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A44973 An humble apology for non-conformists with modest and serious reflections on the Friendly debate and the continuation thereof / by a lover of truth and peace. Norton, John, 1606-1663. 1669 (1669) Wing H3402; ESTC R20176 79,882 174

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of the Debate tells us in his Continuation p. 383. that at first the chief promoters of stinted Liturgies were renowned for their constant and unwearied preaching every day in the week and someeimes twice and as probably this was one thing that advanced the credit and esteem of Liturgies in former times As I am perswaded one great cause why many do not esteem of the Liturgy so much now is that so many great Conformists and sticklers for it are Pluralists and Nonresidents and divers of them either preach not at all or very seldom and then too some of them preach against Preaching and saw down the branch of that Tree upon which they stand so high above their Brethren And on the other side those who scruple some things in the Liturgy and Ceremonies are such constant and zealous Preachers and that when Bonds and Imprisonments abide them for their so doing Quest But is it not indeed the Bond of the Covenant the Scottish Covenant wherewith our English Presbyterians have bound their Souls the great or onely Cause that makes so many Nonconformists Answ The Covenant mentioned was not the cause of the War the Battel at Edge-hill was fought before the Covenant came into England And whereas the Covenant was enter'd into in Forty Two and Forty Three there have been Nonconformists ever since Bishop Hooper and the Reformation in King Edward the Sixth's days There are some amongst the Covenanters that can conform to the Liturgy and submit to Episcopal Government And the greater part of Nonconformists Preachers at this day never took the Covenant Quest. What is the reason that divers Nonconformists read Logick in private Houses Is not this contrary to their Oath takes in the University Cont. p. 10. edit 4. Answ I have consulted as able as any in the Universities and by their Offices as likely to know as any about the matter and am told That the Oath there prohibits the setting up of another University in Opposition to the Universities and Reading in order to the taking Degrees elsewhere The words are at Oxford They shall not solennes Lectiones resumere which doth not make Dr. Busby perjured for initiating his Scholars some time in Logick before they go to the University Nor the several Professors at Gresham-Colledge who read as solemn Lectures surely as a Nonconformist doth in a private house Besides I hear but of one Nonconformist that at present doth teach Youth in that manner privately Quest What security can his Majesty and the Parliament have that Nonconformists will not under pretence of Conscience or Covenant seditiously endeavour an Alteration of Church-Government but that they will live quietly and peaceably in their places Answ They are ready to give the ancient Legal-Security the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy and that is more than the Papists will do and as much as is required of the generality of the rest of the Nation notwithstanding their having taken the Engagement in the late times which yet many Presbyterians now Nonconformists and Ejected Ministers would never do though some of them lost their Places for their refusal Moreover many of them since have taken an Oath not to endeavour any Alteration of Government in Church and State and yet are not trusted to preach publickly much less to enjoy any Ecclesiastical Benefice And the rest that scruple some words or phrases in that Oath are yet ready besides the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy to swear that they will live quietly and peaceably in their places and not under colour or pretence of the Covenant or any pretence whatever endeavour by force or sediciously and tumultuously any Alteration of Government in Church and State Quest. Is the Act of Uniformity and the Oxford Act to be strictly and rigorously pressed upon and executed on all transgressors Answ If it be then what will become of many Conformists who use other Rites and Ceremonies than what are by Law required and of them who use other Forms of Prayer then are there prescribed and of all those Ministers that do not reade the Common-Prayer either publickly or privately morning and evening and so those Lecturers who do not monthly reade their Assent Consent c. And as for the Oxford Act Oath I have heard from a very learned person a Conformist that the Bishops themselves come within the compass of it as many as have not assented and consented c. as oft as they came within five miles of their Sees or any ther Corporation This I say not to bring the Bishops within but to bring others out of the reach of that Act or rather to encline if it nay be our Fathers and Brethren to use their interest with his Majesty and Parliament to remove those Laws which are a Partition-wall betwixt the Conformist Nonconformist Quest. But are not the Nonconformists sinners and transgressors of the Divine Law as oft as they withdraw from actual communion with the Church of England being as many of them confess a true Church Ans Many of our learned Doctors hold Rome to be a true Church as a Woman is a true Woman though an Harlot and a Man a true Man though overspread with Leprosie And yet being we cannot actually hold external communion with them without either subscribing to many false Tenets or joyning in a corrupt and Idolatrous Service we withdraw from them without sin Our withdrawing is not to be charged with sin or schism although too we were the minor part who withdrew and against the determination of a pretended General Councel And I believe it would be a hard matter to prove that many of those Meetings which are now commonly called Conventicles want any of the essential requisites to a true Church and yet do not think themselves Schismaticks for not holding actual communion with them because not countenanced by the Law And if a Legal Establishment be absolutely necessary to the being of a true Christian Church then there was no true Church at Rome till Constantine's dayes which I suppose you will judge very unreasonable to assert Quest Is it possible there should be Unity without Uniformity in Rites and Ceremonies c. Answ Yes There is Unity amongst the Protestant Reformed Churches beyond the Seas that follow Calvin and yet divers forms of Prayer and divers Rites The Author of the Debate will not take it well if a man should not say there is Unity at home amongst Conformists and yet the Cathedrals and Country-Parish-Churches differ in some Rites and in their mode of Worship and in the Parish-Churches there are diversity of Ceremonies and Usages in the Worship of God In some Churches they stand up at the Hymns in others not In some they reade the Hymns and Psalms Minister and People antiphonatim in others not In some in most they reade the Prayer for Christs Catholick Church if at all before Sermon but I know where 't is constantly read after And it is well known that none boast more of
