of believers are said to be holy The promise is to you and to your children Go teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost All which places evidently shew that the children of believing Christians have as much right to baptism as the children of the Jews had to Circumcision unless we should say that the Lord was more gratious to the Jews then he is to us Christians and that the hand of his mercy is shortned to us which was so much stretched out to them If their Children were in Covenant with God as it is evident they were Deut. 29.11 then are the Children of Christians under the same priviledge unless any man can give a good reason to the contrary which must be drawn either froÌ„ the Mercy or Judgment of God There is no shew of reason to say 't was from his Judgment much less from his Mercy for who dare say 't is a mercy not to be in Covenant with God To these Texts of Scripture we may add the practise of the Catholick Church for Fifteen hundred years as appears by the writers in their several Centuries which is the best Commentary upon the Scripture The Fathers who lived in the first ages of the Church had a fairer oâ—poâ—tunity to understand the meaning of the Apoâ—tles and their immediate successors then we that live at so great a distance Tertullian one of the most Ancient of them confesseth the practise of Infant Baptism tho he does not approvâ— it Cyprian and Fidus would never have contendeâ— about the â—ircumstance of time if they had doubted of the lawfulness of the thing I mâ—y add to what has been said Either the Baptising of Infants is a small error or 't is a great and gross one if iâ— be but a small error an error of Charity towards poor Infants why did the Anaâ—apâ—iâ—ts in the late times of confusion separate from those Churches which did not impose it as a necessary conâ—ition of Communion with them If it be a great and gross one then the Catholick Church has maintained a gross error for Fifteen hundred years and upward How then was that promise made good unto it that Christs spirit should lead it into all truth and that the gates of Hell should not prevail against it Dub. Indeed those Texts of Scripture so well explained by the practise of the Catholick Church â—or so many years since the time of the Apostles is an evident argument for the proof of Infant Baptism but are you certain that Infant Baptism was practised in the Primitive times Firm. We are most certain from the writings of the Fathers in those times Irenaeus lib. 2. cap. 39. Origen lib. 5. in cap. 6. ad Rom. Cyprian lib. 3. Epist. 8. ad â—idum Hieronymus lib. 3. contra Pelagianos Nazian Oraâ—iones in sacrum lavacrum Basil Orat. Exhort ad Baptismum Chrisost. Homil. 1. ad Neophyr Augustine lib. 10. de Gen. cap. 23. The custome of Baptising Infants is an Apostolical Tradition lib. 4. de Baptismo cap. 24. idem affâ—rmat Prosper lib. 22. de Vocatione Geâ—tium cap. 8. These three Fathers making use of the Baptising of Infants as an argument against the Pelagians who denyed Original Sin which practise of Infant Baptism these subtile Hereticks durst never deny because they knew 't was the practise of the Catholick Church Dub. 'T is strange thâ—t so mâ—ny Testimonies of the Antient Doctors of the Church with such evident places of Scripture before allegd should not silence these perverse men Firm. By terming them perverse you render a just reason why neither Scripture nor Fathers nor Arguments â—ill satisfie them few of this Sect or indeed of any other are Leâ—rned except it be their Leaders Popish Priests and Jesuits which spread such errors by design to make divisions among us that they might â—eign Now 't is no strang thing to see ignorance and perversness to dwell under the â—ame roof for whosoever is capable of Conviction must have some knowledg and reason that he may be able to understand the force of an argument when 't is proposed unto him as seduced Sectaries being men of very short discourse do not Besides that little portion of reason which remains in them is so beclouded with selâ—conceit interest and faction prejudice pride and uncharitableness thâ—t they have utterly loâ—t all use of it He that doubts of this let him discourse either with Quaker or Anabaptist and he will find them a very proud ignorant conceited perverse people Dub. I have sufficient experience of their Pride and Perversness
Imprimatur RAD. BATHVRST Vice-Can Oxon. FIRMIANUS and DVBITANTIVS OR Certain DIALOGUES Concerning Atheism Infidelity Popery and other Heresies and Schisme's that trouble the peace of the Church and are destructive of Primitive Piety VVritten in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians By THO. GOOD D.D. Master of Baliol Colledge in Oxon. Take heed Brethren least there be in any of you an evil heart of unbeleif in departing from the living God Heb. 3.12 OXFORD Printed by L. LICHFIELD Printer to the University for THO. HANCOX Book-seller in Hereford 1674. To the Reader COnsidering the many Learned and judicious Tracts that are extant against Atheism Infidelity Popery with other Heresies Sects Schisms destructive of the Antient Catholick Religion and of that Peace and Vnity Love