when the matter was brought before the Pope he tooke such blessed order with it as was very méete for his Apostolike See to wit that the Friars new scandalous booke secreto combureretur should be priuily burned for shaming their order say you And what fault was that I pray you Know you not how S. Augustine vsed Pelagius and his disciples in the beginning of their new doctrine when he first wrote against them Tacenda adhuc arbitratus Aug. Retr li. 2. ca. 33. c. I thought good not to expresse as yet their names hoping that so they might more easily be amended Imo Pelagij ipsius nomen non sine aliqua laude posui quia vita eius a multis praedicabatur Yea in my next writing expressing the name of Pelagius himselfe I did it not without some prayse because his life was commended of many Thus did S. Augustin vse one Monke and him the author of a most pestilent Heresie as he proued afterwards And your Christian spirite would haue all the order all Monkes the innocent also shamed for the fault of a few Such would haue bene your care to amend those few and such your prouidence to saue the wheate whereof these fewe might haue made as gret waste if they had not bine wisely handled as Friar Luther now hath made for lacke of a siluer spurre and a Cardinals hatte and as Erasmus also might haue made had he not bene made of by Catholike Bishops farre aboue his merites Yet one shift more you may séeme to haue where you say for your argument ab authoritate negatiuè of the whole Scriptures authoritie negatiuely Pur. 449. And this conclusion M. Allen him selfe made of mans authoritie cap. 13. Purgatorie and prayers for the dead were not preached against at their first entry Ergo they are true or rather there was no such entrie of them as you imagine but they came lineally and quietly from the Apostles But of all mens authoritie it is false you say Howsoeuer the argument of all mens authoritie negatiuely be good or bad who but you would call this such a one All heresies according to the Scriptures Fathers and Histories haue bene preached against at their first entry This was neuer preached against Ergo this is no heresie nor neuer since the Apostles time did enter ¶ Names In the thrée next Demaundes I haue thrée easie and familiar notes by our bare names to know which side is right Ar. 66. and which is wrong To that generally Fulke saith He is a foolish sophister that reasoneth from names to the things In what Logike he hath that axiome I know not But this I know and you shal heare it * In the 7. Dem. See cap. 11. his 37. cōtr Aug. in Ps cōt partem Donat. Ar. 68. anone that also him selfe so reasoneth I know moreouer that S. Augustine so reasoneth Dicitis mecū vos esse saith the Church to the Donatists sed falsum videtis esse Ego Catholica dicor vos de Donati parte You say that you be with me But you see it is false For I am named Catholica and you Of Donates part S. Augustine I trow he will not call a foolish sophister nor him selfe a foolish sophister Againe he saith generally If the onely name of an honest man of a learned man of a good Christian is enough to proue the thing many a knaue asse hypocrite may proue himself an honest man a learned man a good Christian As though we said the argument to be good frō euery name to the thing No syr we say it no more but of thrée sort of names of which the Fathers said it before vs and experience teacheth it and you can not disproue it by giuing any instance For there are in it further reasons then onely arguing from names to things 6. Catholikes Motiue 1. Article 20. First then we say that sith the Apostles did bid vs beléeue that church which is named The Catholike Church euermore to this day they haue ben true Catholikes in déede which were in times of Heresies and Schismes commonly called Catholikes and easily knowen thereby For this we alleage among others S. Augustine wherof you take notice which may be written it is so rare a thing in this your booke against the Articles and go about to answere him with his owne words but very fondly as I haue shewed cap. 9. pag. 182. The rest that you haue is oppositions after your custome As where you oppose to this name your stale exception which here cap. 7. Ar. 69. you oppose to all things of Onely Scripture saying Wherfore howhoeuer you boast of the honorable name of Catholike except you proue that your opinions agree with the Scripture they are not Catholike in dede by Chrysostomes iudgement Againe By this you may see that Chrysostome thought it not sufficient to haue the name of Catholike Your folly in this allegation I detected cap. 9. pag. 172. neither is it Chrysostomes neither doth he speake of the name Catholike nor of the Apostles writings but of the Apostolike Sees writings Ar. 66. Another opposition You your selues will not account the Grecians now since their separation for true Christians And yet as many nations haue since then called them Catholikes as you are able to shew on your side Though they are not so called by you for no more are you so called by them Be bolde to say ynough how litle soeuer you be able to proue To saye the Grecians be called Catholikes is like as to say the Latines be called Catholikes which were forsooth a proper saying considering that not only we but you also be Latines But this I say that as among the Latine or Westerne Christians he that in common talke or writings heareth Catholikes named vnderstandeth vs therin not you so likewise if he heare the Catholike Gretians or the Catholikes of the East whether he be Latine or Gretian he vnderstandeth them that be with the Pope beléeue the holy-Ghost to procéede of the sonne also not the Schismaticall Heretical Gretians And therfore in this example is nothing to the contrarie but that they be true Catholikes which are knowen by the name of Catholikes And so much you say of the name and rule it selfe Now which of vs two haue that name whether we or you Ar. 66. The Heretike Gretians do not call vs Catholikes you say No more do you that be Heretike Latines But yet both you and they mistake not the person when common talke and bookes so calleth vs. Therfore I say we be true Catholikes On the other side you say Ar. 68. And we haue as many Nations and more then you haue that by publike authoritie call vs Catholikes and you Heretikes Who be so called any where by publike authoritie is not the question but who be commonly called knowen by that name Howbeit also of any such publike authoritie no man knoweth but your selfe But this
that the vniuersall Churches authoritie was alwayes counted so irrefragable that she would be and was beléeued vppon her onely word in all matters before she yéelded or we could conceiue the reasons of her doctrine And that S. Augustine wrote a booke vpon this against the Manichées which he called De vtilitate credendi Of the vtilitie of beléeuing first before you vnderstand Aug. retra li. 1. ca. 14. Because his friend Honoratus béeing a Manichée did irride in the discipline of the Catholike faith quod iuberentur homines credere that men were commaunded to beleue and not taught by certentie of the groundes certissima ratione what was true Which to our Doctor Fulke is so strange that of D. Allen saying he taketh it to be the naturall order of a Christian schole Pur. 4.5 he requireth to shew where he learned that methode affirmeth S. Paule Rom. 10. to teach a cōtrary order and calleth it a blind faith which must be thrust vpon mens consciences to be accepted before they see what ground it hath Whereas S. Paule doth not say that men must vnderstand the groundes of euery matter before they beléeue for that were contrary to his owne doing who did not alwayes to all at the first speake wisedome 1. Cor. 2. but that they must heare first the Churches preaching to know which be the articles before they can beléeue them And that is it which we say that hearing what the Church teacheth they may be bold to beleue it forthwith although they heare not or can not attaine to the groundes euen as they which heard Christ him selfe and his Apostles after him might boldly beléeue them As he also did worke those Myracles in the beginning to commend his own authoritie credite and thereby to draw vnto him a multitude which multitude should alwayes after him moue the worlde to beleeue as Myracles did at the first Au. de vtil cred ca. 13. S. Augustine in that booke deduceth this at large and concludeth Rectè igitur Catholicae disciplinae maiestate institutum est vt accedentibus ad Religionem fides persuadeatur ante omnia It is rightly therefore apoynted by the maiestie of the Catholike Churches Schole that they which come to Religion be first and formost moued or perswaded by certayne generall motiues to beleeue Wherefore I say that the Protestantes can not possibly be the Church because they do renounce the claime of suche authoritie I say also that neyther they nor no other secte in the world is so happy sure of their faith as we be hauing a Schoole and Masters that we may boldly beléeue in all thinges because Christ hath geuen them the Spirite of truth Ioan. 14. and to vs also accordingly sayth D. Allen the spirite of obedience But therunto Fulke answereth as more at large here cap. 7. pag. 90. That also the Protestantes wil be ruled by their Superiours What simply Ar. 58. so farre as their Superiours are ruled by Gods word Any other submission they allowe not O humble submission of yours who will ouerrule your Superiours as it were by Gods word and O worthy authoritie of theirs who by your owne cōfession may swarue from the truth of Gods word But howsoeuer the Protestantes are affected to their Superiours the Greeke Church with the Moschouites and Russianes in doubtes wil be ruled by their Patriarche of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall Churches by their chiefe Patriarches Bishops though they be not of our felowship and Catholike communion So you say But if you knewe the storie of the Florentine Councell wherein their Patriarches agréed with the Catholike Latines in all thinges and yet could not for all that reduce their Countries from Schisme you would not so say Ar. 83.84 And as towching your grammaticatiō vpon the article of our Créed I beleeue the H. Catholike Church I haue shewed plainly cap 8. pag. 138 out of antiquitie that the meaning of it is according to this presēt demaund I beleue in the H. Catholike Church And therefore you erre where you say To beleeue all and euery thing that the Catholike Church by commō consent doth maintayne is no article of our faith And is not this a goodly interpretation which you bring We say confesse against all Heretikes and Schismatikes I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church or that God hath an Vniuersall Congregation For what Heretike and Scismatike may not say the same And what Catholike may not also cōfesse that there is a Lutherane Church The meaning of the Créede is as I haue sayd I beléeue that to be the true Church whose name is Catholike as in the Articles afore going I beléeue that Christ which is named Iesus and that God who is the Creator and I beléeue all which the same Church doth bid me to beléeue as being the mouth of the Holy Ghost and by her being the communion or company of the Holy so that none be Holy which do not cōmunicate with her I beléeue that we haue remission of our sinnes in the Sacramentes and shall haue Resurrection of our bodies in glorie and for euer afterwardes in Soule and Bodye together lyfe euerlasting All which is the worke of our Sanctification and appropriated in the Créede to the Holy Ghost as our redemption to the Sonne and Creation to the Father In calling this a foolish and false interpretation you do but vtter your ignorance in the auncient Doctors They are the boyes that you count worthy to haue many stripes for their construing it otherwise then thus I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church Suppose the Apostles had said Credo S. Romanam Ecclesiam how would you haue construed it not I beleue that there is a Romane church for so much you may confesse being yet a Protestant but I beleeue the Romane Church And what should that meane but as I haue here sayd out of the Fathers As also against all Apocriphalles to say Credo Sanctas Scripturas Canonicas I beleeue the H. Canonicall Scriptures Item against Manicheus Montanus Luther and all other false-named Apostles or Euangelists of Christ to say Credo S S. Duodecim Apostolos Credo S S. quatuor Euangelistas I beleeue the H. Twelue Apostles I beleeue the H. Fower Euangelistes 35 Vnitie Motiue 27. Arti 15.17 Well of this irrefragable authoritie of Gods Church ouer vs and of our humble submission againe and affection vnto it procedeth I say in my next Demaund our inseperable vnitie Aug. cōtra Epi. Fund ca. 4. Ioan. 17. whiche S. Augustine in his Motiues to the Manichies calleth Confentionem Populorum atque Gentium Consenting of Peoples and Nations in one Which Christ in his prayer for it accompteth a most iust motiue for the world to beleeue in him But Fulke notwithstanding because his Protestantes haue it not Ar. 93. nor can not possibly atteyne vnto it telleth vs that also the Mahometistes and Turkes haue their
allow any dispensation in it be it otherwise neuer so iust As for any Law of Nature you can alleage none against the Churches dispensations no otherwise then against Gods owne dispensations in the time of the old Testament yea if you remember your selfe well they were allowed then some of them at the least by law also and not only by dispensation sometimes which you meane now to be against the Law of Nature Béeing so many wayes ignoraunt in Gods Lawe it is lesse meruaile that you be ignoraunt in the Churches Lawe and agayne in the Churches Diuinitie so that in one place you make it a thing certayne Pur. 35. that the Pope geueth his pardons by the Sacrament of penance As though the Pope beyng at Rome myght be minister of a Sacrament to one in England You might as well thinke that he doth excommunicate by the Sacrament of penance So great a Doctor doth not know that the power of binding and loosing is exercised many other wayes besides that Sacrament Yea not onely in our diuinitie but also in your owne you be so ignoraunt Pur. 13. that you wonder that a Catholike should say that God sometime punisheth sinne with sinne which is a position common to be séen in all Catholike Doctors Thom. 1.2 q. 87. ar 2. complaine that when you say but halfe so much we charge you to make God the Author of sinne Why is not that a common position and long discourses vpō it in your masters bookes that God is the author of sinne Cal. Insti li ca. 14. num 17.18 Melanct. in Epist ad Rom. If you be ashamed thereof and therefore doe say not as an euill author but as a righteous iudge I doe not reprehend you But if you say it of ignoraunce in your owne Scholes learning you must know that your Masters hold it of all sinnes alike as well of that sinne which goeth first in any man as of that sinne which commeth after in him and is sometime the punishment of the former sinne And therefore they holde it of God otherwise then as of a righteous iudge Ergo by your owne diuision as of an euill author For the difference betwéene them and vs is this They denie our Fréewill and make God to worke all sinne in vs in the same sort as he worketh all good in vs to wit per se willing appointing and predestinating vs to sinne euen no lesse then he which leadeth a blind man to fall But we say no more but that when a man hath sinned against him mortally God taketh away his inward grace and sometime also his outward assistance more or lesse according to his most iust will So as if a blinde mans guide should for his desert as because he wil néedes fall when he might stand forsake him either quite or for a time and he afterwardes fall the cause of that fall per se he onely is himselfe as of the former his guide onely per accidens though of the former neither per accidens Euen so doth God who is both the light of our eyes by his grace infused and also our guide by his infinite helpes externall Howbeit he dealeth not with vs all and alwayes according to his iustice but of his infinite mercie commonly he will not let vs fall when we will néedes fall and when we be fallen he will not let vs fall farther yea he raiseth vs often againe when we would lie still yea also when we resist him and fight against him rebelliously a notable example in S. Paules conuersion Act. 9. Iac. 1. that most worthily S. Iames is so vehement to hold and affirme that all good is of him but no euill at all not so much as tentation to euill Moreouer your great skill in Histories Ecclesiasticall appeareth by that you say Supra ca. 2. ca. 10. Dem. 11.3 Ar. 15.16 the Britons to haue kept their Easter so as the Asians did and the Latines to be departed from the Grecians in this present Schisme Which both I noted before Again because you say as it seemeth that Iulianus the Apostata was Emperour after Valens the Arrian Againe speaking of the Estern Churches of Asia at this presente that the newe Testament is printed in the Syrian tongue at the Emperours charges Ar. 6. for the encrease of Christian faith among them What Emperour and what faith I pray you but Catholike or Popish Pur. 373. Againe that the Fathers alleaging Succession of Bishops against Heretikes specially named the Church of Rome it was because those Heretikes for the most parte had beene sometimes of the Church of Rome as Valentinus Marcian Nouatus Those Heretikes that D. Allen speaketh of were not only the Valentinians and Nouatians but also the Donatistes the Arrians yea and all Heretikes in generall Now had the most part of these béen sometimes of the Church of Rome Yea Nouatus him selfe Supra p. 16 was he not a Priest of the Church of Carthage vnder S. Cyprian Who can reade S. Cyprian and be ignorant thereof specially now a dayes after that so many haue noted the error of some Gréeke Historians who in olde time and being farre of could not distinguishe Nouatus of Carthage from Nouatianus of Rome And also of Valentinus and Marcion where haue you that they were of Rome vnlesse all that goe to Rome be of Rome For so wée reade in Ireneus Iren. l. 3. ca. 4. li. 1. ca. 29. Philast in Catal. the time noted when Valentinus came to Rome for by Philastrius he was of Cypres and that Marcion was of Pontus being therefore called Ponticus You might in another sense say that they all other Heretikes were sometimes of the Church of Rome because all lightly were first Catholikes and al Catholikes were as all ought to be of that Churches communion And that to haue bene the cause why the Fathers named that Church specially But so you would not say because you woulde not condemne your selfe for a Schismatike Last of all where you must shew vs wherein the Communion of Saintes consisteth you shew your self againe a great clearke Pur. 199.200 The Scriptures make the Communion of Saints to be as is the Communion of our members in our body Yet you say One can not merite for another no not for him selfe but euery man hath his worthinesse of Christ As though neither Christ could merite for any other no nor for himselfe because he had his worthinesse of God Againe graunting that some of the members be here on earth and some elsewhere yet denying that they may either by prayer also helpe one the other you so define the Communion that you allow it no place for the prayers also of the members aliue to be made for others aliue But only for the dispensation of the grace and giftes of God which as euery one hath receyued of God so of charitie he is bound to imploy the same to the profite
neyther hath priuilege nor authoritie and yet out it commeth by permission at the least to make forsooth a face and showe of somewhat for a time and if after it chaunce to be of some Catholike dasht out of countenaunce then the shame to be no mans but onely Fulkes All which considered I doubted a while whether it were good to returne him an answer or no least peraduenture I should but lease my labour rather to expect yet somewhat longer whether any do answer my Motiues or Demaunds as by aduise out of England I haue nowe more then this tweluemonth wayted therevpon Yet my resolution hath bene séeing that abundans cautio non nocet to put out my hande a litle and take of his vizard that being playnly discouered euery man may beholde and abhorre his foule fauour and beare me witnesse that he had bene better to kéepe in not onely those nine yeres and two yeres but also for euer following rather the ensamples of those other two brethren mentioned in his preface to the Reader of whom the one purposed to haue answered the booke of Purgatory himself but afterward vndertooke rather the printing of Fulkes answere the other learnedly began the answering of it but was he knoweth not how letted from the accomplishing of the same So hath Satan hitherto hindred the setting abrode of this answere sayth he of his owne but God hath now at length brought it forth I doubt not he addeth but to his glory and the confusion of satan in his members the Papistes As I also doubt not but God in déede hath brought it forth to his glory and to the confusion of heresie so that satan had done more politikely to haue hindred still if he could the setting abrode of it such stuffe it conteineth Better stuffe we should haue had if better had they had Well séeing that M.D. Allen is otherwise and better occupied I who haue already succéeded him in his Articles and do owe vnto him at one worde all duetie both for the publike and namely for my priuate will here with the helpe of God laye so much of Fulks wares open out of both his bookes that although my meaning is directly against his first booke yet my treatise shall appeare to be a iust reply to both his bookes First therefore I will shew briefly how he confesseth that out of the true Church is no saluation See the contentes more at large in the ende of this booke to this ende that when as in my processe it shall be manifest that he and his felowes are out of the true Church and that we haue the true Church both they may clearely sée in what case they stand and their felowes may looke in time vnto their reconciliation Secondly I will shewe somewhat more at large for what space he graunteth the true Church to haue continued in sight and knowledge of the world and what persons and companies to haue bene of it to the ende that neither he nor no man else being able to proue that we agrée not with those times and persons in substance of religion or haue gone out of the vnitie of their communion it may euidently be séene that we likewise at this time be of the same true Church and he with his fellowes to be without the true Church because they be out of our Church Thirdly for as much as on the other side he could not denie but that he and his agrée not with the saide true Church I will shew how he is fayne to holde that the true Church may erre and that he chargeth it then with the same errours with the which he chargeth vs now to the end that thou mayst sée that for all those surmised errours he hath not any iust cause to denie vs the true Church which he giueth to them that with vs were in the same errours Nay I will further declare in the fourth place that he chargeth them with diuers errors wherewith he neither can nor doth charge vs that it may much more appeare that we haue the true Church nowe if they so much worse then we had the true Church then Fiftly I wil report the reason for which by his saying they had the true Church then notwithstanding their errors to the end that where thou shalt sée it to be such a reason as agréeth to vs nowe as well thou mayst perceyue that he must no lesse graunt vs the true Church now After this I will note briefly his zeal towards Caluin and others that in déede are or at least be vnfaignedly thought of him to be of his Church at this time how that he can not in any wise beare any thing to be spoken agaynst them whereas yet he not onely can beare but also him selfe speaketh so much agaynst the olde auncient Church and the members thereof And in consideration hereof my Catholike zeale must do no lesse as béeing in déede with all other Catholikes of this time a member of the very same auncient Church in olde time but answere for the said Church shewing in euery particuler how vnworthily and vniustly he chargeth it with erring Which I will in like maner do for the Church also of later times defending it likewise against all his like accusations of it Seuenthly I will declare howe that séeing manifestly the true Church Councels Fathers and all other euidences of Christian Religion to make cléerely against him and his he is faine and nothing abasht at the matter to take exception against all by the bare name and colour of Onely Scripture and therein behaueth him selfe so boldly as if the holy Scripture were as manifestly with him as all the other are manifestly against him Where also because like an other Phormio homo confidens he prouoketh vs to a disputation of Scripture I will make him a reasonable offer Eightly I will most cléerely shew how that not withstanding all these great crakes and bolde facinges of his he hath not for all that in these two bookes alleaged so much as one text of Scripture that maketh any whit against vs. And to that purpose I will aunswer all his allegations first concerning Onely Scripture to be credited next concerning the Church whether it can erre and whether we haue it or they then concerning Purgatory and last of all concerning all other matters that any where he mentioneth by the way Ninthly I will likewise shew whereas he maketh himselfe so sure of Scripture that he holdeth the testimonies of Councels and Fathers to be no confirmation of trueth and alleageth them sometimes notwithstanding although because of his so holding I might neglect those allegations yet I will shewe I say that of all which he alleageth no one neither expoundeth any Scripture nor beareth any other testimonie with him against vs. Which wil be a plaine demonstration of that which I proposed here aboue in the second Chapter to wit that wée haue still the true Church because we still so throughly and entirely agrée
