Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	catholic_n	communion_n	external_a	3,566	5	9.8048	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A25215	The mischief of impositions, or, An antidote against a late discourse, partly preached at Guild-hall Chappel, May 2, 1680, called The mischief of separation	Alsop, Vincent, 1629 or 30-1703.	1680 (1680)	Wing A2917; ESTC R16170	115,195	136

Corruptions as they have many Errors in the Doctrine of Faith which yet does not in his judgment destroy the essential points of the Christian Doctrine 3 Many of them declare that they hold Communion with our Churches to be lawful And then 1. Who is the true Catholick Christian and who is the real Schismatick He that holds Communion with all Protestant Churches occasionally lawful and accordingly holds Communion with them actually as Providence gives him opportunity or he that denying all Churches to be truly such except his own refuses Communion with them for want of a Ceremony or two and the necessary consequence of a Ceremony A Bishop 2. That they hold Communion with this Church to be lawful is one of those dubious Propositions which will do the conceding Party no harm nor them that make use of it any service First many of them declare so and many declare otherwise but they do neither of them prejudge the other nor intend to bind them to their private sentiments and it 's as good an argument to prove Communion unlawful because many declare against it as 't is to prove it lawful because many declare for it Secondly they declare Communion lawful but do they declare total Communion lawful The same persons will tell us that both these Propositions are true Communion is lawful and Communion is unlawful Communion in some parts of worship is so in others not And thirdly they will further tell us that Communion with some Parish-Churches is lawful with others unlawful that there are not the same Doctrines preached the same Ceremonies urged the same rigid terms of Communion in all Churches exacted And lastly that occasional Communion is or may be lawful where a stated and fixed Communion is not so and they give this reason for their judgment and practice because to hold Communion with one Church or sort of Christians exclusively to all others is contrary to their true Catholick principles which teach them to hold Communion though not equally with all tolerable Churches and that there are some things tolerable which are not eligible wherein they can bear with much for peace-sake but chuse rather to sit down ordinarily with purer administrations It is a dangerous thing to give us uncertain ambulatory Notions of Schism other than what the Scripture has given us both because the Scriptures alone can inform us what is the Notion of a true Church and by consequence what must be the true Notion of sinful Separation from it and because these unstable mutable Notions of Schism will make that to be Schism in one Countrey which is an innocent thing in another and that to be Schism one year which perhaps the next may prove a good and Catholick practice That was Schism in England in Edward the 6th's days which was not so in Queen Maries and that was Schism in Her Reign which became none in the days of Her Successor And we may be Schismaticks here in England when if we cross the water we shall be none though we practise the same Worship and retain all that which at home would have fastened that brand upon us And if we travel through Germany though perhaps we cannot be Schismaticks and Catholicks twice a day because the miles are very long yet may we be both backwards and forwards forty times in a Twelvemonth and continue the same men both in principle and practice that we were when we went our pilgrimage It is little to our purpose what the Doctor is pleased to tell us what one told him viz. that An. Dom. 1663. Divers Preachers met at London to consider how far it was lawful or their duty to communicate with the Parish-Churches where they lived in the Liturgy and Sacraments or that 20 Reasons were brought in to prove that it is a duty in some persons to join with some Parish-Churches three times a year in the Lord's Supper For 1. If they consider'd how far it was lawful I hope they spoke something at least to the Question and left it not as they found it a Question forsaken of its Answer which ought to be individual Companions 2. They met to consider what was lawful for or a duty to themselves not for or to others in whose names they had no commission to hear and determine the Question 3. If they inquired how far it was lawful or a duty they supposed that it was not unlimitedly so for to what end should they inquire how far they might go if they had once thought they could go through 4. And the design of the twenty reasons abundantly proves it for it was but some persons whose duty it was adjudged to be to receive the Sacrament thrice a year and it was but in some parishes neither where those some persons might communicate so that there might be some others many others possibly the greatest number whose duty it was not so to joyn and other some parishes many others and and possibly