Pastors in it euer if that were the mysticall body of Christ for Christ appointed such till all meete Edantorigines EcclesiaruÌ„ suaruÌ„ euoluaÌ„t ordinem Episcoporum suorum ita per Successiones ab enitio decurientem vt primus ille Episcopus aâ—qâ—e ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis viris qui tameÌ„ cuÌ„ Apostolis perâ—euerauerint habuerit auctorem antecessoreÌ„ Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae sensus suos deferunt Tert. Praescript c. 32. And you must not aske them for they will shew you none but laie persons Let vs know what Councelles they haue kept and where what Nations they haue conuerted vnto Christ and by whom what Sainctes and Martyrs haue ben among them what Churches they haue erected what Heretickes they haue condemned and where and how and with what Nations and Princes they haue communicated and bring good Euidence to prooue it If this be the true Church conceale her not God is not ashamed of his Church if these people be the companie of holie ones let vs see their actions and good works If there were a continual succession of such men let vs see their monuments otherwise wee haue noe reason to beleeue that there were indeed any such in the tyme betwixt Waldo and our Sauiours ascension which are more then a thousand yeares If you will haue vs beleeue there were such all that tyme bring your proofe Lett vs know I saie and should repeate this question oft least you wittinglie doe forget it where they were from tyme to tyme what they did who were of their communion or tooke notice at least of theÌ„ as frindes or foes what writers they had what Bishops what Councels and this from age to age till you come to the Apostles daies The questioÌ„ is cleere the matter is of fact the thing of moment You haue bene searching these huÌ„dred yeares all papers and libraries and scrowles where is your answeare where is your euidence 6. If this were all donne which will be donne when tyme runnes backward and when euery thing whatsoeuer any minister for a shift can desire or imagine may be fouÌ„d euery where there would remaine yet a further taske and that were to shew that this religion of the Waldenses 2. Book 1. Ch. were vniuersall in regard of place or Nations But I need not vrge further for you are grauelled in the very first If you should offer to name Hus or Wickleffe I would proceed after the same manner with either of them and demaund proofe of their continuall succession euer since our Sauiour Christ did ascend and of their communion with Nations to verifie the Prophecies of the Old Testament and our Sauiours intention in the New and of their agreement with you in all pointes I would demaund euidence of all this of VVickleffe of Hus or of you for theÌ„ and desire to see the face of that Church her Actes and Monumentes her VVriters her Pastors c. And this with great reason before I beleeue it and embrace the communion of it and venture my soule in it because that which I demauÌ„d is hetherto vnknowne not to me onlie but to all the whole world THE SECOND CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen by recourse to our Church 7. THe nakednes of your cause appearing manifestlie thorough the beggarie of the VValdenses you would hide your selues faine in our Church and therefore flinging of that poore shift as vnsufficient you saie next that your succession hath ben continued by vs. But you may not rest heere The thing which wee demaund is a continuall succession of Protestantes that is of men professing the religion now currant in England Bring your euidence that in euery age there were some of these men VVee are not of your religion wee haue openlie condemned it as hereticall in the Councell of Trent and you doe persecute ours in England condemning many pointes of faith which wee beleeue so that if you take vs to continue you to the primitiue Church and to the Apostles this continuation is not Protestant wheras a Protestant continuation is the thing wee demaund Goe not to fast but consider well what heere wee haue in hand I demaund a continuall succession of men of your Religion not of ours you are to giue accompt of your owne predecessors not of mine of Protestants not of Papists You must shewe your owne Cards and not mine if doe meane to winne the game Wee doe frequent the Masse beleeue vnbloodie Sacrifice adore the sacred Hoste pray to Saincts worship Angells beleeue a Purgatorie pray for the deade honoure Images Wee lay open our consciences to our Priests and acknowledge in them power to Absolue vs and a diuine precept obliging vs to Confesse Wee beleeue that our Sauiour doth impart vnto the reconciled power to redeeme by good and penall works the temporall paine due to sinne and that the Church hath power by way of Indulgence to release it Wee beleeue Traditions Merit Iustification by works Obseruation of the commandements and works of Supererogation Vowes and a fuller Canon of the Scripture then you doe In our Hierarchie wee haue Bishops Priests Deacons Subdeacons and others all which in substance you haue not but an outward appearaÌ„ce onely Wee acknowledge in the Pope a superioritie ouer the other Bishops in the Church in Generall approued Councells an Infallibilitie and in each Member of our Communitie an Obligation of conformitie in iudgment to the iudgment and Decrees of these Councells In these and such other things essentiall to our Religion wee are distinct from you and therefore it is childish to name vs for men of your Religion It is true that you pretend to beleeue some things wich wee doe as the Trinitie and Incarnation and some parts of Scripture Neuerthelesse in other things within the compasse of diuine faith and religion wee are distinct as by the premises it doth appeare All Heretiques that euer were beleeued somethings with the Church but that sufficed not to make them of the same Religion with it or among themselues Iewes beleeue somethings which Christians doe so doe the Turkes and the Naturalists who beleeue a God notwithstanding Catholiques Iewes Heretiques Turkes and Naturalists are not ALL of ONE RELIGION Horses and Asses are liuing Creatures but not of the same species with a man Lutherans and Caluinistes are not Catholiques The Pope is no Protestant the Bishops of our Church are not of your communion our Priests are consecrated to say Masse our People beleeue as their Pastors All abhorre your Heresie and detest your Schisme Your Bookes are against our faith your lawes against the exercise of our Religion You accuse vs of Idolatrie Superstition Errour Heresie Name others name YOVR OWNE and a CONTINVALL SVCCESSION of them name not vs. Your Religion in that it is distinct from ours is made vp partly of newe deuised stuffe partly of old ragges left vnto you from the torne coates of Iouinian Donatus Aerius Vide Coll. R. Chalc. c. 23.
by diuine Reuelation that he is in the Church euer teaching all Truth as I haue declared at large and I haue declared also which is the Church of God but wee haue no diuine Reuelation that he is in N. N. in Iohn Caluin Yea wee knowe he is not in him because he contradicts the Spirit in the Church this Church the Fathers had instruction to the iudgment of this communitie the greatest iudgments did euer stoupe Their practise doth so demonstrate Their books for them confesse it still And this is our practise allso this is our resolution wee confesse it wee professe it wee rest in the iudgment of Gods Spirit in the Catholique Church and to this Tribunall be you neuer so vnwilling you must allso come as I haue declared in this booke and here all * Cōtrouersie must be determined Wee doe not flie the Scripture wee haue it wee haue the Reuerence of Antiquitie on our side and reason pleads for vs but here the cause is ended When you do question the reall presence iustification by woorks S. Peeters primacie and alleage Scripture wee do likewise alleage Scripture and so pregnant that you cannot reallie answeare and then alonge wee goe to be iudged by the diuine spirit in the Church where wee are certaine he is and teacheth all truth When you say this or that booke is not Scripture this was or was not receaued in the primitiue Church the sēse of the letter is this or that Wee examine all and then appeale to to the Spirit in the Church where wee are sure he is suggesting all whatsoeuer the Sonne of God hath reuealed and taught to be receaued and beleeued of men When you pretēd that our doctrine is against reason against holy Fathers against Antiquitie wee produce testimonies of auncient Fathers and reason for our side and then submit the cause to the Spirit in the Church which looking on all truth can iudge best what is most conformable to reason to the Fathers to all Antiquitie And when you say that the Councells contradict one another that there are contradictions in the Scripture Wee are satisfied in these points allso by the Spirit in Church as being the highest Iudge of all cōtrouersies of infinite vnderstanding and no lesse infinite veracitie So that all particular Controuersies do runne into this generall Principle to be resolued and this Principle wee haue in plaine termes from the mouth of God THE FIFT CHAPTER Wherein some exceptions are answeared 82. THe obiections which you and your fellowes make are partlie against the infallibilitie of the Catholique Church in it selfe and partlie against the infallibilitie of generall Councells where Bisshops are assembled out of all Countries to determine commonlie by diuine assistance what belongs to faith and what is cōtrarie therevnto Of this second part it being not the whole Church formallie in it selfe whereof I haue intreated hetherto but the whole in representation onelie as deuines tearme it I will speake a word or two hereafter And will answeare that heere which you bring against the first which is the matter wee haue in hand You are to shewe not that some particular man or some part of the Church might fall of and leaue to be part of the Catholique not-erring Church for that wee see cleerelie in your masters Luther Caluin and others which once were Catholiques ād in the Church of Englād which was in the communion of the Church for a thousand yeeres together and by that communiō Catholique as being then part of Gods Church And is now fallen into schisme and Heresie but you must proue that the Catholique Church may erre in faith or to vse your owne termes that all the Church of God may be in errour affirming and beleeuing contrarie to that which is true in faith 83. And first I obserue that if you did vnderstand your owne principles you would dispaire of the successe of your owne arguments because by those principles of yours all that you can say may iustlie be contemned This I demonstrate for you will either prooue this doctrine of the Churches infallibilitie in the sense wherein wee defend it to be an errour fundamentall or to be some other errour not fundamentall The first you cannot pretend without contradicting your selfe presentlie for you saie allso that the Church cannot erre in fundamentalls and that ours in fundamētalls doth not erre granting withall when you are well vrged that ours is the Church and if you should start backe and denie it againe you will finde it vnder double proofe in another place The Second you cannot as much as pretend to prooue and demonstrate in your principles because according to thē you can take no meanes whereof you are certaine not reason for all men may erre in obscure matters nor Fathers for in your principles all might erre nor place of Scripture for you haue no meanes to knowe certainlie that it is the word of God the place not being one of your fundamentalles nor the Spirit because in not fundamentalls he assisteth not as you say and maintaine in this question or if he doth assist in this verie matter whether you call it fundamentall or not fundamentall he doth assist the Church for to the Church is the promise made 84. Thus you very wiselie haue ouer reached your selfe and left your selfe no meanes to prooue any thing against vs either in this controuersie or in any other for fundamentallie you confesse wee haue not erred and in other things by your owne principles you are not certaine Yet to gull the people you bringe texts not fundamentall according to your distinction and cry out Scripture Scripture the Gospell the word of God And if you finde a place in S. Augustine which neither your parishioners nor your selfe doe vnderstand you challenge vs to the Fathers whereas in your conscience you beleeue for certaine neither Fathers nor scripture but onelie some places which you call fundamentall neither do you acknowledge anie meanes in the world either from God or man to be sure of things not fundamentall as you tearme them as I haue shewed before and the same these your protestant arguments which followe would faine prooue 85. The first argument to this end is made against the Church in the state of the old lawe before the cōming of the Messias and therfore is nothing to the purpose because wee speake of the Christian Church as it is established by Iesus Christ and gouerned by his Spirit which Church is not limited vnto one Nation onelie but ouer all the world and therefore Catholique and of this I haue proued and wee do beleeue that in faith it is infallible Notwithstanding to maintaine the infallibilitie of the Iewish Church too before the Messias came which is an other questiō I resolue your doubt made against it You say the people of Israel did adore the brazen calfe therefore the Church all did erre You should haue prooued that all did adore the calfe that Moyses and the Leuites
