determination of the church ought not lightly to be altered 89 ¶ Churching of women 534. c. The cause of the womans absence from the church after hir dehuerance 535 ¶ Circumstances necessarie are commaunded 512 ¶ Circumcision a sacrament 618 Circumcision in priuate houses 515 ¶ Cypriā chooseth without consent of the people 205 Cyprian of the office of an Archbishop 354. c. 367. c. Cyprian a Metropolitane 356. 438. 470. ¶ Ciuil offices in Ministers 749. c. Ciuill offices in our Ministers tend to the gouernment of the church pag. 75 Ciuill authoritie not claimed but committed to our Bishops 752 Some Ciuill offices rather helpes than hinderances to Bishops 753 Augustine iudgeth ciuill causes pag. 772. Ciuil iurisdiction that the Pope claimeth not like to that in vse in this church 759. 778 A greater ciuill iurisdiction sought for in disprouing the lesse 760 Ciuil iurisdictiō in vse in this church is in some respect ecclesiasticall pag. 766. 771 Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall offices met in one 767. 771. Ciuil offices in ministers not against the word of God 773. The practise of the Church for ciuil offices in ministers 773. Ciuill businesse incident to Byshops by the iudgemente of the holye Ghost 772. 774. ¶ Clement 319. c. Clements Epistle read in the church pag. 719. ¶ Collect vpon Trinitie Sunday 491 Collect of the 12. Sunday after Trinitie Sunday 491. ¶ Coemiteria 250. ¶ Commaundementes of diuerse kindes 103. All the commaundementes of God and of the Apostles are not nedefull for our saluation 103. ¶ Cōmunitie in the Apostles times pag. 162. ¶ Comelinesse externall is alterable 98. The iudgement of comelinesse resteth not in priuate men 87. ¶ Communion Booke 474. c. Communion in priuate places 5 4. 525. Communion ministred to the sicke pag. 527. c Of the number of Communicantes pag. 528. c. Basill would haue 12. at the least to communicate 530. Of compelling men to communicate 531. 532. 605. Men not meete to cōmunicate may be admitted to the hearing of the word and prayer 533. The Apostles began the communion wyth the Lordes prayer 588. 602. Matters touching the Communion pag. 588. c. Examination of Communicantes pag. 591. c. Two things worthie to be noted of Communicantes 592. Examination of communicants not disallowed 593. Communion bread 593. c. Alexander appoynted vnleauened breed 594. Bucers opinion of Communion bread 594. Caluines opinion of Communion bread 594. Christ vsed vnleauened bread 595. The kinde of bread indifferent 595. Communion at mariages 724. Of shutting mē from the Communion 603. Men persisting in wickednesse are not to be compelled to the communion 605. Halfe communion 737. The makers of the Communion booke praised 711. ¶ Companions of Paule chosen by consent and why 163. ¶ Comparisons vnequall 710. ¶ Conferēce a cause of better know ledge 176. Conference offered to the Replyer hath bene by him refused 354. 7. ¶ Confirmation 725. c 785. 786. Abuse of confirmation in the Popishe Church 786. Confirmation of old time like ours pag. 786. Confirmation at the length allowed 794. The ende of confirmation 794. ¶ Confusion follovveth the doctrin of the Admonitors 3. 559. 746. ¶ Conscientia mille testes 503. ¶ Consuls and their authoritie 396. ¶ Constantine made Ecclesiasticall lawes 698 ¶ Contention defended 34. 377. Contentiō a hinderance to the profession of diuinitie 141. VVho be contentious 13. 14. ¶ Contraries may be defined wyth one difference 124 Some delighte to be contrarie to tymes 283. Men of contrarie iudgement ioy ne against the truth 51. Howe contraries muste be cured by contraries 476. ¶ Conuenticles 41. ¶ Corruption 485 Corruption in the Churche in the Apostles time 349. ¶ Councels summoned by princes page 436 Varietie about the time of the coūcell of Nice 330. The meaning of the. 6. Can. of the councell of Nice Controuersie about the number of Canons of the councell of Nyce page 334. The seconde councell of Nyce alleaged by the Replyer 247. A corrupt councell of Vrbane alleaged by the Replyer 23. A corrupt councell of Hispall alleaged by the Replyer 442. ¶ Courtes of Byshops 679. c. Court of faculties 561. Ecclesiasticall courtes executed in the Princes name 680. ¶ Crossing in Baptisme 614. c. Difference betwixt the papists crossing and ours 616. Crossing no Sacrament 617. ¶ Curates allowed 245. ¶ Cursed things consecrated to god page 284. D. ¶ Damasus alleaged to a wrong pur pose 248. Damasus added Gloria patri 489. ¶ Dayes obseruing of dayes 546. 547. 549. 〈◊〉 kindes of obseruing of Dayes 546 ¶ Deacons chosen by consent and vvhy 164 Of ministring preaching by Deacons 582. c Philip a Deacon baptised 582. 515 Deacons helpe in the ministration pag. 585 The Deaconship a step vnto the ministery 587 Deacons baptised 588. c. More pertayneth too the office of a Deacon than prouision for the poore 687. c. Some parte of the Deacons office not necessary vnder a Christian Prince 689. 690 VVhether Deacons were in euerye congregation 689 VVhy the Apostles left the Deaconship 758 ¶ Deanes 347. 746 ¶ Decrees pertayning too order not onely humane 107 ¶ Degrees of honour in the ministerie 458 Degrees in Diuinitie condemned 780. 781. Degrees in the Vniuersitie condemned 782 To take away Degrees is barbarousnesse 420 To be deliuered from euill what it signifieth 498 ¶ Demetrius bishop of Alexandria and Egypt 470 ¶ Defyling the nature of thinges is not in mans power 285 How farre the precepte in Deuteromie is extended 117 ¶ Digressions frō the matter to the persons 24. 235. 351. 370. 512. ¶ Dic Ecclesiae interpreted 636. 663 ¶ Dionisius Areopagita Archbishop of Athens 470. 324 Dionysius Ariopagite vsed of maister Ievvell agaynst Harding 608 Dionysius Alexandr Bishop of Alexandria and Pentapolis 470 Dionysius Corinthius b 719 Dionysius Corinth his epistles read in the Church 719 Dionysius deuided parishes 249. 250. ¶ Dioscorus Archbishop 338. 471. ¶ Discipline necessarie 559 Matters concerning Discipline 660 VVherein Discipline consisteth 661 The execution of Discipline not gyuen equally to all 313 ¶ Distinction quoad ministerium quoad ordinem iustified 390 Disobedience in ciuill matters is disobedience to God 282 Dissention domesticall the fo erunner of Destruction 705 ¶ Doctors of law left out of the Admonition and way 783 ¶ Doctrine framed to mens persons pag. 148 All pointes of Doctrine pure in this Church 129 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 interpreted 461 ¶ Dominion hath diuerse significations 63 Some kind of temporall Dominion denied to ministers 64 A minister maye exercise temporall Dominion 64. 65 ¶ Donatists and their properties 50. 622. ¶ A doubtfull saying 255 ¶ Drun kardes in the visible church pag. 177 E ¶ Easter obserued of the Apostles pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ King Edwardes priestes left 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ Elections act 1. act 6. agree 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not 〈◊〉 in the Apostles time 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not generall in
may be admitted into the ministerie except he haue a certayne flocke committed vnto him And that then it is not lawfull for him to preache out of his owne cure These questions woulde be answered and these contrarie spéeches of yours reconciled if it be possible For vndoubtedly they do not agrée with your former talke Of pluralities or hauing moe benefices than one Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision Admonition Then had euery flocke his shepheard or else y Act. 14. 23. shepheards Nowe they do not onely runne fisking from place to place a miserable disorder in Gods Church but z Esaie 5. 8. couetously ioyne liuing to liuing making shipwracke 1. Ti. 1. 14. of their owne consciences and beeing but one shephearde nay would to God they were shepheards and not wolues haue many flockes Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 50. Sect. 3. 4. Pag. 51. Sect. 1. You say also that euery flocke had his shephearde or else shepheards And to proue that one flocke had moe shepheards you cyte Act. 14. which maketh nothing for your purpose yet I deny not but one flocke maye haue moe Pastors for I see nothing in the worde of God agaynst it To be shorte you say nowe they go fisking from place to place and couetously ioyne liuing to liuing c. beeing but one shepheard haue many flockes If you meane by fisking from place to place such as preache in diuers places and not in their owne cures onely your phrase of fisking is to light and scurrilous When you alleadge any reason why men may not goe from place to place to preache where they thinke it necessarie you shall eyther be answered or yeelded to In the meane time I thinke it agreable bothe to Gods worde and conscience Agaynst couetously ioyning of liuing to liuing you alleage the. 5. of Esay which is farre from your purpose for the Prophet speaketh there of suche as oppresse the poore and will not suffer them to haue a place to dwell in yet I do not allowe suche as couetously ioyne liuing to liuing of what kinde or degree of men soeuer they be Io. Whitgifte To the abusing of the. 14. of the Acts by the Admonition nothing is answered by T. C. nor to the. 5. of Esay Chap. 2. the second Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 51. Sect. 1. But I see no cause why one good and diligent Pastor may not rather be credited with moe flockes than a slothfull vnskilfull or negligent with one You thinke I suppose that there be dyuers parishes in Englande which might be ioyned in one and so committed to one man and why may they not be so in like manner when they be distinct T. C. Pag. 50. Sect. 1. And heerevpon also is ended another question that the Answerer maketh whether one may haue many flockes which is whether one shepheard may be many shepheards one watcheman many watchemen For if his residence be necessarie in one place then he oughte to content hym selfe with one Io. Whitgifte My question is this why one man may not aswell haue diuers parishes when they be distinct as he may when they be ioyned togither for the compasse the number and the distance of place is all one you confesse Pa. 34. lin 10. that the one may be and the reformed Churches in Fraunce dyd so vse it where as I am credibly enformed and you before séeme to affirme sixe Townes or mo were committed to one Pastor This béeing lawfull I sée not why the other shoulde not be so in like maner neither haue you answered to any one worde in this parte Chapter 2. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 51. Sect. 2. I speake not this to encourage any man to take more vpon him than with a good conscience he may well discharge And I woulde wishe you to absteyne from iudging too farre when you see a man that hath mo liuings vse himselfe vprightly and carefully in them all and otherwyse profitably to the whole Churche T. C. Pag. 50. Sect. 2. And whereas you would haue men charitably iudge of those whiche take many liuinges ▪ surely if so be that he taketh many flockes not to the intent to haue more liuing to maynteyne an ambicious pompe or to satisfie a greedie desire of hauing more than inoughe but to this ende that he may bring in a more plentifull haruest vnto the Lorde it were good that he would be content to take but that liuing of all his flockes which he nowe hath of one especially where one is able to keepe and maynteyne him and his familie honestly Else let him heare what (*) you mighte haue spoken in the singular num ber for any pl ralitie you 〈◊〉 vsed Councels others haue thought of those which haue more benefices than one Io. Whitgifte You kéepe no order in answering my booke but place and displace at your pleasure onely to this ende as it should séeme that you would not haue your Reader perceyue what you omitted vnanswered But I will followe you and examine what Councels and other haue thought of suche as haue more benefites than one for in this portion you vtter but words and take vpon you to iudge mens intents and purposes and to prescribe them their stipende Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 50. Sect. 3. In the. 15. Canon of the Councell of (a) T. C. vseth most corrupte Councell for his defense Nice it is commaunded that no clearke should be placed in two Churches and he addeth the reasons wherof the first is that it is a poynt of marchaundise Mat. 6. and of filthy gayne The seconde that * no man can serue two masters The thirde 1. Cor. 7. that euery one ought to * tarrie in that calling wherin he is called Io. Whitgifte T. C. alleageth the secōd Councell of Nice to dete mine controuersies It should séeme that you woulde gladly make men beléeue and it is very like that you your selfe are also persuaded that this Councel was the first Councel of Nice For else why doe you in the nexte section place Damasus and name the second tome of the Councels when as Damasus was long time before this your Councell of Nice and the same Councell is in the seconde tome of the Councels Least therefore the Reader may be deceyued I let him to vnderstand that this Canon héere by you alleaged is a Canon of the seconde Councell of Nice holden about Anno. 795. or 781. and one of the corruptest Councels that euer was wherein not onely praying to Saincts adoring of Reliques but also worshipping of Images c. was confirmed But yet let vs examine this Canon of that Councell In the ende of that same The Canon of the seconde Councell of Nice examined Canon it is thus written Et haec quidem in hac regia ciuitate in his autem quae extra sunt locis propter hominum inopiam permi titur And these things are to
be obserued c. And M. Foxe tom 1. Pag. 12. reporting these two Canons sayth thus First in the Councell of M. Foxe Nice which was the yeare of our Lorde 340. and in the sixt Canon of the sayde Councell we finde it is so decreed that in euery Prouince or Precinct some one Church Byshop of the same was appoynted set vp to haue the inspection regiment of other Churches about him Secundum morem antiquum that is after the auncient custome as the wordes of the Councell do purport So that the Byshop of Alexandria shoulde haue power of Libia and Pentapolis in Egipt for as much as the Byshop of the Citie of Rome hath the like or same manner Nowe if I might as safely alleage the Canons of the Apostles as you doe then coulde I tell you that in the. 33. Canon which Canon is alleaged as good authoritie against the supremacie of the Byshop of Rome you shall finde Archbyshops For that Canon setting an order among Bishops willeth the Byshops of euery nation to knowe their first or chiefe Byshop and him to be taken for the head of them The wordes of the Canon be these Cuiusque gentis Episcopos oportet sc re quisnam Cano. Apo. 33. alias 35. inter ipsos primus sit habereque ipsum quodammodo pro capite neque sine illius voluntate quicquam agere insolitum The Bishops of euery countrie must knowe who is chiefe among them and must take him as it were for their head neyther muste they doe any vnaccustomed thing without his will and euery one must doe those things alone by him selfe which belong to his parishe and to the places that be vnder him But neither must he do any thing without the will of all them for so shall concorde be kept and God shall be glorified through our Lord in the holy Ghost Now I pray you tell me what difference there is betwixt the first or chiefe Byshop or head of the reste and Archbyshop And least you shoulde thinke this Canon to be of small force as suspected you shall heare it almost verbatim repeated and confirmed by the Councell of Antioche In euery countrey it is conuenient that Concil Antioc Can. 9. the Byshops should knowe that their Metropolitane Byshop beareth the care of the whole Prouince VVherefore let all those that haue any businesse repaire to the Metropolitane citie And for this cause it is thought good that he both shoulde excell in honour and that the other Bishops do no vnaccustomed thing without him according to the auncient rule appointed of our fathers sauing those things onely which belong to their owne Diocesse and to the places that are vnder them For euery Byshop hath power ouer his owne parishe to rule them according to reuerence meete for euerye one and to prouide for all the countrey that are vnder his citie so that he ordeyne both Priests and Deacons and conteine all things with his iudgement But further let him attempt nothing without the Metropolitane neither let the Metropolitane do any thing without the aduise of the other You haue now the Canon of the Apostles confirming Archbyshops and the Councell of Nyce Antioche alleaging olde custome for them and confirming them also And a little before In the. 7. Diuision before I declared vnto you out of M. Foxe that there were Archbyshops here in England Anno. 180. So that their fall cannot be very great Chap. 2. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3. What no mention of him in Theophilus Bishop of Antioche none in Ignatius none in Clemens Alexandrinus none in Iustine Martyr in Ireneus in Tertullian in Origine in Cyprian none in all those olde Historiographers oute of the which Eusebius gathereth his storie was it for his basenesse and smalnesse that he coulde not be seene among the Byshops Elders and Deacons beyng the chiefe and principall of them all Can the Cedar of Libanon be hyd among y e Boxe trees Aristotle in his Rhethoricke ad Theodecten sayth that it is a token of contempt to forget the name of an other Belike therefore if there were any Archbyshop he had no chaire in the Churche but was as it seemeth digging at the metalles for otherwyse they that haue filled their booke with the often mentioning of Byshops would haue no doubt remembred him Io. Whitgifte And what then is not the Councell of Nice and of Antioche of as good credite as all these Shall not Athanasius Epiphanius Ambrose Hierome Chrysostome Sozomene c. counteruaile them and yet if you had read these authors you might haue learned that in the most of them the office of an Archbyshop is expressed as my answere following declareth But still you vse negatiue reasons ab authoritate and that humane Your tauntes and frumpes I let passe they are confutation sufficient to them selues Chap. 2. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Page 70. Sect. 3. 4. But let vs heare what the Councell of Nyce hath for these titles In the sixth Canon mention is made of a Metropolitane Byshop what is that to the Metropolitane which nowe is eyther to the name or to the office Of the office it shall appeare afterwardes In the name I thinke there is a great difference betwene a Metropolitane Byshop and Metropolitane of England or of all England A Metropolitane Byshop was nothing else but a Byshop of that place which it pleased the Emperor or Magistrate to make the chiefe citie of the Diocesse or shire aad as for this name (*) An vntruth contrarie to the manifest wordes of the Councell of Nice it maketh no more difference betwene Byshop and Byshop than when I say a Minister of London and a Minister of Nuington There is no man that is well aduised which will gather of this saying that there is as great difference in preheminence betwene those two Ministers as is betwene London and Nuington For his office and preheminence we shall see hereafter Io. Whitgifte For the full answering of this it shall be sufficient to set downe the iudgement of certaine of the learned writers of our time touching the true meaning of that Canon The iudgement of learned writers of the. 6. can con N cem Caluine of the Councell of Nyce as the practise of the Church before that time at that tyme and since that time haue expounded it M. Caluine in his Institutions Chap. 8. Sect 54. sayth thus That euery prouince had among their Byshops an Archbyshop And that the Councel of Nice did appoynt Patriarkes which should be in order and dignitie aboue Archbyshops it was for the preseruation of discipline M. Caluine sayth the Councell of Nyce did appoint Patriarkes which shoulde be in order and dignitie aboue Archbyshops He sayth also that euery Prouince had among their Byshops an Archbyshop Il yricus in his cataloge testium veritatis speaking of this Councel sayth thus Constituit Illyricus quoque haec Synodus vt singularum
may verie wel sayle in their ships Chap. 2. the. 27. Diuision T. C. Pag. 72. Sect. 1. I can not tel whether you would abuse your reader here with the fallation of the accent bycause this worde great is so placed betwene Basile and Metropolitane that it may be as well referred to the Metropolitane as to Basill and so you hauing put no comma it seemeth you had as lieue haue your reader reade great Metropolitane as great Basil. But that the simpler sort be not deceyued therby it is not out of the way to let the reader vnderstande what a great Metropolitane this was whiche appeareth for that when he was threatned by the magistrate confiscation of his Sozom. 6. l. e. 16. goods answered that he was not afrayde of the threatnings and that all his goodes were a very fewe bookes and an olde gowne suche were then those Metropolitanes vnder whose shadowes M. Doctor goeth about to shroude all this pompe and princely magnificence of Archbishops Io. Whitgifte You search verie narowly when you misse not a comma but you knowe what nugator signifieth All men of learning can tell that Basile is in common speach called Basile the great And yet if he were called great Metropolitan the title might verie well agrée vnto him for he had large and ample iurisdiction being bishoppe of Cappadocia as Athanasius dothe also witnesse in his Epistle written to Palladius The contention is for the name and the office not for the ryches al houghe I thynke that there both are and haue bene Bishops in Englande as poore as Basile if they had en taken so soone after they were placed in theyr bishoprikes as Basile was nowe at this tyme. Chap. 2. the. 28. Diuision T. C. Pag. 72. Sect 2. 3. 4. As for Symeon Archbishop of Sele cia I will not denie but at that time was the name of Archbishops For then (*) An vnaduised answer Satan had made thorough the titles of Archbishops Pr ates and Patriarches as it were three staires wherby Antichrist might clyme vp into his cursed seate notwithstanding there wanted not good decrees of godlie councelles which did strike at these proude names and went aboute to keepe them downe But the swelling waters of the ambition of dyuers coulde not by any bankes be kept in which hauing once broken out in certaine places afterwardes couered almost the face of the whole earth This deuour of godly men may appeare in the Councell of Carthage which decreed that the Con. Car cap. 39. bishop of the fyrst seat shold not be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is eyther the chiefe of the priestes or the hyghe priest or any suche thing by whiche woordes any such thing he shutteth out the name of Archbishop and all such hau e titles The same decree also was made in the Africane councell and if you saye that it was made against Con. tom 1 cap. 6. the Pope of Rome or to forbidde that any man should be called Archbishoppe shewe me where ther was eyther bishop of Rome or any other that euer made any such title or chal nge to be the generall Bishop of all at that tyme when this councell of Carthage was holden when as the first of those which did make any su h chalenge was the bishop of Constantinople which notwithstanding (a) An vntruth chalenged not the preheminence first ouer all but that he might ordeyne bishops of Asia Pontus Thracia whiche were before appointed by theyr Synodes and this was in the councell of Chalcedon which was long after that councell of Carthage before remembred Io. Whitgifte It is before sufficiently declared that these names and offices were allowed and confirmed by the Councell of Nice and therefore not brought in by Satan Moreouer this Symeon Archbishop of Seleucia liued as it may appeare by most Chronicles aboute the tyme of the Councell of Nice and was martyred by Sapores the king of Persia. Which peraduenture if you had vnderstoode you woulde not haue burste oute into this heate of woordes for then might you haue made the same answere to Ambrose his authoritie which was long after him so kept secret your owne fond deuise The Councell of Carthage and also of Affrike was at that tyme wherein the Bishop of Rome by his Legates didde clayme the right of hearyng of appeales from whome soeuer they were made and for his purpose alleaged a counterfait Canon of the Councell of Nice Wherefore it is moste certayne that then th Bishop of Rome beganne at the leaste to clayme the super oritie ouer all Churches and to take vpon hym as it were the name of vniuersall Byshoppe and therfore this canon is made against him And that thys is true the Epistle of the Councell of Affrike written to Celestinus then Bishoppe of Rome declareth For after that they haue esyred hym that he woulde admit no suche appeales nor absolue such as they should excominunicate bycause that was to doe agaynst the decrées of the Councell of Nice and to abridge them of their iurisdiction and libertie they adde and saye Both bicause this priuiledge hath bin taken from the Church of Aphrike by no constitution of the fathers and also the decrees of the councell of Nice hath committed bothe the inferiour Clearkes and the Bishops themselues vnto their Metropolitanes for it was discretely and rightly consydered that all matters are to bee determined in the places where they began and that no prouince can lacke the grace of the holie ghost wherby the prieste of Christe may be hable both wisely to see and also constantly to mainteyn the right especially for that it is lawfull for euery man that shall mislike the discretion of the iudges to appeale either to particular councels within the same prouince or else to an vniuersal councell vnlesse perchaunce some man will thinke that God is able to inspire the triall of iustice into one man alone and will not inspire the same into a greate number of priests meeting togyther in Councell And how may such beyond sea iudgemente be thoughte good wherevnto the persons of the witnesses which in triall of truth are thought necessary either for that they be women or for the infirmitie of their age or for many other incident letts cannot be brought Now that any should be sent abroade as it were from your holinesse side we find it not decreed in any Councell And a little after And send you not any your Clerks hither to execute iustice at any mans request least we seeme to bring the smokie puffe of the world into the Church of Christ. c. Whereby it is plaine that they only prohibite that title of vniuersalitie and of generall iurisdiction that the Byshop of Rome now claymed and at that time began to claime ouer all Churches and not the names of superioritie due vnto any in their owne prouince For that perogatiue of iurisdiction ouer Byshops and other ministers they acknowledge to be due to
of one man ouer sundry Churches yea ouer many shyres Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 116. Sect. 1. 2. I haue proued before in my answere to your 13. 14. reason that this lordship of one man as you terme it but in deede lawfull iurisdiction ouer sundry churches was not the inuentiō of any Pope but of great antiquitie in the church of Christ allowed by that famous Councell of Nice practised since of most godly and learned fathers In the. 9. Canon Concil Antioch it is thus written Per singulas regiones Episcopos conuenit nosse Metropolitanum Episcopum solicitudinem totius prouinciae gerere propter quod ad Metropolim omnes vndique qui negotia videntur habere concurrant vndè placuit um bonore praecellere nibil amplius praeter eum caeteros Episcopos agere secundùm antiquam à patribus nostris regulam constitutam nisi ea tantùm quae ad suam Dioecesim pertinent c. It behoueth the Bishops in euery countrie to knovve their Metropolitane Bishop to haue care ouer the vvhole prouince and therfore all such as haue any businesse muste come to theyr Metropolitane Citie vvherefore it pleaseth this Councell that he also excell in honour and that the other Bishops do nothing vvithout him according to the auncient rule prescribed by our forefathers but those things onely vvhich perteyne to his ovvne diocesse c. This Councell was about the yeare of our Lord. 345. T. C. Pag. 99. Sect. 4. 5. In the. 116. page for the authoritie of the Archbishop is alleaged the. 9. Canon of the councell of Antioche which I haue before alleaged to proue how farre different the authoritie of the Metropolitane in those tymes was from that which is now For there the Coūcel sheweth that euery Bishop in his diocesse hath the ordering of all the matters within the circuite thereof therefore the meaning of the Councell to be that if there be any affayres that touch the whole Church in any lande that the Bishops should do nothing without making the Metropolitane priuie as also the Metropolitane might do nothing without making the other Bishops a Counsell of that which he attempted which M. Doctor doth cleane leaue out And if this authoritie which the Councell giueth to the Metropolitane being nothing so excessiue as the authoritie of our Metropolitanes now had not bene ouer much or had bene iustifiable what needed men father this Canon which was ordeyned in this Councell of the Apostles for the seeking falsely of the name of the Apostles to giue credite vnto this Canon doth carie with it a note of euill and of shame which they would haue couered as it were with the garment of the Apostles authoritie Io. Whitgifte There is no Canon that maketh more directly against you than this doth all the shifts that you haue to auoyde it I haue answered before There is as great authoritie giuen to the Metropolitane in that Canon as now he eyther vseth or requireth For euery Bishop obseruing the lawes of the realme and of the Church hath the ordering of al matters within his diocesse and the Metropolitane in this Church may attempt no newe thing or any matter of great importance not already by lawe established though he haue the consent of all the Bishops so farre is he from hauing authoritie to do any such thing without theyr consent That Canon of the Apostles is repeated confirmed in this Councell as diuerse Canons of the Councell of Nice are in like maner repeated and confirmed by diuerse Councels following This is so farre from discrediting that Canon with wise men that it rather addeth great authoritie vnto it but you kéepe your olde wonte in discrediting the authoritie which you cannot answere Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision Admonition Now then if you will restore the Church to his auncient officers this you must do In stead of an Archbishop or Lorde byshop you must make (x) 2. Cor. 1 7. Colos. 1. 1. equalitie of ministers Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 123. I haue proued before that aswell the name as office of an Archbishop is both most auncient and also most necessarie in the Church of Christ that this equalitie of ministers which you require is both flatly against the scriptures al auncient authoritie of councels and learned men the example of all Churches euen frō Christes time as more plainly appeareth by these wordes of M. Bucer in his booke De egno Christi Iam ex perpetua Ecclesiarum obseruatione ab ipsis iam Apostolis videmus visum ucer hoc esse spiritui sancto vt inter Presbyteros quibus Ecclesiarum procuratio potissimùm est commissa vnus Ecclesiarum totius sacri ministerij curam gerat singularem eaque cura solicitudine cunctis praeeat alijs Qua de causa Episcopi nomen huiusmodi summis Ecclesiarum curatoribus est peculiariter attributum c. Novve vve see by the perpetuall obseruation of the Churches euen from the Apostles themselues that it hath pleased the holy ghost that amongst the ministers to vvhom the gouernment of the Church especially is cōmitted one should haue the chiefe care both of the Churches and of the vvhole ministerie and that he should go before all other in that care and diligence for the vvhich cause the name of a Bishop is peculiarly giuen to such chiefe gouernours of Churches c. Furthermore I haue declared that it engendreth schismes factions contentions in the Churche and bringeth in a meere confusion and is a branche of Anabaptisme T. C. Pag. 99. Sect. 6. 7. nd in the 〈◊〉 twētie three page to that which M. Bucer sayth y t in the Churches there hath bene one which hath bene 〈◊〉 ouer the rest of the Ministers if he meane one chiefe in euery particular Church 〈◊〉 one chiefe ouer the Ministers of diuerse Churches meeting at one Synode and 〈◊〉 for the 〈◊〉 and for suche respectes as I haue before shewed then I am of that mynde which he is and if he meane any other chiefe or after any other sorte I denie that any such chiefe was from the Apostles times or that any such 〈◊〉 pleaseth the holy Ghost wherof I haue before shewed the 〈◊〉 And whereas M. Bucer seenieth to allowe that the name of a Bishop whiche the holy Ghost expressely gyueth to all the Ministers of the worde indifferently was appropriated to certayne chiefe gouernors of the Church I haue before shewed by diuerse reasons howe that was not done without great presumption and manifest daunger and in the ende great hurt to the Church Io. Whitgifte M. Bucers wordes are plaine there is no cause why you shoulde make such I s but onely that you may be thought able to say some thing howe contrary to truth and reason soeuer it be Your owne bare deniall of M. Bucers iudgement will weigh little with any wyse or learned man considering what difference there is betwixte your knowledge and his the triall