the greatest number with whom it was not lawful or not a duty to hold Communion The Case then is this a Christian may be placed in such circumstances that he may receive the Sacrament from some persons who will indulge him in the questionable Terms in such places where he cannot enjoy that ordinance at all if he do not receive it there and thus with many restrictions limitations distinctions and clauses a Case may be put wherein the twenty reasons may conclude some thing but yet nothing to the Doctors advantage But what effect what operation had these twenty reasons upon the Company Why none of them seemed to dissent that is they did not enter their several protestations nor formally declare against the Reasons of their Brother like wise and wary persons they would advise upon them They came to consider of the lawfulness of Communion and they would go away and consider of the strength of the Reasons propounded to convince them I see it 's more dangerous than I had thought it to have been to come into the parish Churches lest naked presence and silent appearing in those assemblies should be brought against us as an interpretative approbation of whatsoever is there done or spoken The Doctor adds that they had such another meeting after the plague and fire and if it were but such another there was no great harm in 't at which they agreed that communion with our Church was in it self lawful and good for which he quotes Plea for Peace p. 240. But here the Doctor is tardy by his favour and wrongs his Relator manifestly by nibbling off the last and most considerable words of the sentence viz. when it would do no more harm than good And we believe it lawful in that Case to hold Communion with any Church in the world so that now we must come to another enquiry and start a new question when there are one or two already up before the Dogs viz. whether Communion with the Parish-Churches will do more harm than good which it

will certainly do 1. When such Communion shall persuade the Parish-Churches that their Frame is eligible and not only tolerable that they are righteous and need no repentance pure as well as true Churches of Christ and need no Reformation 2. When that Communion shall be so managed that the persons communicating must be obliged to separate from all other Churches which they judge to be of a purer mold and wherein they may enjoy all Christ's Ordinances with much greater and clearer satisfaction to their Consciences and more notable advantages for edification 3. When such Communion shall visibly harden the Papists in their superstitious usages As kneeling at the Sacrament bowing before Altars Churches the East and at the word Jesus has apparently done and so much T.G. the Doctor 's grand Antagonist has professed in his Dispute about Idolatry 4. When such Communion and Conformity shall notably prejudice the Christian Religion in general and that this would have been the effect of an universal Conformity was well express'd by a Conformable Minister of good Note in the Church who told his Friend a Captain in His Majesties Service That he was heartily glad that so many Ministers had refus'd to Conform upon the Terms proposed And being ask'd with some wonderment a reason of his strange expression he answer'd thus Not that thereby they had more good Livings to scramble for as one answer'd Had all Conform'd the People would have thought there had been nothing in Religion that it had been onely a thing to talk of in the Pulpit to serve a State design but now by throwing up their Livings and exposing themselves and Families to outward ruine rather than Conform to the things imposed not agreeable as they apprehend to the Gospel they had preached they have convinced the world there is a Reality in Religion and thereby given a check to Atheism To shut up this Discourse If the Doctor would have us Conform as far as we judge it lawful when such Compliance is cloathed with all its particular circumstances we are willing to it provided the Doctor can secure us that such Compliance shall be accepted in full satisfaction of the debt But we doubt it must not be the Dean of St. Paul's but the Convocation there that must assign the Limits Bounds Terms and Measures of our Conformity If hearing a Sermon as we have occasion and going as much further as Conscience warranted by the Word will permit us would excuse us from being reviled and railed at as Schismaticks Rebels Traytors and what not would do it it would be done nay it is done but if he has no Commission to treat with us and compound the matter I fear he has spoiled the Wit and Ingenuity of his late Allegory and fought a Skirmish without the Command of his General for though he stand upon very high Ground he stands not as yet on the highest and there are higher than he SECT VI. The Grounds of the present Separation assigned by the Doctor Examined and Cleared THE main Question so solemnly propounded by the Reverend Doctor having given us the slip we are entertained with another What are the Grounds of the present Separation and the utmost he can find in the best Writers of the several Parties amounts but to these two 