praye you syr is all Montanisme that Tertullian hath in his Booke De anima and in so many other Bookes which he wrote beyng a Montanist then what article of our Créede almost is not Montanisme Euen in those fewe lynes that you cite he hath Immortalitie of the soule Resurrection of the flesh and that which is his scope in the same place to wit for you séeme not to vnderstande it the soules suffering in her betweene this and the Resurrection If otherwise therefore some be trueth though some other bée Montanisme what shoulde you haue done but to looke in Epiphanius in Augustine and such others what were the heresies of Montanus and not finding prayer for the dead amongst them to haue refrained your rashnes You knew this well inough therfore notwithstanding your bragges to proue it c. you confesse that it is but your owne lyght suspicion Pur. 417. saying And therfore it is not otherwise to be thought but that the Montanistes added to the abuse in the Church afore also prayers for the spirites of them that were dead wherof Tertullian maketh mētion in his bookes De Castitate De Monogamia which were both written to heretikes of his secte and by those prayers laboureth to proue his Montanisme to wit that Second mariages are not lawfull And againe And therefore it may well be Pur. 263. that all that Tertullian speaketh of prayers and oblations for the dead was onely in the conuenticles of the Montanistes All in Tert. is Montanisme that Cypr. doth not mention And this coniecture you say seemeth the more probable not because it is by any imputed to Montanus but because Cyprian which was afterward a Catholike Byshop in the same Citie where Tertullian some time had lyued maketh no mention of prayers for the deade A goodly cause and yet in déede Cyprian maketh such mention thereof as D. Allen alleageth him Pur. 239. Infra pag. that your selfe doe say there This place of Cyprian hath more collour but yet not so cleare for Purgatorie as M. Allen would seeme to make it And when you haue all done you sticke fast in the lyme But this by the waye Againe you vtter your suspition Pur. 419. saying Finally it appeareth that the faithfull in Tertullians time c. allowed no Prayers for the dead And yet of this least for lacke of courage so great a verse shoulde geue vs so much as a fillip though you haue bene so vncertaine in your premisses you must néedes be certaine in your conclusion notwithstanding and say to vs Therefore Aerius was not the first that helde our opinion although Epiphanius and Augustine say it neuer so muche but Montanus before him was the first that helde your opinion throughly against the Catholikes of his time Oblations for the dead And so much of prayers for the dead But because Aerius denied not onely the profite of them but also of oblations for the dead and was no lesse for that also condemned of the Church you must take paynes to quit him of that heresie likewise and to charge the Church rather that condemned him yea the Church long before he was borne Thus then you say speaking of the times of Tertullian Montanus before him Pur. 417.418.419 The Church then had oblations for the dead by peruerse emulation of the Gentils and yet they were but oblations of thanks giuing You go about to proue it a litle after saying And that the practise of the Churche for oblations for the dead at the yerely day of their death were taken from the Gentiles it appeareth by this that Tertullian counteth them of all one origen to witte of the Apostles tradition with the oblations pro Natalitijs that is for the birth days And if this be not inough Beatus Rhemanus you say a Papist and a great antiquary doth confesse it affirming that by the Canons of the Nicene Councell and other Councels whiche he hath seene in Libraries those oblations pro Natalitijs with other superstitions that Tertullian fathereth vpon tradition of the Apostles were abrogated After this you be bolde to crowe agaynst those auncient times and to say amongst many other corruptions which they tooke of the Gentiles and Heretikes So they tooke oblations for the dayes of death and birth of the Gentiles He is a poore antiquarie which knoweth not what Natalitia were in olde time and still are to wit the dayes of Martyrs Natalitia so called because they were then after many sore pangs deliuered out of their mother the militant Churches wombe and borne vnto the life ioy of the world to come Which mother of theirs and ours vsed therfore alwayes and stil vseth Ioan. 6. for ioy that a man is borne to heauen to offer from yere to yere vpon the dayes of their Martyrdome the oblation or sacrifice of the Altar For any other of her children she offereth also the same oblation vpon the day of his death and so forth vpon his yeres Mindeday yere by yere but not with such ioy but rather mourning with them and for them to get them comfort knowing that though they also be borne into the worlde to come yet it may be crying for a time as all children into this world and not laughing by and by as the glorious Martyrs And these two sortes are the oblations that Tertullian speaketh of saying Oblationes pro defunctis pro natalitijs Tertul. de Coro mil. Cypr. Epi. 37.34 anima die facimus We make oblations for the dead and for the byrthes of Martyrs vpon their yeres day S. Cyprian likewise We celebrate the passions and dayes of Martyrs with an yerely commemoracion We celebrate oblations and sacrifices for their commemorations And in See Molanus de Martyrolog◠ca. xv after Martyrol vsuardi Aug. in ps 118. in res all Martyrologies you may sée them called Natalitia or Natales S. Paulinus hath left verses that he wrote ten yeres together vpon the Natalis of S. Felix S. Augustine shewing that the olde persecutors could not hurt the Church but rather that they did much good agaynst their willes amongst other vtilities as that the whole earth is clad in purple by the bloud of Martyrs Heauen is all in flowers by the garlandes of Martyrs Churches are decked with the Relikes of Martyrs Often cures are done by the merites of Martyrs hath also to our purpose and saith Insignita sunt tempora Natalitijs Martyrum Times are notably marked with the birthdayes of Martyrs Orig. li. 3. in Iob. Finally Origen saith expresly the place is often alleaged by your selfe Nos itaque non natiuitatis c. We do not celebrate the day of birth into this world considering that it is the entrie into dolours and temptations but we celebrate the day of death as being the laying off of all dolours and profligation of all temptations Pamel in Cyp. ep 34 And therefore it litle forceth what your
any one error of theirs they are of your side The Luciferians and the Donatistes had for them the error of S. Cyprian and of his Councell in Afrike and therewith they vrged the Catholikes very sore as we sée in S. Hierome and in S. Augustine But the Protestantes I say haue not so much as any error of any father to vrge vs withall And to charge the Churche with the errors of those Fathers as you doe What a thing againe is that as if you would charge Pope Stephanus and the other Catholikes that erred not with the foresaid error of S. Cyprian For so you charge the Churche in the times of Papias Iustinus Martyr and Ireneus with their errors to shew that it decayed at least immediately after the Apostles time But at leastwise you will say some Fathers haue erred in some thing and therefore it is true that the Fathers may erre Why syrs Do we attribute infallibilitie to euery father Deceaue not the people Puâ— 383.432 make not as though you had infringed the fathers authoritie when you haue shewed that a father hath erred that is not the point betwene vs therein we agrée together But this it is that we charge you with that you resist their full and whole consent For to these we ascribe infallible trueth To the Canonicall Scriptures and tradition of the Apostles without any limitation at all in matters of Religion To the decrées of Peter and his Chaire because it is the rocke of the Church and to the whole Church and therefore againe to the Consent of the Fathers and to Generall Councells confirmed by Peters Successor because these two imploy the whole Churche Yea also to Prouinciall Councells confirmed by the same Chaire And therfore any one of these wée saye can not be against any other of these no more then Canonicall Scripture can be against Canonical Scripture And therfore againe if against these or any one of these there be as it may be any Doctor or Doctors any prouinciall Councell or any Generall Councell it is therein with vs of no authoritie as you sée in Sainct Cyprian and his Councell of Afrike But yet so long as the matter is not plainely against these the particular Doctors and Councell are with vs of great authoritie though some more then some according to the persons number question and other circumstaunces And herevpon it is that we are not hastie as you are to charge them with errors when they did not erre nor also to reueale and to amplifie their errors when they dyd erre but rather when you reueale them and amplifie them to couer them and make the least of them Iren. li. 2. cap. 39.40 so farre as trueth will permitte vs. Nowe the trueth is that séeyng the Gnostici saide that Christ beganne to preache in the beginnyng of his thirtieth yeare and preached but one yeare and then suffered in the twelfth moneth of the same yeare being so of the age of thirtie yeares to signifye their thirtie Aeones Ireneus had occasion hereby to racke the age of Christ not onely aboue thirtie yeares but also towarde .50 yeares beyng able as he thought to yelde a good reason agaynst their fabulous reason why Christ would bée so olde which was to bée an infante with infantes and so forthe tyll he were at length also an olde man with olde men as the sanctification and example of all ages specially because he thought he had both the Ioan. 8 Gospell and also tradition of his side hauing heard of Sainct Iohns Schollers in Asia that seniorem aetatem habens dominus noster docebat Our Lorde was of olde age when he Preached and thinking by olde age they must haue ment aboue .40 towardes .50 howbeit the matter of it selfe is not great and then also it was muche lesse Againe the Gnostici reiected the God Creator withall his creation Iren. li. â—… in fine as another God from God the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christ Therefore was Ireneus glad if he could shew that Christ not onely tooke his owne flesh and made his owne Sacramentes of the Creators Creatures and raised from death his saide owne fleshe and so will raise our fleshe likewise but also that he will after our Resurrection dwel here in the Creators earth with vs for a thousand yeares Apoc. 2â—… so well he lyketh the Creator and his Creatures speciallye because he thought the Apocalypse of Sainct Iohn to bée on hys syde herein and had in déede on his syde Papias who either was scholler to Sainct Iohn or rather scholler to his schollers Euseb li. 3. ca. v but homo ingenij pertenuis a man of a verye slender witte as it is easie to gather of hys writinges sayth Eusebeus and therfore not altogether suche a one as Sainct Paule required 2. Tim. â—… speaking of the schollers of his scholler Timothie qui idonei erunt c. such as shall be meete to teach others also because him selfe was not sufficient to vnderstand Apostolicas interpretationes c. The Apostles expositions being made in mysticall fygures and darke parables Howbeit the matter was not then so great vntill b Eus liâ—… 7. ca. 19 Au. de 〈…〉 li. 20. caâ—… 〈…〉 See Bib … cta Sixt Se. li. 5. not 233 afterwarde the Churche condemned peraduenture that opinion in the Heretikes called Chiliastae or Millenarij who according to d Au. 〈…〉 Cerinthus the Heretike in the Apostles tyme encreased the error with b Eus 〈◊〉 7. ca. 19 Au. de 〈◊〉 li. 20. ca◠〈◊〉 See Bib … cta Sixt Se. li. 5. not 233 intollerable augmentations of belly cheare and fleshely lust whiche they expected in those thousande yeares as the Turkes and Iewes doe Dionysius Alexandrinus wrote agaynst Nepos for it as f Eus sâ—… Hic C … in Dio … Alex. 〈◊〉 per Esa 18. in p … Iusti iâ—… pol. ad natum Eusebius hath recorded and also Sainct Hierome De viris illust And therefore it séemeth some wordes to bée lacking in another place of his where nowe wée reade as though it was Ireneus agaynst whom Dionysius wrote No more was it at that tyme a great matter for g Iustinus Martyr to be ouerséene in the sinne of the Angels both because his whole drift there is notwithstanding this by word very true that one God made all but some of his Angels did fall from him vsurpe a tyrannie ouer men till Christ came to deliuer vs and therfore the same wicked Angels do stirre vp their Gentiles now against the Christians being men most innocent and the faithfull seruauntes of the true God And also because that place Gen. 6. is the first place in the Scripture where expresse mention is made of the Angels and of their sinne for that place Gene. 3. The serpent was craftier then any beast of the earth how parabalicall it is but Gen. 6. the Septuaginta in their authenticall translation had then as S. Augustine witnesseth
to our purpose at length he saith that the Catholikes must vnderstande that all seruice of any honor and sacrifice is giuen of the Catholike Church together both to the Father and to the Sonne and to the holy Ghost that is to the holy Trinitie For though he that offereth directeth the prayer to the person of the Father this is not any preiudice to the Sonne or to the holy Ghost He declareth it thus because The conclusion of the same prayer for so muche as it hath the name of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost sheweth that there is no difference in the Trinitie Looke in the Canon of the Masse and you shall more easily perceiue his meaning The prayer there beginneth thus being directed to the Father Te igitur clementissime pater c. Therefore ô most mercifull Father with humble supplication we beseech thee for Iesus Christ his sake thy sonne our Lorde c. And it is in the ende concluded thus Per ipsum cum ipso in ipso c. By him and with him and in him is to thee God the Father in the vnitie of the holy Ghost all honor and glory world without ende Amen Wherevpon also among his instructions to his friend Petrus Diaconus which you alleage vnder the name of S. Augustine here cap. 10. dem 24. Fulg. alia◠Aug. de fi◠de ad Pet. Diac. ca. 19 béeing too light in very diuerse companies in his pilgrimage to Hierusalem he sayth Holde most firmely and in no wise doubt but to the Sonne with the Father and the holy Ghost they did sacrifice those beastes in the time of the olde Testament And to him nowe in the newe Testament with the Father and the holy Ghost cum quibus illi est vna diuinitas he hauing one Godhead with them the H. Churche Catholike ouer all the worlde ceasseth not to offer in fayth and charitie the sacrifice of bread and wine c. Therefore you might as well haue charged Christ him selfe for directing so likewise the prayer that he taught vs Our father c. v. Of ministring the blessed Sacrament to Infantes But the other error is he saith a notable error and suche a practise as euen the Papistes them selues will confesse to be erroneous This it was S. Augustine and Pope Innocentius and al the Catholike Fathers of that time and all the Westerne Church yea all the Church excepting none but only the Pelagians ministred the Sacrament of Christes body and bloud to Infantes yea and thought it as necessarie for them as Baptisme to wit that they must receiue it or els they should be damned And will not D. Allen deny this will the Papistes them selues confesse it for so you say boldly but in your boldnesse you open withall your wilfull ignorance Fulke neuer read the Councel of Trent Who would thinke it if your selfe did not by this confesse it that you neuer read the Councell of Trent And what a presumption is this for you to preach yea and to write against the doctrine of the Catholike Church nothing regarding eyther what it is or how it is explicated defended defined by occasion of your heresies of the Catholike Bishops in their Generall Councell As if an Arrian doctor should neuer haue séene the Councel of Nice Well our countrey men may perceiue by this what blind guides they haue of you Reade the Councel of Trent I exhort both you and all other that can specially that halfe of it which is of doctrine and you wil either imbrace it as it is most worthy and as I pray God to giue you the grace or at leastwise you shall better know therby what it is that you must confute where now most of you do commonly fight only with your owne shadowes either of ignorance or which is worse of wilfulnes not knowing what in déede we teache There to our present purpose you shall find the said Councel after that it hath said Trid. Con. Se. 21. ca. 4. That Infantes lacking the vse of reason are by no necessitie bound to the sacramentall receiuing of the Eucharist to declare moreouer and say Neque ideo damnanda est antiquitas c. Neither for all that is antiquitie to be condemned if it practised that maner sometime in some places For as those most holy Fathers had pro illius temporis ratione answerable to that time sui facti probabilem causam a reasonable cause of their so doing so verily that they did it not for any necessitie to saluation without controuersie it must be beleeued This declaration of the Councell may satisfie not onely all Catholikes to whom it is the declaration of the Holy Ghost him selfe but also any other reasonable man to whom it can not possibly be lesse then the declaration of many most learned and most discrete men which knew well what they said and that they could not be therin disproued In so much that Kemnitius the Lutheran Protestant not so much as once toucheth the Councell for this though he write of purpose against the Councell Yet for more satisfaction of all men I say further to open the case particularly The heresie of the Pelagians was that Man or Fréewill of man is still notwithstanding the fall of Adam See A◠ad quo haer 88 lagian◠sufficient of his owne naturall strength without Christ or the grace of Christe to saluation And so consequently they saide children to be borne in innocencie and not in sinne The Catholikes to proue the contrarie of children alleaged the necessitie of their Baptisme confirming it by that Scripture Except one be regenerate of water non potest introire in Regnum Dei he can not enter into the kingdome of God Ioan. 3 The Pelagians séeing so plaine a text confessed they Originall sinne No hereticall pertinacie would not let them but a straunge shifte they had They graunted vpon this text that children vnbaptized should not in déede come into the kingdome of God for lacke of Baptisme but yet for their naturall innocencie without Christ they should haue life euerlasting in a certaine other place out of the kingdome of God The Catholikes replyed against that vaine shift and alleaged this text Ioan. 6 Except ye eate the fleshe of the Sonne of man and drinke his bloud non habebitis vitam in vobis you shall not haue life in you Who now would accuse those Fathers of error Yea who would not admire in them such readines to replye so properly to the purpose or let any man stand vp and say that the Pelagians are not by this confuted and their children excluded as before from the kingdome of God so now also from life and so left in death and therefore in sinne and therefore againe not innocent and all this for lacke of the Grace of Christ in Baptisme But now putting the case that a childe were baptized and then immediately died before he receiued sacramentally the Eucharist who reading innumerable places