commaunde them Pag. 186. 10 He sayth that those which write the Centuries suspect the Cannon of the Councell of Laodicea which forbiddeth the electiō of ministers to be committed to the people and doubt whether it bea Bastarde or no whiche is vntrue for the Authours of the Centuryes make no such doubt Pag. 188. 11 He sayth that Hierome willeth that the people should haue power and authoritie to choose their clearks their ministers which is not so for Hierom willeth no such thing Pag. 203. 12 He alledgeth Musculus his wordes in stead of Ieromes and that which onely Muscu sayth in his cōmon places he ascribeth to Ierom in his epist. to Nepotian ead 13 He sayth that Nazian in an oration that he wryteth at the death of his father confuteth those reasons that seeme to hinder the election of Ministers by the Church and yet is there no such thing to be founde in that oration Pag. 205. 14 He referreth the Reader to the. 6. and. 7. booke of Eusebius for examples of elections of the people Clergie confirmed by the Christian magistrate namely in the Bishop of Constantinople and yet is there no such examples in those bookes neyther any mention of any Bishop of Constantinople Pag. 207. 15 He fathereth a manifest vntruth vpon Eusebius lib. 6. touching Origens admission into the ministerie Pag. 209. 16 He leaueth out the wordes of the Councell of Chalcedon that open the meaning of the Councell Pag. 222. 17 He againe ascribeth Musculus his wordes to Ierome Pag. ead 18 He denyeth that Chrysostome maketh a distinction betwixt Bishops and Elders when as his wordes be plaine Pag. 226. 19 He doth vntruely and corruptly alledge Theodorete Pag. 268. 20 He sayth Pag. 280. that the two treatises called the Admonition were written by diuerse persons the one not knowing the others doings the contrarie whereof is manifestly declared 21 He citeth Nicephorus corruptly Pag. 326. 22 He falsifyeth a place in the first of Iohn by a false interpretation to make it serue his turne Pag. 302. 23 He sayth that the Centuries alledge a place of Ambrose out of his booke de dignitate sacerdotali to proue that the office of an Archbishop was not then come into the Church Which is vntrue for the Centuries alledge no suche place out of Ambrose for any such purpose Pag. 337. 24 He sayth that Hierome and Augustine speake of Archdeacons in those places where they onely speake of Deacons Pag. 346. 25 The wordes of Socrates are falsified Pag. 350. 26 He vntruly reporteth the wordes of Cyprian Pag. 257. 27 He falsifieth the meaning of Tertullian alluding that to Ceremonies that Tertullian meaneth of matters of fayth and of saluation Pag. 370. 28 He kéepeth back the wordes of Theodoret that explane his meaning Pag. 412. 29 An vntruth concerning Iereneus auouched out of the fifth booke of Eusebius Cap. 3. 4. Pag. eadem 30 He peruerteth the wordes of the Gréeke scholiast Pag. 413. 31 He auoucheth an vntruth of Theodoret. Pag. 415. 32 He vttereth a verie vncharitable vntruth of the worthie man M. Iewel Bishop of Sarisburie Pag 422. 33 He sayth that in the Councell of Antioch it appeareth that the Bishop of the Metropolitane seate called Synodes and propounded the matters which were to be handled and that it was his office to see that the Bishops kept themselues within their owne Diocesse and he quoteth the. 9. Canon where no such thing is to be founde Pag. 435. 34 He both addeth and detracteth from the. 34. Canon attributed to the Apostles Page 439. 35 The. 17. Canon of the Councell of Antioche is vntruely alleadged Page 440. 36 He should saye an Epistle of Pope Zachary to Boniface and he sayth an Epistle of Zachary to Pope Boniface In the whiche Epistle he saythe that this cause scil Least they shoulde wax vile through the multitude is alleaged why there should not be a Bishop in euery village or little citie which is vntrue for there is no such cause alleaged there 443. 37 He alleadgeth the fift Canō Concilij Tyronnes for that that cannot be found in it Pag 446. 38 He saythe that another councell quoting the Councell of Afrike decreed that the Christians shoulde not celebrate feastes on the birth dayes of Martyrs because it was the manner of the heathen which is a manifest vntruth for there is no such decrée in that councell 479. 39 He sayth That Tertuliian would not haue the Christians to syt after they had prayed because the Idolaters did so and he quoteth his booke de anima where there is no such thing written Page ead 40 He fathereth an vntruth of Augustine touching Baptizing by women or in priuate houses Page 522. 41 He alleageth M. Beza in his annotations for that which cannot be founde in thē Pag. 584. 42 He saith that if we will take the nature of the sacrament so straightly as Augustine doth that there be no sacramentes but when as to the element there commeth the worde the circumcision can be no Sacramen which is a grosse vntruth for in circumcision there is both the word and the element Page 〈◊〉 43 He saith that the eldership was most flourishing in Constantines time but he noteth 〈◊〉 place where we may finde his saying to be true Page 651. 44 He is greatly deceiued about the excommunicating of Apollinaris and sheweth manifest tokens that either he hath not himselfe read the story or that he hath read it very negligently as it is plainely declared in the Defense Page 669. 45 He falsifieth Ambrose Page 670. 46 He alleageth a place of Tertullian very deceitfully Page 673. 47 He saith that Augustine in his bookes de Bap. contra Donatistas 〈◊〉 that if the most of the people be in ected with the fault which is to be punished that then no excommunication ought to be attempted for because 〈◊〉 sufficient number of voyces will not be obteined for the excōmunication whereas these wordes for because a sufficient number of voyces c. are not to be founde in these bookes of Augustine Page 675. 48 He maketh an vntrue report of the. 10. Canon of the Councell of Anti h. Page 682. 49 He alleageth that for making Ecclesiastical lawes and ceremonies which is ment of building and repayring of Churches out of Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Constant. Epist. ad Eusebium Page 698. 50 He affirmeth that this practise continued still in the Churches of God scil that nothing was broughte into the Church to be read besides the word of God whereas the contrarie is manifestly proued of the same time whereof he meaneth Page 718. 51 He saith that S. Iohn in the Apocalips reprehending the ministers of diuers Churches dyd not put to his name vnto his booke whiche is a manifest vntruth for he addeth his name both in the beginning and in the end thrise in the first chapter and once in the last I here omit his manifest wresting of the Scriptures his wrong collections bolde assertions contrarie
question I omit that whyche he speaketh of this matter in his booke de sancto spiritu Idem where althoughe he gyueth too muche authoritie to vnwritten traditions yet dothe it there appeare that many thyngs were then vsed in the Church of Christ whyche were not expressed in the worde of God I myghte here alleage Socrates who Socrates in his sifte Booke and. 22. Chapter of hys ecclesiasticall historie handleth this matter at large and speakyng of Easter he saythe The Apostle and the Gospell doe in no place laye a bonde of seruitude vpon them whyche come to the preaching But men them selues haue euery one according as they thoughte meete in theyr countryes celebrated of custome the feast of Easter and other feastes for the resting from laboure and the remembrance of the healthfull passion c. and in the same Chapter No Religion obserueth the same rytes althoughe it embrace the same doctrine of them for they doe differ among themselues in rytes whiche are of the same fayth And so he procéedeth in declaryng the varietie of Ceremonyes and other obseruances and rytes in the Churches whereby it is manyfest that by hys Indgement many things are committed to the disposition of the Churche whyche are not expressed in the worde of God And that the Churche hathe vsed thys libertie from tyme to tyme to the same effecte speaketh Sozome Lib. 7. Cap. 19. They he meaneth Policarpus and Victor thought Sozome it follye and not wythoute cause to be separated one from another for Ceremonyes or Customes whyche dyd agree in the principall poyntes of Religion for you can not fynde the same rytes and altogether lyke in all Churches no thoughe they doe agree together I myghte pester thys Booke and that you knowe well enoughe wyth the iudgement of all the auncient Fathers that haue any occasion to speake of this matter but these maye suffice to declare that I haue not vainely vsed their names for mutes on the stage Touchyng Councels I maruayle you wyll make any doubte of them whervnto Councels of things indifferent tende the moste of theyr Canons in matters of Ceremonyes and gouernmente of the Churche but to teache that the Scriptures haue not expressed all thyngs concernyng the same bnt lefte them to the order and appoyntment of the Churche I praye you where shall you fynde in the Scripture the. 13. Canon Ancyrani Conci de vicarijs Episcoporum eorum potestate or the. 15. non debere pr sbyteros Ancyranum ecclesiastica iura vendere and diuerse others in the same Councell or the. 11. Canon Concil Nencaes Nicaenum Neocaesari of the certayne age of hym that ought to be minister or the. 1. Canon Concil Nicaeni of Enuches the fourth of ordering Byshoppes the sixte of Metropolitans the seuenth of the Byshop of Ierusalem the twentith of standyng in the tyme of Prayer or the. 7. Canon Concil Gangren or the. 18. or 20. or y e. 11. 15. 18. 19. c. Concil Arelatens Gangrense Arelatens But what shoulde I trouble the reader wyth suche particular rehearsals of so manye Councels whiche haue made suche a number of Canons concernyng suche matters as muste be ordered in the Churche whereof the Scripture hath particularly determyned nothyng is it not therefore manyfest that Councels both generall and prouinciall by their actes declare that touchyng Cer monyes discipline and gouernment of the Churche many things are lefte to the discretion of the Church whiche be not expressed in the Scriptures And whereas you charge me for not alleaging of Scriptures if I woulde Scriptures of things indifferent wythoute discretion cyte places nothyng pertayning to the purpose as you hytherto haue done I coulde vse a number but I had rather haue one texte to my purpose than a hundred wroong and wrested as yours be Howebeit there is no cause why you shoulde as yet complayne for hitherto I haue alleaged moe than you haue answered To the. 1. Cor. 14. as yet vnanswered I maye ioyne that which the 1. Cor. 14. 1. Cor. 11. 2. Apostle sayth 1. Cor. 11. Quemadmodùm tradidi vobis instituta tenetis You keepe the ordinances as I delyuered them to you The whych wordes Maister Caluine expoundyng sayth on thys sorte I doe not denye but that there were some traditions of the Apostles Caluine not written but I doe not graunt them to haue beene taken as partes of doctrine or necessarie vnto saluation VVhat then euen suche as dyd pertayne to order and pollicie For vve knovve that euerie Churche hathe libertie to ordayne and appoint suche a forme of gouernment as is apte and profitable for it bycause the Lorde therein hath prescribed no certainetie So Paule the firste founder of the Church of Corinthe dyd also frame it wyth honest and godly institutions that all things might there be done decently ▪ and in order And that also which is in the end of the Chapter Other things wyll I set in order when I come Wherevpon the same Maister 1. Cor. 11. 34. Caluine Caluine sayth But let suche toyes passe seyng that it is certaine that Paule speaketh but of externall comelynesse the vvhiche as it is put in the libertie of the Churche so it is to be appoynted accordyng to the tyme places and persons In déede I glory not in wordes so muche of the Scriptures as yeu d ee but I truste that I haue as sure grounde there for anye thyng that I haue affyrmed as you haue and muche more else woulde I be sorye It is not beasting of the Scriptures in wordes and falsely applying of them that can cary away the matter with those that be learned and wyse you knowe what Maister Caluine saythe of the Anabaptists in hys Booke written against them Quià verò nulla specie illustriore seduci possunt miseri Caluin aduersus Anabap. Why the Anabaptists alwayes pretended the worde of God Christiani c. But bicause the wofull Christians whiche with a zeale doe followe God can not by any other more notable shewe be seduced than when the worde of God is pretended the Anabaptistes agaynst whome we write haue that euermore in their mouthe and alwayes talke of it And yet in lawfull matters not expressed in the Scriptures I knowe not to whome we shoulde resorte to knowe the vse and antiquitie of them but to the Councels stories and doctors The opinion of S. Augustine of things indifferent Chap. 3. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 23. Sect. 1. That notable learned Father Augustine hathe diuerse sayings Augustin touchyng thys matter worthy to be noted In his Epistle ad Casulanum 86. he sayth thus In his rebus de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta maiorum pro lege tenenda sunt in those thyngs vvherein the holy Scripture hathe determined no certainetie the custome of the people of God the traditions or decrees of our forefathers are
be vnderstanded in this regall Citie for in those places that be without it is permitted for the scarsi ie of persons Wherby it is playne that the meaning of the Canon is that no one man should haue committed vnto him mo great cities than one but that he might haue mo townes or villages committed to his charge it is manyfest by those words of that Canon that I haue rehearsed And therefore Gratian himselfe dothe thus expounde that Canon Sed duae ecclesiae intellig untur ecclesiae duarū ciuitatū in quibus nullus debet conscribi But by two Caus. 21. q. 1. Clericus churches are ment the churches of two cities wherin no man ought to be appoynted And for the proofe thereof he alleageth this Canon of the Councel of Calcedon Clericū in duarum ecclesijs ciuitatū conscribi non oportet A Clearke may not be appoynted in the Churches of two cities And the Glosse vpon that place sayth that one man may be intituled in two Churches if the Churches be poore or if the Bishop doe dispense and thinke it conuenient or if the number of Clearkes be fewe or if he be intituled to the one and haue the other in commendā or if the one be neere to the other And the authoritie of this Glosse is as sufficient as the credite of that Councell of Nice if the Canon did not expounde it selfe I omit the absurde allegation of the Striptures to confirme this their purpose For the place Mat. 6. is to be vnderstanded of contrarie masters and that in the. 1. Cor. 7. of the kinde of vocation and not of the place He that dothe his duetie in mo places is lawfully called to them all as I haue sayde before Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 50. Sect. 4. And in the (*) An ouersight for it is in the first Tome seconde tome of the Councels Damasus in his fourth Epistle likeneth those that set ouer their charges vnto other vnto harlots which assone as they haue brought foorth their children by and by giue them to be nourished of others to the intent that they might the sooner fulfill their inordinate lustes Io. Whitgifte You are deceyued it is in the first tome of Councels and therefore the more like it is that you take the former Councel to be the first Councel of Nice But such dealing is vsuall with you if you had ment playnely you would haue sayd the seconde Councell of Nice and not simply the Councell of Nice whiche argueth either that you were deceyued your selfe or else sought to deceyue others This place of Damasus is nothing at all to your purpose which you might easily Damasus alleaged to a wrong purpose haue perceyued if you had red that Epistle For he onely there speaketh agaynst suche as were called Chorepiscopi who were in degrée inferiour to Bishops and yet did they despise to be counted no better than Priests There were certayne Bishops in Damasus time that gaue them selues wholly to idlenesse and pleasure and cōmitted their office to suche as were called Chorepiscopi as it is euident in that Epistle neyther dothe he meane any other charge than consecrating of Priests Deacons and virgins imposition of hands blessings erecting of aulters dedicating of Churches and suche like whiche were taken properly to perteyne to the Bishop and yet notwithstanding was by some Bishops passed ouer to such Chorepiscopi This negligence of bishops in such matters Damasus cōdēneth togither with y e office of Chorepiscopus And this is the whole drifte of Damasus in that Epistle as it is most euident And therefore sayth Leo as Gratian reporteth Dist. 68. Hi meaning chorepiscopi propter Distinct. 68. insolentiam suam qua officia episcoporum sibi vsurpant ab ecclesia prohibiti sunt These men for their insolencie wherby they vsurpe the offices of Bishops are excluded from the Church So that héere is not one worde in this whole Epistle agaynst Curates and suche as Pag. 50. lin ▪ are lefte to supplie the Pastors absence Moreouer you your selfe in the beginning of this page confesse that a man béeing absent may leaue his Deputie in his place But yet heere you haue forgotten your purpose that is to proue that one man may not haue moe benefices in whiche cause also it appeareth that you are destitute of proofes béeing compelled to vse onely corrupt authorities Chap. 2. the sixte Diuision T. C. Pag. 50. Sect. 5. Whether it were better that one diligent Pastor should haue many flockes than a negligent and vnskilfull Pastor one is not the question for we say neyther is lawfull nor ought to be done Io. Whitgifte You say muche but proue little I thinke it muche better that one man haue dyuers than that any should be vntaught For I speake of that time wherein there is not a competent number of preachers to be had for all places It passeth to sée howe you haue dismembred my booke euen of purpose to auoyde the answering of diuers things and euen very héere you haue omitted one principal poynt For I aske also this question why that Parishes beeing distincte may not aswell be committed to one man as the same mighte be if they were made all one as you woulde haue them for the distance of places and the number of persons is not altered onely the ease of the Pastor and greater paynes of the people is procured For whereas the Pastor before came to them nowe must they take paynes to come to him But suche things you wil not voutsafe the answering bicause in déede you can not Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 50. Sect. 1. For who deuided Parishes and who hathe authoritie to ioyne Of the diuision of parishes them dyd not Dionisius a Monke and Pope of Rome for it is thus written of him Tom. 1. conci Dionisius Monacbus Papa presbyteris ecclesias diuisit coemiteria parochiasque Dioeceses constituit Dionisius a Monke and Pope deuided to Priestes Churches and Churcheyardes and appoynted Parishes and Dioces T. C. Page 50. Sect. 6. 7. Do you beleeue that whiche you set downe of Denis the Monke and Pope that he deuised and deuided parishes If you doe not why woulde you haue vs beleeue it If the law doth condemne him that turneth a blinde man out of the way or layeth a blocke before him what dothe it him which woulde put out the eyes of them that see their way already I haue shewed and Assertions without proofe ▪ the matter is playne that the Lord deuided nationall Churches into parishes and congregations So that if S. Paule haue not the worde of parishe yet he hathe the thing And those that haue read stories knowe that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whiche we call a Diocesse and whiche conteyneth with vs numbers of parishes was at the first taken to be the same that parishe is and vsed a great whyle before Denis was borne or munkerie begotten And as for
with the offices then suche as speake of the very thyng it sel e withoute the names I will begin with Councels The Councell of Nice as you haue hearde hath the name of Metropolitane Councels of the name and o ice of Metropolitane an Archbishoppe c. Con. Ni en Can. 4. 7. and dothe limitte vnto ym certaine Prouinces to gouerne and take the care of It hathe bin declared that bothe M. Caluine Illyricus M. Foxe and others doe acknowledge the names and office of Patriarkes and Archbishoppes c. in the same Canon to be conteyned Neyther doe they nor any other learned wryter denie these names and offices to haue bene in the primitiue Churche and that fixed to certayne places and persons not mouable by actions nor practised by course Lykewyse you haue hearde howe that Councell by this clause Secundùm morem antiquum according to the auncient custome doth signifie that these names and offices haue bene in the Churche of long tyme or else it woulde not haue bin saide to be an olde custome Moreouer the nynthe Canon of the Councell of Antioche before alledged is Con. Antiocb can 9. most playne and euident both for the name and the thing together with the long continuance of them in the Churche The. 20. Canon of the same Councell of Antioche sayeth directly that no Bishoppes Can. 20. may call a seuerall Councell withoute the consente of theyr Metropolitanes In the sixth and. 37. Canons Concilij Arelatensis mention is made of the Metropolitane Con. Arelat cano 6. 37. of his authoritie in ordering of bishoppes and of the authoritie of his Synode The lyke bothe for the name and the matter also touchyng ordeynyng of Con. L odic can 12. Con Cartb 2. Can 12. Byshoppes is in the twelsth Canon of the Councell of Laodicea In the seconde Councell of Carthage in the twelfthe Canon it is euident that there was a Primate in euerye Prouince and that withoute his commaundement it was not lawfull for any to bée ordeyned Bishop In the. 13. and. 17. and diuers other Canons of the general Councell of Carchage Con. Carth. can 13. ▪ 17. c Con. Chalcedo as it is in the Gréeke copie the authoritie of the Primate is also expressed In the Councell of Chalcedon the name of Archebishoppe is sundrye tymes vsed Flauianus is there called Archebishop of Constantinople Dioscorus Archebishop of Alexandria and one Atticus bishoppe of Nicopolis dothe call the saide Dioscorus Archi piscopum nostrum our Archebishop Leo is called Archebishop of Rome c. Of the Councels that folowed there is no doubte and it were but superfluous for mee to stande in reciting of them and therfore thys shall suffise for the Councels to shew that bothe the name of Metropolitane or Archbishop and also the authoritie is not vnhearde of in the Churche of Christ or a flitting or slyding office Fathers and 〈◊〉 of the name and 〈◊〉 t Archebishop E phanius Nowe to the fathers and stories Epiphanius Lib. 2. tom 2. haeri 68. calleth one Peter Archebishoppe of Alexandria And that it maye fully appeare that it was bothe a continuall office and of greate authoritie and iurisdiction I will sette towne his woordes Et Meletius quidem in carcere detentus erat vnà cum praedictis Martyribus ac Petro Alexandriae Arc iepiscopo c. And Meletius truely was kepte in pryson togyther with the forenamed Martyrs and Peter the Archbishop of Alexandria and Meletius seemed to excell the other bishops of Aegypt for he had the seconde place after Peter in his Archbishoprike as being vnder him to helpe him and looking to Ecclesiasticall matters vnder him For this is the custome that the Byshoppe of Alexandria hathe the Ecclesiasticall gouernmente of all Aegypte Thebais and Mareota and Libya and Ammonica and Mareotis and Pentapolis In the same leafe he calleth this Peter Archbyshop thrée times This Peter lyued in the yeare of our Lorde thrée hundred and foure twentie yeres at the least before Peter Arch bishop of Alexandria abou twentie yeres before the Councell of Nice Idem the Councell of Nice The same Epiphanius in the same Booke and Tome baere 69. writeth thus Quotquot enim Ecclesiae in Alexandria catholicae Ecclesiae sunt sub vno Archiepiscopo sunt All the Churches that are Catholike Churches in Alexandria are vnder one Archebyshoppe And a little after he calleth Meletius Archebyshoppe of Aegypte but yet subiecte to Alexander the Archebyshoppe of Alexandria and all this was before the Councell ot Nice What can be spoken more aptely and more playnely to my purpose And if T. C. will cauill at the authoritie of the authour whyche is the poorest shifte that can bée especially when the authour is so generally allowed then for breuities sake I doe referre hym to the Epistle of Ianus Cornarius prefixed before this Booke and to that whiche after warde I haue alledged in his defense out of the Centuries Athanasius was called Archebyshoppe of Alexandria and that it may appeare that it was not a bare title but an office of Gouernment you shall finde these wordes in his second Apologie Iscbaras quidam vt nequaquam clericus ita moribus improbissimus conatus est sui pagi insulas decipere iactans sese clericum esse Id vbi resciuisset eius loci Presbyter mibi tum Ecclesias Atbanas Apol. 2. perlustranti renunciauit ego igitur c. A certaine man named Ischaras as hee was no Clearke so was hee most wicked in manners who wente aboute to deceyue the yles of his precincte boasting that hee was a Clarke when the Prieste of that place vnderstoode thereof hee tolde it vnto mee when I was visiting my Churches so I sente the same man togyther wyth Macharius the Prieste to fetche vnto mee Ischaras whome when they founde sicke in his chamber they commaunded hys father to warne hys sonne that hee attempted no suche thing as was reported of him And after in the same place followeth Ischaras Letters of submission to Athanasius In the same Apologie there are Letters of submission written by Arsennius Byshoppe of Hipsell and the Ministers and Deacons of the same Diecesse to Athanasius the beginning of the Letters is this Et nos quoque diligentes pacem vnanimitatem cum ecclesia catholica cui tu per Dei gratiam praefectus es volensque ecclesiastico Canoni pro veteri instituto subijci scribimus tibi Papa dilecte promittimusque in nomine Domini nos deinceps non communicaturos cum schismaticis c. And we also louing peace and concord with the Catholike Churche ouer whiche thou arte by the grace of God appoynted and willing accordyng to the olde custome to be subiecte to the Ecclesiasticall Canon write to thee louing father and in the name of the Lorde promise that wee hences orth will not communicate with the Schismatikes By this it is playne that Athanasius had great iurisdiction ouer many Byshops and other
Ministers and ecclesiasticall persons Againe in the same Apologie mention is made of an Archbyshop In the same Booke the Priestes and Deacons of the Churches of Mareota in an Epistle that they writte to the Synode besydes that they call Athanasius Episcopum nostrum oure Byshoppe they shewe that hée vsed to visite the Churche solemnlye accompanyed Theyr wordes are woorthe the notyng and bée these folowyng Vtpote qui non longis finibus ab Episcopo distemus comites in lustranda Marioteei cohasimus nunquam enim ille solus visitandi causa itinera obire solet sed comites secum trabere Presbyteros Diaconos non paucos ex plebe Bicause we dwell not farre from the Byshoppe and we accompanied him whilest he visited Mariotes for he is neuer wont alone to take iourneyes in visitations but to take companions with him Priestes and Deacons and many of the people And his own wordes a little before that Epistle speaking of these Priestes and Deacons be these Et mecum Prouincias lustrabant And they visited the Prouinces with me Whereby also it is euident that he had a large iurisdiction and that he did visite his Prouinces The same Athanasius in that Apologie declaring what this place called Mariotes is sayth Mariotes ager est in Alexandria quo in loco nunquam fuit Episcopus imo ne Chorepiscopus quidem sed vniuer sae eius loci Ecclesiae Episcopo Alexandrino subiacent tamen vt singuli pagi suos presbyteros habeant Mariotes is a territorie of Alexandria where there was neuer Byshop no not so muche as a Byshops deputie but all the Churches of that place are vnder the Byshop of Alexandria yet so that euery village haue their Priestes In his Epistle Ad solitariam vitam degentes he calleth Lucius Metropolitane of Sardinia and Dionysius Metropolitane of Mediolane Socrates Lib. 5. cap. 8. sayth that in the Councell of Constantinople They confirmed Socrates the faythe of the Nicene Councell and appointed Patriarkes assigning their Prouinces that the Byshoppes of one Dioces shoulde not intermedle in other Churches for this before was indifferently vsed by reason of persecution And to Nectarius was allotted Megalopolis and Thracia c. The same is to be séene in the Canons of that Councell of Constantinople Iustinian Illyricus Cent. 4. I omitte Iustinian the Emperoure who so often mentioneth these names and offices in his Constitutions I also omitte that Illyricus calleth Cyprian Metropolitane of Carthage and the fourthe Centurie where Ambrose is called Metropolitane hauyng gouernmente of many Churches Neyther shall I néede to repeate the places of Caluine M. Foxe M. Beza Lib. conf cap. 5. or other late wryters iudgementes who directely confesse that these names were vsuall in the Primitiue Churche and that the office was permanente for this that is spoken maye suafice I will come to those Authours and places where the office and iurisdiction is The office of Metropolitan Archbishop without the name Cyprian Greg. Nazi spoken of though the name be not expressed Cyprian Lib. 4. Epist. 8. sayeth that he hadde a large Prouince Habet enim Numidiam Mauritaniam sibi cobaerentes for it hathe Numidia and Mauritania annexed vnto it And Gregorie Nazianzene in the Oration that he made in the commendation of Cyprian sayeth that he didde rule and gouerne not onely the Churches of Carthage or Affrike sed Hesperiae vniuersae imò Orienti ferè ipsi ad finem vsque meridiei Septentrionis but of all Spayne and almoste of the whole Easte vnto the ende of the Southe and the Northe And what was this else but to bée an Archebyshop Eusebius Lib. 6. cap. 1. sayeth that Demetrius was Byshop of the Parishes of Alexandria Eusebius and of Egypt and this Demetrius liued Anno Domini 191. Eusebius testifyeth there likewise that one Iulianus was before him in the same roume Athanasius in an Epistle that he writte De sentētia Dionysij Episcopi Alexand. contra Arrianos Atbanasius affirmeth ad Dionysium Alexandria ▪ Episcopum curam etiam Ecclesiarum in Pentapoli superioris Libyae pertinuisse that vnto Dionysius Bishoppe of Alexandria the care of the Churches in Pentapolis of the higher Libya perteyned And it is manyfeste in the same Epistle that these Churches had their Byshoppe besydes For Eusebius Lib. 7. cap. 26. Euseb. writeth that Basilides was Byshoppe of the parishes of Pentapolis while Dionysius lyued so that it is euident that Dionyfius was an Archebyshoppe And this is that Dionysius that is called Alexandrinus whose workes be extante and is one of the most ancient writers The same Eusebius sayth that Gregorie did gouerne the Churches throughout Pontus Sozomen Lib. 7. cap. 19. sayth that though there be many cities in Sythia yet they Sozom. haue but one bishoppe Theodoret. lib. 4. cap. 11. testifyeth that Amphilochius to whome the Metropolitane citie of Licaonia was committed to be gouerned did also gouerne that whole countreye and did driue from thence the heresie of the Messalians And in the same Chapter we Theodoret. reade that Letoius gouernour of the Churches of Militia burned Monasteries infected with that heresie whiche declareth that Bishops had then greate authoritie in gouernment Aurelius Bishop of Carthage in the Councell of Affrike sayd that he had the ouersyght and care of many Churches But what néede I labour so muche in a matter that can not be vnknowne to Con. Afric can 55. in graeco any that is of any reading this therfore shall suffice bothe for the name and office of an Archebishop Metropolitane c. against the vnlearned distinction that you haue vsed in answering S. Ambrose Chap. 2. the. 26. Diuision Auswere to the Admonition Pag. 66. Sect. 5. Sozomenus lykewyse Lib. 2. of his Ecclesiasticall historie cap. 8. calleth Symeon Archbishop of Seleucia and Basile the greate Metropolitane of Cappadocia Lib. 3. cap. 16. T. C. Page 71. Sect. vlt. Basill you saye the great Metropolitane of Cappadocia I haue shewed what the woorde Metropolitane signifyeth and howe there was not then suche a Metropolitane as wee haue now and as the Admonition speaketh agaynst You playe as he whithe is noted as none of the wysest among the marchauntes whyche thought that euery shippe that approched the hauen was his ship For so you thinke that wheresoeuer you reade Metropolitane or Archebishoppe ▪ foorthwith you thinke there is your Metropolitane or your Archebishop where as it shall appeare that besydes the name they are no more lyke than a bishop with vs is lyke a minister Io. Whitgifte What this worde Metropolitane signifyeth what office and iurisdiction he had is before sufficiently declared and may more at large appeare in the constitutions of Iustinian Lykewyse whether our Metropolitans in office any thing at all differ from them Surely he that shall well consider your vnapte answeres and your vtopicall iestes may thinke that you weare the liuerie of those marchantes you talke of and
