gaue it him Hart. They gaue it him at least by their consent iudgement For they would haue reproued it when they heard it read in the supplications if they had not allowed of it Rainoldes Say you so what thinke you then of the CouÌ„cell of Lateran where the Pope is tolde and that in a Sermon that to him is giuen all power in heauen and in earth yea which is more that he hath all power aboue all powers both of heauen and of earth Did the Councell allow of these blasphemous spéeches They did not reproue them Hart. But the Councell of Chalcedon did offer themselues the title of vniuersall Patriarke to Pope Leo as S. Gregorie writeth they did not only heare it giuen him by others Rainoldes S. Gregorie affirmeth it to be a new a proud a pompous a profane a rash peruerse foolish abominable wicked and superstitious title a name of singularitie of arrogancie of blasphemie The Councell of Chalcedon was a companie of six hundred Bishops and thirtie sound in religion and zealous of the glorie of God You must pardon me if I discredit rather the word of one Gregorie then thinke that sixe hundred and thirtie such Bishops did offer to commit so great iniquitie and folie For neither is there any proofe of that offer in any part of the Councell which is wholy extant and that which made Gregorie to misreport the Bishop of Constantinople might induce him likewise to misreport these Bishops too Wherein his affection may be the more suspected because he sayth farther that it was offered to his predecessors not only by the Councel but also by the Fathers following The names it is likely of these Fathers following should haue bene foorth comming if they had bene at hand the matter being so important Howbeit if they and the Councell both had not only offered it but giuen it also yet might they haue giuen it in respect of lesser preeminence then the Papacie Which it must needes be the Councell should haue done for else they had contraried their owne decrées and actions And the Pope himself gaue it to the Patriarke of Constantinople as a title of honour I trow and not of power Wherefore the first title put vpon the Fathers of the Councell of Chalcedon inferreth not the Popes supremacie Much lesse doth the next alleaged out of Cyprian For although Cornelius a godly Bishop of Rome be there named Bishop of the Catholike Church yet is he so named not as the word Catholike signiâ—â—eth vniuersall but as it signifâ—eth right beleeuing holding the Catholike faith Wherefore it maketh no more for his supremacie then for Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria and other Catholike Bishops who all are named Bishops of the Catholike Church Hart. A particular Church may be called Catholike in respect of the Catholike faith which it professeth And so was Athanasius Bishop of the Catholike Church of Alexandria Rainoldes And Cornelius Bishop of the Catholike church of Rome Hart. Nay he was Bishop of the Catholike Church of the whole world not of the citie of Rome onely For it followeth in the same place that there ought to be one Bishop in the Catholike Church Rainoldes That is in the Catholike Church of the citie of Rome For Cornelius himselfe in whose epistle that is written sayth other where entreating of the same matter that there ought to be one Bishop in the Catholike Church wherein there are sixe and fourtie Elders and seuen Deacons Now in a Synode which then was held at Rome there were aboue threescore Elders and Deacons how many huÌ„dred more through the whole world Wherefore sith six and fourtie Elders and seuen Deacons were not all the Elders and Deacons of the world but of the citie of Rome it followeth that the Catholike Church wherein he saith there ought to be one Bishop was the Catholike Church of the citie of Rome not of the whole world And that this was meant in that of Cornelius it is very plaine by the occasion of his speéche as also by the canon of the Councell of Nice made on that occasion For the Church being troubled at that time with the schisme and heresie of Nouatus the Nouatians refusing the communion of the Catholikes ordeined new Bishops for their hereticall synagogues and schismaticall conuenticles Whereby it came to passe that in one citie there were two Bishops a Catholike and an heretike as in Rome Cornelius and Nouatianus in Carthage Cyprian and Fortunatus The Catholikes therefore communicating in faith and loue with Cornelius called him Bishop of the Catholike Church condemning the Nouatians as heretikes and schismatikes with their Bishop Nouatianus And as they sayd farther that there ought to be one Bishop in a Catholike Church according to the ancient order as I shewed so was it decréed by the Nicen Councell touching the Nouatians who became Catholikes that if a Bishop of theirs were conuerted the Catholike Church hauing a Bishop he should not enioy a Bishops roome but an Elders least that there shoulde be two Bishops in a citie Wherefore the Bishoprick of the Catholike Church in the time of Cornelius was the charge that euerie Catholike Bishop had Neyther meant