as yet others think that seeing the occasion of the first making use of it is removed it not being commanded in Scripture and much abused by you that it is more expedient to leave it undone But your abuse of it is not approved by Tertullian so his testimony maketh nothing for you who do so And for Images it is an impudencie in you to say that there were any Images set up in Churches the first 300. years what ever draughts might be in dwelling houses or cups For proving your shamelesness in this assertion hear your own Lorinus on 17. Acts on the 15. verse c. where wit Vasquez and Durand he telleth that all Images were forbidden under the Law and citeth for it Ex. 20. 3. then he sheweth that under the Gospel in the first Centuries there were no Images for this he citeth Lactantius and Tertullian Augustin and Arnobius contra Gentes who saith that Gentiles exprobrabant Christianis quod nullam Dei formarent picturam occultabant quod celebant i. e. The Gentiles did upbraid the Christians because they would not make any Image of GOD they did hide what they worshipped That Adrian fancying the Christians as Pagans suspected did build his Temple without any Images And in Constantius his time the Christian Chappels were called Templa Adrians Then he bringeth the decree of the Council of Eliberis where it was provided that there should be no Images in Churches Ne quod colitur adoratur in parietibus depingatur i. e. that which is worshipped and adored should not be painted on walls This council was celebrated in the time of Constantine in the fourth Centurie and this is the 36. Canon of it And till the second Council of Nice which was in the 800. year Image worship was abommable in the Christian Church How then can you assert so great and absurd an untruth Read ancient History and acknowledge your errour As for Free-will we do not deny it in some senseâ— and in the Jesuited sense none of these you cite did mantaine it Augustin against Julian and Pelagius opposed that so do we This is well proved by Jansenius Yprensis in his defence of Augustins doctrine against the Jesuits Vincentius Lyrinensis adversus Haereses lib. 1. cap. 34. proveth that Pelagius was the first inventer of your Free-will which is Arbitrium servum As for the merit of works Just in Marty understood not by it meritum condigni but the obtaining of the end of their faith and labours So Augustin saith the Apostle Paul electionis vas meruit nominari lib. de praed gratia and Cyprian readeth that 1. Tim 1. 13. I obtained mercy misericordium merui You keep the words which some ancients used and we the sense so ye deceive the People In your sense they absolutly renounced it Origen in epist ad Rom. lib. 4. suith Vix mihi suadeo quod possi ullum opus esse a nobis quod ex debito remunerationem Dei poscat i. e. I can hardly perswade my self that there can be any work which of debt deserveth a reward from GOD. Bernard in Cant serm 67. non est in quo gratia intret ubi jam meritum occapavit i. e. Grace hath no place to enter where merit hath occupied the room Your own Ferus on Matth. chap. 20. S. saith GOD hath freely promised he rendereth freely if therefore thou wouldest keep the grace and favour of GOD make no mention of thine own merits For out of mercy he will give all yet thou must not be the slower to good workes yea welshould be more fervent for doing of them as becometh us well who have so bountiful a Lord. Which words the Spanish inquisitors would have expunged Lastly You prove the fulfiling of the law even as the rest by Tertallian and Origen who say nothing but that through Christ who strengthneth us we can do all things This is the word of GOD Phil. 4. 13. which we will not disclaim But the man who can fulfil the Covenant of workes needeth not a Saviour Is it like they would hold it in your sense seeing they disclaime merit and said with us In many things we offend all and when we have done all we are unprofitable servants Where is perfection then The saw may be so farre fulfilled as to make us acceptable to GOD through Christ but not to justifie us Now let the Reader judge impartially whither it was ignorance in me to say that the primitive Church knew not Popery and that the negatives of our Religion could not be allowed by them more then by us What they say obiter concerning any thing of that kind is for us more then for Papists Papists Quest 8 Question eight How prove you the tenets of the Church of Rome to be contrar to Scripture Answer Your doctrine forbidding Laicks Prote ∣ stants Answer as ye call them to read and search the word of GOD is against the command of Christ Iohn 5. 39. this is written Scripture which ye contradict by your practice c. Reply In your eight Answer you are so Papists Reply confused in your method so weak in your citations and even sometimes so contradicting to your self that it needeth no other censure Yet I will reflect briefely on every thing You object first our doctrine forbidding Laicks as we call them say you as if there were no true distinction between Church men and Laicks i. e. a Minister and a Cobler in Ecclesiastical functions To read the Scripture is against the command of Chrâ—st Where first you object as if there were any article of the Cathoilck Church forbidding them to read Scripture absolutly She forbiddeth them to read Scripture without leave of their Pastours and Directours which is easily granted to any judicious person as all the Converts of this Countrey know whereof the greatest part have seen your errours in Scripture and detasted them Your citation is weak and can prove nothing till it be made out whither the words be imperatively taken or rather indicatively Ye search the Scriptures so Cyril interpreteth it lib. 3. in Iohn chap. 4. To whom Beza assenteth advertisirg that the word should be rather taken in the indicative mood So that you see I must have some other infallible judge to tell me in which of these two senses it should be taken before I build any thing on this place Thirdly As Christ in the same chapter proveth himself to be the Son of GOD by four testimonies First Of John the Baptist Secondly Of his works and miracles Thirdly Of his Heavenly Father Fourthly Of Scripture So do we prove by four like testimonies the Roman Church First By the authority of the Fathers Secondly By miracles in all ages Thirdly By the authority of GOD clearlie saying in all ages by her unitie sanctity in fallibility This is my Spouse Fourthly Of Scriptures exhorting all to read and hear them not superficially turning and shuffling them over as the Jews do to this day and yet
prophecie it vvill make against the Pope of Rome vvho giveth himself out for sole Bishop and all under him his Vicars onlie This is clear from the historie of the Trent Council lib. 7. pag. 599. Father Simon the Florentine there speaketh after the same tenour When it is demanded whither any Bishop be Jure Divino One must answer affirmativelie One onlie the Successour of Peter And thus the famous saying of Cyprian must be expounded there is but one Bishoprick and every Bishop holdeth a part thereof in solidum otherwise it cannot bâ—e defended that the government of the Church is the most perfect of all that is Monarchical but must necessarlie â—all into an Oligarchie All the Popes Prelats did speak then the same language will not this make him solus Episcopus so that in Estius sense he must be concluded to be Rex superbiae because he is sole universal Bishop The primitive Fathers studied modestie charitie humilitie But Head of the whole Church Prince of Priests infallible universal Monarch were names unknown to them Yet this is the Popes motto summarei the great foundation sine qua corruit Ecclesia saith Bellarmin in the forecited place Further worship in an unknown tongue was not heard in the Church till it was commanded by Witalianus in the 7. Cent. saith Platina and Aquinas on the 1. Cor. 14. telleth that the worship in the primitive Church was performed in the vulgar language The mutilation of the Sacrament of the Supper by withholding the cup froÌ„ the people was unknown to ant quitie For Valentia de legitimo usâ— Eucharistiae cap. 10. saith that the receiving of the Sacrament under one kind came into the Church by no decree but by the custom of the people not long before the Council of Constance at which time the custom was made a law The with-holding Scripture from people was detested in the primitive Church Was it not decreed in the Council of Nice saith Agrippa that no Christian should be without a Bible espcially if he could read in Augustin Chrysostom and Hieroms days the people are required to search the Scriptures according to the rule Iohn 5 39. Tutius ambulatur per Scripturas saith Aug. lib. 3. de doct Chri. cap. 28 nor by humane traditions or glosses Some names of things occurring in antiquitie are preserved in the Roman Church but it will be found that the Fathers understood them not in that sense nor made use of them as they do The nature of things new in Poperie is unanswerable to the old names as snal afterward appear By this we may perceive that Popery was not from the beginning The mysterie of iniquitie encreasing vain men set their posts beside the Lords posts their thresholds beside his Ezek. 43. 8. And making up a bodie of superstitious inventions have placed Religion in these which they hold forth to the world as eldest and have so falne out with Scripture truths that they are not ashamed to accuse them and their professours of noveltie heresie c. But be it known to all that we wil have no Religion to be called ours younger nor the Apostles and primitive Christians It shal eitheâ— be sixteen hundred years old it shal be founded on the Scripture sensed by pute antiquitie or else not outs Beside this their foistery that which is foisted poysoneth souls and filleth them with the East-wind For by their merits and mediatours they derogat from the honour of Christ and from the faith of Christians seeing he is is so precious to them who believe 1. Pet. 2. 