1. That although they are in a State of Separation from the Church yet this Separation is not Schism And he courteously supposes them to have one Reason for this Principle from the Author of Evangelical Love p. 68. Our Lord Christ Instituted only Congregational Churches or particular Aslemblies for Divine Worship which having the sole Church-power in themselves they are under no Obligation of Communion with other Churches but only to preserve Peace and Charity with them and from the Author of The true and only way of Concord p. 111. That to devise new Species of Churches beyond Parochial or Congregational without God's Authority and to impose them on the World yea in his Name and call all Dissenters Schismaticks is a far worse usurpation than to make and Impose new Ceremonies This is all the reason the Doctor can find to justifie their Separation to be no Sin But does the vast weight of their Cause hang upon one single string I can shew him where he may find more assigned by the Author of Evangelical Love whom he quotes 1. That there are many things in all Parochial Churches that openly stand in need of Reformation which these Parochial Churches neither do nor can nor have power to Reform And who would joyn with them that have no power to Reform themselves 2. Many things in the constant total Communion of Parochial Churches are imposed on the Consciences and Practices of men which are not aceording to the mind of Christ And will Christ Condemn them for Schismaticks who are ready to come up to his Commands because they dare advance no further 3. That there is no Evangelical Church-Discipline administred in such Parochial Churches which yet is a necessary means unto the Edification of the Churches appointed by Christ himself And are they Schismaticks who separate not from but to any of Christ's means for their Edification 4. The Rule and Government which such Parochial Churches are under in the room of that which ought to be in and among themselves viz. by Bishops-Courts Chancellors Commissaries is unknown to the Scriptures And are they Schismaticks who refuse an unscriptural for a Scriptural Rule and Government 5. There is a total Deprivation of the Peoples Liberty to chuse their own Pastors whereby they are deprived of all use of their Light and Knowledge for providing for their own Edification And it 's hard that men shall be made Schismaticks because they would use their Reasons that is unless they will be something worse than Men they cannot be good Christians 6. That there is a want of due means of Edification in many of those Parochial Congregations and yet none shall be allowed to provide themselves better And is it not very severe for Christians to be Damned because they would be more certainly and easily Saved Thus then we see there are other many other Reasons alledged to justifie such Separation to be no Schism though it pleased the Doctor to wink at them and Assign only this one which yet it 's well if he can Confute In order to which He thinks That to clear the practice of Separation from being a Sin two things are necessary to be done § 1. To prove that a Christian has no obligation to external Communion beyond a Congregational Church And is this the Duty incumbent upon them They think they have done enough if they prove there 's an Obligation lies upon them to hold external Communion in that Church whereof they are Members and let others prove that they are obliged to Communion beyond those Bounds If the Dissenters enlarge their Communion as far as Christ enlarged the Churches let them who have enlarged the Bounds of the Churches prove

common enemies nor make it indifferent to dissenters whether they be smothered in the house or forced to venture their necks by leaping out at the windows for so have the miserable Hungarians been tempted to think it better to live nay to dye once under the Ottoman sword than to be always dying under the Austrian tyranny I shall then begin to believe that man is afraid of a Paroxysme of the Gout who will retrench his intemperance to prevent it and will then suppose them real and sincere in complaining of what they feel or fear when they will forbear or do at least some very little thing to remove the one and obviate the other But Dominion even in a Dungeon is too sweet a morsel to be spit up again unless God gives a strong vomit A prelatical spirit will be persecuting when in exile at Frankfurt and the Jesuites thought it worthy their ambition to vex the Seculars even in Wisbich Castle Let then the Dr. conclude with that grave sentence All parties pretend a Zeal for Peace so they may have it in their own way by which it appears that it 's not peace they aim at but victory nor unity so much as having their own wills I will therefore compound with him at ten shillings per pound that is let him take one half of this for truth and resign ●●e the other That one partie has a Zeal for Peace so they may have it in their own way and then I shall gain this by the bargain That it's ●ot Peace they seek but Victory nor Unity so much as having their own wills Peace then without bringing in St. Austin for a voucher is a good thing