of those fathers concerning the force of Baptisme séeth not that they geue to such a childe remission of sinnes and therefore also liuerie from death therefore againe life euerlasting the kingdome of God Or let any man bring me one place of those Doctors speaking to this case of a child I say baptized but not communicated holding the contrarie For betwéen them the Pelagians that was not the case nor the question as I haue shewed but they brought in the Eucharist onely to proue that Baptisme is necessarie to the euerlasting life of children All which by this one place of S. Augustines will be euident euen for your owne purpose also it is plainer then the two places that your selfe alleage Augu. De pec mer. rem li. 1. ca. 20. If a child saith Augustine hauing receaued baptisme depart out of this life soluto reatu cui originaliter erat obnaxius c. Seeing the guilt is loosed to the which he was bond by birth he shal be perfite in that light which with the presence of the Creator doth lighten such as are iustified Peccata enim sola separant inter Deū homines for nothing but sinnes maketh separation betwene God and men and sinnes are loosed by the grace of Christ Then a litle after of the Pelagiās he saith They would geue to children vnbaptised saluation and life euerlasting for cause of their innocencie but shutte them from the kingdome of heauen because they are not Baptized For they haue forsooth a starting a lurking hole because our Lord said not If one be not regenerate of water and the spirit non habebit vitam he shall not haue life but he said non intrabit in Regnum Dei he shall not enter into the kingdome of God Nam si illud dixisset for if he had said that quoth they it had bene so playne that no doubt could haue risen therof How then doth S. Augustine ioyne issue with them herevpon Auferatur ergo iam dubitatio c. Say you so Now then away with doubting let vs heare our Lord not the suspitions coniectures of mortal men Why haue you a plaine word of our Lordes owne mouth for the necessitie of Baptisme also to life euerlasting Dominū audiamus inquam non quidem hoc de Sacramento lanacri dicentem Let vs heare our Lorde I say I graunt he speaketh it not of the Sacracrament of Baptisme sed de Sacramento sanctae c. but of the Sacrament of his holy table quo nemo rite nisi c. And yet neuerthelesse it serueth well to our question of Baptisme because no man commeth lawfully to that table vnlesse he be Baptized Then he bringeth forth the place Except yee eate c. you shall not haue life in you And so he triumpheth saying What seeke we further what can they answere to this if they will not be obstinate By and by he declareth though it were said of baptisme Qui non renatus fuerit He that is not regenerate and here it is not saide likewise He that doth not eate but If you doe not eate as though he spoke to men of vnderstandyng and not to Infantes yet that this place must needes pertaine also to Infantes And so it is euident that although he vnderstande the place of the Sacrament and of Infantes yet he bringeth it not to proue the necessitie of that Sacrament to Infantes but the necessitie of Baptisme to Infantes Marie perceiuing that he might be mistaken of his Reader he doth commonly though it néeded not against the Pelagians insinuate most vigilantly by the waye that in Baptisme it selfe they receyue also the other Sacrament not sacramentally but spiritually that is Augu◠pec m◠3. cap. the effect of the other Sacrament Quoniam nihil agitur aliud cum paruuli baptizantur nisi vt incorporentur Ecclesiae id est Christi Corpori membrisue socientur Because when Infantes are Baptized it is for no other cause but that they maye bee incorporated to the Churche that is to saye ioyned to the bodye and members of Christ See D◠len d◠cha ◠31. pa◠It is so therefore with children by Baptisme as it is with older people by an earnest desyre to the Eucharist for as these haue Votum explicitum an expresse desyre to it so they haue Votum implicitum a close desyre to it and that serueth them both to obtayne the effecte thereof though not in so great measure as if they receyued it also sacramently Neuerthelesse there may be iust causes to keepe it from children generally as there are iuste causes to keepe it sometyme yea at Easter also from some of the older sorte But if antiquitie dyd not counte it necessarye for chyldren at least wyse they gaue it you wyll saye to children and that is contrary to Probet semet ipsum homo 1. Co◠let a man examyne hym selfe before he receyue it Why syr is there anye feare least chyldren that are Baptized come to it vnworthyly that is beyng in mortall synne hath any adultus by penance a better warrant to presume vnto it then a childe by Baptisme Knowe you not howe S. Augustine and the whole Church holdeth that in Baptisme a childe repenteth and beléeueth by others euē so he there also examineth himselfe by others As other repenting and other beléeuing so likewise other examining is not necessarie for a child though for so great a sacrament it be more conuenient And so both the Churche now doth well not to Communicate children they also afore did not ill who did Communicate them who yet were not so many as Fulke doth make them We heard erewhile what the Tridentine Fathers said Falsification by adding Aliquando in quibusdam locis that maner was sometime in some places The third part Concerning the errors that he laieth to the Church of later times and not of old And thus much of the second sorte of errors laid by you to the auncient true Church and not also to the Churche of these later times which you take not to be the true Church Now therefore as it followeth let vs heare and examine the third last sorte of errors such as you lay to this Church of later times and not also to the primitiue Church as you call it meaning the first .600 yeares Which errors wil be so few so light in respect of those which he hath already charged the true Church withall specialy when they are duely scanned Note you that vvould the true Church that it may be both a sure confirmation to the Catholikes and a iust motiue to all others to embrace the Church of this time no lesse then of olde time considering that it is no lesse yea much more vnreproueable of the aduersarie as in déede also of good reason it must so be because more time hath geuen to the Holy Ghost and stil doth geue more occasions to define and declare many pointes that were
we may note the cause that moueth him to say that our Churche refuseth the Scriptures as if he should say that we refuse faith because we refuse only faith or that any man refuseth his owne best euidence because he will not at the instance of his aduersarie renounce all his other euidences be they neuer so many neuer so good neuer so well tried and so much vsed by his auncetors also most agreable euery one of them to his foresaid best euidence Ar. 85. He saith moreouer She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of Gods word which submitteth the same to her owne iudgemēt Ar. 107. Againe The Popish Church so manifestly dissenteth from the word of truth that she dare not be iudged thereby but most blasphemously submitteth the same to her owne iudgement Againe In the Popish Church Gods word is made subiect to mens determinations and authorities And againe Pur. 219. By which it is manifest that you do reiect the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures when you affirme that no booke of holy Scripture is Canonicall but so farre foorth as your Church will allowe it Moreouer when you will not admit any sense of the Scripture but such as your Church will allow Here are two other causes of the same againe As if he would say that the Apostles in their time or the Church then Note vvhiche is this Popishe Church submitted and made subiect the Scriptures to men most blasphemously and onely of their owne will 2. Pet. 3. because they tooke vpon them to iudge of the true sense and namely S. Peter for saying that the vnlearned him selfe being but a fisherman and the vnstable do misconster S. Paules Epistles sicut caeteras Scripturas as also the other Scriptures to their owne damnation And againe as though the same Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiected the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures Canonicall did al only of their owne will because they made a Canon or Canons as all the lawes of the Church are called Canons wherof the saide Scriptures were and are called Canonicall whervpon himselfe also counteth them as confirmed by the holy Ghost Well for these goodly causes he is bold to say that the Church of which Christ said generally If he will not heare the Church Mat. 18. count him for an heathen and a publican refuseth and reiecteth the Scriptures And againe to D. Allen Pur. 438. As for the euident word of God you shame not to boast of that to be your triall which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of it in any lawfull conference or disputation Your great belwethers and bishops declared before the whole world in the conferēce of Westminster what they durst abide when they came to handstrokes It is a gay matter for such a chattering Pye as you are to make a fond florish a farre off in words to please your patrons and exhibitioners it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede And againe to him Pur. 346. Where as you wish that Bedes historie were made familiar vnto all English men they were better to consider the word of God and the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Which if you durst abide the triall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latin And if you were as zelous to set forth the glory of God as you are to mainteine your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so long found fault with our translations of the Scriptures would haue taken paynes to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke You say the disputation at Westminster Anno 1. Elizab. was before the whole world as one that care not what you say which you declare again in speaking of D. Allens exhibitioners and his pleasing of them a thing wherof you know nothing nor as I think no body els vnles some body may know that which is not He is rather him selfe the Exhibitioner of our whole countrey like an other Ioseph and might be yours also if you were happy How much more iustly then may we say that the Councell of Trent was holden before the whole world And what conference will you admitte for lawfull on our part when as you refused to come to that assembly at Trent béeing yet so earnestly so safely and so honorably inuited thither as the Safeconduites extant in the Actes of the Councell do witnesse together with the very experience also of those fewe petites of Germanie that came thither Or what conference shall on your parte be thought iniquous and vniust towardes vs when you shame not to extoll that mocke conference of Westminster A fourefolde offer Well because you chalenge vs to a disputation and are suffered to set it forth in print heare what I will say vnto you The Councell of Trent counted you their subiectes as muche as you counte vs the subiectes of Englande and the state there is of all Catholike Princes graunted to be farre preeminent Do you therefore procure vs a safeconduite from the Courte in suche fourme as the Councell gaue it to you and certayne of vs will in the name of God come in be the daunger to our liues otherwise neuer so great and for the glory of God in the victorie of his trueth we will ioyne with you in any conference that shall be prescribed according to the common lawes of a Conference Sée in my .xix. Demaunde which is of Kinges what I said to this effect before I knew of this your chalenge Sée likewise of the same in my first Demaund which is of olde Conference at Carthage betwixte the Catholikes and the Donatistes about the true Churche which the Scriptures commende vnto vs Whereof I shall haue occasion to say more in the tenth Chapter If to reiect this offer the Gouernours by your procurement or of their owne mindes will stand vpon their poyntes wheras we séeing the cause is Gods cause are content not to stand vpon our liues to saue your soules and to redéeme the vnmercifull vexation and intollerable persecution of our brethren ouer all that Realme whom your Bishops and other Commissioners do oppose with heauy yrons and bouchers axes sorer then you can oppose vs or the learned of them with Scriptures Do you syr at the least wise for your owne credits sake take your pen in hand and ioyne with me vpon that same Collatio Carthaginensis in such maner as I haue briefly required in my said first Demaund Or if you dare not do that neither for al your crakes thirdly I require you to send to vs some of your fellows or schollers such as will behaue them selues quietly and modestly other safeconduite they shall not néede as diuers of your side haue already at sundry times partely of their owne heades partely at their priuate friendes motion come hither and founde all safe
the Doâ—stes is Vbi sit ecclesia where the Church is whether with vs or with them What shall we do then shall we seeke her in verbis nostris in our owne wordes or in the wordes of her head our Lorde Iesus Christ I thinke we ought rather to seeke her in his wordes who is trueth and beste knoweth his owne body Where by our owne wordes you vnderstande all besides Onely Scripture But S. Augustine doth not so quicquid nobis inuicem obricimus verba nostra sunt Our wordes are whatsoeuer we obiect one to another of deliuering the diuine bookes in Dioclesians time of burning frankinsence to the Idols of persecuting As all your declayming also at this time against vs is for certayne crimes of certayne men We hauing the like yea and them more haynous and that more truely to charge you withall But these words S. Augustine will and we with him to be silent when the Church is sought and the words of Christ in the Scripture to sound Againe you alleage him Epist 48. ad Vincentium RogatistaÌ„ where he â—aith We are sure that no man could iustly separat him selfe as Luther did a communione omnium gentium from the communion of all nations because none of vs seeketh the Churche in his owne righteousnesse but in the holy Scriptures Wherevnto you adde your fiue â—gges saying So if the Papistes would not presume of their owne righteousnesse but seeke â—he Churche of Christe in the Scriptures they would not sepaâ—ate them selues from the communion of Christes Church now â—y Gods grace inlarged further then the Popish Church There 〈◊〉 no crooked gambrell bow that casteth so wide as you do the â—octors wordes these specially from their scope I maruell â—uche at you for it and muche more if you sawe the place By 〈◊〉 Communion of all Nations so often agaynst the Donaâ—es Saint Augustine meaneth the Societie of that visible â—urch which as it beganne visibly at Hierusalem so visibly grewe on afterwardes and groweth on to this day and to the worldes ende ouer all nations From whiche Societie or Companie Epist 48. fieri non potest it is impossible saith he that any can haue iuste cause to separate their companie Because the Donatistes saide that Cecilianus the Catholike Bishop of Carthage had yéelded in Dioclesians persecution and that all the other Catholikes by communicating with him after that whereas they should haue excommunicated him for euer were also defiled thereby and therefore that them selues who had not yéelded did well to separate them selues from the Catholikes as the iust from the vniust Therevpon Saint Augustine saith notably Iust separation impossible If any may haue a iust cause to separate their companie from the companie of all Nations and to call that Ecclesiam Christi the Church of Christ Vnde scitis How know you in all Christendome beeing so wide and side lest perhaps before you did separate your selues some did afore separate them selues for some iust cause in some so farre countreys that the bruite of their iustice is not come to you How can the Church béeing but one be in you rather then in them who before perhaps haue separated them selues Ita fit c. So it remayneth that seeing you know not this same you be vncertayne of your selues Which likewise must needes happen to all others who vse for their Societie the testimonie not of God but of them selues that is of their owne iustice And then a litle after Nos autem ideo certi sumus But we Catholikes are certayne that none can haue iustly separated himself from the companie of all Nations quia non quisque nostram in iustitia sua because any of vs doth not in his owne iustice but in the diuine Scriptures seeke for the Church Et vt promissa est reddi conspicit and seeth it to be represented euen as it was promised to wit from Hierusalem to Rome from the Iewes ouer all nations being mixt both of good and bad and the good not consenting no whit defiled by the companie of the bad And therefore whether any of our Popes any of our other Bishops any of our other fathers any of our Catholike brethren haue bene so yll as the Protestants make them or no sure we are that Luther possibly could not as neither euer any could or can iustly separate him selfe because by the holy most euident Scriptures that only is the true church which beginning at IerusaleÌ„ groweth ouer all Nations in which by the same Scriptures we sée that once the Romanes were and from which the said Romanes did neuer separate theÌ„ selues afterward and with which Romanes Luther first was and afterwardes did Separate himselfe from them and so therfore from the true Church And yet come you like a blinde beetle and say that the Papistes did Separate them selues from your Church bragging as blindely of your inlarging For once hauing made a separation it is no inlarging afterwardes that can winne you the true Church from them that had it afore Of whose largenes yet also aboue your largenes read my 9.31.32.33.47 Demaundes and ioyne with me if you list vpon them Your third parte out of Augustine is more generall to wit about all questions with any Heretikes whatsoeuer thereof you say Ar. 13. that he would haue heresies confuted only by Scriptures For writing against Maximinus the Arian li. 3. ca. 14. a place commonly and often cited he saith Sed nunc nec ego Nicenum c. Of which place your gathering is this If Augustine would not oppresse the Arians by the authoritie of the Nicene Councell which was the first and the best generall Councell that euer was but only by the Scriptures how much lesse would he charge them with other authorities that the Papistes alleage beside the authoritie of holy Scriptures It is for your owne vantage or els you would not so play the proctor for Heretikes S. Augustine would not oppresse the Arians nor would not charge them but onely with Scripture you say But doth he say that he might not for there is the question You know I doubt not how commonly he presseth the Donatistes with the authoritie of the sayd Nicen Councell Aug. con Ep. parm li. 2. ca. 8. De bap coÌ„ Don. l. 1. c. 7 graunting that in S. Cyprians time it was a doubtfull thing whether Heretikes can baptize But nullo iam quaestio est now it is out of all doubt because in that same Councell it had bene discussed considered ended and ratified And euen so in your owne place a litle before hauing proued inuincibly by the Scriptures that the Father the Sonne are vnius eiusdemue substaÌ„tiae of one and the same substance he sayth immediatly This is that Homousion which against the Arrian heretikes was in the Nicene Councell ratified of the Catholike fathers veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate not onely by authoritie of truth as your selfe do graunt but also by truth of authoritie
Protestantes side and iustification of our side so that whosoeuer will be saued must neither beleue them nor communicate with them as being Heretikes and Schismatikes but must be of our beliefe in all thinges and of our Communion as who haue both the trueth and the Church of Christ euen the same that our Auncetors to wit the Apostles and their Successors after them had in their seuerall times Which also was the totall summe of M.D. Allens Articles first and after them both of my Motiues Demaundes Neuerthelesse I haue thought good for the more manifest clering of all to haue this chapter aparte and folowing the order of my Demaundes one by one which if Fulke had done he had saued me some labour to sifte all in substance and effect that he hath said to D. Allens Articles in the former of his two bookes answering withall these few Scriptures and Doctors of his which in the two last Chapters I pretermitted and reserued to this place By this the Reader shall sée euidently the force of ech one Demaund how much more of all to heare the Protestantes quite downe considering that all is nothing which this felow in both his bookes could either answere vnto them or obiecte against them Specially if he will first reade ouer euery Demaund as it lyeth in my booke and then that which here is correspondent vnto it 1. Collatio Carthaginensis touching the Church of the Scriptures FIrst therefore by reason of their triuiall position of Onely Scripture in all questions for the which notwithstāding they haue neither Scripture nor Doctor as I haue sufficiently declared cap. 8 pag. 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. and because the question of the Church is of all other the principall as one which being agréed vpon and so the House of saluation found all brable is at an end also by Fulkes owne confession here cap. j. Whether it can not erre as we say or may erre as they say Herevpon in my very first Demaunde on the one side I aske them as S. Augustine did the Donatistes some euident Scripture for their Church that is to say for Luthers piece or for Caluines piece of Luthers piece on the other side I point them to very many most euident Scriptures for our Church in S. Augustines two books against the Donatistes de Collatione Carthaginensi and de vnitate Ecclesiae that is to say for the Church beginning at Hierusalem Act. 1. like the litle musterdseede Mat. 13. and growing and spreading thence ouer all Nations ouer S. Augustine and his felowes in the Christian Nations of their time and ouer vs and our felowes in the Christian Nations of our time and so forth to the end of the world Now Fulke wheresoeuer he maketh mention of the saide Carthage Conference c. What doth he doth he reply and shew that the same most euident Scriptures make for his Church or that they make not for S. Augustines Church and our Church that is for the visible Church of all Christian Nations yea like a blind buzzard he there ouerthroweth quite his owne Church and plainely confirmeth ours as I haue noted cap. 9. pag. 176. to 183. in the question of Only Scripture vpon the places of S. Augustine which he there alleageth requiring and bringing Scriptures for the Church And as I offer cap. 7. pag. 106. to shew more copiously if he dare ioyne with me vpon this Demaund and stand to S. Augustines Disputation at Carthage c. and to the euident Scriptures there recited as cōcerning this questiō of the Church And as towching certaine darke and obscure Scriptures such as S. Augustine would haue to be set aside in this question the Donatistes in déede alleaged some suche for their Church that is for Donates piece cut of from the Church of all Nations But for Luther or Caluines piece Fulke hath alleaged neither so much as any such Howbeit against our Church he hath aleaged some such But I haue cap. 8. pag. 124. to 133. most cléerely shewed that neither they make any whit at all against our Church as neither certaine expositions of some Fathers cap. 9 pag. 155 and that they make vnauoideably against the Protestantes Being readie to shew the like in those more euident Scriptures also which the Donatistes alleaged against our Church if Fulke list to repeate them and in any other likewise that he can alleage 2. Building of the Church amid persecution In the 2. Demaund I reporte S. Chrysostomes argument which is not his onely yea it is the Scriptures against the Iewes and Paynimes to proue that Christ is God because no Persecution of theirs or any others could or can suppresse Christes Church though in the first beginning of it it were so poore and smal and they so mightie and cruell against it but that it hath and shall continually stand in the sight of the world mauger all the Gates of Hell Now Fulke to this argument hath answered nothing nor to the Doctors and Scriptures that make it The Iewes and Paynimes are not yet so much beholding vnto him Marie an obiectiō against it I graunt may be made of the texte of the Apocalypse here cap. 8. pag. 124. as you alleage it and vnderstand it to wit that the Persecution of Antichrist shall driue the Church into the Wildernes that is you say into a secrete place out of the open sight of the world Fulk a falsarie there to remaine for a long season But I haue there declared manifestly by the text it selfe that both in your alleaging you play the falsarie putting a long season for a very short season and in your vnderstanding a deprauer of Scripture to your owne damnation expounding that which is ment of fleeing in heart to God in time of worldly desolation to be meant of becomming corporally inuisible 3. Going out Motiue 18. Thirdly I demaunde of them to shew when we went out of the foresaid Church of al Christian Nations séeing they denie vs to be still within it As we say and the world seeth and Fulke him selfe confesseth here cap. 7. pag. 103. that they are departed from our Church and goeth about to yéelde a cause for their so doing Whereas by S. Augustine whom him selfe alleageth here cap. 9. pag. 177. as it were agaynst our separating of our selues from them which is one of his grosse contradictions and this also no better Ar. 66. that we Catholikes are departed from the Gretians it is impossible for any to haue a iust cause to Separate them selues from the said Church In so much that no companie can be named from the very beginning of the same Church which so did and obstinately stoode in it as they do but it was Schismaticall Yea and against his imagined Church in the wildernes here cap. 8. pag. 124. we are expresly warned If they saye vnto you Ecce in deserto est Beholde Christ is in the wildernes nolite exire do not goe out Matth.