as you are I could say that this sleight handling of the Archdeacon and sweating so much aboute the Archbyshop is there vpon that you would be loth to come from being Deane to be an Archdeacon and you liue in some hope of being Archbyshop but I will not enter so farre and surely for any thing that I see you mighte haue trussed vp the Archbyshop as shorte as you do the Archdeacon for they stād vpon one pinne and those reasons which establish the one establish the other Whervpon also commeth to passe that all those reasons which were before alledged against the Archbyshop may be drawen against the Archdeacon Io. Whitgifte The vntoward dealing of the replier his vnsufficiēt answer My purpose in that place is as you mighte haue séene if you woulde to proue that the names of Archbyshops Archdeacon c. be not Antichristian names that is names inuented by Antichriste but most auncient for those be my very words as I haue proued that to be most true in Metrapolitanes and Archbyshops by shewing that they were in the Churche before the Pope was Antichrist so I do the like of Archdeacons And where I haue brought in fiue witnesses you say I haue brought in fower Damasus Hierome Sixtus Sozomene and Socrates be in number fiue and of these fiue you haue answered only two and that after your vsuall manner by reiecting the Authors What is falsely attributed to Damasus in other matters is no answer to this that he reporteth of Archdeacons whiche also the third Centurie alledgeth as true And though he were Byshop of Rome yet was he a vertuous learned and godly Byshop So was Sixtus in like manner who liued Byshop of Rome Anno. 265. So that Damasus was neyther the first nor the best For Sixtus was martyred for the Gospell so was not Damasus They speake as much for Archdeacons as I require that is that their names were not inuented by Antichrist and if there were then no such tyrannie in the Churche of Rome as you here mislike and yet this name in that Church it is not like to be a tyrannicall name But I maruaile you will deale so barely in this matter knewing that Hierome who liued in Damasus his time hathe this name Archdeacon oftner than twise or thrise Without doubt you do not well consider what you write This Answer of yours was neuer as yet approued of any learned mā For what if Eusebius make mention of Subdeacons Acoluthes c. which were peraduenture profitable offices in the Church at that time doth it therefore follow that it is vnlawfull to haue Archdeacons I conclude no necessitie of the Archdeacon but I conclude hys antiquitie and bycause you cannot answer that you fall to scoffing and vnséemely iesting as your manner is and so do you shift off thrée of my witnesses Chap. 2. the. 30. Diuision T. C. Pag. 72. lin 2. Sect. 1. Hauing therefore before proued the vnlawfulnesse of them I will here set downe the differēce betweene those Archdeacons that were in times past and those whiche are nowe whereby it may appeare they are nothing like but in name They were no ministers as appeareth in (*) Vntruth no such thing appeareth Sozomene ours are Io. Whitgifte What one reason haue you vsed to proue the vnlawfulnesse of them If you meane such reasons as you haue against Archbyshops they be fully answered Not one word is there in the seuenth booke and nineteenth Chapter of Sozomene to proue that Archdeacons eyther then were not or now may not be ministers For all that he speaketh in that chapter is this And this also is a strange thing in the Church of Alexandria whiles the Gospells are a reading the Byshop doth not rise vp which I haue hard of others This holy booke a Monke that is an Archdeacon readeth there in other places Deacons in many Churches the priests only but in principall feasts Byshops Howe you can conclude that Archdeacons were not then ministers by any thing here spoken surely I know not for if you meane bycause he saith that in some churches only Priests did reade you can no more thereof conclude that Archdeacons were then no Priests than you may that they were no Deacons or that Byshops be no Priestes neyther is it necessary that they shoulde be nowe ministers it is sufficiente if they be Deacons yet may they be ministers and méete it is that they should so be and you cannot proue the contrary Chap. 2. the. 31. Diuision T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 2. They were tyed to a certaine Church and were called Archdeacon of such a congregation or Con. Vrbinum Sozo 7. lib. cap. 19. Church ours are tyed to none but are called Archdeacons of such a shire Io. Whitgifte There is no other words in that booke and chap. of Sozomene touching Archdeacons than these whiche I haue before recited what they make for your purpose let the reader iudge Your Vrbanum Concilium is very obscure for there is none such to be found in all the volumes of Councels But to put you out of doubt we haue no Archdeacons but such as be tyed to one Church though they haue the names sometimes of the Shire wherein their iurisdiction lyeth Chap. 2. the. 32. Diuision T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 3. Ierom. to Euagri They were chosen by all the deacons of the Church where they be Archdeacons ours are appointed by one man and which is no Deacon Io. Whitgifte There can be no such custome gathered of Hieroms words in that place only he vsing an example to declare what the manner of choosing their Byshop was in the Church of Alexandria saith that they elected one from among themselues whome they placing in an higher roome called him a Byshop as if the souldiers should choose their captayne or Deacons should choose one of them whome they know to be painfull and name him archdeacon You can no more hereof conclude that it was then vsuall for deacons to choose their Archdeacon than you may that it was also vsual for souldiers to choose their captaine neyther can you here by proue that our Archdeacons are not like vnto theirs if this were true no more than you can that our Captaines are not like vnto theirs bycause the Souldiers do not choose them But what create matter is it if they were then chosen by Deacons and be not so now and doth not the Byshop appoynt them and is not the Byshop more than a Deacon Chap. 2. the. 33. Diuision Con. Nicen can 14. and after Ruf. 20 T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 4. They were subiect to the minister of the word ours are aboue them and rule ouer them Io. Whitgifte There is not one word of Archdeacons in the fourtaenth Canon of the Councell of Nice nor in the 20. after Ruffine and therefore you do but abuse the reader That which is in that place is spoken of Deacons onely and is at this day obserued in this
the Churches in Pontus with these lawes the Gréeke woorde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I shall moste hartely desire the Reader to consider this dealing of yours surely I thinke fewe Papistes would haue dealt in lyke manner And if the woordes of themselues were not playne as they be most playne yet very reason might haue taught you that this was Theodoretes meaning for if he should not haue ment some special care of these Churches wherfore should he rather make particular mētiō of them thā of other Churches do you not thinke that wisé mē can easily espie your grosse shifts Cyprians care ouer Rome was not lyke the care that he had ouer his owne Churches it could not be sayd that he embraced Rome with the same care of gouernment of reprouing of excommunicating such as durst offend c. that he did Carthage and other places committed vnto him as it is here sayd of Chrysostome I omit your ouersight in saying that Ireneus was sent to the Churches in Phrygia for Eusebius lib. 5. cap. 3. 4. which places you quote in your margent to proue it hath no such thing only he sayth that Ireneus was sent to Rome to Eleutherius Chap. 3. the. 66. Diuision T. C Pag. 89. Sect. 1. Now if you will conclude herevpon that Cyprian ruled the church of Rome or Ireneus the Church of Phrigia or M. Caluine or M. Beza the churches of Fraunce or that they were Bishops or Archbishops of those places you shall but conclude as you were wont to do but yet all men vnderstand that here is nothing lesse than an Archbishop or any such Bishop as we haue and vse in our church And if so be that Chrysostome should be Bishop or Archbishop of al these churches which were in all Asia Pontus Thracia as you would giue the reader to vnderstand you make him Bishop of (a) Or els you are deceyued more churches than euer the Pope of Rome was when he was in his greatest pryde his empire largest For there were sixe presidentships in Thracia in Asia there were an eleuen princes had seuerall regions or gouernments in Pontus as many if he were Bishop or Archbishop of all the churches within these dominions he had neede of a long spone to feede with all (b) An vntruth as will appeare It is certayne therfore that he was Bishop only of the church in Constantinople had an eye and a care to those other churches And that he was Bishop of one citie or of one churche it may appeare by that which I haue before alleaged out of the Greeke Scholiast vpon Titus who citeth there Chrysostome where it is sayd that S. Paule did not meane to make one ouer the whole I le (c) The wordes of the Scholiast peruerted but that euery one should haue his proper congregation c. And in another place he sheweth the difference betwene the Emperour and the Bishop that the one is ouer the 3. Hom. Act. world and the other that is the Bishop is ouer one citie Io. Whitgifte Your exāples proue nothing neither be they any thing like to this of Chrysostome Thracia c. annexed to the bishoprike of Constantinople for Theodorete doth mention these Churches as places annexed to the Bishopricke of Constantinople properly apperteyning to the care and charge of Chrysostome the Bishop of that citie Socrates speaking of a councell assembled at Constantinople sayth thus They do againe establish the fayth of the Coūcell of Nice deuiding prouinces Socrates li. 5. cap. 8. they appoint Patriarkes there was therfore allotted vnto Nectarius the great and ample citie of Constantinople Thracia c. And this Nectarius was Patriarch of Constantinople next before Chrysostome so that it is manifest that Chrysostome was Patriarch or Archbishop both of Constantinople and also of Thracia c. Sozomenus Sozom. lib. 8. cap. 6. sheweth euidently that Chrysostome had iurisdiction ouer all Asia and of other places also and that he executed iurisdiction there accordingly For he deposed to the Chrysostome xerciseth Archiepiscopal iuris ictiō in Asia number of 13. Bishops some in Lycia some in Phrygia some in Asia bycause they sould benefices and bestowed them for fauour and for rewarde And if you were not eyther very ignorant or wilfully bent you might haue read in Ecclesiasticall histories that one Bishop had authoritie and charge ouer diuers Churches long before Chrysostomes time the which thing I haue also before proued by diuers examples That Chrysostome was Archbishop of all those Churches although it be sufficiently proued by the testimonie of Theodorete a worthie writer and notable diuine and by Sozomene also yet will I adde as a full confutation of all your phansies in this matter the iudgement of the wryters and collectors of the Centuries who being many learned trauayling especially in such matters deserue great credit In their 5. Centurie cap. 10. they wryte thus of Chrysostome Non autem tantùm istius Ecclesiae Pastorem Cent. 5. cap. 10. Chrysostome Archbyshop of Thracia Asi c. egit c. But he was not onely Pastor of this Churche meaning Constantinople but was Archbishop also or ouerseer of other Churches in Thracia which was deuided into sixe presidentships in Asia which was ruled of eleuen pretors and in the region of Pontus which is likewise deuided into eleuen presidentships If o report of any historiographer will please you what remedy though you remayne willfull still yet I trust the tractable Reader may here finde sufficient to satisfie him For a further proofe that the Bishops of Constantinople were called Archbishops I could referre you to the generall Councell of Calcedon which was Anno. 453. where Flauianus is called Archbishop Act. 16. of Constantinople sundry times Where also it appeareth that the Archbishop of Cōstantinople had the ordeyning allowing and disallowing of the Bishops in Pontus Asia and Thracia You are greatly deceyued in saying that if he were Archbyshop of al these Churches he was Bishop of m e Churches than euer the Pope was in his greatest pryde for euen all these Churches and all other Churches were made subiect to him when by Phocas he was made the head of the Church and vniuersall Bishop and though he had not possession of all yet did he clayme interest in all and iurisdiction ouer all or at the least ouer so many of them as professed Christianitie You say it is certayne therefore that he was Bishop onely of the Church in Constantinople and had an eye and care to those other Churches and against this your owne certayntie without any ground or authoritie I haue brought in Theodoret Sozomene the Councell of Calcedon and the Centuries although in effect you confesse asmuch as I desire for there is neyther Archbishop nor Bishop in this Church but he hath his peculiar sea and Church and yet care of gouernment ouer other also euen as Chrysostome had
kinde of gouernment onely he mislyketh the name Hierarchia what can bée plainlyer spoken both of the name and office of the Archbishop As for your fonde deuise that it shoulde be his office onely to gather voyces c. it is singular to your selfe you haue not one learned wryter that I can read with you The Bishops that now are in this Church neyther haue nor chalenge to haue more iurisdiction than the olde Bishops had nay they haue not so much as it is euidently to be séene in the olde Canons and therefore M. Caluine allowing of them doth allow of ours also His place to the Philippians maketh agaynst you for he alloweth one to be superiour amongst the ministers and to rule the rest and sayth that as the nature and disposition of men nowe is there coulde be no order except it were so which doth vtterly ouerthrow the equalitie that you and the Admonition dreame of He saith that he speaketh de singulis corporibus which he cannot vnderstand of particular parishes for euery particular parishe hath not many ministers so that of necessitie he must haue manie senerall Churches to make the bodie he speaketh of and therefore a Diocesse or a prouince I thinke M. Caluine did thinke Geneua and the townes therevnto adioyning and belonging to be but one bodie so doe I thinke London and the Diocesse therevnto perteyning to be but one particular bodie And likewyse the Prouince of Canterburie distinguished into diuerse partes and members to be but one bodie in like maner Neyther do I thinke that master Caluine euer shewed his mislyking of these degrées in this Churche as they be nowe vsed for as I sayde before the great abuse of them vnder the Pope made him more to mislyke of them than hée woulde haue done but in these wordes that I haue repeated of his he testifyeth as T. C. letteth that slip that maketh against him much as I desire that is the antiquitie and the cause and vse of those offices and that which you omit and skip ouer that herein the olde Bishops did frame no kinde of gouernment in the Church diuerse from that which the Lord hath prescribed in his word which neyther you nor your adherents can abide to heare of Chap. 3. the. 71. Diuision T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. 3. But here I cannot let passe M. Doctours ill dealing whiche recyting so muche of master Caluine (*) Vniust accusation cutteth him off in the waste and leaueth quite oute that whiche made agaynst him that is whiche M. Caluine sayeth in these woordes Althoughe sayeth he in this disputation it may not be passed ouer that this office of Archbyshop or Patriarke was most rarely and seldome vsed which dealing seemeth to proceede of a verie euill conscience Io. Whitgifte I knowe not what perfection is in your booke more than in mine but I am sure that I haue followed mine owne booke faythfully and truely neither haue I omitted one worde that maketh eyther with me or agaynst me and therefore you haue vniustly charged mée The booke that I follow was printed Anno. 1553. wherein there are no such wordes that this office 〈◊〉 Archbishop or Patriarke was most rarely and seldome vsed Neither is there cause why M. Caluine shoulde so say for he could not but knowe that these offices haue had continuance in the Churche at the least since before the Councell of Nice for there are these wordes mos antiquus perduret c. and that they were continually affixed to the Bishoprikes of certaine Cities as Rome Antioch c. In déede in the last edition of his institutions he hath these wordes quanquam in hac disputatione praeteriri non potest quod rarissimi erat vsus which wordes he referreth to The vse of the Patriarch rare in what sense ▪ the office of a Patriarch whome he sayth the Nicene Councell did place in dignitie and order aboue Archbishops for the preseruation of discipline neither doth he say that the office of a Patriarke was moueable or chosen at euery action for then shoulde he affirme that which is repugnant to all Hystoryes Councelles ▪ and auncient wryters that speake of Patriarkes but his meaning is that there was but seldome tymes occasion offered for Patriarkes to exercise the authoritie they had ouer Archbishoppes which is the occasion that the most authours doe confounde them and thinke them to be all one other meaning than this his wordes neyther can nor doe admit Chap. 3. the. 72. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 74. Sect. vlt. Hemingius in his Enchirid. sheweth that these degrees in the Hemingi ▪ Church be necessarie that discipline cannot be kept without them And he addeth that their Church kepeth this forme Necmouetur saith he Anabaptistarum ac Libertinorū effreni libidine qui ecclesiam Christi barbaricum quendam bominū caetum sine ordine fingunt cū habeat nostra ecclesia non solū exemplū Apostolicae purioris ecclesiae verum etiam mandatum spiritus sancti omnia ordinaté decenter ad aedificationem faciendi Neyther is our Church moued vvith the licencious libertie of Anabaptists and Libertines vvhich feine the Church of Christ to be a barbarous confused societie vvithout order seeing that our Church hath not onely the example of the Apostolicall and most pure Church but also the commaundement of the spirite of God to do all things orderly and decently to edifie T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. 4. Then followeth Hemingius who you say approueth these degrees of Archbishop Metropolitane Bishop Archdeacon for so you must needes meane when you say he approueth these Cap. 10. 3. class lib. Enchirid. vvhere also among the popish orders he reckeneth the 〈◊〉 degrees or else you say nothing for therevpon is the question Nowe howe vntruly you speake let it be iudged by that which followeth First he sayth that our Sauiour Christ in S. Luke distinguisheth and putteth a difference betweene the office of a Prince and the office of the Minister of the Church leauing dominion to the Princes and taking it altogither from the Ministers ▪ here you see not onely howe he is agaynst you in your exposition in the place of S. Luke which woulde haue it nothing else but a prohibition of ambition but also howe at a worde he cutteth the throte of your Archbishop and Bishoppe as it is nowe vsed And afterwarde speaking of the Churches of Denmarke he sayeth they haue Christ for their heade and for the outwarde discipline they haue Magistrates to punishe with the sworde and for to exercise the ecclesiasticall discipline they haue Bishoppes Pastours Doctours which may keepe men vnder with the worde without vsing any corporall punishment Here is no mention of Archbyshoppes Primates Metropolitanes And althoughe he sheweth that they keepe the distinction betweene Bishoppes and Ministers agaynst which there hath beene before spoken yet he sayeth that the authoritie which they haue is as the authoritie of a father not as the power
you that the Lorde ordeyned that there should be in euery congregation diuers pastors elders or Byshops The place of scripture if there be any had bin soone quoted Or howe proue you that Sathan wrought first that there should be but one in euery Church Is it Sathās worke Sathan not the cause of one Byshop in one church that one Church should haue but one pastor This is straunge doctrine and far from an Apostolicall spirite contrary to the practise of the Apostles and of the Church euen from the beginning But séeing you haue so barely set it downe without any kynde of proofe I will passe it ouer by putting you to your proofe But yet tell me dyd Sathan stirre vp Timothie and Titus who were Byshops of one whole diocesse Did he stirre vp the other auncient fathers and godly Bishops of whome I haue spoken Whither will this slaunderous mouth reache whome will this venemous tongue spare if it speake so spitefully of such worthie Pastors Your collection of resistance that hath béene to such superioritie béeing grounded of the place that you neuer sawe nor red is rashe and vnaduised For if you had séene eyther that Epystle or those Canons you woulde or at the least you might haue learned another lesson Archbishops Patriarches c. were allowed by the Councell of Nice the godlyest and the most perfect Councell since the Apostles time that euer was And did Sathan rule there also and preuayle O that Arius were aliue to heare it These steppes whereof you make Sathan the authour and whereby you say the Bishop of Rome hath ascended into the Chayre of pestilence c. haue béene the best and most conuenient kinde of gouernment that euer was in the Church since the Apostles time approued and allowed by the best Councels and the next meanes to haue kept Antichrist out of his seate if in all places they had remayned in theyr full force and authoritie But this I may not passe ouer that you in effect confesse your kinde of gouernment by elders to haue ceased before the Councell of Nice and also one Bishop to haue béene ouer one whole Diocesse before that time in that you say that the childe of perdition was lifted vp by these degrées the last whereof was allowed in the Nicene Councell Chap. 5. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Page 96. Sect. 2. Hauing nowe shewed howe this Lordly estate of the Bishop began and vppon what a rotten grounde it is builded I come to shewe howe farre the Bishops in our tyme are for theyr pompe and outwarde statelinesse degenerated from the Bishops of elder tymes Io. Whitgifte A man woulde haue thought that you being so great an enimie to those degrées woulde not haue thus concluded vpon so small proofe and the same vtterly vntrue vsing onely for your grounde the Epistle of Pope Zacharie which maketh nothing for your purpose Now let vs sée how farre the Bishops of our tyme are for theyr pompe c. degenerated from the Bishops of elder tymes Chap. 5. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 3. And here I call to remembrance that which was spoken of the poore estate of Basill and Theodorete and if M. Doctour will say as he doth indeede in a certaine place that then was a time of persecution and this is a time of peace it is easily answered that although Basill were vnder persecution yet Theodorete liued vnder good Emperours But that shall appeare better by the Canons which were rules giuen for the Bishops to frame themselues by Io. Whitgifte It is for lacke of other examples that you are constreyned to repeate these To the poorenesse of Theodorete I haue answered there may be as poore Bishops now as there was then and there might be as riche Bishops then as there are nowe It is not one or two examples that can proue the contrarie Chap. 5. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 1. In the 4. Councell of Carthage it is degreed that the Bishops shoulde haue a little house 14. Canon ▪ it calleth it hospitiolū ▪ 15. Canon neare vnto the Church what is this compared with so many fayre large houses and with the princely Palace of a Bishop And in the same Councell it is decreed that he shoulde haue the furniture and stuffe of his house after the common sort and that his table and dyet shoulde be poore and that he should get him estimation by faythfulnesse and good conuersation Io. Whitgifte In the. 52. and. 53. Canons of the same Councell Clearkes how learned so euer they be in Gods woorde are willed to get their liuing by some occupation or by husbandrie but I thinke you will not haue them so to do now at this time Wherefore you must cōsider the diuersitie of the time and state of the Church If God hath dealt now more bountifully with his Church in externall benefites if he hath put into the hearts of Christian Princes thus to deale with the ministers of the woorde and if this state and condition be necessary for this time and people why should you enuie it Ritches and fayre houses be no hinderances but helpes if they be vsed accordingly and commonly hypocrisie and pryde lieth hidde vnder the name of pouertie and simplicitie Chap. 5. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Page 97. Sect. 1. And in another Councell that the Bishops should (a) No suche thing in that place not giue themselues to feastes but be 5. Canon concil Tyronen content with a litle meate Let these Bishops be compared with oures whose chambers shine with gilte whose walles are hanged with clothes of Auris whose cupbordes are loden with plate whose tables and diets are furnished with multitude and diuersitie of dishes whose dayly dinners are feastes let them I say be compared together and they shall be founde so vnlike that if those old Bishops were aliue they would not know eche other For they would thinke that oures were Princes and ours would thinke that they were some hedge Priests not worthie of their acquaintaunce or fellowship Io. Whitgifte If you meane the first Tyronense Concilium there is no such thing to be found in the 5. Canon of it nor in the whole Councell The fifth Canon conteyneth a profitable admonition for you and such as you are for it forbiddeth vnder the payne of excōmunication that any beyng a Clearke should leaue of his calling and become a lay man If you meane the seconde Tyronense Concilium I make you the like answere Belike your collector hath deceyued you but what if it were so This onely might be gathered that vnlesse Bishops then had bene welthie there should not haue néeded a decrée against feasting If our Bishops should make the like now it would be thought they did it for sparing And I thinke that and such like Canons méete not onely for Bishops but for all states and degrées of men Riches and costly furniture bée no impediment to a godly man for doing
Bishop of Smyrna Tertull. de praescript In the Church of Alexandria from the time of S. Marke the ministers had always a Bishop to gouerne them Hiero. ad Euagrium Ignatius who liued in the Apostles tyme doth call a Bishop principem Sacerdotum the prince of Priestes in epist. ad Smyrnenses In Eleutherius is tyme whiche was Anno. 180. when this realme of England Testimonies of the tymes nexte after the Apostles Anno. 180. was fyrst conuerted to Christianitie there was appoynted in the same thrée Archbishops and. 28. Bishops M. Foxe To. 1. pag. 146. Demetrius who liued Anno. 191. was Bishop of Alexandria and of Egypt Euseb. libr. 6. cap. 1. 191. Cyprian who was Anno. 235. being Bishop of Carthage had vnder him Numidia 235. and Mauritania as he himselfe sayeth Lib. 4. Epist. 8. And Gregorie Nazianzene in an oration that he made of Cyprian sayth that he ruled and gouerned not onely the churches of Carthage and Aphrike but of Spayne also and of the whole East churche And for this cause doth Illyricus call him a Metropolitane the which name T. C. also doth giue vnto him in his Replie Pag. 95. sect 2. Dionysius called Alexandrinus who lyued Anno. 250. béeyng Bishop of Alexandria 250. hadde also vnder his iurisdiction all the Churches in Pentapolis as Athanasius testifyeth in a certainepistle Apol. 2. and yet hadde these Churches their proper Bishop as Eusebius dothe witnesse lib. 7. cap. 26. Wherefore the Bishoppe of Alexandria did gouerne them as Archebishop Gregorie béeing Bishop did gouerne all the Churches thorowe Pontus An. 270 270. Eus. lib. 7. cap. 14. Epiphanius li. 2. to 2. haeri 68. maketh mention of one Peter who liued An. 304. whom be calleth Archbishop of Alexandria and declareth that Meletius then Bishop in Egypt 304. was vnder him where also he hath these words Hic enim mos obtinet vt Alexandriae Episcopus totius Aegypti ac Thebaidis Mariotaeque ac Lybiae Ammonicaeque ac Mariotidis ac Pentapolis ecclesiasticam habeat administrationem For this custome hath preuailed that the Bishop of Alexandria should haue the Ecclesiasticall gouernment of all Egypt Thebai Mariota Lybia Ammonica Mariotis and Pentapolis And haere 69. he sayth Quotquot enim ecclesiae in Alexandri cat olicae ecclesiae sunt sub vno Archiepiscopo sunt For all the Churches in Alexandria that be Catholike are vnder one Archebishop The same Epiphanius in the same place doth call Meletius Archbishop of Egypt 304. but yet he sayth that he was subiect to the Archbishop of Alexandria And this Meletius liued also Anno. 304. The Councell of Nice An. 330. in the. 4. Canon sayth that the confirmation of Bishops 3 0. doth pertein to the Metropolitane of euery prouince and in the. 6. mention is made of Metropolitanes to be in euery prouince and that sec ndùm antiquum morem according to the olde custome And it is further sayde that the Bishop of Alexandria hath the regiment of Libya and Pentapolis in Egypt In the. 6. 37. Canons of the secōd Councell of Arelat it is decréed that no Bishop may be ordeined without the consent of the Metropolitane nor any thing to be attempted 335. against the great Synode of the Metropolitane The Councell of Antioch in the. 9. Canon willeth y t in euery prouince y e Bishops be subiect to their Metropolitane bishop which hath y e care of the whole prouince c. And in that Canon is this clause also Secundùm antiquam à patribus nostris regulam constitutam 344. according to the auncient rule appointed by our forefathers Athanasius was Archbishop of Alexandria and had iurisdiction ouer the rest of the clergie to whom also Mariotes was subiect Atbana apo 2. Amphilochius Metropolitane of Lycaonia gouerned y ◠who le coūtry Theod. lib. 4. ca. 11. Zozomene li. 7. ca. 19. writeth that though there be many cities in Scythia yet they haue but one Bishop Aurelius bishop of Carthage in the councell of Aphrica sayth that he had the ouersight and care of many churches Ambrose li. de dig sacer ca. 5. maketh mētion of Archbishops he himself was a Metropolitane hauing charge and gouernment of many churches as the authors of the Centuries testifie in their fourth Centurie Simeon was Archbishop of Seleucia Zozo lib. 2. cap. 8. he liued about the tyme of the Nicene Councell Basile Metropolitane of Capadocia Zozo lib. 3. cap. 16. In the councel of Constātinople which is one of the. 4. general Councels in the. An. 38 and. 5. Canons this authoritie regimēt of Primates Metropolitanes Archbishops is conteine Which thing also Socrates doth note in the same Councell lib. 5. cap. 8. In the. Counce l of Carthage Canon 12. c. it is euident that in euerie Prouince An. 415. there was a primate In the councell of Chalcedon Flauianus is called Archbishop of Constantinople Dioscorus An. 453. Archbishop of Alexandria Leo Archbishop of Rome and the authorities of these offices and degrées there in diuers pointes specified In the first Canon of the councel of Ephesus it may manifestly be gathered y t all An. 468. other Bishops of y e same Prouince wer then subiect to their Metropolitane Bishop Hierome ad Rusticum Monachū sayth Singuli ecclesiarum Episcopi singuli Archipresbyteri singuli archidiaconi c. I omit his other places ad Lucif ad Titum c. Ambrose in 4 d Ephe. sayth that all orders be in a Bishop bicause he is primus sacerdos hoc est princeps sacerdotum the chief Priest that is Prince of priestes Augustine in his questions in vetas nouum test cap 101. sayth Quid est Episcopus nisi primus presbyter hoc est Summus sacerdos Chrysostome being Archbishop of Cōstantinople did also gouern the Churches in Thracia Asia and Pontus Tbeodo lib. 5. cap. 28 The authors of the Centuries affirme the same and call him Archbishop Cent. 5. cap. 10. Theodorete being bishop of Cyrus had vnder his gouernment 800. Churches as he himselfe t stifieth in his Epistle to Leo. Gennadius Bishop of Constantinople writeth to the Bishop of Rome thus Curet Rufsi libr. 1. cap. 29. sanctitas tua vniuersas tuas custodias tibique subiectos Episcopos Infinite testimonies and examples there are of this sorte and no man that is of any reading can be ignorant but that these degrées of superioritie and this kynd of regiment hath bin in the Churche continually euen from the Apostles tyme. M. Bucer vpon the fourthe to the Ephes. sheweth that these de rees in the churche Bishop Archbishop Metropolitane Primate Patriarke be not onely moste auntient but also necessarie M. Caluine in his Instit. cap. 8. Sect. 52. vpon the place of Hierome in the Epistle ad Euagriu sayth that in the old tyme there was to euery citie apointed acertain region Prouince or Dioces Quae presbyteros indè sumeret velut corpori illius ecclesia accenseretur and that
