reformatione ecclesiae and Wicelius method concord PAR. VI Touching the visibility and invisibility of the church in a different notion CHALLENGE For to say as some protestants do the church was long invisible besides that it is contrary to many clear prophecies and predictions of the old testament it barreth the heathen of necessary means to salvation whilst he seeketh not the true church with which to joyn hâ—â—ds and amongst christians this invisibility supposed it were very hard to hold communion with her in the administration of the sacraments Answer What protestants affirm that the catholike visible church to wit the company of those who professe the true christian faith was a long time invisible We deny that the church was ever driven to such straights or reduced to such a paucitie or obscuritie much lesse invisibility but that new proselytes might have accesse unto her and her own members communicate with her in the pledges of salvation though not always without danger to their persons and estates And therefore when you fight against an invisible church professing christianity you fight also against an invisible adversary and pursue your own fancie as Antipho in Aristotle imagined that he drave his own image in the ayr before him Of this see more at large in the Preface PAR. VII Concerning the visibility of the Roman church and how the Papacie hath been opposed in former ages CHALLENGE We then affirm and let â—ur adversaries disprove it if they can that the Roman church hath been always visible Answer That a Roman church hath been always in some degree visible we yeeld you gratis but that the Roman church you mean hath been so we peremptorily deny When we grant that a Roman church hath been always visible our meaning is that since the christian faith was at first planted by the preaching of the prime apostles and watered with the blood of many millions of martyrs there hath been always in Rome and the territories thereof and provinces belonging to it a church professing christian doctrine in the beginning most purely in the middle more impurely but in the end and at this day most corruptly And what gain you hereby that the Roman church you mean that is that church or rather that faction in the church for papatus est in ecclesia papatus tamen non est ecclesia which professeth the present Roman faith and adhereth to the Pope as supreme head of the church hath been always visible It will no way follow christianity may be and was many hundred yeers without popery and a church in Rome also but as far different from the present Roman church as Sicily in Verres time was from the more ancient Sicily and therefore as the oratour sought for Sicily in the most fruitfull parts of Sicily so we at this day are to seek for the Roman saith and church so much commended by the apostles in Rome it self and find it anywhere in the christian world rather than there To instance in the controversie about the head which is the head of all controversies between us and from whence you take your denomination of paâ—ists and papalins we deny that there was any christian church at Rome or else-where for many hundred yeers after Christ which acknowledged the Popes supremacie or built their faith upon his infallibility St. Paul we know accounted himself nothing inferiour to the chief apostles If your eyes be so dazled with the brightnesse of the Popes triple crown that you cannot see Pauls equality to Peter and consequently the equality of other bishops to the pope in the letter of the text yet you cannot but see it in the fathers commentaries Hoc dicit saith S. Ambrose quia non est minor neque in praedicatione neque in signis faciendis nec dignitate sed tempore that is this the apostle speaketh to wit I am nothing inferiour to the chief apostles because he is not lesse or inferiour neither â—n the gift of preaching nor in the gift of miracles nor in dignity but in time What not inferiour to S. Peter no not to S. Peter if S. Chrysostome take him right As the Apostle calleth the Gentiles uâ—circumcision so he calleth the Iews circumcision And he sheweth himself to be of equall honour with the rest and he compares not himsâ—lf to others but to the chief of them shewing that every of them held the same rank of dignity {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} saith Oecumenius {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} see how he matcheth or equallizeth himself to Peter Nay which is more remarkable Pope Leâ— who when he took Peter alone extolleth him above the skies and admitteth him after a sort in consortium individuae Trinitatis that is into the fellowship or copartnership of the undivided Trinity yet meeting with Peter and Paul together he doth equall homage and reverence to them both and forbiddeth us to put any difference between them in this or any other respect De quorum meritis virtutibus quae omnem superant dicendi facultatem nihil diversum sentire debemus nihil discretum quos electio pares labor similes mors fecit aequales of whose worth and vertues which surpasse all ability of speech we ought to have no diverse or different opinion of them whose calling to the apostleship made them equaâ—l and their travels in their office alike and their martyrdom parallel Here he compareth them not onely in regard of their personall gifts and labours but of their calling and function electio pares S. Paul then in Pope Leo's judgement may go every where hand in handwith S. Peter he hath the right hand of him in the Popes seal as is confessed by Bellarmine who much troubleth himself to yeeld a sufficient reason thereof And as S. Paul stood upon even ground as it were with S. Peter and witâ—…tood him to the face so did Polycarpus contest with Anicotus and Polycrates with Victor against whom he wrote a synodicall epistle and S. Cyprian with Pope Stephen And therefore AEneas Sylvius afterwards Pope had good reason to affirm though Bellarmin gives him the lye for it that before the councell of Nice parvus respectus ad Romanam ecclesiam habebatur that is that there was little account made of the Roman church or bishop At the councell of Nice which was neither called nor ratified by his authoritie but the Emperor Constantines all the preeminence he had amounted but to a primacy of order and his authority and jurisdiction exceeded not Rome suburbicas ecclesias as Ruffinus hath it After the councell of Nice he contented himself with the style of Urbis Romae episcopus the bishop of the city of Rome The church of Carthage forbad under pain of excommunication any in Carthage to appeal from their courts ad transmarina judicia intending to the see of Rome In the synods held at Calcedon and Constantinople the patriarch of