Heresie but it was so contradicted howsoeuer the Fathers were at the same time otherwise occupied And we shew that these supposed Heresies were not as you blaspheme taken into the Church by emulation of Paganes or Heretikes as here cap. 6. pag. 36. to pag. 56. In how many places doth S. Augustine say that Origens heresie of the Damneds saluation after a while was ioyned with a certaine humane pietie And yet who knoweth not how the Origenistes for all that were most ernestly and continually resisted And the like may be shewed in all the like that as well the Heresies which had a shew of pietie and charitie were faithfully resisted as the others no Heresie at all lacking some shew for the time And howsoeuer now you make a small matter of prayer for the dead Cap. 11. coÌ„tradict â—1 in the next Chapter after your vsuall maner of contradicting your selfe you will make it equall to the greatest most blasphemous against Christ and against God and occasion of most licentious wickednes in all that belieue it c. Besides that the Fathers in déede withstood your friend Aerius who would haue entred with the contrarie and likewise all those other knowen friends of yours the old Heretikes Had they for all their being occupied against those horrible Heresies leasure to withstand trueth and had they not leasure to withstand corruptions of trueth You thinke your folowers very béetles if you hope to blind them with such grosse conueiance But you haue also Scripture forsooth to couer your iuggling Ar. â—8 2. Thes 2. For when the Scripture telleth vs that the Mysterie of iniquitie preparing for the General defection Reuelation of Antichrist wrought euen in S. Paules time it is folly to aske whether sodenly and in one yere and consequently with much preaching against it Ar. 43 all Religion was corrupted Against your blaphemous vnderstanding of this texte as if it said that the Church of Christ wrought the mysterie or preparation of Antichrist I haue replied cap. 8. pag. 121. But now whosoeuer wrought it doth your text say that ther was then no preaching against it No such word Besides what a mad imagination is this of yours that if all Religion had bene corrupted in one yeare then the Pastors would haue cryed out against it but being wrought by litle and litle they either could not espie it or were content to winke at it For who séeth not in the Ecclesiasticall Histories and other monumentes of Antiquitie that they gaue warning vigilantly and faithfully as well against those Heretikes that would haue corrupted but one or a few Articles as against those others that sought to corrupt many or all So haue they done all the time of the mysterie against all the Heresies that from the beginning haue wrought it 1. Ioan. 2. couertly therein seruing Antichrist them selues also therefore termed Antichristes So they do now also being the time of the defection or Apostasie though not Generall S. Paule doth not so call it of which Antichristian Mysterie you Protestants are the workers as I haue declared cap. 8. pag. 124. to .133 And after all the mysterie when his Reuelation coÌ„meth shall that at least passe vncontrolled You according to the blasphemies of your Apostasie do make that Antichrist is long agoe reuealed to the which I haue in the same place answered moste irrefragably by the Scriptures them selues that you abuse But now whensoeuer his Reuelation be doth any text say that there is then no preaching agaynst him Ar. 36. 2. Thes 2. Mat. 24. Apoc. 12. For so you say When the comming of Antichrist was in all power of lying signes and wonders in so muche that if it were possible the very Elect should be deceiued and a generall departing from the fayth was foreshewed and the Church to be driuen into the wildernesse What maruell were it if none of our Church could preach against it as it first entred As though the Scripture were not playne that not onely as he shall enter when the time of his Reuelation commeth but also euen during the whole time of his raigne there shall be open and stoute preaching against him ouer all the worlde with moste mightie working of true Miracles agaynst his lying wonders and moste constant resisting of him to bloud and to death though his tormentes and tormentors be neuer so horrible and Satanicall As I haue partly noted in the same 8. chapter pag. 124. to 130. All this you haue said to defend that our Religion might be false and of a later entraunce Ar. 36. although it were not gaynesaid at the first entring of it As for that which you say of preaching and writing agaynst the Popes authoritie when it first began it is answered aboue cap. 9. pag. 157. Now on the other side that your Religion is not false though it were withstood by the true Pastors in Aerius Iouinianus c. this you say Pur. 413. They that defended that Heretikes should not be baptized were withstood by Cyprian and all the Bishops of Affrica who were in the vnitie of the Church yet were they not heretikes nor their opinion heresie Much forsooth to the purpose Were withstood you should haue added at their first arising and preaching But then you had marred your example your selfe For their opinion did not then first arise but came by lineall tradition from the Apostles And the contrary opinion of Agrippinus and his successor S. Cyprian did then first arise and was withstoode by Pope Stephanus c. who (a) Aug. de bap cont Don. li. 5. ca. 23. wrote and commaunded (b) Vincen. Lirin ca. 9. apud Cyp. epist 74. nihil nouandum nisi quod traditum est to make no innouation but keepe the Tradition And therfore it was an heresie and they that helde it obstinately as afterward the Donatistes and Luciferians were Heretikes and the (c) Eus li. 7. ca. 2.3.4 Niceph l. 6. ca. 7. Hier. coÌ„tra Lucif Bed l. octo quest q. 5. Aug. coÌ„tra Cresc li. 3. ca. 1.2.3 de Bap. li. 2. ca. 4. Ep. 48. Catholiks recanted it both in Africa in Phrygia though S. Cyprian him selfe peraduenture was martyred in the meane time But yet you haue in store one example about this rule to dorre vs withall and to shew that (d) Ar. 93. the Romish Church can well inough abide the true Religion of Christ to be damnably abused by wicked men not only without open or priuie reprehension but also with allowing Which is no worse theÌ„ you hold here of the true auncient Church which you cal your owne But your example out of Matthaeus Paris is cleane agaynst your selfe For it sheweth manifestly that neither those Friars preachers which attributed too much to Religion or life Monasticall nor those Parisian Doctors which detracted too muche from it lacked their reprehenders among the Catholikes as they were all vntill some of the Doctors afterwards proued obstinat heretiks And that
all men know that those also of your owne side in Fraunce Flaunders c. in their publike Edictes call vs Catholikes and them selues by other names Now supposing that it is our name yet you haue a shift saying Ar. 67. that we boast and trust onely in these names Catholike and Church without the thinges them selues as the wicked Iewes did crying The Temple of the Lorde when they had nothing lesse then the Temple of the Lorde Iere. 7. Mat. 21. but rather a denne of theeues Our Lord both in the Prophet and in the Gospell acknowledgeth it to be his Temple although they in it were théeues and wicked persons So is ours his Catholike Church although some of vs were so wicked as you make vs. Howbeit the wicked both then and now trusting onely in the Temple and in the Church and not amending their liues deceiue them selues how much more they that trust in the cōuenticles of Heretikes which are the Synagogues of Satan On the other side supposing that it is not your name you haue also your shift saying Ar. 68. If you haue no greater argument to condemne vs thē that we are not called The Catholike Church then you can no more condemne vs then Christ and his Apostles that were not onely not called the true Church but also were called Heretikes and deceiuers by the Iewes which were as rightly called Gods people as they that giue you the name of Catholike Church are called the Christian world Nay bate me an ace of that I pray you vnlesse you can likewise shew by predictions of the Prophets and correspondence of Luther the reprobation of the Christian world in these dayes as we all sée the reprobation of the people of God the Iewes in those dayes Besides that you haue great reason forsooth to require that the Iewes should haue vsed those names which they neuer heard of or els you not to be tryed now by them after their institution receiuing and vniuersall vsing And yet againe you will néedes haue the name from vs. Ar. 95. For why might not our Church when it was most hidden you say be as rightly called Catholike as the Church of the Apostles when it was so particular that it was conteined in the narrow bondes of Iury For you say it is not called Catholike because it should be euery where for that it neuer was nor neuer shal be But because that wheresoeuer it be in partes it is one body of Christ I reade of many old Heretikes that gaue many interpretations of that name to draw it to them selues but you are the first to my knowledge that said because it is vna therefore it is called Catholica The old fathers in their Créede were of another meaning when they said distinctly I beleue One Holy Catholike and Apostolike that is Romane Church No Sir S. Augustine telleth you another interpretation Aug. de vn Eccl. ca. 2. Ecclesia vtique vna est quam maiores nostri Catholicam nominarunt vt ex ipso nomine ostenderent quia per totum est Secundum totum enim cath olun Grecè dicitur There is no doubt but onely one Church euen that same which our Auncetors named Catholica to declare by the very name it selfe that she is ouer all to wit beginning at Hierusalem and from thence growing ouer all Nations continually till the ende of the world when hauing taken in the fulnesse of Nations she shall be wholly assumpted in glorie And therefore your Church neither when it was hidden as you imagine neither now that it is open as we all sée God hide it againe can be called Catholike Au. Callat 3. diei nu 2. post Collat c. 27.28 Epist 48. because as S. Augustine so often resoneth against the Donatistes you do not communicate with totius Orbis Ecclesia the Church of the whole world but haue seperated your selues from it from the Church I say which beganne in Iurie and groweth on to this day and therefore as well then in the beginning as any time after was the same and had the same name as the trée of musterdséede is the trée of musterdséede whether it be growen litle or mikle Ar. 95. Pur. 14. But what a thing is this that you speake with the spirite of the Donatist and say The Popish Church is not in euery part of the world For Mahomets sect is in the greatest part Many countreys are Idolaters and the most parte of them that professe the name of Christ are not in the felowship of the Popish Church It is iumpe the argument of Cresconius Aug. cōtra Cresc li. 3. ca. 63. Argumentaris quod ideo nobis non totus Orbis communicet c. Thou makest this argument saith S. Augustine that therefore the whole world doth not communicate with vs because as yet either many men there are of the Barbarous Nations which haue not yet beleued in Christ or many Heresies vnder the name of Christ abhorring from the communion of our felowship The full answere therof you may reade ther in S. Augustine Although I alleage almost nothing but onely answere my length groweth tedious to my selfe and I feare to the Reader also not for any substance of your argumentes but for the multitude of your trifles to say the least and best of them As againe wher you say like non plus that Most Papistes will confesse Ar. 69. that many thinges in their Church haue neede of reformation as not being vniuersally perfect and that it is halting in many thinges from the trueth of Gods word neither yet dispersed ouer all the World but conteyned in a corner of Europa and therefore it is not by S. Augustines rule the Catholike Church Is yours then by that rule the Catholike Church As the Iewes care not if none be Christ so that Iesus be not Christ euen so you reason like men that care not if none be the Church so that the Romane be not O miserable People that must haue such Leaders The Church now may vouchsaue to be so spoken of by you when you speake no better here cap. 3. of the same Church also in S. Augustines time But we tell you with the wordes of S. Augustine for we confesse no more then he also doth by you alleaged wher he repeateth the Créede August de Gē ad 〈◊〉 imperfect ca. 1. Constitutam ab illo Matrem Ecclesiam That the Holy Ghost being geuen founded the Church our Mother quae Catholica dicitur her that is called Catholike ex eo quia vniuersaliter perfecta est et in nullo claudicat et per totum orbem diffusa est of this because she is vniuersally perfect and halteth in nothing though the Donatistes and other like Heretikes do neuer so much triumph in that interpretation and is spredde ouer all the World in maner aforesaide Both interpretations agrée to our Mother and we claime them accordingly saith S. Augustine and we whereas the Heretikes
then to the Arrians to be an Homousian If you Sacramentaries or Caluinistes delight not in the name of Protestants the Lutherans do and stand as earnestly against you vppon their senioritie for that name as we do stand agaynst you both vpon our senioritie for the name of Christians of Catholikes But your confessing of the name on the one side and yet saying on the other side that your true Christians delight not in it Ar. 65. Infra ca. 11. cont 50. Ar. 65. as also that they desire to be called Christians without choosing any other name I reserue to the place of your cōtradictions But of vs you say as much They can not be content with the name of Christians but choose vnto them selues new names after the calling of their Sect-masters as Franciscanes Dominicanes Benedictins Gilbertins Augustinians Scotistes Thomistes Albertistes c. This is answered in my Demaunds Motiues as all the rest also in effect Yet I say againe to it A Sect importeth a diuision Now what diuision is betwene those Catholikes and vs the other Catholiks that haue none of those names Be we not all of one faith and of one communion So easily is your accusation wyped away and not onely from vs I say who haue none of those names but also from our brethren who haue them They be not of that sort as the name of Christians and therefore by Logike you know not priuatiuely opposite therevnto But suche are these Arrians Pelagians Lutherans Caluinistes Protestantes Because being before of Christ of his vnitie of his communion all called Christians they for some matter either of faith or other diuiding themselues frō the same follow the communion or felowship of Arius of Pelagius of Luther of Caluin of those Protesters Why then are those our brethren so named if S. Augustine S. Benet S. Frauncis S. Dominike if S. Thomas and Scotus were not Sect-masters I answere the first sort because they professe to liue after the rules of those principall Abbots the other sort because they hold certaine Scholasticall questions which either can not be matters of faith or els as yet be not because they be not yet defined by the Church according to the opinions of those principall Schole Doctors 9. Conuersion of Heathen Nations Motiue 25. Article 1. My nienth Demaund doth note who are after the Apostles the Conuerters of all Nations from Paganisme whom the Scripture calleth the witnesses of Christ to the extremes of the earth Act. 1. to wit we and not the Protestants According to Tertullians most singular obseruation speaking of Heretikes and saying As touching the ministerie of the word Tertul. de Praesc what should I speake considering that this is their endeuour non Ethnicos conuertendi sed nostros euertendi Not to conuert the Heathen but to subuert our people This glory they do more seeke after Si stantibus ruinam non si iacentibus eleuationem operentur To work ruine to such as are standing and not raysing to such as are lying And so Fulke may glory I do not denie as he doth also where he saith Ar. 33. Ar. 95. The Land of Bohemia was conuerted by Iohn Hus and Hieromyn of Prage Againe in another place And at this day the most part of Europe is conuerted from Idolatry Heresie and Antichristianitie such he counteth the Catholike faith vnto the same true faith that we mainteine as in England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia by publike authoritie in Spaine and Italie a great number vnder persecution and tyrannie That is your glory in déede that you haue subuerted many in many Christian nations We can not so glory nor you can not shew that we haue done the like in any Nation although you say with a brasen face Ar. 3. It is certayne that the Popish Church hath peruerted and corrupted al parts of the Latine or Westerne Church with Idolatry and false religion But that you haue conuerted any Nation from Paganisme you do not nor you can not boast But the truth is although you say that we haue not cōuerted the Nations to Christes faith Pur. 460. but peruerted all nations from the faith of Christ that our Church that is to say the Cōmunion of S. Peters Sée Apostolike or the church beginning visibly at Hierusalem and visibly growing on to this day is she that conuerteth al Pagane Nations to be Christians not only at this present so many nations of both the Indies and in Afrike item so many others that this last thousand yeres haue bene conuerted thrée wherof you name Liuonia Prussia Lithuania Ar. 3.85 with this lying censure that we conuerted them by force of armes rather then by preaching and teaching but also all them that were conuerted either in the 500. yeres afore that or also in the Apostles time it selfe Against this cleare trueth what mist haue you to cast Forsooth not we but certaine Heretikes Schismatikes conuerted some nations to the profession of Christes name Ar. 2.3 though to false religion Do you graunt that it was to false religion yet bring that for an instance It is an euident argument that you had no instance in the nations that we cōfesse to haue bene conuerted to the true faith of Christ Was not this scope inough for you reason inough for vs when we say as in my Demaund you may sée that it was our Church by which all Nations were conuerted or corrected to the true faith of Christ And yet also for your said instancies where you quote your Authors they shall be answered In the meane time I quote to you Eus li. 2. ca. 1. reporting the conuersion of Ethiopia to haue bene of the right stampe according to Psal 67. and Act. 8. which two places he there doth cite Ar. 2.3 because you to shew that the true Church of Christ did not conuert all do say For in Aethiopia there are yet people conuerted by the False Apostles whiche taught circumcision obseruation of the Law in which heresie they continue vnto this day Who should tell that better then the Ethiopians themselues whom we sée to haue their house at Rome and to be Catholikes And your selfe do saye in another place Pur. 357. that their Liturgie doth sauour playnly the vsage of the Greke Church Their Emperour did his obediēce to Paulus III and also an Ethiopian Abbot which Abbot in his Epistle dedicatorie before the rites of their Baptisme Liturgie doth expresly inueigh against them that did falsly report of them as not Catholikes and obedient subiects to the Sée Apostolike much reioysing therein and desiering that they might be so taken Howbeit I denie not but there might be some corruption though not of heresie peraduenture but for lacke of frée conuersing béeing intercluded by the Turkes and Saracenes and often oppressed by Tyrants and Infidels of their owne with the Romane Church In qua semper ab ijs qui sunt