yes a very good thing it is if we could catch it but thus have I seen one sport with his Dog shewing him a crust which when the poor Cur has zealously jumpt to reach he holds it up higher and never intends him one snap of it Our Romish adversaries it seems do continually upbraid us with our Schisms and Separations Let 'em look at home To take off which reproach the Dr. thinks it would be happy if all those who agree in renouncing the errors and corruptions of the Roman Church could as easily join together in the great duties of our common Religion that is in our prayers and praises and Sacraments and all solemn acts of divine worship And will this make us all happy Then I proclaim to all Protestants from this day forward solid happiness for we all join together in the great duties of our common Religion for though we join not in the private fancies niceties and opinions of some one partie in the great duties common to all Protestants we are fully agreed Agreed in the matter of our prayers if not in the form in the matter of our praises though not in the mode in Sacraments though perhaps not in superstitions annexed to them in the Acts of Divine Worship though not in the parts of humane worship in the substance not in Ceremonie and in one God one Christ though not in one Place which probably we never shall till St. Pauls be built and probably not then neither but must adjourn our local meeting to the day of the General Assembly Thus are we all agreed who are agreed and so far as we are agreed in renouncing the errors and corruptions of Rome but if it shall appear that we are not agreed in this in vain do we expect agreement in other things There are two things at which the Church might possibly aim whenever merciful providence should recover it out of the gloomy shades of persecution the one Purity the other external Splendor and Glory But it 's sadly observable that Church-men who always engross to themselves the conduct and management of affairs commonly begin at the wrong end of their work Securing in the first place their own Grandeur and Dignity and leaving the Reforming the Abuses which had silently crept in as a matter of less concernment to their better leisure So was it in the days of Constantine Queen Elizabeth so was it in our own when the Clergy fell a scrambling for preferments as boys for a largess of nuts and apples whilst Reformation lay a bleeding a gasping a dying for they had other Irons in the Fire which must not cool so the Sorbonist in his Philosophia Vulgaris refutata informs us Jam postquam horrendae tyra●norum Carnificinae desierunt pax omnimoda parta est c. That is When once the bloody shambles of Tyrants by God's Providence were shut up and welcome Peace began to shine upon the late clouded Churches they wisely fell to work with exterior things and busied themselves about Religious Rites Ceremonies Ornaments about matters of Order and Subordination about the Degrees of Ministers their outward Splendor the power and efficacy of Church-Discipline about Laws Canons and Ecclesiastical Government about the Union and Combination of Churches about the exalting some in preeminence above others and subjection of the poorer to the greater and richer about maintaining Uniformity and preventing Schisms And this part indeed the Church happily effected and when they should have proceeded to the other of Reformation a dismal hurricane by the irruption of the Northern and barbarous Nations overspread the face of the Church with Egyptian darkness that it was some Ages before she could recover her former brightness This is the sad Fate that commonly attends great and general Deliverances Churchmen are cumber'd with many things and neglect the one thing necessary and instead of reducing Doctrine Worship and Discipline to their Original Integrity to what they were in the beginning are otherwise employ'd about setling Liturgies re-inforcing Ceremonies exacting Uniformity advancing their own Dignity till God in righteous judgment removes from them the opportunities of acting for themselves who slighted those inviting junctures wherein they might have served their God And most men have noted that within these twenty years Providence offer'd them three seasons wherein with great ease they might have healed our Breaches the first after His Majesties happy Restauration the second after the Plague Fire and War the third after the Discovery of the late Horrid and Popish Plot but yet it pleased not God to give them with the opportunities to see the things that belong'd to our Peace We see then Peace is a Commodity everywhere exposed to view They complain that we cheapen it but will not buy And indeed we would not out-bid our Purses nor buy Gold too dear We complain that they offer it but at such unreasonable Rates that we cannot reach it but so have many done that have got rich Goods in their hands set 'em too high outstand a good Market and at last perhaps may be glad to put 'em off for an old Song But it 's time to come to my self and attend the Doctor who after an eloquent Preamble in commendation of Peace which all men grant and of the danger of Divisions