Mahumetans as fix and the idolatrous as nineteen O lamentable estate of the world Quis talia fâ—â—dâ— temperet a lachrymis how much larger is the heard of satan than the flock of Christ if you restrain your note of universalitie to such as professe the worship of God in Christ and thereby exclude the Payniâ—â—s and Mahumâ—tans yet so it will not stead you for it is most certain that the partie of christians which oppose the papacy is incomparably the greatest in number If to the protestants in the western church you add the eastern churches professing christian faith in a great part of Europe Asia and Africa they will bear down the scale to the ground To speak nothing of the Abâ—ssinâ—â— and AEthiopians largely dispread in the kingdoms of Prâ—ster Iohn to omit the patriarch of Muscovia the archbishops of Moldâ—via and Walachia Under the Turk there are foâ—â— pâ—triarchs at this day to wit the patriarch of Constantinople of Alâ—xâ—ndria Antiochia and Ierusalem and that these patriarchs are not like some of your bishops whom Pâ—normitan fitly calls nullatenenses appeâ—rs by the catalogue of archbishops subject to the pâ—triarch of Conâ—… sâ—t down by Curopalata which are these 1. The archbishop of Casâ—rea in Câ—ppâ—dâ—cia 2. Ephesus 3. Heracleâ— 4. Aâ—… 5. 〈◊〉 6. Sardis 7. Necomedia 8. Nicea 9. Calcedon 10. Mitylene 11. Thessalonica 12. Laodicea 13. Synadae 14. Ieonium 15. Corynth 16. Athens 17. Patrae 18. Trupezuntium 19. Larissae 20. Naupactus 21. Adrianopolis These archbishops have many bishops under them the archbishop of Ephesus 2. of Moldavia 3. of Walachia 3. of Heraclea 7. of Thessalonica 9. of Corynth 10. of Athens 11. of Larissae 13. of Muscovia 17. not to over-charge your memory with more under the patriarchs All those christians besides many more of the Greek church professing Christ differ from your Roman church in many substantiall points of faith They â—cknowledge no supremacy of the Pope have no faith in his infallibility nor trust in his pardons they disclaim merits and works of supererogation purgatory transubstantiation are no articles of their faith they allow marriage of priests they cannot away with the mutilation of the sacrament by depriving the laytie of the cup they teach the perfection and sufficiencie of the scripture they have the scripture and the church lyturgie in their severall languages understood by their people The Muscâ—vits in the Muscâ—vitish the Arâ—bians in the Arabick the Georgians in the Iberick the Carmonians in the Carmanick the Colâ—hians Slavonians Grecians in their known Greek or other peculiar languages therefore it is not safe for you to put the truth of religion upon this poynt Were the rule of multitude of visible professors of religion certâ—in and infallible Miâ—hea were to be condemned and the 400. prophets of Ahaâ— to be justified Ieremy to be abandoned and all the prophets that were in Iuda and Ierusalem whom â—ose against him to be followed Nay Christ the truth it self to be traduced and reproved and the coâ—â—cell of the chief priests and elders held against him to be maintained and approved Had you lived in Athanasius his days we know where to have had you questionlesse not of his side who had all the world in a manner against him as the speech of the Arrian Emperouâ— to Liberius imports Whâ—â— a petty part art thou of the world Who art thou that â—etteâ—â— thy self against the world In S. Iohnâ— time the whole world was set on wickednesse and in Athanasius his time upâ—n heresie â—oâ—us mâ—â—dus saith S. Hierom gemuit se factâ—… Arrâ—anum the whole worlâ— grâ—aned because it became Arriaâ— What becomes now of your note of universaâ—itie To this poynt I earnestly desire particular satisfaction which I have not yeâ— received from any Româ—… catholike or universalist as they would be called PAR. XIII Where the true church was when the Roman fell CHALLENGE Or if they cannot do this as we well know they cannot let them labour to assign us another catholike church distinct from the Roman when she as they falsly suppose fell from her first truth Answer We cannot prove our true church by the false marks you have set down neither can you prove your false church by the true marks set down by us Eminent visibilitie illustrious ample unversalitie and anti-christian combination under one head the Pope are no marks as hath bin shewed of the true church And what then if we cannot prove our doctrin by them Then you say let them labour to assign us another catholike church distinct from the Roman when she as they falsly suppose fell from her first truth I have already shewed a church more ample than yours and not only distinct from your Roman but opposite to it as much as we in the most sundamentall poynt to wit the papacy yea so opposite that the first sunday in Lent when they solemnly curse all hereticks as Arrius Macedonius Eutyches Nestorius Apollinaris c. they pronounce in like manner an Anathema to the Pope But what an argument is this If you cannot prove your church by the fore-named false marks then assign us some other church distinct from the Roman in which these marks are conspicuous To passe by this your lame inference and make the best of such poor stuff as you bring out of your own words a man may pick out such an argument either the Roman church continued still the church or when she sell away some other church must be assigned which persevered in the truth else there should be no Church in the world If this be that you would say the answer to this your objection is very easie on our parts for we charge not the Latin church with defection from the true faith universally but the chief governoâ—rs and leaders thereof or to speak more fully that prevalent and predominant faction in the church of Rome that hath born sway for some hundreds of years which we say is plunged into many dangerous and pestilent errors and superstitions yet not into all errors at one leap but they sunk into them by degrees when then this faction in the Roman church which we call the papacy or the kingdom of anti-christ or the Mystery of iniquitie threw it self into an open gulf of error or heresie we say that that part of the Roman church and elsewhere which both secretly and openly impugned such error and heresie and in as much as in them lay stopt such corruptions at the entrance were the true church as for example when the fore-named faction by Boniface the third Phocas his means brought first into the church the Luciferian title and anti-christian power of oecumenicall or universall bishop and head of the whole church they in the Greek and Latin church which opposed it were the true church When the same faction by Irene and Pope Adrians means decreed the worshiping of images in the second councell of Nice those who made head against them and