vndique Ire li. 3. ca. 3 conseruata est ea quae est ab Apostolis traditio In which Church saith S. Irenée that is by repayring to it the faithfull that be all about haue alwayes preserued theÌ„ selues in the tradition that coÌ„meth from the Apostles And where you say for another instance Ar. 2.3 Pur. 337. It is manifest by al Histories that the Nations of the Alanes Gothes Vandales were first conuerted by the Arrians in so saying you declare that you neuer read the Ecclesiasticall Histories presuming notwithstanding to write against these Articles which are in maner nothing els but certayne obseruations therof Reade Socrates li. 2. ca. 32. and not onely li. 4. ca. 27. and Sozomenus li. 6. ca. 37. but specially Theodoret li. 4. ca. 32. who as a Catholike Bishop of purpose to take from the Arrians that vayne bragge of theirs sheweth that the Gothes were first Catholikes and not as you say first conuerted by the Arrians but onely by false informations and to much trusting of their Bishop Vlphilas béeing another Balaam ledde out of the way You talke also of the Nations that were coÌ„uerted by the Donatists Nouatians Pur. 337. But we shall know your Histories authors hereafter Againe you say And it is also manifest by Histories Ar. 3. that the Grecians whoÌ„ the Papists count no part of their church but Schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all Did the Grecians conuert them since their Schisme O great Historian The truth is there was great emulation then in the Grecians against the Latins but not schisme nor heresie as yet nor long after and therefore of our Church they were then Howbeit it is not the true faith nor our religion as you say truely which the Moscouites haue but such as they them selues did list to receiue with many qualifications and modifications of their owne such was the fruite of the Grecians emulation and such is the necessitie that S. Peter cast the nette But if Histories fayle you yet one demonstration ex per se notis you haue to proue that not we but you conuerted all true Christian Nations Ar. 2. And what is that If the Papist can proue that we hold not the same faith and trueth vnto which the Apostles conuerted the Nations we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ The Papist proueth to omitte a 1000. others of his proufes that you be Heretikes and therefore hold not the same faith c. by the testimonie of that which your selfe confesse to be the true Church of Christ here cap. 2. and cap. 3. Againe We are members witnesse your Separation here Dem. 3. Ar. 2.3 of that Church which conuerted all Landes in the earth that are conuerted to the true Religion of Christ and we affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in steed of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are readie to proue by the word of God Witnesse here cap. 8. Where all your absurd Deprauations of Gods word are answered and not that onely but also shewed by the expresse word of God among other thinges that the Sacrament of Confirmation went euery whither together with the Apostles Gospell as the chiefest point of Christianitie Ar. 3. pag. 145. But no maruaile of your audacitie to say we are readie to proue it considering that you are bold to conclude of this saying thus I haue shewed that our church holding the true Doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all Nations to true Religion Then belike all those Nations were and are of your Religion and you will be content to be tryed by them as by Afrike for example whose Religion we know by Tertullian S. Cyprian S. Optatus S. Augustine c. Or if you haue better Monumentes of any other Nations Religion name it and let vs try it betwene vs. But whosoeuer séeth here cap. 3. how you are faine to charge the true Church the Primatiue Church with erring may easily coniecture what you dare doe Motiue 17. 11. Britannie Well we be English men and therefore in a seuerall Demaund I name our Countrie England or Britannie vnto you Specially because the Prophetes as you know speake much of the conuersion of Ilands expresly and namely of such Ilands as were farthest of As also because there are extaÌ„t such monumeÌ„ts of our Ilands conuersion and religion in Tertullian Origen S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Gregory the Pope with many other like and specially in the History of our owne countreyman S Bede But here Fulke telleth such English men that list not to be deceiued Pur. 346. but to see into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles that they were better to consider the word of God the Historie of the Acts of the Apostles and biddeth vs of so many Nations there recorded to name one Pur. 166.332 vnto which Purgatory or praying and sacrificing for the dead was taught You are profoundly seene in the Scriptures I perceiue by this Why was the Actes of the Apostles written to shew into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles Nay is there so much as any mention of the twelue Apostles preaching to any nation of the Gentiles No syr that booke was written to shew onely the beginning of the Church according to the Prophets to wit at Hierusalem and among the Iewes and the taking of it froÌ„ them for their deserts and geuing of it to the Gentils euen froÌ„ Hierusalem the head of the Iewes to Rome the head of the Gentiles And there S. Luke endeth it not caring to tel so much as the fulfilling of that which our Lord had foretold Act. 27. to S. Paule in whose person this traÌ„slation was wrought and not in S. Peters nor any others of the Twelue for causes to long to be here rendred Caesari te oportet assistere Thou must stand before the Emperour Because his purpose was no more but to shew the new Hierusalem of the Christians and so to leaue them to it to know what are the particulars that the Apostles taught And so withall you haue one of those Nations named in the Actes and that no common one â—o wit the Romanes which receiued of the Apostles not only the Article that you require but also all the rest which at this time it hath neither you béeing able by Scripture or otherwise to proue the contrarie so muche as in any one and we prouing it both a particulars and in the totall summe partly by Scriptures partly by other vnauoydable demonstrations Well for all this trigiuersation by which you sée what you haue wonne you will yet be content to be tryed by our Britannie Ar. 49. For you confesse that the Church of the Brytans or Welchmen before Augustine came in to conuert the Englishmen Anno 597. continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time Pur. 332. so that
in such a tongue And these Catholikes now receiue the like prayers of the same holy Ghost but by the Church Secondly that the Church in her publike praiers doth not speake in a tongue because the Latine tongue is not in Englande a straunge tongue so as it were if one should say Masse at Rome in the English tongue And so the question is not now the same as was betwéene the Apostle and the Corinthians but whereas the Church would do all things for edification as S. Paule commaundeth the question is whether this be obteined in the Publike prayers of the whole worlde rather by the Latine tongue that is to saye by the Common tongue or els by the seuerall vulgare tongues that is to say by the Priuate tongues To which question the Catholikes drawing all to common or vnitie haue one answer Heretikes and Schismatikes drawing from the Common and scattering into many Priuates haue an other At Corinth the case was otherwise both because the tongues were vtterly straunge and also because the prayers were not Set and Solemne in writing and custome but momentaneous suggested of the Holy ghost to some one for the time so that of them they were not vnderstood there was no profite at all in their publication And therefore they should not publish them but speake to them selues and to God Reade the learned Latin booke of F. Ledesima the Iesuite vpon this matter He sheweth at large and substantially that it is neither necessarie no nor expedient the Publike Seruice to be in all vulgare tongues howbeit the Popes holines may by the Councell of Trent do therin with any Nation as he seeth cause And Fulke can not nor doth not denie but that in the Primitiue Church all the Natiōs of the Latine Church had the seruice in Latine neither can he or doth he denie but many of the same Natiōs had vulgare tongues of their owne which were not Latine as the Punike tongue the Dutch tongue the Brytish tōgue c. What doth he then He holdeth that all the people and yet once he dare not but adde For the most parte which is ynough against him of the said Nations besydes their vulgare tongues spake and vnderstood Latine And how doth he proue this absurd position By the Germaine or French Councelles of Towres Turon 3. c. 17. Magunt c. 25.45.43 Rhem. c. 15. Magunce and Rhemes in the time of Carolus Magnus Whereas one of his places is so plaine against him that it saith as we do now also yf any man cannot learne so strange and hard was the Latine tongue vnto them his Créede and Pater noster in Latine Vel in sua lingua hoc discat Let him learne it at the least in his owne tongue One other taketh order for Homilies to be translated out of Latine into the Rusticall * The French is yet in some place called the Romane Romane or Dutche tongue playnly quo facilius cuncti possint intelligere quae dicuntur that al may more easily vnderstand that which is said Wherof he gathereth that all the Dutch men vnderstood also the pure Latin tongue though hardly and not perfectly He might gather aswell that all English men vnderstand the Latine tongue and the pure Latine tongue if the Bishops should say as they may Let Latine Homilies be translated into the Englishe tongue playnely that all maye more easily vnderstande what is saide Another doth forbid the Priest to say Masse alone because some body must answer to Dominus vobiscum and Sursum corda c. as also at this time and therefore he gathereth properly forsooth that the people commonly vnderstood the Latine Seruice Ar. 41.49 Cap. 9. Last of all he alleageth the great Councell of Laterane An. 1215. as though it commaunded the Bishops to translate the Seruice into English and other vulgar tongues whereas it doth no more but commaunde them because at that time the Latines were Lords of Constātinople Antioch Hierusalem c. to prouide ministers according to the rites and languages in which the Seruice presently was as it is euident by the words of the Councell And otherwise I aske him why it prouideth but only for those Cities and Diocesses in which people of diuers languages be mingled together and not for all in generall Besides that in no place any such translating of the seruice was put in execution Amongst those 1300. Prelats was there not one but he was either so negligent or so desirous of the peoples blindnes And that neither among those of thē which procured the making of that Canon This is the stuffe that they haue against Gods Church or rather this is the execation and infatuation of them that haue forsaken Gods Church Motiue 34. 23. Apish imitation The next Demaund sheweth them to be but the Apes of the Catholike Church in so much as they retayne of her Seruice and other orders leauing it to the consideration of the learned in the Scriptures and other writings that false Religion was always the Ape of true Religion as in the rest that they haue reiected they shew them selues to be Apostataes according to that I noted here cap. 8. pag. 144. Wherein the Puritanes are offended with their brethren the Protestants onely because they will not procéede so farre in this Apostasie as they and their master Antichrist who commeth to méete them as it were halfe way would haue them Pur. 379. And that is it which Fulke saith to D. Allen The ciuill Magistrates haue thought good in some outward ceremonie or vsage to beare with the infirmitie of the weaker sorte of your side Fulke is no Puritant in hope to winne them Where he saith further All your doctrine is abolished and nothing left but a fewe ragges of your robes to looke vpon And therefore I accorde with you that in déede they be infirme or rather down dead already that will be wonne from Gods Church to such companions by so babish meanes Whether that were the ciuil Magistrates meaning or no I séeke not but his meaning who mystically worketh in you was and is as I haue said Apostasie And therefore againe where you say I will vrge the Papists to tell me Pur. 295. what we say or do in the celebration of the Communion which Christ cōmaunded vs not to say and do or what Christ did or cōmaunded vs to do which we do not therein I say that you be answered already that whatsoeuer is therein against the holy Masse of which we vrge you in like sort is against Christes commaundement who said expresly to his Apostles and their Successors being the orderers of the same He that despiseth you despiseth me Luc. 10. Insomuch that S. Augustine talking of such matters condemneth you here cap. 6. pag. 45. of most insolent madnesse onely for calling in question the Masse or any part therof that is vniuersally receiued Of which matter and of your said Apostasie this Demaund following giueth further
you gather that the body of Christ which he saith was the Sacrifice that was offered was not the naturall body of Christ but his mysticall body because he saith the Martyrs and it were all one He saith not so not that they are all one or the same but that they are of the mysticall body of Christ which whole mystical body is offered there to God in the offering of his naturall body for there are speciall memories of euery sort of the Saintes in heauen of the Soules in Purgatory of the Catholiks in earth The bread wine also in which his said naturall body and bloud are consecrated are such things a Au tract 26. in Ioan. Quae in vnum rediguntur ex multis as of many cornes and grapes are brought into one loafe and cup Water also b Cyp. epi. 63. to signifie vs againe béeing mingled with the wine Herevpon he saith in the same c Aug. ciu li. 10. c. 6.20 worke that in the Sacrament of the Altar it is shewed to the Church that in the oblation which she doth offer her selfe is offered And that aswell she by him as he by her is vsually offered And therefore it can not be thought that this naturall body there offered is offered to the Martyrs or to the Church as the Paganes and Manichées did charge the Christian Catholikes vpon their offering of that naturall body ouer the shrines of Martyrs You might therefore haue gathered as well that the Body which he offered vpon the Crosse was not his naturall body but his mysticall body the Church because in offering it there for his Church he offered his Church to God with it Reade De Ciu. li. 10. ca. 6. and there you shall sée that he sheweth how the workes of mercie are a sacrifice item a person consecrated to God Item our body Item our soule Item tota ipsa redempta Ciuitas hoc est congregatio societasque sanctorum the whole redeemed Citie it selfe that is the congregation and societie of the holy which he calleth vniuersale sacrificium An vniuersall Sacrifice And that after all these metaphorical Sacrifices he distinguisheth from them all not onely the Sacrifice of the Crosse but also the Sacrifice of the Altar which you confounde with that vniuersall Sacrifice not considering that he so often calleth it the one and the singuler Sacrifice of the Christians Besides these Pur. 361.293 you haue two places out of Tertullian and Ireneus The former sheweth you say what was the chiefest Sacrifice that they did offer to wit Prayer The other likewise sheweth that by the name of the Sacrifice of the Church he meaneth not the Sacrifice of the Masse which they call propitiatorie for the sinnes of the quicke and the dead but the Sacrifice of thankesgeuing and prayers Tertul. in Apol. Tertullian telleth there the Gentiles in defence of the Christians first what thinges they prayed for in the Canon of the Masse to wit for their Romane Empire among other thinges the place goeth here before cap. 9. pag. 197. Then why not to their Goddes Haec ab alio orare nō possum quā c. These thinges I cannot praye for of any other but of whom I knowe that I shall obteyne them quoniam et ipse est qui solus praestat c. For both he it is who onely doth geue them and I am he to whom is due to obtayne being his seruant which worship him onely Then also why not with their blood Sacrifices of fat calues c. qui ei offero opimam et maiorem hostiam quam ipse mandauit orationem de carne pudica de anima innocente de spiritu sancto profatam which offer to him a fat and greater host that which he himselfe commaunded to wit prayer pronounced out of a chast body out of an innocent soule out of an holy spirite Where in the name of that Prayer he comprehendeth all that is saide and done in the Masse of the faithfull which to this day also the Priest therefore beginneth saying vnto vs after the Gospell Dominus vobiscum Oremus Let vs pray and immediatly goeth to the bread and wine Hier. epist ad Euagriū c. Because this pure Sacrifice is made celebrated with Prayer ad Presbyterorum preces Christi corpus sanguisue conficitur Christes body and bloud is made by the Priestes prayers saith S. Hierome and because euen the old house of those Leuiticall bloud Sacrifices also was called Mat. 21. Isa 56. Domus orationis The house of prayer And as Tertullian setteth out agaynst the impure Paganes the puritie of the Church in her Sacrifice so doth S. Irenée set out the same against the Iewes and Heretikes Iren. li. 4. cap. 34. Mala. 1. to shewe that the pure Sacrifice in Malachie is offered by her alone quoniam cum simplicitate Ecclesia offert Because the Church offreth with simplicitie of faith hope and charitie whereas the Iewes hands are now full of bloud and all the Synagogues of those olde Heretikes helde the bread and wine to be of an yll creation For this cause he telleth them that the conscience of him that doth offer beeing pure doth sanctifie the Sacrifice and causeth God to accept it as comming from a friend And that the Sacrifices do not sanctifie a man Non enim indiget Sacrificio Deus for God doth not neede a Sacrifice so as néede should make him glad of it as it maketh a begger glad whether the giuer be a friend or a foe And do not we say the same Can any Heretike pleade as vpon our verdite that he pleaseth God in offering to him bread or wine yea or also the body it selfe and bloud of Christ so as all Priestes doe in their Caluinicall Communion no lesse then we doe in the Masse And yet the Sacrifice of it selfe is suche as pleaseth God and sanctifieth the offerer but for his owne indisposition Like as Baptisme of it selfe would cleanse the conscience Heb. 9.10 though oftentimes it doth not for fault in the receiuers of it For it is not the worthines of men but the worthines of Christ whereof the owne and proper vertue of his Sacramentes and of his Sacrifice both of the Altar and of the Crosse dependeth Motiue 35. 25. Monkes My 25. Demaund noteth that these Heretikes haue cutte off from the Church her best and perfectest member to wit Monkes and Nunnes who were so common in the Primitiue Churche that to bring all to the fashion of the Primitiue Church as they pretende they shoulde haue made all to be Monkes rather then none to be Monkes And Fulke doth nothing here but helpe our side in that he * Ar. 29.85 Pur. 87.297.250 Hic cap. 9. often reiecteth Monkes Heremites Anachorites Canons Fryers Nunnes graunting them no place in the Churche of Christe partely by an argument ab authoritate Ephes 4. negatiuè whiche I aunswered here in the 24. Demaunde treating of Bishoppes Priestes and