the most part were spotted with doctrines of freewill merits inuocation of Saincts c. Cal. Inst l. 3. c. 5. §. 10. Caluin It was a custome a thousand and three hundred yeares agoe to pray for the deade veteres omnes c. 4. §. 38. but all of that tyme I confesse were caried away into errour Those things which occurre here and there about satisfaction in the writings of those of ould tymes moue me little I see indeede some of them I will speake plainlie allmost all whose books are extant haue either slipt in this point or spoken to rigourouslie and to harshlie Whitt Cōt 2. q. 5. c. 7. Whittaker wee confesse that some Papisticall errours are auncient and are held and defended by the Fathers this wee do freelie and openlie professe It is true which Caluine Ibid. and the Centurists haue written that the Auncient Church did erre in many things as touching Limbus freewill merite of works c. Ex Patrum erroribus vester ille Pontificiae Religionis cento consutus est id l. 6. con Dur. s 7. Mart. de Vot col 1559. Dud. ap Bez. ep 1. Collat. R. Chal. l. 2. c. 22. The Popish Religion is patched out of the Fathers errours Peeter Martyr As longe as wee stand to the Councells and Fathers wee shall remaine allwayes in the same errours Duditius If that be the truth which the Fathers haue professed with mutuall consent it is alltogether on the Papists side Stay here is enough for my purpose if any man will haue more let him goe to the Conference of my L. of Chalcedon and reade it there 24. Before I make my argument I will note here an effect of this guiltie cōscience of Protestancie which effect is to decline the way of tryall by the Fathers to labour to persuade mē their iudgment is vnsecure Iew. Ap. part 4. p. 117. and in fine to cōtemne them Hence Iewell in his Apologie hath said that the way of finding the truth by God speaking in the Church and Councells is very vncertaine dangerous and and in a manner franticke Rainold in his conference would haue you beleeue that if the Fathers not onelie one or two but All Rainold Conf. c. ◠diu 1. held a point now questioned and not held it onelie but wrote it nor onelie wrote it but allso taught it not darklie but plainlie not seldome but commonlie not for a short season but cōtinuallie This consent of theirs if any such be foūd were vnsecure Thus bouldly he prepares himselfe to encoūter thē all this reckoning he makes of their Antiquitie their Sāctitie their Spirit their consent But will you see how Luther in his Cupps tramples on them Lut. Coll. mēsal c. de Pat Eccl. In the writings of Hierome there is not a word of true faith and sound Religion Of Chrysostome I make no accompt Basil is of no worth he is whollie a Monke I way him not of a haire Patrum authoritas susque de que faciēda est de ser arbit c. 2. fol. 433. Cyprian is a weake Deuine c. And in generall The authoritie of the Fathers is not to be cared for Let vs now to the last argument which I make thus 25. If the Fathers of the first six hundred yeares haue deliuered our doctrine and contradicted Arg. 3 yours so cleerly that your best Schollers and our greatest aduersaries in this quarrell of Religion haue though vnwillinglie yet by force of euidēce directlie cōfessed it then haue you not yet made it cleere that the Church in those tymes did beleeue as you doe and was of the Religion now currant amongst you But the Fathers of those tymes haue deliuered our doctrine and contradicted yours so cleerelie that your best Schollers being allso our greatest aduersaries haue directlie confest it as is declared particularlie and vnansweareablie in the Protestants Apologie in the points of the reall Presence Transubstantiation Sacrifice of the Masse Inuocation of Saincts Prot. Ap. tract 1. Sec. 3. prayer for the deade Sainct Peeters Primacie Confession Satisfaction Absolution from sinnes by the Priest Merit Iustification by good works Images Vowes Reliques Ceremonies vnwritten Traditions c. Therefore you haue not yet made it cleere that the auncient Church did beleeue as you doe ād was of the Religion now currant among you * Do not rūne away cowardly from this argument and busie your self heere in expoūding or obiectīg Fathers as your appealants impertinētly haue donne for this is but to daunce on a round as Mr. Brerely in his aduertisments tould Morton But consider attentiuely what is heere obiected and answere it directly thorough out point by point The thing vrged is the confession of your owne Deuines What do you say to this Confession I do not aske in this place how you do Glosse the Fathers or what is your opiniō No. But I demand what you say to the Confessiō of your fellowes ād how you do answere the argumēt heere drawne from the said Confession I sawe Mortōs Booke once and when I lookt next into the Prot. Apol. I found Mr. Brereleys discourse to be so full and so far to ouerreach Mortōs answere that it was argument and replie both in one and still will be So that indeed you are so farre frō hauing the better in that part of the question which your answeare doth suppose that your side is infinitely preiudiced and vnpossible that you should euer come to equall termes much more vnpossible is it that you should euer in the consistorie of Reason and Equitie gaine the cause Why then do you perswade vs to followe you before you make it cleere or credible to learned men that you goe right that you goe the same way which the primitiue Church did goe their Posterity which did immediatly follow them tell vs that they went our way not yours the same all Christian Churches euer since for nine hundred years do witnesse the same your owne doctors do confesse and why then must not wee follow there is no right way but one no faith true but one no Catholique Church but one And now I resume the reason often vrged heretofore which the further it goes the more strength it gettes and thus I argue That Religion which neuer had the communion of the Christian world is not Catholique or vniuersall but the Religion now currant in England neuer had the communion of the Christian world for since Luther it was neuer the Religiō of the Christian world nor in the tyme of the primitiue Church nor in the later nine hundred yeers therefore it is not Catholique THE FOVRTH CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen by pretense of Scripture 26. THe last shift wherevnto in fine you betake your selfe is to leaue Antiquitie ād to be tryed by the word or Scripture onely And here too you are so nice that you will admit a part onely of Scripture and scarce knowe what your owne selues But of this hereafter
hunted after in the former booke but could not get tidings of in all the world before Luther I in the meane tyme will on further to looke out this Church of God But first I would haue you to note that as in the naturall bodie there are many superfluous materiall parts of flesh fatte and some other eauen in the hands eares and eies as you see in men that are grosse which parts though they be coherent now are not resumed all in the resurrection because they would extēd and increase the bodie vnto more then the iust bignes of the man and beyond the originall proportion of the soule So in this mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ are many parts which will not rise with it vnto glorie and therfore are multiplied aboue the number which is written in the booke of life yet being called as many are called fewe chosen for a tyme they doe beleeue but they fall againe before they die Another thing you may note if you please that as the naturall bodie receauing the sowle when the principall parts are prepared doth growe and flourish and afterwards looseth againe the exteriour beautie in ould age So the Church receaued the Spirit when by the instruction of the sonne of God the chiefe parts the Apostles were prepared and then did extend it selfe in bignes and flourished but in her ould age in the daies of Antichrist she will loose her exteriour beautie and maiestie and be greeuouslie afflicted and persecuted for a * The Church in the tyme of her extreame persecution will be visible for persecution it selfe is an euident argument of visibility as in England you see At the same tyme she will be allso Catholique and spred ouer the earth as S. Iohn telleth in the twentith Chapter of his reuelation where of the persecutors he saith they ascended vpon the breadth of the earth and compassed the campe of the saincts and the beloued cittie Vpon which words cleere enough in themselues S. Augustine in his bookes De cluitate Dei writeth thus They are not said to come into one place as though the campe of the Saincts or the beloued Cittie should be in some one place since this indeed is nothing but the Church of Christ spred ouer the whole world And therefore wheresoeuer this Church shall be then which shall be in all Nations for so much is insinuated by the latitude of the earth there shall be Gods beloued Cittie there shall she be beseiged by all her enimies for they allso shall be in all Nations with her So he li. 20. c. 11. Moreouer that extreme persecution of Antichrist shall be very short as enduring some three yeeres and a halfe which the Scripture allso hath declared He Antichrist shall thinke that he can change tymes and lawes and they shall be deliuered into his hāds euē to a tyme tymes ād halfe a tyme. Dan 7.25 Power was giuen to it the Beast to worke two ād fortie monethes Ap. 13.5 They shall tread vnder foote the holy Cittie two and fortie monthes Ap. 11.2 From the tyme when the Continuall Sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination shall be set vp 1290. Dayes Dan. 12.11 See allso Ap. 12. v. 6. 14. tyme as S. Iohn doth foretell But now to finde this Church THE SECOND CHAPTER The Catholique Church assigned 11. HAuing seene the picture of the Catholique Church as in Scripture it hath beene drawne by God himselfe it is not hard for him that will cast an eie vpon the world and compare this picture with the communities he finds there to discouer among all Churches and congregations which is the Catholique or to learne it if he will but aske the question of any man For all S. Aug. de vera relig c 7. and euen Heretiques ād Schismatiques as S. Augustine longe agoe did obserue when they talke not with those of their owne sect but with others do whether they will or no call no other Catholique but the Catholicke because they cannot otherwise be vnderstood vnles they designe her by that name which the whole world calles her by Men generally being demaunded which are Catholiques point at vs and being asked which Church is the Catholique do direct vnto that which is in cōmunion with the Roman See This was knowne to be the Catholique Church in the tyme of S. Paul this was acknowledged to be the Catholique Church in the tyme of S. Augugustine and S. Gregory and euer since and is now Aske all Christians such only excepted as your selues condemne for heretiques and they will tell you so Aske Iewes and Pagans and they will tell you this is the Church of Iesus Christ aske your fellowes White Cowell and such others and they will send you to this 12. If a man should haue come to Luther when he did looke round about for companie and found none of his opinion and should haue said vnto him Sir Luther in the Bible there is an ample description of a perperuall Catholique Church I pray you which is it that I may be Christian in communion of that Church Your Doctor for his hart could haue directed to no other then to that Congregation which then was in communion with the Bysshop of Rome For to you he could not haue directed him because poore men you were not in the world as yet with your Religion nor euer deserued the name of Catholique as in the former booke to your confusion hath beene seene To haue said that he a sole man was the Catholique Church which the Scripture speakes of had bene to multiplie himselfe ouer the world into many Nations and into millions of men at once To the Iewes or Pagans he could with no face haue sent him and had he done so they would haue giuen him the lie It rests therefore that Luther and so Caluin so Iewell must haue directed him to vs and haue tould him the Catholique Church is that which hath and still had communion with the Roman See 13. I knowe some of your fellowes would send a man to the Grecians and some further to the Aethiopians but these are not Protestants as the Grecians declare them selues and by the Aethiopians doctrine he may see that is not blind Neither hath the Grecian beleefe in those things wherein they differ from the Church of Rome euer bene in the generall communion of the Christian world and therefore Grecisme is not nor euer was Catholique and the same it is of Aethiopians and all others Another shift you haue and this is to say the Catholique Church is inuisible among the Romans the Grecians Aethiopians Germans and others but lies hid This would trouble the man surely for how should he be instructed by her and imbrace her communion vnles he could find her and how should he finde her if she did not appeare but were inuisible moreouer he would say that the Church which the Scripture hath described is there also declared to be perpetually visible with gates euer open the
a part and distinct that such as reade our papers may knowe when one matter is ended or agreed vppon and doe not thrust other things in heere If you graunt it Saie so If you doe not speake directlie to this point in this place and of no other I will not heare of erring or not erring in fundamentalls or not fundamentalls I haue nothing to doe with that It shall haue a place a part I looke onelie which is the Church answearing to the description whether it be subiect to errour in any thing or be not whether it doth erre actuallie or euer hath actuallie bene in errour I meddle not here with that The thing described in Prophecie the substance of the thing the Church I looke for and haue found her by her proportion by her face it is not yours it is ours THE SEVENTH CHAPTER Wherin answeare is giuen to some exceptions made against the Vniuersalitie of the Church THe Arguments which you and your abotters make against the foresaid vniuersality of the Church S. Aug. de Vnit. Eccl. c. 12. are answeared easily And whereas first as Donatists heretofore did allso you plead for your pouertie ād paucitie of adherentes that there are fewe chozen and the world full of fooles I confesse there are to many fooles indeede and haue bene euer if you consider the whole collection of all kinde of Heretickes together with Paganes and Atheistes the number whereof being infinite the world may be said to be full But what is this to the purpose since the Catholique Church notwithstanding spreds it selfe into all Natiōs ād makes some of euery nation and those verie many also wise many being called by the Pastors by the Apostles by God to Christianitie frō all natiōs amōg which many though they receaue the word and for a tyme doe well doe flinch in tyme of temptation and fall of before the end and so they be fooles too and with the foolish virgines be shut out of heauē But yet notwithstanding all this there are in the Catholique Church some wise of all nations tongues and people more then can be numbred which infalliblie will gaine the crowne of glorie 56. An other exception you make against our Church because it doth not cōmunicate with all Christians as with your cōgregation for exāple Whereunto I answeare that to the Churches vniuersalitie communion with Heretickes ād Schismatiques is not necessarie but cōmunion with or in all Natiōs and this communion the Romā Church with the rest adherent hath With Heretiques wee will not communicate and doe herein follow the instruction of our Sauiour and Sainct Paule And accordīglie the Church in former tymes would not communicate with Arians Eunomians Nestorians or with Armenians Greciās Aethiopiās or others at such tyme as they were in errour Neither was this communion necessarie to the vniuersalitie of the Church as I said before because it is not necessarie that it communicate with all persones in the world but with all Nations Nor it is necessarie that the Churches communion be at once in all nations and so continue but that in the compasse of her tyme it be in all And thus is our Religion Catholique which hath bene in all Nations one tyme or other that hetherto haue bene Christian which can be truelie said of noe other and by her great power of conuerting Nations is