7. It is not strange that contrar to Scripture they will deny the imputation of the righteousness of Christ Iesus to the blessed Elect and that imputed righteousness of Saints is affirmed by them to profit others and relieve them from temporal punishment As if the death and merits of the Mediatour were not of sufficient value to save us frâ—m all evil They say that no man can have certaintie of SalvatioÌ„ by faith and yet without any revelation they will canonize others as Saints Can any be more certain of the salvation of another nor his own Their doctrine concerning the Priests intention taketh away all certaintie of faith if the Priest do not seriously intend what he professeth to do there is no Sacrament no consecration no ordination And who but the Lord searcheth the heart and knoweth human intentions By making the Body of Christ now in Heaven to be corporally present in the Sacrament of the Supper when it is administred they deny many articles of the Christian Creed they strengthen the heresie of the Valentinians who said that his Bodie was phantastical not real they contradict the Scripture which calleth it the fruit of the vine after consecration Luke 22. 18. And Aug. tract 5. in Iohn who saith that the bread remaineth bread after the consecration and the Body of Christ a real Body after the Resurrection By their doctrine of Free-will they make free Grace to stand at the beck of the wil whither it shal be operative or not Yea they make providence in its acting dependent on the will For this is their tener GOD worketh because the will consenteth not e contra see Bellar de gratia libero arbitrio lib. 4. cap. 15. Will it not follow then that we should thank our will for our Conversion and intreat it to make grace efficacious and providence effectual Seeing it hath a negative voice in all these matters And what is more prejudicial to the providence and worship of GOD or to the efficacie of grace nor this tener which Aug refuteh well in his Enchrid cap 32. By invocation of Saints the worship of Reliques and the whole house of their imagerie they give the glory of the Lord to another and are reproved Is 42. 8. Yea there be many whom they invocat of whom they are not certain if either they were Saints or lived in the world Cassander who lived in communion with Rome acknowledgeth that much superstition is sostered by this way Consult â—1 Is it not then soul-damning By their distinction of mortal and venial sins by Purgatory by prayer for the dead by their absolution under so bare a degree of contrition they make people sin securely for under the name of vâ—nial sins they comprehend grievous crimes as sivearing by the wounds of Christ Per Membra Christi est venialis irreverentia si reverenter juretur nullâ—â—s videtur esse peccatum saith Valentia tom 3. disp 6. quast 7. punct 3. Legerdemaine in vendition ubi quantuns quale mutatur may be venial si materia sit levis saith Tolet. de 7. pecc cap. 49. whereas diverse measures without exception are declared abomination Pro. 20. 10. All these remedies which they apply after death make men less diligent in dutie while they live And if Purgatory be the Popes peculiar as they call it he must have little love to Souls and too much to his own gain who will not
the determiner of faith and manners First Because the chief and greatest Controversie is about scripture it â—â—lf viz What 〈…〉 scripture what not Now if it be the determiner of faith as you speak in 〈…〉 is the Catalogue of Canonical bookes 〈◊〉 How may it be proved against Luthâ—â— that St. Iames his Epistle is Canonical 〈…〉 against others that Nicodemus and S. Thomas Gospells are not Or if you reject Tobias Judith the bookes of Wisdom Ecclesiasticus and the Maccabees because the Synagogue of the Jewes did so why â—o â—ou not also deny Christ to be the Messias with them Answer This return is rather an evasion then solid reply and is satisfied in the resolution Protest Duply of the sixt Question to which in reason it ought to be referred yet seing tumultuously diverse things are here heaped together I shall sort and discuss them thus First There is no Christian Church which maketh it a Controversie at all whether scripture be the word of God so this is not the chiefest and greatest Controvesie for it is supposed amongst the principles of Christianity and if the Precognita of other science have ex terminis their own notoreiety We should not argument contra negantes principia against them who deny known principles how can this be denyed to Theology seing if we rest not on some principles we must run our selves out of breath and not know where to sist Basil †Basil on Psal 115. telleth 〈…〉 as in every science there be unqueâ—â—â—able principles which are beleeved withoâ—â—â—â—rther demonstration so in the science of 〈◊〉 Theology This is amongst 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 scripture is the word of God if any 〈◊〉 this controversall he is an Antiscripturiâ—â— and Paganish Secondly There be no Controversie betwixt us and the Papists in that wherein we are agreed but both are agreed that all the bookes which we receive for Canonicall scripture are the word of God Ergo this is no Controversie If all the bookes of scripture which we mantaine be the word of God our Adversaries being judges then iâ— must determine faith and manners or else our faith is humane for Bellarmine †Bel. de verbo Dei lib. 1. â— 2. sayeth that Scriptura est regula credendi tutissima certissima the written word is a most sure and certaine rule of beleeving So sayeth Aquinas †Aquinas in Tim. 6. This is sufficient for confirming the first Answere and refuting the first Exceptionâ— Yet to follow your impertineut digression from the power of the scripture-bench to the number of the books I Answere Secondly that the doctrine concerning the number of the scripture books or the names of all them who penned these if comparatively considered that is if you compare the present number with that of the Jewish and ancient Church in pâ—â—mitive times of Christianity is not expliâ—â—â— known and beleeved by all Fide divin◠〈◊〉 first but we come to the knowledge of â—â—e number which the primitive Church mantained as we doe to the names and number of other bookes seing the Catalogue of Canonicall bookes is not set down in scripture All this we attaine without the aid of Romish Councills For the Jewes to whom were committed the oracles of God Rom. 3. 1. 2. whom holy Augustin on Ps 40. calleth Capsarios librarios Christianorum these who keeped the bookes of the old Testament for Christians and fulfilled as he saith that word in part The elder shall serve the younger divide the bookes of the old Testament according to the letters of their Alphabet into two and twenty sometimes into foure and twenty as Eusebius sheweth yet never added to nor Lib. 3. cap. 10. altered a book of the Canon only they would suÌ„me up now and then the book of Ruth with the Judges the book of the Lamentations with the Prophecies of Jeremy and at other times againe reckon them by themselves So they sometimes made but one book of Samuel one of the Kings one of the Chronicles in some editions the whole Minor Prophets were reckoned but one book by them As the scription and writting of the bible is and hath been diverse yet the doctrine contained therein is stil the rule under every character so the Canon of the old Testament finished by the Prophet Malachy was ever the same in the Jewish Church what ever way they calculated the number of these bookes Hierom translated the books of the old TestameÌ„t from the Hebrew and he did admit all the books admitted by us So did the Greek and Latine Church neither for ought we can learn from Authors was there any alteration or addâ—tion till the third Council of Carthage then Can. 47. they recoÌ„mended other books as profitable to be read which are Apocryphal The Canon of the New Testament was finished by Iohn the Evangelist who out lived the rest of the Apostles and the number we have not disclaimed In universa ecclesia Christiana sayeth Hierom ad Dardanum And according to the Councill of Laodiâ—â—a Can. 59. these books were numbered is Canonick only and appointed to be read in all the Churches of Syrla this Councill was holden Annno Dom. 364. Although Luther cast at the Epistle of James we receive it Secondly Luther by some Learned is said to have made a retractation of that errour Thirdly In his Preface to his works he desireth that men would read his books with some commiseration and remember that once he was a Monk Fourthly Your own Cajetan said as much against the Epistle of James as Sirtus Senensis telleth us Biblioth lib. 6. will it therefore follow that ye have no Canon Fifthly Stapleton saith Princ. doct lib. 9. cap. 14. in Defens Ecc. Author that it is not as yet peremptorily defined by your Church whither ye may adde moe books to the present number but we of the reformed Church are agreed in this that these books of the Old and New Testament number them who wil were the Canon received read and exponed in the Primitive Church and none can adde to or alter the doctrine therein contained under the pain of Anathema Rev. 22. 19. It is an admirable providence that the Jews such enemies to Christianity keeped these Prophesies of the Scripture uncorrupted So saith holy Augustin lib. de Consensu Evang. cap. 26. yet you deride that as if the Lord could not keep that holy Canon in the Jews hand which is a witness against them and testifies of him to their confusion Jo. 5. 39. so your consequence â—s bad and impertinent Answer Third Although the numbering or penning of the Scripture books comparatively considered be not simply necessary to be known or believed fide Divina But we come to the knowledge of these as to the number or penner of other books yet absolutly considered to any discerner the books of Scripture father themselves Lege in facie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Divina read in the face of them divine approbation as in the