collected and approued If your particular reasons be no better a small confutation will serue Chap. 1. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 1. Furthermore as the wisedome of God hath thought it the best way to keepe his people from infection of idolatrie to make them most vnlike the idolaters so hath the same wisedome of God thought good that to keepe his people in the vnitie of the truth there is no better way than that they should be most like one to another and that as much as possibly may be they should haue all the same ceremonies And therefore Sainct Paule to establish this order in the Churche of Corinth 1. Cor. 16. that they shoulde make their gat erings for the poore vpon the firste day of the Sabboth which is our Sunday alleadgeth this for a reason that he had so ordeyned in other Churches so th t as children of one father and scruantes of one family he will haue all the Churches not onely haue one dyet in that they haue one word but also weare as it were one liuerie in vsing the same ceremonies Io. Whitgifte You take vpon you to tell what the wisedome of God is withoute any warrante of gods word which is presumptiō I told you before that in outward shew and orme the Israelites had many things like vnto the Gentiles which cannot be denyed Unitie of Ceremonies is to be wished in all Churches though it be not so necessary for from the beginning there hath bin therein great varietie but s eing it is a thing so greatly to be desired why are you an occasion of the contrary why do you not submit your sel e to the Church that vnitie in all things may be obserued Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. This rule did the great Councell of Nice follow when it ordeyned that where certaine at the Con. Nic. can 20. feast of Pentecost did pray kneeling that they should pray standing the reason whereof is added which is that one custome ought to be kept through out a the Churches It is true that the diuersitie of ceremonies ought not to cause the Churches to dissent one with another but yet it maketh much to the auoiding of dissention that there be amongst them an vnitie not only in doctrine but also in ceremonies Io. Whitgifte This is to be wished throughout the whole Church of Christ if it were possible but as i neuer was hitherto so will it not be as long as this 〈◊〉 lasteth and least it should be in this particular Church of Englande Sathan hathe stirred vp instruments to procure the contrarie wherfore in these words as I thinke you condemne your selfe and all other dis urbers of the Church for external rites and ceremonies Chap. 1. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. Nowe we see playnly that as the forme of our seruice and Lyturgy commeth to neare that of the 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 farr different from that of other Churches reformed and therefore in both these respects to be amended Io. Whitgifte From what reformed Church doth it so far differ ▪ or to which reformed Churche would you haue it framed or why should not other reformed Churches as well frame them selues vnto vs for we are as well assured of our doctrine and haue as good grounds and reasons for our doing as they haue except you will bring in a newe Rome appoynt vnto vs an other head Church and crea e a newe Pope by whom we must be in all things directed and according to whose vsage we must rame our selues You knowe what M. Caluine sayth in the argument vpon the Epistle to the Galatians Calu. in argu in Epi. ad Gal. speaking of those that came from Ierusalem to other Churches Many were puffed vp sayth he with vaine glory bicause they were familiar with the Apostles or at the least were instructed in their schole Therfore nothing pleased them but that which they had seene at Ierusalem all other rites that were not there vsed they did not only refuse but A 〈◊〉 mischiefe boldly condemne Such a kinde of frovvardnesse is a most pestilent mischiefe vvhen as vve vvill haue the maner of on Church to be in place of an vniuersall lavve But this ariseth of a preposterous zeale wherby we are so affected towards Prepostrou zeale one master or place that without iudgement or 〈◊〉 we would binde all men and places vnto the opinion of one ma and vnto the 〈◊〉 of one place as vnto a common 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idē in 15. rule Albeit there is alwayes mixed ambition yea rather alwayes too muche frowardnesse is ambitious The like saying he hath vpon the. 15. of the Actes Luke dothe not expresse by what affection these va lets were moued yet is it very like that a preposterous zeale was the cause that they set themselues agaynst Paule and Barnabas for there are frowarde Frowarde wittes wittes whome nothing but their owne can please They had seene at Ierusalem circumcision and other rites of the lawe to be obserued and whether soeuer they come they can abide no newe thing or diuers As if the example of one Churche dyd bynde all other Churches as vvith a certayn 〈◊〉 But althoughe suche men are led Ambition with a preposterous zeale to more tumults yet inwardly their ambition moueth them and a certayne kinde of contumacie pricketh them forwarde In the meane time Sa han hath that which he desireth that the mindes of the godly beeing darkned with the smoke and mists that he casteth can scant discerne blacke from white Therefore this mischiefe is first to be auoyded that none prescribe vnto other a lavve of their custome least the example of one Church be preiudiciall to the cōmon rule Then an other A necessari caution caution must be added least the estimation of mens persons do eyther hinder or obscure the searche and inquirie of the matter and cause For if Sathan do transforme himselfe into an Angell of light and if he oftentimes vsurpe with wicked 〈◊〉 the holy name of God what maruel is it if through the same wickednesse he delude with the names of godly mē M. Gualter also vpon these words 1. Cor. 14. An à vobis ser o Dei profectus est writeth Gualter i 1. Cor. 14. thus VVho can thinke their insolencie to be tollerable that vsurpe authoritie ouer all Churches and wil haue them seruilely to be subiect vnto them Therfore that which Paule here presently fayth to the Corinthians the selfesame may at this day with better right be spoken to the Romish Cleargie which will haue all men subiect to their lawes and say that it is necessary vnto saluation that all soules should be subiect to the Bishop of Rome Thes things may also be applyed agaynst those whiche compell euery man to sweare vnto the opinion of their master as though it were sinne neuer so little to disagree from those things which
disciplinae seuera misericordia necessaria est nam consilia separationis inania sunt perniti sa atque sacrilega quia impia superba fiunt plus perturbant infirmos bonos quà m corrigunt animosos malos Verily if the contagion of synne hath infected the multitude the seuere mercie of godlie discipline is necessarie for the purpose of separation is both vaine pernicious and sacrilegious bicause they are bothe wicked and presumptuous and doe more trouble the good that be weake than correcte or amend the euill that be stubborne Sainct Augustine doth not here alleadge this for a cause that sufficiente voyces can not be obteyned for excommunication as you pretende but he thinketh Excommunication to be altogether in vayne where the infection is generall But that it maye further appeare the doctrine that I affirme touchyng the authoritie Ex mmunication by bishops proued by the practise of the primi churche of Bishops in excommunicating to be true and to haue bene the vsuall practise of the Churche in the beste tyme and state of it I thoughte good in thys place to adde to my former testimonyes and answeres the authoritie of certaine Councels wherin the practyse of the Churche doth euidentely shew it selfe And fyrst to begynne with the Canons attributed to the Apostles and so ofte alleadged by T. C. In the. 32. or as it is in some bookes the. 33. of those Canons it is thus decréed Can. Apost 32. If any Priest or Deacon bee excommunicated of his Bishop it maye not bee lawfull for any other to receiue him but only the partie that hath separated him except that Bishop dye whiche hath excommunicated him in this Canon power to excommunicate and also to absolue is in plaine wordes committed to the Bishop alone The fifte Canon of the Councell of Nice speaketh of this matter in these wordes Con. Nicae can 5. Concernyng those that are separated from the Communion be they Clearkes or lay menne by the Bishops whiche are in euerie prouince Lette the sentence stande according to the canon whych doth pronounce those that are eiected of some not to be admitted of other But lette it bee examined whether the parties be excommunicated through the indignation or contention or frowardnesse of the Bishop and for this cause that the examination may be duly had let there be in euerie Prouince a Synode celebrated twice in the yeare The wordes be manyfeste and what néede suche pr sion for to examine the dooings of the Bishoppe if hée hadde not authoritie to Excommunicate alone The sixte Canon of the Councell of Antic he is this If any man hath bene excommunicated Con. Anti ch Can. 6. of his owne Bishop lette him not bee receyued of any other before he bee absolued of his owne Bishop or shall defende himselfe in a Synode and the Synode beeing persuaded receyue an other sentence The same decree is to bee obserued agaynst laye men and Priests and Deacons and those that be in the number of the Cleargie Why shoulde the Councell saye ee that is excommunicated of his owne Bishop c. if the authoritie and power of excommunicatyng did not belong to the Bishop alone In the seconde Councell of Carthage Canon 8. it is lykewyse determined That Con. Carthag 2. can 8. if a Priest beyng excommunicated or punished by his owne Bishop shall presume to celebrate he shall be accurssed In the sixte Councell of Carthage Can. 10. the same is affirmed Con. Carthag 6. can 10. In the Councell holden at Sardica Can. 13. or as it is in s me ookes 16. it is in lyke manner decréed That if a De con or a Priest or any of the leargie be excommunicated Con. Sardic Can. 13. of his owne Bishop and shall flee to an other Bishop vnderstanding that he is excommunicated of his owne Bishop he may not giue vnto hym the communion dooyng therby iniurie to his brother and fellowe Bishop By all these Canons and auncient Councels it is euident that from time to time euen in the best and purest state of the church Bishops alone haue had authoritie to excommunicate And least T. C. shoulde here flée to his olde shifte and newly deuised distinction The Bishop did excommunicate alone not as rator of the action that this is attributed to the Bishop bycause he was the chiefe of the action and did moderate it and not bycause the authoritie and power of excommunicatyng remayned in him alone althoughe the manyfest woordes of the Councells ouer ▪ throwe it and it is not to be iustifyed by any learning or good authoritie yet that the Con. Sard. Reader may the better vnderstande the vanitie of it I will recite the. 14. Canon or can 14. as it is in some bookes the. 17. canon of this Councell of Sardica wherein it dothe plainly appeare that the Bishop alone did excommunicate The canon is this If there shall be founde a Bishop prone to anger which ought not to be in such a man and being soone moued against a Priest or a Deacon shall caste him out of the churche or excommunicate him it must be foreseene that he be nor rashly condemned and excommunicated therfore lette him that is cast out haue libertie to complain to the Metropolitane of the same Prouince if he be absent then to the next Bishop c. and that Bishop which hath iustly or vniustly secluded him must be contente to haue his doings examined and his sentence either confirmed or corrected c. What néed these affections be seared in the Bishop if he could not excōmunicate without the consent of a Seigniorie or of the people For the Seigniorie might wel inough withstand this his hastynesse Wherfore it is playne that the Bishop alone may excommunicate But yet to cutte off all further cauilling I woulde haue you to vnderstande that I doo not so giue the authoritie of Excommunicating to the Bishop alone The authoritie of excommunication ascrided to the Byshop not in nite but l ces or to any one manne that I thynke hée maye excommunicate when he lyste withoute iuste cause and due proofe of the same my meanyng is not to make hym bothe accuser aud Iudge I doe not thinke that he oughte to excommunicate any before the partie be orderly and lawfully conuicted of suche crime or crimes as are to be punished by that Censure And that you maye knowe that I affirme nothing herein but the verie same that Saincte Augustine hath affirmed before me The practise in Augustins time and to the intente the worlde maye sée that my opinion in this poynte is not straunge or voyde of sufficiente authoritie I will sette downe his woordes as I fynde them in his booke De vtilitate necessitate poenitentiae and reported of Beda in Augustinus To. 10. ho. 50. his Commentaries vpon the fyrste Corinth 5. Althoughe some thinges be true yet the iudge muste not beleeue them vnlesse they bee sufficiently
by other councels as may appeare by the councell of Colen albeit otherwise Popishe And truly if there were nothing else but this consideration that the bringyng in of the readyng of Martyres liues into the churche and of the homilies of auncient wryters hath not onely by this meanes iustled with the Bible but also thrust it cleane out of the church or into a corner where it was not redde nor seene it ought to teache all men to beware of placing any wryting or worke of men in the church of God be they neuer so well learned as long as the world should endure Io. Whitgifte It is certayne that the decrée of the Councel of Laodicea can no more condemne the reading of Homilies in the Churche than it may the readyng of Prayers or Cathechismes or any other interpretation of the Scriptures The meaning of the Nothing ought to be read in the church vnder the name of Scriptures but the canonicall Councell is onely that nothing be redde in the Churche as Scripture or vnder the name of Scripture but that which is Canonicall And that doth euidently appeare in the. 47. Canon of the third Councell of Carthage which doth explane this Canon The woordes be these Item placuit vt praeter Scripturas Canonicas nihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine diuinarum scripturarum It is thought good that nothing be redde in the Church vnder the name of the scriptures of God but the Canonicall Scriptures It doth not therfore Con. Carth. 3. can 47. inhibite interpretations of the scripture and godly exhortations grounded vpon the same to be redde Concilium vasense as it is before declared appointeth Homilies Homilies appoynted to be redde to be redde when there is no Sermon by reason of some infirmitie or sickenesse in the minister which is a godly and profitable decrée neyther could it be the cause of any corruption I do not defend the reading of any thing in the Churche which is not grounded Nothing ought to be redde not grounded of the scriptures vpon the worde of God therefore the decrée of the Councell of Carthage or any such like doth nothing touch the cause that I defende and yet I know not in what sort or out of what storie these liues of Martyres were redde I like very well of the decrée of the councell of Colen for it inhibiteth the reading in the Churche of fabulous and barbarous stories of the liues of Sainctes whereby it is like that the booke called Legenda aurea is mente But what is this against godly Homilies that conteyne the true interpretation of the scriptures godly exhortation to good life sound proofes of true doctrine which is as far frō iustling the bible out of the church or into corners as is preaching And I muse that you can alleage this for a cause seing you thinke so slenderly of the reading of the Scriptures and will haue y e same giue place to your sermons Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Sect. 1. And if any man (*) You haue obiected that which you cannot answere obiect that by this meanes also is shut out of the church the forme of ordinarie Prayers to be sayde I saye the case is nothing lyke for when wee pray wee can not vse the wordes of the Scripture as they orderly lie in the text But for so much as the church prayeth for dyuers things necessarie for it the which are not conteined in one or two places of the scripture and that also there are some things which we haue need of wherof there is no expresse prayer in the scripture it is needfull that there be a forme of prayer drawne forthe out of the Scripture which the church may vse when it meeteth as the occasion of the tyme doth require which necessitie can not be by no meanes alleaged in the reading of Homelies or Apocrypha Whervpon appeareth that it is not so wel ordeyned in the church of Englande where both Homilies and Apocrypha are read especially when as diuers chapters of the books called Apocrypha are lifted vp so high that they are sometyme appoynted for extraordinarie lessons vpon feastes dayes wherein the greatest assemblies be made and some of the chapters of the canonicall Scripture as certain chapters of the Apocalyps quite lefte out and not redde at all Io. Whitgifte You haue made an obiection which you can not answere and against the which all these reasons that you haue before vsed do as much preuayle as they doe against reading of Homilies and whatsoeuer you can say for the one may likewise be said for the other For when we interprete the Scriptures when we teache or exhorte we can not vse onely the wordes of the scripture as they lye orderly in the texte but wee muste amplifye them displace them applie them to the matter we speake of entermingling them with our owne wordes and phrases For except you will graunt this to be lawfull as wel in exhorting and teaching as in publike preaching you must as I sayd before as well condemne Sermons as Homilies The Apocrypha that we reade in the Church haue bene so vsed of long tyme as Apocrypha redde in timèpaste in the churche it may appeare in that third councel of Carthage and 47. Canon where they be reckened among the Canonicall bookes of the Scripture They maye as well be read in the Church as counted portions of the olde and new Testament and forasmuch as there is nothing in them contrarie to the rest of the Scripture I sée no inconuenience but much commoditie that may come by the reading of them ¶ Of the name Priest giuen to the ministers of the gospell Chap. 3. The fyrst Diuision Admonition We speake not of the name of Prieste wherwith he defaceth the minister of Christe bicause the Priest that translated it would perhaps fame haue the minister of Christe to be ioyned wyth him seyng the office of priesthood is ended Christ being the last Priest that euer was To cai vs therfore Priests as touching our office is eyther to call backe againe the olde priesthoode of the law which is to denie Christ to be comen or else to keepe a memorie of the popishe priesthode of abhomination stil amongst vs. As for the fyrst it is by (d) Heb. 5. 1. 6. Heb. 9. 11. Chryst abolished and for the seconde it is of Antichrist and therfore we haue nothing to do with it Suche oughte to haue (e) Eze. 44. 10 Ierem. 23. Heb. 5. 4. no place in our Church neither are they ministers of Christ sente to preach his Gospell but Priests of the Pope to sacrifice for the quick and the dead that is to treade vnder their feet the bloud of Christ. Suche ought not to haue place amongst vs as the scriptures manifestly teache Besydes that we neuer reade in y e new Testament that this word Priest as touching office is vsed in y ◠good parte Answere to the
in the Defense for Archbishops and the superiority of Bishops 470. c. ¶ Archdeacons 344. c. ¶ Archiflamines 320. c. 323 ¶ Argumentum à secundùm quid ad simpliciter 23 Argumentum ab authoritate negatiuè 24. 26. 77. 328. 543 Argument of Negatiues by comparison 26 27 Argumentum à petitione principij 26. 62. 95. 249. 302. 304. 314. 322. 440. 451. Argumentum à non causa pro causa 27. 293. 482. Argumentum ab aequivocatione 62 Argumentum à facto ad us 142. 161. 505. Argumentum ab authoritate affirmatiuè 78 Argumentum ex solis particularibus pag. 79 Argumentum ab ignorantia Elenchi 109. 181. 187. 206. 426. A deformed argument 316. c. Arguments borowed of the Papists 466. 696. 697. 698. c. Argumentum à toto ad partes affirmatiuè 265 ¶ Aristotle not rightly alleaged 243 ¶ Arrogancie cloked with zeale 42 Arrogancie disprayseth good things pag. 725 Arrogancie of the libellers 57 ¶ Assertion vnaduised 475 ¶ Athanasius Archbishop 471. 339 Athanasius Creede 496 Athanasius being a child baptized pag. 519. ¶ Atheists in the Church 178 ¶ Auncient Fathers contemned of the vnlearned 811 ¶ Augustine of thinges indifferent pag. 99. c Augustine deliuered from vntrue surmises 100 Augustine heareth ciuill causes 771. 772. Augustine retorted vpon the aduersarie 811 ¶ Aurelius Bishop of Carthage had the ouersight of many Churches pag. 471 ¶ Authoritie the best proofe in Diuine matters 200 B ¶ Babling in prayer what it is 805 ¶ Baptisme the sacrament of fayth pag. 608. 609 Matters touching baptisme 607. c Of the parties to be baptised 619. c Baptisme once ministred remaineth perpetuall 622 The essentiall poynte of Baptisme pag. 519. Baptisme called priuate in respect of the place 93. 504 Baptisme ministred but once a yere pag. 238 Baptisme true though not ordinarily ministred 517. 521 Differring of Baptisme not cōuenient 521 Baptisme by lay men 518. 519. 523. Baptisme by women not collected out of the booke 504. 793. Baptisme by women not defended pag. 509. 516. 29. Baptisme ministred in priuate places 511. c. 513. Necessitie in Baptisme 523. Baptisme ministred withoute preaching 563 The name of Baptisme transferred to the giftes of the spirit 564 ¶ Basilius a Metropolitane 341. 471 ¶ Battus a babling Poet. 805 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 804 ¶ Beggers and ignorant persons are thoughte onely to bee saued of some 10 ¶ To beleue and to be elected not al one 611 ¶ Benedictus 494. c. 496. 497 ¶ Beza calleth the names of Archbishops c. holy names 472 Beza his iudgemēt of baptising the children of excommunicate person c. 623. 624. ¶ Bishops moste mete to haue the examination of ministers 131 Bishope haue authoritie to admitte ministers 196. c Bishops appointe their successours pag. 205 Bishops authoritie 297. c 408. Bishops called heades of the Churches 301 One ministerie of Bishops but diuerse degrees 320 A Byshop aboue a priest in Cyprians time 358 One Byshoppe in one Cittie 366. 444. Difference betwixte Byshoppe and Priest 383 Byshoppes in the Apostles tymes pag. 384. 470 Ieromes Byshoppe aboue an Elder in rule 385 Byshops gouernours simply not of one action onely 3 Byshoppes authoritie consisteth in offences 75 Byshop high priest 411. 470. 471. VVhat kinde of authoritie Byshops exercise 420 Byshoppes succede Apostles in gouernment 32 Comparison betwixte our Byshope and the olde Bishops 472 〈◊〉 Byshops alone excommunicate 6 6 c. Byshops may haue assistance in excommunication 673 Authoritie ascribed to Bishops in x communication not infinite but limited 6 8 Byshops gaue sentence in ciuill causes 773 ¶ A Bloudy assertion 150 ¶ Booke of common prayer Looke Communion Booke Booke of ordering Ministers iustifyed concerning examination pag. 134. 〈◊〉 42 The reasons of T. C. agaynste the Booke of ordering Ministers pag. 134. c ¶ Bodye what it signifieth in Caluine 46 Of these wordes The Body of ou e Lord Iesus Christ. c. 6 ¶ Bragges 58. 297 ¶ Bread in the Communion Looke Communion Bread ¶ Brethren may be punished 809 ¶ Bucer of things indifferēt 113. c. Bucers censure of the first Communion Booke 595 615 Bucer defaced by the Replyer 522 ¶ Burialls 727. c The place of Buriall 737 The dutie of the minister not hindred by burying the dead 730 A prayer at Buryall expounded pag. 729 The dead buryed by the minister with prayer 728 Buriall Sermons Looke funerall sermons C ¶ Caius Fimbria 7 8 ¶ Caluine acknowledgeth the names of Archbishop c. 417. c Caluine of thinges indifferente 109 c. Caluine alloweth Superioritie 390. 398. Diuerse editions of Caluines institutions 391. 50 Caluines opinion of Communion bread 592. c ¶ Canon law not altogether condemned 463 c ¶ Can is not taken for ought 778 ¶ Catechist and pastor differ 425 Catechi mes 152. c ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 69 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 69 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 280 ¶ Cathedrall Churches 742. c Cathedrall Churches before Antichristian Popes 747 A Colledge of Ministers in euery citie 747. Our Cathedrall Churches not much differing from those of old time pag. 747 The vse of Cathedrall Churches necessary 747 ¶ Cauilles 130. 352. 401. 506. 574. 585 628. ¶ A Caueat 448 A necessary caueat 481 ¶ Ceremonies of 2. sortes 80 How we haue but 2. ceremonies 119 Substantiall ceremonies 80 Accidentall ceremonies 80 Rules of ceremonies 86. 87 The controuersie about ceremonies confessed by T. C. 85. 86. 126 Euery church hath an order of ceremonies 707 How Ceremonies serue to edifying pag. 286. c. VVhy God appointed so many ceremonies to the Iewes 305 Disterence betwixt Popish ceremonies and oures 616 The ground of the Assertion about ceremonies vnanswered by T. C. pag. 94 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 158. c. 163 ¶ Children of Papists and excommu nicate persons may bee baptisedpag 621. c How children are said to beleue 608 ¶ Christ called Archbishop 300 Christ vsed vnleauened biead 593. c. ¶ Christian men sheepe but reasonable 172 The number of Christiās more now than in the Apostles times 175 ¶ Chrisostome an Archbishop 412. c. 472. Chris stome exerciseth Archiepiscopall iurisdiction in Asia 414 Chrisostome of distinctiō of degrees pag. 387 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 682 ¶ Church cannot be shut vp in one prouince now 465 The Church is reformed not transformed 474 To frame all churches after one is daungerous 481. 482 Church for the gouernours of the church 636. 66 No church maye challenge to bee a patterne necessarily to be followed 704 The church full of hypocrites 176 Some in the church and not of the church 179 No church established in the Apostles time how 180. 18 The church in persecution in Constantines time 188. 189 The Authoritie of the church in things indifferent 76. c. VVhat thinges are left to the order of the church 83. 88. c. 713. The
of men But why doe they condemne whole Churches for indifferent things whiche if they woulde obey S. Paule ought to apply them selues to the weakenesse of euery one Beza in an Epistle of his prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Heluetia Beza sayth That all rytes and ceremonyes are not to be receiued without exception which the Apostolike Church it selfe hath vsed eyther as profitable or necessarie for their tymes and in his booke called confessio Christ. fidei cap. 5. he writeth That one cause of Councels and Idem Synodes was to make rules of ecclesiasticall discipline and to appoint the gouernment of the Church according to the diuersitie of time place and persons For it is necessarie that in the house of the Lorde all things shoulde be done in order of the vvhich order there is one generall reason in the vvorde of God 1. Cor. 14. But not one and the same forme agreeing to all circumstances And againe in the same Chapter he sayth The rules or canons of rytes and Idem orders in the Church haue respect to comelynesse in externall things and therefore they be neither generall for the most parte nor perpetuall for that which is profitable in some place in other some places would rather hurt and moreouer the diuerse respectes of the time are such that the same thing which for good considerations was ordained must of necessitie sometime be abrogated whereof it comes to passe that there is not onely so great varietie in the olde canons but contrarietie also Againe in the same Chapter VVe must Idem not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in politia ecclesiastica in the gouernmente of the Church seyng there be most diuerse circumstances and therfore absque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without ☜ preposterous zeale all things can not in all places and times be reduced to one and the same forme c. In the confessiō of the Churches in Heluetia c. it is thus written Men shall easily Confess ecclesiarum Heluet. gather this also that we doe not by any wicked schisme seuer or cut off oure selues from Christes holy Churches of Germanie Fraunce England and other Christian nations but that we well agree with all and euery one of them in the truth of Christe which here we haue acknowledged For albeit there is some varietie in diuerse Churches aboute the vttering and setting forth of their doctrine and aboute rytes and ceremonyes which they receiue as a meane to edifie their Churches yet that varietie neuer semed to minister cause of dissention and schisme in the Church for in such matters the Churches of Christ haue alvvayes vsed their libertie as we may reade in the Ecclesiasticall history I omit here the confession of the Church of VVirtenberge and the testimonyes of sundry other notable learned men I knowe no learned writer that doth denye the Church to haue authoritie in appoynting rytes ceremonyes discipline and kinde of gouernment according to the place time persons and other circumstances thoughe the same be not expressed in the word of God so that it doe nothing repugnante to the same But what néede I labour so much in a matter confessed by him that would séeme to ouerthrowe it for if the Iewes had twentie things left to their order in the Churche for our Pag. 21. Sect. one as T. C. hath affirmed and yet this commaundement not broken Deu. 4. 12. Nihil addes verbo c then may the Church of Christ vse hir libertie in like maner wythout any breache of the same Wherefore to conclude I nowe referre it to the iudgement of the Reader whether if be true or not that I haue affyrmed against the Authors of the Admonition to wit that those things onely are not to be brought in or vsed in the Church which the Lord himselfe in his word hath commaunded but that of necessitie in externall things and outward gouernment the Churche hath authoritie to determine according to time place person c. though the same be not commaunded or expressed in Scripture so that it be not repugnant to the word Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 32. Sect. 1. 2. Pag. 33. Sect. 1. The other places noted in this margent as Psal. 37. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. Scriptures vnchristianly abused by the Admonition 2. and the rest are not alleaged to proue any thing in cōtrouersie but onely withoute iudgement placed in the margent to make a shewe how aptly they be applyed I leaue to the consideration of the diligent Reader This one thing I can not but maruell at that these fellowes so please themselues in the platforme of their Church and attribute so much thervnto that they exhorte nay rather charge the courte of Parliament with perfecte hatred to detest the present state of the Churche with singular loue to embrace that which they prescribe in this Booke and to moue them rather to this perfect hatred of vs and singular loue of themselues they vse the authoritie of the. 31. and 139. Psalme In the one Dauid sayth that he hath hated them that gyue themselues to deceitfull vanities bicause he trusteth in the Lorde In the other speaking of the contemners of God of wicked and bloudie men Marke this spirite and of such as blaspheme God and be his enemyes he sayth I hate them vvith an vnfained hatred c. As thoughe all suche as like or alowe of the presente state of the Churche of this Realme of England gaue them selues to deceitfull vanities were contemners of God wicked and bloudy men blasphemers of God and his enimyes I will not aggrauate this blasphemie of theirs let Prince Nobles and all other louers of God his worde consider diligently this spirite and in time preuent the burning malice of the same no Turke no Iewe no Papist coulde possibly haue spoken more spitefully of this Church and state but such is the spirite of arrogancie To the lyke effecte they alleage the. 15. of Iohn 1. Timo. 3. Math. 7. 11. as thoughe they onely had the word of God and were of the Churche and we contemners and reiecters of the same O where is humilitie Truely if these men be not by discipline brideled they wil worke more harme to this Church than euer the Papist dyd Io. Whitgifte To this there is not one word spoken Admonition May it therefore please your wisedomes to vnderstande we in Englande are so farre off from hauing a Church rightly reformed according to the prescript of Gods word that as yet we are not come to the outwarde face of the same For to speake of that wherein all consent and wherevpon all writers accorde The outwarde markes wherby a true Christian Church is knowne are preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline which consisteth in admonition and correcting of faultes seuerely Touching the first namely the ministerie of the worde althougher must be confessed that the substance