of Peter or of Stephanus his successor and a most glorious Martyr They thought that they had reason and Scripture on their side and the Pope nothing but authoritie and custome And therevpon when he had written and commaunded to the contrarie contra scripsisset atque praecepisset they made much a doe for a while and in anger as S. Augustine writeth poured out words against him But in the end Au. de bap con Dona. li. 5. ca. 23 25. when they must néedes eyther yéelde or be Schismatikes because he would tolerate them no longer they did like Catholike men they conformed their new practise for all their Councels both in Phrigia and in Africa to the old custome that the Pope obserued as I noted here in the 5. Dem. pag. 272. And at the last the Nicene Councel also gaue voyce with the Pope and condemned the Donatists who pretended to folowe S. Cyprian of Heresie for their obstinacie Therfore these are two notable examples of vnitie with S. Peters chayre as a thing most necessarie And generally al other Catholike writers that you do here cap. 9. pag. 218. or can alleage as it were against that Sée did sticke vnseparably to that Sée Aug. epist 166. Which S. Augustine for that cause calleth Cathedram vnitatis The Chayre of vnitie in which he saith God hath placed Doctrinam veritatis the doctrine of veritie But you for al this haue found a place in S. Hierom to breake this bond For you say vpon it Lo Syr here is Pur. 374. Hier. Euag. Hovv agreeth this vvith him selfe here cap. i. and ij a Churche and Christianitie and a rule of trueth without the Bishop of Rome without the Church of Rome yea and contrary to the Church of Rome Notably gathered For he saith the cleane contrarie Nec altera Romanae vrbis Ecclesia altera totius orbis existimanda est We muste not thinke that there is one Church of the Citie of Rome another of all the world But both is one And why because the Galles and the Brytons and Affrica and Persia and the Orient and India and all the Barbarous Nations Vnum Christū adorant vnam obseruant regulam veritatis Do worship the one Christ do obserue the one rule of trueth and so be not diuided from the one Church by any Schisme nor by any Heresie So perfect was the vnitie of all Catholikes at that time which agréeth handsomly with your imaginations of local yea vniuersall corruptions here cap. 3. Now in this vnitie of trueth yet was there diuersitie of vsages In Rome a Priest was ordeined at the Deacons witnesse which is now obserued euery where Therupon and specially for the great estimation of the Archdeacons some Deacons thought them selues higher in order then Priests S. Hierom saith therfore Quid mihi profers vrbis consuetudinem c. What bring you me the custome of the Citie If authoritie be sought the world is greater then the Citie And who doubteth but the vsages of the whole Church in vnitie be of greter authoritie then the priuate custome of Rome alone He telleth them also that a Bishop of the meanest Citie is eiusdem Sacerdotij of the same order as the Bishop of Rome of Constantinople of Alexandria And consequently that a Priest who by his order may do all things that be of order sauing onely giuing of orders is of another maner of order then a Deacon All this is most true and much for vs nothing for you You haue also a few textes of Scripture against this head of the Churches vnitie But by the argument ab authoritate negatiue which your owne Logike condemned here cap. 8. pag. 134. I would desire none other place in al the Scripture Ar. 29. c. but Eph. 4 of Apostles Euangelistes Prophets Pastors and Teachers And especially seing the Apostle both there and 1. Cor. 12. by these offices proueth the vnitie of mind he acknowledgeth no Pope as one supreme head in earth which might be very profitable as the Papists say to mainteine this vnitie Which he would in no wise haue omitted Pur. 450. c. Againe We beleue that the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour vpon earth but Christ vnto whom all power is giuen in heauen and earth Mat. 28. Supreme head and chiefe gouernour be termes of your owne schole Belike therfore you would as a Puritane pull down also your owne setting vp specially * Suppose also one Christian king or Emperour to raigne sometime as far as the Church reacheth considering that Kings or Quéenes be no more then Popes named among S. Paules officers And truely you might also as an Anabaptist pull downe all Gouernours no lesse then the chiefe by that reason of Christes power ouer all You might also denie Euangelistes and Pastors which are named Ephe. 4. because they are omitted 1. Cor. 12. Likewise Powers Healers Helpers Gouernments Tongues Interpreters which are named 1. Cor. 12. with Apostles Prophets and Teathers because they are omitted Ephes 4. I must often say you vnderstande not the Scripture you do so often vtter your ignorance Our Sauiour did say after his Resurrection to his Apostles All power is giuen to me in heauen and earth to signifie that he might with good authoritie cōmit what power to thē he would inferring thervpon Ite ergo Go ye therefore and teach and baptize Eche of the tvvelue had Apostolike povver ouer all all Nations And to one of them singularly Feede my Lambes and my sheepe Wherefore S. Paule also in those two places doth say that all diuersitie of giftes and offices is Secundum mensuram donationis Christi according to the measure that it pleased Christ to giue to euery one and the holy Ghost to diuide to euery one as him pleaseth Therefore no cause why the lesser should enuy the greater or the greater despise the lesser Schismatically but all in vnitie content them selues with Christes distribution specially béeing so made by him for the necessitie and good of the whole He had therefore in suche places to expresse the diuersitie of greater and lesser but not necessarily of the greatest and least And yet to stoppe such Hereticall mouthes he saith 1. Cor. 12. expresly Non potest caput dicere pedibus The head vnder Christ can not say to the feete you are not necessarie vnto me Also Ephe. 4. in the name of Apostles he includeth the Successours of the Apostle S. Peter whose Sée for that cause is called The Apostolike See in singuler maner and their Decrees and Actes estéemed of Apostolike authoritie in all antiquitie I say of S. Peters authoritie to whose Chayre cōparing it with the Chayre of Carthage S. Augustine doth ascribe Apostolatus principatum The principalitie of Apostleship Apostolicae Cathedrae principatum Au. de bap con Dona. li. 2. ca. 1. Epist 162. The principalitie of the Chayre Apostolike which saith he hath alwayes florished in the Romane Church All this considered no reasonable man
Vnitie As though Christ or S. Augustine or we did speake of any other then Vnitie of Christian People and in Christian faith And if any Heresie among the Christians haue had their vnitie also that doth no more but declare that the same Heresie whatsoeuer it were might for this at the least claime the true Church better then the Protestantes For another shifte he sayeth Ar. 107. that the Church may be called the howse of peace because there is in it peace and agreement in the chiefest Articles of the Faith By which reason he might say that very many of the old Heresies were within the Howse of Peace because they agréed with the Church in the chéefest Articles But we say that any one Article be it of the chéefest or of the meanest may breake the peace as quartadecimani did disagrée onely in the day of Easter and many other like in S. Augustines Catalogue of Heresies to Quodvultdeus And therefore it helpeth his side nothing that he saith to excuse their diuision Ar. 63.61.62.10.58.96.103 that the Lutherans Zuinglians do differ but in one matter and that not the greatest to wit concerning the Sacrament the one affirming a Real presence the other denying it Be it so that among them are no more but these two Sectes and betwéene these no more difference which yet is most false as not onely large tables of their names set out by Catholikes but also innumerable Bookes about innumerable matters set out be them selues against one another and euen their own Puritanes now at home do notoriously declare One matter I say is inough yea also if it be but a ceremonie though you say of some of yours They differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Yes Syr when they holde their owne Ceremonies to be necessarie or condemne the Churches Ceremonies as vnlawful as those Quartadecimani did they are Heretikes and therefore diuided from the faith Howbeit also diuision is made sometimes without any disagréemēt so much as in a ceremonie as whē it is a méere Schisme not mixt with any Heresie at all Such were the Schismes that were towards among the Corinthians 1. Cor. 3.4 swelling one against another onely vpon their Baptizars and Teachers And therefore what is the matter that you differ in forceth not Onely if you diuide your selues and will not come to one anothers Churches where is your vnitie As for difference of opinions betwene our Canonists and Diuines or also betwene our Schole Diuines among them selues it is as I said in the 8. Dem. pag. 283. all without diuision all in vnitie Aug. cōtra Iul. li. 1. c. 2. De bap cō Donat. li. 1. ca. 18. all no otherwise then as S. Augustine saith Sometime also the most learned and best defenders regulae Catholicae of the Catholike rule do without breaking the frame of fayth not accorde and diuers be of diuers iudgementes without anye breake of peace vntill a generall Councell allowe some one parte for cleare and pure Suche was the difference of S. Cyprian his fellowes from the other Catholikes about Baptisme here in the 28. Dem. And suche was the difference betwéene some about the Popes or Councels superioritie before the Florentine Councell which by your owne confession here cap. 6. pag. 70. resolued the matter But your differences we say are with diuision with pertinacie without end a generall Councell can not finish them yea to nourish them for euer your very doctrine is that in Church or Generall Councell is no authoritie of such importance 36 Owners and keepers of the Scriptures Moti 8.30 Articl 2.3 My next Demaund to the Protestantes is S. Augustines Demaund to the Manichies which D. Allen doth prosequute in two Articles And it is grounded vpon the foresaide authoritie of the Church Aug. cōtra Ep. Fund ca. 5. If thou shouldest meete with one saith S. Augustine to a Manichee who doth not yet beleeue the bookes of the Gospell what wouldest thou doo to him saying vnto thee Non credo I do not beleeue them As of his owne selfe he there sayth Ego vero Euangelio non crederem nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoueret authoritas I verily shoulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the Catholike Churches authoritie did make me And then he gathereth therevppon and asketh Quibus ergo obtemperaui dicentibus crede Euangelio cur eis non obtemperem dicentibus mihi Noli credere Manichaeo Those therefore to whom I obeyed saying Beleeue the Gospell Why should I not obey the same men saying vnto me Do not beleeue Manicheus do not beléeue Luther Nowe to this what shifte hath Fulke He can not denie but that our Demaunde is vpon that Churth whiche is called Catholike nowe according to my sixte Demaunde pag. 227. as S. Augustines Demaunde was vpon that Church whiche was called Catholike then and as muche maligned of those Manichees as nowe of these Protestantes Neither can hee shewe but that as it hath still the same name so it is still the same Churche as I haue defended agaynst all his vayne Cauilles eyther out of the Scriptures cap. 8. pag. 124. or out of the Doctors cap. 9. pag. 155. And therefore béeing still all one Churche you shall sée if you marke that he sayth in his aunswere nothing of the one but it is common to the other and that it is all one for vs to frame our Demaund of the Catholike Church then Ar. 10. and of the Catholike Church now For thus he sayth The Primitiue Churches testimonie of the worde of God we allowe and beleeue But I deny that the Primitiue Church dyd affirme Luther to be an Heretike or the doctrine which he taught which we holde to be Heresie Here you denie it but in other places you confesse it where you graunt that they affirmed Aerius to bee an Heretike for denying prayer for the dead and were fayne therevpon to take exception against the same Primitiue Church by your colde shift of Only Scripture cap. 7. pag. 79. Tell vs then we say why we should obey the same Primitiue Church commaunding vs to beleue the Gospell and not obey it commaunding vs not to beléeue Aerius Iouinianus Vigilantius c. cap. 3. pag. 9. to 14. and consequently not to beleue Luther nor to care for all your carping in these two Artiticles of her Images and Inuocation of Saintes of her Sacrifice of her estimation of Customes Traditions writings of Doctors Decrees of Popes and Councels of her auncient Latine Translation of her corrupting either of the text of the Testament or of the true Religion conteined therein of her not translating of the Scriptures into all vulgar tongues of her workes of supererogation Abbeys Priories and Chauntries For touching all these things either it is euident in it selfe or in sundry places eyther you haue confessed or I haue proued or at least I haue defended that they were the Primitiue Churches also no lesse
as S. Irenée saith Non oportet adhuc quaerere apud alios veritatē quam facile est ab Ecclesia sumere No man must yet after all these most euident Demonstrations seeke the Trueth among any others which they may so easily take of the Churth because it is Depositorium diues the riche Stoarehouse of the Apostles 38 Old Heresies Motiue 4. Among the Protestants on the contrary side I say that there are to be founde very many of the Olde condemned Heresies Which is so playne that Fulke confesseth here cap. 3. Aerius Iouinianus and Vigilantius to haue bene counted Heretikes of the true auncient Church for sundry opinions of theirs nowe reuiued by the Protestantes And therefore is fayne cap. 7. pag. 80. for his owne cause to goe about to defende them partly with his stale of Only Scripture cap. 7. pag. 80. to the which I haue made aunswere cap. 8. pag. 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. partely with abusing sundrie places of the Scriptures and of the same Fathers which condemned those Heretikes to the which I haue answered cap. 8. and 9. partly also with more insolencie to charge those Fathers rather as defending Heresie agaynst Aerius c. cap. 3. wherevnto I haue answered cap. 6. sauing that the two Heresies which he layeth to them that hold with the Machabées and with Traditions as the Fathers do cap. 9. pag. 165. cap. 3.7 pa. 12.85 I haue answered in this present chap. in the 36. 29. Demaunds And so with one labour I haue cléered both the Fathers our selues together not to be Gnostici Valentinians Carpocratians Collyridians Ossenes Caianes in our Traditions in our Crosses and other Images in our Inuocation of Angels and Sants and worshipping of their Relikes nor to be Manichées Tiacianistes Montanistes Aerians in our Abstinence and Fastingdayes in our single life nor Gentiles Carpocratians Origenists Heracleonites Montanistes in our name of Sacrifice in our Purgatory Anealing and praying for the dead nor Arrians in our beeres for burying For such is his modesty and Christianity and truth to charge the Pillers of Christ with such heresies yea and moreouer to saye generally as I noted cap. 3. pag. 9. that if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shewe of pietie or charitie they woulde drawe it into vse whiche was the greate corrupting of those auncient tymes That we maye nowe be more content to heare him charge vs and say with all generalitie that is possible Pur. 287. In all tymes when soeuer and wheresoeuer was any peese of miste or darke corner though all the rest were light there were the steppes of your walke Which two golden sayings of his procéede of these two diuine opinions of their new Gospel that the Primitiue Church should prepare the way to Antichrist and that Christes Vicare should be Antichrist Wherof I haue spoken ynough cap. 8. and 9. Such opinions must vtter such sayings And yet not able for all that truely to charge the Church either Primitiue or of later time with so much as one point of Antichristianisme or Heresie as partly I haue declared cap. 6. and now wil declare for the rest They are such matters as agrée no otherwise to vs then to them whom he dare not to condemne and therfore not in the same maner as to the old Heretikes Ar. 21.22 Epiph. s 3. Haer. 80. 1. Cor 11. Hier. in Ezech 44. Of the Messalians or Martyrians you lerned saith he to shaue your beardes and to let your lockes grow long Comas muliebres producunt They kepe their heare long like women Do we so Be our heades like womens long heades womens heads bylike are rounded heades or S. Paule did meane that men should poll their heades Ita ad pressum tondentes vt rasorum similes videantur Cutting them so neare the skin that they should be like to shauen heades Or do not some Protestantes weare round heads and shaue their beardes as well as some Catholikes and some Catholikes euen also the Cleargie in Italie and Spayne weare beardes and polled heades as well as some Protestantes Epiphanius noteth it in those Monkes because they did it in contentione of contention and at that time and in that place when and where the Apostles statutes and the Churches orders were to the contrarie as yet they be touching womanly heades but not also euery where touching shauen beardes It is a signe that you abounde with substantiall stuffe against vs that you lay our heares to our charge Nothing was wont with you to be heresie vnlesse it could be proued contrarie to expresse Scripture Sup. dem 36. so easily we might answere all by your principles and that also excepting ceremonies Yet now conformitie and obedience to comly order for lacke of better matter must go for heresie Sée whether we do not more substātially charge you with the Messalians heresie for saying that the Sacraments and namely Baptisme Theo Haer. fab li. 4. Dam. Haer. 80. Eucharist and Orders do not conferre grace Reade Theodorete and Damascene Of the Pharisees you receiued your superstitious masking garments which you call Amictus Dalmaticus and Pallia as witnesseth Epiphanius in his Epistle to Acacius and Paulus Doth not also your owne order appoynt speciall and gorgeous garmentes in the ministrations And that in the Primitiue Church also were such I haue shewed here in the 21. Demaund and by name if you will you may reade of the Deacons Dalmatica and Alba to be worne in the time of the oblation and lesson out of the Gospell Con. Carth. 4. cap. 41. as also in other places both of them and the rest You might as well or also better haue brought this against the Leuiticall garments in the ministeries of the Iudaicall Temple Epipha ep ante lib. de Haer. Haer. 15.16 You do not consider that Epiphanius there reporteth the seuen sectes of the Iewes and describeth them namely the Scribes and the Pharisées in their common daily garments being Stolae siue Pallia and Dalmaticae siue amicula as we might say cassocks and gownes or clokes vpon them with simbriae fringes commaunded Nu. 15. Deut. 22. to haue made for ostentation of holines certayne superstitious additions enlargementes by which our Sauiour Mat. 23. doth note their hipocrisie Doth not this make sore against holy vestments in the Seruice of God An other sect of the Iewes were Hemerobaptistae touched by our Sauiour Mar. 7. Epipha ep ad Acac. Paulum Haer. 17. who said Neminē assequi vitam aeternam nisi qui quotidie baptizaretur None to obtaine life euerlasting but such a one as were baptized or washed euery day Of these were deriued your holy water saith Fulke to vs which you say you vse to put men in mind of their Baptisme O I sée our fault although we baptize but once for life euerlasting yet we would haue men to remember it euery day S. Paule deceaued vs Rom.