going on to possesse the rest of the Nations that are on earth 56. Thirdly you except against the generalitie of some Councelles wherūto the Greeke Church then deuided would not come But this is noe hindrance to the cause for to the generalitie of a Councell noe more can be required possiblie for persones them the presence and consent of the Bysshopes in communion with the Catholique Church since Catholique Pastors not heretiques are to be heard followed and obaied in matters of faith and religion These doe succeed in the promise made to the Apostles and their successors to the worldes end and in them is the whole teaching authoritie of the Church-present vnto the tyme wherin they are whether they be more or not so many as were some age before In particular to that of the Grecians I answeare that their cōsent was not necessarie to the generalitie of the Coūcelles held in the tyme they liued in Schisme and Heresie and therefore without them the Councell was Oecumenicall for that Councell is Oecumenicall which doth include the authoritie of the presēt Catholique Church It is not requisite that all Bisshops which euer were should be raised againe to life to sitt in Councell nor that such as in after ages are to come should be borne afore their tyme to make a Councell generall neither is it necessarie to call in Heretiques of all sortes It is sufficiēt to call the Bysshopes of the Catholique communion then liuinge when the Councell is to be held The Grecians in the tyme of their Schisme were not of your religion as you haue heard from their owne mouthes when you offered vnion and in your owne iudgment they held heresie as that is of the procession of the holie Ghost from the Father onelie They returned also to the communion of the Catholique Church as you may see in the Councell of Lions and Florence where East and west agreed in doctrine against your heresie and before their Schisme they had bene in the communion of the Church a thousand yeares wel neere Of Indians and Armenians you know by this what I will saie and it is not necessarie to runne ouer the same againe 57. A fourth exception is that all nations be not at one time in the Church because some are Pagā some Hereticke And hence would you make a mā haue a scruple in reciting that part of his Creed wherin he doth professe to beleeue the Catholique Church then existent when he saies his Creede Notwithstanding this obiectiō the Creed was said in the Apostles tyme by such as were in their visible cōmunion and must and will be said as long as the world endures and he that saieth it if he beleeues Gods word and promise may securely ād must beleeue that still there is a Catholique Church which Church hath communion with all Natiōs though this communion in all the latitude be not existent at that tyme but some was before some is to follow after as the Church it selfe taken whollie is not existent all at one tyme but successiuelie to the worldes end it being the collectiō of all Catholiques which euer were are ād will be Orbis miratus est se fact◠esse Arianum Dial. con Lucif 58. A fift is made out of an exaggeration of Sainct Ieromes To the ground and occasion of the speach which was the act of the Bishops in the Councell I might āswer as S. Au. doth to the like ob made out of some words of S. Hilarius Quis nescit ilio tempore obscuris verbis multos parui sensus fuisse delusos vt putarent hoc credi ab Arianis
quod etiam ipsi credebant alios autem timore cessissè simulatè consensisse Aug. Ep. 48. See Baronius as the yeare 359. about the Councell of Ariminium which approued the Nicene faith and cōdemned Vrsatius Valens c. Afterwardes happened that which S. Ierom speaketh of when the Councell was neither f◠nor approued and all Catholikes in the world admit that such a Councell might 〈◊〉 of Ariminium neuer approued by the See Apostolike nor euer acknowledged for lawfull by the Church and by your selues also reiected I answeare that there was noe cause of feare that the Church should by that acte be all deceaued and erre in faith for the Church hath alwayes the assistance of the holie Ghost to preserue her from errour in faith by couenant of God the Father and promise of God the sonne as in the next booke you shall heare at large Neither wanted there at any tyme learned men who knew that a Councell wanting the consent of the See Apostolique was not Oecumenical properlie nor an infallible rule of faith 58. If you plead against the visibilitie of our Church with this obiectiō it is weake for the Arians euer found opponēts and those visible such as at last wonne the field If you plead with it against the vniuersalitie of the Church it is also weake and impertinent it is impertinent as it comes from you because those Arians were not Protestantes and therfore their number makes nothing for the vniuersalitie of your cause And it is also weake because their communion was neuer with all Nations nor did euer equall the vniuersalitie of the Church Which is euident because the Catholique communion was elder by three hunderd yeares and was in that tyme spred ouer all Christendome and hath continued after Arianisme is gone these many hundred yeeres in the communion of the Christian world and more Natiōs haue bene since conuerted to it and are dailie and so will be till she hath bene in the communion of them all If therfore you will measure both take each communion in her greatest latitude of tyme and place or Nations and you will presentlie see Arianisme to be too narrowe and too short as not hauing possessed so many Nations nor dured so longe a tyme. Much lesse will you find that begining the same tyme it ranne side by side in an equall or a fuller streame through all ages to this daie and were so to continue if you intended this I should suspect your braine 59. Touching the comparison of it to that part of the Church at least which was at that tyme you thinke it so filled all places of the Christian world that Catholiques had noe roome This errour is of ignorance you may amend it if you inquire of some who did liue then If I should bring many testimonies you would saie I were tedious in matter of historie and therfore will content my selfe and you also if you be reasonable with one from many Authors S. Athanasius a man beyond exception together with diuers Bysshopes of Aegypt Thebais and Libia wrote to Iouiā the Emperour of the Nicene faith thus Know certainely ap Theodoret l. 4. c. 3. most holie Emperour that this same faith hath bene published from all memorie of ages this the holie fathers assembled at Nice haue confirmed to this haue assented all Churches euerie where as of Spaine of Britanie of France of all Italie of Dalmatia of Mysia of Macedonia and all Greece and all the Churches of Africke Sardinia Cyprus Creete Pāphilia Lycia Isauria and the Churches of Aegypt Lybia Pontus Cappadocia and the Churches of the bordering countryes and finallie the Churches of the east some fewe excepted which doe fauour the Arian sect for wee doe certainelie know the sentence of them all and haue receaued letters from them and doe know certainlie most holie Emperour that although a fewe doe contradict this faith the whole world cannot suffer preiudice therby 60. Sixtly you oppose vnto vs want of vnitie I answeare that all Catholiques doe submit their vnderstandings to the iugment of the Church and to the generall decrees of their Pastores and masters readie to beleeue whatsoeuer they generallie in Councells doe define and to reiect whatsoeuer they condemne and by these meanes are vnited perfectlie vnto those Councelles and to the whole Church in faith and iudgment about religion each man in the Church hauing his vnderstanding vndeuided in beleefe from the Church and so being one with it Vnitie consisting in Indiuision as you haue learned of the philosopher lōge agoe Our Councelles likewise are one in doctrine as the partes of Scriptures are though they be not Scripture but declarations of Gods word that is they are vndiuided there being amōgst thē all noe opposition or dissent in decrees and definitiōs ād the later receauing what hath bene formerlie defined wherof hereafter I will discourse a part because as Iulian Porphyrie and others thought they sawe cōtradictions in the Scripture so you haue imagined the like of Coūcelles though nothing so many nor haueing that shew as those had which by the foresaid infidelles were obiected and if you know not so much you are not of that reading your frindes haue taken you to be To your argumente I saie therfore that this companie hath vnitie in beleefe noe man at all in the companie being diuided from the rest in beleefe howsoeuer about thinges vndefinied and vndetermined by the Church in their tyme there might be diuersitie of opinions ād may be now in the like as he knowes that hath bene a weeke in the Schooles of deuinitie The same companie hath originallie likewise vnitie in religion and faith each vnderstanding in the whole mysticall bodie being submitted to the same iudge of cōtrouersies that is to Gods Spiritte in the Church Catholique and acknowledging this one Spiritte and this one Church and this one Spiritte in this one Church iudging defininge determining ruling all VVhich common vnion and consent in one makes their communion so generall so firme and so conspicuous as you are faine to see with your eies against your will 61. A seuenth argument is made against succession and it is obiected that wee haue noe succession of Catholiques or of such as wee are I answeare that the Catholique religion and Church is that whose communion is with all Nations as you haue heard and a Catholicke is a man who doth resolue his faith into this Church and into the Spiritte which doth assist and teach it such were all who did receaue the Generall Councelles before spoken of and the doctrine of the Church present to the tymes wherein they liued which were infinite and such will be to the worldes end If you will haue some assigned more particularly that you may dispute against them I name whole assemblies of pastors in Generall Councell I name the Generall Councells mentioned heretofore In them was our Succession and the Catholique Church in them was conspicuous and worlds of people did communicate with
in the Primitiue Church neither be they all saincts at this day Many are called fewe chosen Good ād bad are mingled here The spouse is blacke ād faire In the Churches decrees there is no errour against faith no rule against manners Her rule is irreprehensible being the rule of Christianitie And when any thing is amisse in mens cariage or behauiour towards God or man she doth admonish and punish as occasion requires Hence haue come all those decrees of reformation made in Councells generall and particular which you haue seene more then once In an infinite number to haue some disorders is incident and wee were foretould that scandalls should be Mat. 18. But consider further that this Church hath an infinite cōpanie of holie men likewise and that all which arriue to glorie shall haue liued in this Church Apoc. 7. and those of all tribes tongues and Nations For this very Church though not according to all the materiall parts shall triumphe as I haue said in an other place and in state of triumphe shall be all faire and all ouer without spot she shall be without actuall or originall or veniall sinne when she comes with open eies to looke the prime veritie in the face and to embrace the diuine goodnes with all the latitude of her soule THE SIXT CHAPTER Of the Protestant multiplication of Churches by visible and inuisible 68. IN this place before I conclude I haue a word more to say about your distinction of visible and inuisible I thought once to make it a Chapter in the first booke one of your greate leaps when you are pursued ending in it From Luthers Schoole you skip into Waldoes from thence you thrust your selues on vs from vs to the Church primitiue and from the primitiue Church you get quite out of the eies of the whole world and betake your selues to Inuisibilitie In regard I there pursued you I thought I say to speake allso of the distinction there But the thinge will be more easie now because in many places as occasions were offered I haue discoused of the * He that desires to see more of the Visibilitie of the Church shall find it exactly handled and the Protestant euasions all cleerely refuted by L. my of Chalc. in his booke de auctorae essentia Protestantica Ecclesia l. 2. c. 6. seqq Visibilitie of Gods Church The Church of Gods is one and visible as the Scripture doth witnes Yet you with two words visible and inuisible haue made a distinction to rend it into two and do maintaine stoutlie that God hath two Churches one inuisible consisting of predestinate persons onelie The other visible which doth exteriorlie professe the faith 99. The whole companie of the faith full may be deuided into two parts by God allmightie the one part is predestinate the other part is the companie of those which are not predestinate By this the whole is sufficientlie deuided for euerie man in the companie belongs to one part or member of the diuision and no man belongs to both For you cannot affirme two contradictories of the same as to say Peeter is predestinated and Peeter is not predestinated This being so I demaund now which of these companies is visible and which inuisible And what makes the one to be so rather then the other If predestination make men inuisible whie doth not reprobation make men inuisible since reprobation is a secret as hard to knowe If profession of the faith make the reprobate visible whie can not profession make the predestinate men visible And if these companies be together mingled why are they not both visible or both inuisible or rather whie is not the whole companie visible by reason of the profession and communion though Gods disposition towards this and that man in particular be inuisible and secret 100. Wee beleeue that the whole companie of Catholiques is the Church as I haue declared larglie heretofore Wee beleeue that the predestinate are in this companie that they die all of them in the communion of the Church and that here they professe their faith This I will declare brieflie and then I will be so bould as to demand some questions touching your inuisible congregatiō for looke on it I may not because it is not to be seene 101. First therefore if the thing be well considered it is manifest that the predestinate doe professe their faith and thereby do manifest themselues to be the seruants of Iesus Christ and this allso our Sauiour Christ requireth of his seruants Matth. 10.32.33 euery one that shall confesse me before men I allso will confesse him before my father but he that shall denie me before men I will denie him before my father which is in heauen Euerie one that confesseth me before men the sonne of man allso will confesse him before the Angells of God Luke 12. v. 8.9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the Angells of God Herevpon the Martyrs of Iesus Christ which haue bene at all tymes and whereof all Christian Nations haue yeelded store haue openlie in the face of persecution made profession of their faith and thereby they were visible and being Martyrs were allso members of the predestinated Church they were predestinate The predestinate therefore and the visible professors of the faith may be in one and the same Church yea the same man may be predestinate and allso visiblie professe the faith 102. Secondlie it is manifest that the Apostles were visible professors of the faith and therefore members of the visible Church of God and they were allso predestinate and therefore mēbers of the predestinate Church The same men therefore may be visible and predestinate The same Church may be visible and predestinate and consequentlie visibilitie and predestinatiō deuide not the Church into two Churches As I said of the Apostles and Martyrs so I say of the holie Doctors of the Church they did preach and teach visiblie they were knowne farre and neere and were ptedestinate allso whereby it is manifest that the predestinate did professe their faith the same faith with other Catholiques with others in their communion and were visible 103. Thirdlie the Apostolique Church is visible it includes essentiallie publique persons As Apostles and their Successors Apostolicall men for conuersion of Nations Bisshops Pastors Doctors as you knowe by Scripture Now these publike persons are manifestlie visible Pastors to their flocke Bisshops to their Diocese Apostles and Apostolicall men to the Nations they conuert The Apostolicall Chutch therefore is visible And you knowe further that the holie Catholique and Apostolicall Church are one and the same for so it is in the Creede I beleeue one holie Catholique and Apostolicall Church Symb. Cōstant and this Creede you professe that you beleeue ād you put it allso amonge the fundamentalls of your faith The Catholik therefore and holy Church is visible 104. Fourthlie if the Church be the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ and