for it behoued the Apostles to be chosen immediatly of God In the election of Deacons Luke hath not set downe what the Church did obserue But in another place we may gather by Paule that they of Asia vsed the holding vp of hands which manner was vsuall with the most of the Graecians wherefore there is no cause why any man should ouercuriously prescribe here any certaine rule c. Now to reherse what varietie hath bin vsed in the Churches touching this election Uarietie vsed in the electiōs in y e pr tiue Churches Caluine were néedelesse it shall be sufficient only to set downe that which M. Caluine speaketh of it in his Insti cap. 8. Sect. 60. c. wher first he declareth that the rule of S. Paule touching the qualities of a minister is to be obserued and that he is to be examined according to the same Then doth he shew how that there hath not always one order bin obserued touching the electours and appointers for sometimes none was chosen without the consent of the whole people and other sometimes the people committed the choise to the Bishop and ministers or Seniors except it were in the election of the Bishop And sometimes onely the ministers did first choose and then offer those whome they had chosen to the magistrate or to the Senat or to the chiefe rulers who ratifyed the election if they liked it if not then did they choose out other c. This varietie of electing ministers doth M. Caluine declare in that place It appeareth in the. 35. or as some counteth 36. of the canons attributed to the Apostles Can. Apost 36 that Bishops were not then chosen by the consent of the people for that canon speaketh of such Byshops as being appoynted to some Church were not receyued by the people and yet remayned Bishops still To the like effect is the. 18. can Con. Ancyra Con Ancyr can 18. Con. Antioch can 17. 18. Con Laodic can 12. Can. 13. T. C. seeketh a commaundement in the Ceremoniall law for the election of the ministers of the Gospell The place Numbers 8. proueth not his purpose and the. 17. and. 18. of the Councell of Antioch In the. 12. Canon of the Councell of Laodicea it is decréed that the Metropolitane with other Byshops adioyning should haue the election of Byshops and of such as are to be preferred to a cure And the. 13. Can. of the same councell doth forbid that the elections of ministers should be committed to the people So that you sée your manner of electing by the people not to haue bin in all Churches in all purer times It appeareth that you were put to a pinch for a commaundement to establish your manner and kind of electing ministers when you are constrayned to fetch one out of the booke of Numbers and that nothing at all perteyning to your purpose For what one word is there in that place that hath any shadow of your election First the people there did not elect the Leuits Secondly they laid their hands vpon them which I am sure you will not haue the people to do in the ordeyning of Byshops for you say that only elders and ministers vsed to lay on their hands So that this place of the Booke of Numbers doth commaund that whiche you will not admitte and speaketh not one word of that for the which you do alledge it But tell me in good earnest will you bind vs to the obseruation of the Ceremonial law also as you haue done before to the iudiciall For what else is there in that whole chapter but lawes touching ceremonies and in that place by you alleadged especially for there he speaketh of the manner of purifying of the Leuites and of their offering he speaketh not of any election For God himselfe had chosen the Leuites before for the first borne of the children of Israell cap. 3. I would to God men would but indifferently consider how vndiscréetely you alleadge the scriptures lest you should séeme to be voyde of scripture You say the people by laying on their hands did by that ceremonie consecrate them Would you haue the people to consecrate ministers by laying on of hands do you not care what absurdities and contrarieties you speake you make a distinction in that whiche followeth betwixte ordeyning electing and you say that election perteyneth to the people ordeyning to the Bishop Pag. 40. lin vlt. c. Pag. 31. sect 4. And in another place that the imposition of handes was not by the Churche and people but by the Elders and Ministers But if this be a commaundement for vs now to obserue then must you recant that saying I doe admitte this Scripture as a portion of the Ceremoniall lawe but I doe not The dealings of T. C. tend to Iudaisme admit it as a perpetuall commaundement bicause I knowe the Ceremoniall lawe is abrogated excepte you will haue all those Ceremonies whiche were vsed in that place and are conteyned in the same commaundement as of sprinkling them with water of shauing their bodies of washing their clothes of laying their handes on the heads of bullocks c. practized in ordering ministers of the Gospel Neither is this any title of Catabaptistrie but yours smelleth of Iudaisme for you bounde vs before to the Iudiciall law and now you will bind vs to the Ceremoniall also what remayneth but to say that Christ is not yet come Circumcision is a figure of baptisme but the Leuiticall priesthoode is no figure of the ministerie of the Gospell therfore we may well proue the baptizing of Infantes by circumcision but we can not proue the ordering of ministers of the Gospell by the ceremonies vsed about the Leuites Those examples of the Apostles doe well proue the baptizing of children bicause Gene. 17. Mat. 28. they be grounded vpon these generall places of the Scriptures Ego sum Deus tuus c. I am thy God and the God of thy seede c. and Mat. 28. Baptizantes omnes gentes Baptizing all nations The contention is not whether discipline c. be necessarie but whether one kinde be necessarie Of discipline also and gouernment I haue something spoken before and minde to speake hereafter when further occasion is offered in this place it is answere sufficient to say that the contention is not whether discipline or gouernment be necessarie in the Churche or no but whether this or that kinde of discipline and gouernment be necessarie and whether there be one certayne kinde and forme of discipline and gouernment to be vsed in the Churche at all times and in all places As for Pastors Bishops Doctors Deacons c. they be necessarie ministers in the Churche but it doth not therfore follow that there must be alwayes one kinde and forme of gouernment Chap. 4. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Sect. 1. And I adde that howsoeuer in the Apostles time that kinde of electing and calling
Minister to be chosen without the consent of the Churche than in a Church béeing in prosperitie And surely it is euen lyke to your reasons in other matters for first that whiche you saye of the Churches rounde aboute for admonishing correcting or excommunicating that Churche that shall choose an vnméete minister is not to bée founde in all the Scripture either in commaundement or example and it is a méere deuise of your owne head Secondly it is moste vnlyke that the Church in the time of persecution should choose an vnméete or a wicked minister bycause those that be persecuted themselues be godly and well disposed and carefull to haue suche a one as they may safely committe themselues vnto For thoughe in the tyme of persecution there maye bée some hypocrites that will for a tyme ioyne themselues with the Godlie yet the moste parte doe of a conscience that whyche they doe else woulde they not endure persecution wherefore if euer the election of theyr minister may safely be committed vnto them it may then so be especially Lastely in the tyme of persecution they haue no Magistrate they be all equall neyther is one bounde to obey another by any ciuill lawe none hathe chiefe and speciall care ouer the rest as Magistrate to compell wherfore it can not be otherwyse then but that suche offices and functions should be chosen by a common consente neyther can there be therein in that tyme the halfe parte of inconuentences that are in the same in tyme of prosperitie as any man of any consideration may euidently perceyue Chap. 6. the seuenth Diuision T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 2. 3. Nowe I will shewe you * Where find you that I thinke so whiche thinke that the consent of the Churche in their minister can not stande with the time of a christian magistrate that it hath not onely stoode but hath bene confirmed in their tymes and by them In codice Iustiniani it is thus written following the doctrine of the holie Apostles (i) The words of this constitution are craftily suppressed c. we ordeyne that as often as it shall fall out that the ministers place shall be boyd in any citie that voyces be gyuen of the inhabiters of that citie that he of thrce which for their right faith holynesse of life and other good things are most approued should be chosen to the Bishoprike which is the most meete of them Also Carolus Magnus which was the first Germaine a He was Fran corum non Germanorum primus Imperator for Conradus his nephwe Otho did fyrst trāslate the empire from Fraunce to Germanie ▪ as some thynke Emperoure in 63. distinct sacrorum canonum saith being not ignorant of the holy Canons that the holy Church in y e name of God should vse hir honoure the freelyer we assent vnto y e ecclesiasticall order that the Byshops be chosen by election of the Cleargie and people according to the statutes of the canons of that diocesse In the. 63. distinction it appeareth that Ludouicus Carolus his sonne decreed that he shoulde be Byshop of Rome whome all the people of Rome should consent to choose Io. Whitgifte Where do I say that the consent of the Church in the choise of their minister cannot stande with the time of a Christian magistrate I haue said that howsoeuer in the Apostles time that kind of electing ministers was conueniente now in thys state of the Churche it were pernitious and hurtfull whiche to be moste true the differences of the times before by me alleadged do proue The ciuill magistrate may committe this election to such as he liketh best and may vse that maner and kind of choise which he thinketh to be most conuenient for that Church whereof The proofes of T. C. improue his purpose he hath the chiefe care next vnto God And these proofes that you here bring in to iustify your cause in my opinion do quite ouerthrow the same For it appeareth to haue bin in the power of Emperours and ciuill magistrates to appoynte the maner and forme of suche elections why else shoulde they haue néeded to make any lawes or constitutions for that matter It is true that Musculus Lo. com tit de magistra speaking of the ciuill Magistrate sayth Prudenter autem magna c. But he muste wisely and verie Muscul. warilye order the election of ministers seeking nothyng else but that the flock of the Lorde might be prouided for He shall choose not only suche men as are holie but such as are also able to teach He shal flee simonie more than a dog or snake But he shal vse that maner of election which may be most profitable for the Churches And for somuche as hee is not able of himselfe to doe all things which perteine herevnto he shall vse the helpe and aide of faithfull men and of those that feare God vppon whose shoulders he may laye the care or burthen whether they bee within the order of the ministerie of the woorde or of an other profession but notwithstanding in suche sorte that he him selfe doe know them whiche are chosen and if they seeme meete do by his authoritie and power confirme them But to come to your authorities The words that you do alleadge in codice Iustiniani T. C. subtilly concealeth the words of his author that make agaynst hym must somewhere else be sought for I thinke your authoure Illiricus is deceyued in quoting that place for surely I cannot vnderstand that they are to be founde in that booke But from what authoure soeuer they come you haue subtillie left out the words that expound his meaning and make directly against you Wherefore I will recite them worde for word as they are reported in Illiricus the authoure out of whome you haue borowed them Sequentes igitur doctrinam c. Folowing the doctrine of the holy Apostles in that that most pure and vncorrupt Priests ought to be chosen which are appoynted for that cause chiefly that by their prayers they might obtayne the fauoure of the most mercifull God towardes common wealthes we do decree by this present constitution that as often as it shall happen the roome of any priest to be voyde the inhabitants of the same citie shall giue their voyces of three which in true faith holynesse of life and in all other good things are approued and allowed of that of these he whiche shall be moste meete might be chosen Byshop The Emperoure saith that he followeth the doctrine of the Apostles in this that they prescribe what maner of men are to be chosen sci integerrimi incorruptissimi most pure and most vncorrupt not in the maner or kinde of electing as you would séeme to make the Reader beléeue in noting these words only folowing y e doctrine of the holy Apostles and leauing out that which foloweth declareth wherein he meant to folow their doctrine namely de eo quòd debeant eligi integerrimi in
sayth Vi enim eligendi pontificis potestatem ad se tunc rapiebant Romani For the Romaines then tooke by force vnto them selues power to choose their Bishop The second place of Platina argueth the vndiscretenesse of the people both in placing and displacing their Bishop and the authoritie of the Emperour in taking this authoritie of placing and displacing from them when they doe abuse it for here hée put out Benet whom they had chosen placed Leo whom they had displaced wherby it appeareth that there was not then any one suche prescripte forme of electing the Bishop of Rome but that it was in the authoritie of the Emperour to abrogate alter or chaunge it All this is nothing to the improuing of my assertion for I denie not but that the people had interest in elections of Bishops in diuers places and especially in the Church of Rome a long tyme But this dothe not proue that there is any prescript rule in Scripture for the election of ministers whiche maye not be altered and chaunged from tyme to tyme as shall be moste conuenient for the presente state of the Churche naye whatsoeuer ye haue hitherto sayde proueth the contrarie Platina doth not write that Otho coufessed that the election of the Byshop of 〈◊〉 did not perteyne vnto him you should haue a care to report the words of the author truly it is one thing to say that the election of the Byshop perteyneth to the Cleargie and people another thing to say that it perteyned not to him for it might perteine to them al. And the same Platina in the life of Io. 13. saithe that after Iohn was condemned by a councell and therefore fled away the Emperoure Otho at the request of the Cleargie did create Leo Byshop of Rome his words are these Hanc ob causam Otho persuadente Platina in 〈◊〉 ta Ioan ▪ 13 clero Leonem Romanum ciuem Lateranensis ecclesiae Scriniarium Pontificem creat For thys cause Otho by the perswasion of the Cleargie chooseth Leo a Citizen of Rome and keper of the monuments of the Church of Laterane to be Byshop He further in that place declareth how the people after the Emperours departure deposed Leo and placed Benet and how the Emperoure by force compelled them to place Leo agayne That Otho the Emperoure did take this graunt at the Byshops hands that the election of the Byshop should be in him and not in the people M. Bale testifyeth in manifest words in the life of Leo. 8. where he saith thus After he tooke from the Cleargie and people of Rome the power of choosing their Byshop whiche Carolus Magnus had gyuen Bale in vita Leon. 8. vnto them before and by a Synodall decree did commit the same to Otho the Emperoure for the auoyding of seditions whiche were wont to be in these elections and Otho receyuing this graunt thankfully that he mighte shewe himselfe agayne beneficiall towards the Sea of Rome restored all things which Constantine is feyned to haue giuen c. In the which words also it is to be noted y t this libertie of choosing their Byshop was granted vnto the people and Cleargie of Rome by Carolus Magnus the which not only M. Bale testifyeth in this place but M. Barnes also in these words Leo the. 8. vnderstanding the wickednesse of the Romaines in obtruding their friends to the Church by bribes threatnings and other wicked deuises did restore the interest of choosing the Byshop to Otho the Emperoure Whereof I also conclude that it is in the power of the ciuill magistrate to take order for elections of ministers and that the consent of the people is not of any necessitie required therevnto Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Page 36. Sect. 6. And if the Emperours permitted the election of the Byshop to that Citie where it made most for their suretie to haue one of their owne appoyntment as was Rome whiche with their Byshops did oftentimes put the good Emperoures to trouble it is to be thought that in other places both cities and townes they did not denie the elections of ministers to the people besides that certaine of those constitutions are not of Rome but of any citie whatsoeuer And these Emperours were and liued betwene 500. and odde yeares vntill the very poynte of a thousande yeares after Christ so that hitherto this libertie was not gone out of y e Church albeit the Pop which brought in all tyrannie and went about to take all libertie from the Churches was now on horse back and had placed himselfe in that Antichristian seate Io. Whitgifte In that the Emperours did but permitte such elections to the people it is manifest that the interest was in them else why should they be said to haue permitted it In déed true it is that the Emperours so long did remitte of their interest in suche elections that afterwards when they would haue claymed their right therein they coulde not obteyne it but by violence were shut from all as the histories manifestly deelare Hitherto you haue proued nothing in question neyther haue you reasoned ad I de m T. C. hath not reason ad idem for you shoulde either haue proued that the election of ministers dothe of necessitie perteyne to the people or that the same manner of electing is conueniente for thys Church of England in this time and state both which I haue improued and do still vtterly denie neyther dothe any thing that you haue alleadged proue eyther of them Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 45. Sect. 3. Therefore this diuersitie of the state of the Church requireth a diue s kinde of gouernmente and another kinde of ordeyning ministers For this cause in Concilio Laodicensi whiche was Anno. 334. it was Concil Laodic decreed that the election of ministers shoulde not be permitted to the people T. C. Page 37. Sect. 1. 2. Those that write the Centuries (a) This is vntrue as shall appeare suspect this canon and doubt whether it be a bastard or no considering the practise of the Church But heere or euer you were aware you haue striken at your selfe For before you sayd that this order of choosing the minister by voyces of the Church was (b) An vntruth for I said not so but in the Apostles time and during the time of persecution And the firste time you can alleadge this libertie to be taken away was in the. 334. yeare of our Lord which was at the least 31. yeares after that Constantine the great began to reygne I say at the least bycause there be good authors that say that this councell of Laodicea was holdē Anno. 338. after the death of Ioninian the Emperoure and so there is 35. yeares betweene the beginning of Constantines reygne and this councell Now I thinke you will not say that the Church was vnder (c) The Churche was vnder persecution in Constantines time by the space of 13. yeares for
the ministerie are to be admitted and ordeined I knowe not howe you could answere it for the wordes of the Canon admit that sense most properly That decrée of Vrban hath the same meaning and that which followeth of remayning continually in that Church in the which he is intituled doth but signifie that he must be assured of his lyuing whervnto he is intituled during his life for the same Canon doth permit one man to haue two Churches but yet that he ought not to be canonicus prebendarius but onely of one Church wherof he is intituled But I can not but marueile that you will vse the testimonie of this Councell of Pope Vrban which was holden at the least an 1090. after Christ euen in the most corrupte time when as Antichrist had fully possessed the sea of Rome in the which Councell among other things (a) Volater ▪ Bale he confirmed the actes of Pope Hildebrand against Henrie the Emperour This Vrban also was the confirmer of the superstitious orders of the (b) Platina in vita Vrb. 2. Cistercian friers and (c) Volateran Cent. II. ca. 10. Carthusian Monkes he likewise deposed (d) Distinct. 32 eos qui. Deacons that were maried from their orders And (e) Matth. p risi in vita VVilli 2. forbad by the Councell of the traiterous Archbishop Anselme that any Clearke should receiue beneficiorum inuestituram or any Ecclesiasticall dignitie of any Prince or lay man but (f) Cent. 4. onely of the Pope And that you may yet further vnderstand what a worthie patrone you haue gotten for your cause this Vrban was he that was author (g) P lid de inuent lib. 6. cap. 2. of the Canonicall houres commonly called our Ladies Psalter Certainly Hierome sayth no suche thing in that Epistle you are disposed to father that of him that he neuer spake ▪ His complaint was that much cost was bestowed vpon Churches in adorning and decking of them and little regarde to the choise of Ministers meaning that they had more care to haue gorgious Churches than good Ministers But what is this to your purpose Thus haue you proued neither by Scripture nor by Councell nor Doctor truely alleaged and vnderstanded that none maye preache vnlesse he haue some pastorall charge and I still affirme that you haue not one texte of Scripture soundyng that way where there are to the contrarie sundry examples as I haue alleaged Chap. 1. the. 9. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 77. Sect. 2. If you had vsed moe reasons I would haue answered them what certaine cure had Paule Barnabas Philip Epaphroditus Andronicus Iunius yet they were not of the twelue Apostles It is a straunge doctrine to teache that a man may not preache out of his owne cure It is more straunge to say that it is not lawfull for him to preache except he haue some pastorall cure beyng of him selfe able to liue and not minding to be burdensome to the Churche If you seeke for any text in the scripture to confirme this doctrine you can finde none if you seke for examples to the contrarie you shall finde plentie T. C. Pag. 44. Sect. 2. 3. 4. But you aske what place Paule and Barnabas had appoynted them What meane you therby to conclude that bycause Paule and Barnabas the Apostles had no place appoynted them therfore a Pastor or Bishop shoulde not when this is one difference betwene the Apostle and Byshop that the one hath no certaine place appoynted and the other hath But I thinke I smell out your meaning which is that we may make Apostles also at these dayes and that that function is not yet ceased for otherwise your reason is nothyng worthe Likewyse also you aske of Philip which was an Euangelist And so you thinke that these running Ministers are lawfull bycause they are Apostles and Euangelistes against which I shall haue occasion to speake shortly after in the. 50. Page But if a manne be able to liue of hym selfe and mynde not to be burdensome to the Churche it seemeth vnreasonable vnto you that he may not goe aboute and preache throughout all Churches Dyd you neuer reade any learned disputation and that of learned writers in our dayes aboute P. Marty vpon the 1. Cor. 9. thinketh it more expedient for one to take vvages of the Church although he be able to liue of him selfe this question whether although it be lawfull it be expedient that a man beyng able and willing to liue of him selfe ought to take wages of the Churche for inconueniences which mighte ensue of taking nothing I doe but aske you the question bycause you make so greate a wonder at thys for I will not take vpon me heere the defense of it bycause I will not multiple questions And why I praye you maye not that manne that is so able and will be content to liue of him selfe why I saye may not he teache and be the Pastor of some Churche Doe you thinke that for hys forbearing the wages of the Churche he may breake the (a) What lawes orders where are they establi shed lawes orders that God hath established Io. Whitgifte It is a good reason to proue that there may be preachers of the worde which haue no certaine cure and doth cleane ouerthrowe your former answere to the place Acto 1. for Paule and Barnabas were not chosen into any vacant place as Matthias was and therfore that reason is no reason I doe not say a Bishop or Pastor should not haue a place appointed vnto them for I know Bishops and Pastors haue their cures limited but this I saye that some may be preachers and Ministers of the worde which haue no certaine cure Neyther is this true that all suche as be admitted to the preaching of the word be either Bishops or Pastors Against Apostles and Euangelistes we shall vnderstande what you haue to saye when we come to that place You aske me whether I euer read any learned disputations c. I mighte aske you the same question for you vtter no great reading here only you alleage Peter Martyr vpon 1. Cor. 9. where he speaketh little of this matter For the question is not whether a man hauing a Pastorall cure and sufficient of his owne to lyue may cease to take th ordinarie stipend of his Church or no which is that that Peter Martyr handleth in that place and wherof he maketh this resolution that he should doe that therein that maye most profitte the Church and further the Gospell and yet to be most expedient to take the accustomed stipend although S. Ambrose Lib. 1. off cap. 36. and diuerse other be of the contrarie iudgement But this is our controuersie whether a man hauing sufficient to lyue of by him selfe may not be admitted to the preaching of the Gospell excepte he haue some Pastorall cure S. Paule in that Chapter gloryeth that he tooke nothing of the Corinthians Peter Martyr in the same place
into errour c. Here you do eyther ignorantly Difference betwixt a king and a tyrant or wilfully confounde Monarchiam with tyrannie For betwixt a king and a tyrant this is one difference that a king ruleth according to the lawes that are prescribed for him to rule by and according to equitie and reason a tyrant doth what him list followeth his owne affections contemneth lawes and sayth Sic volo sic iubeo stat pro ratione voluntas So I will so I commaund my pleasure standeth for reason Now therefore to vse those reasons to ouerthrow a lawful Monarchie which are onely proper to wicked tyrannie is eyther closely to accuse the gouernment of this Church of England of tyrannie or maliciously by subtile dealing and confounding of states to procure the The ecclesiasticall gouernment in this Church not tyrannicall but lawfull misliking of the same in the hearts of the subiects There is neyther Prince nor Prelate in this land that ruleth after their pleasure and lust but according to those lawes and orders that are appointed by the common consent of the whole realme in Parliament and by such lawes of this Monarchie as neuer hitherto any good subiect hath mislyked and therefore your grounde being false how can the rest of your building stand It hath bene sayd before that the Archbishop hath not this absolute authoritie giuen vnto him to doe all things alone or as him lust He is by lawe prescribed both what to doe and howe to procéede in his dooings Moreouer this Churche of Englande Gods name bée praysed therefore hath all poyntes of necessarie doctrine certainly determined Ceremonies and orders e presly prescribed from the whiche neyther Archbyshoppe nor Byshoppe maye swarue and according to the whiche they must bée directed to the obseruing of the whiche also their dutie is to constreyne all those that ée vnder them So that whosoeuer shall wilfully and s ubburnely seuer himselfe from obedience eyther to Archbyshoppe or Bishoppe in suche matters may iustly be called a Schismatike or a disturber of the Church And in this respect is that saying of Cyprian nowe most true For neyther doo Heresyes Li Epist. 3. aryse nor Schismes spring of any other thing but hereof that the Priest of God is not obeyed And so is this of Ieromes in like maner Ecclesiae salus in summi Sacerdotis pendet Contra Luciscrianos dignitate cui si non exors ab omnibus eminens detur potestas tot in Ecclesia efficiuntur schismata quot sacerdotes The safetie of the Churche dependeth vppon the dignitie of the highe Priest to whom vnlesse a singuler and peerelesse power be giuen there will be as manie schismes in the Church as there be Priests You say that it is harder to draw many into an error than one c. whiche is not true The gouernment of one by lawe more safe than of many without lawe when that one ruleth and gouerneth by lawe For the minde of man euen of the best may be ouerruled by affection but so cannot the lawe Wherefore a wicked man directed by lawe gouerneth more indifferently than multitudes withoute lawe bée they neuer so godly Moreouer one Godly wise and learned man is muche more hardly moued to any errour than is the multitude whiche naturally is prone and bent to the same in whome not onely Philosophers but singular Diuines also haue noted great inconstancie and a disposition moste vnméet to gouerne The s ilitude of water returned agaynst the Replier Your similitude of water holdeth not for a little water in a grauelly or stonie Well or Ryuer is not so soone troubled and corrupted as are multitudes of waters in Fennishe and Marrishe groundes Againe a little water in a running Ryuer or Fourde is at all tymes more pure and cleare than is a great quantitie in standing Puddelles to bée short is not the water of those little springs and Cundite heades which béeing safely locked vp and inclosed in stone and Leade do minister greate reléefe to whole Cities muche more pleasaunt hardlyer corrupted lesse troubled than the great waters in the Thames Therefore is a little water procéeding from a good Fountaine by stones and Leade kept from things that may hurt it hardlier putrifyed and corrupted than all the Fennishe waters in a whole Countrey than mightie Pooles yea than the Thames it selfe So is one wise and prudent man gouerned and directed by order and by lawe further from corruption and errour in gouernement than whole multitudes of people of what sorte soeuer they bée You further say that this Ecclesiasticall monarchie hath beene the cause of discorde c. I aunswere that it hath béene the cause of the contrarie vntill suche tyme as it was turned into tyrannie as by all Ecclesiasticall storyes and wryters it may appeare and namely by these two Cyprian and Ierome In all that decretall part 2. c. 9. quaest 3. noted in your Margent there is nothing The places c ed by T. C maketh for the Archbishop agaynste any forme of gouernment vsed by the Archbyshoppe in this Churche of Englande but in plaine and manifest wordes bothe the name and office of the Archebishoppe is there mainteyned and approoued And I wishe that the learned Reader woulde peruse ouer all that parte of Gratian then shoulde he easily perceyue your faythfulnesse in alledging Authorities And thoughe it be somewhat tedious yet that the vnlearned also may haue some taste of your dealing I will sette downe some Canons conteyned in that parte of Gratian. Out of the Councell of Pope Martine hée cyteth this Canon Per singulas prouincias oportet Episcopos cognoscere c. In euerie Prouince the Bishoppes must knowe theyr Metropolitane to haue the cheefe authoritie and that they ought to doe nothing withoute him according to the olde and auncient Canons of oure forefathers for the whiche cause also the Metropolitane muste take vppon him nothing presumptuously without the councell of other Bishoppes And out of the councell of Antioch he hath this Per singulas prouincias Episcopos singulos scire oportet c. In euery prouince the Bishops must know their Metropolitane which gouerneth to haue the chiefe care of the whole prouince and therefore those that haue any causes must resort to the Metropolitane citie c. In all the rest of the Canons he manifestly attributeth superioritie and gouernment to the Archbishop and Metropolitane euen the same that we do in this Church only he denieth that the Metropolitane or Archbyshop hath such absolute authoritie that he can deale any thing in criminall causes agaynst a Byshop or in other common matters without the consent of other Bishops which is not agaynst any thing by me affirmed or contrary to any authoritie claymed by the Archbishop for it hath bene from the beginning denied that the Archbishop of his own absolute authoritie can determine any thing in matters doubtfull and not determined by the lawes and orders of this
〈◊〉 and of other Byshoppes sayeth that they were assembled oute at Aquileia by the commaundemente of the Emperoure The same dothe Hierome testifye concernyng a Councell holden at Rome In Epita Pauli Pope Iulio Epist. 9. ad Theodos. desyreth the Emperoure that by his authoritie there myghte be a Councell in Italye Zozomen libr. 6. cap. 7. sheweth howe certayne Catholyke Bishoppes intreated the Emperoure that they myght haue leaue to gather together for the redressing of certaine erroures But hat shall I neede to labour in a matter moste manifest No man can be ignorant that readeth Ecclesiasticall stories but that the Emperoures authoritie was r quired in summoning Councels and Synodes not only generall but prouinciall also Secondly it is vntrue that the Metropolitane in this Churche dothe not call Synodes or propoundeth not the matters in them c. For he dothe bothe althoughe he calleth no Prouinciall Synode withoute the commaund ment of the Prince no more than other Metropolitanes haue oone in the beste tyme of the Churche vnder christ an Princes Laste of all thoughe all thys were true that is éere vntruely affirmed yet were the office of an Archebishoppe necessarie for it dothe not onely consiste in calling Synodes but in sundrye thinges besyde as I haue shewed before and this councell of Antioche manyfestly declareth And surely yf you would proue any thyng hereof directely it s ould bée thys that eyth r the Archebishoppe dothe not exercyse that iurisdiction whyche he oughte to doe or else can not doe that whiche perteyneth to his office and so shoulde you speake for the amendement of the Archbishops iurisdiction Agayne you saye an other cause appeareth there whyche was to see that the Bishops kepte themselues within theyr owne diocesse c. but fyrst thys may be doone without an Archbishoppe c. I tell you there is no suche thyng in that nynthe Canon I say further that it maye beste an mos e orderly bée doone by an Archebis oppe Thirdely I answere as before that it is but one parte of his office Fourthely I saye vnto you that this is a symple Argumente the Archebishoppe dothe not kéepe suche olde Canons as bée not in vse in thys Churche therefore there is no neede of his office Laste of all you oughte to knowe that th se whom y u call wandering ministers be fai hefull Preachers a number of them And suche as laboure diligentely in preachyng the woorde and haue not a little profyted the flocke of Chryste so that youre conclusion is not woor h a strawe Chap. 5. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 1. Agayne the cause why the Metropolitane differed from the reste and why the callyng of the Synode was gyuen to him as it appeareth in the same Councell was for that the Chap. 9. greatest concour e was to that place and moste assemblie of menne wherevnto also may be added for that there was the best commoditie of lodgyng and of vittayling and for that as it appeareth in other Councells it was the place and feare of the Empire But with vs neyther the greatest conc urse nor assemblie of men nor the greatest commoditie of lodgyng and vittayi g neyther yet the seate of the kingdome is in the Metropolitane citie therefore with vs there is no suche cause of a Metropolitane or Archebishop Io. Whitgifte This is not alleadged as a cause why there shoulde be a Metropolitane or why he differed from y e rest or why the calling of the Synode was giuen vnto hym but rather why he was placed in the chiefe citie so that these wordes touche not the Metropolitane or his office but the aptnesse of the place where he shoulde continue And yet if credite be to be giuen yther to interpreters or to the glosse in Gratian caus 9. quae 3. per singulas the wordes be not as you interprete them for thus they be set downe in the booke of Councels Tom. 1. Pr pter quod ad Metropolim omnes vndique qui negoti videntur habere concurrant For the which let all that haue any businesse haue recourse from all places into the Metropolitane citie An other ranslation is thus Propter quod ad Metropolitanam ciuitatem ab his qui causas habent con urratur And this last interpretation the authors of the Centuries do vse Cent. 4. Of whiche wordes there can be no suche thing gathered as you doe imagine but farre otherwise And the meaning of the Councell is that suche as haue causes to be heard may resort to the Metropolitane citie where the Metropolitane is And you must vnderstand that it was in the power of the Emperour and other Princes to appoint the seat of the Metropolitan where it pleased them as it appereth in the. 12. cap. of the Councel of Chalcedon and in the. 17. Hom. of Chrysostome Ad populum Antiochenum Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 2. In the Councel of Carthage holden in Cyprians tyme it appeareth that no Bishoppe had authoritie ouer an other to compell an other or to condemne an other but euery Bishop was left at his owne libertie to answere vnto God and to make his accounte vnto Christe and if anye thing were doone against any Bishoppe it was done by the consent of all the bishoppes in the prouince or as many as coulde conuemently assemble Therefore Cyprian whiche was the Metropolitane bishop had then no authoritie ouer the rest and yet then there being no christian magistrate T C con esseth Cyprian to be a Metropolitane whych would punishe the disorders whiche were committed of the christian bishops there was greatest neede that there shoulde haue bene some one which myght haue had the correction of the reste If therefore when there was most nede of this absolute authoritie there neither was nor might be any suche it foloweth that nowe we haue a Christian magistrate which may and ought to punyshe the disorders of the Ecclesiasticall persons and may and ought to call them to account for their faultes that there shoulde be no suche nede of an Archbishop Io. Whitgifte You here fall into the same faulte that a little before you ascribed to me for you come backe from the Councell of Antioche whiche was Anno. 360. to the Councell of Carthage being Anno. 260. I omitte to tell you that that Councell concluded an heresie for the whiche only it was assembled And therefore though it be in the booke of the Councells yet is it not reckened among the Councels Only I demaund the woordes of that Councell that doe signifie one Bishoppe not to haue had authoritie ouer an other I tolde you before out of Cyprian himselfe and out of Gregorie Nazianzene that he had ample and large iurisdiction The wordes of Cyprian in that Councell whiche séeme to touche the matter you talke of I haue expounded and answered before they make not for your purpose It is no reason to proue that a Bishop muste not be subiecte to