prophecies The Roman Trash may well make seeing men blind but will never make blind men see the right way Fourthly We do not deny ministeriall An. 4. helps to unlettered people for such are commanded Heb. 13. 7. and 17. provided alwayes their faith be resolved into the word of God at least interpretative virtualiter What ever means be used this milk of the Word is the authentick instrument which begetteth faith and it must be received not as the word of man albeit the treasure be in earthen vessels and the milk in a wooden pape The difference of assent betwixt the learned and the unlearned is only accidental and modal the one being more express then the other we Catechise and instruct the ignorant and require them to hear the Church and follow their guides so far as they follow Christ 1. Cor. 11. 1. we hold forth coâ—munia fidei motiva interna 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inward testimonies the common motives of faith reasons and testimonies of old and late and what ever may help their edification but we dare not lead them from the Scripture to men neither will the interpretation of the Scripture permit us to admit of an other determiner And it may be wel enough known by them who understand these languages that these Greek and Hebrew words do thus signifie as they are translated without the help of an infallible decree of Pope or Council thereanent Without this also GODS word can discover it self to be from GOD as hath been shewed already Reason 5. Reading of the Scripture with the privat spirit and taking it up as every one Pa. Rea. 5 thinketh maketh all the controversies in Christendom daily multiplying both Heresies and sects Luther no sooner swerved from the Church and denyed her authority but as soon he broached this principle That every man might take the Bible follow that interpretation which after due diligence used he thought best whereupon preseÌ„tly did spring up an incredible number of different sects Antimonâ—ans Osiandrians Majorists Synergists c. Now hear what Luther himself said of Calvins heresie Tom. 7. fol. 380. I scarce ever read saith he of a more deformed heresie which presently in the beginning was divided into such variety of sects as so many Toads and such disagreement of opinions not one like to another You see then how the word cannot be the determiner of faith which all these sects take with you for their rule yet alone will never agree â—hem As for that you say the scripture hath Divine authority Heavenly majestie and maketh Spiritual impressions on the soul all this I grant if once a man know or believe it to be the word of GOD. Answer First All this is answered to the fourth or fifth question and should not be Pro. An. 1 brought in here yet passing the digression and informality which I hope the Reader cannot impute to me the Defender I answer to the 5. Reason the Scriptures in the Primitive Church were published â—o all this your own Azâ—â—iâ—s confesseth Iust mor. p. 1. lib 8. c. 26. â—he Scriptures in the Primitive Church were to be published throughout all Nations and therefore made common in the most famouâ— languages In Hierom and Chrysostoms dayes the ley people were exercised in reading the Scriptures Espencaeus saith Comment on Tit. 3. 2. it is manifest by the Apostles doctrine Col. 3. 16. and by the practise of the Church that the publies use of reading the scriptures was then permitted to the people The Council of Nice decreed saith Agrippa that no Chriâ—tian shoulâ—â—e without a Bible Augustin alloweth de Doct. Christi the use of scriptures to all for he saith they are not so hard but every one by his use making of them may attain to so much knowledge of them as may further him in his salvation Chrysost hom 3. de Lizaro exhorts all men and women yea Tradsmen to get Bibles Now I pray you to what purpose if they dare not search for the sense of them Secondly It is denyed that when privat Pro. An. 2 men search the Scriptures this is an act of a privat spirit †It may be privat respectupersonae which is publick rationâ— modi medii è contra for such may pray and have the spirit of grace and supplication poured forth on them according to the promise Zach. 12. 10. and none call that a privat spirit so they may interpret Scripture by Scripture and have the gift of it Hear your own Gerson primâ— part de ex doct Si aliquis non authorizatus sit excellenter in sacra scriptura eruditus plus credendum est ejus assertioni quam Papae declarationi i. e. If any not ordained be well instructed in the holy Scriptures his assertion is more to be believed then the Popes declaration Secondly Our Divines distinguish well three sorts of interpreters the first is extraordinar and miraculous 1. Cor. 12. 30. The second is ordinar and ministerial 1. Cor. 14. 32. The spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets The third is of privat persons who are commanded to â—ry the spirits and are commended for so â—â—ing Aâ—t 8. 28. 29. Aâ—t 17. 11. The first kynd of interpretation is gone the two next are in use as yet but the one is subservient to the other Thirdly â—he different sects that lay claim to Scripture cannot deprive us of the priviledge to search it and make use of it Will any man approve this argument Meat and drink is abused by some therefore none should eat or drink If the matter be indifferent and subject to abuse then we are to restrain our selves of liberty in the use of that in different thing Vâ—tandum estlicituÌ„ non necessâ—riuÌ„ propter vicinitatem illiâ—â—ti Aug. de câ—v Dei lib. 15. But when it is necessar necessitate precepti medii by necessity of precept and mean who can forbid the use of a necessar mean Now it is most necessar to improve the Scriptures by reading understanding application meditation and blessed is he who doth so day and night sitting or standing Deâ—t 6. 6. It is absurd to say â—lbeit Luther and Calvin did differ in some points that he fathered the sects of Germany on Calvin who was as free of Munster malady as the man unborn and was malleus haereticorum as his learned writtings testifie aboundantly In that place cited he speaketh of the swarms of sects which were indeed monstrous like at that time but never imputed it to the use making of Scripture for then he would not have understood himself nor could he blame Calvin for it upon that account seeing it was his own tenet Now Reader stay and impartially consider the weaknes and impertinency of these 5 reasons why our faith should not be resolved into the Scriptures and determined by them For the sume of all is thus concluded The word of GOD is not wel understood by some is evil translated by others and
in the Church it should have this weight with us that rashly without grave and diligent enquiry after the truth it should not be rejected by us And whereas it is alleadged there will be no effectual way against Controversies and divisions in religion unlesse some one supream and infallible judge be appointed on Earth in whose â—udgement and decision parties controverting should â—â—st and acquiesce It may be well answered in your own Bellarmin his wordes lib. 2. de Concil cap. 19. It is no wonder if the Church remaine without any humane remedy seeing the welfare of it doth not primarily rely upon humane industrie but upon divine protection seeing its King is GOD therefore may and ought the Church to pray unto God and it is certaine he will care for the well-fare of it Answer second Albeit I cannot comprehend the purpose of this laxe discourse yet Pro. Duply 2 for satisfaction to the Reader I shal inform him in these 5. particulars First what Papists mean by the Church or whither they understand themselves in this Secondly Whither Church officers since the dayes of the Apostles are infallible Thirdly What kind of obedience should be tendered to them Fourthly What government the Christian Church should have whither Papal and Monarchical or Aristocratical and Ministerial Fifthly How that testimony of Augustia non credidissem Scripturae c. is to be understood For the first by the Church all the Jesuits who are the Popes life-guard understand the Pope So Valentia disk Theol. tom 1. disp 1. qu. 1. Coster Enchir de sum Pont Gretser Colloq Ratis Ses 1. Bell. hanketeth in the point for once he saith that the Pope without the Council may determine matters of faith De Christo. lib. 2. cap. 28. and de Concil lib. 2. cap. 17. Against this de verbo Dei lib. 3. cap. 3. he saith the Pope with a Council is the judge of the true sense of Scripture So speaketh this reflecter The Sorbonists Jansenists and others of the Popish partie understand by the Church the present Romish officers assisted by the Pope and stand by the Canons of the Councils of Constance Sess 4. 