of their visibilitie But God as I said hath not yet permitted the booke of life to be coppied out and diuulged Iohn 4.23 1. Io. 2.27 109. You obiect first that true worshippers adore in Spirit and truth and vnction teacheth all This is true But those worshippers those ānointed are in the Church they are a part ād the chiefest part of the visible communitie whereof I haue spoken in the second booke they are in the visible fold of Christ Were the Apostles and the rest of their Religion the true Church or no were they was that Bodie that communitie visible or inuisible their sermons were not they heard were not their writings seene went not their sound ouer all the world why then they were visible As for the vnctiō it teacheth the Catholique Church it teacheth men to giue assent to such things as the Apostles then did and their Successors now doe propose They may preach and be heard allso but without vnction the people will not beleeue 1. Cor. 3. Paul planteth and Apollo watereth but God giueth the increase In the same Catholique Church are those adorers in Spirit and in the middest of it the sanctification of God is foreuer The Apostles did they adore in Spirit or no if they did whie may not a visible Church do so if they did not who will beleeue that you do 110. Secondlie you obiect that there are none in the Church but predestinate If you speake of the Church triumphant you say true if you speake of the militant Church it is not so for all those that for a tyme adhere vnto this bodie and are parts of it do not finallie perseuere some are multiplied aboue number and beleeue a while but reuolt and fall of before they die The Church militant is the companie of beleeuers in communion with S. Peeter and his See It is the companie of Catholiques And Catholiques some are in charitie and in the grace of God and are saued some die in mortall sinne some loose their faith at last 1. Tim 1. In the primitiue Church some made shipwracke of their faith as Hymeneus and Alexander saith the Apostle Some do beleeue for a tyme said our B. Sauiour Luk. 8.1 and in tyme of tēptation do reuolt And the Spirit manifestlie saith that in the last tymes certaine shall depart from the faith attending to the Spiritts of errour 1. Tim. 4 Matth. 2 14. Many are called but fewe chosen There are some with wedding garments and some without some wise virgins some foolish some corne some chaffe some vessells of honour some of dishonour some good some bad some predestinate some reprobate in the Church The predestinate will perseuer the rest will not 111. I come now to the second part of this Chapter wherein I am to loosesome tyme in asking a question or two about your dombe-preaching Church about the Saincts of your election about those people which were in all tymes but neuer before Luther and in all Nations before his tyme but no wherein the world And I demand first whether all the rest were like you or no if they were why then were they inuisible You say you are predestinate and yet you are visible notwithstanding your predestination and a member of that Church whie then might not the other men be visible allso euerie one of thē and the whole visible 112. I demaund secondlie whether you do knowe the rest of your Church the rest of your predestinate breethren or whether you knowe none of that Church but your selfe onely ād whether euery one in that Church knowe himselfe onelie and no more If you do not knowe any of them what Societie cā you haue among you what gouerment what forme of a Church If you do knowe any I desire to heare how wee finde not your names in the Scripture the booke of life is not printed with the Gospell 2. Tim. 2.19 Iohn 10.14 wee reade there that our Lord knowes who be his that our greate Pastor knowes his sheepe That you can do it that you can number all his sheepe that you can point them out wee reade not I pray you howe come you to knowe the secret is it by exterior profession that serues not they may dissemble and which is worse for you none professed your religion for 900 yeeres togeather and therefore by profession you knowe none in all that tyme. Neither would an vnfained profession haue serued the turne for euerie one that persuades himselfe that he beleeues is not constant in the faith nor predestinate What then be the certaine markes whereby you knowe your inuisible brethrē that wee may knowe them too or do you not indeed knowe them Remember what hath ben said in the first booke if you knowe them let vs heare the markes the markes of a predestinated Protestant and bringe vs one example any tyme for 900. yeeres before Luther of such a man an example out of questiō a manifest example If you do not knowe them you cannot conferre with them in your difficulties you cannot helpe them in their necessities you cannot meete in Councell as the Apostles and Pastors did in the primitiue Church you cannot haue the face nor the gouerment of a Church 133. I must examine further by your leaue In your Catholique Church of predestinate is there order or confusion are there Pastors ād Doctors and Bysshops or no Bysshops no Pastors no Doctors is there a Hierarchie or not are the preachers and Superintendents seene and heard or how are the things dōne The reason of my demand or doubt is because this Catholique Church of yours is inuisible and therefore it seemes that no man can see the Preacher otherwise many in the companie might see him if not all and so he were visible He allso might see them he preached vnto and so they were visible too and consequentlie the whole companie and the whole Church were visible not inuisible 114. It might seeme by your talke that this holie Congregation of yours hath greate eares and no eies for if they had eies they might then see the Ministers that instructe them they might see their Superintendents Or if they can heare and not see these Ministers their eares reach a greate deale further then their eies But this will not content me neither if yo graunt it for that which may be heard makes a noise and by the noise discouers it selfe if therefore your predestinated Preachers haue made a noise in the world the Christians or Papists liuing with them should haue heard it though they could not see those inuisible men and this at least would be found on record as other wonders are to wit That in all Christian countries there was a Protestant noise ād sermons euerie where in euerie Nation but no preacher seene this would haue bene found in the Chronicles of all countries and some would haue bene so curiouse as to haue noted the points of the Sermons and set downe the doctrine But
of the tyme they liued in produce a Catalogue a Continuall Catalogue of such mē as agreed in doctrine with you such as held the religion now currant in England who were they whence were they where were they hould vp your head man open your eies and looke the question in the face THE THIRD CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen to the demaund by recourse vnto Antiquitie 15. HAd your religion bene such that you could haue giuen accōpt and euidence of her continuall existence in the world there would yet remaine a greater taske behinde which were to prooue the generall communion it had with Nations and that it was and is Catholique in that respect that it did and doth consent with Antiquitie with the Apostles doctrine and with the Scripture for this must be prooued and exactly too before wee receaue it See the Protest Apol. and the Prud. Ballance and leaue that which hath bene generallie professed in England well neare a thousand yeares together and was all that space the knowne religiō of the Christiā world The true religion is such as I haue said and therfore if you will haue vs praie with you first showe that your Church is thus ample thus Catholique thus grounded and ours not for vntill you prooue this which will neuer be you may not hope that wee will come out of our Church into yours To proceed therfore I demaund euidence that your religion that I saie which in England is now currāt hath bene generallie in the cōmunion of the Christian world and I demaund such euidence as may commaund a wise mā to beleeue it Your answeare to this in effect is that in the first six hundred years it was so though you will not be tied to giue accōpt of it afterwardes By which euasion I doe gather that you apprehend the former argumēt as a ghost haunting and affrighting you seeing that for feare of meeting it againe you haue stepped ouer a thousand yeares together to take sanctuarie among the Fathers in their Church I was about to saie you were ill aduised to aduēture yourselfe thether where Iouiniās Nouatiās Donatistes and other your progenitors were cōdemned and accursed but cōsidering your case better I see that feare would not let you aduise at all but cast you no matter whether so it were farre ynough out of my waie 16. Now therfore I follow thether but first obserue how you dare not auouch and in effecte do deny that the religion you maintaine was openlie professed receaued publicklie for nine hundred yeares before Luther which is but could encouragement for men to come to or to staie with you who pretending to giue accompt of a continuall succession and euer visible Catholique Church doe come so short of the thinge expected that you can show none in all the world for nine hūdred yeares together and this which you haue said being wrested out of you vppon the racke ād much against your will because infinitelie preiudiciall to your cause I take for an effect of the former argument which you haue not ben able to answeare yet nor euer will be The like issue it hath oft had before for your writers ād best learned men hauing the space of a hundred yeares together bene vrged and importuned with this question haue laboriouslie searched all recordes turned ouer and ouer all authors examined all writinges with that industrie men are to suppose which a cause required wheruppon eternitie doth depende and yet after infinite inquisition cannot finde such a Church in former tyme as yours is and herevpon haue confessed that the Christian world was of our Religion before Luther not of yours imagining hereby a generall Apostasie frō the faith to haue ouerrunne the whole world Cal. praef Instit Hence Caluin in his Institutions saith that in the ages past there was no face of a true Church and that the true Religiō was drowned ād ouerthrowne for many ages Whittaker saith no religion but the papisticall had place in the Church Whittak cont Dur. p. 274. and wee knowe saith he as plainlie that the Church hath perisshed as thou knowest a man to be dead The Popes tyranny saith Luther hath extinguisshed the faith many ages Luth. Capt Babil c. de Bapt. Perk. Expos Creed p. 400. Simon Voyon Ep ad lect Hutter de sacrif mis p. 377. Before the dayes of Luther saith Perkins for the space of many hūdred yeares an vniuersall Apostasie ouerspred the world When Boniface was installed saith an other the whole world was ouerwhelmed in the dregges of Antichristiā filthines with superstitiōs and traditiōs of the Pope another I graunt willinglie that the papist Idolatrie hath inuaded all most all the world especiallie these last thousād yeares another Hospin Hist Sacram l. 2. p. 157. in the tyme of Gregorie the great all kinde of superstitiō ād Idolatrie hath as a sea ouerflowed all the Christian world no man resisting Another the Papisticall ād Antichristian Raigne began about the yeere 316. after Christ raigning vniuersallie ād without any debateable cōtradiction 1260. yeares Napp on the Reuel p. 68. the Pope and his clergie during all that tyme possessing the outward visible Church of the Christiās another For certaine through the worke of Antichrist the externall Church Seb. Franc. Ep de abrog stat Eccl. together with the faith and sacramēts vanished a way presentlie after the Apostles departure and for these 1400. yeares the Church hath bene no where externall and visible another the true Church decaied immediatelie after ther Apostles tyme. Fulk answer to Counterf Cath. p. 35. I haue a horrour to recite what the bouldnes of your men doth auouch further towching the Christian Church in common and her Apostasie from the faith cōtrarie to the sēse of all Antiquity and to the iudgment of the Christian world yea contrarie to the promises of Iesus Christ and to the couenant of allmightie God as hereafter I will shewe Meane while compare these textes vnto your doctrine of the Church In the later dayes shall be prepared the mountaine Isay 2. the house of our lord in the toppe of mountaines and it shall be raised aboue the litle hilles and all Nations shall flowe vnto it Thou shalt not be called any more forsaken and thy land shall not be any more called desolate Id. c. 62. but thou shalt be called my will in her and thy land inhabited because our lord hath taken complacence in thee and thy land shall be inhabited Id. c. 59. My spirit that is in thee and my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seede saith our lord from hence foorth and for euer 17. The Church in the Scripture is so ample that All nations flowe vnto it so established and so deare vnto Christ that she is no more forsaken but her lād euer