anye bycause he is lefte at his owne libertie to answere to God and to make his accompte vnto Christe For by the same reason he myghte be exempled from the authoritie of the Ciuill Magistrate and from all Lawes and orders touching Churche matters and so myghte euery priuate man in lyke manner But you muste remember that a Bishoppe is so lefte to his owne libertie to answere vnto God and make accompte vnto Chryste that hée muste also acknowledge his duetie towardes man and be subiecte to orders and lawes What do you saye for the fréedome of a Bishop from obedience vnto the Archebishop but it may be sayde lykewyse of his fréedome from subiection to his Prince in lyke matters and of euery Anabaptist for his deliuerance from subiection to all superiours ▪ Wherfore you wring Cyprians wordes to an euill sense You haue bin oft tolde that no Archbyshop hath such power ouer either Byshop or inferioure minister that of his owne authoritie he can do any thing againste them The lawes of the realme will not suffer it no the Canon law dothe by no meanes permit it And therefore you do but dreame of an authoritie that is not Cyprian being a Metropolitane had authoritie ouer the rest The ciuill Magistrate doth gouerne the ecclesiasticall state punisheth disorders among them calleth them to accompt for their faults by Archbyshops Byshops and other officers as he doth the same in the ciuil state by ciuill magistrates Your meaning is not I dare say to haue the Prince heare al matters hir selfe You wil giue hir leaue to appoint vnder officers as Moses Dauid Solomon Iehosaphat other good kings haue done If you will not allow the Magistrate so to do let vs vnderstand your reasons for surely I beléeue there is some such toy in your head Chap. 5. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 3. The moderation of their authoritie in the aunciēt times may appeare first by a canon which is falsely giuen to the Apostles being as it is like a canon of the councell of Antioch (*) This canon is 〈◊〉 both by adding and 〈◊〉 whe in although 34. Canon it ordeyneth one Primate in euery nation ouer the rest and will not suffer any great matter to be done without him as also will not suffer him to do any thing without the rest yet euery Byshop might do that which apperteyned vnto his owne parrish without him (a) This you add vnto the canon and he nothing to do with him in it But as it seemeth the meaning of the canon was that if there were any waightie matter to be cōcluded for all the Churches in the nation then the byshops of euery parish should not enterprise any thing without calling him to councell Now we see that the Archbyshop medleth with that which euery Byshop doth in his owne dioces and hath his visitations for that purpose and will take any matter out of their hands concludeth also of diuers matters neuer making the Byshops once priuie to his doings Io. Whitgifte If it be a false canon or falsely gyuen to the Apostles why do you vse it as a proofe I might ay vnto you as you said before vnto me haue you such penurie of proofes that you are constrayned to alleadge false canons if it be a canon of the Councell of Antioch shew what canon it is if it be within that Councel vndoutedly it is the. 9. canon before by you alledged and how muche that proues your cause the very ignorant reader may iudge But let vs heare this canon be it true or false and consider your collections of it The canon alledged against himselfe the wordes I haue recited before but I will set them downe againe that your pythy reasons reasoning altogyther against your selfe may appeare The Byshops of euery nation or countrie must know who amongst them is chiefe whome they ought to esteeme Can. Apost 34. as their head and do nothing without his councell besides those things only which belong vnto their owne parish and the places which are vnder it neyther ought he to do any thing without the aduise of them all for so shal there be concord and God shall be glorifyed by Christ Iesus in the holy Ghost c. Here first ther must be a Primate or chiefe Byshop that is Archbyshop of euery nation or countrie whome the rest of the byshops must acknowledge as it were for their head Secondly the Byshops must do nothing vnaccustomed without him Thirdly that the other Byshops may do those things only quae ad parochiam eius regiones ei subditas pertinent VVhich perteine vnto his parish and places subiect vnto it which last words you leaue out Last of all that thys Primate must do nothing without their consents what hath the Archbishop lost by this canon surely not one iote I think verily he doth not require so much ▪ Euery byshop may do as much in his owne dioces now the authoritie of the Prince and hir lawes reserued as he might do by that canon for the Archbyshop dothe not rule by will but by law not of himselfe but vnder the Prince to whome both he and all other byshops be subiect You hit nothing lesse than the meaning of the canon nay vndoutedly you imagine a sense contrary to the expresse words of the canon When the Archbyshop dothe visite it is not to make newe lawes or appointe newe orders excepte he be commaunded so to doe by greater authoritie but to see those orders and lawes kepte that all Bishoppes and other are bounde vnto and therefore he doth nothing in their diocesse contrary to that which they are bound to do neyther doth he cōclude any thing without them which by their consent and authoritie of the law and Prince is not giuen vnto him Chap. 5. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 4. Higinus or as some thinke Pelagius I speake here as Platina reporteth not thinking that Platina cap Higin in Higinus time ther was any Metropolitane ordeyned that no Metropolitane should cōdemne any Byshop vnlesse the matter wer first both heard and discussed by the byshops of that prouince at what time and after a greate while a byshop was the (*) A grosse petitio of the principle or rather an vntruth same we call a minister Nowe the Archbyshop will without any further assistance or discussion by others suspend him and in the end also throw him out of his charge and if he haue the same authoritie ouer a byshop as a byshop ouer the minister as it is said he may do the like vnto him also Io. Whitgifte This is another forged witnesse such sound proofes the man hath that reprooues other men for the like and yet God knoweth his witnesse maketh nothing for him For who giueth authoritie to the Archbyshop to depriue eyther Byshop or inferiour minister without due proofe and examination of the cause touching consente of other if he deale with him according to
law then dealeth he with the consent not of the other Byshops only but of all the realme bycause that which is done by law is done by the consent of all that consented either to the confirming or making of that law Your glaunces by the way that there was then no Metropolitane that then the same were byshops which we now cal ministers bycause they be but barely affirmed it shal be sufficient as flatly to denie them and for proofe thereof to referre the Reader vnto that which hath bin spoken before Chap. 5. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 95. Sect. 5. The councell of Antioch ordeyned that if the voyces of the byshops were euen and that if Can. 17. No such thing in the. 17. canon halfe did condemne him and halfe cleare him that then the Metropolitane byshop should call of the next prouince some other byshops which should make an end of the controuersie whereby appeareth that the Metropolitane had so small authoritie and power ouer and aboue the rest that he had not so much as the casting voyce when both sides were euen And therefore it appeareth that besides the names of Metropolitane there was little or no resemblance betweene those that were then and those which be now Io. Whitgifte You haue written in the margent the. 17. canon of that councell in the which ther are no suche words nor any thing tending to that purpose it is the. 14. canon that I think you meane for in that canō it is thus determined that if a Byshop be iudged for Con. Antio ca. 14. certaine crimes and it happen that the other byshops of the same prouince varie in iudgement some thinking him to be innocent some guiltie for the resoluing of all doubte it pleased the holy Synode that the Metropolitane byshop shal call for other iudges out of the next prouince to end the cōtrouersie who togyther with the Byshops of the same prouince shall approue that which is iust and right Here is no mention of equalitie in voyces but only of disagréeing in iudgemēt among the Byshops of the same prouince Likewise in this canon it appeareth that a Metropolitane had authoritie ouer moe prouinces than one for he might cal the Byshops of another prouince to decide the matter if the Byshops of the same prouince could not agrée I sée not how this canon can any thing help you for now neyther the Metropolitane The authoritie of Archbyshops and byshops lesse than in times past nor all the Byshops in the prouince can depriue any Byshop without the consent of y e Prince so that in that poynt the authoritie of the Metropolitane is nothing encreased nor yet the authoritie of the Byshops For then as it appeareth in the ▪ 〈◊〉 canon of that councell if a Priest or a Deacon had bin condemned of his owne byshop o a byshop of a Synode it was not lawfull for them to complaine to the Emperoure if they Can. 12. had complayned it was determined in the same canon that they should neuer be pardoned nor haue any place of satisfaction nor hope of restitution But now it is farre otherwise The. 11. canon of the same councell is much to the same effect Wherefore the Can. 11. authoritie of the Metropolitane other Byshops is not encreased as you presēd but both the Metropolitane and other Byshops had asmuch authoritie then ouer other priests ministers and deacons as they haue now as appeareth by sundry canons of the same councell In the. 4. canon it is decréede that if a Byshop condemned by a Synode or a priest or Canon 4. a Deacon condemned by his owne Byshop shal take vpon him to exercise any mini terie he shall be without all hope of restitution and who soeuer doth communicate with hym shall be excommunicated In the. 5 canon it is thus determined If any priest or deacon Canon 5. contemning his proper Bishop hath separated himselfe from the Churche and gathering people apart hath erected an altar and hathe not obeyed the admonition of his Bishop neyther hath consented and agreed vnto him calling him backe diuers times let this man be condemned and deposed by all meanes and let him not obteyne any remedie afterward bycause he cannot receiue againe his dignitie But if he persist to trouble the Churche let him be corrected by the outward power as a seditious person By these canons it is euident that the Bishop of euery seuerall diocesse had authoritie by himselfe to excommunicate to depriue and to seclude from the ministerie any priest deacon or any other of the cleargie in more ample and large manner than he hath at this day The which thing also may be séene in the. 6. 12. canons of the same Councell so that you haue sought for help at the Councell whiche is one of the greatest enimies to thys your assertion and doth flatly condemne it Diuers canons of the which Councell if they were practised woulde soone remedie the sects and schismes whiche you haue stirred Chap. 5. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. vlt. Now to consider how the Byshops which are now differ from the Byshops which were in times past I must cal to thy remembrance gentle reader that which I haue spokē before which was that then there was as appeareth out of Cyprian and Ierome and others one Byshop in euery Many vntruthes heaped togither parish or congregation now one is ouer a thousand then euery Byshop had a seueral Church where he preached and ministred the sacraments now he hath none then he ruled that one Church as I shewed out of Ierome in cōmon with the elders of the same nowe he ruleth a thousand by himselfe shutting out the ministers to whome the rule and gouernment belongeth then he ordeyned not any minister of the Church except he were first chosen by the presbyterie and approued by the people of that place wherevnto he was ordeyned now he ordeyneth where there is no place voyde and of his priuate authoritie without eyther choyse or approbation of presbyterie or people Then he excommunicated not nor receyued the excommunicated but by sentences of the eldership and consent of the people as shall appeare afterward now he doth both And thus you see that contrary to the word of God he hath gotten into his owne hand and pulled to himselfe both the preheminēce of the other ministers and the liberties of the Church which God by his word had giuen Io. Whitgifte There is scarse one worde of all this true and surely I muche maruell that you dare be so bolde so manifestlie to speake against your owne conscience knowledge I haue before sufficiently proued all that is here by you auouched to be cleane contrary for the most part It shall be therefore sufficient as briefly now to answer as you do propound Demetrius was Byshop of all the dioces in Egypt and Alexandria Euse. li. 6. cap. 1 Cypr. li. 4. ep 8 Chrisostome
Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 1. Cyprian was Byshop of Carthage Numidia Mauritania Cyprian lib. 4. epist. 8. Timothie being Byshop had the gouernment almost of the whole countrie of Asia as Chrysostome declareth vpon the. 1. Tim. 5. and. 2. Tim. 4. Titus was Byshop of y e whole I le of Creta as the same Chrysost. testifyeth ad Tit. 1. I aue before by sundry Idem examples and testimonies by diuers councels and especially the councell of Nice 〈◊〉 the vanitie vntruth of this that is here affirmed that is that there was one Byshop in euery parish and congregation and the words of Cyprian and Ierome be cleane rary for they both make a difference betwene a Byshop to whome the gouernment of many pastors is committed and a pastor that hath but one seuerall flocke or charge For further vnderstanding whereof I referre y e Reader to that which is spoken before The byshops haue now as seuerall churches to preache and minister the sacraments in as they had then They haue no more authoritie in gouernment now than they had at that time nor so much and yet if they had more authoritie than they eyther haue now or had then I thinke it were more for the commoditie of the Church the state of the time and conditions of men considered As for ruling euery seuerall churche by those whiche you call Elders you haue shewed no such thing out of Ierome neyther can you For Ierome in that place you meane by presbyteri meaneth Priests as he dothe in all other places that I remember Neyther doth he there speake of particular parishes Touching the electing and ordeyning of ministers sufficient hath bin spoken before Tract 3. The Byshop doth nothing therein but that which he may iustly by the word of God and testimonie of the best and most worthy writers Of excommunication we shall speake hereafter you do glance at it now out of Tract 18. place And thus he that is an indifferēt Reader may vnderstand that the Byshops in these days in this Church of England haue no other authoritie than the word of God doth giue vnto them The Byshops of the primitiue Church haue pract sed y e libertie of the Church wel beareth and the state of the time and condition of men requireth Chap. 5. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Lin. 7. And as for the offices wherein there is any laboure or trauayle those they haue turned vnto the other ministers as for example in tunes past (*) A worthy councell it was not lawfull for him that was then an Hispal con ca. elder to preach or minister the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop bycause the Byshop himselfe should do it and now those which they call elders may preach and minister the sacraments by the Byshops good licence although he be present Io. Whitgifte There is no iust cause of complaint for most of the Byshops in that behalfe For I thinke the time hath not bin wherein there were moe preaching Byshops than are at this day in this Church But do you thinke that a minister may not preach or minister the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop Or do you so well allow of A corrupt councell alledged that Councell and canon quoted in your margent It was the second councell called Hispalense concilium it was not generall but prouinciall celebrated Anno. Dom. 659. the contents of the canon by you alledged are these That a Priest may not cōsecrate alters but only the Byshop that a Priest and Chorepiscopi may not consecrate virgines erect altars Hisp. Con. 2. Can. 7. blesse and anoynt them hallow churches make holy oyle and such like but only the Byshop Likewise that no priest may baptise say Masse ▪ teach the people or blesse them in the presence of the Byshop Surely this is a worthy Councel and a notable canon especially for you to alledge that haue so depraued other worthy writers for some imperfections founde in them But what doth it make for your purpose They might both preach and minister The councell alledged against himself the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop if he willed them and so is the canon This law was made for the encreasing of the Byshops pompe and dignitie for no man might presume to speake or do any thing in their presence without their leaue and licence so were they estéemed thē and such authoritie had they But if our Byshops should clayme the like you would say that it were an vntollerable arrogancie and pride I would to God all those that be deluded by you would consider your allegations and the grounds of your proofes Surely I woulde be loth to alledge any Councell of that time to proue any thing in controuersie Much more loth would I be to 〈◊〉 so corrupt a canon but lothest of all to alledge that which should be so flat against 〈◊〉 cause proue the cleane cōtrary to that which I affirme as this doth in your 〈◊〉 ▪ And here I haue one thing to tell you y t diuers of those things wherin you 〈◊〉 T. C. chargeth the office with the fault of the men make this difference betwixt our Byshops and those of the primitiue church if t ey were true yet wer they no saults in the office but in the men as for example thys which you here set downe Will you make a differēce in the offices of our Byshops and those of olde time bycause some of them do not preach This compareth the mē togither not the offices except you proue that it is forbidden or vnlawfull for one of our Byshops to preach There are other such like which I omitte Chap. 5. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 1. Now if you wil also consider how much the Lord ship pompe and statelinesse of the Byshops in our days differ from the simplicitie of them in times past ▪ I will giue you also a taste therof if first of all I shew the beginning or as it were the fountaine where vpon the pompe grew which Marke how this is proued was when in stead of hauing a Byshop in euery parishe and congregation they began to make a Byshop of a whole dioces and of a thousand congregations Io. Whitgifte If the pompe began as you say then began it in the Apostles time for then began they to make one Byshop ouer a whole diocesse as Timothie almost ouer all Asia and Titus ouer all Creta as I haue declared Which order hath bin from that day to this obserued throughout all Christendome as it may appeare by that which is already said Chap. 5. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. In an epistle of Zacharie vnto (*) It is an epistle o Pope Zacharie to Boniface not of Zacharie to Pope Boniface Pope Boniface it is thus written it hath bin oftētimes decreede Concil to 3 epist. Zacha Papae ad Bonifac. y t there should not be
a Bishop apointed in euery village ▪ or little citie least they should waxe vile (a) An vntruth as will appeare through the multitude wherby it both appeareth that ther was wont to be a Byshop in euery parish and vpon how corrupt and euill consideration one Byshop was set ouer a whole diocesse No doubt those that were authors of this had learned to well our olde prouerb the fewer the better cheare but the more Byshops the merier it had bin with Gods people Io. Whitgifte This epistle was writtē by Pope Zacharie to one Boniface which was Byshop in France and not to Pope Boniface moreouer it is in the. 2. tome of Councels and you haue quoted in your margent the third But to the matter You haue not one word in that epistle to proue that there was wont at any time The Epistle of Pope Zacharie falsified to be in euery parish a Byshop And you haue falsely alleadged the words of the epistle for these words least they should waxe vile through the multitude are not ther to be found The words of the Epistle be there For you must remember what we are commaunded by the olde canons to obserue that we ought not to ordein Bishops in villages and smal cities least the name of a Byshop should waxe vile What one word is there here of placing Byshops in euery parish Zacharie telleth Boniface that it is according to the olde canons that Byshops should not be placed in such smal cities but in more ample and large cities bycause the contemptiblenesse of the place dothe oftentimes bring contempt to the person and a Byshop ought to be estéemed and reuerenced If you had red the epistle you should haue perceiued that this Boniface had lately conuerted to christianitie interiorem Germaniam and that he had ordeyned amōg them certaine Byshops to gouerne them whome he desired Pope Zacharie by his authoritie to confirme to whome Pope Zacharie answering willeth him to consider whether the places be so conuenient or the number of the people so great vt Episcopos habere mereantur Meminerimus enim saith he quid in sacris canonibus c. as I haue rehearsed them befor ▪ And a little after he nameth the places where he will haue the byshops seates 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that there is nothing lesse ment than that there was in euery parish a Bishop 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 much as there was there before no Byshop in any parish but this is all that may be gathered that the seates of Byshops were by the olde canons apointed to be in the best cities and most famous places which to be true you may soone perceiue in those canons themselues mētioned here by Zacharie they are to be found dist 80. Chap. 5. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. And they might with as good reason hinder the sunne from shining in all places and the raine 〈◊〉 falling vpon al grounds for feare they should not be set by being common as to bring in such a wicked decree whereby vnder pretēce of deliuering the Byshop from contempt they sought nothing else but an ambitious and stately Lordship ouer those whiche had not that title of Byshop that they had although they did the office of a Byshop better than they did And what intollerable presumptiō is this to chaunge the institution of God as though he (*) When or where did God ordeyne this which ordeyned not one only but some number more or lesse of Byshops in euery Church did not sufficiently foresee that the multitude and plentie of Byshops could breede no contempt of the office And it may be as well ordeyned that the children of poore men shoulde not call them that begar them fathers and mothers but only the children of the rich and of the noble least that if euery man that hath children shoulde be called a father fathers should be set nothing by Io. Whitgifte It is a maruellous matter that you delight to runne so fast vpon a false string I tell you once agayne that you neuer red that Epistle neyther yet those canons that it speaketh of If you had red them you would neuer haue affirmed if there be any modestie left in you that the multitude of Byshops is alledged there as a cause of contempte no such thing being mentioned The canons haue a very good consideration and be not wicked but wise and godly This superioritie of Byshops is Gods owne institution and it hath a necessary vse in the Church of God as is shewed before It hathe bin and may be abused and it is and may be well vsed All these glorious words of yours are but very wordes and therefore as words I will committe them to the winde This one thing I cannot let passe that you say God ordeyned not one onely but some But one Bishop in a citie number moe or lesse of Byshops in euery Church What scripture haue you to proue that there should be more Byshops than one in one Church What one example in al the primitiue Church haue you to warrant this your assertion Nay you haue the whole practise of the Church to the contrary euen from the beginning Iames alone was Byshop of Ierusalem Timothie of Ephesus Titus of Creta Clemens of Rome c. and it hath bin always compted as monstrous to haue two Byshops of one citie as to haue two heads of one body But such bolde assertions without proofe are méete principles for such a ruinous and totering platforme as you dreame of Chap. 5. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. And here let vs obserue by what degrees and stayers Sathan lifted the child of perdition vnto that proud title of vniuersall Byshop First (*) In what place of scripture ▪ where the Lord did ordeyne that there shoulde be diuers pastors elders or Byshops in euery congregation (a) Is not this soundly proued ▪ Sathan wrought first that there should be but one in euery Church this was no doubt the first steppe Afterwards he pushed further and stirred vp diuers not to content themselues to be Byshops of one Church but to desire to be Byshops of a dioces wherevnto although it seemeth that ther was resistance in that it is sayd that it was decreede often yet in the end this wicked attempt preuayled and this was another steppe then were there Archbyshops of whole prouinces whiche was the thirde stayer vnto the seate of Antichrist Afterwards they were patriarches of one of the fower corners of the whole world the whole Church being assigned to the iurisdiction of fower that is to say of the Romaine Constantinopolitane Antiochene and Alexandrine Byshops and these fower stayers being layde of Sathan there was but an easie stride for the Byshop of Rome into that chaire of pestilence wherein he now sitteth Io. Whitgifte All this is as coldely proued as it is boldely affirmed for here is neyther scripture doctor story Councell or any thing else but ipse dixit How proue
impossible one thyng should be more impossible than another If I shoulde thus reason I thynke I should put you to some payne But I wyll not drawe the reader to suche thorny and subtyll questions it is inough for vs that the one and the other be impossible although one should be more impossible than the other And that it is impossible for one man to be Bishop ouer a whole prouince or ouer a whole Dioces I leaue it to be considered of that whych is before sayde in the description of the offyce of a Byshop pastor or minister where I speake of the necessitie of the residence of the Bishop in hys Churche Io. Whitgifte In so saying I say but as other learned men haue sayd and especially M. Caluine in the place afterwarde alleaged in my answere and as the practise of the Churche hath béene in the best state and vnder the best Bishops as it may appeare by that which hath béene hitherto spoken Your Philosophicall argument is sone answered without any great payne For to gouerne one Prouince in that maner and forme that is required of an Archbishop is neyther infinite nor impossible But it is great lack of iudgement to thinke that bicause one man can not well gouerne the whole world therfore he can not well gouerne a prouince or dioces I haue shewed the practise of the Churche to be contrarie in the Apostles tyme and since their time Chap. 6. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Page 101. Sect. 1. As a Prince may rule a whole Realme suche as Fraunce or Englande (*) This is absurdissimum a M. Caluine 〈◊〉 Instit. cap. 8. sect 92. so may he rule the whole worlde by officers and Magistrates appoynted vnderneathe him And there haue beene diu rs Princes which haue had as many landes vnder their power as the Pope hath had Churches and althoughe it be somewhat inconuenient yet I knowe not why they mighte not so haue comming lawfully by them Nowe I woulde gladly heare whether you would say the same of a Bishop and if you dare not then why doe you bring the similitude of the gouernment of a prince ouer a lande to proue that a Archbishop may be ouer an whole prouince M. Doctor dare boldly say that there may be one Bishop ouer a whole prouince but he dare not saye that there may be a bishop ouer the whole Churche But what better warrant for the one than for the other Agayne (a) If the skye fall c. if the whole Churche be in one prouince or in one realme whiche hathe beene and is (b) Yes surely as the state is nowe not impossible to be agayne if there may be nowe one bishop ouer a realme or prouince then there may be one bishop ouer all the Churche so that in trauelling with an Archbishop he hathe brought foorth a Pope Io. Whitgifte The selfe same reason you had before and I answere it nowe as I did then The Supra cap. 3. diuis 31. 32. 33. causes by me there alleaged be sufficient to proue the difference betwixt the gouernment of a Prince and the gouernment of a Bishop And yet no man will denie but that one Prince shall better be able to gouerne one kingdome than the whole world And to affirme that the whole worlde may be conteyned in one Monarchie learned men saye is multis modis absurdissimum In diuers respectes moste absurde I bring the Cal. Inst. cap. 8. Sect. 92. example of a King bicause other writers vse the like examples in the like matter to confute suche vnlikely reasons and namely M. Caluine in the words following That which M. Doctor affirmeth of one bishop ouer one whole prouince and of one Byshop ouer the whole worlde no man will denie A warrant for the one are the examples of Timothie and Titus and the continuall practise of the Churche without contradiction in the best tymes but there is no warrant for the other of any credite or sufficience béeing onely in the moste corrupt tyme of the Churche and contrarie to all former examples and Canons You say if the whole Churche be in one prouince c. I say that if the skie fall you may catche larkes as the common prruerbe is Moreouer if it were possible so to be as nowe it is not then it were no absurditie the Bishop of that Prouince still to remayne Bishop of the same But what moueth you to suche straunge suppositions The replyers if turned vpon him self I might aswell say if the whole Churche were in one Citie or Towne or Parishe as it was in Ierusalem after Christes ascention and one Bishop or Pastor might be ouer that citie or towne or parishe then one Bishop or Pastor shoulde be ouer the The Church cannot be shut vp in one prouince nowe whole Churche and so you likewise in trauelling with a pastor to be in one Churche at the length bring foorth a Pope But doe you not knowe that the Churche of Christ is dispersed throughout the whole worlde and can not nowe be shut vp in one kingdome muche lesse in one prouince excepte you will become Donatistes He that is not wilfully blinde may sée into what streights you are driuen when you are constreyned to vtter suche impossibilities for reasons Chap. 6. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 101. Sect. 2. But he sayth that an Archbishop hath not the charge of gouernment ouer the whole pro ince generally but in cases exempted and so may doe it more easily But he shoulde haue remembred that he assigned before the offices of Archbishop and bishop to be in all those things whiche other ministers are and that beside those offices he giueth them particular charges So that where the office of the minister is but to preache pray and minister the sacraments in his parishe the office of archebishop and bishop is to doe the same and more too in the whole prouince or dioces And so it followeth that it is easier for a minister to discharge his duetie in his parishe than for an archebyshop or bishop to discharge their dueties in any one parish of their prouince or dioces for they haue in euery parishe more to doe and greater charge than the minister of the parishe hath then much lesse are they able to doe their dueties in all the parishes of their prouinces or dioces Io. Whitgifte I speake of the office of gouernment and so be my words Euery particular parish hath a particular pastor to preache pray and mynister the sacraments The Bishop hath to procure so much as lyeth in him that all things be done in his Dioces according to the lawes orders of the Church The Archbishop hath not only to sée that y e Bishops do their duties but to helpe thē in reforming that which by thēselues they cannot do The office of preaching they exercise where when they sée it most conuenient The whole charge of preaching of gouerning resteth neyther vpon the
