to the Ministers pleasure to deny him Absolution if he desire it Our Churches direction is according to the 13. Can. of the venerable Council of Nice both here and in the next that follows Reply But the question is whether he shew himself truly penitent or not If we have not here neither a judgment of discretion for the conduct of our own actions What do we with reason Why are we trusted in the Office and Whose judgment must we follow The Bishop cannot have leisure to become the Judge whether this man be penitent It must then be the Minister or the man himself And must we absolve every man that saith he repenteth Then we must believe an incredible profession which is against reason Some are known Infidels and in their health profess that they believe not the Scripture to be true and make a mock at Jesus Christ and perhaps in a sickness that they apprehend no danger in will send for the Minister in scorn to say I repent and force him to absolve them that they may deride him and the Gospel Some of us have known too many of those that have for twenty or thirty years been common drunkards seldom sober a week together and still say when they came to themselves that they were sorry for it and did unfeignedly repent and as they said in health so they said in sickness dying with in a few daies or weeks after they were last drunk must we absolve all these Some dye with a manifest hatred of an Holy Life reviling at those that are carefull to please God yet saying they hate them not as holy but because they are all Hypocrites or the like And yet will say they repent of their sins Some forbear not their accustomed swearing and cursing while they profess repentance Some make no restitution for the wrong which they say they repent of And must we take all these for truly penitent If not the Minister must judge What you mean by your saying Our Churches direction is according to the 13th Canon of the venerable Council of Nice both here and in the next that follows we know not the second Council of Nice you cannot mean its Can. being uncertain and the 13th is of no such sense And the 13th Can. of the first Council of Nice is only that lapsed Catechumens shall be 3 years inter and ientes before they pray again with the Catechumens This shews they then took not up with every word of seeming penitence as true repentance but what it is to your purpose we know not nor is here any other Can. in that Council for you The 11th Can. is sufficiently against you The lapsed that truly repented were to remain among the penitent for three years and seaven years more if they were fideles c. Ab omnibus vero illud praecipue observetur ut animus eorum fructus poenitentiae attendatur quicunque enim cum omni timore lacrimis perseverantibus operibus bonis Conversationem suam non verbis solis sed opere veritate demonstrant cum tempus statutum etiam ab his fuerit impletum orationibus jam coeperint communicare licebit etiam Episcopo humanius circa res aliquot cogitare We know this rigor as to time was unjust and that to the dying it was abated but you see here that bare words that were not by seriousness and by deeds made credible were not to be taken as sufficient marks of penitence of which it was not the person himself that was to be the Judge The form of Absolution in the Liturgy is more agreeable to the Scriptures then that which they desire it being said in St. John 20. Whose sins you remit they are remitted not whose sins you pronounce remitted and the Condition needs not to be expressed being alway necessarily understood Reply It is a Controversy among the Learnedst Expositors how much of that of John 20. was proper to the Apostles and such others as were then to have the spirit in an extraordinary manner who did remit sin effectively by remitting the punishment of it by casting out Devils healing the sick c. according to that of Jam. 5. 14 15. Is any sick among you let him call for the Elders of the Church and let them pray for him and anoint him with Oyl in the name of the Lord And the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up and if he have committed sins they shall be forgiven him If besides this remitting them effectively the rest be no other then a Ministerial pronouncing them forgiven by God according to his Covenant in the Gospel then you cannot plead the phrase of a Text which respecteth another way of Remission then we pretend to But must phrase it according to the nature of the thing and the sense of other Scriptures also that fullier open it There are three waies of pardoning 1. By grant or Guift whether by a general Act of pardon or a particular 2. By sentence 3. By execution that is preventing or taking off the penalty The first of these is done already by God in the Gospel The Second God doth principally and his Ministers instrumentally as his Messengers The third the taking off the penalty they can do no otherwise in the Case before us then by praying that God will take it off and using his ordinary means So that it is most evident that this Absolution that Ministers are to perform can be no other then to pronounce the penitent Believer to be absolved by God according to his Covenant And if there be no other should we not speak as intelligibly as we can Indeed there is more in absolving the excommunicate for then the Church both judiciously and executively remitteth the penalty of excommunication to which also the Text John 20. may have much respect but the penalty of damnation can be no otherwise remitted by us then as is expressed And indeed the thing is of such exceeding weight that it behoveth us to deal as intelligibly and openly in it as we can And therefore we admire that you should say the Condition needs not be expressed being always necessarily understood by necessarily do you mean necessitate naturali irresistibili so that all the wicked men in the world cannot chuse but understand us to speak conditionally Surely this is none of your meaning if it were it were far from truth Or do you mean not de necessitate vel actitudine eventus but de debito ex obligatione no doubt but it is necessary as a duty and also ad finem as a means And therefore it is that we desire it may be expressed And doubtless you think not that all men do their duties and understand all that they ought to understand no not in this particular If you mean that all sick men may be rationally supposed to understand it this can never be believed by us that are acquainted personally and have been with
we desire no other rule to decide the Controversie by As to your Citation 1 Socrat. there tells us of the alternate singing of the Aruians in the reproach of the Orthodox and that Chrysostome not a Synod compiled Hymnes to be sung in opposition to them in the streets which came in the end to a Tumult and Bloodshed And hereupon he tells us of the original of alternate singing viz. a pretended vision of Ignatius that heard Angels sing in that order And what is all this to alternate reading and praying or to a Divine Institution when here is no mention of reading or praying but of singing Hymnes And that not upon pretence of Apostolical Tradition but a vision of uncertain credit Theodor. also speaketh only of singing Psalmes alternately and not a word of reading or praying so And he fetcheth that way of singing also as Socrat. doth but from the Church at Antioch and not from any pretended doctrine or practise of the Apostles And neither of them speaks a word of the necessitie of it or of forcing any to it so that all these your Citations speaking not a word so much as of the very Subjects in question are marvellously impertinent The words their Worship seem to intimate that singing Psalms is part of our Worship and not of yours we hope you disown it not for our parts