they more who sayd that there ought to bee but one Bishop in a Catholike Church then S. Chrysostome did saying to Sisinius Bishop of the Nouatians in Constantinople A citie may not haue two Bishops Hart. But S. Cyprian writeth that neither heresies nor schismes haue sproong of any other fountaine then of this that the Priest of God is not obeyed and that one Priest for the time in the Church and one iudge for the tyme in steede of Christ is not regarded To whom if the whole brotherhoode would be obedient according to Gods teachings then no man would make any thing adoe agaynst the company of Priests Wherein by one Priest he meaneth one Bishop and by one Bishop Cornelius the Pope to whom he writeth those wordes So that he confesseth the Pope to bée the Bishop of the whole Churche and teacheth men to thinke of him as one iudge for the tyme in Christes steede Rainoldes You erre still in the same point The Church wherein Cyprian requireth obedience vnto one Bishop and iudge in Christs steed is the particular Church of euery citie not the vniuersall For he speaketh it on occasion of iniurie offered to himselfe by the Nouatians in Carthage who there had ordeined a new Bishop against him as their fellowes did in Rome against Cornelius And as the words before and after do shew that he meaneth it of all Catholike Bishops ech in his owne charge so the whole discourse circumstances argue that he applieth it to himselfe not to Cornelius Chiefly that of a Bishop approued to his people in the Bishoprick foure yeares Which can by no meanes agree to Cornelius who
the Emperour did talke at Rome with Marcellinus and brought him to idolatrie Whereas Diocletian was then at Nicomedia about a thousand myles off Besides that Diocletians warre agaynst the Persians was ended certaine yeares before the time of that Councell Yet the Councell sayth that Diocletian being in that warre heard of it There is an other Councell of the same stampe holden vnder Pope Siluester at Rome about the time that Constantine was clensed of his leprosâ—e that is to say neuer Amongst the canons whereof those which begin with Nemo enim there is one Nemo enim to that effect that yours of Sinuessa But what the true Bishops of the primitiue church thought of iudging him they shewed by their iudgement of his fellow at Antioche Paulus Samosatenus whom the Bishops and Elders of his own prouince did excommunicate and depose agaynst your Councels lye that No man euer iudged his bishop Wherefore to returne to the primitiue Churches ordinances and rules from these deuises Papall of Councels neuer holden the first generall Councell assembled at Nice did keepe the Pope vnder in his former state For they ordeined that Bishops should be made by Bishops of their own prouince requiring no consent of his therevnto neither did they giue the hearing and determining of causes vnto him but vnto the Bishops of the prouince too commaunding the ancient canon to be kept that none should receiue them to the communion who were excommunicated and condemned by others Hart. True if they were iustly condemned and excommunicate But if their owne Bishop had dealt vniustly with them vpon some displeasure and remoued them from the communion wrongfully which you cannot denie but that he might do then reason requireth that they should haue remedie Now the remedie thereof is by appeale to the Pope Rainoldes This remedie was deuised by new Physicians that lacked worke it increaseth diseases The Nicen Physicians foreséeing the danger prouided an other and better remedy for them Hart. Better what is that Rainoldes The cause to be heard in a Synode of Bishops so to be decided by their common iudgement For let it be examined say they whether the Bishop haue excommunicated them vpon a way wardnesse or grudge or too much rigour Whereof that there may bee due examination we haue thought good that in euery prouince two synods should be kept yerely to the intent that in common all Bishops of the prouince being gathered together such thinges may be examined And so whosoeuer shall be found in fault and to haue bene dealt with iustly by the Bishop lett them bee holden of all for excommunicate till it shall seeme good to the Synode of Bishops to giue more gentle sentence of them Hart. I grant the Councell of Nice doth bring matters first from the Bishop to the Synode But if the Synode also doe giue vniust sentence then is the Pope left for the last refuge Rainoldes The Councell meant not so but that the last refuge should be the Synode still For they doe not say till it shall seeme good to the Bishop of Rome but to the Synode of Bishops to geue more gentle sentence of them Yea euen the particular honour and preeminence of his which they mention is a plaine token that they dreamed not of such a generall power For it followeth straight in the next canon Let old customes be kept they that are in Egypt and Lybia and Pentapolis that the Bishop of Alexandria haue the preeminence of all these because such is the custome of the Bishop of Rome too Likewise also in Antioche and in