5. and Basil Sess 2. wherein it was decreed that the Pope should obey the Council The Council of Trent according to its manner is ambiguous herein Sess 4. decr 2. And saith that the Church should judge the true sense of Scripture yet tell us not what they mean by the Church Now whatever way it be taken whither for Pope or Council there must be another judge of controversies otherwise the Church wanted a judge 300 years for there was no such judge then pretending to the infallible supremacie now claimed Secondly The Romish Synagogue headed by the Pope cannot be our judge for they are party partial against whom we have just acception Thirdly Is not this a jugling trick that when controversies occasioned and raised by them are in the Christian Church they will have none to be judge but themselves so they would be sure of the sentence and must suspect their own cause Fourthly If by the Church they mean the Pope as now they mantain it is hard to call him judge of controversies seeing it is a great controversie whither there should be any Pope at all and beyond controversie with us that he is an usurper Fifthly According to the Popish tenet the intention of the Priest is necessar in his ordination in his Baptism succession without interruption is necessar and Simony maketh him no Pope as Gratian telleth from the Canon law causa 2. qu. 1. Now if so he may be a Pagan for who knoweth the Priests intention who baptized him He may be a Laick and yet without ordination upon the same ground if one be such it marreth uninterrupted succession and so ceaseth the Pope Then by your own writters it is clear that many Popes entered by Simony as Barronius testifieth Annal tom 9. ad annum Christi 912. And Alexander the 6. was notorious that way This un Popeth all for it breaketh the chain of succession and leaveth the Church collective without any judge It is clear hence how slipperie the Romish Church is in its foundations seeing he whom they call the Church may be a Pagan Secondly As to the second thing proposed viz. Whither Church officers since the days of the Apostles are infallible The Church whither taken for Pope or Council or Pope Council is not infallible When the Councils condemned hereticks of old they did it not pro arbitratu imperio but judged by the Scriptures which is indeed an infallible rule but the church taken whither for Pope or Council or Pope and Council is not infallible First If the Jewish-church erred in matter of faith and worship then may the christian-church erre also For they had statutes judgements and promises to them were committed the oracles of GOD. Rom. 3. 2. But Aaron and the people erred grosly Ex 32. So did Uriah the Priest 2. Kings 16. May not then Popes erre Seeing Aaron the saint of the Lord was not infallible Yea both Priest and Prophet erred in judgement see Is 28. 7. on which words Sanctius the Jesuit saith Priests Prophets and people were spiritually drunk Did not the Church rulers while the Levitical Priest-hood lasted procure the death of Christ Secondly Under the Gospel Popes and Councils have erred Ergo they are not infallible Tertullian telleth contra Praxetam that Eleutherius the Pope approved Montanus heresie and obtruded it on the Church as his Irenicum Your own Barronius telleth ad ann 302. that Marcellus the Pope sacrificed to Idols Athaudsius †Athanasius in epist ad Solitariam vitam agentes testifieth that Liberius the Pope was Arrian Honorius was condemned in the sixth General Council as a Monothelit Anastasius the Pope saith Alphonsus de cast lib. 5. cap. 25. was Nestorian Now can Monothelism Nestorianism Arrianism Montaaism and Idolatry be â—nherent to a man infallible Or can a chair make that man who is Arrian Orthodoxe or him who sacrificeth to Idols unerring who will believe this Councils may erre adversaries being judges Occam asserteth so much and Petrus Alliaco Cardinalis qu. vespert art 3. for he saith that this promise the gates of hell shal not prevail against the Church is made universo catui fidelium to the whole number of the faithful not to the representative Church which may erre Panor sup 1. part sib decret Dicit Ecclesiam quae non potest errare esse totam collectionem fidelium nam ista est Ecclesia quae non potest errare that is the whole company of believers which cannot erre Nic. de Clemang in his disp with the Parisians saith the promise Matth. 18. as likewise that Iohn 16. The spirit of truth shal lead you into all truth belongeth only to spiritual ones and it were better to be much in fasting and prayer for direction then to bragge we cannot erre So then I reason the Pope may erre
pretended right so in the matter of doctrine an invisible Church and no Church is the same For if I cannot see nor know the Elect as being invisible to the eye of man so I cannot know that the Church composed of them speaketh to me or that this Doctrine I hear of any man is infallible more then that he is one of the Elect. Answer I am weary transseribing a number Protest Duply of wordâ— without weight that is a compleet rapsodie and no return to the former question If such digressions were heard in the School the Writter behoved to be sore censured The question was how the Scripture could be the square Seeing all agree not about the number of the books some cast at the Epistle of James as the Lutherans And the answer I gave was that although some Lutherans differre from us about the authority of that epistle yet we both agree here that uncontroverted scripture is the determiner And for the numerick question it was sufficiently answered in the second answer to the first querie so we needed not this tauâ—oligie to make the Reader nauseat If I had to do with a Lutheran then I could prove the divine authority of that Epistle but you do not deny it therefore to what purpose should I insist on that subject against you Mr. Hooker whom you cite maketh nothing against us as is alledged for that which he sayes is first that the light of reason rightly managed is a requâ—sit mean for the knowledge of scripture books and what sayeth that against us seeing we suppose the Readers of Scripture to be â—ational men that reason in its own line may be helpful to them for understanding scripture Secondly Mr. Hooker directly disclaimeth your traditions page 86. and affirmeth that they who betake themselves to that testimonie as divine have not the truth but are in an errour Thus he condemneth you as erronious so it had been your advantage to have spared this tradition neither was it needful to tell us that the Manichees denyed Moses and the Jews the New Testament We have to do with Papists who hold all the books of the Old and New Testament which we hold for Canonick At lest what some others make disputable as Melchior Canus telleth us you put it out of dispute so you are not in bona fide to reason about their number with us seeing ye question none which we mantaine albeit we justly call in question Apocryphal writtings which ye put into the Canon Is it not safer to regulate our faith by these uncontroverted Scriptures then by the dictats of mutable self-contradicting Popes When Church Rulers have been fully corrupted Believers have continued orthodoxe as in the time of the Arrian persecution The Fathers who lived the first 300. year believed without either Pope or General Council as propounders of their faith For then there was no such pretending to infallible supremacy They had no infallible testimony from the Church they acknowledged not her testimony to be such And for ought I can learn theâ—e be no testimony of your Church nor statute enacting her testimony to be infallible If so it is nor according to you de fide however ye make a great noise amongst people with it And if all the faith you have depend upon the testimony of the present Church which is your doctrine your faith is not one with Abrahams faith for the word of God did beget his faith but it is the testimony statute of the Trent Council that begettâ—th yours and I would gladly hear from you whither there was universal consent there or not Such clashing and pocket orders as the author of that history telleth to the world will not permit you to say without a blush that the Council was unanimous and Gospel-like in their way Therefore unless it be against us all their otheracts are made up of ambiguous stuffe like the Delphian responses this is purposely coÌ„trived to cover debates with general termes And if their testimony make the word of GOD Scripture to me living under Popery what rule had they for their faith who made these conclusions Their own testimony could not be the cause of their own belief if you say that the testimonie of the ancient Church was their rule then ye go contrar to your own Doctors who declare that the present Church of Rome is above all former councils and their authority dependeth on her testimony See Bell. lib. de Eccl. cap. 10. Valentia Tom. 3. disp 1. quest 1. Further that the supream power of judging is not in the Council but in the Pope that he is above a general Council that he cannot be subject to it See Bell. lib. 2. de Concil cap. 17. Valentia tom 3. disp 1. Suarez disp 5. de fide and your own Vives in his comment on Augustins 20. book de civit Dei cap. 26. telleth us how little ye make of Councils or of the ancient Church when they militat against you Illa demum videntur iis Concilia quo in rem suam faeiunt reliqua non pluris estimantur quam commenta mulierum in textrina aut thermis i. e. These appear to be Councils to them which make for them the rest are no more esteemed by them then the sables of old women in the weavers shop or sloves Brisâ—â—erius writting against Collag a Jansenist as he is cited by learned Dalleus †See Dâ—lleus de usu Patrum saith Councils are literae mortuae nisi animentur à praesenti Ecclesia i. e. They are dead letters if they be not animated by the present Church This appeareth to be true from experience for ye agree not with the primitive either in doctrine worship or government The ancients thought that Images should not be in the Church See Epiph. epist ad Iohannem Hierosolymitanum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cum vidissem Imaginem penderâ— in Ecclesia contra authoritatem Scripturae i. e. When I saw an Image hang in the Church contrar to the authority of Scripture how grieved was I. But the Council of Trent appointed them to be had in houses and Churches and that debitus honor reverentia Sess 25. eis impertiatur i. e. Due honor and worship be given to them The Fathers thought that the Virgin Marie was conceived in sin so saith Ambrose Augustin Chrysostom as Melchior Canus de loc Theol. lib. 7. telleth The Council of Trent Sess 5. will not conclude heâ— under Original sin The Fathers excluded Tobias Judith Wisdom Ecclesiasticus and both the books of the Maccabees out of the canon of Scripture So did Hierom in his prologue ad libros Solomonis Epiph. lib. de Pond mens cap. 2. pag. 162. Gregorie Nazianzen câ—rm 3. Athanasius epist fest But the Council of Trent anathematizeth them who exclude these books out of the Canon Sess 4 Baptism was delayed till Pasch and Pentecost in the primitive Church it is not so with you The 4. Council of Carthage did forbide women