we are not ashamed of it your distinction between Hopkin's and David's Psalms as if the Meetre allowed by Authority to be sung in Churches made them to be no more David's Psalms seemeth to us a very hard saying If it be because it is a Translation then the Prose should be none of David's Psalms neither nor any Translation be the Scripture If it be because it is in Meetre then the exactest Translation in Meetre should be none of the Scripture If because it 's done imperfectly then the old Translation of the Bible used by the Common-Prayer-book should not be Scripture As to your reason for the supposed priority 1. Scripture examples telling us that the People had more part in the Psalms than in the Prayers or Readings satisfie us that God and his Church then saw a disparity of Reason 2. Common observation tells us that there is more Order and less hindrance of Edification in the Peoples singing than in their Reading and Praying together vocally It is desired that nothing should be in the Liturgy which so much us seems to countenance the observation of Lent as a religious Fast and this as an expedient to Peace which is in effect to desire that this our Church may be contentious for Peace sake and to divide from the Church Catholick that we may live at unity among our selves For Saint Paul reckons them amongst the lovers of Contention who shall oppose themselves against the Custome of the Churches of God that the religious observation of Lent was a Custome of the Churches of God appeares by the Testimonies following Chrysost Ser. 11. in Heb. 10. Cyrill Catec myst 5. St. August Ep. 119. ut 40. dies ante Pascha observetur Ecclesiae consuetudo roboravit and St. Hierom ad Marcell saies it was secundum traditionem Apostolorum This Demand then tends not to Peace but Dissention The fasting Forty daies may be in imitation of our Saviour for all that is here said to the contrary for though we cannot arrive to his perfection abstaining wholly from meat so long yet we may fast forty daies together either Cornelius his Fast till three of the Clock afternoon or Saint Peter 's fast till noon or at least Daniel 's fast abstaining from Meats and Drinks of delight and thus far imitate our Lord. Reply If we had said that the Church is contentious if it adore God in kneeling on the Lords daies or use not the White Garment Milk and Honey after baptism which had more pretence of Apostolical tradition and were generally used more anciently than Lent would you not have thought we wronged the Church if the purer times of the Church have one Custome and later times a contrary which must we follow or must we necessarily be contentious for not following both or rather may we not by the example of the Church that changeth them be allowed to take such things to be matters of Liberty and not necessity If we must needs conform to the Custome of other Churches in such things or be contentious it is either because God hath so commanded or because he hath given those Churches Authority to command it If the former then what Churches or what Ages must we conforme to If all must concurr to be our patterne it will be hard for us to be acquainted with them so far as to know of such Concurrences And in our Case we know that many do it not If it must be the most we would know where God commandeth us to imitate the greater number though the worse or hath secured us that they shall not be the worst or why we are not tied rather to imitate the purer Ages than the more corrupt If it be said that the Church hath Authority to command us we desire to know what Church that is and where to be found and heard that may command England and all the Churches of his Majesty's Dominions If it be said to be a General Council 1. No General Council can pretend to more Authority than that of Nice whose 20th Canon back'd with Tradition and common pratice now bindes not us and was laid by without any Repeal by following Councils 2. We know of no such things as General Councils at least that have bound us to the religious observation of Lent The Bishops of one Empire could not make a General Council 3. Nor do we know of any such power that they have ever the universal Church there being no visible head of it or Governours to make universal Laws but Christ as Rogers on the 20. Article fore-cited shews our 21. Article saith that General Councils may not be gathered together without the Commandment and Will of Princes and doubtless all the Heathen and Mahomitans and all the contending Christian Princes will never agree together nor never did to let all their Christian Subjects concurre to hold a General Council It saith also and when they be gathered together forasmuch as they be an Assembly of men whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and Word of God they may erre and sometimes have erred even in things pertaining unto God therefore things ordained by them as necessary to Salvation have neither strength nor authority unlesse it may be declared that they be taken out of the Holy Scriptures And if they may erre in things pertaining unto God and ordained by them as necessary to Salvation much more in lesser things And are we contentious if we erre not with them Our 39. Article determineth this Controversie saying It is not necessary that Traditions and Ceremonies be in all places one or utterly like for at all times they have
weaknesse by some unapt Expressions or disorder Which is an evil no way to be compared with the fore-mentioned good considering that it is but in the weak and that if that weaknesse be so great as to require it forms may be imposed on those few without imposing them on all for their sakes as we force not all to use Spectacles or Crutches because some are purblind or lame and considering that God heareth not Prayers for the Rhetorick and handsome Cadencies and neatnesse of Expression but will bear more with some Incuriosity of words which yet we plead not for than with an hypocritical formal heartlesse lip-service For he knoweth the meaning of the Spirit even in the groans which are not uttered in words And for the Common-Prayer our Observation telleth us that though some can use it judiciously seriously and we doubt not profitably yet as to the most of the vulgar it occasioneth a relaxing of their attention and intention and a lazie taking up with a Corps or Image of devotion even the service of the lips while the heart is little sensible of what is said And had we not known it we should have thought it incredible how utterly ignorant abundance are of the sence of the words which they hear and repeat themselves from day to day even about Christ himself and the Essentials of Christianity It is wonderful to us to observe that rational Creatures can so commonly seperate the words from all the sense and life so great a help or hinderance even to the understanding is the awakening or not awakening of the Affections about the things of God And we have already shewed you many unfit Expressions in the Common-Prayer-book especially in the Epistles and Gospels through the faultinesse of your Translations as Eph. 3. 15. Father of all that is called Father in Heaven and Earth And that Christ was found in his Apparel as a man That Mount Sinai is Agar in Arabia and bordereth upon the City now called Jerusalem Gal. 4. 