C. Page 115. Lin. 12. And in the fourth Councell of Carthage it is simply decreed that a woman oughte not to Tom. 1. cō ca. 100. baptise Io. Whitgifte This Canon in Gratian de conse Disti 4. is thus reported Mulier quamuis docta sancta viros in comuentu docere vel aliquos baptizare non praesumat nisi necessitate cogent Let not a woman although learned and godly presume to teache men in an assembly or to baptise any excepte necessitie constrayne So that the Canon inhibiteth women to preache or to baptise in the open Churche and publike assemblies And this is a sufficient answere to this place neyther dother it impugne any thing affirmed in the Answere Chap. 5. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 115. Lin. 13. The authors of the Admonition obiect that necessitie of saluation is tyed to the Sacraments by this meanes and that men are confirmed in that olde errour that no man can be saued without baptisme whiche in deede is true For muste it not be thought to be done of necessitie and vpon great extremitie for the doing whereof the orders that God hathe let that it shoulde be done in the congregation and by the Minister of the Gospell are broken Yes verily And I wyll further say that although that the Infants which dye without baptisme should be assuredly damned whiche is moste false yet oughte not the orders whiche God hathe set in hys Churche to be broken after this sorte For as the saluation of men oughte to be beare vnto vs so the glory of God whiche consisteth in that his orders be kepte ought to be muche more deare that if at any time the controuersie coulde be betweene his glory and our saluation our saluation ought to fall that his glory may stande Io. Whitgifte Yet the auoyding of that errour is no sufficient cause to debarre Infantes from There is necessitie of bap tisme though the necessitie of saluation be not tyed to the sacramentes baptisme excepte you will therein ioyne with the Anabaptistes The outwarde sacramentall signes are seales of Gods promises and whosoeuer refuseth the same shall neuer enioy the promises and althoughe the necessitie of saluation is not so tyed to the Sacraments that whosoeuer hathe the externall signes shall therefore be saued yet is it so tyed vnto them that none can be saued that willingly and wittingly is voyde of them not partakers of them Circumcistō which is a figure of baptisme Genes 17. had that necessitie ioyned vnto it that whosoeuer lacked it was not counted nor reckened Mark 16. amongst the people of God It is not nothing that Chryst sayth Qui crediderit baptizatus fuerit c. But your maner of doctrine is suche that it maketh men The doctrine tendeth to the de ogation of the sacramēts thinke that the externall signes of the sacraments are but bare ceremonies and in no sense necessarie to saluation whiche muste in time bring in a contempte of the sacraments and especially of baptisme for Infants M. Zuinglius Bucer and Caluine as you heard before although they doe not thinke children without baptisme to be damned yet doe they iudge the baptisme of children to be necessarie and that for iust causes as is before declared And what Christian would willingly suffer his childe to dye without the sacrament of regeneration the lacke whereof though it be not a necessarie yet may it séeme to be a probable token and signe of reprobation What eyther order of God or commaundement is broken in priuate baptisme or where hath God appoynted that baptisme muste be ministred in the open congregation onely and not vpon any cause in priuate families Will you yet deale on this sorte without ground or proofe In priuate baptisme vsed vpon necessitie there is neyther order nor commaundement of God broken If there be shewe it Chap. 5. the. 13. Diuision The Admonition And yet this is not to tye necessitie of saluation to the sacraments nor to nousell men vp in that opinion This is agreable with the scriptures and therefore when they bring the baptised chylde they are receyued with this speciall commendation I certifie you that you haue done well and according to due order c. But nowe we speake in good earnest when they answere this let them tell vs howe this geare agreeth wyth the scriptures and whether it be not repugnant or agaynst the worde of God Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 187. Sect. 1. And yet you say thys is not to tye necessitie of saluation to the sacramentes nor to nousell men vp in that opinion c. No surely no more than it is to teach that children ought to be baptized and not to tarry vntill suche time as they be able to answere for themselues T. C. Pag. 115. Sect. 1. Now in the. 187. page M. Doctor answereth heerevnto that this implyeth no more that the saluation is tyed to the sacraments than when it is taught that Infants must be baptised and not tarry vntyll they come to the age of discretion The which how truely it is spoken when as the one hath grounde of the scripture the other hath none the one approued by the continuall and almost the generall practise of the Church the other vsed onely in the corrupt and rotten estate thereof let all men iudge Io. Whitgifte This verifieth my saying for if baptisme of children be grounded vpon the scriptures as it is then is the necessitie of baptising them the more so that if not for feare of damnation yet bicause of Gods commaundement and institution children are of necessitie to be baptized and this is a receyued opinion in the Church euen from the beginning therfore lay men in the time of necessitie from the beginning haue béene permitted to baptise as may appeare by the authors before alleaged Chap. 5. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 115. Sect. 1. Therefore for so muche as the ministerie of the worde and Sacramentes goe togither and that the ministerie of the worde may not be committed vnto women and for that thys euill custome hathe risen first of a false vnderstanding of the Scripture and then of a false conclusion of that vntrue vnderstanding which is that they can not be saued whiche are not baptized and for that the authors them selues of that errour dyd neuer seeke no remedie of the mischiefe in womens or priuate baptisme And last of all for that if there were any remedie agaynst the mischiefe in suche kinde of baptisme yet it ought not to be vsed beeing agaynst the institution of God and his glory I conclude that the priuate baptisme and by women is vtterly vnlawfull Io. Whitgifte These be all petitions of principles or the moste of them for I haue shewed before that the administration of baptisme hath beene and may be committed to some euen in the publike congregation to whom the preaching of the word is not cōmitted and nowe in lyke maner I haue proued that laye
puritie of the primitiue Churche Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 105. Sect. vlt. c. Interrogatories to be ministred to the infant be not straunge Interrogatories ministred to infantes Dionysius Areopag neyther lately inuented but of great antiquitie For Dionysius Areopagita in his booke entituled De caelest Hierar and seuenth chapter speaking of the baptising of infantes and of their sureties or godfathers and answering to certayne prophane deriders as he termeth them which sayde that one was baptised for an other bycause the Godfather did promise and answere for the childe speaketh thus in the name of the Godfather Neque enim hoc ille ai Ego pro puero abrenunciationes facio aut fidei Sacramenta prositeor sed ita puer renunciat profitetur id est spondeo puerum inducturum cum ad sacram intelligentiam venerit sedulis adhortationibus meis vt abrenuntiet contrarijs omnino profiteaturque peragat diuina quae pollicetur Neyther doth he say this I renounce for the childe or professe the Sacraments of faith but in this sort the childe doth renounce or professe that is to say I promise so to instruct the childe vvhen he commeth to the yeares of discretion vvith dayly exhortacions that he shall renounce all contrary thinges and professe and performe those heauenly thinges vvhich he doth promise T. C. Pag. 133. Sect. vlt. Pag. 134. Sect. 1. There followeth the interrogatories or demaundes ministred vnto the infantes in baptisme for the proofe whereof is brought in the first place Dionysius Areopagita a worthy couer for such a cup. For to let passe that M. Doctor alleageth the celestiall Hierarchie in steade that he should haue cited the ecclesiasticall Hierarchie this testimonie beyng found in the one and in the other dare M Doctor be so bolde as to delude the worlde in so great light with such babies as this doth he thinke that the Authour of these bookes of Hierarchies beyng so full of subtile speculations vayne and idle fantasies wicked blasphemies making one order of Popes an other of Prelates the third of Sacrifie s and then of Monkes some of which orders came not many hundred yeares after that time wherein Denise the Areopagite liued which mentioneth many foolish ceremonies and corruptions that no other Authour neyther Greeke nor Latine stories nor other diuers hundreth yeares after doth make mention of besides him I say doth he thinke to abuse menne and to giue them such drosse in steade of Siluer such chaffe in steade of corne as to make vs beleeue that he that wrote these bookes of Hierarchie was S. Paules scholler for the better blasing of this Denis armes I will sendè the reader vnto that which Erasmus writeth of this Denis of M. Doctors vpon the. 17. of the Aetes of the Apostles where he also sheweth togither with his owne iudgement the iudgement of Laurentius Ualla I am not ignorant what Nicephorus a fabulous Historiographer and of no credite in such matters in those matters especially which might like or mislyke those times wherein he wrote sayeth of S. Paules communicating with Denis and 2. Lib. 20. cap. an other concernyng the heauenly and ecclesiasticall hierarchie But bycause I thinke M. Doctor be now ashamed of his Deuis I will follow it no further By this it may appeare that M. Doctors Dionysius beyng a counterfet and start vp these Interrogatories and demaundes ministred vnto infantes haue not so many graye heares as he would make vs beleeue although in deede the question lieth not in the antiquitie As for reasons he hath none but only as one which hath learned his aequipollences very euill he maketh it all one to say I renounce and to say I will teach another to renounce Io. Whitgifte I knowe there is contrary opinions of learned men touching the authoritie and Authour of these bookes And yet it cannot be denied but that they be very auncient neyther is it any shame for me to alleage his authoritie seing the B. of Sarisburie is not ashamed to alleage the same booke against Harding to proue reading of Defense of the Apolog. Parte 5. the Scriptures in the Church with as great credite as I do Howbeit I wil not take vpon me the defense of them neyther do I doubte but that something may be thrust in vnto them but of all other thinges this is the least to be suspected that I haue in this place alleaged Neyther am I any more ashamed of him than you are of so often alleaging the Canons of the Apostles Hyginus c. the which authorities are as much doubted of as the bookes of Dionysius His reason is to be considered agreing fully with the true meaning of this Churche of Englande but you wipe it away with a floute as your manner is when you are driuen to a pinche Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 106. Sect. 1. Pag. 107. Sect. 1. Augustine also in his Epistle written ad Bonifacium answering Augustine this Question why seing we dare promise nothing of the infantes behauiour and manners when he commeth to mans state yet when An obiection made by Augustine The Answere to the same he is brought to baptisme and the question is asked of those that offer him to be baptised whither the infant beleeue or no they answere that he doth beleeue sayth on this sorte Nisi sacramenta quandam haberent similitudinem c. Except Sacramentes had a certayne similitude and likenesse of those thinges vvhereof they be Sacramentes they vvere no Sacramentes at all and by reason of this same similitude oftentymes they are called by the names of the thinges themselues therefore as after a crtayne manner of speaking the Sacrament of the body of Christe is the body of Christe the Sacrament of the bloud of Christe is the bloud of Christe so the Sacrament of the fayth is fayth neyther is it anything els to beleeue than to haue fayth and therefore vvhen ansvvere is made that the infant dothe beleeue not hauing as yet fayth in deede it is ansvvered that he doth beleeue for the Sacrament of fayth and that he doth conuert himselfe vnto God for the Sacrament of conuersion bycause the ansvvere it selfe doth perteyne to the celebration of the Sacrament And a litle after he sayeth Itaque paruulum etsi nondum fides illa quae in credentium voluntate consistit iam tamen ipsius fidei Sacramentum fidelem facit Nam sicut credere respondetur ita etiam fidelis vocatur non rem ipsa mente annuendo sed ipsius rei Sacramentum percipiendo Therfore although that faith vvhich consisteth in the vvill of the beleeuers dothe not make the ehylde faythfull yet dothe the Sacrament of that fayth make him faithfull for euen as it is ansvvered that he dothe beleeue so is he also called faithfull not by signifying the thing it selfe in his minde but by receyuing the Sacrament of the thing By these two authorities it is manifest that
booke with other mēs collectiōs you wold neuer so oftē charge me with y e same I did not say as I told you before that bicause there was no Seniors in Ambrose time therfore there was none vnder a christiā Prince but this I say that y e Seniors which Ambrose speaketh of were extinguished before Ambrose time and were not in the time of christian Princes To what purpose do you accoūt y ◠time betwixt Philip Ambrose or Cōstantine and Ambrose you should rather proue that this kind of gouernment by Seniors was in Philips dominiō if he were christened which may be doubted or vnder Constantinus You say if I had euer read the ecclesiasticall stories I myght haue found easily the Eldership most florishing in Constantinus time and other times when as the peace of the Christians was greatest You haue read the Ecclesiasticall stories how chaunce that you shew it not It is your parte to proue you holde the affirmatiue Bring foorth one Ecclesiastical historie that affirmeth this kind of gouernment to haue bin vnder Constantinus You might at the least haue quoted the Author with the booke and chapter that so sayth though you had disdayned to set downe his wordes I denie not but it might be so in some time and in some place vnder a christian Prince and yet I know not how you will be able to proue it but that is not the question For our contention is whether this kind of gouernment ought of necessitie to be vnder a christian Prince or not and whether it be conuenient so to be though it be not necessarie and not whether it hathe bin which notwithstanding can not be proued or may be Chap. 2. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 3. And that the Presbyterie or Eldership endured in the Church after Ambrose time and in the time of peace and as it is very like in Ambrose time although not where he was it may be shewed 4. Tom. 2. lib. in Isaiā playnly by Hierome which followed Ambrose immediatly who in his third chapter vpon I say It is in the. 5. tom not in the. 4 sayth that they had also the Presbyterie or Eldership in the churche Io. Whitgifte Ierome speaketh not one word of your Presbyterie his words be these Et nos habemus Hier. 2. lib. in Isaiam in ecclesia senatū nostrū coetū presbyterorū And we haue in the Church our Senate a company of Elders Which he meaneth of Priests and of Colledges of Cathedrall Churches that were then in euery citie and not of a Seigniorie in euery congregation wherby What Presbyterie Ierō meaneth euery seuerall parish was gouerned That this was Ieromes meaning it appeareth in the same place vpō these words Hariolum senem where he interpreteth the word Presbyter sayth they be suche as S. Paule describeth in his Epistle to Tim. and those be ministers of the word and sacraments So may we say that we haue senatum coetum presbyterorum in this Church of England whether you will meane it of Synodes and conuocations or of Cathedrall Collegiate Churches which consist ex coetu presbyterorū of a companie of ministers And therfore Duarenus a learned writer speaking Duarenus of this Seigniorie sayth thus And it is to be noted that there was a certayne Colledge of those Elders he meaneth Priests as it is euidēt in that which goeth before in euery citie ouer whom the Bishop had rule suche as is at this day the Colledge of Canons which seeme to haue succeeded into their place And this company of Priests dothe Ierome call the senate of the Church This Senate cōsisteth of Priests yours of mē in no degrée of the ministerie This Differēce betwixte Ieroms presbyterie ▪ and that the Replyer would establishe Senate was only in euery citie the Bishop was the chiefe yours must be in euery parish directed by y e Pastor We reade not of any such iurisdiction that this Senate had ouer any but ouer the Cleargie yours must haue authoritie both ouer cleargie and laytie wherfore this place of Ierome doth not helpe you one whit But be it that this Seigniorie was y e same that you meane of and that it was in Ieromes church yet for as much as it was not in Ambrose his church also it manifestly appeareth to be a thing indifferent and not of necessitie to be vrged Chap. 2. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. vlt. The same might be shewed by diuers other testimonies which I omit bicause that it may appeare by the former treatise touching the election of the minister that this order of Eldership continued in the Church diuers hundred yeres after Ambrose tyme euen as long almost as there was any sounde parte of the churche from the head to the heele Io. Whitgifte But séeing that you haue hitherto brought foorth so few testimonies scil one only and that to smal purpose it had bin wel if you had not passed the rest ouer so lightly For it is soone sayde that diuers other testimonies might haue bin shewed but it had bin much for your credite if you had recited but one 〈◊〉 that we might at the least haue had two witnesses but in déede you are not able In your treatise of the election of ministers no such thing appeareth except you will haue whole parishes of the Seigniorie and the same to be without a Pastor who should be the guide For parishes do not vsually choose their Pastor vntill they be destitute Neyther is there any mention made by you or proofe in that treatise that there was a Seigniorie in euery parishe to whome the election was committed and therefore you doe but speake this pro forma tantùm Chap. 2. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. vlt. Nowe I haue shewed the ignorance it remayneth to shew how that eyther M. Doctor was maruellously himself abused or else desireth to abuse ether For if where as he tooke halfe Ambrose sentence he had taken the other halfe with him and had not sodenly stopped his breath that he shuld speake no more in stead of a false witnesse agaynst the Eldership he should haue brought foorth as cleare and as lat a witnesse for the proofe of them as a man could desire out of an auncient writer The whole sentence is thys speaking of this office of Elders although not vpon so good occasion Ambrose vpon 1. Ti. cap. 5. thus he sayth Whervpon the Synagogue and after the Churche had Elders without whose councell nothing was done in the Churche which Elders I know not by what negligence they are worne out onlesse it be through the slouthfulnesse of the Doctors or rather through their pride whylest they onely would seeme to be somewhat Io. Whitgifte But if you be not able to alleage one place to proue that your seigniorie was in the time of christian Princes except onely that place of Hieronie M. Doctors ignorance is not so great
chappell cannot be but most daungerous which with all humble submission and reuerence I beseech hir Maiestie duly to consider Io. Whitgifte My speach is verie plaine and without all ambiguitie I say there is a dozen Cathedrall Churches in England the worst of the which Churches in learning shal incounter with all papists c. My meaning can not be so darke as you would séeme to make it but bicause your vnderstanding is so dull when any thing is spoken to the commendation of any other than of your selfe I will more plainly declare my meaning whiche is this that there is not one of these dozen Churches but hathe a sufficiente number of learned menne to perfourme what so euer I haue promysed howe so euer boastinglye which I acknowledge to be my infirmitie but yet there vnto constreyned by the arrogancie of such qui cupiunt soli videri aliquid esse Your opprobrious speaches spoken of those Churches as mere slaunders and procéeding from a minde ouercome with enuie and contempt of other I passe ouer affirming still the same that is conteyned in mine Answere to the Admonition the which you may wel snap and bite at in words but in déede you shall neuer be able to steyne those places and whatsoeuer you pretende to the vniuersities yet your good will is as much towardes the one as it is towardes the other they both depending vpon one thréede But if there be abuses in hir Maiesties Chappell as you suppose why haue you not sought the reformation thereof orderly Why haue you sought it tumultuously why haue you libelled agaynst it why haue you sought it with spitefull wordes with disquieting the Church without all dutie and order The. 2. Diuision Admonition The seuentéenth We should be to long to tell your honours of Cathedrall Churches the dennes aforesayde of all loytering lubbers where maister Deane ▪ maistr Uicedeane maister Canons or maister Prebendaries the greater maister pecie Canons or Canons the lesser maister Chauncelor of the Church master Treasurer or otherwise called Iudas the purse bearer the chief Chauncer Singing men speciall fauourers of religion squeaking Queristers Organ players Gospellers Pistellers ▪ Pentioners Readers Uergers c. liue in great idlenesse and haue theyr abyding If you woulde knowe whence all these came we can easily answere you that they came from the Pope as out of the Troian horses bellie to the destruction of Gods kingdome The Church of God neuer knew them neither doth any reformed Church in the world know them Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 224. Sect. vlt. pag. 225. Sect. 1. Here you speake both without the booke of common prayer and Scriptures also for neyther are Cathedrall Churches conteyned in that booke neither haue you any Scripture to proue that which you so impudently affirme God be thanked it is well knowne to those that be not with malice blinded that Cathedrall Churches be furnished with godly zealous Learned men in cathedrall Churches and learned men And that they be the chiefe and principall ornaments of this Realme and next to the Uniuersities chiefest mainteyners of godlynesse religion and learning there be some desire the spoyle of them whose instruments you be But I hope both theyr mouthes and yours also shall be first stopped with earth Maister Deane maister Uicedeane maister Canons c. as much as they loyter may thinke themselues fit to be compared with such as you are in any respectes T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. And as for the reasons which M. Doctor bringeth to establish them in the. 225. page as that they are necessarie which he doth barely say and that S. Augustine alloweth of a Deane and that the Authours of the Admonition are instruments of those which desire the spoyle of them and that a man may as well speake agaynst Uniuersities and Colleges as ag ynst them I haue answered before sauing that it is to be feared that Colleges in Uniuersities if M. Doctor may worke that which he goeth about will shortly be in little better case than those cathedrall Churches which not only by his owne example but with might maine and all indeuour possible goeth about to fill and fraught with non residencies and such as haue charges of Churches in other places (*) What will this slaundrous tongue spare which do no good in the vniuersitie and partly are such as can do none onely are pernicious examples of riotous feasting and making great cheere with the prayes and spoyles whiche they bring out of the countrey to the great hurt of the vniuersitie presently and vtter ruine of it hereafter vnlesse speedie remedie be therefore prouided Io. Whitgifte If I may work that which you say I go about I trust it shall be nothing that derogateth either frō the glory of God the honor of the Prince the peace of the church the cōmendation of the vniuersitie or the encrease of godlinesse learning I thank god I neither haue gone about any thing nor intende to do whereof I am either ashamed The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 hotte and ter 〈◊〉 or afrayde to make mine accompt But who séeth not your greefe In déede I may not suffer those with whom I haue to do to disquiet y e Uniuersitie or Colledge with false doctrine and schismaticall opinions I may not suffer them openly to breake contemne those lawes statutes which they are sworne to obserue and I to execute I may not suffer any man against the expresse woordes of his othe against all honestie and conscience to liue vnder me least I be partaker of his periurie these be the things that I haue done and these be the thinges that I intende to do whereby as hitherto I haue kepte the place where I am in some quiet and good order so do I trust to continue it both to the glorie of God the honour of the Prince the great encrease of learning the edifying of Christes Churche and the commendation both of the Colledge and the whole Uniuersitie And howsoeuer you haue by woorde and writing sought to deface both me and The colledge deliuered from the slanderous Replie the Colledge yea the whole vniuersitie for my sake cōtrary to the expresse woordes of your othe as I sayde in the beginning yet are you in act and déede confuted though I should not speake one woorde for contrary to your expectatiō and practise of your instruments and earnest desire of al that be factious the Colledge was neuer in better quietnesse neuer replenished with more towarde scholers neuer fuller of students of all degrées I speake it to Gods glory to deliuer it frō your slaunders than it is at this presente A great occasion of all these blissinges of God as instruments and meanes is the grauitie the honestie the wisedome the learning the discrete gouernment of those whom you call non residentes whom not I but the noble founders statutes ratified by the Quéenes Maiesties authoritie and allowed of by the wysest of the
that can not he founde as belike it can not then must their antiquitie be very great Collegiate and Cathedrall Churches be all one for any thing that I can reade to the contrarie if it be not so shewe the difference The. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. But for so much as those auncient Collegiate churches were no more like vnto those whiche we haue now than things most vnlike our Cathedrall churches haue not so muche as this olde worne cloke of Antiquitie to hide their nakednesse to keepe out the shower For the Collegiate churches in times past were a Senate ecclesiastical stāding of godly learned ministers and elders which gouerned and watched ouer that flocke which was in y e citie or towne where such churches were for that in such great cities townes commonly there were the most learned pastors auncients therfore the townes villages rounde about in harde difficuite causes came and had their resolutions of their doubtes at their handes euen as also the Lord commaunded in Deuteron e Deut. 17. that when there was any great matter in the countrie which the Le tes in matters perteyning to God and the iudges in matters perteyning to the common wealth could not discusse that then they should come to Hierusalem where there was a great number of Priests Le tes and learned iudges of whom they should haue their questions dissolued and this was the first vse of Collegiate churches Io. Whitgifte True it is that in times past there was in euery citie Collegium presbyterorum cui In euery citie a colledge of 〈◊〉 praeerat Episcopus a Colledge of ministers ouer whom the Bishop bare rule the which lerome calleth Senatum Ecclesiae the Senate of the churche and the same is now called a collegiate or Cathedrall churche It is also euident that these Presbyteri were all Priests that they with the Bishop had the deciding of al cōtrouersies in doctrine or ceremonies the directiō of diuers other matters in al those places that were vnder that citie that is in all that shyre or Diocesse therfore sayeth M. Caluine speaking Institut cap. 8. Sect. 52. of the primitiue church Euery citie had a colledge of Seniors which were Pastors Doctors for they all had the office of preaching to the people of exhorting and of correcting the which office S. Paule doth commit to Bishops and this is that Seigniorie wherof the auncient writers speake so much which you vntruly without consideration say to haue bene in euery parish and to consist as well of other as of Priests Ministers of the worde and although that kinde of gouernment which these churches had is transferred to the Ciuill Magistrate to whom it is due and to such as by him are appointed yet is it not so cleane blotted out as you would make vs beleeue For Our Cathedral churches not much differing from those of auncient time the Bishop who was then and is now the chiefe of that colledge or Church keepeth his authoritie still may if he please call to gither those ministers or Priestes of the Cathedrall Church to consult of such things as are expedient in diuers p tes he can do nothing without them Moreouer diuerse of the same churches some 〈◊〉 office and some appointed by election are bounde to attende vpon prouinciall 〈◊〉 so oft as the Archbishop at the cōmaundement of the Prince doth call the ame wise they be places wherein are nourished for the most parte the best the wise the learnedst men of the Clergie in the lande whiche not onely in the respect of their soundnesse in religiō profoundnesse in learning diligēce in preaching but wisedome also experience dexteritie in gouerning are not onely an ornament to the realme profitable to the Churche honour to the Prince but also a stay from barbarisme a bridle to sectes heresies a bulwarke agaynst confusion Wherefore as the vse of The hse of Cathedrall churches as necessarie now as afore 〈◊〉 them then for those times states was good and godly so is the vse of them now in this age and state no lesse conuenient godly and necessarie whiche you nor all your fautors shall euer be able to disproue The. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 164. In the ende Afterwarde the honor whiche the smaller Churches gaue vnto them in asking them councell ▪ they tooke vnto themselues and that whiche they had by the curtesy and good will proceding of a reuerent estimation of them they did not onely take vnto them of right but also dispossessed them of all authority of hearing and determining any matters at all And in the end they came to this which they are nowe which is a company that haue strange names and strange offices vnheard of of al the purer churches of whom the greatest good that we can hope of is that they do no harme For although there be diuerse which do good yet in respect that they be Deanes Prebendaries ▪ Canons Petycanons c. for my parte I see no profite but hurte come to the church by them Io. Whitgifte All this is vntrue and your owne enely imagination for these Churches haue not encreased theyr authoritie but diminished it rather as it is euident The names Tract 8. Ca. 2. and offices vsed in them I haue proued before in the title of Archbishops c. to be neyther straunge nor vnhearde of in the purer and auncient Churches And though you sée no profite that commeth to the Churche by them yet those that be quietly disposed in the Churche those that haue a care for the good gouernment of the Church those that haue not by any schisme deuided themselues from the Churche sée great profite and singular commoditie The. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 1. 2. And where he sayeth they are rewardes of learning in deede then they should be if they were conuerted vnto the maintenance and bringing vp of Schollers where now for the most parte they serue for fat morsels to fill if might be the greedy appetites of those which otherwise haue enough to liue with and for holes and dennes to keepe them in which eyther are vnworthie to be kepce at the charge of the churche or els whose presence is necessary and dutifull in other places and for the most part vnprofitable there Last of all whereas M. Doctor sayth that we haue not to follow other churches but rather other churches to follow vs I haue answered before this onely I adde that they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctrine but those whiche made the people of God beleeue that they were happie when they were not and that their estate was very good when it was corrupt Of the which kinde of false prophecie I say and Ieremy especially do complayne And therefore vnlesse M. Doctor amend his speach and leaue this crying peace peace all is well when there are so