and baptize all Nations To ordain Pastours for edifying the body whose power and calling it is to preach the Word purely to administrat the Sacraments of Baptism and the Supper of the Lord as it was first delivered to rule their flocks as they that watch for souls and should stand and feed in the strength of the Lord to administer discipline according to the word of GOD and to do every thing commanded there which may bring men near GOD and help them forward in their journey to Heaven That Magistrats should be obeyed in the Lord. Parents honoured and husband and wife dwel together according to knowledge as heirs of the grace of life That Masters should remember they have a Master in Heaven and Servants be subject to their Masters for the Lords sake That the Lord to whom we owe all should be loved with the whole heart and have the flower of our affection and that we love our neighbour as our self That we should rather suffer then sin and glorify GOD in every station wherein he placeth us This is the summe of the positives which we mantaine he who will deny that all this is contained in Scripture and consented to by the Fathers hath no understanding either of Scripture or antiquity The negatives of our Religion are points of Popery denyed by us and condemned in the Scripture contrar to all antiquity Such as these That the Pope of Rome is supream infallible Monarch of the Christian Church That he and these who follow him cannot erre in matters of faith That he hath preheminence above the scripture and may dispence with the law of GOD concerning incest murder perjury c. That he may depose Kings Their service in an unknown tongue is contrary to all pure antiquitity so much is confessed by Thomas Cajetan and Lyranus writting on 1. Cor. 14. Their praying on beads a late invention Polid Virgil lib. 5. invent cap. 9. Their carrying of the Hoste by a pompous procession is praeter veterem morem saith Cassander consult art 22. not according to antiquity That Christ is bodily present there and should be worshâ—pped and that bread and wine is no longer there after consecration is not older then the Lateran Council That the cup should be holden from the People is of one age with the council of Constance That the Mass iâ— a proper propitiatory sacrifice for the sinnes of dead and living was unknown to Peter Lombard who saith from Augustin lib. 4. disp â—â— that which is offered is called a sacrifice because it is a commemoration and representation of the true sacrifice made on the altar of the Cross Augustin lib. 20. cap. 21. against Faustus the Manichaean the flesh and blood of Christ before his comming into the world was promised by the similitude of the legâ—l sacrifices in the suffering of Christ 〈◊〉 his flesh and blood was in the veritie and antitype it self exhibited after the asâ—â—â—tion of Christ it is celebrated in the Sacrament of commemoration That none should communicaâ— except such as make aâ—ticulat consession to a Priest was not known in the ancient Church saith Maldon sum qu. â—â— art 11. Where there was only publick confession That Images should be set up in Churches and worshipped was abominated till the second council of Nice The like may be said of Purgatorie worshipping Saints and Angels with-holding the Bible from people c. So the Romish Religion is new and ours the good old way quod primum verum saith Tertul. lib. 4. contra Marc. cap. 5. It is true that the enemy did sow tares quickly in the Church and the mysterie of iniquity did encrease by degrees Yet these were not holden to be de side and made articles of the Christian Creed under the paine of Anathema till the council of Trent then indeed in stead of reformation which occasioned that convention the Trent Doctors oâ— at least the plurality of them gathered the crotchets of some Fathers the disputable opinions of some School-men and making a bundle of all together did obtrude them to be believed by all Christians under the pain of excommunication So that the church of Rome as new dogmatized is no older then the council of Trent and ours is as old as Scripture sensed by the purest antiquity For further clearing beside all I have said formerly you may hear this more how Suarez telleth us that the council of Florence did at first insinuat that there were seven Sacraments but it was no article of faith till the council of Trent the like may be said of the rest So Popery is a superstitious superstructure like an ulcer on the body which was long in growing at last did break out and stain the garments of many in a world When our Lord Jesus dyed he left a Testamen behind him which being opened directeth all his subjects how to carry Papists not content with this rule for ordering his legacâ—e upon a pompous design have formed a dative which they make equal to his Testament which we disclaim and honestly adhere to the first Testament here is the rule of our Negatives It is â—â—â—rasonick bragge for you to say That of an 100. Fathers ye have 99. for your tenets and as untrue that the four first general Councils were for the Popes universal supremacie The Fathers though the mystery of iniquitie was then in the cradle being taken up with other controversies did not purposely fall on these tares which scarcely were come to the blade then For instance the Fathers in the first 300. years whose books are extaÌ„t were Iust Mar. who did writ 150. year after Christ an Apology for the vindication of Christians to the Senat of Rome after another of the samekind to Antonius the Emperor a Dialogue concerning the verity of Christian Religion called Tryphon and some other letters exhorting to moral duties holding forth the Roligion of Christians against Jews and Gentiles but that which is Poperie the source of controversies in the Christian Church was unknown to him The next is Ironaeus who lived about the year of Christ 178. He did write five books against the heresies of his time as the Valentinians Gnosticks Ophites the heresie of Simon Magus Menander Basilides So Popery is not to be found in them unless some of these heresies be found in their skirts The â—hird is Clemens Alexandrinus who flourished in the year of Christ 196. who was a Presbyter of Alexandria the subject he handleth is in three parcels an exhortation to the Gentiles to renounce their Idols a Paedagogy to the Christians instructing them about their carriage and his Stromara which is a Miscellany work against the followers of Basilides Gnosticks c. Origen lived about the same time whose writtings are so imperfect and vitiated that we scarce know what to make of them as Erasmus witnesseth in his edition Tertullian did writ about the same time several books as concerning Patience the Resurrection against the Jews against Marcion Hermogenes
Praxeas the defence oâ— Christians against Idolatry c. The Martyr Cyprian who lived anno 258. writteth some eplstles treatises and sermons about the cases of his time Lactantius and Arnobius flourished in the beginning of the fourth Centurie and did writ against the Gentiles but the Popish trash was unknown to them So it is not strange albeit the Negarives of our Religion were not handled directly by the Fathers seeing then the Popish controversies were not started however the Jesuits do wâ—est some sayings of these Fathers for their own ends yet an attentive Reader will find that they make not for them as Scultetus and Dr. Forbes Dr. Usher and Dr. Morton have sufficiently proved In the following ages they had to do with Arrius Macedonius Nestorius Eutiches but Popery then was under the hatches and the decrees of the Trent Council wholly unknown Further controversies betwixt us and Papists can hardly be decided by the Fathers for some of them made retractations others held forth the opinion of others frequently then what they propose sometime is esteemed by them probable not certain and all of them Printed since the Trent council have been castrated by the Popish Index expurgatorius Therefore they cannot be thought the sittest Umpyres in our present debates neither are they made judges either by the Popish partie or ours for they appeal to the Pope we to the Scriptures and do make use of them as Commentators and historians only Further the Fathers desire us to look on them only as such I shal ciâ—e three testimonies proving this to the full One is that of Augustin in his opist to Hierom concerning the interpretation of the 2. chap. to the Galatians When he is pressed with the testimonie of old authours Ego didici hunc honoreÌ„ deferre tantuÌ„ Scripturarum libris qui Cano ni ci appellantur ut nullum eorum authorum in scribendo aliquid errasse firmâ—tâ—r credaâ— nec arbitror mi frater te velle tuos libros sic lâ—gi tanquam Prophetarum Apostolorum i. e. I have learned to give that honour onlâ— to the books of Scripture which are canonick thâ—t their authours have not errod And a little thereafter I do not think my brother that you would have your books so read as the books of the Prophets and Apostles The second testimony is in his third Epistle to Fortunatus Nec quorumlibet disputationes tanquam Scripturas Canonicâ—s habere debemus ut non liceat salva honorisicentia quae iis debetur aliquid in eorum scriptis improâ—are si forte aliter senserint quam veritas habet talis ego sum in scriptis aliorum tales volo esse lectores meorum i. e. We ought not to look on the writtings of men as the Scriptures of GOD but may disprove that which is not truth in their books if they have not set down the truth such I am in the writings of others such I desire to be the readers of my own The third testimony is that of Hierom lib. 2. contra Ruffinum where speaking of Origen and other Fathers he saith fierâ— potest ut simpliciter â—rrarint vel alio sensâ— scripsâ—rint vel à librariis imperitis eorum scripta paulatim corrupta sunt vel antequam Arrius natus sit minus caute loquâ—ti sint i. e. It may be they