25. This is the Sixth Month which is called Barren Luke 1. And when men be drunk John 2. with many such like which are parts of your publick worship And would you have us hence conclude that the mischiefs of such Expressions are worse than all the benefits of that worship And yet there is this difference in the Cases that weak rash Ministers were but here and there one But the Common-Prayer is the service of every Church and every day had we heard any in extemporary Prayer use such unmeet Expressions we should have thought him worthy of sharp reprehension yea though he had been of the younger or weaker sort Divers other unfit Expressions are mentioned in the Exceptions of the late Arch-Bishop of York and Primate of Ireland and others before spoken of And there is much in the prejudice or diseased Curiosity of some hearers to make words seem Idle Impertinent or Ridiculous which are not so and which perhaps they understand not some thought so of the inserting in the late Prayer-book the private opinion of the Souls departed praying for us and our praying for the benefit of their prayers As for the security which you call for though as is shewed you have given us none at all against such errors in your forms yet we have before shewed you that you have as much as among imperfect men can be expected The same that you have that Physitians shall not murther men and that Lawyers and Judges shall not undoe men and that your Pilate shall not cast away the ship you have the power in your hands of taking or refusing as they please or displease you and of judging them by a known Law for their proved miscarriages according to the quality of them and what would you have more To prevent which mischief the former Ages know no better way than to forbid any Prayers in publick but such as were prescribed by publick Authority Con. Carthag Can. 106. Milen Can. 12. Repl. To what you allege out of two Councils we answer 1. The Acts of more venerable Councils are not now at all observed as Nice 1. Can. ult c. nor many of these same which you cite 2. The Scripture and the constant practice of the more antient Church allowed what they forbid 3. Even these Canons shew that then the Churches thought not our Liturgy to be necessary to their Concord Nor indeed had then any such form imposed on all or many Churches to that end For the Can. of Counc Carth. we suppose you meant Council 3. Can. 23. mentioneth Prayers even at the Alter and alloweth any man to describe and use his own Prayers so he do but first cum instructionibus fratribus eas conferre Take advice about them with the abler Brethren If there had been a stated form before imposed on the Churches what room could there be for this course And even this much seems but a Caution made newly upon some late abuse of Prayer The same we may say de Concil Male Can. 12. If they were but a prudentioribus tractata vel comprobata in Synodo new Prayers might by any man at any time be brought in which sheweth they had no such stated publick Liturgy as is now pleaded for And even this seemeth occasioned by Pelagianisme which by this Caution they would keep out We hope your omission of our 8th desire for the use of the new Translation intimateth your grant that it shall be so But we marvel then that we find among your Concessions the alteration of no part but the Epistles and Gospels As they would have no Saints dayes observed by the Church so no Apocriphal Chapter read in the Church but upon such a reason as would exclude all Sermons as well as Apocripha viz. because the holy Scriptures contain in them all things necessary either in Doctrine to be believed or in duty to be practised if so why so many unnecessary Sermons why any more but reading of Scriptures If notwithstanding their sufficiency Sermons be necessary there is no reason why these Apocriphal Chapters should not be as useful most of them containing excellent discourses and rules of mortality it is heartily to be wished that Sermons were as good if their fear be that by this meanâ— those Books may come to be of equal esteem with the Canon they may be secured against that by the Title which the Church hath put upon them calling them Apocriphal and it is the Church's testimony which teacheth us this difference and to leave them out were to cross the practice of the Church in former Ages Repl. We hoped when our desires were delivered in writing they would have been better observed and understood We asked not that no Apocriphal Chapter may be read in the Church but that none may be read as Lessons for so the Chapters of holy Scripture there read are called in the Book and to read them in the same place under the same title without any sufficient
note of distinction or notice given to the people that they are not Canonical Scripture they being also bound with our Bibles is such a temptation to the vulgar to take them for Gods Word as doth much prevail and is like to do so still And when Papists second it with their confident affirmations that the Apocriphal Bookes are Canonical well refelled by one of you the R. Reverend Bishop of Durham we should not needlesly help on their successe If you cite the Apocripha as you do other humane writings or read them as Homilies when and where there is reason to read such we speak not against it to say that the people are secured by the Churches calling them Apocripha is of no force till experience be proved to be dis-regardable and till you have proved that the Ministers is to tell the people at the reading of every such Chapter that it is but Apocriphal and that the people all understand Greek so well as to know what Apocripha signifieth The more sacred and honourable are these Dictates of the holy Ghost recorded in Scripture the greater is the sin by reading the Apocripha without sufficient distinction to make the people believe that the writings of man are the Revelation and Laws of God And also we speak against the reading of the Apocripha as it excludeth much of the Canonical Scriptures and taketh in such Books in their stead as are commonly reputed fabulous By this much you may see how you lost your Answer by mistaking us and how much you will sin against God and the Church by denying our desire That the Minister should not read the Communion Service at the Communion Table is not reasonable to demand since all the Primitive Church used it and if we do not observe that golden Rule of the venerable Council of Nice Let antient customes prevail till reason plainly requires the contrary We shall give offence to sober Christians by a causelesse departure from Catholick usage and a great advantage to enemies of our Church than our Brethren I hope would willingly grant The Priest standing at the Communion Table seemeth to give us an invitation to the holy Sacrament and minds us of our duty viz. To receive the holy Communion some at least every Sunday and though we neglect our duty it is fit the Church should keep her standing Repl. We doubt not but one place in it self is as lawful as another but when you make such differences as have misleading intimations we desire it may be forborn That all the Primitive Church used when there was no Communion in the Sacrament to say Service at the Communion Table is a crude assertion that must have better proof before we take it for convincing and it is not probable because they had a Communion every Lords day And if this be not your meaning you say nothing to the purpose To prove that they used it when there was none And you your selves devise many things more universally practised than this can at all be fairly pretended to have been The Council of Nice gives no such golden Rule as you mention A Rule is a general applyable to particular Cases the Council only speaks of one particular Let the antient Custom continue in Aegypt Lybia and Pentapolis that the Bishop of Alexandria have the power of them all The Council here confirmeth this particular Custom but doth not determine in general of the Authority of Custom That this should be called a Catholic usage shews us how partially the word Catholick is sometimes taken And that this much cannot be granted as least we advantage the enemies of the Church doth make us wonder whom you take for its enemies