vs to death for it Ioan. 19. to say we be no Martyrs but Traytors Euen as the perfidious Iewes made as though our Master could not be king ouer our Soules but by Treason agaynst Cesar So the Heretikes say of his Vicare In suche casting of their blasphemous mouthes into heauen they doe but consent to the wicked that shedde the Saintes bloud Those whom Gods Church hath declared to be Saintes it is not Fulke nor his baudy Bale that with all their durt can blotte them out of the booke of life If S. Liberius were once an Arrian might he not be canonized for a Saint repenting afterwards Was not S. Augustine once a Manichée Yet the trueth is as D. Sanders sheweth at large that he neuer was an Arrian nor neuer saide of any so to be but onely by compulsion to haue subscribed to the Arrians against his owne conscience or rather not to the Arrians but onely to the deposition of Athanasius So one or two of the Doctors wrote béeing deceyued with the false rumour that the Heretikes had spredde before the trueth was set out in the Ecclesiasticall Historie But where was your witte when you alleaged against Canonization the example of burning Hermannus the Heretikes boanes who neuer was canonized by commaundement of Bonifacius 8. in Ferraria where they had worshipped him twentie yeres Apocryphally You say king Henry the sixt should haue bene canonized but onely for lacke of money ynough When you bring your authors you shall receiue your answere We can not proue you say that the Pope and our Church hath canonized the Apostles and principall Martyrs To make holydayes of them to name them among the Saints in Diptychis in the holy Canon of the Masse is not this proufe sufficient of their canonization yea and that the Primitiue Church which did so canonize them was not your church because you haue taken away their Dyptica and their dayes of S. Laurence I say and of so many other most glorious Martyrs which had suche canonicall memories in the Primitiue Churche also Yea and would take away the Apostles dayes also if you might haue your will as you vttered here in the 22. Dem. in speaking against all dayes of Saintes O but you haue a better waye to know Saints to wit they whose names are written in the booke of life You might do well to set out that booke in print that we might correct our Callendar after it If you haue not the booke it selfe haue you any more certayne way to know who are written in it then is the Churches declaration Or do you allow her testimonie in canonizing some Scripture for Gods word Saint Fulke by his ovvne industrie reiect it in canonizing some men for Gods Saintes But it is great iniurie to the Saintes of God that they be not so accounted while they liue Belike you would be called Saint Fulke that out of hand But for ought that I know you must tarry vntill you extend your doctrine and certaintie of Predestination farther For as yet you teach no more but that your selfe must and do knowe your selfe to be predestinate and so may canonize your selfe for a Saint for euer when you teach that others must know as much of you then blame them if they also do not canonize you And in the meane time blame not the Pope for canonization nor cōpare it to the making of Gods which the Heathen vsed séeing it is no greater a matter then your selfe can doe nor the title greater then men aliue should haue and specially séeing Iohn Hus and Ierome of Prage haue as you say as solemne feastes in your Bohemians Callender as Peter and Paule No man els néedeth to take the paynes your selfe build vp againe with one hand that which you pulled downe with the other 47 Communion of Saintes The next Demaund is about The Cōmunion of Saintes Moti 43. that is to say of all Christians to shew our Countreymen to what a paucitie and against what a multitude they ioyne them selues and that in the matter of saluation or damnation So it is that Fulke doth brag of the most part of Europe here in the 9. Dem. and cap. 9. pag. 177. naming England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmarke Suetia Bohemia Polonia Spayne Italy I denie not but there are Heretikes in al these Countreys at the least in corners And therefore if all Heretikes be of your religion and communion that you may bragge as you doe But the trueth is that euen those Heretikes also which be of your Religion out of England if any be for I doubt whether any will allow a woman to be head of the Church but only your selues to name no other of your peculiar articles yet are they not I say of your communion nor you of theirs as appeareth euidently by this that neither in a Generall Councell if you should hold any you haue authoritie one ouer another no more then two distinct Realmes with their seuerall kings haue authoritie one ouer the other in worldly matters But Catholikes in the meane time whersoeuer they are they be al of one Religion of one communion Therfore to giue the ignorant some light in these matters as S. Augustine said often against the Donatists Aug. de vn Eccl. 3. De pastorib ca. 8. so do I. I say two things first that in all Nations parts of Nations where any of al these Sects are found Catholikes also are found dayly do encrease One example for all of our owne Countrie best knowen to our Countreymen where although they be turned out of all their Churches as in very few others yet the multitude of the people is knowen to be stil Catholike in hart of our communion though drawen against their wills to the contrarie yea and innumerable of them recōciled as all in maner would be who séeth not if they were at their owne libertie Secondly I say that Catholikes are in many Nations and partes of Nations where none at all of the Sectes are or so fewe that they are not to be counted of as in all Spayne all Portugall all Italie most partes of Fraunce many partes of Germanie c. Wherby any man may easily conceiue that the Catholikes at this day in Europe are incomparably more then all the Sectaries put together encreasing withall euery day specially by meanes of Seminaries and Iesuites for the purpose and they diminishing How much more adding to these the Catholikes that be in Africa and in Asia among the old named Christians of those parts And more againe infinitely adding yet the innumerable new Christians in the farder partes of them both conuerted within these fiftie yeres by the Iesuites And agayne the like in Nouo orbe vnder the king of Spayne by the Friers in so much that many yeares since it is written of that alone Surius ad An. do 1558. Tot autem hominū millia in illo nouo orbe Christi c. So
also for hereafter Euen as Fulke also him selfe saith Ar. 78. Pur. 298. In despight of the diuel and all her enemies she is to this day preserued and shall be to the worlds ende and none other but she Moti 48. 51 Apostasie Last of al I shew that it is not so much an Heresie as a plaine Apostasie from Christ that the Protestants haue brought in vnder the name of the Gospel Wherof also I haue said ynough ca. 8. pag. 118. So that if it were euer damnable to giue eare to any Heretikes it is damnable to giue eare to these Which it were good for all men to thinke earnestly vpon before it be to late ¶ The eleuenth Chapter What grosse Contradictions Fulke is driuen to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof BEsides all that hath bene yet said another most iust motiue not to follow the Protestants may be this to any reasonable man because they know not themselues what to holde nor what to say and therefore doe vtter straunge contradictions in their bookes by reason that they will say any thing rather then yéelde plainely to the trueth A notable ensample hereof we haue in Fulke specially about the question of the Church in his booke of the Articles as I will here note very briefely leauing to the discrete Readers consideratiō what I might enlarge vpon euery particular First as touching the Church of Rome on the one side thus he saith Ar. 96. You are neuer able to answere the argumentes that Peter was neuer at Rome And then where is the Apostolike Sea succession c Then on the contrarie side The Church of Rome was founded by the Apostles b Pur. 373.361.374 it was an Apostolike Church 2 c Pur. 373.374 Those auncient Fathers whom D. Allen doth name the last of them is Vincentius Lirinensis An. 420. did appeale to the iudgement of the Church of Rome against all heresies and c Pur. 373.374 among the Apostolike Churches specially named the Church of Rome because it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles Yet contra where d Apud Au. de gra Chr. cont Pelag. c. 43 Pelagius within that compasse commended S. Ambrose for the Romaine faith and most pure sence in the Scriptures Fulke saith therevpon e Pu. 405. And by the way note here the Hereticall bragge of the Romaine faith 3 Speaking of the same Fathers and Church of Rome f Pur. 374. It had by Succession reteined euē vntill their dayes that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Contra g Ar. 85. She the Church of Rome hath had no orderly Succession of Bishops except so many Schismes as they write of be orderly Successions By the time of those Fathers there had bene foure Schismes 4 h Pur. 373.374 It continued at that time in the doctrine of the Apostles h Pur. 373.374 it reteined by Succession that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Contra He charged it with sundrie errors here Cap. 3. .4 namely P. Liberius with Arrianisme P. Innocentius for housling of Infantes eight Popes for the Supremacie 5 i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. It was a true Church an Apostolike Church i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. a faithfull Church true i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. and Apostolike Faith and Religion haue dwelled in her Contra k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 The Church of Rome neuer preached the word of trueth She neuer had sence she first arose the ministring of Sacramentes according to Christes institution The true Catholike Church hath ouerthrowen Heresies of all sortes But the Popish Church was neuer able to encounter with Heretikes k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 Rome may be a nurse of Antichristians but neuer did good vnto Christians k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 I am able to proue that the Primitiue Church affirmed a Supra pag. 29. your Church to be the Church of Antichrist He meaneth the l Supra ca. 9. pag. 155. places of S. Irenée S. Hierome S. Augustine calling Rome Babylon which he vnderstandeth as though they had so called the Church of Rome in their time also as the Protestants doe now at this time 6 m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie whereof the whore beareth a cuppe full out of which all Nations haue drunke m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. Euen from the Apostles time the diuell neuer left to set in his foote for his sonne Antichristes dominion vntill he had placed him in the Temple of God prepared the wide world for his walke and then came m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. The Generall defection Contra Ar. 38.16.33.34 Supr p. 117. All Nations neuer consented to the doctrine of the Papistes For as it hath bene often said the Greeke Church and all other Orientall Churches of Asia and Africa neuer receiued the Popish Religion in many chiefe pointes and specially in acknowledging the Popes authoritie they will not vnto this day acknowledge her doctrine to be Catholike nor her authoritie to be lawfull And yet we shall now heare that the preuailing of the Popes religion and his Antichristian exaltation consisteth specially in that point Ar. 36. 7 The religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled in the yere of our Lord 607. in which the Pope first obteined his Antichristian exaltation to wit Bonifacius the 3. of Phocas the Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church Contra in the same place Because you speake of the first entring of Popish religion which dependeth chiefly vpon the Popes authoritie it first began to aduaunce it selfe in Victor about the yere of our Lord 200. And likewise in diuers others before S. Bonifacius the third as he confesseth here cap. 3. and withall that the Church of Rome all that while was the Church of Christ and not of Antichrist Ar. 102. Pur. 287.238 8 The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie Euen in the Apostles time and from that time in all times whensoeuer and wheresoeuer was any peece of myste or darke corner though all the reste were light there were the steppes of your walke It may be a shame for you Papistes to leaue and condemne for heresie all that is true in the Fathers writings and agreable to the Scripture Ar. 43. Contra where he distinguisheth the Religion of the Papistes from the great heresies and open aduersaries that sought to beate downe the chief foundations of Christian faith as the Valentinians Marcionistes Manichees Arrians Sabellians and such like monsters Ar. 43.36.38 Supra c. 10. pag. 223. 9 We say not that the Religion of the Papists came in sodenly but that it entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espyed by the true Pastors beeing earnestly occupied against great
their liues as by the storie it is certayne The other that neither these afore their appearing were secrete Protestantes or Heretikes but open Papistes or Catholikes as I noted before of Luther And so he hath not yet found his Chimera or inuisible Church 20 To bring her againe into open light Ar. 16.96 Which is now brought to passe in our dayes Contra From the yere of our Lord 1414. Ar. 36. being the time of the Councell of Constance the bright beames of the Gospell haue shined in the world 21 The Reuelation of Antichrist with the Churches flight into the wildernes was An. 607. when Bonifacius the third c. Ar. 38.36.16 For vntill then the mysterie of iniquitie was preparing for his reuelation and cōming and for the Generall defection Contra Ar. 16. She hath not decayed there in the wildernes but bene always preserued vntil god should reueale Antichrist which is now brought to passe in our dayes 22 The Churches being in the wildernes was Ar. 27.95 to be out of the sight knowledge of the wicked Contra speaking of the same space She was narrowly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a long season Againe Although it were vnknowen to the Papistes yet it was in Italie when Marsilius of Padua preached in Fraunce when Waldo in England whē Wickleue in Bohemia when Hus and Ierom of Prage did florish Why all these were well knowen to the Papistes Ar. 80. 23 A rule of the Logicians No man knoweth a relatiue except he know the correlatiue thereof Therefore though Christ had a bodie in earth yet could it be knowen of none but such as knew Christ the head of that bodie of whom the Papistes were ignorant Ar. 96. Contra Our Church is now againe brought to light and knowlege of the world So that now bylike the Papistes know Christ Pur. 450. Ar. 77.79.80 or the Logicians rule is verified onely for the time of the Churches being in the wildernes according as in other places he moderateth the matter saying We beleeue that the Church is not alwayes knowen to the wicked vpon earth Pur. 405. Ar. 95.82.74.80 24 We beleeue that the vniuersall Church is not seene at all of men because it is in heauen Contra Our Church when it was most hidden might rightly be called Catholike that is vniuersall c. Here cap. 10. Dem. 6. And whereas you say that no man aliue could name the place where it was you make an impudent lye For although it were vnknowen to the Papistes and enemies thereof yet was it knowen to the true members thereof Pur. 377. 25 And as for our Mother Church is no certaine place or companie of men in any one place vpon earth but Ierusalem which is aboue is mother of vs al. Contra c Ar. 95.79.82.106 That no man aliue could name the place where it was is an impudent lye It was in Italy when Marsilius preached c. Vt supra in contrad 22. c Ar. 95.79.82.106 Chrs s t hath neuer wanted his Spouse in earth though the blind worlde when they see her will not acknowledge her to be his Spouse but persecute her as if she were an adulteresse c Ar. 95.79.82.106 She was knowen to them that were her children c Ar. 95.79.82.106 The Church of Christ is the nurse of Christians Ierusalem that is from aboue is mother of vs all Ar. 95. 26 It is not called Catholike because it should be euery where For that it neuer was nor neuer shall be Contra d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 It should ouerflow and fill all the world with righteousnes Esa 10. d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 That God hath an holy vniuersall Congregation it is necessarie to beleeue d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 It is dispersed in many places ouer all the world 27 e Ar. 12.3.69 Christes Church is now by God inlarged farther thē the Popish Church Contra f Ar. 73.80 It is but a small flocke in comparison of the malignant Church of Antichrist whose number is as the sand of the sea Apoc. 20. 28 It is a good argument that the Popish Church is not the Church of Christ Ar. 27. because it was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp in so much that you can name the notable persons in all ages in their gouernement and ministerie and especially the succession of Popes you can rehearse in order vpon your fingers And it were a token that our Church were not the true Church if we could name suche notable persons in their gouernement and ministerie Contra a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 Suche officers as are necessarie for the conseruation of Gods people in the vnitie of fayth and the knowledge of Christe our Churche hath neuer lacked notwithstanding that through iniurie of the time a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 because our Churche had not so many Registers Chroniclers and remembrauncers the remembraunce of all their names is not come vnto vs. a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 For the authoritie of the Bible we haue the testimonie of the true Churche in all ages a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 Our Congregation hath euer had possession of the Scriptures Their inuisible Church had alvvayes the Scripture in the vulgare tongues a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 God hath neuer suffered the true Churche to be destitute of the necessarie vse of the Scripture Whiche the Popishe Churche hath so keapt in an vnknowen tongue that the people coulde haue no vse muche lesse the necessarie vse thereof a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The Churche of God hath alwayes had Scholes and Vniuersities for the mainteinance of godly learning a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 It was neuer so secret nor hidden but it might be knowen of all those that had eyes to see it a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 That thousand yeres there was gathering together for preaching ministring and correcting a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The Church hath neuer bene afrayde to do her office towards her children and true members in teaching exhorting comforting confirming c. 29 The Popish Church was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp Contra Ar. 27. Ar. 85. The Church of Rome hath not alwayes practised open preaching and neuer preached the word of trueth 30 Touching the text Mat. 5. of a Citie buylded vpon an hill Ar. 100. which can not be hidden after he hath giuen his sense of it he saith Hereby it appeareth how fondly some Papistes and some of the Doctors in their error do expoūd this place to proue that the Church must alwayes be visible Contra euen in his owne exposition there It is properly