have erred and spoken in another sense or their books have been corrupted or before Arrius they have not spoken so warily on the point If then we hold Fathers in their own room according to their desire no wrong is done to them Fourthly That none think we disside the Fathers or Councils it will be found that pure antiquity savoureth us more then Popery This you deny and cites for you Beza his epist ad Dudithium whereby your studied endeavour to deceive people may appear for Beza there is only answering an objection brought in amongst others by Dudithius for resolution that he might be confirmed in the faith by him Wherein Beza doth judiclously give resolution Will it then follow that Dudithius was of this opinion So deal you with Martyr and Chemnitius who assert no such thing It is known both of them were good Antiquaries and confirm our tenets by several testimonies of Ancients It is like you have taken these citations from your Index and not from the Authours Neither Luther Calvin Whitgift Fulke or any reformed Divine hold from Fathers or Councils their due Yea we reverence them more then ye do You bring the four Councils for the Popes universal supremacie and infallibility If this be not it which you intend to prove your answer meereth noâ— mine This is a negative of our Religion was it heard of the first 300 years You say not so But in the next 300. years was the Popes universal supremacie or infallibility heard of This you alleage and by providence contradict your self it is known that in the Council of Nice no mention is made of an universal far less infallible Pope You cite the 29. Canon of the Nicaen Council whereas there were but 22. of them in whole saith Ruffinus lib. 1. cap. 6. Their sixth Canon is far from that If that had been in their Creed they needed no Council the Pope in Cathedra would have done all And in the council of Constantinople they establish the power of their own Patriarch Why then say you that he was established there universal infallible Monaâ—ch of the whole Church Will ye remember better your connexions Was he Peters successour according to the council of Ephesus Then no universal Monarch He was a Presbyter an Elder not a Lord over GODS heritage see 1. Peter 5. 3. Thirdly Expone this and reconcile it with the Popedom if you can Was he Patriarch of old Rome Then no universal head these two seem to clash and the council wordeth it better But why do you not mention his infallibility in your Reply It is the koy of Popery and let you it thus slip out amongst your hands Not one Father or primitive Council is cited for this The Council of Chalcedon saith expresly that the Pope of Rome hath no priviledge from Christ above others but only because it was the seat of the Roman Empire Act 15. you will not then have the four Councils for you except you coine some new acts as the 29. of Nice By which also it may appear how groundless and vain your boasting is of having 90. Fathers of an 100. for this point The opposition of the Ancients thereto is clearly demonstrated by learned Morton in his Grand Impostor Here that you seem not to be silent you bring forth impertinently these texts of Scripture formerly explained Tell the Church c. To which I referre the Reader for satisfaction there be no more priviledge there concerning the Church of Rome then the Church of SCOTLAND and not so much as it is how constituted and adulterated We do believe an universal Church but it is far from our thoughts that
image-worship whither of the true or false Gods which is here forbiddeÌ„ For it is certain that the Golden-call was intended by them to represent the true GOD. Exod. 32. 5. To morrow is a feast to the Lord and 2. Chro. 33. 17. They sacrifized in high places yet to the Lord their God only The like may be said of the Calves at Dan and Bethel Ps 106. 20. And of Micahs Image For be confidently sayeth Now know I that the Lord will bless me Judges 17. because I have a Levit to be my Priest They used not Levits for the worship of false Gods Further the speech of Stephen seemeth to prove it strongly Acts 7. 40. 41. for speaking of Israels worshiping the Calf he saith The Lord for this gave them up to worship the host of Heaven Now when sin is punished by sin that sin which is the judicial punishment useth to be more gross then the antecedent sin which is the procuring cause but the worshiping the host of Heaven is not so gross as the worship of an Oxe therefore they did worship GOD at first by the representation of a Calf yet were Idolaters This answer then cannot satisfie the conscience or reason of any man And admit that the image of false Gods is forbidden in the second Command how dare Papists without warrand and contrar to the word make the Image of the true GOD which he hath expresly forbidden Deut. 4. 12. Seeing Omnis cultus saith Tertullian de Jejunio should be ex imperio divinâ— non ex arbitrio humano Lastly We are forbidden to worship the likeness of any thing in the Heaven above or in the Earth beneath Now the Lord GOD is in the Heaven above gloriously therefore we should not make his Image for to what can ye liken him saith he Isaiah 40. 18. Bellarmin de Imag. and Gregorius de Valentia distinguish the Minor another way and reject the two former answers as extream For first they say that they worship Images properly so they are againâ—t Durand a great Anti-Thomist who maketh them only memorials Secondly They say that they give them not worship equal to the Pattern so they renounce Thomas and all his adherents Valent. lib. 3. disp 6. saith it is not sicut DEO that they worship the Image of the Trinity Bellarmin saith further that it is not Aeque certum an Imagines Trinitatis sint in Templis collâ—candae reperendae Yet say they that veneration suitable to them is to be rendered Which is he ambiguoâ—s phrase of the Council of Trent like the Delphian oracle If this answer hold good then Thomas and all his Clients are guilty of Idolatrie for they give veneration to Images equal with the Pattern all the Thomists say sicut DEO so to the Image Secondly Cultus religiosus est accidens hominis if we speak Physice now gradual difference in these altereth not the kind of worship Therefore according to the rules of Logick the worship is one with the worship of Thomists or else they disclaim a maxime by making the one Idolatrie the other not Thirdly We are forbidden to bow down to them therefore the meanest degree of religious worship is forbidden in the second Command And they who break the least Command and teach men so shal be least in the Kingdom of Heaven Matth. 5. 19. Lastly the seduced people know nothing of this difference Yea Bellarmin thinketh it not fit that in concione â—oram populo it should be divulged and he hath reason to say so seeing they cannot conceive the groundless distinction betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for their Clergie men will not make it hold water Fourthly Some as Eckius in his Enchir answers nothing but this to the argument that it is the tradition of their Church and Command of their Pope which they judge themselves obliedged to obey If this answer be relevant then they were not faulty who with their traditions made the word of GOD of none effect Matth. 15. 6. And Papists are too like the Pharisees in this Secondly By that Logick the Turk may mantain his worship of Mahomet for his Church and Mufti authorize it Thirdly The Pope in his Conclave may bring in the Alcoran the next day for that may have authority from them contrar to the word of GOD. Arg. third If Image-worship be condemned by all pure antiquity then this worship is not only a breach of the second Command but contrar to the custom of all the Churches of Christ Upon which argument the Apostle layeth stress 1. Cor. 11. 16. But the first is true Ergo c. The Minor is proved thus Many of the Ancients as Clemens Alexandrinus Tertullian c. Were against the art of statâ—e making Epiph. in his ep to John 23. of Jerusalem abominateth the putting them up in Churches and saith it is contrar to scripture that any Image should be in the Church of Christ Now if they wer against the making of them against the hanging of them in Churches much more against teligious veneration given to them Secondly the council called Eliber which is as old if not older then the Council of Nice made a decree that no Image should be in the Church ne forte quod in parietibus pingatur colatur least that which is painted be worshipped and till the second Council of Nice which was in the 8. Centurie no such thing as image-worship was approved in the Christian Church Thirdly It is an ordinar objection made by Celsus and all Pagans against Christians as I said before from Lorinus Ye have Nulla Templa nulla simulachra nullas aras quod colitis celatis To this objection Origen and Arnobius answer yeelding the matter of fact and vindicating their way which they could not have done if Images had been in use amongst them Further when Adrian did build a Temple for himself the Pagans suspected that it was for the Christians because it was sine simulachris without Images whence it is clear that the Image worship cometh nearer Paganism then Primitive antiquity See Dâ—laeus de Imagin Arg. fourth That which notwithstanding of all distinctions draweth and driveth people to Idolatrie is abominable but by the concession and confession of some learned Papists the Romish worship doth involve people into Idolatrie therefore it is abominable The Major is proved by reason that when the people made an Idol of the brazen Serpent the statue was brocken and called Nehushtan although at first it was appointed by GOD. The Minor is thus proved by the testimonies of learned Romanists as Polyd Virgil. de invent lib. 6. cap. 13. Many are now saith he become so mad that they worship the Images of wood and stone as if theâ— had sense in 〈◊〉 and put more confidence in them then theâ— do in Jesus Christ or other Saints to whom they are dedicated Cassander consult de imag saith It is too manifest that the worship of Images hath so prevailed that