and what is that advantage which this will give them But we thank you that here we find our selves called Brethren when before we are not so much as spoken to but your speech is directed to some other we know not whom concerning us your reason is that which is our reason to the contrary you say The Priest standing at the Communion Table seems to give us an Invitation to the holy Communion c. what when there is no Sacrament by himself or us intended no warning of any given no Bread and Wine prepared Be not deceived God is not mocked Therefore we desire that there may be no such service at the Table when no Communion is intended because we would not have such grosse dissimulation used in so holy things as thereby to seem as you say to invite Guests when the Feast is not prepared and if they came we would turn them empty away Indeed if it were to be a private Mass and the Priest were to receive alone for want of Company and it were really desired that the people should come it were another matter Moreover there is no Rubrick requiring this service at the Table It is not reasonable that the word Minister should be only used in the Liturgy for since some parts of the Liturgy may be performed by a Deacon others by none under the Order of a Priest viz. Absolution Consecration it is fit that some such word as Priest should be used for those Offices and not Minister which signifies at large every one that ministers in that holy Office of what Order soever he be The word Curate signifying properly all those who are trusted by the Bishops with Cure of Souls as antiently it signified is a very fit word to be used and can offend no sober person The word Sunday is antient Just Mart. Ap. 2. And therefore not to be left off Repl. The word Minister may well be used in stead of Priest and Curates though the word Deacon for necessary distinction stand yet we doubt not but Priest as it is but the English of Presbyter is lawful But it is from the common danger of mistake and abuse that we argue That all Pastors else are but the Bishops Curates is a Doctrine that declares the heavy charge and account of the Bishops and tends much to the ease of the Presbyters minds if it could be proved If by Curates you mean such as have not directly by divine Obligation the Cure of Souls but only by the Bishops Delegation But if the Office of a Presbyter be not of divine Right and so if they be not the Curates of Christ and Pastors of the Church none are And for the antient use of it we find not that it was so from the beginning And as there 's difference between the antient Bishops of one single Church and a Diocesan that hath many hundred so is there between their Curates But why will you not yield so much as to change the word Sunday into the Lords Day when you know that the latter is the name used by the Holy Ghost in Scripture and commonly by the antient Writers of the Church and more becoming Christians Just Mart. speaking to Infidels tells how they called the Day and not how Christians called it All he saith is
why not as well to the Solemnity of Religious Worship And in particular no habit more suitable then white linnen which resembles purity and beauty wherein Angels have appeared Rev. 15. Fit for those whom the Scripture calls Angels and this habit was ancient Chryso Ho. 60. ad pop Antioch Repl. First if nothing can be added then we doubt the unanswered writings extant against these impositions will never be well answered 2ly We are desirous that no indecent Vestures or habits be used in Gods service Those that Scruple the surplice do it not as it is a habit determined of as decent but as they think it is made a holy vestment and so part of external worship as Aarons vestments were as may be seen in the Arguments of Cotton and Nicholls lately printed together Sect. 14. The Cross was alwaies used in the Church in immortali lavacro Tertul. And therefore to testify our Communion with them as we are taught to do in our Creed as also in token that we shall not be ashamed of the Cross of Christ it is fit to be used still and we conceive cannot trouble the conscience of any that have a mind to be satisfied Repl. That the Cross was alwaies used in the Church in baptism is an assertion certainly untrue and such as we never heard or read till now Do you believe it was used in the baptism of the Eunuch Lydia the Jaylor Cornelius the 300. Acts 3. or in those times And when it did come up it was with Chrism and not ever any transient Image and therefore you so far differ from the users 2ly The condemnation of genu flection on the Lords daies in adoration was at least as ancient and universall and commanded by Councils when the Cross was not and yet you can dispense with that and many such usages And if you will your selves fall in with custome yet every ancient common custome was never intended to be a matter of necessity to union or toleration of our brethren use no other force about the Cross than the Church then did 3ly Your saying that you conceive it cannot trouble the conscience of any that have a mind to be satisfied doth but express your uncharitable censoriousness while your brethren have studied and prayed and conferred for satisfaction its like as much as you and profess their earnest desire of it and their readiness to hear or read any thing that you have to say in order to their satisfaction Sect. 15. The posture of kneeling best suites at the Communion as the most convenient and so most decent for us when we are to receive as it were from Gods hand the greatest of Seals of the Kingdom of heaven he that thinks he may do this sitting let him remember the Prophet Mal. Offer this to thy Prince to receive his Seal from his own hand sitting see if he will accept of it When the Church did stand at her prayers the manner of receiving was more Adorantiun S. Aug. Psal 98. Cyril Catech. Mystag 5. Rahter more then at prayers since standing at Prayer hath been generally left and kneeling used instead of that as the Church may vary in such indifferent things now to stand at Communion when we keel at Prayers were not decent much lesse to sit which was never the use of the best times Reply To all this about Kneeling we say first we have considered the Text in Mal. and what you say and yet first we find that our Betters even Christs Apostles and the universal Church for many hundred years thought not kneeling more decent nor did the Church in the first Age think sitting unmeet in that service to the King of the Church and we hope you reprehend them not 2ly You require not the Adult that are baptized to receive that Seal or Sacrament kneeling 3ly When kneeling at Prayers was in use in the Apostles times yet kneeling in the reception of the Sacrament was not 4ly Why can you so lightly put off both the practice and Canons of the Church in this more then in other such things However you cannot here deny de facto but that kneeling on the Lords dayes in the receiving of the Sacrament was for many hundred yeares of the purer times of the Church dis-used and condemned And why do you not tell us what other general Council repealed this that we may see whether it be such as we are any way bound by When you say the Church may vary in such indifferent things First if kneeling or standing at prayer be an indifferent thing then so are they at this Sacrament 2ly Then you follow the changes and we the old pattern 3ly Then the Canons of general Councils and Customes pretended to be from Apostolical tradition may be changed 4ly What is it that you call the Church that changeth or may change these A Council or a popular custome Bring us not under a forraign power 5ly The thing then being so indifferent and changeable you may change it if you please for ends that are not indifferent 6ly And