other prouinces let the Churches enioy their dignities and prerogatiues Which wordes of the Councell grounding on the custome of the Bishop of Rome that as he had preeminence of all the Bishops about him so Alexandria and Antioche should haue of all about theÌ„ and likewise other churches as the Metropolitan ech in their owne prouinces doe shew that the Pope neither had preeminence of all through the world before the Nicen Councell nor ought to haue greater preeminence by their iudgement then he before time had Hart. Nay the Councell did not limit the preeminence and power of the Church of Rome by those wordes but they followed rather it as a paterne in aduancing others For the Nicen Councell sayth Nicolas the first durst not make any decree of that Church as knowing that nothing could be giuen her aboue her desert yea that she had al things by the grant of Christ. And if the Councels canons bee diligently marked you shall find doubtlesse that they gaue no increase to the church of Rome but rather tooke example of the forme therof for that which they would geue to the church of Alexandria Rainoldes Pope Nicolas endeuoring to proue his supremacie by recordes of Councels some impudently forged as the Councell of Sinuessa some lewdly misexpounded as the Councell of Chalcedon not knowing what to say well of the Councel of Nice doth shape this answere to it for lack of a better But as a dronken man that hath a giddie head enteÌ„ding to go one way sometimes doth reele an other so fareth it with him For in saying that they tooke example of the forme of the Churche of Rome for that which they would giue to the Church of Alexandria he granteth that as the Bishop of Alexandria had but the preeminence of all thereabout no more had the Bishop of Rome And séeing that example is allowed therein and made a paterne of the rest it followeth that the Councell thereby did decrée that the Bishop of Rome should kéepe within those limits Which to be the purport of that Nicen canon not onely singular autors Rufinus and Cusanus but a generall Councell also hath declared In déede the very sticking of your own men in it like byrdes in the lyme may shew that in the sight of sense and common reason it maketh directly against the Popes supremacie For Gratian hauing set it downe as he found it Let the old custome hold in Egypt Libya and Pentapolis that the bishop of Alexandria haue rule of all these because the Bishop of Rome too hath the like custome the glose on him expoundeth it lyke that is like in some things because they both depose Bishops or say the Bishop of Rome that is of CoÌ„staÌ„tinople Of which expositions the former being dangerous that any may depose Bishops beside the Pope a glose vpon that glose alloweth the later of Constantinople sayth it is the better in the iudgement of Hue. But Hue was deceaued For though Constantinople were called new Rome within a few yeares after yet nether was it called Rome nor Constantinople at the time that the canon wherof we speake was made Carranza therfore helpeth it with an old edition shewed him by a Cardinal which in stéede of these words the Bishop of Rome had
and our Church doth hold The third Councell of Carthage which therein the Councel of Trent subscribeth to did adde the bookes of Maccabes the rest of the apocrypha to the old Canon The Councel of Nice appointed boundes and limits as wel for the Bishop of Romes iurisdiction as for other Bishops The Councell of Lateran gaue the soueraintie of ordinarie power to the Church of Rome ouer al other Churches The Councell of Constance decréed that the Councell is aboue the Pope and made the Papall power subiect to generall Councels Which thing did so highly displease the Councell of Florence that it vndermined the Councell of Basill and guilefully surprised it for putting that in â—re against Pope Eugenius Upon the which pointes it must needes be graunted that one side of these generall Councels did erre vnlesse we will say that thinges which are contrarie may be true both Wherefore to make an end sith it is apparant by most cléere proofes that both the chosen and the called both the flockes and the Pastours both in seuerall by them selues and assembled together in generall Councels may erre I am to conclude with the good liking I hope of such as loue the truth that the militant Church may erre in maners and doctrine In the one point whereof concerning maners I defend our selues against the malicious sclanders of the Papists who charge the Church of England with the heresie of Puritans impudently and falsly In the other concerning doctrine I doo not touch the walles of Babilon with a light finger but raze from the very ground the whole mount of the Romish Synagogue Whose intolerable presumption is reproued by the third Conclusion too wherein it resteth to be shewed that the holy scripture is of greater credit autoritie then the Church And although this be so manifestly true that to haue proposed it onely is to haue proued it yet giue me leaue I pray to proue it briefly with one reason I will not trouble