the unlawfulness of it nor all the Rhetorick of Muretus can wipe off For as an excellent Poet saith on that subject Maribus ore oculis atque auribus undique ano Et pene erumpit qui tuus iste cruor Non tuus iste cruor sanctorum at caede cruorem Quâ—m ferus hausisti non poteras coquere Eighteenthly Ye call your selves the Universal Church which was never attributed § 18. Inst. to the Church of Rome in the Apostle Paul his time notwithstanding that then their faith was spoken of through all the world Rom. 1. 8. Beside ye are but a particular Church at best not so numerous as we and the Greek Church are with whom we joyn in one Confession except about the manner of the ProcessioÌ„ of the Holy Ghost As witnesseth their Confession set forth in the name of the Greek Church by Cyrillus Patriarch of CoÌ„stantinople and printed Anno 1633. which booke can easily be produced Whereas ye bragge of Unity ye are great Schismaticks renting the universall Church and taking the tittle from them to your selves Ye are miserably divided within as appeareth from the strong factions of the Councill of Trent and these hot skirmishes amongst Jesuâ—ts Dominicans and Jansenists lasting to this day Moreover the scripture calleth Rome Bâ—bylon the scarlet whore according to your own Interpreters upon Rev. 17. 18. which Babylon is to be destroyed Reply You accuse us for calling our selves the Universal Church and yet would willingly Papists Reply take that title to your selves if the common practâ—se in all Ages to your shame and discreâ—it did not oppose it None acknowledging your Church under this title but all generâ—lly ours But I have heretofore told you why the Roman Church is called the Catholick as being the Mother Church constantly since the Apostles times which hath a power of head-ship and jurisdiction over all the rest holding communion with her through out the world Then you say we are but a particular Church not so numerous as ye and the Grecians with whom ye joyn in one Confession of Faith except about the manner of the procession of the Holy Ghost Which it seemeth you hold but as a trissle although it maketh no distinction betwixt the second and the third Person of the Trinity for where there is no Procession and relative opposition in the Trinitie there is no distinction say Divines after Iohn Damascene yet notwithstanding ye joine with this in the confession of faith albeit they plainly disclaim them in the censure of the Orientall Church where chap. 7. 12. 13. 21. they hold Transubstantiation seven Sacraments an unbloody sacrifice prayers to the saints and for the dead whatever you alleadge of that confession of faith printed only in the last year But however this sheweth the Protestants weaknes and wavering faith that they claim the Grecians and Lutherians albeit both do openly disclaim them Neither do you prove better our division amongst our selves seing all the parties in the Council of Trent subscrived the Canons thereof nor doth the hot skirmishes betwixt Jesuits and Dominicans in school questions hinder their Unity in all the tenets of the Catholick Church both being willing to subscribe them with their blood as amongst Jesuits many do to this day As for Jansenists we altogether disowne them and to make you more numerous if ye please are well content that in many things you call them yours I am content also Rome be called the scarlet whore Rev. 17. 18. viz. Rome under Pagan Empeâ—ours But was not the Church of Rome then in her greatest integrity and virginity under the Apostleâ— St. Peter and Paul who praising her faith as spoken of through the world both declare her Universality and speak of her preheminence Duply I had reason to challenge your usurpation Prote ∣ stants Duply of the Catholick title for your own Pighius Eccl. hierarch lib. 6. cap. 3. saith Quis unquam per Romanam Ecclesiam intellexis universalem He thinketh it absurd and repugnant and so it is As for the Grecians I can presently produce their Confession †See it set down after the Preface Printed not the last year but 30. years ago and upward wherein they disclaim seven Sacraments the unbloody service of the Masse prayers to Saints or for the Dead Purgatory Transubstantiation c. And Dr. Rivet in his 3. Tom. pag. 1257. setteth down at length how the Jesuits by money and moyen of the French Ambassadour accused the same Cyrillus of treason before the grand Segniour and said that he favoured the King of great BRITTAIN by which accusation he was for a time thrust out of charge and forced to flee anno 1627. but afterwards by the good providence of GOD restored the Greek Church would owne no other Patriarch during his absence and how sore he was persecuted thereafter see Hornbeck in his Summa Contro As for the Jansenists you gift us with them calling them ours So Augustin and the Dominicans are ours also in this so your unity and universality â—s not so much as you pretend You grant also that the scarlet whore Rev. 17. and Babylon is Rome but under the Heathen Emperour and not as it is now under the Pope Your own Ribera refuteth you fully in this for he saith †So saith Sixtus Senensis and Baronius also that it must be meaned of Apostat Rome in the time of Antichrist because she is called an adulteress the mother of harlots but there can be no adultery where Marriage was not once Secondly The people of GOD are required to leave her lest they partake of her plagues But they were never incorporated with Pagan Rome as Christians for they had no communion with Pagan Idols Ergo if your Church be the Mother of Fornications and less numerous then these who hold the Scripture for the rule in no sense can ye be called the Catholick Church Ninthteenthly Ye make the Pope Christs § 19. Inst. Vicâ—r on Earth Peters successour the head of the Church an infallible man a Demi-God Whereas all the Apostles were equal in power and dignity Matth. 20. 26. And Cyprian lib. 3. de unitate Ecclesiae saith hoc idem Petrus quod reliqui Apostoli pareâ— consortio dignitate Peter was one with the rest of the Apostles in dignity and fellowship Ambros de Sp. S. lib. 2. cap. ult Nec Paulus est inferior Petro. see August ad Hieron epist 97. and Hierom ad Evagr and Cyprian epist ad Quintum 71. Prophets and Apostles were not infallible except in penning the Scripture Did not Moses speak unadvisedly Psalm 106. 33. the Prophet Elisha professeth that the case of the Shunamit was hid from him 2. Kings 4. 27. Nathan gave forth a verdict to day and made a retractation to morrow 2. Sam. 7. Peter controuled the Heavenly vision and knew not what to do Acts 10. 17. And shal your sinful Popes then be infallible who will believe it Is it not then
directly answered by me whither on man or many should be judge of controversies To this he saith I dare not answer because I will not grant the power either to the high Bishop or general council nevertheless he findeth this to have been the constant practise of the Church both in the Old and New Testament established by the express word of God and received by the Fathers in all ages for in the Old Testament from Deut. 17. from 8. to 13. we read that GOD did command the people in matters of controversie to go to the Priests Levits and judge who should be in those days appointed by him for that end saying and thou shalt do according to the sense of the law which they shal teach thee and according to the judgement which they shal tell thee Remark he saith not according to the sense of the law which thou shalt read but which they shal teach thee not taken according to the privat judgement and spirit but according to the judgmeÌ„t which they shal tel thee where God promiseth out of their mouth judicii veritateÌ„ truth and verity in judgement or as you turn it sentence of judgement See for this also 2. Chr. 19. 8. where Jehosophat established what was first instituted Viz. a council of Levits Priests and chief fathers of Israel to judge not only between brethren and brethren blood and blood but also betwixt law and coÌ„mandments statutes and judgements Not leaving law and commandments to the peoples privat reading and interpretation as you do in your rule of faith In the 11. verse he concludeth thus Amaziah is over you in all matters of the Lord where it is evident that the council and chief Priest is established judge of controversie and not the written Word as every one readeth and expoundeth In the New Testament again you have this practise clearly set down Acts. 15. Where Paul and Barnabas though Apostles themselves go up to Jerusalem about the question of circumcising the Gentiles converted to the faith And there was holden the first council in which this is decided not out of Scripture but by the authority of the Council it self It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and us said they having the assured promise of the assistance of the Holy Ghost as the Church hath at all time Wherefore after the Apostles councils have decided with the same authority and upon the same infallible ground of the Holy Ghosts assistance promised to the Church Many controversies are acknowledged by Protestants for points of faith without express passage of Scripture Marcion teaching that Baptism should be conferred more then once and Donatists that Baptism conferred by Hereticks should be reiterated as invalid are condemned in the council holden at Rome under Melchiadâ—s Pope in the year 313. now what passage of Scripture I pray you is for this Sâ—bellius putting one person only in the God-head is câ—ndemned in the council of Alexandria under Pope Cornelius in the year 319. but scripture maketh no mention of persons Nestorius putting two persons in Christ is condemned in the Generall Council holden at Ephesus under Pope Caelestin the year 434. Yet neither doth the Scripture speak of thâ—â— The Monotheliâ—s giving to Christ one will in two Natures are condemned in the third general Câ—uncil holden at Constantinople under Pope Agathon the year 679. albeit there be no formal scripture for this So you see it belongeth both in the Old and New Testament to the high Priest and general Council to decide controversie either by Scripture if there be any passage clear for that point or without Scripture by Apostolick tradition conserved in the Church which scripture it self warranteth 2. Thess 2. 