their ministerie and those thyngs whych the worde of God doth necessarily put vpon them least the strength of theyr mynde and of theyr body beeyng distracted vnto many things they shoulde be the lesse able to accomplishe their ministerie vnto the full Which may also partly appeare by that whych I haue alleaged out of Cyprian whyche wyll not permit them so much as to be executors of a Testament And in the. 80. Canon of those which are ascribed vnto the Apostles it is enioyned that they should not entangle themselues with worldly offices but attende vpon their ecclesiasticall affayres Io. Whitgifte If you compare the state of the Churche before the time of Christian Kings with the state of it vnder Christian Kings you make an vnequall comparison For howe coulde ecclesiasticall persons enioy any ciuill function when there was no ciuil Magistrate christian to commit the same vnto them How could by this meanes the gouernment of the Church be thought to be helped by the Ciuill Magistrate when as it had no greater enimies than ciuill Magistrates who sought by all meanes to suppresse and destroy it but nowe to your reasons To yprians authoritie I haue answered before The Canons of the Apostles haue nowe béene alleaged by you at the least 4. or 5. times and yet is not their credite and authoritie so firme But that Canon meaneth onely suche worldely causes as be impedimentes to their vocation and I haue tolde you often that ciuill functions be necessarie helpes to the dooing and ful accomplishing of their ecclesiasticall office I haue expressed in my Answere to the Admonition what worldly affayres a minister of the word may not intangle him selfe with Chap. seconde the. 8. diuision T. C. Pag. 168. Sect. vlt. Further in the * councell of Calcedon it was decreed that none of the clearkes cleargie Tom. 1. can 3. as it termeth them should receyue any charge of those which are vnder age vnlesse they were such as the lawes dyd necessarily cast vpon him which it calleth inexcusable charges meaning by all likelihoode the wardship of his brothers children or some such thing Where is also declared the cause of that decree to haue bin for that there were certayne ministers which were Stewards to noble men And 〈◊〉 the. 7. canon of the same councell it is decreed that none of the cleargy shoulde eyther goe to warfare as souldiours or captaynes or should receyue any secular honors and if they dyd they should be excommunicated or accursed Io. Whitgifte The words of the thirde Canon be these Relation is made vnto this holy Synode Con. Calced can 3. that certayn amongst the cleargie for filthie lucers sake hyer other mens possessions take vpon them the causes of secular businesse and through slouthfulnesse separate themselues frō diuine functions and runne to the houses of secular persons for couetousnesse take vpon thē the gouernment of their substance therfore this holy vniuersall great Synode hath decreed that none of these hereafter that is Bishop or Clearke or Monke shall hyer possessions or intermeddle with secular possessions except those that by lawe are dryuen to take the tuition and care of suche as be vnder age or those to whome the Bishop of the Citie hathe committed the gouernment of ecclesiasticall things and of Orphanes and widowes which are without succour or of such persons which neede the helpe of the Church for the feare of God c. This Canon conteyneth nothing contrarie to my assertion the words of the Canon be playne I shall not néede to vse any exposition of it Onely I would haue the Reader marke the weight of your argument which is this The Councell of Chalcedon sayeth that Clerkes may not for filthy lucres sake hyre other mennes possessions or take vpon them for couetousnesse sake the gouernment of other mennes possessions c. therefore there may be no ciuill office committed vnto them I will aske no better cōmentaries to the Canon of the Apostles before alledged or any other suche like than this very Canon of the Councell of Chalcedon To what purpose do you alledge the. 7. Canon of that Councell did you euer heare me say that I would haue a minister to be a Souldier or a captaine in warre or enioy any such secular honor or offices wherefore you lacke probation when you are constrayned to vse this ¶ The reasons vsed in the Answere iustified Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Lin. 4. Sect. 1. 2. Now I come to M. Doctors arguments which he bringeth to establish this disorder And first he sayth ministers of the worde may not occupie themselues in worldly businesse as to be marchants husbandmen craftes men and such like but they may exercise ciuil offices Wher first of all I perceyue M. Doctor is of this mynde that the order of God is not to be broken for small gayne or when a man must take great toyle of the bodie to breake it but if it may be broken with getting of honor and doing of those things which may be done without toyle and with great commendation then it is lawfull to breake it In deede so the Poet but in the person of an vniust and ambitious man sayde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is If a man muste do vniustiy he must do it to beare rule Secondarily I do see that M. Doctor will not be shackled and hindred from his ministerie by a payre of yron fetters but if he can get a payre of golden fetters he is contented to be hampered and entangled from doing the office of ministerie committed vnto him For vnlesse these should be the causes which should moue him to take the one and refuse the other verily I see none Io. Whitgifte This is to deride not to answere M Bucer writing vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. Bucer rehearsing such worldly businesse as withdrawe the minister from his function and therefore be not meete for him to exercise sayth thus Such businesse as warfare market affayres marchandise hucksters craft the ouersight of Innes Tauerns and bathes to exercise vnliberall craftes as to digge mettals and stones to burne lyme to carie sande to be schauengers and such like You haue not yet proued that Gods order is broken if the ciuill offices which I speake of be committed to Ecclesiasticall persons Your iesting tauntes I leaue to those that professe that cunning Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 2. For whereas he sayth it is a helpe and maynteyneth religion in deede that is the reason of the Lib. 4. cap. 11. Papistes which M. Caluin confuteth in his institution And although it be good and necessary to punish vice and iniquitie by corporall punishmentes and by ciuill corrections yet it doth no more followe that that should be done by the ministers than it followeth that for that preachyng and ministring the Sacramentes and excommunication are good and necessarie therfore the same is fitte to be executed
Emperour in ciuill businesse Theodosius the Emperour made a lawe wherein it was decréed that all ciuil stryfes and controuersies shoulde be referred to the iudgemente of the churche if either Dorotheus Duaren lib. 1. of the parties did desire it And the same lawe did Carolus Magnus afterwards renew and confirme and yet doe you saye that the practise of the churche dothe confirme that Bishops may not meddle with ciuill offices If you flée to reason is it not good reason that a Bishop shoulde haue that office Some ciuill iurisdiction giuen to Bishops is agreable to reason and that authoritie that maye helpe hym in dooing his duelie in correctyng vice in procuryng peace in maynteyning good order in cuttyng off sectes schismes and suche lyke in accomplyshing all whiche be that séeth not howe muche he is helped by suche ciuill authoritie as the Prince committeth vnto hym is eyther voyde of reason or wilfully blynded Wherfore I may moste iustly conclude that for so muche as the holye Scriptures The conclusion of this matter doe teache that Ecclesiasticall persons maye meddle with ciuill effices the practyso of the Churche confirmeth the same and reason telleth that it is conuenient and seeing that suche as practise them both in the maner and forme before declared breake not foorth into any other mannes callyng busy not themselues in things whiche belong not vnto them but walke in their callyng occupie themselues in matters incidents vnto it and do good seruice both to God their Prince and their countrey these offices may very aptely concurre and meete together in one person and be profitably linked and ioyned together in one man This did Augustine confesse and acknowledgeth that the Apostle hath bounde them to these troubles not by his owne iudgement but by Bishops bounde by the holie ghost to ciuill troubles iudgement of him that did speake in him as I haue before declared This haue the godlie Bishops Cranmer Ridley Hooper c. consented vnto this doo the graue wise and learned Bishops in our tyme in this Churche by experience knowe Admonition The eightenth And birds of the same fether are couetous patrones of benefices persons vicars readers parish priests stipēdaries riding chaplains y t vnder the authoritie of their masters spoile their flocks of y e food of their soules (a) Phi. 21. 2. such seeke not the Lord Iesus but their own bellies (b) Iud. 12. cloudes that are without rayne trees without fruite (c) Mat. 23. 27. painted sepulchers full of dead bones fatted in all aboundance of iniquitie and leane locustes in all feeling knowledge and synceritie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 226. Sect. vlt. 227. Sect. 1. It is true that couetous Patrones of benefices be a great plague Couetous patrones to this Church and one of the principal causes of rude and ignorant ministers God graunt some speedie reformation in that poynt Neyther can I excuse all persons vicars c. but all this is spoken without the booke and therefore not fitlye of you alleadged agaynst the booke T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 4. Unto the two sections I haue spoken in that which hath bene sayde touching excommunication canons and Prebendaries c. And vnto that whyche is conteyned in the. 226. and. 227. I answere that I can not excuse couetous patrones of benefices but couetous parsones and vicars be a greate pi gue vnto this Churche and one of the principall causes of rude and ignorant people Io. Whitgifte I confesse that the couetousnesse of some of them one waye and the contentiousnesse of some of you an other way hath done muche harme in the Church brought no small hinderance to the Gospell I pray God open the heartes of all that euery man may espye his owne deformitie and be therof ashamed T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. vlt. Lykewise vnto the two next sections I haue answered before in speaking against the spirituall courtes which are now vsed vnto the next after that in speakyng of the ordeyning of ministers Io. Whitgifte You haue not answered to this conteined page 233. I vvill neitheriustifie that vvhich is amisse nor condemne that vvhich I knovve not Only this I say that this taunting spirit of yours seketh rather defamation than reformation vttereth spitefulnesse of stomacke rather than godlie zeale for what a deriding of authoritie disdayn towards the same is this three of them would be enough to sting a man to death for why they are high commissioners VVhat example haue you of any godly man that vsed thus to deride and floute magistrates you say all this springeth out of that Pontificall whiche you must allow by subscription c. But it had bin well if you had tolde vs out of what part of that Pontificall they spring and how they be thereof gathered This you passe ouer in silence Admonition And thus much be spoken as touching this booke against which to stand is a wonder to two 2. Tim. 2. 7. 2. Cor. 4. 4. forts of men the one ignorant the other obstinate The Lord giue those that be his vnderstanding in all things that they may haue iudgement as for the other whome the God of this world hathe blinded least they (f) Math. 13. 15. should see and confesse the truth and so be saued and that do in the full growth of wickednesse maliciously resist the truth God confound them that his peace may be vpon Israell and his sauing health vpon this nation Ansvver to the Admonition Page 234. Sect. vlt. Nay surely it is a wonder to wise learned and godly men to see this booke so painefully penned with such aduise perused and by so long practise allowed now to be defaced as it were with friuolous Foure sortes of aduersaries to the Church vnlearned and vnapt reasons and that by fower sorts of men Atheists Papists and Anabaptists and as you woulde be counted Puritanes God of his infinite mercie giue you charitable quiet thankfull minds and eyther conuert your harts or roote al such disturbers out of this Church that we may with one hart and mind serue our Lord God T. C. Pag. 171. Lin. vlt. And vnto that which is conteyned in the latter end of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the Church shall iudge of the aptnesse or vnaptnesse of our reasons albeit we do fynde fault with diuers things in the booke yet we neither oppugne as enemies nor are by the grace of God eyther Papists Anabaptists Atheists or Puritanes as it pleaseth M. Doctor to call vs. And to the prayer against disturbers of the Church I say with all my heart Amen Io. Whitgifte I would to God you did not oppugne it as enimies c. Surely then would not your fiercenesse nor your bitternes of speach haue bin such as it is But God forgiue you and to the prayer I say agayne Amen Amen Admonition If this be not playne inough by that which is already set
is nor the Iuniper cotesare not comparable with it Io. Whitgifte Nay they can not meane it of me nor of suche as I am for I haue not to doe with the politike affayres of this lande neyther am I eyther of Court or Parliament But I thinke their words following doe clearely seclude me and all other of my degrée for thus they adde immediatly But shutte God out of your assemblies and 〈◊〉 as hitherto in this last Parliament you haue done nothing therin as you ought no though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beene solicited but haue suffered them that were your solicitours to be molested You shall 〈◊〉 both that you ought to haue sought the kingdome of God first and also you shall finde if 〈◊〉 consider not your owne wayes in your hearts howe you thinke it a tyme to buylde seeled houses to deuise lawes for the preseruation and prosperitie of your common wealth and neglect Gods Churche leaue that wast c. These wordes of theirs shutteth me out from the number of their Macheuils Well it is a poynte that woulde be considered That whiche I speake in the. 88. page I am ready to giue accounte of when I am thervnto by due authoritie called Neyther am I afrayde in time and place to speake that whiche I thinke In the rest of this Replie you doe but vtter your impatiencie and vntemperatenesse of your spéeche and therfore I will dismisse you as Dauid dyd Shemei A vievve of the seconde Admonition The seconde parte consisteth onely of rayling wordes and slaunderous Slaunder 〈◊〉 the Churche of Englande accusations first agaynst this whole Churche of Englande for they say that we are scarse come to the outwarde face of a Churche rightly reformed and that although some truthe be taught by some preachers yet no Preacher maye without great daunger of the lawes vtter all truthe comprised in the worde of God c. And a little after they adde and saye that the truthe in a maner doth but peepe out behinde the screene which speeches as they be very vntrue for who knoweth not that the Gospell is wholly publikely and freely preached in this Church of Englande so they be slaunderous neyther can the Papists speake any worse In this parte also to proue that this is no true saying in matters of policie and gouernment it is not repugnant to the word of God and therfore it may be vsed is alleaged this saying of Christ. Mat. 12. He that is not vvith me is agaynst me But they haue forgotten the wordes of Christ Mat. 9. Qui non est aduersus nos pro nobis est He that is not agaynst vs is vvith vs. Wherevpon we maye muche better conclude that that which is not repugnant to the Scripture is consonant to the Scripture than they can doe the contrarie of the former place Notwithstanding in both these places as I think Christ speaketh rather of men and persons than of things them selues In the same parte their speeche of the Queenes supremacie is very Supremacie of the Quene secretly denied suspicious and it would be demaunded of them what they thinke in deede of hir Maiesties anthoritie in ecclesiasticall matters for in this poyut they haue hitherto dealt very subtilly and closely notwithstanding their meaning may easily be perceyued of suche as diligently consider their bookes Likewyse in this parte they note certayne contrarietics in thys Churche as betwixte the Communion booke and Iniunctions touching wafers the Communion booke and aduertisementes concerning Churche vestures the Canons and the Pontificall in not ordering of ministers sine titulo and suche like matters of no importance whiche iustifie rather this Churche than otherwyse for surely if they had had weightier matters they woulde no doubte haue alleaged them But in these same matters they are muche deceyued for as I suppose in matters of ornaments of the Churche and of the ministers thereof the Queenes Maiestie togither with the Archbishop or the Commissioners in causes ecclesiasticall haue authoritie by Acte of Parliament to alter and appoynt suche rites and ceremonies as shall from tyme to tyme be thoughte to them moste conuenient To be shorte in that poynt they saye that in thinges of order one Church may many times differ from another without offence following the generall rules of Scripture for order as in appoynting time and place for prayers c. Which is a very true saying and flat contrarie to all that is sayde eyther Contrarietie in these men in the first Admonition or in this seconde for if suche things may be appoynted in the Churche not beeing expressed in the word of God but depending vpon this generall rule Let all things be done decently and in order 1 Corinth 14. then surely the Magistrate hathe authoritie in suche matters to appoynt what shall be thought vnto them most conuenient so that it be not repugnant to the worde of God except you will make this the question whether in such matters we ought to be directed by the Magistrates and gouernours of the Church or by euery priuate Pastor in his seuerall charge Io. Whitgifte All this is let slippe without answere The vievve of the seconde Admonition The thirde parte of this booke condemneth the degrees of Doctors Degrees in the Uniuersities cōdemned Bachelers of Diuinitie and Masters of Arte in the Uniuersities and slaunderously vntruely and opprobriously speaketh of the Uniuersities and suche as be in them presumptudusty prescribing a maner of reformation for the same when as I thinke verily they knowe not what Uniuersities meane But heere we maye note that they seeke to ouerthrowe all learning and degrees of learning The same parte also very slaunderonsly and vnchristianly rayleth on some Bishops by name and the rest of the Cleargie charging them most vntruely with sundrie things but bicause it is done by way of Libelling a Diuelishe kinde of reuenge therfore I trust godly and wyse men will esteeme of it accordingly Besides slaunderous reportes and opprobrious words there is nothing in thys parte worthy the answering T. C. Pag. 176. Sect. 2. After he accuseth the Admonition as if it condemned scholes and Uniuersities with all maner degrees when it dothe but inueigh agaynst degrees giuen of custome rather than of right rather by money than by merite of learning and when titles of Doctorship be giuen to those which haue not the office of a Doctor and oftentimes to those which can not doe the office if they had it and when men doe seeke vayneglory in them and suche lyke Io. Whitgifte Reade and marke their wordes page 16. and. 17. and the conclusion they vse after they haue in moste bitter maner inueighed agaynst suche degrées whiche is this These vayne names become suche vayne men but the Churche of God they become not and are forbidden by our Sauiour c. Their owne wordes be a sufficient declaration of their meaning and so is yours vttered before a playne proofe of your consenting vnto Pag. 173. sec. 1. them and
eightenth chapter saith that equall power and function is giuen vnto all the ministers of of the Church and that from the beginning no one preferred himselfe to an other sauing only that for order some one did call them togither propound the matters that were to be consulted of and gathered the voyces c. Io. Whitgifte The wordes of the confession in the. 17. chapter be these truely Christe is present with his Churche and is a lyuing head who straightly forbad his Apostles and their successors to chalenge the primacie or supremacie in the Church This the confession speaketh of such primacie supremacie as the Byshop of Rome doth chalenge ouer the whole Church for in that place it onely speaketh of the Popes vsurped authoritie and not one worde of that superioritie among Ministers which is now in controuersie That which the confession affirmeth in the eightenth chapter maketh nothing against any superioritie allowed in this Churche of Englande for we acknowledge that there is one equall power and function of al Ministers but yet superioritie also to be among them for order sake and the same doth the Confession acknowledge in plaine and manifest woords euen in this place by you alledged whereby also that distinction is verifyed whiche you séeme so greatly to mislyke to witte that there is an equalitie of all Ministers of Gods worde quoad ministerium touching the ministerie but degrées and superioritie among them quoad ordinem politiam touching order and gouernment T. C. Musculus in his common places in the chapter of the offices of the ministers of the worde saith that in the Apostolike Church the ministers of the worde were none aboue another nor subiecte to any head or president and mislyketh the setting vp of any one in higher degree than another And further he saith vpon the seconde chapter of the seconde Epistle to the Thessalonians that the honor of a Bishop being taken from the rest of the ministers and giuē to one was the first step to the papacie howsoeuer in other places he speaketh otherwise Io. Whitgifte Musculus in those wordes of his common places speaketh of superioritie quoad officium potestatem touching office and power for these wordes dothe he vse he speaketh not of superioritie touching order and pollicie whiche is nowe in question The same power is in all ministers of the worde of bynding losing and administring the Sacraments but not of gouerning in the externall pollicie of the Church Moreouer Musculus in that place speaketh chiefly of the vsurped power of the Byshop of Rome and of that authoritie which his Byshoppes doe chaleng and clai e from him wherefore that place maye not be wrested against the lawfull iurisdictiō and superioritie that is nowe vsed in this Church of Englande Upon the seconde chapter of thée seconde Epistle to the Thessalonians he onely sheweth how the Pope came to such excessiue authoritie No man doubteth but that such things as were well instituted and vpon iust considerations may by proces of tyme abused but doth it therfore followe that they may not be restored to their right vse agayne A man might then much more strongly reason agaynst your equalitie which by sufficient tryall as by Ierome in sundrie places it maye appeare is proued to haue bene and to be the cause of schismes sectes contentions seditions tumultes murders confusion of Churches and common weales c. Nothing is so well instituted but it may be abused T. C. 3 That the election of Ministers perteyneth not to one man The foresayde Heluetian confession c. in the eightenth chapter sayth that the ministers ought to be chosen of the Churche or by those which are lawfully deputed of the Churche and afterwarde ordeyned with publike prayers Io. Whitgifte This maketh againste you for the confession alloweth that election of Ministers which is made by those that are appoynted to that office in the Churche for these be the wordes of the Confession but our Byshops are appointed to that office in this Church therefore the Confession alloweth Byshops to elect Ministers The wordes that followe that they should be ordeyned with publike prayers is obserued in our Church T. C. M. Caluine in his fourth booke of Institutions 3. chapter 15. section sheweth that the Church did choose and that the Apostles did moderate the election aud confuteth them whyche vpon the places of Titus and Timothie woulde proue that the election belongeth to one man Io. Whitgifte To this place of M. Caluine I haue sufficiently answered in the thirde treatise of election of Ministers chap. 7. the. 1. diuision T. C. 4 That there ought newe to be Elders to gouerne the Church wyth the Pastors and Deacons to prouide for the poore Touching Elders the iudgement of M. Caluine hath beene before declared in the fyrste of these propositions Io. Whitgifte And in the same place haue I answered that whych is there by you alledged out of M. Caluine T. C. M. Beza in his booke of Diuorces page 161. sayth that the Eldership of the Church ought to be where there is a Christian magistrate Io. Whitgifte M. Beza doth not say in that place that the Eldership of the Churche ought to be where there is a Christian Magistrate but that it may be and that it hath bene which he onely speaketh and proueth not And yet if he meane that Presbyterie whereof the Canons speake by him only in generalitie named then is it no other than we haue at this daye in this Church of Englande in Cathedrall Churches and Colleges for in the Canons presbyterium signifieth nothing else but a Colledge or company of Priestes and Ministers of the worde and Sacraments as I haue further declared in the. 17. Tract where I haue also shewed that M. Beza his opinion is that the gouernment of the Church maye admitte alteration according to the diuersities of times place and persons cap. vlt. T. C. Touching Deacons M. Caluine 4. booke 3. chapter 9. section after that he had discribed what Deacons the Churches had in the Apostles tymes saythe that we after their example ought to haue the lyke Io. Whitgifte M. Caluines words be these En quales habuerit diaconos Apostolica ecclesia quales ad eius exemplum habere nos conueniat Beholde what Deacons the Apostolicall churche had euen suche as it is conuenient we should haue according to that example Hee dothe not saye that we ought to haue them but that it is conuenient to haue th he doth not make them necessary but conuenient and he must be vnderstanded to ke of that Churche whereof he had experience not of this Churche wherein he was 〈◊〉 a straunger Of Deacons and that their office was not only to prouide for the poore but to preache also and to baptise I haue proued Tract 19. Tract 14. T. C. M. Beza in the. 5. chap. and. 23. section of his Confessiōs sheweth that the office of the distribution of the goodes of the
Church Chap. 2. the. 34. Diuision Vntruthes for neyther of them speaketh of Atchdeacons in those places alledged to this purpose T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 5. Ierom. ad Euag. Aug. quaest noui vet teit q. 101. It was counted to them great arrogancie if they preferred themselues to any minister or elder of the Churche ours will not take the best ministers of the Church as their equals If therefore Archdeacons will haue any benefite by the Archdeacons of old time it is meete they shoulde content themselues with that place which they were in Io. Whitgifte No such thing is in that epistle of Hierome only he speaketh of deacons touching that matter whome he also she weth in the Church of Rome to haue bin in certaine points preferred before ministers neyther is there one word of Archdeacons in that booke of Augustines but only of Deacons You must learne to make a distinction betwixt an Archdeacon and a Deacon and not to make the reader beléeue that the authors you quote in the margente speake of Archdeacons when they onely speake of Deacons My witnesses how few so euer they be are sufficiente to withstand thys cowardly assault of yours wherein there is neyther strength nor truth Chap. 2. the. 35. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 67. Sect. 3. Augustine in his first booke de moribus ecclesiae Catholicae maketh mention of Deanes Deanes and their offices T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 6. As for the office of a deane as it is vsed with vs it is therefore (*) Vntruthes vnlawfull for that he being minister hath (*) Vntruthes noseuerall charge or Congregation appointed wherein he may exercise his ministerie and (*) Vntruthes for that he is ruler and as it were master of diuers other ministers in his Colledge which likewise haue no seuerall charges of congregatiōs and for that which is most intollerable both he himselfe oftentimes hauing a seuerall Church or benefice as they call it is vnder the coloure of his deaneship absent from his Church and suffereth also those that are vnderneath him to be likewise absent from their Churches And whereas M. Doctor alledgeth S. Augustine to proue this office to be auncient indeede the name is there found but besides the name not one propertie of that deane which we haue For Augustine speaking of the monks of those dayes saythe that the money which they gate with the labor of their hands they gaue to their deane which did prouide them meate and drinke and cloth and all things necessary for them So that their monkes shoulde not be drawen away from their studies and meditations through the care of worldly things So that this Deane which he speaketh of was seruaunte and stewarde and cater to the Monks and therefore only called Deane bycause he was steward and cater to ten Monks Now let it be seene what Augustines deane maketh for the deane which is theirs and what faith and trust M. Doctor vseth in reciting of the old fathers Io. Whitgifte All thys is but your owne sansies taken for principles and groundes For fyrste it is vntrue that euery Minister muste of necessitie haue some seuerall Tractat. 4. charge as I haue declared before Secondly it is as vntrue that a Deane hathe no seuerall charge or congregation wherein to exercise his ministerie For there is no Cathedrall Churche withoute a congregation and charge The third that followeth is builded of the same groundes that these two fyrste be and may as well be spoken agaynste the masterships of suche Colledges in the vniuersities wherein any preachers or ministers bée maynteyned Whyche argueth that you meane the same to Colledges that you doe to Cathedrall Churches and that you woulde haue ministers frée from subiection Last of all that whyche you say is most intellerable you speake withoute any tolerable reason For Master Deane and hys Prebendaries do more good both in the Churche of Englande generally and in their seuerall Churches particularly and take more paines in one moneth than you and your companions whereof some notwithstanding are contente without doing any dutie at all to enioy prebendes more than one in one whole yeare And if eyther Master Deane or the Prebendaries neglect their dueties there be superiours and lawes to reforme them The place of Augustine proueth the name of a Deane it proueth a College and societie whereof he is Deane it argueth a superioritie and gouernmente for he saith they be called Decani ideò quòd sint denis praepositi Deanes bycause they are set ouer tenne it sheweth an office to care and prouide for them and sée that they haue all thynges necessary it declareth dayly exercise of praying and teaching for he addeth thus Conueniunt autem diei tempore extremo de suis quisque habitaculis dum adhuc ieiuni sunt ad audiendum illum patrem conueniunt ad singulos patres terna ad minimum hominum milia Nam etiam multò numerosiores sub vno agunt They come togyther at night euery man from his lodging whilest yet they are fasting to heare that father and they Aug. de moribus ecclesiae come togyther to euery father three thousand men at the least for a greate meanie moe liue vnder one c. Now sir if God of his singular goodnesse hathe to the greate and vnspeakeable benefyte of his Churche moued the harts of princes and men of wealth so to indue suche places with possessions and reuenewes that they hauing thynges necessary prouided for them may bestow that tyme in studying praying preaching and other godly exercises whiche these that Sainct Augustine speaketh of did in labouring with their handes is Master Deanes name or office euer the woorse howsoeuer it pleaseth you to terme these companies that Sainct Augustine héere speaketh of Yet were they Godly societies and do very aptly set foorth the vtilitie and the antiquitie of Churches and Colledges the Deanes and Masters whereof haue indéede the chiefe and speciall care of all externall things perteyning to them whether it be landes prouisions or any thing else that is necessary And therefore the liker to Sainct Augustines Deane and the place more aptly alledged to proue the antiquitie of this name and office If Master Doctor should vse no more faith in reciting the Doctors than you do I woulde he were whipped at the crosse in Cheape Chap. 2. the. 36. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag 67. Sect. 4. Nytherto Antichrist had not inuaded the Church of Rome But what shoulde I trouble you with any more authorities those that be learned may easily vnderstand that these names Metropolitane Archbyshop Archdeacon Primate Patriarke and suche lyke be most auncient and approued of the eldest best and worthyest Councells fathers and writers T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. 7. And vnto the end that these testimonies might be more autenticall and haue some waighte in them Master Doctor addeth that hitherto Antichrist had not inuaded the seate of Rome You shall