you with many All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth some wordes of the Church be the words of errour But he that telleth the truth alwayes is more to be credited then he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more then is the Church That all the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth it is out of controuersie For the whole scripture is inspired of God and God can neither deceiue nor be deceiued That some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour if any be not perswaded perhaps by the reasons which I haue brought already let him heare the sharpese and most earnest Patrone of the Church confessing it Andradâ—us Payua a Doctor of Portugall the best learned man in my opinion of all the papists reherseth certaine pointes wherein Councels also may erre euen generall Councels in so much that he saith that the very generall Councel of Chalcedon one of those four first which Gregorie professeth him selfe to receiue as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell yet Andradius saith that this Councell erred in that it did rashly and without reason these are his own wordes ordeine that the Church of Constantinople should be aboue the Churches of Alexandria and Antiâ—â—he Neither doth he onely say that the Councell of Chalcedon erred and contraried the decrees of the Nicen Cuncell but he addeth also a reason why Councels may erre in such cases to weete because they folow not the secret motion of the holy ghost but idle Blastes of vaine reportes and mens opinions which deceiue oft A Councell then may folow some times the deceitfull opinions of men and not the secret motion of the holy ghost Let the Councels then giue place to the holy scriptures whereof no part is vttered by the spirit of man but all by the spirit of God For if some cauiller to shift of this reason shall say that we must not account of that errour as though it were the iudgement of the generall Councell because the Bishop of Rome did not allow it and approue it I would request him first of all to weigh that a generall Councell and assemblie of Bishops must néedes be distinguished from this and that particular Bishop so that what the greater part of them ordeineth that is ordeined by the Councell next to consider that the name of Church may be giuen to an assemblis of Bishops and a Councell but it can not be giuen to the Bishop of Rome lastly to remember that the Bishop of Rome Honorius the first was condemned of heresie by the generall Councell of Constantinople allowed and approued by Agatho Bishop of Rome Wherefore take the name of Church in what sense soeuer you list be it for the company either of Gods chosen or of the called too or of the guides and Pastours or be it for the Bishop of Rome his owne person though to take it so it seemeth very absurd the Bishop of Rome him selfe if he were to be my iudge shall not be able to deny vnlesse his forhead be of adamant but that some of the Churches words are wordes of errour Now if the Bishop of Rome and Romanistes them selues be forced to confesse both that the Church saith some things which are erroneous and that the scripture saith nothing but cleere truth shall there yet be found any man either so blockishly vnskilfull or so frowardly past shame as that he dare affirme that the Church is of greater credit and autoritie then the holy scripture Pighius hath doon it in his treatise of the holy gouernment of the church Where though he in 〈◊〉 â—â—llify with gallant salues his cursed spéech yet to build the tower of his Church and Antichrist with the ruines of Christ and of the holy scripture first he saith touching the writings of the Apostles that they were giuen to the church not that they should rule our faith and religion but that they should bee ruled rather and then he concludeth that the autoritie of the church is not onely not inferiour not onely equall nay it is superiour also after a sort to the autoritie of the scriptures Plinie reporteth that there was at Rome a certaine diall set in the field of Flora to note the shadowes of the sunne the notes and markes of which diall had not agreed with the sunne for the space of thirty yeares And the cause thereof was this as Plinie saith that either the course of the sunne was disordered and changed by some meanes of heauen or els the whole earth was slipt away from her centre The Church of Rome séemeth to be very like this diall in the field of Flora. For she was placed in the Roman territorie to shew the shadowes of the sunne euen of the sunne of righteousnes that is of Christ but her notes and markes haue not agreed with Christ these many yeares togither Not that