if now the Ministers may pray standing why may not the people receive standing 7ly When you say that to sit was never the use of the best times you deny the Apostles and primitive times to be the best as to the extent of the Church they were not the best but as to purity of administrations they were Sect. 16. That there were ancient Liturgies in the Church is evident S. Chrysostom S. Basil and others and the Greeks tells us of S. James's much older then they and though we find not in all ages whole Liturgies yet it is certain that there were such in the oldest times by those parts which are extant as Sursum Corda c. Gloria Patri c. Benedicite Hymnus Cherubinus c. Verè dignum justum c. Dominus vobiscum Et cum spiritu tuo with divers others Though those that are extant may be interpolated yet such things as are found in them all consistent to Catholick and primitive doctrine may well be presumed to have been from the first especially since we find no original of these Liturgies from general Councils Reply We know there wanteth not a Lindanus a Coccius to tell the world of S. Peters Liturgy which yet prayeth that by the intercession of S. Peter and Paul we may be defended c and mentioneth Linus Cletus Clemens Cornelius Cyprian Lucia Barbara and abundance such shall we therefore conclude that there were Liturgies from the first and that what is here consentient to Antiquity was in it There wants not a Marg. de la Bigne à Greg. de Valent. à Coccius to commend to us the Liturgy of Mark that prayeth Protege Civitatem istam proper Martyrem tuum Evangelistam Marcum c. And tells us that the King where the Authour lived was an Orthodox Christian and prayeth for the Pope Subdeacons Lelors Cantors Monks c. Must we therefore believe that all that 's Orthodox in it
13. and therefore should be continued still as well as Te Deum Ruffin Apol. cont Hieron or Veni Creator which they do not object against as Apocryphal Reply You much discourage us in these great straits of time to give us such loose and troublesome citations you turn us to Ruffin Apol. in gross and tell us not which of the Councils of Tolet among at least 13. you mean but we find the words in Council 4. But that provincial Spanish Council was no meet Judge of the Affairs of the universal Church unto the universal Church nor is it certain by their words whether quem refer not to eadem rather than to Hymnum but if you so regard that Council remember that Can. 9. it is but once a day that the Lords prayer is in joyned against them that used it on the Lords day only and that Can. 17. it is implyed that it was said but once on that day The Benedicite is somewhat more cautelously to be used than humane Compositions that professe to be but humane when the Apocryphal writings that are by the Papists to be Canonical and used so like the Canon in our Church we have the more cause to desire that a sufficient distinction be still made In the Letany Sect. 1. The alterations here desired are so nice as if they that made them were given to change Reply We bear your Censure but professe that if you will desert the products of Changers and stick to the unchangeable Rule delivered by the Holy Ghost we shall joyfully agree with you Let them that prove most given to change from the unchangeable Rule and Ensamples be taken for the hinderers of our unity and peace Sect. 2. From all other deadly sin is better than From all other hainous sin upon the reason here given because the wages of sin is death Reply There is so much mortal poison in the Popish distinction of mortal and venial sin by which abundance of sins are denied to be sins at all properly but only Analogically that the stomack that feareth it is not to be charged with niceness The words here seem to be used by way of distinction and all deadly sin seemeth not to be spoken of all sin And if so your reason from Rom. 6. 23. is vain and ours firm Sect. 3. From sudden death as good as From dying suddenly which therefore we pray against that we may not be unprepared Reply We added unprepared as expository or hinting to shew the reason why sudden death is prayed against and so to limit our prayers to that sudden death which we are unprepared for there being some wayes of sudden death no more to be prayed against than death it self simply considered may When you say from sudden death is as good as from dying suddenly we confess it is But not so good as from dying suddenly and unpreparedly we hope you intend not to make any believe that out turning the Adjective to an Adverb was our Reformation And yet we wondred to hear this made a common jest upon us as from those that had seen our papers Would you have had us said from sudden and unprepared death you would then have had more matter of just exception against the words unprepared death than now you have against dying suddenly A man may be well prepared to die suddenly by Martyrdom for Christ or by War for his Prince and many other wayes Sect. 4. All that travel as little lyable to exception as those that travel and more agreeable to the phrase of Scripture 1 Tim. 1. 2. I will that prayers be made for all men Reply An Universal is to be understood properly as comprehending all the Individuals and so is not an Indefinite And we know not that we are bound to pray for Thieves and Pyrates and Traytors that travel by land or water on such errands as Faux or the other Powder-plotters or the Spanish Armado in 88. or as Parry or any that should travel on the Errand as Clement or Raviliac did to the two King Henry's of France Are these Niceties with you Sect. 5. P. 16. The 2d Collect c. We do not find nor do they say what is to be amended in these Collects therefore to say any thing particularly were to answer to we know not what Reply We are glad that one word in the proper Collects hath appeared such to you as needs a Reformation especially when you told us before that the Liturgy ws never found fault with by those to whom the name of Protestant most properly belongs which lookt upon our hopes of Reformation almost as destructively as the Papists Doctrine of Infallibility doth when we dealt with them As for the Collects mentioned by us you should not wonder that we brought not in a particular Charge against them For first we had a conceit that it was best for us to deal as gently tenderly as we could with the faults of the Liturgy and therefore we have under our Generals hid abundance of particulars which you may find in the Abridgement of the Lincolnshire Ministers and in many other Books And Secondly we had a conceit that you would have vouchsafed to treate with us personally in presence according to the sense of his Majestie 's Commission and then we thought to have told you particularly of such matters but you have forc'd us to confess that we find our selves deceived The Communion Service Sect. 1. P. 17. Kyries To say Lord have mercy upon us after every Commandment is more quick and active than to say it once at the Close and why Christian people should not upon their knees ask their pardor for their life forfeited for the breach of every Commandment and pray for Grace to keep them for the time to come they must be more than Ignorant that can cruple Reply We thank you for saying nothing against our four first requests though we are thought more than Ignorant for our scruple we can truly say We are willing to learn But your bare opinion is not enough to cure Ignorance and more By your reason you may make kneeling the Gesture for hearing the Scriptures read and hearing Sermons and all If you will but interweave prayers he must be more than Ignorant that will not kneel The universal Church of Christ was more than Ignorant for many hundred years that not only neglected but prohibited Genuflexion in all adoration each Lords day when now the 20th of Exod. or 5th of Deut. may not be heard or read without kneeling save only by the Clergy Sect. 2. P. 18. Homilies Some Livings are so small that they are not able to maintain a licenced Preacher and in such and the like Cases this provision is necessary nor can any reason be given why the Minister's reading a Homily set forth by common Authority should not be accompted preaching of the Word as well as his reading or pronouncing by heart a Homilie or Sermon of his own or any other mans Repl. When
