prieste should aske councell of God if any thing were to be done for Iosue and that Iosue should goe furth and come in at the word of Eleazar And this one answer serueth all the Examples which ye bring in of King Dauid Salomon Ezechias Iosaphat Iosias Ioas Iehu By which ye wold proue that they had iurisdiction in maters Ecclesiastical For they dyd nomore then than Christian princes doe now euen those princes that are obedieÌ„t to the See of Rome For they buyld Churches and finde Singingmen and Priestes to keepe dayly seruyce they geaue Bishoprikes they put Bishoppes byside theyr offices as Queene Marie did put CraÌ„mer anâ— Ridly aÌ„d tweÌ„ty thiÌ„gs moe they do abouâ— maters of religioÌ„ not as Supreme Gouernours but as deuout and faithfull Princes being glad to doe for the Churche whatsoeuer the Spiritual heades thereof shal moue them vnto and being ready to defend the faith of the Churche as they shall learne it of their Bishops It remaineth then that you shew not that the kinges in the olde lawe did set furth the Seruice of God displace Priests commauÌ„ded the temple to be clensed destroyed Idols c but that they did these thiÌ„gs by their absolute power without askiÌ„g aduise leue or instructioÌ„ of the priests Constantine called the Councell at Nice Apolog. Theodosius the Councel at Constantinople Theodosius the second the CouÌ„cel at Ephesus Martian the Councel at ChalcedoÌ„ Ergo Ecclesiastical matters perteine to the Office of Princes They called these Councels Confut. .308 not by vertue of their supreme autority but by the asseÌ„t of the B. of Rome And so Princes haue to do with the maters of the Churche at the second hand only The Emperour ConstaÌ„tine gaue in yâ— CouÌ„cel of Nice his aduise to yâ— Bishops Apolog. how it was best to trie out the mater by yâ— Apostles Prophets writings Ergo he bare a great stroke with his Authority in their consultation As great stroke as he bare Confut. .313 he strake not the head of the Church froÌ„ the body nor made himself Supreme Euseâ—ius in vita Constant. lib. 3. Theodor. lib. 1. c. 7. But that ye may vnderstaÌ„d how litle he toke vpoÌ„ hiÌ„ he came in last into the Councel with a smal coÌ„pany and sate not doune before he had desired the Bishops to permit it and then also he sate but in a low chaire As for geuing of aduise how things were best to be done it is lauful for the least â—rier Abbate or Doctor in a Councel to do the like and yet euery Frier that speaketh in a general CouÌ„cel is not supreme head of the Church nor of the vocation and Authoritie to define or geaue sentence on any Canon In the third Councel at Conâ—â—antinople ConstaÌ„tine a Ciuile Magistrate did not only â—itte among the Bishoppes but did also subscribe with them In the Councel called Arausicanum Apolog. the Princes Embassadours gaue their consent and put to their handes Ergo ecclesâ—iastical matters pertein to Princes So likewise to subscribe vnto the Decrees of a Councel Confut. 316. and to geue their coÌ„sent vnto matters there determined it is and may be ê‘ermitted vnto meane layemen but to define determine decree and geue Authority vnto a Canon it is neither for Embassadours nor Ciuile Magistrates nor Emperours of the whole world but for Bisshops only whom God hath apointed to gouerne his Church Gods grace is promised to a good mind Apolog to one that fereeth him Ergo not to the Sees and Successours This would folow Confut. 334. if God vsed to geue but one kinde of Grace such as maketh the receauer good But now there is a Grace of faith hope and charitie and it is not an euil minde that hath it There is the grace of preaching working of miracles healing of diseases c. and he may be euill that hath it To be a Kinge it is by the grace of God and that grace continued vntil a certaine time in the Seed and Succession of Dauid yet were not all they of a good mynde that were kinges of Iuda By which it appeareth that your Argument is false and that the grace of Authoritie and continuance is geauen not only vnto the good but the euill that folow in the race and succession Peter when he was at Rome Apol. neuer taught the Gospell neuer fed the flocke c. sate him doune onely in his castle in S. Ihon Laterane aud poynted out with his fynger the spaces of Purgatorie gaue orders to say priuate Masses c. consecâ—ated wyth hys holie breath oyle wax wolle belles c. mainteyned warres set Princes togeather at variance c. Ergo Peter did all thinges like vnto the Pope Of whose deuising is this Argument Confut. 