Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	canon_n	council_n	nice_a	2,852	5	10.4936	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A68566	A briefe discouery of the vntruthes and slanders (against the true gouernement of the Church of Christ) contained in a sermon, preached the 8. [sic] of Februarie 1588. by D. Bancroft and since that time, set forth in print, with additions by the said authour. This short ansvver may serue for the clearing of the truth, vntill a larger confutation of the sermon be published.	Penry, John, 1559-1593.; Bancroft, Richard, 1544-1610. Sermon preached at Paules Crosse the 9. of Februarie. Selections.	1590 (1590)	STC 19603; ESTC S114383	37,378	68

Bishop of Constantinople Theod. lib. 5. cap. 8. Where all these Bb. could bee gotten if Bb. and Ministers were not all one let M. Bancroft shew Lastly it would be knowne what account M. Bancroft maketh of that notable martyr M. Tindale M. Tindales works pag. 251. b. which speaking of priests and Bb. hath these words ther is presbyteros which same is saith he Acts. 20.28 imediatly after called a Bishop and in the same place all that were Elders or priests if they so will were called Bishops also though they haue deuided the name now I hope he will not answere him as hee doth Aerius that this opinion was condemned for an heresie long ago and none but heretikes and such leud persons euer since that time held it One thing I doe not a litle maruel at both in M. Bancroft and all the rest of his coat why they rather ioyne with Sir Thomas Moore and the papistes M. Tindals answer to Moore page 251. in calling the Ministers of the word priestes then with M. Tindale and the most sincere professours in the world at this day in abrogating that popishe name and vsing the worde Minister or Elder in the steade thereof Admon pa. 44. The B. of Winchester sayth that the Archbishop hath shewed sufficient reasons against T. C. why the Ministers of the gospell should bee called priests and all of them are of the same opinion and will not take it patiently if they be gainsaid in it but what account is to be made of them for this labor 〈…〉 shal learne out of M. Tindale page 14. 4. who in his obedience of a Christian man sayth that the worde Sacerdos should haue had another name in english then priest but that Antichrist hath deceiued vs with vnknowne and strange termes to bring vs into superstitious blindnes as for the word presbyteros saith he both in this place and against Moore in the place aboue cited it ought in English to bee translated Elder This I thought good to admonish the reader least hee should thinke mee in vsing the woorde priest to allowe of that Antichristian name Whether M. Cartwright hath truly alleadged Ignatius and others To the 98. pag. to prooue the vse and practise of the office of Elders in the Church long after the Apostles time because there is nothing but the pawn of M. Bancrofts credite brought to the contrary I referre the reader to examine the testimonies vsed by M. Cartwright for that purpose T. C. 1. reply 145. Especially the place of Ierome vpon Isaiah who saith that they had also the presbitery or eldership in the church and that of Ambrose vpon the 1. Tim. cap. 5. where he complaineth that through the pride slouthfulnes of the Doctors the Elders were worn out of the Church were it not that M. Chaplain carrieth his license in his bosome to speake what hee will I should wonder that he durst in open pulpit and writing deny elders to be in the church long after the Apostles time seeing D. Whitgift telleth vs of his owne knowledge that in the Primitiue Churche they had in euerie church certaine seniors to whome the gouernment of the congregation was committed Whit. pag. 638. M. Bancroft seeth there is no aduantage in granting any part of the truth and therefore hee taketh a round course to deny euery thing without more a doo Take his aduantage thereof who list His profanenes Page 98. in calling the Elders Aldermen the Lord I feare will reuenge who cannot abide to haue the officers of his kingdome derided and scoffed at by any Lucian whosoeuer Your caueling with the proofes To the 100.111 brought in by M. Cartwright to shew the Eldershippe to be most flowrishing in Constantines time i● a proofe that you retaine your vsuall boldnesse in out facing the truth If it bee not a good reason to say that because there were infinite numbers of Bishops and Elders at the councel of Nice therefore the Eldership was in a flowrishing estate at that time to what purpose should they be present in that synod if they had nothing to do with the gouernement of the church If they had to do with the gouernment of the church the reason holdeth most forcible to prooue the Eldership to be vp vnder Constantine For wheresoeuer there is a Church gouernement by Bishops and Elders there the Eldership is in force Though wee should graunt Page 101. that you deale truly with Eusebius yet