was yet with you that all things must needs be fullfilled which are written in the lawe of Moyses and the prophets and the psalmes of me then he opened their vnderstanding that they might vnderstand the scriptures and he said vnto them that so it is written and so it behoued Christ to suffer and to rise againe the third daie from the dead and penance to be preached in his name and remission of sinnes to all Nations begining at Ierusalem I neede not adde any more for by this is aboundantlie showne that the Christian Church was by the intentiō of God the Father and of his sonne Iesus Christ to be in the communion of all Natiōs and Catholique in this positiue sense and that all this infalliblie was to be and would be fullfilled And thus much noe Iewe nor Christian turne about which waie he will can denie 7· Now further least one should foolishlie conceaue that in the primitiue tyme it had gotten to this amplitude fullie and then decaied I proceede and shewe that the same Church is vniuerfall for tyme likewise and indeed this tergiuersation might be refuted by experience because the world knowes that many Nations came into the Church since that tyme which is S. Augustines argument against the Donatists who thought by that meanes to deceaue the Catholiques and delude their arguments of vniuersalitie but here I will prooue it by Scripture And first I might vrge to this purpose the testimonies allreadie cited both because the extent of the Church vnto all Nations doth consequentlie reach vnto all tymes Perpetuitie all Nations and people being not at one tyme conuerted and Christian as allso because some doe expresse a perpetuitie but the Scripture being full I will adde more God the Father in the Psalmes speaking of his sonne amongst other things saith Psal 88. v. 28.29.37 38 I will put him as the first begotten high aboue the kings of the earth and I will keepe my mercie vnto him foreuer and my testament faithfull vnto him I will put his seede for euer and euer and his throne as the daies of heauen c. His seede shall continue for euer and his throne as the sunne in my sight and as the moone perfect foreuer Isa 62. v. 3 4. And of the Church thou shalt be a crowne of glorie in the hād of our Lord and a diademe of a kingdome in the hand of thy God thou shalt be no more called Forsaken and thy land shall be no more called Desolate but thou shalt be called my will in her and thy land inhabited because it hath well pleased our Lord in thee and thy land shall be inhabited I will make a league of peace to them an euerlasting couenant shall be to them Ezech. 37. v. 26.27.28 and I will forme them and will giue my sanctification in the middest of them foreuer and my tabernacle shall be in them and I will be their God and they shall be my people and the Gentiles shall knowe that I am the Lord the Sanctifier of Israel when my sanctification shall be in the middest of them for euer The God of heauen will raise vp a kingdome Dan. 2. v. 44. that shall not be dissipated for euer and this kingdome shall not be deliuered to an other people and it shall breake in peeces and shall consume all those kingdomes and it selfe shall stand for euer To which the newe Testamēt doth consent Luk. 1. v. 33 Mat. 16. v. 19. he Christ shall raigne in the house of Iacob for euer and of his kingdome there shall be noe end Vppon this rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it 28. v. 20. I am with you all daies euen to the consummation of the world Ioh. 14. v. 15 I will aske my father and he will giue you another paraclete that he may abide S. Aug. de vnit Eccl. c. 13. Mat. 13. v. 30. with you foreuer c. The like is in many other places amongst which S. Augustine doth vrge that of S. Matthew let both growe till haruest because our Sauiour doth expound himselfe by the field to haue vnderstoode the world by the good seed the children of that kingdome v. 37. c. by the cockle the children of the wicked one by the haruest the end of the world so that both are to growe vntill then Lastlie that I leaue not the Apostle of the Gentiles out in this busines He Christ gaue some Apostles Ephes 4. v 11.12 and some Prophets and other some Euangelists and other some Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the Saincts vnto the worke of the ministerie vnto the edifying of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all in the Vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God 8. This congregation Vnitie Io. 10.16 or Church notwithstanding the foresaid greatnesse ad extension is but one being one fold and one bodie vnder one Pastor and one head Iesus Christ Ephes 4 v. 16. of whome saith the Apostle the whole bodie compact and knit together by all iuncture of subministration according to the operation into the measure of euerie member maketh the increase of the bodie vnto the edifying of it selfe in Charitie By which words wee are taught likewise that this bodie is heterogeneall that is See more of this in the 3. Book 6 c consisting of diuers kinds of parts as mans bodie is whereunto this mysticall bodie is compared hauing in it eies mouth feete and the like in proportion 1. Cor. 12 which may be vnderstoode more fullie out of the Epistle of the same Apostle to the Corinthians 9. And thus farre I haue proceeded in the Scripture shewing you there the Church of God built on a rocke against which the gates of hell cannot preuaile a perpetuall kingdome if you beleeue God that shall not be dissipated corrupted deliuered to another people that shall stand for euer shall haue no end a people that shall be no more forsaken no more desolate They shall haue the Spirit with them abiding with them not departing from them and Iesus Christ with them all dayes to the consummation of the world and the Sanctification of God in the middest of them for euer Into their communion shall come the streingth of Nations the multitude of the sea all kings and people and tongues all the families of the Gentiles all Nations what soeuer They shall be dilated to the East West North and South and shall be multiplied as the dust of the earth as the sand of the Sea as the starres in heauen They shall be as the sunne in the sight of God and as the daies of heauen They shall haue pastors and Doctors to the worlds end the word of God shall neuer out of their mouthes and thy shall not hold their peace daie nor night for euer 10. Compare this now to your Church to your companie which wee haue searched and
them This is a succession because they were not all at one tyme and a Catholique succession because the communion of Nations was with them and with their faith and their Decrees 61. Other obiections you haue against the truth of the doctrine which this Church doth maintaine But the chiefest of them are allready answeared in another place And hereafter I will proue at large that the Catholique Church onelie hath the assistance of the all teaching Spiritte and therfore cannot be condemned of errour by any meanes extant in the world whatsoeuer noe iudgment being of greater or of equall authoritie with hers by reason of the Spiritte which doth teach her all truth The second Conclusion The Christians in Communion with Vrbanus VIII are the Church of God THE THIRD BOOKE OF DIVINE ASSISTANCE THE FIRST CHAPTER Proouing diuine Assistance in the Catholike Church 1. HAVING declared sufficientlie which is the Church it followes next that wee speake of the diuine assistance in beleeuing and teaching which assistance the sonne of God hath promised vnto it Catholiques as I haue said before doe resolue their iudgment into the iudgment of the Church and the iudgment of the Church doth relie vppon the assistance of the holie Ghost by whose prouidence it is preserued from erring in the pâ—oposition of diuine faith This assistance in Church-proposition wee beleeue and that you must also grant and beleeue it I am now to prooue You will not denie that men are to be instructed trulie in faith an diuine matters for how shall they liue as Christians ought vnles they beleeue rightlie and how shall they beleeue rightlie if they be not well taught and instructed how shall they inuocate saith the Apostle in whome they haue not beleeued Rom. 10.14 and how shall they beleeue in whoÌ„ they haue not heard or how shall they heare without a preacher it cannot be For no man of himselfe is able to finde out or to discouer the mysteries of our faith the Trinitie the Incarnation of the Sonne of God the Scriptures and their meaning It is therefore necessarie that men be instructed in matters of faith 2. And since instruction is necessarie as wee also by experience know this instruction must be looked for in some Schoole and from some masters or instructors The question therefore comes presentlie about this teaching Schoole which and where it is that a man there may be instructed To this question the answeare is easie first it is not the companie of Athiests or Pagans for their doctrine and instruction is not holie and diuine Secondlie it is not the companie of Iewes for their doctrine is not Christian Thirdlie it is not the companie of confessed Heretiques therefore it is the Church for the Church is the Schoole of Iesus Christ and which this is I haue declared in the former booke This supposed I reason thus for diuine assistance 3. It belongs to the prouidence of allmightie God to assist that Schoole in which by his will and ordinance the whole world is to be instructed in diuine matters and Religion Therefore it belongs to Gods prouidence to Arg. 1 assist the Church for the Church is the said Schoole as I declared before The argument is cleere and needs no further confirmation but least you seeke to escape it if it be vrged by one that is no Scholler with some fonde distinction I note here that the Spirit doth assist to beleeue and to teach The first of these acts is in the vnderstanding and interior the second is publique or exterior and in the mouth The Spirit doth assist the Church both wayes that is to beleeue and to teach but the argument doth proceede here of assistance to the later to teach because faith according to S. Paul doth suppose instruction or teaching aÌ„d euery one should haue faith for without faith it is impossible to please God and he that beleeueth not shall be condemned Hebr. 11. Mar. 16. Moreouer you knowe that for resolution in diuine matters it is necessarie that a man knowe where to seeke instruction whom he may securelie followe in whose iudgment he may rest in whome and where the Spirit of God doth speake This is the thinge wee looke for and this thing is in noe other companie but the Schoole of Iesus Christe the Church 4. It may be you will say that a man desirous of instruction should come to you But this will not satisfie for what should a man haue done before Luther when Protestants were not nor your Religion thought vppon as I haue seene allreadie in the first booke He might haue gone ouer all the world to looke for your Church and lost his labour But deale plainlie with vs and declare your minde is there any congregation in the world whose instruction one may securelie fellowe or no if there be not what course should vnlearned men take to learne the truth shall they beleeue without preachers If there be which is it and whence hath it that it may be followed of it selfe or from the Spirit you can answeare nothinge but the Spirit and this Spirit not in Athiests nor in Iewes nor in confessed Heretiques but in the Church And thus much for those who seeke instruction 5. I prooue secondlie this assistance by the necessitie of a Iudge to determine controuersies Arg. 2 in matter of Religion Since the Scripture is obscure in many places and since Heresies do and must arise in the world it is necessarie that there be some Visible meanes able and sufficient to determine controuersies which meanes can be no other but the proposition and iudgmeÌ„t of the Church For being visible and intelligent able to heare examine and define the controuersies it must needs consist of men not of meere Spirits or of insensible creatures and if it consist of men these men must not be Athiests or enemies to the Christian doctrine such as are Pagans Iewes and confessed Heretiques and therefore they must be the Church or that part of it which is to teach The iudge of controuersies therefore is the Church Whence it followes that the holie Spirit doth assist her in this act of determining controuersies in matter of faith directing her vnderstaÌ„ding to coÌ„ceaue the meaning of Gods word and preseruing her from errour in the proposition of it This discourse you cannot denie with any shewe of probabilitie for there is no meanes to make an end of controuersies among men if the iudgment of the Church be neglected or be not certaine aÌ„d infallible if the Spirit of truth be not in the Church it is in none at all if it doth not teach the Church it doth teach none if it doth not direct the Church to vnderstand Gods word it directeth none if it doth not assist the Church when she for the generall good of the Christian world doth determine a controuersie of faith it doth assist none at all for all the promise made by our Sauiour Iesus Christ of assistaÌ„ce is made vnto