and Charity which is the badge and mark of Christs sheep I thought it superfluous to add my poor Scrible after such fair Copy's but observing the length and learning of those elaborate Tractat's which many men have neither money to buy leasure to read nor judgment to understand I conceived that these few short Discourses not fitted nor indeed intended for the perusal of the learned might nevertheless be gratum opus agricolis not altogether unprofitable for men of ordinary Capacityes to which purpose I have used such means and methods That I might be the better understood by these men I have endeavoured that the matter of these discourses for the most part might be plain and familiar the phrase and expressions intelligible I have made use of two feigned names Firmianus and Dubitantius to personate the sound Believer and the doubting Sceptick Christian who are brought upon the Stage disputing by way of Dialogue which is most suiteable to men of short discourse and most apt to comply with their apprehension I hope the more learned Reader if any such shall give themselves the trouble to peruse this little Manuel will not Censure the plainness of it but rather commend the Charity of the Author toward the wâ—ll meaning Christian who amongst those many Treatises that have been written can meet with very few that are calculated for his Meridian and consequently is apt to be blown about with every wind of doctrine by the slight of men and cunning craftines whereby they lye in wait to deceive and who these gamesters are he that has but half an eye may see and how many a poor soul has in these times of confusion been blown about from one erroneous opinion to another until he has turned Seeker Scheptick and at last down right Atheist there is no man so great a stranger in our Hierusalem that can be ignorant Wherefore if these short and familiar discourses may have the happiness to prevent the falling of any unsetled wavering soul or to restore any that has fallen to a sound mind 't will be my great satisfaction and rejoying to be able to apply to my self that of St. James cap. 5.19 Brethren if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him let him know that he that converts a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins Now the God of truth and peace grant that these poor and weak endeavours may work that good effect upon the erring seduced sinner and that the multitude of my sins may be covered with the long white robe of my blessed Saviours righteousness for his holy name sake Amen Thine in the truth that is iâ— Christ Jesus THO. GOOD DIALOGUE I. Against ATHEISME Firm. GOod morrow to my old Friend Dubitantius Dub. A good day to you Firmianus Firm. Methinks I read some discontent in your face what may be the cause of it Dub. There is a great cause I have been so long distracted betwixt diversity of Opinions in point of Religion that I am now doubting whether there be any Religion at all or any Supream invisible Deity to be worshipped Firm. This is the common result of vain Janglings that they usually end in Atheism and Infidelity But pray tell me is it possible that there should be such fierce disputes and bitter contentions about a very nothing Certainly such sharp disputes about the various manners of Gods worship do strongly argue that Religion is a thing of highest concern or that all the wisest men that ever were in the world are Fooles and madmen to oppose hate malign persecute one another even unto death for a groundless fancy a very nothing Dub. Your discourse is very Rational for I suppose wise men would never wrangle about a meer Romance yet I confess I have had strange irrational thoughts against the very Being of God and the truth of any Religion Firm. You justly term such thoughts irrational Did not I once tell you that when you had forsâ—ken your Mother the Church of England the most Apostolical Catholick in the whole world in short time you would become a Libertine an Atheist any thing or nothing Dub. Do you think that all Nonconformists and Separatists from your Church are Libertines and Atheists Firm. I am not so uncharitable but I must tell you that causeless separation is a very greiveous sin and punished many times with the seveâ—est judgments such as are Spiritual blindness Hardness of heart and a Reprobate mind Dub. I fear those judgments have overtaken me for since I became a Separatist from your Church I have been very cold at my Devotion made little conscience of publick or secret Praier of Obedience to those powers which God has ordained of Love Charity Honesty and Upright dealing towards my neighbours I have lived an Atheist in practise so long that I am now ready to be an Atheist in Opinion and to say with the foole in the 14. Psal. There is no God I have so long sâ—ept out of one opinion into another that at length I am become a very Sceptick in Religion doubting of all and fixing upon none Firm. Truly Sir you made good your name by your practise which renders you a right Dubitantius But pray tell me by what degrees and methods you have stept out of our Church into the borders of Atheism that I may with the more facility bring you back the same way by which you have unhappily gone out from us into the bosome of your dear Mother Dub. Your Demand is reasonable 'T is not unknown to you that I was once a true son of the Church of England you shall hereafter know for what reasons I left her Communion and became a Presbyterian and to be breif I stay'd not long in that opinion but presently I proceeded Independent then Anabaptist then Quaker then Papist then Antiscripturist then what you now find me almost an Atheist Firm. I hope you are not fixed in that wretched Opinion as resolvedly to deny him a being that gave you yours Dub. Sir I am not but have many doubts whether there be and as many thoughts that there is not