committed Surely they are as tolerable in a Church where the Supreme Power thinks good to establish that Order as are Chancellors Commissaries c. But in case that some Presbyterians of old held them of use in the Apostles days this alone without an Institution and an Injunction to perpetuate them doth not make them or any other Ecclesiastical Officers unalterable for we see that the Office of Widdows is laid aside in the Church notwithstanding Quest Did not the Presbyterians wholly lay aside the use of the Lords Supper And was it not for want of Ruling Elders Answ They celebrated the Lords Supper in London and that too in some Churches once a Month and frequently at Oxford and I suppose in many other places Possibly the expectation of a settlement might hinder the Administration of that Ordinance for a time in many places Bur I knew a Parish where it was a long time disused though desired because the Parishoners did not provide though oft urged unto it by the Minister decent and necessary Utensils for the Celebration of it Quest Do the Nonconformists decry all use of Reason in Theology Answ They use frequently Reasons in their Sermons Indeed they allow Reason but the second place in Divinity to Revelation they give the first Reason and Philosophy they make to be the Handmaids but Divinity they honour as their Soveraign Lady and Queen Reason is the Counsellor but Revelation is the Law-giver We say the Light of Reason is as the Light of a Glow-Worm or of a Candle or if you will needs have it as the Light of the Moon but the Light of Divine Revelation is as the Light of the Sun when it shineth in its full strength Dr. T. And with a reverend and learned Doctor we allow the use of a Candle although we would have it snuffed and when it is set up in the house we would not have the Window shut either to keep our or at least to darken the Light of the Sun We prefer feeding on Manna before feeding on Acorns and Husks the Commands of St. Paul before the Precepts of Plato the Mass of Gold in the Mine before a few pieces of Silver scattered here and there in the Studies of Philosophers Quest Do the Congregations of those that dissent from the established Worship consist mostly of Army Saints Answ I have heard one that hath reason to know upon many Accounts better than the Author of the Debate say That there is scarce a fifth person of those that meet privately that was engaged in the late Differences And that the greatest part of the late Army are at this day Members of Parochial Churches is an even Wager Quest Do the Arminians or Calvinists come nearest to the Doctrine of the Church of England Answ The profound pious and learned Doctor Samuel Ward that was the La. Margaret's Professor of Divinity in Cambridge whose Determinations are set out by the great pains and care of the Right Reverend Seth Lord Bishop of Sarisbury in a Sermon of his Ad Clerum and dedicated by himself to the University of Cambridge testifies That as the whole Church of God ever since St. Austine so in particular the National Church of England and the University of Cambridge from the Reformation and all the Professors except onely one Baro were against Arminius his Tenets And this Baro within two years was forced to leave the Chair by the Power and Authority of Archbishop Whitgift Illud etiam verè adjicere possum plus uni Augustino jam veterano in ista causa versatissimo tribuendum esse quàm centùm Corvinis Grotiis Vorstiis Bertiis Tilenis id genus recentioribus Dogmatistis Accedat illud coronidis loco Augustino semper ad baesisse hac ex-parte Ecclesiam Universalem ab ejus temporibus Ecclesiam item Anglicanam ab initio Reformationis c. Quest Is the case of the Donatists and the case of the Non-conformists alike Answ The Donatists as they had no cause in regard of the Faith by reason of any dangerous Doctrines or Practices imposed on them to cease from communicating with any part of the Catholick Church so they divided from the whole Church with the breach of Charity condemning it for no Church and drawing the Communion wholly to themselves The Nonconformists do not condemn the Church of England as no Church they do not confine the Communion to themselves they humbly pray a Reformation of some things which they conceive amiss and are willing to have Communion with them as Parts of the Catholick Church saving the Practices wherein they differ they leave them to their Liberty and desire a Liberty for themselves to serve God according to their Consciences The Presbyterians shewed their Charity in their earnest endeavours to save the life of Dr. Hewit an Episcopal Dr for which purpose they joyned in an Address to O. C. the only Address they ever made unto him Neither Presbyterians nor Congregationists charge the Episcopalians for being Schismaticks because they do not communicate with their Congregations and yet they look upon themselves as true Churches of Christ and both for Doctrine and Discipline to come as near the Scripture-Patern as themselves They offered to Unite and Reconcile with the Episcopal-Clergy upon Christian terms before His Majesties Return and since As for out Brethren of New England they are of Age let them answer for themselves As for our Congreational Brethren at home I lately heard that Dr. Goodwin should profess to hold Communion even with the Lutheran Churches And Dr. Owen professeth against all Impositions and that 't is his Judgment That the Episcopals and Presbyterians be left to worship God as they judge in their Consciences best That for his part he judgeth no man for his Conformity provided he be not a Persecuter of those that cannot Finally The Presbyterians for themselves desire much rather a Reformation or well stated Comprehension than a Toleration and are against Schism and Separation truly so called as much as any which they have sufficiently evidenced by their constantly declared Opinions and Practice They would be glad to see the day when being eased of burdensome Impositions they might have opportunity to manifest this their sincere desire of Union and Coalition with the Church of England A Postscript to the Author of the Friendly Debate SIR YOu have dealt with us as the Jewes did with our Blessed Saviour blindfolded us smitten us in effect bid us Prophesie who it is that smote us Some ghesses have been who you are by the roughness of your hand and the smartness of the blow I have not taken upon me thus to shoot in the dark and yet pretend to hit the Mark Nor will I go about to pull off the Vizor you put upon your own face but to wipe off the dirt which you have cast on ours To this purpose I pray you after these premised Reflections by me on some Passages in your Friendly Debate c.