of the same place may be deduced also many other contradictions in that among the same chiefe poyntes and foundation he reckoneth also the honor of God the offices of Christ the fruites of his passion the authoritie of Gods worde Images saying that the Fathers in these also were against vs and therefore not of our Church and yet graunteth that the same Fathers helde with vs euen those very poyntes which in vs he counteth contrarie vnto these and to the foundation to witte Honoring of Relikes Inuocation of Saintes Merites Traditions vnwritten Images of the Crosse as by his owne words appeareth here cap. 3. and 7. And them so earnestly also that they condemned the contraries for Heresies Yet saith Fulke Pur. 412. Whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately he is an Heretike 40 Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. We know that Luther did not obstinately and maliciousâ—y erre in any article of faith concerning the substance of Religion Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. Luther Caluine and Bucer shall come with Christ to iudge the world Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Contra What Flaccius or any such as he is hath said Pur. 147. neither do I know neither do I regard let them answere for them selues But whereas you charge M. Caluine c. 41 There is neuer Heresie Ar. 86. but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Therefore onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience Contra Pur. 367. The Church is the stay of trueth If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church might take place it woulde serue you both for a sworde and a buckler The Church saith it and we or they of the first 600. yeres for that néedeth no triall you confesse it your selfe are the Church Therfore it is true 42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians one though the feeblest of an hundred is Pur. 349.367 that their Heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church Contra All other persuasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scripture to trye the faith and doctrine of the Church namely in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes the heresie of the Pelagians Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe in shewing the reason why he argued against the Donatistes of onely Scripture but against the Pelagians of the Churches prayers also The Pelagians graunted them to be of the Church that so prayed And therfore when Augustine had to do with the Donatistes that chalenged the Church vnto them selues he setteth all other trials aside and prouoketh onely to the Scriptures 43 a Pur. 432. We stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures Contra b Ar. 9.5 10 The ground that we haue to persuade vs of the authoritie of gods booke is because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirit for the authoritie of that booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages b Ar. 9.5 10 The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of god from the writings of mem b Ar. 9.5 10 The primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God we allow beleeue c Pur. 364. â—31 Supra ca. 7. pag. 89. Ar. 21.39.42 You should bring a great preiudice against vs and passing well proued for the credite of your cause and the discredite of ours if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure Church for the space of 100. yeres after Christ or some thing out of any Authentical writer which liued within one hundred yeres after the Apostles age Pur. 362. 44 S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. declareth without cooler or couerture the onely right order of ministration Contra in the nexte line I know the Papistes will flie to those wordes of the Apostle The rest I will set in order when I come That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and therefore say we of the order of ministration Pu. 438. 45 The old Doctors neuer heard Purgatory named nor prayer for the dead Contra About S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented Pur. 356. And long afore that also Montanus had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes c. Here cap. 3. pag. 23. And yet againe Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blind error without a head Pur. 54. Pur. 161. 46 In S. Augustines time Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie Contra That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time And specially here cap. 3. pag. 14. saying And this I thinke is the right pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie where he putteth the very last generation of it to haue bene in S. Augustines time and the foundation long afore Christes time Pur. 242.243 47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God excedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor Pur. 236. â—37 Contra Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men geue before their death or bequeath in their Testament because it is a worke of their owne then that almes which other men geue for them howbeit also such almes are auayleable for the dead he saith 48 Here cap. 5. pag. 31. Fulke saith that The auncient Doctors did hold the â—oundation Contra cap. 4. pag. 28. He saith The thyrd Councell of Carthage did define that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost 49 Here cap 8. pag. 127. he sayth that the iust of the old Testament went not to Limbus Patrum after their death but to heauen immediately Contra Pur. 183. The fierie and shaking sword that was set to exclude man from Paradise was taken away by the death of Christ when he opened Paradise yea the Kingdome of Heauen whereof Paradise was but a Sacrament vnto all beleeuers so that the Penitent theefe had passage into Paradise 50 Who so denyeth the authoritie of the holy Scriptures Pur. 214. therby bewraieth him selfe to be an Heretike Contra I say not this here cap. 9. pag. 170. Pur. 218. Ar. 10. that Eusebius was not accompted an Heretike to excuse them that doubt of the Epistle of S. Iames. As Martin Luther and Illyricus for I am persuaded that they are more curious then wise in so doing Loe here are 50. Contradictions and diuers of them more then single ones Yet doe I find in him many others besides these which I omit for breuities sake and because these may suffice to shew what a writer he is and what a Religion it is that agréeth no better he
a fourefolde offer is made vnto him ¶ Chapter 8. To shew his vanitie in his forsaid rigorous exacting of playne Scriptures and great promises to bring playne Scripture conferring place with place so euidently All the Scriptures that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Concerning the question of Onely Scripture The second part Concerning the question of the Church 1. Indefinitely Whether the whole Church may erre Whether she may be diuorced Whether she it is that should prepare the way to Antichrist Whether she be alwayes a base companie Whether it be alwayes inuisible yea or so much as then when Antichrist commeth 2. Namely of their Church and of ours Certaine places cōferred diligently together concerning the Defection and Antichrist The third part Concerning the question of Purgatorie 1. Ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè that is by the Scriptures authoritie negatiuely 2. Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmitiuè First about certaine foundations of Purgatorie and prayer for the dead The distinction of veniall and mortall sinne Whether after sinne remitted paine may remaine Whether Purgatorie follow thereupon Whether in Christ the workes of one may helpe another His cōmon argument of the omnisufficiencie of Christs passiō It is omnisufficient ergo it worketh alwayes to the full It is omnisufficient ergo nothing worketh with it Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe prayer for the dead Whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Or at the least since Christes comming Whether the Iudgement may stand with Purgatorie Whether faith hope and Gods will The fourth part Concerning all other questions that he mentioneth About Good workes 1. In generall Whether they do iustifie Whether we haue Freewill 2. In speciall Of prayer Prayer to Saintes Of Fasting About the Sacramentes 1. In generall Whether they be but two Whether they do confer grace 2. In speciall Baptisme the necessitie and effect of it Eucharist Real presence Transubstantiation Mariage of Votaries Of Bishops Priests and Deacons ¶ Chapter 9. To defend that the Doctors as they be confessed to be ours in very many pointes so they be ours in all pointes and the Protestantes in no point All the Doctors sayings that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Of his Doctors generally 1. His chalenging wordes 2. A generall answer to his challenge declaring that we neede not to answer his Doctors particularly 3. I ioyne with him neuerthelesse particularly The second part Of his Doctors particularly First whether they expound any Scripture against vs. 1. About Antichrist and Babylon 2. About Onely faith 3. About Purgatorie Touching Scripture expounded against it Touching Scriptures for it Whether they say no Scripture to make for it Of certaine perticular textes Secondly whether they geue any other kinde of testimonie against vs. 1. About the Bookes of Machabees Whether somewhat also of other controuersed Scriptures specially 2. About Onely Scripture Where of S. Augustine threefoldly alleaged 3. About certaine Traditions 4. About the Mariage of Votaries 5. About the Real presence And Transubstantiation 6. About the Sacrament of penance Absolution Temporall debt remaining after Absolution Satisfaction Pardons 7. Of Purgatorie Of the Canonicall Memento of oblations and of Sacrifice for the dead practised by the Church Of particular Doctors VVhether S. Augustine doubted of Purgatorie Or denied it Other Doctors about praying for the dead Whether it be onely for Veniall sinnes 8. Of Limbus patrum ¶ Chapter 10. That notwithstanding al which he hath said against D. Allens Articles in his first booke beeing of that matter or also in his other of Purgatorie Euery one of my 51. Demaundes and therefore also euery one of my Motiues likewise euery one of those Articles stādeth in his force euery one I say and much more all of thē to make any man to be a Catholike and not a Protestant 1 Collatio Carthaginensis touching the Church of the Scriptures 2 Building of the Church amid persecution 3 Going out of the Church 4 Rising after the beginning of the Church 5 Cōtradicted of the Church 6 This name Catholikes 7 This name Heretikes 8 This name Protestantes 9 Cōuersion of heathē Natiōs 11 Our Britannie 10.12 Miracles Visions 13.15 Honor of Crosses and Saintes 14.16 Vertue of Crosses and Saintes 17 Exorcismes 18 Destroying of Idolatrie 19 Kings and Emperours 20 In all persecutions 21 Churches 22 Seruice 23 Apish imitation 24 Priesthood and Sacrifice 25 Monkes 26 Fathers 27 Councels 28 See Apostolike 29 Traditions 30 Their owne Doctors 31 Vniuersalitie 32 Antiquitie 33 Consent 34 Authoritie 35 Vnitie 36 Owners and kepers of the Scriptures 37 Stoare house of all truth 38 Old Heresies 39 In old Heretikes Onely 40 They neuer afore now 41 Studying al truth 42 Vnsent 43 Succession 44 Apostolike Church 45 Chaunging 46 Our Auncetors saued theirs damned 47 Communion of Saintes 48 By their fruites 49 All enimies 50 Sure to continue 51 Apostasie ¶ Chapter 11. What grosse contradictions Fulke is fayne to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof ¶ Chapter 12. A Nosegay of certayne strange flowers piked out of Fulke that they which delight in such a Gardiner may see his handyworke ¶ The .13 Chapter or Conclusion That in his two writings against D. Allen there is yet stuffe ynough to make another Booke as bigge as this to the further discredite of his partie
and they shall see the sonne of man comming in the cloudes of heauen with passing power and maiestie He exhorteth also there to the flight spoken of in the Apocalipse Cum ergo videritis Abominationem desolationis quae dicta est a Daniele propheta stanteÌ„ in loco sancto The consummation being now come you shall see the Abomination of desolation which was spoken of by Daniel the Prophet standing in the holy place vbi non debet where alas it should not Mar. 13. And afore that time Videte ne turbemini Looke that you be not disquieted But when you sée this tunc qui in Iudaea sunt fugeant ad montes Then to preuent the horrible persecution imminent let all sortes of good people flee and with all hast flée not standing to consult but renouncing at once all that they haue and committing them selues roundly and wholly to the helpe of God from aboue Which the Elect then shall do with all alacritie euen as willing to be martyred as the Dragon and Antichrist shall be to martyr theÌ„ And that is it that the Apocalypse hath in these words And the earth the elect ouer al the world did helpe the woman when the Serpent did poure out of his mouth after her now fleing into the wildernes water like a flood and the earth opened his mouth and supped vp the flood Abhomination The Abhomination of Desolation standing in the Holy place and that to be séene so vniuersally whiche is here giuen for the watchworde to the woman to flée in suche maner the same of S. Paule is said to be Antichrist him selfe so proude aboue all measure 2. Thes 2. Ita vt in templo Dei sedeat That he will sitte in the temple of God setting out him selfe as if he were God To know what Daniel meaneth by Desolation of the Temple Desolation we must looke in him Pa. 11. 12. what occupied the temple dayly before and we finde it to be called of him Inge Sacrificium The continuall Sacrifice By the which S. Paule also prophecied 1. Cor. 11. that we should announce our Lordes death Hippo. Martyr â—rat de Antich Consumma mundi Hier in Da. xij Donec veniat Vntill his comming And the auncient Fathers do say therevpon accordingly The preciouse body and bloud of Christ non extabit shall not be extant to be openly séene in those dayes of Antichrist The Liturgie or Masse shall be extinguished The Psalmodie of the Canonicall houres shall cease So then the taking away of this dayly Sacrifice out of all Churches is the Desolation And the Abhomination sette there in steade thereof is that man of Sinne that sonne of perdition Antichrist him selfe partly in his owne person partly in his Image whereof the Apocalypse speaketh Apo. 13.14.16.19 as it doth also of his Characters or Markes both in mens handes and in their foreheades And for the time when this shall be Daniel agréeth with the Gospell and Apocalypse for he saith And from the time when the dayly Sacrifice shall be taken away and the Abhomination set vp for Desolation dayes 1290. Blessed is he that exspecteth and commeth to dayes 1335. Likewise S. Paule agréeth vpon the same time Mat. 24. For as the Apostles would learne of our Lorde a signe of his comming and of the consummation of the world so the Thessalonians likewise being troubled 2. Thes 2. quasi instet dies Domini As though the day of our Lorde had then bene instant the Apostle teacheth them the contrarie and saith Nequis vos seducat vllo modo Let not any seduce you in any case for Antichrist must first be reuealed and then in déede the day of our Lorde is instant for our Lorde Iesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth so easily him that séemeth so mightie and will make frustrate all his procéedings by the manifestation of his owne comming Another thing also he there nameth Defection which must be afore our Lords coÌ„ming be instant saying Nisi venerit discessio primum That same Apostasie must come before Which thing he so distinguisheth from the other thing that is from the reuelation of Antichrist that for this he remembreth them of a certaine token thereof which he had more playnly tolde them as also al the rest by word of mouth and it is commonly taken to be the vtter abolishing of the Romane Emperour Donec de medio fiat qui tenet nunc tunc And then shall be reuealed that impious man But to the comming of the Apostasie he giueth not that token signifying that although it also shall be at the instant of our Lordes comming yet neuerthelesse while the Romaine Emperour is in a sorte remayning Whether Antichrist or the Apostasie agree to the Protestantes So that by the time it is euident that neither Antichrist Antichrist and the Protestante nor the Apostasie agréeth to Bonifacius the third neither do I saye that Antichrist agréeth to Luther or Caluin or any other of you He shall be another maner of felow Iwis also the time of his raigne in persecution iumpe thrée yeres and a halfe according to the foresaid Scriptures Howbeit this is certayne that you amongst you haue done Antichrist most notable and worthy seruice to make the fooles that heare you not think of his comming nor to thinke that he shall be One certayne person Si patrem f. Beelzebub vocauerunt quanto magis domemesticos eius as the Scripture is euident but rather take Christes Vicar and so many his Vicares to be the man that so when he coÌ„meth he may go away withall more smoothly Yet the Elect will be we know better aduised But this I will boldly say The Apostasie and the Protestantes that your Heresie is so like to the foresaid Apostasie that but for one place in the Apocalipse I would boldly pronounce with my Mother and Mystresse the Churches leaue that it is euen the selfe same The place is in the first Vae Apoc. 8.9.10.11 vnder the first Angell trumpeter For the second Vae vnder the sixt Angel is playnly of Antichrist And the third or last Vae vnder the seuenth and last Angell is playnly of Domesday Therefore the first vae must be the next thing immediatly before Antichrist And it is of marueilous Locustes by a certayne falling starre let out of hell Apo. .9 Locusies Their king is the Angell of hell called in Hebrew Abaddon in Greeke Apollyon in Latin Exterminans in English Destroyer Their power is not to kill the faithful but to torment them fiue monethes yet that in so miserable a maner that they shall desire rather to be killed All this more in that place Now the time of their persecution commeth to short of yours Also the vniuersalitie item the vehemencie thereof ouerreacheth yours though your will be as good as theirs as by Elmers Rackes some Catholikes haue had experience But otherwise manifold
passing similitude betwene you them in the smoke in the horses in the whole Anatomie of the Locustes and aboue all in the like destroying and sacrilegious wast of Gods Churches and their sacred vessell and holy ornamentes which they shall make in all places as vnto you is permitted of God onely in some places The desolation The like is séene in the Desolation made by you to be made hereafter by Antichrist him selfe it is euen al one and the same but that he shall do vniuersally that which you may not doe but here there he in all the Churches of the world casting out the holy Sacrifice of the Masse with all diuine seruice therevnto belonging as you haue done in all the Churches of Englande and wheresoeuer els you are permitted to set Sedem Satanae your Satanicall seate As he also shall in place of the foresaid dayly Sacrifice bring in his Abomination Abhomination euen him selfe and his Image to be in all Churches adored aboue all Diuinitie O most abhominable desolation So haue you likewise not only made desolation of the Sacrifice but also in stead therof set vp euery where your abhomination of Luthers Caluines inuention the Images also of kings armes in the very place of the most swéete and most glorious Roode yea the Image of a vile Grashopper in a Church that is well knowen in the very place where afore did stande Gods Crucifixe I say not that this is the very selfe Abomination of Antichrist but I say and I say boldly that none other of the olde figures thereof was euer more liuely more nigh more like vnto it not the Idols or Statuees of Iupiter set vp in the Temple by Antiochus in the vmbraticall desolation of that time béeing the time of the Machabées nor the like of certaine Romane Emperours in the vmbratical desolation of their time nor any thing in the sundry vmbraticall desolations by diuerse heresies which S. Basil and other of the holy Fathers haue as it were Ieremies lamentation again pitifully recorded You haue I say in this your vmbraticall desolation pricked beyonde them al approching in the very kind of desolation so much nearer then any to the desolation of Antichrist as you do in time so ioyntly so identically that you haue represented vnto vs a plaine example how a thing it selfe may be a shadow or a figure of the same thing it selfe onely differing in some maner And therefore séeing it hath bene Prophecied that one certayne heresie and that towards the end should so farre pricke beyond all other heresies Apoc. 8. according also to the fourth Trumpet béeing compared with the third that it should be not onely an heresie but also a playne Apostasie whether the same be not this present heresie of yours let the world iudge I do not charge you as you do vs by bare wordes vayne crakes yea and falsifications of the text but I alleage playne Scriptures and I alleage them truly and I conferre diuers places together that one may expoūd another which you are wont to talke so much of but you in talke onely and we in déede Besides much more that I haue if I were the opponent here and not the answerer to proue your Apostasie and that in all the thrée species of Apostasie béeing these Apostasie from Religion Monasticall Apostasie from holy Orders Apostasie from our Christian faith Chalenging you otherwise to ioyne with me vpon my last Demaund in my booke of 51. Demaundes which concerneth your said Apostasie Therfore such being your Newinuented Gospell in this time of the fourth Trumpet no doubt they that embrace the same A Gospell paedagogue to Antichrist wil as readily embrace the next in the time of the fifth Trumpet and againe as readily much more readily embrace Antichrist him selfe in the time of the Churches sixth Trumpet Angelicall For whom and what will not they beléeue which without all proofe yea against so euident Scriptures onely vpon your bold and impudent asseuerations being men so impotent so vnlearned euen in the Scriptures also and so notorious and confessed wicked liuers haue beleued that Christes Vicar and therfore in effect that Christ himselfe is Antichrist that Christes Church the woman clothed with the sunne the new and glorious citie of Hierusalem cōming downe from heauen is the (a) Fulke Ar. 33.38.57.100.102.106 and Pur. 287.298.336.391.409.460 Synagogue of Antichrist the great whore and citie of Babylon No my masters no it wil neuer be Gods elect do to wel know the piller that alwais hath and still must hold them vp in truth euen agaynst the mightie seductions of Antichrist himself of his (b) Apo. 13.16 singular falseprophet and of his thrée lesser and all his other inferiour falseprophetes much more against you And therefore it is not your ignorant and absurd detorting deprauing as the (c) 2. Pet. 3. first of Christes Vicars did tearme it when he gaue vs warning of such felowes of the womans gorgeous garments nor of the seuen hills that can deceiue them no more then the false deprauing of the womans flight whereof I haue already spoken for they know to distinguish the Gorgeous garments vsed always in Gods diuine seruice which your king Abaddon maketh wast and hauocke of The gorgeous garments from the gorgeous prophane garmentes and infinite vayne pompe that the world of the wicked triumpheth in Infra ca. 10 Dema. 21. They know also by the commentarie which the Scripture it selfe maketh what are both the Seuen heades Apo. .17 or Seuen hilles and also the Tenne hornes to wit that they all be kings not the Catholike kings which haue and do so humbly adore our Sion and licke the very dust of her feete knowing that the nation kingdom which serueth not her shal surely perish Esay 49. and 60. but the kings that are with the world against the said Church and people of God So saith the Scripture The seuen heades and hilles The Seauen heades are seuen hilles vpon which the woman sitteth and they are seuen Kings And marke the diuision of them quinque ceciderunt Fiue of them are fallen Who therefore are all the persecuting kings in the time of the Olde Testament before the comming of Christ before the time when this was spoken Vnus est One presently is Who therfore is meant of the Romaine Emperours and al other kings persecuting with them Alius nondum venit c. The other is not yet come and when he commeth he must remayne not a long season as the fiue and as the one but a short season onely thrée yeres and a halfe Who euidently is Antichrist in proper person There haue you playnly the Seuen Now touching the other Tenne this saith the Scripture The ten hornes And the tenne hornes are tenne kings which like as hath bene said of Antichrist haue not yet taken kingdome but they shal take power as kings vna hora post