if God strictly examin them or that true holinesse and sanctifying grace may be lost or that masses may be celebrated without communicants or that princes have not authority over ecclesiasticall persons or that images are to be adored or that men may merit by their works eternall life or that a child of God ought to doubt of Gods mercy and may not be assured of his salvation or that it belongeth not to princes to call ecclesiasticall assemblies or that the church in the most strict sense consisteth not of the elect only or that the whole church consisting of laity as well as clergy may not participate the mysteries of the body and blood of Christ entirely drinking of the holy cup as well as eating of the bread Let him be accursed Methinks I hear you already cry out with her in the Poet Heu patior telis vulnera facta meâ—s Oâ— with the eagle in Iulians mâ—tto feeling her self deadly wounded with an arrow feathered out of her own wing Nostris configimur alis PARAG. XIX Concerning the faith of Constantine CHALLENGE Or lastly if you desire to go neerer to the times of the apostles we will joyn with you to prove our faith in the days of Constantine the great who first built and opened christian churches and gave freedom for christians to come together and to know and publish to the world what was held by them which before could not so well be done by reason of the perfecâ—tions in which the church had been 〈◊〉 then generally eclipsed Answer From S. Gregory you step up immediately to Constantine the great and at once stride over 300 years in which time the prime and flower of the Greek and Latin fathers lived and dyed would none of them father your Church You take an oath if you be magistri in theologia to expound scripture non â—isi juxta unaâ—… câ—â—sensum patrum according to the unanimous consent of the fathers this joynt consent can very hardly be found in the interpretation of the â—…ures before Constantiâ—â—s time because few before that time commented upon the holy scripture at least whose works are come to our hands and therefore you should have especially instanced in the fathers from Constantines time to S. Gregoâ—â—s but as Festus answered Paul so think I fit to answer you Caâ—…em appellâ—…â—d Câ—sarem ibis you have appealed to Constantine and to Constantine you shall go of whom I may say truely that which the Fre 〈…〉 sometimes spake before him gloâ—ingly tu no 〈…〉 illâ—◠〈◊〉 faciâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Britains by â—â—y 〈◊〉 for though Liâ—… heâ—… not Iustus goeth about to rob us of this brouch and brightest lustre of our nation denying us the honour of his birth as you do of his faith yet I doubt not but to make good against him and you that Constantine is ours body and soul and to resolve you in point of his birth and native soyle which was this our Iland I refer you to Baronius for his faith to Eusebius Socrates Sozomen Arnobius Lactantius Minutius Foelix Athanasius Epiphanius and Greg. Nazianzen and divers others who lived in the same time or not long after him Let the faith generally beleeved and received in the age wherein this blessed Emperour lived serve as a touchstone to examine our pure and precious and your drossie and counterfeit faith and first let us begin with the ground of all faith the holy scriptures 1. We teach that the canon of the old testament consisteth of 22. books only excluding the apocryphall which your councell of Trent confoundeth with the canonicall Let the first quaere then be whether did the church in Constantines time hold with your canon or ours To this let the councell of Laodicea speak qua autem oporteat legi in authoritatem recipi haec sunt Genesis Exodus c. These books which ought to be read and received as authenticall and canonicall are these following Gen. Exod c. In which catalogue none of the apocryphall books are mentioned Let Athanasius inform us who reckons but 22. books of the old testament as we do and after him Greg. Nazian. most expresly brandeth the apocrypha with a note of bastardy {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} Which Greek verses a wel-willer to your church hath translated into Latin At tua ne libris fallatur mens alienis Hunc habeas certum numerum a me lector â—â—ice Tot nempe Hebrâ—â— quot sunt elementa loquelae Quicquid pratorea est hand inter certa loc anduâ— The Greek word for word is thus to be Englished I have sâ—â— down 22. books of the old testament agreeable to the number of the Hebrew letters â—â—d 〈◊〉 â—e found any besides these â—… to be counted among the true and genuine books of the old Testament 2. We with Tertullian adore the pleâ—â—tude of scriptures aâ—â—ibing to them this perfection that they contain in them all things necessary to salvation You maintain on the contrary that the written word alone is not a sufficient and perfect rule and therefore you add unto it the unwritten word which you call cradâ—ion Which part did Constantine take and the church in his time let Athanasius be heard in this case Sufficiunt per se sacroe divinâ— us inspiratae luâ—rae ad veritatis indicationem The holy inspired scriptures are sufficient of themselvs for the declaration of the truth let â—aâ—tantiâ—â— be heard Cyprian was so ravished with the excellent knowledge of the holy scriptures that he was content with them alone upon which faith is built Let us hear Constantine himself who sitting in a golden chair as president and moderator in the first and most famous councell of Nice recommendeth the books of the old and new testament to the fathers assembled in that councell in these words the books of the evangelists and apostles and the oracles of the ancient prophets do plainly instruct us what to conceive of divine matters therefore setting aside all enmity and discord let us from the words inspired by God take the resolution of those things that are in question which most christian direction of this most noble Emperour swayed much with the fathers in that synod yet cardinall Bellarmin makes light of it and gives the Emperour a slurr for it lib. 4. de verbe Dei non scripto cap. 11. Respondeo hoc testimonium non esse tanti faciendum erat enim Constantinus magnus Imperator non magnus ecclesiae Doctor I answer that this testimony is not of so great moment for Constantine was indeed a great Emperour but not a great Doctor of the church 3. We teach that the wood of Christs crosse is not to be worshipped at all much lesse with divine worship you teach on the contrary that the crosse of Christ is to be adored cultu latria that is with the highest kind of