335. Vndoubtedly no Catholike hath the 〈◊〉 to make it Do the ProtestaÌ„ts then speakâ—â—â—â— al this of S. Peter in sad ernest ' â— thinkeâ—â— not so euill of them although they can beâ—â—â— sometimes desperat How then Doe they speake it but in sport and dalie only with theyr Aduersaries The cause is to great to vse in so large wise such mockery Set him vpon the Stage with a furd cap and a motly cote he wil plaie the vice without a vizarde and make gaie sporte to the cumpanie Men say Apolog. that one Cobilon a Lacedemonian when he was sent Embassador to treate of a league found by chaunce them of the Courte playing at dice he retourned straytewayes home againe leauing his message vndone For he sayd it should be a greate reproche to his Common wealth to make a league with dycers Ergo it should be a greate blot to our name to returne to the Pope CabiloÌ„ might be parchaunce a wisemaÌ„ in his own generation but in these daies Confutation 337. he should not be much better than an impatient or Solemne Fole For to play at 〈◊〉 it is not absolutely and in all tymes â—laces and persons euil And to let that â—vndone vpon priuate coÌ„ceipt and iudgeâ—eÌ„t which is put vpoÌ„ any maÌ„ by coÌ„mon coÌ„sent aÌ„d authoritie it is not in most cases alowable But such now is the ê‘fection of the new Gospellers they wil not be at any league with dycers or euill lyuers aÌ„d in theyr coÌ„gregatioÌ„s aÌ„d fraternities ther is I trow no blot of infamy to be feared With what countenance then loke they wheÌ„ they come into the Courtes of Princes or noblemen Do they fin dno dycing â—here and no euil lyuing I haue so good opinion of these mens holines that if the Pope with al his Cardinalles would take themselues to Wyues so to cal harlotes aÌ„d in other things doe accordingly to the forme of the new Gospel he should not only haue a league made with him but also be mainteined in his supremacy which he hath in Christendome And the Cobiâ—on that should be sent Embassadour for the purpose wold neuer returne again â—â—â—uinge his message vndon though 〈◊〉
besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be red in the Church vnder the name of the holy Scriptures Therfore it forbiddeth not the reading of other thinges but in that sort as they should be commended and vttered for Scripture it selfe And strait wayes it foloweth in the same decree Let it be lauful also for the passioÌ„s and deaths of Martyrs to be read wheÌ„ their yerely feasts are kept Doe you see your lie now and wil ye lowly coÌ„fesse it Or are ye so froward that ye wil not see it or are ye so cunning that ye caÌ„ defend it Your coÌ„fession or defensioÌ„ we are content te heare but if you will be blinde lette others behold and consider that nothiÌ„g but Canonical Scripture and the deathes of Martyrs to be readen also in the Church can not both be true and stand togeather And beholde whiles I thought this obiection could not possibly be refelled it was for certainty reported vnto vs here by some that were present at M. Iewels sermoÌ„ at Poules Crosse the fiftenth of Iuly last that he complained that M. Doctor Harding wroÌ„gfully charged the authors of the Apologie with this place as being a manifeste abusing and mangling of the third CouÌ„cel of Carthage For sayd he we alleage not this out of the CouÌ„cel of Carthage but of the Councel of Hippo. Did ye so in deede Is not your Apologie therin against you Is not the CouÌ„cell of Carthage both named in the Text and noted in the margent thereof Your Latine is thus In Apol. Ecclesi Angl. Vetus Concilium Carthaginense iubet ne quid in Sacro coetulegatur praeter scripturas Canonicas aÌ„d in the margeÌ„t thus it is noted TertiuÌ„ Carth. ca. 47. And the English interpretation hath thus The old Councel at Carthage coÌ„maunded nothing to be readen in Christes coÌ„gration but the Canonical Scriptures and there lykewise in the margent ye put Concil Car. 3. cap. 47. How dare ye then so loudly to lie that ye alleaged the foresaied place out of the Councel of Hippo and not the Councell of Carthage It appereth well that Doctor Harding hath ye vpon the hippe when to saue your selues from the fall ye deny your owne words In his reply to D. Cole And wonder it is that M. Iewel would euer be the reporter of such an answer In his replie to D Harding .157 whereas himselfe hath vsed this very place of the CouÌ„cel of Carthage to like effect aÌ„d purpose as ye haue vsed it in your Apology Especially wheras there is no Councel of Hippo extant at al vnto which yet ye refer your selues CoÌ„sider therfore Indifferent reader of this place and suffer not thy selfe so to be abused that they shal make thee beleue that they alleaged not that Councell whiche thou maiest see with thy owne eyes to be named and quoted in theyr Apologie and that they folowed the Canons of the Councell of Hippo of whiche they can shewe no Canons at all that are extant In the Councell at Chalcedone Apolog. Ciuile Magistrate condemned for Heretiks by the sentence of his owne mouth the Bishoppes Dioscorus Iuuenal and Thalasius and gaue iudgement to put them from that promotion in the Church In what parte of that Councell Conf. 315. maie one finde this which you reporte In the thirde Action we doe reade that Paschasius with his two felowes the Legats of the Pope of Rome pronounced the sentence of condemnation against Dioscorus the forme whereof is