enemies to Christianity acknowledg but besides their Testimony which being from adversaryes is vâ—â—y cogent we have the tradition of the Catholick Church in all ages and most places of the world for 1600 years and upwards and as he that will go up by the side of the River will at last come to the head and fountain of it so he that shall ascend through the several Centuries of the Church will at last infallibly come to the head of it Christ Iesus to the place of his Nativity his Preaching and mighty Works that he did his bitter death and bloody passion or if he shall descend from Christ through the same Centuries down to this present time he may be farr more certain of the birth and life and works and sufferings of this our bessed Saviour of the writings of the Holy Evangelists and Apostles then that there have been such men in the world as Alexander the great Iulius Caesar Pompey Scipio Hannibal of the Warrs and noble Acheivements managed by them of William the Conquerour the Barons warrs and yet none but a fool or a mad man or one that has vowed to believe no farther then what he can see with his own eyes will doubt of these for that the tradition which conveys the same of these Worthies and their Actions down unto us is nothing so general as that of the Catholick Church neither is it at all practical but purely historical wherein we are not at all concerned whether or no the things reported of those noble warriours be true or false Dub. He that will not assent to what is delivered by universal Tradition takes away the use of one of the most noble Sciences in the world viz. History and wants rather a Cudgel then an Arguâ—ent to confute him T is evident by undeniable tradition that there were such persons as Christ and his Apostles that thay did great and marveilous things but how shall we know whether the works which they did were true miracles surely t is very difficult to know what is true and what is an imposture Firm. Thô at present this may appear difficult to you yet I hope I shall make this difference as manifest to you as is that which is betwixt Gold and drosse And here I will not trouble you with the niceties of the schoolemen betwixt mirum miraculum that a true miracle is arduum insoliâ—um supra vim naturae hard unusuall and above the powèr of nature that it differs from a â—alse one in the efficient material and formall cause which is ignotum per ignotius But to wave such subtilties a true miracle may be known from a false one 1. By the successe as Exod. 7.12 t is said Aarons rod swallowed up those of the sorcerers and in the primitive times t is cleare how the miracles wrought by the Apostles swallowed up in effect all false ones â—one by satanâ— Instruments how notwithstanding all those lying wonders wrought by Simon Magus Apollonius and others the prejudicating world was brought over from Idolatry and superstition to embrace poor persecuted Christianity by those true miracles which otherwise had been the greatest miracle in the world 2. A true miracle may be known from that which is a jugle or imposture by the design or end of it which is for the confirmation of a divine revelation to bring men over to the worship of the true God to propagate the true Religion the end of false ones is to draw men from this worshâ—p which note of difference God himself has stamp'd upon false miracles Deut. 13 Dub. But doe not you now run into the same erroâ—r which you so lately condemned in others for by what you have said I must first know which is the true Religion before I can know which is a true miracle and surely then there will be no use of miracles to confirme me in the truth of what I knew before Firm. there is a mutuall confirmation betwixt the true religion and a true miracle true Religion does give light to miracles these do seal and confirm that Religion We see that all discursive knowledge does arise from some precedent knowledge untill we ascend to such principles that are clear to the light of nature now evident it is to natural reason that there is a God Creatour of all things that there is but one God that this one God ought to be religiously worshipped the intelligent and learned heathens have acknowledged all these Again 't is evident that there were never but four general Religions in the world Paganisme Turcisme Judaisme and Christianity and I think I have already made it manifest that of all these Religions none is so râ—tional or such a reasonable service as is that of the