minde them of their duty as they do us of ours telling us it is our duty to imitate the Apostles practise in a special manner to be tender of the Churches peace and to advise of such expedients as may conduce to the healing of breaches and uniting those that differ For preserving of the Churches peace we know no better nor more efficatious way than our set Liturgy there being no such way to keep us from Schism as to speak all the same thing according to the Apostle Reply If you look to the time past by our Duties we suppose you mean our Faults For it is not Duty when it 's past If you in these words respect only the time present and to come we Reply 1. The Liturgy we are assured will not be a less but a more probable means of Concord after the desired Reformation than before the defects and inconveniencies make it less fit to attain the end 2ly Whether the Apostle by speaking the same thing did mean either all using this Liturgy of ours or all using any one form of Liturgy as to the words may easily be determined This is of much later date unless you will denominate the whole form of the Lords Prayer and some little parts And those that affirm that the Apostles then had any other must undertake the task of proving it and excusing the Churches for losing and dis-using so precious a Relict which if preserved would have prevented all our strifes about these things And in the mean time they must satisfie our Arguments for the Negative As 1. If a Liturgy had been indited by the Apostles for the Churches being by universal Officers inspired by the Holy Ghost and so of universal use it would have been used and preserved by the Church as the Holy Scriptures were But so it was not Ergo no such Liturgy was indited by them for the Churches 2ly If a prescript form of words had been delivered them there would have been no such need of exhorting them to speak the same thing for the Liturgy would have held them close enough to that And if the meaning had been see that you use the same Liturgy some word or other to some of the Churches would have acquainted us with the existence of such a thing and some Reproofs we should have found of those that used various Liturgies or formed Liturgies of their own or used extemporary prayers and some express exhortations to use the same Liturgie or Forms But the holy Scripture is silent in all those matters It is apparent therefore that the Churches then had no Liturgy but took liberty of extemporate expressions and spoke in the things of God as men do in other matters with a natural plainess and seriousness suiting their expressions to the subjects and occasions And though Divisions began to disturb their Peace and holy Orders the Apostle instead of prescribing them a Form of Divine Services for their Unity and Concord do exhort them to use their Gifts and liberties aright and speake the same thing for matter avoiding Disagreements though they used not the same words 3. Just Martyr Tertull. and others sufficiently intimate to us that the Churches quickly after the Apostles did use the personal Abilities of their Pastors in prayer and give us no hint of any such Liturgy of Apostolical fabrication and imposition and therefore doubtlesse there was nothing for it could not have been so soon lost or neglected 4. It is ordinary with those of the contrary judgment to tell us that the extraordinary Gifts of the Primitive Christians were the reason why there were no prescribed forms in those times and that such Liturgies came in upon the ceasing of those Gifts And 1 Cor. 14. describeth a way of publick worshiping unlike to prescript forms of Liturgy So that the matter of Fact is proved and confessed And then how fairly the words of the Apostles exhorting them to speake the same thing are used to prove that he would have them use the same forms or Liturgy we shall not tell you by any provoking aggravations of such abuse of Scripture And indeed for all the miraculous Gifts of those times if prescript forms had been judged by the Apostles to be the fittest means for the Concord of the Churches it is most probable they would have prescribed such Considering 1. That the said miraculous Gifts were extraordinary and belonged not to all nor to any at all times and therefore could not suffice for the ordinary publick Worship 2. And those Gifts began even betimes to be abused and need the Apostles Canons for their regulation which he giveth them in that 1 Cor. 14. without a prescript Liturgy 3. Because even then divisions had made not only an entrance but an unhappy progress in the Churches to cure which the Apostle exhorts them oft to Unanimity and Concord without exhorting them to read the same or any Common-Prayer-book 4. Because that the Apostles knew that perillous times would come in which men would have itching ears and would have heaps of Teachers and would be self-willed and unruly and divisions and offences and heresies would encrease And Ergo as upon such fore-sight they indited the holy Scriptures to keep the Church in all generations from error and divisions in points of Doctrine so the same reason and care would have moved them to do the same to keep the Churches in unity in point of Worship if indeed they had taken prescribed forms to be needfull to such an unity they knew that after departure the Church would never have the like advantage infallible authorized and enabled for delivering the universal Laws of Christ And seeing in those parts of worship which are of stated use and still the same forms might have suited all ages as this age and all Countries as this Country in the substance there can no reason be given why the Apostles should leave this undone and not have performed it themselves if they had judged such forms to be necessary or the most desirable means of unity If they had prescribed them 1. The Church had been secured from error in them 2. Believers had been preserved from divisions about the lawfulnesse and fitnesse of them as receiving them from God 3. All Churches and Countries might had one Liturgy as they have one Scripture and so have all spoke the same things 4. All ages would have had the same without innovation in all the parts that require not alteration whereas now on the contrary 1. Our Liturgies being the writings of fallible men are lyable to error and we have cause to fear subscribing to them as having nothing contrary to the word of God 2. And matters of Humane institution have become the matter of scruple and contention 3. And the Churches have had great diversity of Liturgies 4. And one age hath been mending what they supposed they received from the former faulty and imperfect So that our own which you are so loath to Change hath