{non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} or rather we offer a commemoration of that sacrifice Iâ— S. Chrysâ—stome had beleeved as you now do that the true body of Christ is properly offered and his blood truely shed in the daily sacrifice of the masse he should have corrected his former correction of himself and said what said I we rather offer a memoriall of Christs sacrifice nay rather we offer the very sacrifice it self Christs body and blood and that truely and properly 7. We teach that images may not be set up in churches to worship God by theÌ„ much lesse to worship the images themselvs you on the contrary maintain the erecting censing clothing kissing kneeling before and worshipping of images From which idolatry superstition how fat the church was in Constantines age appears by the canon of the councell of Eliberis the act of Epiphanius the judgement of Eusebius and the joynt testimony of Minutius Felix and Lactantius The 36 canon of the councell of Eliberis is very expresse against images and pictures in churches placuit picturas in ecclesia esse non debere ne quod colitur aut adoratur in parictibus depingatur It seemed good to us or we have determined that no images or pictures be in churches lest that which is worshiped and adored be painted on the walls When S. Epiphanius saw that canon neglected and the law of God violated in that poynt his zeal kindâ—ed within him he tare down a vâ—il rent it in the middle which he found hanging on the church walls at Anablathra because it had on it an image as it had bin of Christ or some saint More over he gave charge to those of that place not to hang up any more such veils against the expresse command of God Eusebius was no better affected to images then Epiphanius for in his epistle to Constantia who desired him to send her an image of Christ he contendeth by many arguments that no true image of Christ may be drawn neither according to his divine nature nor according to his humane not according to his divine because no man hath â—ver seen or can see that not according to his humane because we have learned that his humane nature or form of a servant is â—ingled with or united to the glory of his divine dignity and who will undertake with dead colours to expresse the brightnesse of that glory and dignitie Minutius Felix upon another reason dislikes the dedicating of any image to God put aâ— nos occultare quod credimus si delubra ar as non habemus quod enim simulacrum Deo fingam eum si recte existimes sit dei homo ipse simulacrum Dost thou think that we conceal what we worship because we have no place for images nor altars I pray what images shall I make to God seeing if we judge rightly man himself is Gods image Lactantius is warmer in the cause he concludes peremptorily that religion and images cannot stand together wherefore out of doubt there is no religion where there is an image therefore out of doubt none in your church where there are so many images for if religion be a divine thing and there is nothing divine but in things that are heavenly images therefore are voyd of religion because there can be nothing heaâ—enly in that thing which is of the earth The same Lactantius lib. 2. divinarum institut cap. 2. excludes all images even of the true God as needlesse and superâ—â—uous the image of a man seems then to be needfull when the man himself iâ— away but it is of no use when he is present therefore the image of God is ever superfluous and of no use because his spirit and deity being every where present can never be absent from us You see he layes hard at your images and he endeavours as vehemently to blow out your wax lights They light candles to God as if he were in the dark can he be thought well in his wits who offers candles or wax lights to God for a gift who is the author and giver of all light If this strong breath of Lactantius being but single cannot blow out the lights that burn continually in your churches yet methinks the joynt and conspiring breath of all the fathers assembled in the councell at Eliberis cannot but puff them quite out It is to be forbidden that candles be publikely lighted if any do presume to do otherwise let them keep from the communion In fine to draw the arrow you have put into Constantines bow to the head against the errors and superstitions of your present Romish church prove to me by any good and uncontrolable testimony that publike service in an unknown tongue or masses without communicants or communion of the laity without the cup or making images of the three persons of the Trinity or worshipping images or crosses or selling pardoâ—â— for the release of souls out of purgatory or elevation or circumgestation of the host in pompous procession or praying upon beads or hallowing meddals and Agnus Dei's or blessing salt spittle water c. or christening bells and gallies or going on pilgrimage to the images of Christ our Lady and other saints or whipping themselvs in penance for their own sins or the sins of others or such like customs and fites of your now Romish church were in practice in Constantine his time Prove that the treasury of saints merits and works of supererogation or unwritten traditions in matter of faith or justification before God by inherent righteousnes or any sin in its own natâ—re veniall and not against the law of God but only beside it or esteeming the Apocryphall books of the old testament for canonicall scriptures or equalizing the Latin vulgat translation of the old and new testament to the originalls in Hebrew Greek or seven sacraments properly so called or the Popes infallibitie or his transcendent authority to gratifie or disannull the acts of generall councells to canonize saints to dispence with oaths and vows to depose kings and dispose of their kingdoms or the suspending the effect of the sacrament upon the intention of the priest or accidents without subjects or rats and mice eating Christs body or the putting it in many thousand places at once or any the like assertions of your Romish doctors were any part of Constantines beleef and the day shall be yours In the mean time if as your challenge and the promise of your friends deeply engage you you shall think of a reply to this my answer I require three things of you First that according to our Saviour his rule you mete the same measure to me which I mete to you by setting down my whole answers in my own words that the reader may see what you answer to each particular and what you balk as also how direct and pertinent your replyes shall be Secondly that you be not guilty of that which