Christian which for the substance of it is the oldest of all others being the same which was practised by the fathers both before and after the flood for the spirituality morality and unity of the God heaâ— worshipped 't is excellent beyond all others most agreeable to the Common principles and notices of the reasonable Soul Here upon any serious sober man may conclude that all these miracles which have been â—ttempted to draw men from Christianity are but mere impostures and those that have been wrought for the confirmation of it wherein one true God of infinite majesty wisdome power and glory is worshipped in spirit and truth are the only true miracles Dub. Pray Sir excuse me this unnecessary trouble which I have given you for by what you had said before concerning the supereminent excellency of the Christian Religion above all others I might have seen the force of your reasoning which as I conceive stands thus If the Christian Religion be the only tâ—ue Religion then those miracles which were wrought for the Confirmation of it are the only true miracles Firm. You rightly conclude I shall therefore proceed to the third note or marke of a true mirâ—cle and that is the effect and consequent of such a miracle which is the drawing of the mind from sin to God the primitive Christians much insisted on this as an undoubâ—ed evidence of tâ—e miracles wrought by Christ that they were done by divine power because the effect that followed them was the worke of conversion of Souâ—â— from sin and Idoâ—s to Goâ— and Christ and all true piety and holinesse of life they tended mainly to the overthrow of Satans Kingdome Christ by his miracles did not only disposesse Satan out of mens bodies but out of his Temples upon this accouâ—t he convinces the Scribes and Pharises of most irrational blasphemy when they objected against him that he did cast out devills by the power of the devill but he replyed every Kingdome divided against it selfe cannot stand Mat. 12.25 Besideâ— Christs doctrine which he confirmed by miraclâ—s was in every thing contâ—â—â—y to the devils dâ—sign which was to draw men from the worship of the true God that himself might be worshiped to insnare men in the practise
either 2. They are under a judiciall blindness God has given them reason and understanding eyes that they might see hearts that they might understand but they wilfully shut their eyes against that light and then by the just judgment of Almighty God this light is taken from them they are given up to blindness of mind and hardness of heart as were the antient heathens Rom 1. 3. Their lives are utterly contrary to the holy nature of God to his sacred word there is an antipathy an emnity betwixt their Debaucheries their filthiness their profaneness and his most holy laws Rom. 8.7 every line of it flyes in their faces threatening them with hel and damnation whereupon they cavil with they quarrell against it they wish there were neither God to punish nor scripture to threaten Destruction against them and so by insensible degrees they are brought to think and say in their heart there is no God as the foole did Psal. 14. so true is that of the poet quod nimis miseri volunt hoc facile crâ—dunt the thoughâ—â— and imaginations of wretched men are governed by their desires they hate the light because their deeds are evil though their understandings are convinced by unansweareable arguments and reasons of the truth of these great principles yet they will not believe them such is the perverseness of their will that it either blinds their mind or else draws them against self Conviction to believe a Lye and to hold the conclusion against the most evident proofes and premises Dub. I am perswaded that you have given very good reasons why so many are Atheists and infidels and that the cheifest of them are irreligious and prophane livers that practical Atheisme is the greatest cause of that which iâ— dogmaticall or Atheism in opinion 'T was the foole that said in his heart there waâ— no God first he was a foole i. e. a sinner and very wicked as he is discribed in that psalm and thence he proceeded Atheist a foole in practise and then a fool in judgment for t is most certain that a corrupt and wicked life is the true parent of ungodly and vile opinions froâ— which by Gods blessing upon your good endeavoures I am now delivered and am fully perswaded that God is and that he is a rewarder of all those that diligently seeke him that the holy scripture is undoubtedly the word of God and consequently that the Christian Religion is the onely true religion but observing that of those who profess this Religion there are severall parties and t is not unknown to you that heretofore I have adhaered to the Church of Rome I would willingly learn from you which party they of Rome or we of England be most Orthodox and Catholick Firm Your demand is rationall I shall most willingly Gratifie you in itâ— oâ—ely you must give me leave to propose these Two questions to you and let me receive your answâ—r unto them at our next meeting 1. What Inducements you had to turne to the Church of Rome 2. What Reasons you had to leave it Dub. You must give me leave