diversity of Liturgies and Ceremonies be allowed where they allowed it May we but have love and peace on the Terms as the ancient Church enjoyed them we shall then hope we may yet escape the hands of uncharitable destroying Zeal we therefore humbly recommend to your observation the concurrent Testimony of the best Histories of the Church concerning the diversity of Liturgies Ceremonies and modal observances in the several Churches under one and the same civil Government and how they then took it to be their duty to forbear each other in these matters and how they made them not the test of their Communion or center of their peace Concerning the observation of Easter it self when other Holy dayes and Ceremonies were urged were lesse stood upon you have the judgement of Irenaeus and the French Bishops in whose name he wrote in Euseb Hist Eccl. l. 5. c 23. Where they reprehend Victor for breaking peace with the Churches that differed about the day and the antecedent time of fasting and tell him that the variety began before their times when yet they neverthelesse retained peace and yet retain it and the discord in their fasting declared or commended the concord of their faith that no man was rejected from Communion by Victor's predecessors on that account but they gave them the Sacrament and maintained peace with them and particularly Polycarp and Anicetus held Communion in the Eucharist notwithstanding this difference Basil Epist 63 doth plead his cause with the Presbyters and whole Clergy of Neocaesarea that were offended at his new Psalmodie and his new order of Monasticks but he only defendeth himself and urgeth none of them to imitate him but telleth him also of the novelty of their own Liturgy that it was not known in the time of their own late renowned Bp. Greg Thaumaturgus telling them that they had kept nothing unchanged to that day of all that he was used to so great alterations in 40. years were made in the same Congregation as he professeth to pardon all such things so be it the principal things be kept safe Socrat. Hist Eccl. l. 5◠c. 21. about the Easter difference saith that neither the Apostles nor the Gospels do impose a yoke of bondage on those that betake themselves to the doctrine of Christ but left the Feast of Easter and other Festivals to the observation of the free and equal judgement of them that had received the benefits And therefore because men use to keep some Festivals for the relaxing themselves from labours several persons in several places do celebrate of custom the memorials of Christs passion arbitrarily or at their own choice For neither our Saviour nor the Apostles commanded the keeping of them by any Law nor threaten any mulct or penalty c. It was the purpose of the Apostles not to make Laws for the keeping of Festivals but to be Authours to us of the reason of right living and of piety And having shewed that it came up by private custom and not by Law and having cited Irenaeus as before he addeth that those that agree in the same faith do differ in point of Rites and Ceremonies and instancing in divers he concludeth that because no man can shew in the monuments of writings any Command concerning this it is plain that the Apostles herein permitted free power to every ones mind and will that every man might do that which was good without being induced by fear or by necessity And having spoken of the diversity of customes about the Assemblies Marriage Baptism c. He tells us that even among the Novatians themselves there is a diversity in their manner of their praying and that among all the forms of Religions and parties you can no where find two that consent among themselves in the manner of their praying And repeating the decree of the Holy Ghost Acts 15. To impose no other burden but things necessary he reprehendeth them that neglecting this will take Fornication as a thing indifferent but strive about Festivals as if it were a matter of life overturning Gods Laws and making Laws to themselves c. And Sozomen Hist Eccles l. 7. c. 18. and 19. speaketh to the same purpose and tells us that the Novatians themselves determined in a Synod at Sangar in Bythinia that the difference about Easter being not a sufficient Cause for breach of Communion all should abide in the same concord and in the same Assembly and every one should celebrate this Feast as pleased himself and this Canon they called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and c. 19. He saith of Victor and Polycarp that they deservedly judged it frivolous or absur'd that those should be separated on the account of a custom that consented in the principal heads of Religion For you cannot find the same traditions in all things alike in all Churches though they agree among themselves and instancing in some Countries where there is but one Bishop in many Cities and in other Bishops are ordained in the Villages After many other instances he adds that they use not the same prayers singings or readings nor observe the same time of using them And what Liturgy was imposed upon Constantine the Emperour or what Bishops or Synods were then the makers of Lyturgies when he himself made publick prayers for himself and auditory and for his Souldiers Euseb de vit Constantini l. 4. c. 18. 20 c. But the diversity liberty and change of Lyturgies in the Churches under the same Prince are things so well known as that we may suppose any further proof of it to be needless In the conclusion therefore we humbly beseech you that as Antiquity and the custom of the Churches in the first ages is that which is most commonly and confidently pleaded against us that your mistake of Antiquity may not be to our Cost or paid so dear for as the loss of our Freedom for the serving of God in the work of the Ministery to which we are called we beseech you let us not be silenced or cast out of the Ministery or Church for not using the Liturgy Cross Surplice kneeling at the Sacrament till ye have either shewed the world that the practice or Canons of the Catholick Church hav◠led you the way as doing it or requiring it to be done And make not that to necessary as to force men to it on such dreadful terms which the ancient Churches used with diversity and indifferency of liberty we beseech you shew the world some proof that the ancient Churches did ever use to force or require Ministers to subscribe to their Liturgies as having nothing in them contrary to the word of God or to swear obedience to their Bishops before you impose such things on us while yet you pretend to imitate Antiquity And have but that moderation towards your brethren as in suffering or at death or judgement you would most appear Remember how unpleasing the remembrance of such differences about Ceremonies was to Bp. Ridley as
whoredom perjury oppression yea Infidelity or Atheism c. But suppose we cannot be infallibly certain that the man is damned because it is possible that he may repent though he never did express it will you therefore take him for a brother whose soul is taken to God in mercy You are not sure that an excommunicate person or an Heathen doth not truly repent after he is speechless But will you therefore say that all such die thus happily This is a most delusory Principle The Church judgeth not of things undiscovered Non esse non apparere are all one as to our Judgment we conclude not peremptorily because we pretend not here to infallibility As we are not sure that any man is truly penitent that we give the Sacrament to so we are not sure that any man dieth impenitently But yet we must use those as penitent that seem so to reason judging by ordinary means and so must we judge those as impenitent that have declared their sin and never declared their repentance It seems by you that you will form your Liturgy so as to say that every man is saved that you are not sure is damned though he shew you no repentance and so the Church shall say that all things are that are but possible if they conceit that Charity requireth it But if the living by this be kept from Conversion and flattered into Hell will they there call it Charity that brought them thither O lamentable Charity that smoothers mens way to Hell and keepeth them ignorant of their danger till they are past remedy millions are now suffering for such a sort of Charity