manners all most infinite And further yet there is and hath ben controuersie about the rule it self as which it is how much is Scripture which booke which chapter which verse is or is not holy Scripture what is the meaning of this or that verse which controuersies must be decided otherwise there will neuer be vnitie and consent about the diuine Word rule and lawe Now these things cannot be determined without Diuine Assistance as I argued before and for the Vnitie in Religion and the CommunioÌ„ and Perpetuitie power to determine them is necessarie wherefore since our Sauiours Prouidence was not deficient it followes that there is and in the Church such power and Assistance 47. Fourthlie if the holie ministerie in the Church of God be established as a rule of mens faith to the end they be not in their faith wauering and borne about with euery winde of newe doctrine to the circumuention of errour then is it by Gods assistance and perpetuall watch and direction infallible but the sacred ministerie of the Church of God is thus established by Iesus Christ which I proue by the testimonie of S. Paule before alleadged he Christ Ephes 4. v. 11. c. gaue some Apostles aÌ„d other some Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the Saints vnto the worke of the ministerie vnto the edifying of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God into the measure of the age of the fullnes of Christ that now wee be not children wauering and caried about with euerie wind of doctrine in the wickednes of men in craftines to the circumuention of errour 47. Fiftly since you distinguish the doctrine of faith into fundamentall and not fundamentall it followes that the Apostles had put into their mouthes for instruction of Gods people doctrine allso not fundameÌ„tall Iohn 15. v. 15. all thinges whatsoeuer I hard of my father I haue notified vnto you said our Sauiour to the Apostles Whence I inferre also that that doctrine shall neuer out of their mouthes or the mouthes of their successors while the world endures and proue it by Gods couenant of assistance Isay 5â— my spiritte that is in thee and my wordes that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth aÌ„d out of the mouth of thy seede aÌ„d out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer And by the promise of our blessed Sauiour Isay 14. v. 26. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Paraclete the holy Ghost whome the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all thinges and suggest vnto you all thinges whatsoeuer I shall say to you 49. That you may the better vnderstand this peece of diuinitie which doth oft occurre I will spend a litle more tyme in it to let you know first that you and the rest of your fellowes in this matter doe crosse and contradict your owne selues For touching other pointes pointes of religioÌ„ and gods word which you saie are not fundamentall Further Confirmation of the former arguments either there is certaine knowledge to be had of them or there is not make choise of which you please If you be not certaine you must confesse you doubt of the truth of such pointes and of the meaning of Gods word in all places by vs alleadged which are not fundamentall and that you confidentlie auouch in the pulpitte and maintaine against vs in the matters of reall presence iustificatioÌ„ merit workes of Supererogation sacrifice inuocation of Sainctes c. that which you doubt whether it be as you saie or noe If you be certaine either you meane that the Spiritte doth assist and assure you in more then fundamentalles which indeed is your ordinarie pulpite bragge where none dispute with you and consequentlie you must graunt against your distinction that the assistance of the Spiritte is extended further then to your pretended fundamentalles or you meane that you are not assured by the Spiritte but onelie by your witte which witt you oppose to the witte and iudgment of all the Church in diuine matters And if it be thus you contradict you selues because at home you say you resolue it not into your owne witte but into the Spirit 50. You answeare that by illation you conclude against vs but who knowes not that the difficultie is about the sense of the place from whence you offer to conclude against vs and that first you must be certaine of this sense before you can extract any thing out of it by good consequeÌ„ce I demaund therfore whether you be certaine of the sense or noe if you be not you are not certaine of the conclusion which you draw there hence as euery logitian can tell if you be then I demaund how since mans witte in diuine matters may mistake and this you confesse assistance of the Spiritte you haue not or if you pretend to haue it then confesse that in your owne iudgment it is extended in Gods promise to more then fundamentalles 51. Secondlie you contradict the whole Church aÌ„d her spiritte in this foolish affirmatioÌ„ of the Churches errour in pointes not fuÌ„damentall as you call them A second Confirmation And this I proue because all ChristiaÌ„s that euer were in the coÌ„munion of the Church hetherto did submitte their iudgmeÌ„t to the generall iudgmeÌ„t of the Church in the age before them beleeuing all whatsoeuer was theÌ„ generallie aÌ„d without exception beleeued whether the point were one of those which you call fundamentall or were not one of them in somuch that you are not able to name any one point held generallie without exception in any former age to be matter of faith though it were not one of your fundamentalles which point was reiected by the Church generallie in any ensuing age And to giue all the scope in this you can desire take all the tyme from the comming of the assisting Spiritt which was the whitsontide next after our Sauiours ascension to this present yeare But be sure you obserue diligentlie what I haue said in this argument and doe not speake of thinges which are not to this purpose either because they were not generallie and without exception esteemed matters of faith by the Church Catholique or because the contradiction tradition was not the act of the Church but of some priuate man either mistakeÌ„ by ignoraÌ„ce the Church not approuing his assertion or pertinaciously a uouching it â—n Hereticke and so without and none of vs. 3. Confirmation 52. The truth of that which I haue said is further yet manifest in this that all whosoeuer were generallie condemned for Heretiques in any former age by the Church were esteemed so by the Church in following tymes whether their Heresies were in matters you call fundamentall or not as he may see who will runne ouer the Heresies of former tymes whence it followes elderlie that
difference is not by meanes of the letter Reflect well on all this when you answeare the first booke nor of any common good Spiritt for that would not contradict it selfe as they do each other this difference cannot be taken but from the sense imaginatioÌ„ aÌ„d will of each partie and therefore each partie must be defined by his owne wit or by all his opinions in matter of faith 75. And here I answeare to your common replie of the Schoolemens disagreement in Schoole-questioÌ„s for notwithstaÌ„ding the varietie of opinioÌ„s in matters not defined by the Church before or in their tyme all Schoolemen that were Catholiques did agree in faith and all did beleeue the same according as I haue said before of other men Each of them tooke the iudgment of the Church for infallible therein beleeuing all whatsoeuer she either had or hereafter would determine This did euerie Schoole man euerie Catholique Deuine euerie Father 76. This way S. Augustine doth excuse S. Cyprian in the matter of rebaptization Before the consent of the whole Church by the decree of a plenarie or generall Councell S. Aug li. 1. de Bapt cont Don. c. 18. had determined what was to be embraced of all in that controuersie of rebaptizing the recoÌ„ciled S. CypriaÌ„ with allmost fowerscore of his fellow African Bysshops did thinke that euerie one who was baptized out of the Catholique coÌ„munion ought to be baptized againe when he had reconciled himselfe to the Church As yet there had bene no generall CouÌ„cell assembled in that behalfe but the world was held in by the strength of custome l. 2 c. 9. and this custome onelie was opposed to those which endeuoured to bringe in that noueltie of rebaptization because they could not apprehend the truth yet afterwards whilst among many on both sides it is spoken of and sought it is not onelie found out but allso brought to the autoritie and strenght of a generall Councell after Cyprians passion indeede but yet before I was borne A precedeÌ„t plenarie may be ameÌ„ded by a subsequent plenarie in matters oâ— fact And in faith a generall not approued by a generall approued Councell In the same place by occasion of the Councells by S. Cyprian and his predecessors made in Africke he saith that particular Councells must yeld to generall and that the whole is deseruedlie preferd before the part or particulars More ouer in the same booke a little before he prooues out of S. Cyprians words that if S. Cyprian had knowne of such a definition he would haue corrected his opinion and then shewes how much he doth relie on it himselfe Neither durst wee affirme any such thinge if wee were not well grounded vppon the most vniforme authoritie of the vniuersall Church l. 2. c. 4. vnto which vndoubtedlie S. Cyprian allso would haue yeelded if in his tyme the truth of this question had bene cleered and declared S. Augustines Spâ—rit and by a generall CouÌ„cell establisshed And of the same againe he hath an excellent discourse in the fift booke where amonge other things he saith that he pleaseth not the Saint if he seeke to preferre his wit and eloquence and store of learning before the holie Councell of all Nations â— 5. e. 17. to which doubtles he was present by vnitie of Spirit and if I with the whole world do iudge more truelie â—bid I do not preferre my hart before him neither is he in that he iudged otherwise deuided from the whole world â—bid I preferre not my opinion before his but the iudgmeÌ„t of the holy Catholique Church â— Cuius vniâ—ersitas ipâ— non fuit â—d in eius â—niuersitaâ— permanâ—t all which he was not but remained in it This is inough for my purpose and in the same principles of S. Augustine you see now that I can answeare any obiection that you can bringe out of the dissention of ancient or moderne writers or rather if you reflect on it well you will be able to answeare it all your selfe 77. This passage hath made me call to minde other speaches of the Fathers not farre from this purpose whereof I thinke it not amisse to put some downe for your better meditation if you will be pleased peraduenture to thinke more seriouslie on their words then you haue done hetherto on mine The truth of the scripture is helde of vs in this matter when wee doe that which pleaseth the whole Church Aug. l. 1. â—nt Cres â—3 the which the authoritie of the scriptures doth commend that because the holy Scriptures cannot deceaue whosoeuer feareth to be deceaued with the obscuritie of this question let him require the iudgment of the Church which the holie scripture without any ambiguitie doth demonstrate Vincent lirin conâ— Haeres c. 2â— It is necessarie by reason of the windings of vnconstant errour that the line of propheticall aÌ„d Apostolicall interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Ecclesiastical and Catholique sense And in the Catholique Church likewise wee must haue a greate care that wee hold that which hath bene beleeued euery where euer and by all c. 3. for this is truelie aÌ„d properlie Catholique as the power and reason of the word or name doth import which truelie doth coÌ„prehend all vniuersallie And this is so done in fine if wee followe vniuersalitie antiquitie consent vniuersalitie wee followe if wee confesse that one faith to be true which the whole Church thorough the world doth acknowledge and Antiquitie if wee do not in any sort leaue those senses which it is manifest that our Fathers and holie elders haue celebrated and commended and consent allso if wee followe the definitions ad decrees of all or neere all the Priests and Masters in Antiquitie 78. A protestant would thinke me vnreasonable if I should demand and exact all these conditions in euery protestant proposition before I beleeue it yet I will beleeue none of their doctrine vnles it be thus prooued nor all their Religion vnles it be thus prooued all which is as much to say as that by Gods grace I will neuer beleeue it Wee haue possessioÌ„ the spirit is in our Church aÌ„d this father was of it aÌ„d doth acknowledge it of greater authoritie of more infallibilitie then himselfe aÌ„d his rules were ruled by it but I goe on In the Antiquitie of the Church two things are constantlie and with greate care to be obserued Idem c. 41 to both which all they that will not become Heretiques must steed fastlie adhere The first is whatsoeuer is auncientlie decreed by all the Priests of the Catholique Church in a generall Councell secondlie if any newe question doth arise concerning which there is no such decree to be founde then must recourse be made to the iudgment of the holie Fathers I say of those onelie who euery one in their owne tyme were found to be approued masters continuing still in the vnitie of communion and faith And whatsoeuer they are
England for example but in the world it shall allwayes bee ◠2. c. 1. for so much is euident by the Scripture Neither doth it followe God permittes some tymes one man to fall into Apostasie some tymes another therfore he will at once permitte all he permittes diuers to die before you ād for ought you knowe he may permitte any one man whom soeuer you can name or thinke of yea any one in all the world yet hence it is not cōsequēte that it stands with his generall prouidence to permitt euery one to die before you that so you may be last the onelie man a liue I answeare therfore that As by vertue of Gods generall prouidence in as much as he is author of nature there be still in the world men though some at all tymes dropp away so by vertue of Gods prouidence as he is author of the supernaturall order among men there be euer Catholiques in the world and so will be still as long as the world stands though some men yea some Nations and some perticular Churches do fall of 124 The next which is allso the last I am to speake of here lookes bigge ō all ād thinkes to make an ēd of our cause with one blowe The scope of it is to proue that all may erre and therfore that wee are not to be heard though neuer so many Councells and auncient fathers and worlds of people doe stand for vs and comes on in this manner The whol◠Church militant consisting of mē Wh◠are lyers may erre alltogethe◠as euery part thero◠Fulk ans◠to Count Cat. p. 89. All Christians that are or euer were in the world are men therfore it might happen that all haue erred though they were assēbled together neuer so orderlie because euery man is a lier If this argumēt did prooue any thing it would prooue that all Councells all Apostles all Euangelists all prophets hether to may for any thing you know haue bene in errour for all these were men and euery man is a lier This is the vp shott of your disputation this is the hauen you haue all this while bene sailing vnto this though first but a shifte wherunto you were driuen by the strength of authoritie brought against you is now your doctrine and a Conclusion in your bookes Our answeare is easie that man of himselfe might erre but by diuine assistance might be so guided that he erred not and no man can denie this vnles he denie that God is omnipotent or omniscious which if he doe the light of nature will condemne him Thus generall Councells are assisted thus were the Euangelists allso and thus the Prophetts though nor after the same manner all And the promise of the Assistance did more concerne the Pastors then the people Oecumenicall Councells then each Bisshop single the whole colledge of the Apostles more then one Though each Apostle being to teach the whole Church in the nature of an Apostle had this assistance too and our Sauiour praying for the sanctification of his elected in truth or for their perseuerance included the meanes allso of this perseuerāce of his elect in the truth which is the perpetuitie of his assistance vnto those in whome is the teaching authoritie respectiuelie to the whole in which those elected are though to pastors in particular vnknowne 125. But to looke now a little vppon you who are so resolute in your ignorance as to thinke that all may haue mystaken the truth which you haue foūd and haue bene forsakē by the Spiritte who