also to recollect my selfe that I may be â—he better able to give in my answer to your Quaeries DIALOGVE III Against POPERY Firm. I Hope you have well considered of the questions which I lately proposed unto you Dub. To the first I returne this answer My reasons that induced me to adhere to the Church of Rome were these 1. The Antiquity of that Church which has continued ever since the Apostles time when by the testimony of St. Paul her faith was spoken of throughout the world Rom. 1.8 2. The universality of it no Church has spread it self so farr and nere upon the face of the earth as that of Rome 3. Her consent in Doctrine with the primitive Church 4. The unity of it under one infallible head which cannot err in poynt of faith or manners 5 The sanctity of it's Doctrine that 't is free from errour in matters of â—aith free from all immorality and improbity in point of manners 6. The sanctity of life in the authors and first-fathers of the Roman Religion these were the chief motives that caused me to adhere to the Church of Rome Firm. Indeed these are six of those 15 notes which Bellaâ—mine Lib. 4. de not Eccle. and others of his perswasion appropriate to that Church but had you not some other inducements As first a vitious life and the cheap and easy pardon of your Sins upon confession of them to a priest his absolution and injunction of a pitifull pennance 2dly were you not under some discontent for your present low Condition or 3dly were you not ambitious of preferment deeming popery to be a ready way to it or 4thly were you not tickled with the Cunning extolling of your excellent parts by some subtile Jesuite lamenting your sad Condition that a person oâ— so rare endowments should be so miserably mistaken in the great concern of your Soule perswading you that out of the Church there is no hope of salvation and that you being no member of the Church of Rome were past all peradventure out of the Church and unlesse you returned to that Church there could be no hope of your salvation or lastly before you set up for the Church of Rome were you serious and conscientiouâ— in any Religion for 't is very easy for one that is of no Religion that makes no consciencâ— of his waies being allured with the joyeâ— of heaven and affrighted with the terrours of Hell to pitch upon any Religion that confidently promises those and as confidently a freedome from these and we know that Priests and Jesuites want neither art nor impudence to perswaâ—e silly wretches that hopes of Heaven and deliverance from Hell are only to be found in their Church Dub. Truely Sir I am verily perswaded that many who have left your Church and gone over to that of Rome have stumbled at such straws but you have known me long to be a man of no vitious life no male Content not ambitious of honour or preferment not apt to be paffed up with a proud conceit of mine own parts not cold or carelesse in point of Religion but the chiefe reasons that moved me to goe over to the Church of Rome were those before named which made me believe that Church to be the only true Catholick Church out of which there could be no hope of salvation to these I beg your answer Firm. And you shall have it 1. The doctrine of the present Church of Rome which alone could denominate her ancient Catholick and Apostolicall is in severall weighty points quite contrary to holy scripture neither hath it the generall consent of the fathers and Doctors of the Catholick Church the prâ—sent Church of Rome is no more like to what it once was in the purest primitive times than an old decrepit man full of diseases Gout Stone Palsy Dropsy Scurvey Blindnesse Deafnesse Wrinkles and a multitude of
discending to the second thence to the third and so on to the succeding ages of the Church whereby he will perceive how the true Religion has been handed downe from one age to another and how and when this or that errour sprang up as he â—hat sails down some great and clear pure river may easily perceive where little Rivuletts and puddles have run into it and have muddyed and troubled the Cleareâ— Stream Firm. I much approve of what you say concerning the rise and cause of errours in Religion the chiefe reason of them is ignorance in the records of Antiquity and holy Scriptures and want of orderly proceeding in our studies from age to age whereby we may easily perceive how and when the puddles corrupt rivuleâ—s of errour have troubled the purer stream of Christianity and you may without much labour perceive that if you had been well instructed in the being and Attributes of Almighty God in a firm beliefe of his most sacred word you had never fallen into those most dangerous errours of Popery Quakerism or oâ— any such pernicous sect Dub. I do confesse my error and especially that I was so great a stranger not onely to the writings of the fathers but to the holy Scripture it selfe which I did too much neglect and scorn but seeing by Gods blessing upon your endeavours I am fully satisfied of the vanity absurdity and falshood of Atheism infidelity and Popery if you please to give your self thâ—t trouble we will proceed in our discourse concerning Quakerism Anabaptism