most part taken in the latter sense as in the creed of Athanasius whosoever will be saved must hold the catholike faith that is the orthodox faith which he there setteth down for at that time when he wrote that creed of his was not catholike in the first sense that is generally and uâ—â—versally received if that be true which Vincentius writeth the pâ—…son of the Arrians did not infect only a portion of the church but 〈◊〉 a manner â—ainâ—ed the whole world insomuch that almost all the laâ—â—n bishops being surprised by fraud or by force had a mist cast before their eys In neither of these two senses of the word can either your church or your faith or your persons be termed catholike Not your church for Dr. Reynolds hath long ago demonstrated in his second Thesis thaâ—… present Roman church is neither the catholike church of Christ nor a sound member thereof not your faith for that as I said before so farre as it differs from ours is patcht up of many heresies not your persons for they are singular or individuall and therefore cannot be catholikes that is â—â—iversall Here you use to alledge for your selvs a passage out of Pacianus christian is my name and catholike is my sirname But what is this to you unlesse you could prove that Pacianus held your Trent faith when you prove that I will immediatly turn Roman catholike till you shew some affinity between your faith and his you cannot challenge his sirname catholike As for his meaning in this his elegant motto christian is my name and catholike is my sirname he alludeth evidently to the manner of the Romans and some other nations who used to give their children two names at least one common as Marcus or Cneius or Caius the other proper as Cicero or Crassus or Anthony or Pompey and the sense his words carry is this christian is a name which I have in common with all that in any sort beleeve the gospel and are neither Jews not Paynims but catholike is my proper name whereby I am distinguished from divers sorts of christians to wit all those who professe christianity in generall yet not purely but with mixture of some heresie or schismatically sever themselvs from the communion of the catholike that is the universall church and truly the name catholike in his days as also in the days of S. Austin when the hereticks were but a handfull and lurked but in corners here and there was a distinctive term for then the hereticks in regard of their paucitie could not with any colour pretend to the name catholike but afterwards when heresies became catholike that is spread over the whole face of the church and the orthodox christians were far fewer in number the title catholike ceased to be a note of distinction and the word orthodox was used in stead thereof to distinguish true beleevers from all miscreants hereticall or schismaticall PARAG. II. Concerning the attributes of our christian faith true divine and infallible Challenge That there is always one and but one true divine and infallible faith professed by the church of Christ without which none can please God or attain to salvation c. Answer When I read your preface and compared it with that which followeth I could not but think of Oretes pots sent for a present to Polycrates in which there was a little gold laid on the top and under it nothing but trash for after these two golden assertions of the unity and immutability of the true divine and infallible faith laid as it were in the top of your discourse there is nothing to be found under them but lead and trash as shall appear hereafter in the gaging it I grant there is one and but one true divine and infallible faith but you should have explicated how but one and in what sense Divine and infallible faith hath been always and is one for substance though not for circumstance all beleevers even from Adam were though not in name yet in truth christians Christ and his meritorious actions and passions were the object of their faith as well as ours but they beleeved in Christ to come we in Christ that is come we and they resemble the spies that carried the bunch of grapes on their shoulders the former who went before looked backward the latter who went behind looked forward on the grapes they looked forward with the eys of their faith on the incarnation passion resurrection and ascension of Christ to come we look backward on these as past they saw Christ in foregoing types we in succeeding sacraments Yea but it may be objected that many new articles of faith are daily declared and many new theologicall conclusions found out else how should knowledge encrease How then is the faith of the church always one For answer hereunto I will borrow Vincentius his decision what saith he is there no profiting in Christs school no growth in faith and the knowledge of salvation Yes very great but provided always that this progresse be a going forward in the same way to heaven not a turning out of the way an improvement of faith no change that is holding the same principles of faith we may and ought daily by the studies of scriptures deduce new conclusions but such as are vertually contained in those principles not such as are any way repugnant to them so long as we mutilate not our creed by dis-beleeving or mis-beleeving any article of it and whatsoever we offer farther to be beleeved we cleerly and evidently conclude from scriptures or other prime and fundamentall articles of christian religion the faith of the church is still one Secondly this faith is said to be divine in a three-fold regard 1. Of the object which is God 2. The efficient which is the spirit of God 3. The motive which is the word of God or the authoritie of the speaker which is divine and because God cannot deceive nor be deceived hence it followeth that the faith which is grounded upon his word is infallible and such is the faith of the reformed church of England one divine and infallible whereas on the contrary your romish faith is neither one nor divine nor infallible Not one for you differ one from another in many substantiall points of faith as is proved Paragraph the X. Nor divine for the last resolution of your faith is unto the church a company of men subject to error Nor is it infallible for it is partly grounded upon unwritten traditions which vary partly upon the decrees of Popes and councels which contradict one the other the generall synod held at Ariminum contradicted the first of Nice in the point of Christs deity the councell at Frankeford contradicted the second councell of Nice in the point of images the generall councell held at Lateran contradicted the generall councell at Basil in the point of supremacie and I could with a wet finger produce divers decrees of Popes out