singularlie fauours you I demaund of you the Spirittes darling and worlds fresh Oracle First how one may knowe that you are exempted frō the world of men which may erre alltogether or what other species or kind you and your witte belonge vnto that men should leaue the whole world though consenting and take your authoritie against them all the same Question would I aske of your fellowe Rainolds ād of Whittaker were they liuing but hauing vndertaken their cause the resolution belongs to you in their absēce Secondlie I desire a sight of your particular letters patents from Iesus Christ wherein the teaching Spiritte is thus singularlie bequeathed and addicted vnto you or to either of the forenamed in particular or Iohn white if you had rather togeather with a clause that though he breake his promise made vnto the Church and hath not as he said he would sente the allteaching Spiritte to the Apostles to their Successors or to the Church Catholique yet that that other promise no where extant for ought wee knowe made particularlie vnto you his deerest he will not breake and how you are sure he will stand to this clause Thirdlie I demaūd why the Catholiques of Englād be there commaunded and vrged allso to conforme their conscience to the doctrine of your Church and to rest in her iudgment and in the parlamentarie decrees for points of Religion though worlds of men as learned euery waie I speake least as your selues doe and haue maintained the contrarie to their dying daie as conformable to the Scripture to reasō ād to the practise of their forefathers time out of mind I demaund I saie why you proceede with thē in this manner before you giue euidēce that you are not in errour since you likewise are mē and all mē may erre as you tell vs. Euidence I say greater thē any these haue on their side I demaund further of your wisdome how you doe know and are certaine that the Euāgelists Apostles ād Prophetts did write those bookes which you take for diuine Scripture and how you doe know your selfe ād cā prooue to me there is no errour or mistaking in the matter if all mē may haue erred And I demaund further how you doe knowe that he which did write the first Gospell suppose he were S. Matthewe did not erre since he was a man and all men you saie may erre I demaund Fiftlie howe men shall come to be sure of the sense of a peece of Scripture and to haue the controuersies in religion determined Must he come to you why rather then to the Church which was before you were borne and had the promise of the Spiritte If to the Spiritte why rather to that in you them to that in the Church If to others why must wee goe to old Heretiques to Iewes to Pagans to Athiests rather then to the Church why should any knowe better then she or abounde more with the Spiritte then she doth I demaund next what an Heretique is and why he which opposeth himselfe in matters of faith to generall Councells to the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and to Gods word proposed by this Church and expounded by this Spiritt is not one And Seuenthlie I demaund whether this sinne be not against the holie Ghost and whether he who dieth in it shall be saued and admitted into the Church triumphant who thus opposed the militant and died a vowed enemy to her and to her
you cannot speede there you endeuoure by the Nicene Councell to prooue the Bishop of Alexandria to be thus equall to the Roman and that the Romā Bisshop was there limited by the Councell as well as others I haue looked on that canon but see nothing for your purpose The Bisshop of Alexandria is not said there to be equall to the Roman Bishop neither is there any speach of limiting the Roman to the west as you pretend The words are Conc. Nicen can 6. Let the auncient custome be kept in Aegypt Libia and Pentapolis that the Bisshop of Alexandria haue power ouer all these because the Roman Bisshop hath such a custome Here the Popes custome is a reason whie the Bisshop of Alexandria is to haue power ouer Aegypt Libia and Pentapolis whereby is insinuated that the Bisshop of Alexandria therein depended on the Popes accustomed manner of gouermēt which argues a superioritie in the Pope not an equalitie in the other Your explicatiōs you must prooue to be text if you will haue me to beleeue thē Meane while neither in this Councell can you finde any thing for your cause vnles wee childishlie will take a glosse for the text and giue you equall authoritie with a generall Coūcell in assertiōs and decrees If the Romā Bisshop had there bene with his owne consent limited to the west for exercise of Patriarchal authoritie I would āsweare that he sustaining diuers offices in one and the same person might be more limited in regard of the one then of the other his Patriarchall power might be contained with in the west though his Pastorall Iurisdiction reached ouer the whole Church as man hath the power of seeing restrained vnto coloured Obiects but his power of vnderstanding reaches further to the whole latitude of being 11. Failing againe this way you stand still like a stocke and refuse to acknowledge any successor to sainct Peeter in his generall care and Pastorall office because you cannot see what necessitie there is of a Successor It seemes you are growne dull with disputing and would heare me rather speake I am contented A Successor in that office was ād is necessarie first because the Church at all tymes needs a generall Pastor ād visible Foundatiō as well as it did in the begining since therefore the Christiā Church is to endure till the worlds ēd Visible Pastor such as sainct Peeter was the Pastor ād visible Foūdatiō must likewise endure to confirme and to direct it secondlie Peeter in person could not feede ād rule all the sheepe of Christ from his tyme till the words end our Sauiour therefore prouiding the Church of a Pastor that might feede ād rule thē did in the persō of S. Peeter vnderstand his Successors in that office that so the sheepe might allwayes haue a Pastor to rule and feede them Otherwise the greatest part of the flocke that is all after S Peeters dayes till the worlds end should haue no generall Pastor here on earth though they wanted him no lesse yea more then did the Christians in sainct Peeters time Thirdlie the best forme of gouerment is Monarchicall something tempered with Aristocracie and the more Nations are added to the Church the more neede of a Monarch One is vndeuided in himselfe his iudgment and his principles are the same but a multitude is diuided ād the greater the multitude the more varietie of iudgmēt the greater the varietie of inclinatiōs dispositiōs affectiōs ād iudgment is the more neede there is of a cause of Vnitie to keepe them in One which would neuer be if euery mā freelie might chose his way and be a rule vnto himselfe Wee see this in Heretiques who hauing no visible cause of vnion in matter of faith doe runne sundry wayes Arius one Nestorius another and so to the very last Philosophers ould and moderne haue gonne seuerall waies and filld the Schooles with questions which will neuer be decided their iudgments being directed by no One. Seuerall Nations haue diuers lawes according to the different opinions of their Rulers and Lawe-makers the like would be in England if each Shire were independent of another and of a Monarch or common couerner In religion allso each Minister would haue his way Now the Church was to haue it it all Nations and in them is infinite varietie of iudgment 10. 10. id c. 21. wherefore our Sauiour to containe them all in one did ordaine a Monarch there shall be made one Fould and one Pastor Peeter feede my sheepe Act. 20. And tempering this Monarchie with Aristocracie he putte Bysshops allso to rule the Church Fourthlie it was necessarie that in the Church there should be one to attend generallie to the whole to call generall Councells to be President there to containe the multitude of Bishops in Vnitie and to haue a care principallie of the Churches generall affaires which care our Sauiour gaue to sainct Peeter as an Ordinarie Office in that he made him Pastor of his Fold the Christian Church and if it were necessarie then in the Apostles daies much more it is now Fiftly Pastors are to continue in the Church till the end of the world by the doctrine of S. Paul therefore the chiefe Pastor is likewise to continue which could not be in one person therefore in diuers If you say that our Sauiour himselfe is chiefe Pastor Ephes 4. I replie that amonge visible Pastors one is chiefe though subordinate vnto Christ and he is to remaine as well as the rest of the clergie and his existence is necessarie for the Gouerment of the Church Our Sauiour doth continuallie teach and baptize but by others and so doth he cōtaine the Church in Vnity and gouerne by subordinate meanes ordained and instituted for this purpose as God lights the world with the Sūne though if he had so pleased he could haue donne it otherwise 12. What you pretend about Election of a Successor is not hard the Church designes the Person and then he receaues power from our Sauiour in vertue of the first institution as man disposeth matter in the generation of a man and nature presents it so prepared vnto the Creator who by vertue of the first institution of mankinde inspires a sowle which the generant could not make It is true that the Churches action is hindered sometymes by Schisme or other meanes as mans generation is likewise hindred otherwhile but such hindrances are in tyme remoued and the Successor designed Neither is the Succession interrupted properlie in this tyme because this Election is a continuation of it So that all you haue said about the tyme of Schisme might haue bene spared because then the Church was busie in determining a successor though she were hindred sometymes more sometymes lesse according to the difficulties which did occurre 13. To conclude your opposition in this matter you take vpon you not to knowe who doth succede sainct Peeter But if you had lookt aboute you could not haue doubted First because
prototyporum memariam recordasionem desiderium veniant illisque salutationem HONORARIAM ADORATIONEM exhibeant NON secundum fidem nostram VERAM LATRIAM qua solùm diuinae naturae competit Definitio Conc. Nic. 2. act 7. Legatur Epistola Concelij ad Impp. in fine eiusdem actionis To this Decree the Church in the Councell of Trent refers it self Sess 25. and saith only wee are to giue Images DEBITVM honerem venerationem leauing the further specification of this honour to be learned out of the Nicene Decree further A thing may be adored per se and per accidens and by this I leaue you to vnderstand the Schoolemen for I speake heere onely of the doctrine of the CHVRCH Poets and Rhetoricians haue their figures Must a Generall and approued Councell be condemned with such beggarlie vn-cohereÌ„t prooâ—e as this Magdeb. cent 8. c. 9. col 636. Quare contra Adriani Pontificis Legatorum eius sententiam decernunt c. The Church hath euer since the Apostles daies and then too beleeued that such a Councell cannot erre and therefore you must produce better euideÌ„ce better theÌ„ that which plaÌ„ted Christianitie if you will make her in her ould age change he Creede 19. But suppose the Franckfort Councell had condemned all kind of honour donne to Images which thing you doe further preteÌ„d but caÌ„not prooue This were nothing against the infallibilitie of Oecumenicall Councells aÌ„d Decrees For that Decree of those Bishops assembled there out of the Westerne parts had wanted the consent of other Churches in communion with the See of Rome It had wanted allso the consent of the See Apostolike without which no decree is or was euer by the Church esteemed Oecumenicall Adrian theÌ„ Pope refuted the Canoline Bookes aÌ„d maintained honoring of Images as appeares cleerly by his Booke to the Emperour yeâ— extant in the Tomeâ— of Councells 20. The Second Obiection in this kind is that two Oecumenicall decrees one made in the a Laterane Councell the other b at Constance are opposite in the matter of the Popes authoritie one will haue the Councell vnder the Pope the other ouer wheÌ„ce you inferre that the Church doth coÌ„tradict her self in beleeuing both Staie Sir not so fast the Church hath not both parts of any oppositioÌ„ in her Creede but let vs coÌ„sider the streingth of your argument If you should auouch that you sawe two lions fighting it is not sufficieÌ„t to the veritie of your relation that the things which you saw did fight or that they were Lions for if one were a Lion the other a Beare or if both were Lions but did agree and not fight your relatioÌ„ would be laughed at To make good your argument you must prooue here two things one is that these are decrees and each Oecmenicall the other that one of them in sense is contradictorie to the other Then further if you will accuse the Church you must prooue that she beleeues them both in those contradictorie senses Your labour would not be vnprofitable if you a Nâ—c illud nos moueâ—â— debet quod sanctio c. eum etiaÌ„ soluÌ„ RomanuÌ„ Pontificem pro tempore existentem tanquaÌ„ authoritaté supre omnia CoÌ„cilia habenteÌ„ conciliorum indâ—cendorum transferendoruÌ„ ac dissoluendoruÌ„ plenuÌ„ ius potestateÌ„ habere neduÌ„ ex sacrae Scripturae testimoniis dictis SaÌ„ctorum Patrum ac aliorum Romanorum Pontificum etiam Praedecessorum nostrorum sacrorumque canonum decretis sed propria etiam eorundem Conciliorum confessione manifestè constet quorum aliqua referre platuit c. Conc. Lateran sub Leone 10. sess 11 b Ispa Synodus in S. S. Congregata legitimè generale Concilium faciens Ecclesiam Catholicam militantem repraesentans potestatem a Christo immediatè habet tui quilibet cuiuscunque status vel dignitatis etiamsi Papalis existat obedire tenetur in his quae pertinent ad fidem extirpationem dicti Schismatis reformationem generalem Ecclesiae Dei in capite in membris Conc. Constant sess 4. could efficaciouslie prooue and make it euident that one of them is such a definition as you speake of and that which soeuer it be wee all will admitte and thanke you too But I must aduise you of the difficulties you are to finde herein being such as greater Schollers then I take you for haue not bene able to ouercome 21. First therfore you are to make it euident that in the Lateran Councell the Superioritie of the Pope is formallie defined and that the words wherin it is attributed vnto him or acknowledged as belonging vnto him haue the nature of a decree for a Councell defines not euerie thing which it saith Secondlie you are to make it euident reflect in whose time and where it was how things stood in France c that the Councell was Oecumenicall and that it was open and free to all Bishops in the communion of the Church Thirdlie you must make it euident that the decree of CoÌ„stance is not limitted in circumstances and that it doth not speake onelie of such a Pope as were doubtfull or in case of Heresie or Schisme but absolutelie of any whatsoeuer Fourthlie you must allso make it euident that the decree was Oecumenicall or the Generall Decree of the Church and not of one Obedience onelie other two not consenting These are some of the many and obscure difficulties which hetherto learned men haue not bene able to see thorough and therfore the truth in this Controuersie lies hidden so as neither part is cleerelie knowne for aÌ„ Oecumenicall decree or definition though you rashlie and most ignorantlie haue affirmed it of them both Which you did to make shewe of good forme in your argumeÌ„t euerie one knowing that a contradiction betwixt Oecumenicall decrees doth suppose that both parts contradicting are Oecumenicall 22. Another part of your argument is that ita is Contradiction and this part must be prooued allso and made euident before your argument recouer strength But it is so farre out your power that suppose all the rest were dissembled you could neuer be able to make it good that is to prooue and demonstrate that one is opposite or contradictorie to the other and therfore you doe most vndiscreetelie reiect the Authoritie of Generall Councells reuerenced euer by the Church and directed by Gods Spiritte out of feare or apprehension of a contradiction which in the Laterane and that of Constance you thinke you see The Scholler who reiects Aristotle or Iustinian or the Bible for euerie seeming contradiction will neuer be good Philosopher nor good Lawier nor good Deuine 23. It is manifest by the acts of the of the Councell of Constance that the decree whereon you insist was at first not made by the whole Church because of three Obediences which then were One onelie that is Iohns Obedience or partie made it the other Two not being vnited vnto them So that if you take it as proceeding from those