no more to Popes then to other Bishops 2 The Pope may erre in doctrine 3 not only as a priuate man but as Pope 4 yea preach false doctrine also For 5 â—he may be a theefe a robber a woolfe 6 and erre not in person only but in office too as it is proued in euery part of his office 7 with aunswere to the replie made against the proofes for the defense of him therein 8 The succession of Popes hath bene preuailed against by the gates of hell 9 and when the gates of hell preuailed not against them their rocke did argue foundnesse of faith not the supremacie Pag. 277. The eighth Chapter The autoritie 1 of traditions and Fathers pretended to proue the Popes supremacie in vaine beside the scripture which is the onely rule of faith The Fathers 2 being heard with lawfull exceptions that may bee iustly taken against them 3 doo not proue it As it is shewed first in Fathers of the Church of Rome By the way 4 the name of Priest the Priestly sacrifice of Christians the Popish sacrifice of Masse-priestes the proofes brought for the Masse the substance and ceremonies of it are laid open And so it is declared that 5 nether the ancient Bishops of Rome them selues 6 nor any other Fathers doo proue the Popes supremacy Pag. 452. The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller and ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 ofEphesus of Chalcedon ofConstantinople eftsoones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie Pag. 652. The tenth Chapter 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiectes in thinges spirituall and temporall and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull 2 The breaking of the conference off M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it Pag. 669. The first Chapter 1 The occasion of the conference the circumstances and poyntes to be debated on 2 The ground of the first poynt touching the head of the Church Wherein how that title belongeth vnto Christ how it is giuen to the Pope and so what is meant by the Popes supremacie RAINOLDES You haue heard maister Hart from the Right honorable M. Secretarie Walsyngham the cause why he hath sent for me to come vnto you to conferre with you concerning matters of religion for the better informing of your conscience and iudgement In the which respect you signified vnto him your selfe to bee willing to conferre with any man so that you might be charitably and Christianly dealt withall Hart. In deede I did signifie so much to M. Secretarie neither am I vnwilling to do that I haue promised Howbeit I wish rather that if a conference be purposed the learned men of our side whome we haue many beyond sea might be sent for hether of riper yeares and sounder iudgement As for mée the condition of conference with you is somewhat vn-euen For I lie in prison and am adiudged to dye the closenesse of the one terror of the other doth dull a mans spirits and make him very vnfitte for study I neither am of great yeares nor euer was of great reading and yet of that which I haue read I haue forgotten much by reason of my long restraint I am destitute of bookes we are not permitted to haue any at all sauing the Bible onely You of the other side may haue bookes at will and you come fresh from the vniuersitie whereby you are the readier to vse them and alleage them These are great disaduantages for me to enter into conference with you Neuerthelesse I am content as I haue said to do it so that my wantes may be supplied with furniture of bookes such as I shall desire Rainoldes The learned men of your side it lyeth not in me to procure hether I would to God none of them had euer come from Rome with traiterous intente nay more then intent to moue rebellion against our Soueraine and arme the subiectes against the Prince It had fared better both with you and others who came from him that sent them Your imprisonment and daunger which hath hereon ensued I can more easily pittie then relieue I wish you were at libertie so that her highnes were satisfied whome you haue offended The condition of conference the which is offred you is not so vn-euen in deede as in shew For although I come fresh from the vniuersitie yet I come from one of those vniuersities wherin your selues report that few of vs do study and those few that study study but a few questions of this time onely and that so lightly that we be afeard to reason with common Catholikes or if we do reason the common sort of Catholikes are able to answere all our arguments and to say also more for vs then wee can say for our selues You of the other side haue béene brought vp in one of those Seminaries wherein all trueth is studied the maisters teach all trueth the schollers learne all truth the course of diuinitie which our students nay our Doctors and Readers can not tel almost what it meaneth is read ouer in foure years with so great exactnes that if a man follow his study diligently he may become a learned Diuine and take degree Yea besides the Lectures of positiue Diuinitie of Hebrue of controuersies of Cases of conscience the Lecture of Scholasticall Diuinitie alone wherein the whole bodie of perfit Theologie doth consist doth teach within the same foure yeares all the poyntes of Catholike faith in such sort that thereby the hearers come to vnderstand not only what is in the scriptures about a matter of faith but also whatsoeuer is in all the Tomes of Councels wrytings of Fathers volumes of Ecclesiastical histories or in any other