which are contained in the creed only they speak evill of the Roman church and clergy â—o this popish inquiâ—â—tor I will add another Romish nomenclator namely Conradus Wimpina ex fagis who summeth up all his wits and readings to make a recapitulation of all hereticks and sectaries as he termeth them indeed such as have opposed the corrupt doctrin and practises of the Roman church and of these he gives us this pedegree the Lionists begat the Waldenses the Waldenses the Dulcinists the Dulcinists the Wickliffists the Wickliffistâ— the Hussites the Hussites the Lutherans You say these were all bnethren in iniquitie and joyned hands against the church of Roâ—e but yet they agreed not among themselvs not held the same doctrin which the protestants do at this day These are your shifts but Wimpina will beat you out of these dodges for first for the doctrin of the Lionists and Waldenses â—e delivereth it as followeth That the church of Rome is spirituall Babylon and a harlot that in the altar after consecration there is not the body of Christ but only consecrated bread which by a figure is said to be Christs body as it is said of the rock that it was Christ that the saints understand nothing of humane affairs upon earth that God alone is to be called upon there is no purgatory no veniall sins the benediction of salt ashes holy water c. hath no profit in it indulgences pardons and jubilees are of â—o worth the images of saints are not to be kept in churches nor to be worshipped exorcisms are vain and unprofitable Whereunto Rainerius addeth the Waldenses do not receive the canon of the masse they say that the offering which is made in the masse by the priest is nothing nor doth any way profit they dislike canonicall hours they say that the church did erre in forbidding priests marriages they disallow the sacraments of confirmation and extream unction they condemn latin prayers and say they doe the people no good they beleeve not the legends of saints they esteem the holy crosse no other then simple and bare wood they affirm that prayers for the dead do not at all profit the souls of the departed and lastly that the doctrin of Christ and the apostles without the ordinances of the church is sufficient to salvation If any desire to read more concerning the doctrin of the Lionists Albigenses and Waldenses and their agreement with the present reformed churches in every point of moment I refer him to the confession of the Waldenses exhibited to Uladislaus King of Hungary in the year of our lord 1508. extant in Orthwinâ—s Grâ—tius and to the writings of Lucas Tudensis Plichdorâ—ius and others against the Waldenses set forth by Iames Gretzer at Ingolstad An. 1613. Now that Dulcinists and Wickliffists received their doctrin from these Waldenses or Lionists the same Wimpina clearly testifieth Wickliffe faith he suckt heresies which he endeavoured to bring into England from the Waldenses and Iohn of Lion ring-leaders among hereticks And in the same book p. 21. he saith That Dulcinus in the year of our Lord 1306. was tainted with the errours of the Waldersâ—s and that he put all Europe into a kind of amazement and that in the mountains of Trent there is a remainder of the Dulciâ—â—sts even to this day And in the prologue of his fourth book he casts up the totall sum in this manner out of this recapitulation of heâ—esies â—f thou keepest it well in thy mind thou mayst see how heresies came out of England into Bohemia out of Bohemia into Saxony that is â—o let passe those things which are more ancient how they made a progresse from Oxford to Prague from Prague to Wittenberg so that Wickliffe Hâ—ss and Luther delivered them successively from hand to hand whence it appears that there is nothing uttered by the Luthera is at this day which was not before spoken of and taught by the Wickâ—â—ffists and Hussites This confession of Conradus Wimpina a very learned Romanist and a witnesse beyond exception against them is worth gold and may be fitly compared to the Bufonites a pretions stone well known yet taken out of the head of a toad for no better is this Wimpina full himself of the poyson of popery and swelling with malice against the Lutheran and all other reformed churches PARAG. XV Divine faith not to be built upon humane stories or records CHALLENGE If they cannot satisfie us in all these demands in which alone we offer to joyn issue with them then do we think the day to be ours If they can name any who did both beleeve and professe the protestant doctrin in all points let them do it and then if we doe not disprove them the day is theirs And seeing all is brought to this issue we wish your learned to encounter us in this only point and whatsoever they shall return for answer not belonging hereunto we shall account impertinent and unworthy reply as not direct to our purpose which is to find out a true catholike and visible church Answer To answer you in the doctrinall point though we could not satisfie you in these your historicall demands neither should your faith gain any thing by it nor ours lose for the main and leading question between us is which church yours or ours holdeth the true undoubted christian faith without which no man can be saved and in a second place what are the proper notes of the true church of which St. Cyprian speaketh truly Deum non potest habere patrem qui ecclesiaÌ„ non habet matrem he cannot have God for his father who hath not the church for his mother these are quaestiones de fide in a different degree now quaestiones de fide cannot be determined by humane stories as Ballarmin rightly deduceth for humane stories or records faciunt tantum fidem humanam cui falsum subesse potest that is make or beget an humane faith or rather credulity subject to errour not a divine and infallible beleef that must be built upon surer ground Although you could prove your present Romish beleef to be as ancient as the Sadduces heresie and as universally spread as the Arrian or of as interrupted continuance as the Nestorian this would not win you the day did all the ecclesiasticall stories which are extant give in evidence not only for the visibility but also for the sincerity of your present Romish church yet such a proof being meet humane would not amount to a divine infallible argument to build divine faith upon on the contrary if we can prove evidently by the written word of God that our faith not yours is that precious faith once given to the saints and that the doctrine of our church at this day perfectly accordeth with the harmony of the apostles and evangelists and consorteth in all points with the undoubted orthodoxal church in their times we need not alledge any stories or records for