his testimony is not a whit the weaker to proue the gouernment by the Eldership because he meaneth nothing els but to shew the great appearaunce from all places of the Cleargie men of all sortes in that assemblie Eor beit that his onely purpose was to shewe this great concourse of Cleargy men yet that hindereth not but hee speaking of Bishops and elders met at the said Synod we may thence gather Bishops and Elders did gouerne the church at that that time That Bishoppes had large jurisdiction before the Nicene councel is onely affirmed M Cart. 2. reply pag. 557.560 c. and not prooued by you M. Bancroft the contrary hath bene shewed It is your manner to build vpon false grounds which haue beene long since ouerthrone The appointing of Metropolitans or confirming whether you will at the councell of Nice hindered not the gouernement of the Eldership to be in force They had not such an vnruly jurisdiction as the Archbishops doe vsurpe The fifth Canon of the councell whereby it is decreed that the disorders of the church should bee compounded at the prouinciall assemblies not by that Metropolitans shew what smal authority they had They had but their owne suffrages as euery other minister had That which the councell of Nice attributed vnto them was no more then chiefe place in the meetinges Ibid. pag. 562. Aunswere that which M. Cartwright hath written in this question and then set downe your bolde conclusion otherwise the reader will deride your boldnes in pitching a campe of torne assertions whereof not one will be granted vnto you Faine would you I see haue the people not to giue eare vnto vs To the 103 104. page and to that purpose you bring vp to them the reasons that al Atheists haue for them selues whie they wil not embrace the true religion And that is because the professors thereof cannot agree among them selues The godly are not ignorant that there must bee scismes in the Church of God and therefore cannot stumble at the diuisions among vs ●●i if they bee any Wee haue learned of the blessed Apostle to bee so farre from agreeing with any saue only in the truth as we hold our selues bound to bid battel vnto at the Angels i● heauen if they stand against the same Our breaches would bee easily made vp Pag if you woulde yeald the Church her right As for your side it is wel knowne howe little you agree saue only in the mayne drift whereat you must al shoot or els you shal soone fal to the ground And that is in standing against the truth Tot 111. maintaining outragious coruptions I haue alredy noted that you in this short inuectiue against vs haue twise scratched the Archbishop by the face and that in matters of waight The 3. last pages of his Sermon contain nothing in them but generall exhortations that the people would cleaue vnto the truth without wauering the which wee earnestly entreat all men to doe as they would bee saued in the day of the Lorde And from our hearts we wish if it be the Lords will both vnto them and to all our aduersaries and perticularlie vnto M. Bancroft that immortall crowne of glorie whereof he speaketh in the last page desiring them and him notwithstanding to call to minde that neither lyers Page 1 nor those that delight in lies especially against gods truth and his church shall euer be partakers thereof

them that are sanctified And indeed we hold it is to bee feared of all those who refuse to stoope vnto the Lord in this point of their obedience that they haue not as yet felt a right what true religion meaneth Therefore we warne them to enter into their own soules and examine what true sence they haue of the glory of God and his fauour towardes them And as for the most of them that are enemies vnto this gouernment of Christ Iesus it were to be wished both in regard of the Church and common wealth that their very liues and conuersations did not shew them to be either meere Atheistes or carnall and prophane men that onely content themselues to haue godlinesse in their monthes though their hearts haue denied the power thereof and are so farre from the true feeling of Christian religion as D. Bancroft is from true and vpright dealing who saith that we account all those amongst whom this Ecclesiasticall Sinode as he calleth it is not erected to say of our sauiour Christ we wil not haue this man to raigne ouer vs. The which speech how vntrue it is may appeare by that which is alreadie spoken As for the conclusion which in the latter ende of this page hee alledgeth out of the Demonstration of Discipline I wish with all my heart if it please the Lord that neither hee nor any other enemies of the cause may feele the waight thereof Whereas in this place page 9. line 26. you would seeme to make the Demonstration of discipline to be the fountain whence you haue deriued the most of the thinges hitherto discussed the reader is to make no other account of that speech of yours then to marke it vppe vpon the score of your vntruthes for you shall find no such matter in that booke D. BANCROFT page 10. sect 2. 