Lay this to the formentioned propositions and the world will see that indeed we differ in greater things then Ceremonies and Forms of Prayer Churching Women IT is fit that the woman performing especial service of Thanksgiving should have a speciall place for it where she may be perspicuous to the whole Congregation and neer the Holy Table in regard of the Offering she is there to make They need not fear Popery in this since in the Church of Rome she is to kneel at the Church door Reply Those that are delivered from impenitency from sickness c. perform a special service of thanksgiving c. yet need not stand in a special place but if you will have all your Ceremonies Why must all others be forced to imitate you We mentioned not the Church of Rome The Psalm 121. is more fit and pertinent then those others named as 113 128. and therefore not to be changed Reply We have poposed to you what we think meetest in our last pages if you like your own better we pray you give us leave to think otherwise and to use what we propounded If the woman be such as is here mentioned she is to do her penance before she be Churched Reply That is if she be accused prosecuted and judged by the Bishop's Court to do penance first which happeneth not to one of a multitude and what shall the Minister do with all the rest All tends to take away the difference between the precious and the vile between those that fear God and that fear him not Offerings are required as well under the Gospel as the Law and amongst other times most fit it is that oblations should be when we come to give thanks for some special Blessing Psal 76. 10 11. Such is the deliverance in Child-bearing Reply Oblations should be free and not forced to some special use and not to ostentation This is needless since the Rubr. and Comm. require that no notorious person be admitted Reply We gladly accept so fair an interpretation as freeth the Book from self-contradiction and us from trouble but we think it would do no hurt but good to be more express The Concessions WE are willing that all the Epistles and Gospels be used according to the last Translation Reply We still beseech you that all the Psalms and other Scriptures in the Liturgy recited may for the same reason be used according to the last Translation That when any thing is read for an Epistle which is not in the Epistles the Superscription be for the Epistle Repl. We beseech you speak as the vulgar may understand you for the Epistle signifieth not plain enough to such that is indeed none of the Epistles That the Psalms be collated with the former Translation mentioned in Rubr. and Printed according to it Reply We understand not what Translation or Rubr. you mean That the words this day both in the Collects and Prefaces be used only upon the day itself and for the following dayes it be said as about this time Reply And yet there is no certainty Which was the day it self That a longer time be required for signification of the names of the Com. and the words of the Rubr. be changed into these at least some time the day before Reply Sometime the day before may be near or at night which will not allow any leisure at all to take notice of the proofs of peoples scandals or to help them in preparation That the power of keeping scandalous Sinners from the Communion may be expressed in the Rubr. according to the 26. and 27. Canons so the Minister be obliged to give an account of the same immediately after to the Ordinary Reply We were about returning you our very great thanks for granting us the benefit of the 26. Canon as that which exceedeth all the rest of your Concessious But we see you will not make us too much beholden to you and poor Christians that will not receive the Sacrament contrary to the example of Christ and his Apostles and the custom of the Catholick primitive Church and the Canons of general Councils must be also used as the notorious impenitent sinners But the Canon requireth us not to signifie the cause but upon complaint or being required by the ordinary That the whole Preface be prefixed to the Commandments Reply And why not the word Sabbath day be put for the seventh day in the end Must not such a falsification be amended That the second Exhortation be read some Sunday or Holy-day before the celebration of the Communion at the discretion of the Minister That the general Confession at the Communion be pronounced by one of the Ministers the people saying after him all kneeling humbly upon their knees That the manner of consecrating the Elements may be made more explicit and express and to that purpose those words be put into the Rub. then shall he put his hand upon the Bread break it then shall he put his hand unto the Cup. That if the Font be so placed as the Congregation cannot hear it may be referred to the Ordinary to place it more conveniently That those words yes they do perform them c. nay be altered thus because they promise them both by their Sureties c. That the words of the last Rubr before the Catechism may be thus altered that children being baptized have all things necessary for their salvation and dying before they commit any actual sins be undoubtedly saved though they be not Confirmed That to the Rubr. after Confirmation these words may be added Or be ready and desirous to be Confirmed That those words with my body I thee worship may be altered thus with my body I thee honour That those words til death us depart be thus altered till death us do part That the words sure and certain may be left out Reply For all the rest we thank you but have given our reasons against your sense expressed in Sect. 13. before and for satisfactoriness of the last And we must say in the conclusion That if these be all the abatements and amendments you will admit you sell your innocency and the Churche's peace for nothing FINIS Excep Excep Excep Rub. Excep Rub. Excep Rub. Excep Rub. Excep Rub. Excep Rub. Excep Rub. Excep 2. Exhor 3. Exhor Excep Rub. before the Confession Excep Rub. Excep Rub. Excep Prayer before that which is at the Consecration Excep Excep Rub. Excep Rub Excep Rub. Excep Excep Rub. Excep Excep Excep Except Excep Excep Excep Excep Excep Excep Excep Rub. Except Rub Except Except Excep Except Except Excep Rub. Excep Excep Excep Excep Rub. Next Rub. Excep Collect. Excep Rub. Lastrub Excep Rub. Rub. Excep Rub. Excep Rub. Excep Rub. Excep Excep Excep Rub. Excep Rub. Excep Ans Excep Rub. Excep The same Rubrick Excep Sect. 1. Sect. 2. Sect. 3. Sect 5. Sect. 6. Prop. u. 1. Sect. 5. Sect. 2. Sect. 3. Sect. 4. Sect. 2. N. 3 4. Socrat. 1. 6. cap. 8. Theodor. 1. 2. c. 24. 2 Chron. 7. 1 4. Ezra 3. 11. N. 5. Sect. 1. N. 6. N. 7. S. 1. S. 2. 4. 3. §. 4. §. 5. N. 9. N. 10. N. 11. N. 1â— N. 17. N. 16. §. 1. â—◠§ §. 3. N. 17. §. 1. Exc. 1. §. 2. Exc. 2. §. 3. §. 7. Exc. 3. §. 5. Exc. 4. §. 6. Exc. 5. N. 18. §. 1. §. 2. Cor. 11. 2. See Hooker li. 3. Sect. 4. 3. 4. See Hookli 4 Sect. 1. S. 3. R. 1. §. 4. Rul 2. §. 5. R. l. 3. Heb. 13. 17. Rom. 13. §. 6. Rul 4. §. 7. Rul 5. §. 8. Answ 1. 1. Cor. 14. §. 9. â— 2. §. 10. A. 3. Hooker l. 5. Sect. 6. 8. S. Aug. Ep. 23. Sect 6. pag. 24. Sect. 7. pag 24. Tit. 3. 5. Sect 8. Sect 1. p. 2. 26. An. 3. Sect. A. 2. Cor. Sect. 4 pag. 27. Sect. 5. Sect. 6. Sect. 7. pa. 28. Sect. 1. Rub. 1. Sect. 2. Rubr. Sect. 3. Ex. 1 Sect. 5. p. 30. Rub. Sect. 6. Ex. 1. Sect. 7. Ex. 2. Sect. 8. Marriage the Ring Sect. 1. p. 31. Sect. 2. pâ— 32. Ex. 1. Sect. 3. Se. 4. Col. Se. 5. p. 33. Rubr. 18. Sect. 1. Sect. 2. Sect. 3. p. 34 Exc. 1. Sect. 2. p. 2. Sect 3. p. 33. Sect. 1. p. 36. Exc. 1. Sect. 2. Exc. 2. Sect. 3. Exc. 3. Sect. 4. Exc. 4. Sect. 5. Exc. 5. Sect. 1. Sect. 2. Sect. 3. Sect. 4. Sect. 5. Sect 6. Sect. 7. Sect. 8. Sect. 9. Sect. 10. Sect. 11. Sect. 12. Sect. 13. Sect. 14. Sect. 15. Sect. 16. Sect. 17.