Independency and Presbytery I shall not trouble you with any other sect because they are all included in some one of these or at least are so vain and ridiculous that we should do them to much honour if we should gratifie them with a sober and serious confutation Firm. I shall most willingly embrace your proposall and if it please you we will proceed to Quakerism the errour which you embraced immediatly before you turned Papist and in truth 't is a faire introduction to Popery and by many grosse errours which the Quakers embrace 't is as evident as the light at noon day who were the fathers of those spurious brats Dub. This is a very truth the Quakers holding many things which are maintained by Papists we may easily know whose Children these poor deluded Souls are and the Corespondence betwixt them made my passage to Rome more ready and easy DIALOGVE IV Against QVAKERISM Firm. You have informed me in our last discourse that being sometime a quaker you had a ready way open to become a Papist I pray tell me why and how you turned a quaker Dub. You put me hard to it for I can give yoâ— no verâ— good reasons for that change and those that moved me are so ridiculous that I am almost ashamed to name them yet such as they are I shall give you the trouble of hearing them I am almost perswaded that the man that perverted me used some enchantments and Diabolicall arts so that I was rather bewitched then rationally perswaded to be of that party as I have heard some have been but because I am not certain of this I shall wave it and shew you my reasons 1. I observed that the cause why there were so many sects and schisms in the world was for want of a certain infallible rule to guide us in our judgments and practises as I was made believe and I was perswaded that the Quakers had such a rule to wit the light within them 2. I observed these men to be very demure in their carriage very austere in their lives sober and tempâ—â—â—tâ— of afflicted dejected countenances very punctuall and just in their dealings not abating one fartâ—ing of the price of any commodity they first demanded greâ—t contemners of the world no respecters of any mans person how great soever so meeke humble and lowly in their apparell and behavior that they cannot endure the wearing of gold-rings silver or silks in themselves or any others and if any man should strike them on the one cheek these poore innocent soules were so farr from revenge that they would turne the other so that I conceiued them to be so many Nathaniels so many true Israelites in whom there was no guile Firm. How could you be deceived by such painted sepulchers what could you see more in them then what was conspicuous in the Scribes and Phariâ—ees of old take iâ— for an infalible rule that whosoever hold or practise any thing which is contrary to the law of nature and good manners expresse Scripture the usages of all sober and civill people in the world are so farr from being true Christians that they are not worthy the name of men Dub. I am fully of your perswasion that these men hold and practise many things which are contrary to the law of nature good manners and holy Scripture but for my farther satisfaction let us discourse some of their tenents and practises Firm. For their tenents you may at your leisure peruse the Synopsis of Quakerisme wrote by Mr. Danson The heads whereof are breifly these taken out of their owne writings which are a mixture of Popery and Socinianisme as 1. They affirm that there are not three persons in the Trinity 2. That Christ did not make satisfaction for the sins of men 3. That justification is not by imputed righteousness but that our owne inhaerent righteousness and good works is the cause of our justification 4. That a state of perfection and freedome from sin is attainable in this life 5. That there is a light in every man sufficient to guide him to salvation 6. That the Scripture is not the word of God or a standing rule of faith and manners 7. That there is no resurrection of the dead 8. That there is no need or use of ordinances as Baptisme and the Lords Supper 9. That 't is unlawfull to take an oath before a Magistrate upon any account whatsoever Dub. I know these and many more to be the positions of quakers and that they are directly contrary to sacred Schripture Firm. These things are so clearly confuted by the expresse word of God and tradition of the Catholick Church that 't is superfluous to trouble you with any further discourse about them As for their practises they are extreamly opposite to all good manners and the Civilities of aâ—l Nations that are not grosly barbarous as well as â—o the holy Scripture and whereas you have observed their carriages to be very demure austere and that they are of a sad countenance 't is no more then what our blessed Saviour reproved in the Scribes and Pharisees long since indeed to be sad and mourn in times of publick Humiliation Calamities and great Judgements is Christian but to be constanly so savours too much of the Pharisee and is contrary to holy Scripture which instructs us there is a time to Laugh as well as to Weepe there is nothing which more delights and cheers the