Author worthie the reading Wherefore sith you haue heard this course of diuinitie and haue béene admitted to take degree therein vpon the hearing of it you may not alleage vnripenes of yeares or reading or iudgement especially against me before whome in time so long in place so incomparable you tooke degrée in diuinitie if yet our degrées may goe for degrées the Pope hauing depriued vs of them But you haue no bookes sauing the Bible onely You are it is likely the redier in that booke chiefly sith at Rhemes beside your priuat studie of it you were exercised in it dayly by reading ouer certaine Chapters wherein the hard places were all expounded the doubtes noted the controuersies which arise betwixt you and vs resolued the arguments which our side can bring vnto the contrarie perspicuously and fully answered So that with this armour you are the more strongly prepared against me who can be content to deale with you in conference by that booke alone as by the booke of all trueth Notwithstanding though
the like consent by which they were made But with the Pope it is not so For such is the power of his Princely prerogatiue that not onely Councels may not make decrées for the Church-gouernment without his consent but hee may also make decrées without them as good as they with him Yea that he may adde too and take from and alter what hee shall thinke good in the decrées of Councels and set them out for theirs as Pope Clemens played with the Councell of Vienna Yea that being made with their consent and his both hee maye breake them when he will and repeale them if he list for no lawe doth hold him Now sith that the power which you giue the Pope by the name of supreme head you giue it Peter too from whom you fetch the Popes conueiance and Peter in the assemblies of the Apostles was but as the Speaker and therefore not as the Prince and therefore not as more then the Prince in our Parlament hereof I conclude that Peter was not the supreme head of the Apostles And so haue you the third point which I promised to proue that if somewhat more were giuē to Peter thē to the rest of the Apostles yet was it not so much as should make him their supreme head You may discharge now the Actes of the Apostles out of your Campe. For drawe what reasons thence you list you shal find thē as I told you no stronger thē the former Hart. You are too hasty your conclusion runneth away before your proofe Rainoldes I haue proued as much as may conclude your Pope to be an vsurper Hart. You haue not proued that Peter in the assemblies of the Apostles was but as the Speaker is in our Parlament Rainoldes What néede I When your selfe gaue no more vnto him then as the Speakers office in the former assembly wherein yet he did most For you said that he proposed an election to be made of a new Apostle into the roome of Iudas And this was all that you might say and say truely by the story of the Actes Which sheweth that not he but they mad◠the election so farre as it was lawfull for them to deale with that which God was to order extraordinarilie As for the other assembly when the Councel was held at Ierusalem you cannot proue that he had so much as the office of a Speaker therein Your Doctor infeoffeth him I graunt with more namely that hee speaketh first of all concludeth yea and is President too But what will not he dare to affirme who in so great light of the Scriptures affirmeth in writing that which is flat against them For he saith that Peter not only speaketh first but concludeth also And they shewe that both there had beene much debating and reasoning of the matter before Peter spake and after he had spoken Barnabas and Paule and Iames spake and so the Councell did conclude the matter Yea they did conclude it according to the very wordes that Iames spake and a speciall point of his which Peter touched not So that if we would striue but lawfully against that for which you striue vnlawfully the likely-hood is rather that Iames sat as President in the Coūcell then Peter sith both he spake last and the whole Councell did conclude with him But to yéeld vnto you for your most aduantage as much or more then any likely-hood may afford you that Peter was not only the Speaker but the President in both the assemblies yet are you no néerer vnto that supremacy which you shoote at For such a Presidentship as Peter had amongst the Apostles is so farre from the Prelatship which the Pope seeketh to haue amongst Bishops that if we should offer him all that Peter had at your request vpon condition that he would accept it and aske no more then it he would thinke we mocked him and giue you litle thankes who take vpon you to be his aduocate make so poore a plea for him This you may perceiue by an other aduocate who made the same plea for him out of this storie a learned Lawier Francis Duaren He in his Abridgement of the Canon lawe falling into the question of the Pope and the Councell whither of them is soueraine and hath the chiefest power whereto the other should be subiect in matters of the Church doth thus set downe his