fully there expressed How then Shall we thinke that one of the Popes Legates was a Ciuill Magistrate Or that the Ciuil Magistrate condemned Dioscorus ageine by the sentence of his own mouth when he was sufficiently iudged by the whole Councel of Bishopes Ye haue manie fetches yet you can not but be conuinced in this place of an impudent lye or extreme folie The most that ye might saie as farre as we can reache is that the Ciuile magistrate subscribed vnto the sentence of the Councell and by his voice also condemned Dioscorus for an heretike But this is not inoughe for you to saue your honesties For you must declare that the ciuil magistrat not only coÌ„deÌ„ned them by his testimonie or assent but also by his sentence and not such a sentence only as might concurre with the iudgmeÌ„tes of the Superiours lyke as euery bishoppe in a general Councel geueth sentence in causes Ecclesiasticall But it is included within that one senteÌ„ce which the chiefest in al the Councel do alow and geue but you must ê“ue that the ciuil mgistrat gaue the senteÌ„ce with his own mouth For so ye speake as though he had ben the the best man in the place and president of the Councel To this of Dioscorus that ye may aunswer the more fully I wil not troble yoâ— with Iuuenal and Thalassius whome ye haue also belyed in this mater Bishopes of an other sorte than Dioscorus was although you haue coÌ„deÌ„ned them together The Sixth Chapiter wherein is noted how the Apologie belieth and abvseth the Scriptures theÌ„selues It was saied indifferently to all the Apostles Apolog. Feed eye YOu meane Conf. 48. I am assured the one and tweÌ„ty of S. Iohn in which chapiter yet there is no meÌ„tion at al of the plural number with Feed ye but to S. Peter alone feede thou saieth Iesus my lambes feede thou my shepe Whether haue you a Ghospell not yet knowen to the world in which Christ saieth indifferently to al his Apostles feede ye Woe vnto you Scribes and Pharseis Apol. which haue takeÌ„ away yâ— keies of knowlege and haue shut vp the kingdome of heauen before men The Scripture saying Conf. 72. that one iote or title of the law shal not passe vntil all be fulfilled a changing of the numbre in any place of the Gospel must not be thought to be vnworth the noting Luâ—â— 11. Of the keie of knowlege Christ spake and not of keies in the plural number Paule saieth Apolo that the tyme should be when men should not awaie with holsome doctrine but be turned backe vnto â—ables and lyes and that wythin the very Church And that within the very Church Conf. 20â— Where finde ye these wordes in S. Paul That men should not away with holsome doctrine it is to be founde in the fourthe chap. of the seconde to Timothe And it is verified in all heretikes but that S. Paul â—hould referre those wordes to the very Church it selfe it is impudently attributed to the Apostle And to graunte vnto you as muche as might be for excuse of your wordes that in some sense it might be true that euen within the verie Churche men shoulde not away with holsome Doctrine that is that althoughe manie for theyr vnderstandinge dissented not from it yet in theyr lyuing they shoulde impugne it Yet to saye as you doe that S. Paule dothe expound his woordes of the verie Churche it is altogeather boldelie and falselie affirmed God Apolog. by
when they haue the greatest victorie thā to iustice wher had the Dukes of Saxony and other your defendours bene From the beginning against the wills of so many Kinges Euery Anabaptist in Brabāt or Scotlād liueth against the Prīces wil because he generally wisheth euery heretike out of the way for feare of infecting the good Chistiās yet ther is another wil in Prīces which if they would folow no heretike could haue peeped vp in all Christēdom but he shuld haue ben quikly dispatched In spite of the Popes That is true in one sense because in deed very spite hath moued diuers mē to refuse his authority but in an other it is false For if he for exāple had stomaked the matter he had held them for excōmunicate which should haue the name of Kīg Hēry in their bokes like as on the cōtrary side it was high treason to haue the name of Papa in any writing or Calēder And almost maugre the head of al men hath taken encrease Here again commeth in almost No if men had resisted it in deede it had neuer ben receiued But partly through couetise of Church goods partly through werines of straight liuing partly through hatred of superiour powers and partly through curiosity to heare what newes came out of Germanie the merchandise of heretikes had an open vent And by litle litle spread ouer into al countries and is come at the length euē to princes Courtes and palaces Neuer say at length For euen from the begining therof it was in the Courts of Princes as of King Henrie the viij Duke of Saxony c. And by plaine force of law the greater part of our owne country is kepte yet stil in it The holy Fathers did alway fight against the heretikes with no other force Apolog. then with the holy Scriptures It is false Confut. 