3. There was neuer ancient father as I thinke since the Apostles time that did thus expound the place Mat. 18. Besides there hath bin a diuers gouernement from this vsed in the Church euer since the Apostles time and these men doe confesse that this gouernment long before the counsel of Nice began greatly to decay and that since the sayd counsel T. C. it was neuer heard of in the world vntil these their times ANSVVERE They must needs be childish and absurd fathers that should expounde the place according vnto your interpretation The reader hath seene that you haue alleadged your owne comment and not ours Neither do we runne vnto fathers when we would try the truth but vnto the scriptures themselues And yet wee thankefully acknoweledg the helpes which their labours haue affoarded vnto vs but so as wee held it a maine point of popery to holde that a place is not well interpreted because no such exposition can be founde in the writings of the ancients Besides we account your brest for no librarie wherein al the interpretations of the fathers vppon this place may be sene Chrisostom if that were any thinge vnto the truth doth expound tel the church to be Chrisost vpon Math. tel the gouernors of the Church which comprehendeth in a manner al that wee affirme We know Di●●rephes to haue bin in the church euen in the Apostles times 3. Iohn 9. and wee are assured he could neuer be gotten out of it since the first hower that he set footing therein And therefore we cannot greatly maruel though euen in their time there had bin a diuers gouernment from this of the lords appointment which we labour for For euen in the Apostles time the mistery of iniquitie beganne to worke But for al this 2. Thes 2.7 wee would haue you prooue your bolde assertion that euer since the Apostles time there hath bin a diuers gouernment from this and when you haue done you must vnderstande that the question betweene vs is not so much de facto as de jure not so much whether there was a diuers gouernment c. as whether that diuers gouernement was lawfull or not We must needs confesse indeed that not onelie this gouernement of the Church but also many other points of greatest waight in religion fell to decay long before the counsell of Nice But that M. Carthwright or any man els of iudgement hath affirmed that this gouernement was neuer heard of since the sayde counsell vntill these our times it is an impudent vntruth You quote T. C. on the margent but neither name the page nor the booke where hee should affirme this which you woulde seeme to publish vnder his name The reader is to marke this is an other of shifte which is so much the more shamles as you ground your next speech vppon it as vpon a matter graunted you without any further question D. BANCROFT page 10. 11. A very strange matter if it were true that Christ should erect a forme of gouernment to continue vntil his comming and that the same should neuer be once put in practise for the space of 1500. yeares or at the least to take them at their best that the gouernment kingdome of Christ should then be ouerthrowne when the diuinity of his person the honour of his kingly authors c. was established at the counsel of Nice ANSVVERE Let the reader marke this for another of your shifts And is it not also a strange case that you wil erect a building of your owne stuffe and workmanship and then cal your auditors to gaze and wonder at the absurd deformitie of it Why there are non but your selfe and such as you are that affirme this gouernement to haue wanted execution for the space of 1500. yeares Neither doe we holde or thinke the gouernement and kingdome of Christ to be ouerthrowne at the time of the counsel of Nice And you haue in this point giuen your selfe the shamfull lye in the 100. page of your Sermon where you alleadge that M. Cartwright doth affirme this eldership to haue bene most flourishing vnder Constantine the Emperour by whome the Nicene councell was called I referre the reader vnto the place and wish you though you cannot be gotten to leaue forging of vntruthes against vs yet for your owne credit sake not to forget the chiefe ma●ime of your profession which is that it behooueth a lying tong to be joyned with a good memorie We doe not say that the gouernment and kingdome of Christ is wholly ouerthrowne where the Eldership is wanting and therfore your speech tending that way doth rather point out the essentiall all qualitie of your nature then any conclusion of ours And admit it were true that the Eldership lay in the dust at the time of the Nicen counsel and was neuer heard of in Christendoome from that hower vntill this latter age Will you conclude thereof that therefore it is not nowe to bee receiued that is Poperie For the holy men there met togeather suffered many other substantiall and most necessarie points of doctrine to be buried as they had bene