the emperour though it were against his heart and conscience 6. For the canon of scriptures S. Gregory holds the book of Maccabees in the same rank as we do profitable to he read for the edification of the church but not to be produced as inspired by God and of infallible authority for the confirmation of any poynt of faith for being to alledge a testimony out of those books he makes way for it by this preface de qua re non inordinatè agimus si ex libris licet non canonicis sed tamen ad adificationem ecclesia editis testimonium proferamus touching which matter we do not amisse if we bring forth a testimony out of those books viz. the book of Maccabees there cited which though they are not canonicall yet they are set forth for the edification and instruction of the church 7. For adoration of images he detests it as much as we see his epistles upon record si quis imaginem facere voluerit minimè prohibe adorare vero imagines omnibus modis devita If any man will make an image forbid him not but by all means avoyd the worshipping of images Who will now be a papist when we see the Pope is become a zealous Calvinist 8. Touching merit of works S. Gregory teacheth as we do that we ought not to repose any confidence in our own merits non in fletibus non in actis nostris sed in advocati nostri allegatione confidamus let us not trust in our own weeping and bewayling of our sins nor in our own acts but in the intercession of our advocate and upon Iob si ad virtutis opus excrevero ad vitam non ex meritis sed ex venia convalesco If I grow to any work of vertue I am restored to life not by merits but by pardon I forbear to alledgemore testimonies out of S. Gregory touching this poynt because those many clear passages which I have produced out of him before against the perfection of inherent righteousnesse by a necessary consequence overthrow all merit of works also 9. Touching certainty of salvation S. Gregory conspireth with the doctrin of the reformed church for having alledged certain promises of Christ in the gospel to found it upon thus he concludes hac it aque fulti certitudine de redemptoris nostri misericordia nihil ambigere sed spe debemus indubit at a praesumere non enim muneris sui largitate frustrabitur Deus sed vires obtinendi prorsus indulget qui velle concessit nam jam ipsum desiderant oppetere donum est that is therefore being supported with this certainty we ought not to doubt c. Gregories doctrin like ours at this day is a doctrin of faith and confidence whereas the doctrin of the church of Rome at this day is a doctrin of distrâ—… of diffidence 10. Touching the power of calling synods or ecclesiasticall assemblies which you now arrogate to the Pope in S. Gregory his time as aâ—â—ay before it was in the emperours and christian princes agreeable to the tâ—â—et of the present church of England S. Gregory taketh notice of the emperour his masters command for the assembling of a synod in Rome it self juxta Christianissimi serenissiâ—i rerum domini jussionem ad beati Petri apostoli limina cum tuis sequacibus venire to volumus ut Authore Deo aggregata synodo de eaqua inter not vertitur dubâ—etate quod justum fuerit judicetur According to the command of our most christian and â—raâ—ions Lord we require thee to appear at S. Peters c. 11. Touching the definition of the church you scoff at us for â—efining the true and most proper church of Christ which we beleeve in the creed to be the whole number of Gods elect You term it an Idea Platonica or an aeÌ„reall and invisible body a Chymaera or Phantasme and yet S. Gregory describes the church as we do Christus secundum praescientiae suae gratiam sanctam ecclesiam de sanctis in aeternum permansuris extruxit Christ according to the grace of his fore-knowledge hath built on holy church of saints eternally persevering in grace and upon Ezck una ecclesia est electorum praecedentium atque sequentium There is one church of the elect going before and following after 12. Touching the blessed sacrament of the Lords Supper to be administred in both kinds it is evident that in * S. Gregories time the whole congregation consisting of the laity as well as the clergie participated of the holy cup his words are pretiost sanguinis effusione genus humanum Chrisâ—us redemit sacro-sancti vivifici corporis sui sanguinis mysterium membris suis tribuit cujus perceptione corpus suum quod est ecclesia pascitur potatur abluitur sanctificatur Christ by the effusion of his most precious blood redeemed all mankind and giveth to his members the mystory of his most holy quickning body and blood by the participation whereof his body which is the church is nourished with meat and drink and is washed and sanctified Mark I beseech you that S. Gregoryâ—ith not lib. 4. Dial. cap. 58. he giveth to his members in the participation of the sacrament his body and blood for meat and drink but the mystery of his body and blood as elsewhere he speaketh in Evang. Hom. 14. Realiter passus Christus iâ—cruce in mysterio patitur quoties ecclesia milâ—â—ns sacrâ—◠〈◊〉 celebrat hoc facit in servatoris sui comâ—â—morationem Christ having suffered really upon the crosse suffereth in a mystery as 〈◊〉 as the church celebrateth his holy supper and this she doth in remembrance of her Saviour By comparing of which places any man may perceive what S. Gregory meaneth by a mystery when he opposeth it to that which was done really I leave it to you to make the inference And now to poynt these weapons drawn out of S. Gregories armory and rub them over with the oyl of your eloquence the saith of S. Gregory was never noted to differ from the common received faith of christendom in those days as appeareth by the severall epistles of the said S. Gregory to the bishops of Europe Asia and Africa with all whom he had communion of faith so as if Christ had a catholike church on earth as needs he must S. Gregory was of it and being then a true church 〈◊〉 say holding still the same tenots it must needs be so now Gods truth being like unto him without change and therefore if an angel should câ—me from heaven to teach us any other doctrin then that which we have received from S. Gregory we are not to hear him If an angell therefore from heaven teach that the books of Maccabees are canonicall or that the Pope or any other bishop may have the stile of oecumenicall bishop or supream head over all bishops or that our best works are not imperfect or defective