15. Hold fast the traditions which ye have learned either by word or our epistle but it seemeth you care not who be condemned or by whom if you take away all power on earth to condemne your selves Every Protestant will be condemned by none but Scripture and yet will make none judge of the Canon Version and sense of Scripture but himself All your answer is that we grant the Promulgation of the law to the pure Gospel Church but you shew not what is this pure Gospel Church neither can you infallibly prove the purity of the Gospel it self or that there is a Gospel or the true sense of the Gospel but by the Catholick Church her authority Hear Aug. contta Ep. fund cap. 5. Where he saith I my self would not have believed the Gospel were it not that the authority of the Church moved me to it Now the Catholick Church is that whose faith is spread through all the world in the Apostle Paul his time which maketh her to be justlie called the Catholick Roman Church and whose faith hath been in all ages since Christ which all the records of the Protestant writters witness of the Roman Church wherein the succession of Popes Bishops Councils is made conspicuous to all who have written Chronology or Church history in every age none whereof make mention of your Church or of men professing your tenets before Luther and Calvin from whom ye dissent in many things Answer first This is a prolix reply the Pro. Du. 1 substance of which might have been taken up in seven or eight lines As it is spacious so it is an impertinent rapsodie and like a beggers cloak clouted here and there with divers parcells without any method or cohesion It seemeth to have been taken out of some Index and cast in here to fill the page For the answer was That the promulgation of the law is not denyed to the pure Gospell-Church which is not the Roman-Church for it is impure Is not this a direct answer You prove that there hath been a Ministerial-Church in the old and new Testament which we doe not deny but this is the point did they so pronounce sentence and decide Controversies that all discretive judgement was taken from people or called they themselves infallible whether they had scripture warrand or not Or wil the promise of presence to the Apostles Prophets and penners of Scripture in measure and duration agree to any Church Officers now on Earth Or should promises made to the Universal-Church agree to any particular Church such as Rome Or will promises made to the collective body of the Church agree to the representative unless these be proved you fight with your own shadow For we are much for the authority of Christs Church and think that her judgment of old and late should sway privat men unless they can prove by scripture or sound reason that she erreth We are much for the authority of all lawful Councils and we give them all reverence in regard of the authority of their constitution but if they depart from the scriptures we owe them not active obedience Well speaketh our learned Camero tom 1. tract de infallibilitate ecclesiae So oft as any thing is decreed by a Council or assembly of men appointed by lawfull autharity
to baptize Canon 100. ye allow it The Sacrament was administred in the primitive Church to all present and they who did not partake were appointed to remove Ite missa est exite foras qui non vultis accipere Sacramentum i. e. Go it is closed go forth ye that will not receive the Sacrament Now the words are muttered and administred before all They took with their hand and the bread was broken of old Now it is not for ye make whole wasers and put them into their mouth For fourthteen hundred years the Church appointed the Sacrament to be administred by bread and wine to the people all Christians of whatever judgement except Papists do so communicat as yet Petau de poenit pub lib. 2. sheweth that it cannot be denyed nisi ab homine insigniter supra omnem modum vel impudenti vel imperito i. e. Except by a man remarkably and above all measure either impudent or unskilful that this was the primitive practise yet the Council of Constance hoc non obstante and the Council of Trent decree the contrar The primitive Church heard nothing of the Popes universal supremacie or infallibility which now by you iâ— made Summa rei See Cyprian ep 55. â—â— Cornelius Bishop of Rome and how he stileth him fâ—ater c. and he saith that they were formerly chosen to officiat Non sine consensu plebis not without the Popes consent ep 68. Ipsa plebs habet potestatem c. Is not this far from your imperious pompous way of Monarchy how then can you so boldly averre that ye have the unanimous consent of Councills and fathers for you when indeed ye do not regard them so much as we Hear your own Cornelius Mus †See Dâ—lleus ubi supra ep Biâ—ont in ep ad Rom. cap 14. Ego ut ingenue fâ—teâ—r plus uni summo pontisici crederem in his quae fidei misteria tangunt quam mâ—lle Hieronymis Augustinis Gregoriis Credo enim scio quod summus Pontifex in his quae fidei sunt errare non potest quia auctoritas determinandi quae ad fidem spectant in Pontisice residet i. e. That I may ingenuously confesse I would give more credit to one Pope in tâ—e things which belong to the misteries of truth then to a thousand such as Augustin Jerom or Gregory For I know certainly that the Pope cannot erre in these things that belong to faith because the authority of determining matters of saith resideth in the Pope yet ignorant people are made to believe that Papists have the consent and practise of the primitive Church along with them and Melchior Canus lâ—c Theol. lib. 7. cap. 3. num 10. Sequi majores nostros per omnia in illorum vestigiis pedes nostros figere ut pueri faciunt per lusum nihil aliud est quam ingenia nostra dâ—mnare judicio nos privare nostro facultate inquirendae veritatis i. e. to follow our ancestors in all things and to â—race their footsteps and fixe in them as children use to do in play is no other thing but to condemn our own wit and to deprive our selves of our own judgement and faculty of searching the truth Salmeron in cap. 5. epist ad Rom. disp 5. asserteth quo juniores eo perspicaciores sunt doctores and citeth Exod. 23. follow not the multitude viz. of ancients This is sufficient to prove that as the Papists are jealous of Scripture so are they of the Primitive Church her consent But it is alleadged that ye have the word of God for your warrand Matth. 16. 18. Matth. 18. 18. 1. Tim. 3. 15. To this I answere that the first Text is meaned of the collective body of the Church which fall not away this is clear from the context for it is the Church builded on that confession mentioned by the Apostles and an house so builded cannot fall because it is builded on a rock Matth. 7. 25. Yet it will not follow that there be no drops in it for particular beleevers cannot totally and finally fall away but that they are infallible who can say see Iohn 10. 28. and comyare it with 1. Cor. 13. 9. Iames 3. 2. beside your own writters interpret it so see Melchior Canus lib. 5. de loc Theol. cap. 5. and Panormitan on the place The second Text Mat. 18. is to be understood of a particular Church which you grant is not infallible so Chrysostom interpreteth the place and it is further clear from the Connexion for it is the Church to which appeals should be made in prima instantia this undoubtedly is a particular Church But admitting that it is meaned of the universal church your Pope nor your Church is not it The third Text 1. Tim. 3. 15. holdeth forth no more then what is granted in the answer to the fourth question or if you please to take learned Cameron his exposition who knitteth these words with the 16. verse you may do well But what ever be the priviledges of the true Gospel Church which is the Bride of Jesus Christ Rome hath forefaulted all these and is but a leprous part of the universal Church you grant that the church of Rome is but a particular church Why plead you then for the whole priviledges of the universal Church Is not this absurd arrogance Nor doth Calvin Hospinian Luther or White speak absolutly as ye alleadge but assert that the generality for a time was leavened by Popery which is truth But what then followeth That the mysterie of iniquity did arise by degrees and over-runne all for the most we grant so did the Arrian heresie therefore was not Athauasius and such as adbered to the truth right in their way The whole world in the Apostles time did ly in wickedness 1. Iohn 5. 19. Therefore were they not Sons of truth who endeavoured a Gospel reformation Your last hold is tradition and you say we are commanded to hold them 2. Thes 2. 15. for this you cite Aug. Cyprian St. Dennis Epiphanius To this I answer we are not against Apostolick traditions nor Church history in matters of fact We make use of traditions there mentioned But for your Legends we deny that they are such and disclaim them Have you Sir learned Logick Why do you argument so a genere ad speciem affirmative Is this a good argument Est annual ergo est homo he is a living creature therefore he is a man Can this be better there were traditions delivered to the Church of Thessalonica ergo yours are these Credat Judaeus Appella Secondly If there were unwritten traditions why do you dare to writ these things which the Apostles would not writ Thirdly Will that argue the Scripture of imperfection You may as well argue the Minister writteth a book the summe of which he hath preached to people Ergo his book is imperfect You have then to prove for your end that these traditions mentioned 2. Thess 2. 15. were