onelie who first made it it was not Oecumenicall The other Obediences of Gregorie and Bennet vnited them selues afterwards One in the 14. Session Act. Conc. the other in the 22. and the Church thus vnited a Pope was chosen so that the Councell now that is after the Vnion of all Obediences and Election of the Pope was Oecumenicall and therfore what was now decreed anew or approued though peÌ„ned before was therby made Oecumenicall If therefore you can make it euident that the Councell and Pope at this tyme did approoue the decree before made I will admitte that it is Oecumenicall and beleeue it Neither is there any reason I doe so before this appeares because decrees take their force from the approbation of those which haue authoritie and not allwayes from the writer or conceauer In Parlament a constitution may be conceaued in the lower howse and agreed oÌ„ there yet hath it not the true nature of a lawe till it passe the vpper howse and allso be confirmed by the Kinge So likewise this constitution conceaued and agreed on first by Iohns Obedience or adherents hath not the nature and force of an Oecumenicall decree till it passe the Generall Councell wherein the whole Church is vnited and allso be confirmed by the Pope 23. That wee may see further the weaknes of your argument since you cannot make it euident that the Canon made at Constance in the fourth Session was thus generallie receaued and approued by the Councell when all Obediences were vnited and there ratified by the Pope Let vs freelie and out of curtesie suppose it had bene so and that the Pope were bound to obay the decrees of such a Councell in the things which the canon speakes of and further that in power it were Superiour vnto the Pope all this would coÌ„sist with the words of the other Councell and both might be true These two propositions A Councell perfectlie Oecumenicall and by the power of the See Apostolique approoued I doe not atteÌ„d what the Councell was when the Canon was conceaued but what it was when wee suppose that the Canon was confirmed aÌ„d thereby representing the Church perfectlie and simpliciter as Philosophers speake is aboue the Pope A Councell vnperfectlie Oecumenicall as not being approoued by the Pope nor including his power and consequentlie not representing the Church perfectlie is not aboue the Pope These two propositions I say are not contradictorie nor Opposite and therfore if they were defined wee would beleeue them both 24. If you should aske in that case in whom or in what formallie that power greater theÌ„ the Popes were It would be answeared that it were not preciselie in the Pope nor preciselie in the rest but in the whole consisting of them all as the sowle is not preciselie in the heade nor preciselie in the rest of the bodie but in the whole and compleate bodie consisting of heade shoulders armes hart and other partes in regard whereof as when the bodie is takeÌ„ a sunder and deuided the heade from the shoulders the sowle is in neither of the partes euen so it would be said in that case that if you consider the Pope and the rest of the Councell a part this power were in neither because it is the act the forme and the vertue of the whole or of the Totalitie to speake as the Philosophers doe It would be further answered that such a full Councell had immediatelie the assistance of the All-teaching Spiritte and power to binde and loose and the like by vertue of our Sauiours promise yet so that the Pope alone had power too ouer each in the Church he being in S. Peeter made Pastor of them all In regard of which Institution of our Sauiour all Catholiques agree in this that the Pope is superior to euerie Bisshoppe in the Church 25. Hauing coÌ„pared the Pope being a parte of a full and perfect Oecumenicall CouÌ„cell to the whole bodie or CouÌ„cell wherein he was included as a part in the whole as the heade in a perfect and entire bodie it remaines now that wee deuide this Councell or perfect Bodie againe into two partes by taking the heade from the rest and compare these partes together In this diuision these parts are but two one is the Pope the other are the rest of the Councell which is vnperfect and therefore a parte being without the Pope as a mans bodie without a heade is but an vnperfect bodie and indeed but a part Of the couÌ„cell in this sense the Lateran speakes as the words themselues do conuince euidentlie and it is among all men out of question So that if it were an Oecumenicall decree the cleere sense would be that the Pope were aboue such a Councell and this wee would beleeue Neither were there any contradiction at all in this to saie that one part is in power aboue the other and that the whole is in power aboue either part Reade ouer your Logicke rules examine well the nature of a contradiction marke the termes and you will see that it is true which I doe saie 〈◊〉 you 〈…〉 with any â—â—â—â—â—culties out of Africke it will be easie for you to drowne theÌ„ heere And therefore I conclude the solution of this argument here hauing declared the two propositions which you apprehend as opposite decrees and incite eagerlie one against the other thereby to extenuate the authoritie of Generall Councells to be so farre from the rigour of contradiction that if they were both Decrees and both Oecumenicall of their owne accord they would come together and shake hands THE FIFT CHAPTER Of the Scripture 26. FRom Constance you come to Trent and accuse the Councell held there of two things touching the Scripture the one is addition to the Canon the other the authorization of the vulgar Latin Before I answere I must put you in minde That as you accuse vs for beleeuing some bookes in your iudgment not Canonicall to be the word of God so do others which are in a manner your Masters in Religion and had the first fruites of the protestant Spiritte accuse you for adding to Gods word the Epistle of S. Iames the Reuelation of S. Iohn and other partes whereunto you can giue no reasonable satisfaction vnles you acknowledge an errour in reprehending vs Negat â—â—â— Luth. in praef ad ep Iac. in 1. Pec. 1. Illiâ— praef in Iac. Kem. Exa sess 4 Magd. c. l. 2. c. 4. and subscribe to that which wee knowe to be the truth For I demaund how you prooue against Luther Kemnitius the Centurists and other Lutherans that the Epistle vnder the name of S. Iames is the word of God If you say that you knowe it by testimonie of Antiquitie they will answere that no such thing was then generallie beleeued Eusebius l â— Hist c. 25 â— Hiero. de â—e Viris ilâ—st in Iaâ—obe and will call to witnesse Eusebius S. Hierom and other auncient writers To answere that you know it by
to good which caÌ„ be from no bad cause the prophecies of the old and newe Testament and whatsoeuer els learned men vse to bringe to this purpose And taking in this collection all that which is distinct from the increated authoritie of allmightie God I call it the condition circumstance or application of the formall obiect which formall obiect is the diuine veritie reuealing Further I must not goe because the diuine veritie is infinite and therfore able to moue any vnderstanding and the circumstances are beyond all exceptioÌ„ to warrant the prudeÌ„ce of my choise I haue vsed some Schoole termes in this answeare but you must pardon me for it is a Schoole point as you knowe and fit for Schollers onelie 92. A fourth exception is that you seeke the will of God more sincerely and therefore enioy the assistance which wee doe not because wee relie onely on men This argument is allreadie answeared in effect wee depend on men proposing and as instrumentall or ministeriall causes vnder Iesus Christ the greate Pastor And sure the Apostles on whome the primitiue Church depended were men allso But principallie wee depend on Iesus Christ and the holie Ghost assisting in aÌ„d by the Church For your sincere seeking of the truth it is a friuolous pretense since you do not take the meanes by God ordained to finde it Iesus Christ hath left it in the Church and if you would finde it you should looke it there Your pretence of prayer and the guift of interpretation and conference of places are trickes onelie to delude fooles for all wise meÌ„ knowe that Christ hath bestowed all helpes necessary vppon the Church and that in the Church are the power of interpretation and sanctitie and generallie all the guifts of the holy Ghost Wherefore you are first to prooue that you are the Church before you challenge the Spirit and his guifts till then wee number you amoÌ„ge those who come in at the windowe to rob and steale the soules out of men and indeuour allso as much as lies in you to rob the Church of God of her endowments 93. For the sanctitie of our Church wherewith you would equall yours I remitte you to Baronius Martyrologe and desire to see the like catalogue from your holie number But who knowes not that it is proper to the Catholique Church to breede Saints and that thence are those which out of all Nations tribes and tongues are chosen to raigne with Iesê° Christ Yet are not all in this Church truelie Saincts there are degrees of incorpotion and vnion to the heade and members Some are vnited by faith and charitie some by faith and exterior communion but want Charitie and they haue some kinde of motioÌ„ and influence from Christ the heade for without him none can beleeue a right and they are part of the great mysticall body the Church Yet they want the principall vnion which vnion will be perfect and constant in heauen where the Church shall see the deitie of the sonne of God But here good and bad are mixt yet so that the Church militant shall neuer be without many good and holie men according to the Scripture This is the couenant which I will make with the house of Israel saith our Lord Ierem. 30. v. 33. speaking of the Christian Church I will giue my lawe in their bowells and in the hart of them will write it and will be to them a God and they shall be my people Ezech. 37. v 27. And in Ezechiel I will giue my sanctification in the middest of them for euer 94. If you aske me whether the Church may be said to sinne since there be sinners in the Church I answeare no. If any sinne it is not by meanes of the Church but contrarie to her direction and Spirit And if any erre it is not by her meanes but contrarie to her Spirit and proposition So that neither the sinne nor the errour of particular men can iustlie be attributed vnto the Church since they worke not in those cases by the common iudgment and direction of the Church but by their owne priuate apprehensions and affections contrary to the Churches will and rule As when one in a well-instituted common-wealth doth secretlie steale and murder it is his priuate action it is not the action of the common wealth but flatlie against the will and lawes of it This onely I will note in this matter that euery mortall sinne doth not destroy all incorporatioÌ„ and therefore a man may be in mortall sinne and yet in the Church for he which beleeueth doth participate some kinde of life though imperfect as I said before Neither is it necessarie that in each part all vitall powers be for a mans foote doth participate life but cannot see nor heare nor imagine as doth the heade 95. In the next place insteede of an argumeÌ„t I note your vanitie in heaping things together to winne the vulgar Your silken discourses vnles they be flowred with histories of Popes Friars and Monkes are not gaudie and therefore this embrodery must not be wanting I will not loose tyme to rehearse the particulars but in generall answeare thus First if amonge twelue Apostles pict out by our Sauiour Iesus Christ one was naught and proued an Apostata it can be no meruaile if amonge more then two hundred Popes elected by men some fewe did amisse Neither can their faults preiudice Papall authoritie aÌ„d the generall doctrine of the Church or redound vnto it more then did the Apostasie of Iudas preiudice Apostolicall power and christianitie or redound vnto the rest You should haue considered rather that many Bishops of the Roman See are knowne Saincts 96. I answeare secondlie for Friars that their rule is good holie and beyond all iust exception and therefore if any not conforming themselues to this rule by weaknes faile and liue amisse the profession is no more to be coÌ„demned for it then is Christianitie for the wicked conuersation of many that professe it And the stories of Friars which you haue are but fewe some dozen peraduenture were they a thousand the matter were not greate whereas in all the Catholique world are Friars And touching Monkes it is the same their Rule is holie and their conuersation such as crownes and scepters haue ben left for to learne it 33. milliaÌ„ AbbatiaruÌ„ 14. millia Prioratuum Genebr an 524. Ordinis Praedicatorum feruntur fuisse 4143. coenobia id an 1216. Franciscanorum suo tempore 90. millia fuisse scribit Sabellicus Ennead dec 9. l. 9. their institution hath bred many Saincts and their Order hath ben so genenerally spred that they haue had many thousand monasteries at a time Among so many to haue happened a few disorders is no wonder but to thinke that your stories put case they were in parte true which is not worth examination can preiudice the rule and institution is very childish 97. Of Catholiques in generall I haue spokeÌ„ all readie they were not all saincts