opposed this idolatrous decree in the councell of Frankenford and synod of Paris together with Ionas bishop of Orleans and Charles the great and many in England who wrote against that blasphemous and idolatrizing synod were then the true church When by the strength of the same faction transubstantiation first stole in secretly and after was openly established by a decree in the councell of Laterane Scotus Erigena and Bertram Elfricus and Berengarius and their schollers in the Latin church which were in number like the sand of the sea were the true church When Hildebrand began to restrain the clergie by a law from marrying Nicetas the Abbat and the bishops of Italy France and Germany who withstood him they holding no fundamentall errors in any point of faith for ought can be shewed were the true church Lastly when the same faction prevailed so far in the councell of Constance as to decree the mutilation of the holy sacrament depriving the laity of the cup contrary to Christs institution and the practise of the primitive church Iohn Husse Ierom of Prague and the lords of Bohemia and the known remainder of the Waldenses besides many millions of christians both in the Greek and Latin church who oppugned and resisted openly or secretly that sacrilegious sanction many of them to the effusion of their blood were the true church whose followers iâ—â—â—hâ—mia and in France and elsewhere continued even till Lut hers time who was expected before he came and came not alone into the Lords battell as your Alfonsus a Castro testifieth in these words Noâ— prâ—diit solus Lutherus tanta est hujus seculi infoelicitâ—s sed multâ—… hareticorum agmine seu quodam satellitio stipatâ—â— processit qui illâ—… expectasse videntur ut sub illius vexille postea militâ—…t illi 〈◊〉 nomina dederunt Philipp Melancthonus Faber Capito Lambertus Conradus Pelicanus Andreas Osiander Martin Bucerus allique progessis temporis catervatim se illius faâ—iliae inseruerunt neither came Luther out alone such is the unhappinesse of this age but guarded with a great troop of hereticks who seemed to look for him that afterwards they might fight under his banner for presently Philip Melancâ—hon Faber Capito Lambert Conrade Pelicaâ— Andr. Osiander Martin Bucet gave their names unto him and others in processe of time in great numbers inserted themselvs into his familie PARAGRAPH XIV Of protestants in the age immediately before LUTHER CHALLENGE Or at least they must shew us who were the true professors of protestancy in the immediate age before Luther begâ—â— in what city town or country they dwelt and what writers speak of them which lived before our times Answer First I answer that we need not give any particular or punctuall answer to this your demand a question grounded upon a wrong supposall is sufficiently answered by overthrowing the ground now the ground of this question is this supposall that if there were any protestants before Luther there must needs be some authenticall and particular record of them producible by â—s at this day Protestants there might be then yet not now extant at least for 〈◊〉 to come by I pray how many millions not only of right beleevâ—… but hereticks also have been since Christs time who were never upon a particular record Were there not a kind of hereticks called Acephali because their head and first author could never be known Again how many records and writings especially of this nature have perished either by commands of authority or by casualty restore us the works of Wickliff which you burnt and many other authors whom you have either extinguished or of late by your Index Expurgatorius clipt their tongues or you keep close prisoners in the Vatican and this question of yours will soon be answered In the mean while as Petrus Molineus saith wittily you deal with us herein as if a thief who hath stoln away a mans purse and made away the mony should demand of the true man what is become of your money If you had any such sums of mony in what bag in what purse where are those bags and purses c If such a question as you make here had been put tothe prophet Elijah to wit who were those 7000. the oracle of God speaketh of who never bowed the knee to Baal In what city town or country dwelt they the prophet could not have satisfied at that time this demand for he thought himself to be there left alone the children of Israel saith he have forsaken thy covenant thrown down thine altars and slain thy prophets with the sword and I even I only am left and they seek my life to take it away If I should put the like question to you who were thosein the age immediately before Christ came in the flesh who sincerely expounded the law and gain-sayed the Scribes and Pharisees their corrupt glosses refuced by our Saviour Matth. 5. 21. in what city or town dwelt they What writers speak of them which lived before Christs time I know you would be to seek for answer When the woman in the Apocalyps fled into the wildernesse where she was fled one thousand two hundred and threescore days and the saints Heb. 11. wandred in wildernesses and lay in dens and caves of the earth can you tell me into what wildernesse she fled or they wandered In what caves and dens they lay Yet have many worthy champions of our faith met with you even in this field and come off with credit as Abbot against Hill Usher do succes ecclesiâ—… Fox acts and monuments Field of the church Humphrey his answer to Campiâ—n his third reason The author of Catalogâ—â— test veritatis Doctor White in his way Iohan. Munster in Vortleg nobilis discursus Ioachimi Camerarii histor. narratio de fratrum orthodoxorum ecclesia in Bohemia Moravia and Polonia Ioh. Lidii Waldensis The publisher of the history of the Waldenses in France for 400 years and more Nichol Vignier eccles. histor. Birkeck the protestants evidence Peruse AEneas Sylv. his story of the Bohemians fascic. rerum expetendaruÌ„ fugiendarum you â—hal find more for the continuance of our Church till Luthers time then ever you will be able to râ—â—ell Verily Rainerius the inquisitor though entcrtained against us yet speaketh so much for us that he deserveth a fee of us the sect saith he of the Waldenses or Lionists is more pernicious to the church of Rome then all other sects First because it hath been of longest continuance for some say it hath endured ever since the apostles time Secondly because it is more generall than any other for there is almost no country into which is doth not creep Thirdly for that all other sects do bring an horror with the hainousnesse of their blasphemies against God but this hath a great appearance of godlinesse because they live justly before men and beleeve all things well concerning God and all the articles