27. as it appeareth by the first Nicene Coūcel declaring the cōsubstantiality of God the Sōne with his Father The second Councell at Constantinople resorting to the writinges of theyr for fathers for profe of the Godhead of the holie Ghost The Councel at Ephesus defining our blessed Ladie to be Deiparam the Mother of God and not only Christiparam the mother of Christ And the Councel at Calchedon where the fathers cried out aloud against Eutyches denieing the two natures in Christe and asking in what Scriptures laie the two natures Ea quae sunt Patrum teneantur Those things which the Fathers haue thought let them be kepte If there had bene any whiche would be but a looker on and abstaine from the holy Cōmunion Apolog. him did the old fathers and Bishops of Rome in the Primatiue Church before priuate Masse came vp excommunicate as a wicked person and as a Pagane How proue ye this Con. 92. Marie out of a decree of Calixtus or as ye should say Anacletus Yet he speketh not of al the people but of the clergy onli ▪ which he apointeth to attend vpon the Bishop at the aultar which are to saie seuen fiue or three Deacons likewise Subdeacons and other ministers Neither are they excommunicated if they doe not receiue but willed to be kept without the Church dores a far lesse punishment so far furthe at the least that it proueth you a lyer Our aduersaries at this day haue violently thrust out and quite forbydden the holy Communion Apolog. They haue so forbidden it Conf. 9◠that seeing th◠slewth of the common people they haue made an expresse law that whosoeuer doth not communicate at Easter shal not be taken for a Christian. And bysides if it be to far for you to goe to Rome it selfe whereas the examples of the primitiue Churche continue in theyr best practise you maie aske of the Churches of Flāders and Brabāt and if there be not more receiuing at euerie principal feast in the yere thā is church for church in the whole yeare with you then let me be reproued And this ofte receauing of Catholike people can not stand wyth a violent thrustyng out and a forbidding the holy communion as you belie the Clergie Now if by the holy communion ye meane not the receiuing of the Sacrament as Catholykes vse but receiuinge vnder bothe kindes neither in that sence speake you truely For no violence was vsed whiles one kind only was ministred no commaundement driuing the Christians at the first vnto it but their owne willes and deuotions allowing it neither by anie later Canon of the Churche are both kindes so quite forbidden but that vpon good aduise and charitable consideration both may be graunted The Bishoppes of Rome doe carie the Sacramentall bread aboute Apolog. vppon an amblyng horse whither so euer them selues iourney What if he would ryde twelue miles or seuen miles out of Rome Confut. 111. doth he carie the Sacrament with him vppon an horse No forsothe Ergo not whether so euer he iourneieth Againe howe doth he carie it In lyke sorte as noble men carie theyr necessaries with them vpon Sūpter horses or packe vp in casketes trūkes or males anie of theyr singular and pretiouse iewelles Surelie the simple and plaine Reader maie thinke vpon the credite of your woordes that the Pope when he rydeth out of towne carieth the Sacrament inclosed vp with him and set vppon some horse as though it were perteyninge to his household prouision Yet the truthe is farre otherwyse for in solemne and greate processions onelie the Sacrament is cariede about But I truste a Procession is none of the Popes iourneys neither muste his holines be sayed to ryde out of towne whē he goeth about the Cytie in his Bishoppelie Ornamentes for praiers sake onelie and deuotion Now when such high feasts do come the mōstrāce or pix for the Sacramēt being verie greate and massy is sette in deede vpon an horse not as a cariage of the Popes but as conteining a Sacrament of the Christians Which that it might be the better in syght and with more ease caried about therefore hath it pleased the deuotion or inuention of no euil mē to prepare a fayre horse to carie vppon his backe the pix in which that bodie is kepte vnder the forme of bread whiche disdayned not to ride vpon an Asse Matt. 21 ▪ whē it came into Hieruselem in visible forme of fleash They say Apolog. and sometyme do perswade fooles that they are able by theyr Masses to distribute and apply to mens commoditie all the merites of Christe his death yea although many tymes the partyes thinke nothing of the mater and vnderstand ful litle what is done Name them that doe saie so Confut. 115. and you shal be discharged of a lie and they punished for their words For the Catholiks alow not these phrases we are able to distribute by our Masses c. As who should say the Priest were no more a sinfull mā nor an hygh minister at the most vnder God but were in dede a certaine God and