iudgement of it It seemeth most agreeable to the law of God that the Church which the Councell doth represent should haue the chiefest power and the Pope should acknowledge himselfe subiect to it For the power of binding and loosing was giuen by Christ not to Peter alone whose successour the Pope is said to be but to the whole Church Howbeit I deny not but Peter was set ouer the rest of the Apostles Hereof it commeth that in the time of the Apostles as often as any was to be ordeined either Bishop or Deacon or any thing to bee decreed which appertained to the Church Peter neuer tooke that vpon himselfe but permited it to the whole Church This was in him aboue the rest that he was wont as chiefe of the Apostles to call them togither and propose to them the thinges which were to bee doone Euen as now with vs hee that is the President of a court of Parlament doth call togither the Senate in the Senate he speaketh first when it is needfull and doth many other things which argue a certaine prerogatiue and preeminence of the person that he beareth Yet is he not therefore greater or higher then is the whole court neither hath hee power ouer all the Senatours neyther may hee decree any thing against their iudgements nay the iudgement of all controuersies belongeth to the court whose head the President is said to bee and not to the President Yea if neede bee the court dooth minister iustice and execute iudgement as well against him as against anye other and punisheth him also And this was the state of these thinges in olde time But in processe of time I know not how it came to passe that the highest power ouer all Christians was giuen vnto one man and he was set at libertie from being bound to any lawes after the maner of Emperours or to the Canons decrees of any Councels For Pope Paschalis prouided and ordered by a decretall Epistle that no Councels may prescribe a lawe to be kept of the church of Rome the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome is excepted expresly in the decrees of certaine Councels And thus he goeth forward in shewing the prerogatiue of the Pope aboue the Councell whereof he maketh him President But so that you sée he acknowledgeth it is not in the Actes of the Popes as it was of old in the Actes of the Apostles no not in those very places of the Actes whereon you grounde
fortie chapters which hath not twentie in the Latin and yet notwithstanding the Latin hath the whole as well as the Gréeke Which is the more likely to haue béene the difference betwéene the Gréeke Cyrill alleaged by the Councell and our Latin Cyrill translated out of Gréeke because that our Latin hath also other sentences in the tenth booke which are alleaged by the Councell out of the foure and twentéeth and in their diuision a chapter and a booke did go for all one wheras the bookes in Latin are sub-diuided into chapters The mentioning therefore of more bookes of Cyrils treasure then we haue remoueth not suspicion of forgery from the sayings which Thomas citeth thence for the Popes supremacie Chiefely sith Trapezuntius who translated that worke of Cyrill into Latin was a man affectionate greatly to the Pope That if he had left out somewhat of that Gréeke as he hath perhaps vnlesse he vsed Cyril better then Eusebius yet is it not credible that he would haue left out so many places so notable proofes of a thing so weighty so néerely touching him whom he so déerely loued In déede they are too notable and perfit for the purpose and such as your Canus saith haue not their matches throughout all the Fathers Wherin that is also worthy of remeÌ„brance which a wise maÌ„ said in a like case to much perfectioÌ„ breedeth suspicioÌ„ Neither was S. Cyril likely to write theÌ„ who when the Councel of Carthage sent vnto him about the Popes vsurping was so glad to send them euidence against it neither was his treasure fitte to write them in as handling al an other matter namely that the Sonne and the Holy ghost are of one substance with God the Father But the forging of Cyrill might be better borne with he was but one man That is no way tolerable that the like dealing is vsed with sixe hundred Bishops and more euen with the generall Councel of Chalcedon Of whom Thomas writeth that they decreed â—hus If any Bishop be accused let him appeale freely to the Pope of Rome because we haue Peter for a rocke of refuge and he alone hath right with freedome of power in the steed of God to iudge and trie the crime of a Bishop accused according to the keyes which the Lord did giue him And againe after Let all thinges be kept which are defined by him as defined by the Vicar of the Apostolike see And to proue that the Pope hath vniuersal soueraintie ouer the whole church of Christ It is read saith Thomas in the Councel of ChalcedoÌ„ that the whole Councell did cry to Pope Leo God graunt long life to Leo the most holy Apostolike vniuersall Patriarke of the whole world Nowe in the generall Councell of Calcedon there is not one of these thinges no more then the other were in Cyrils treasure Wherefore it must needes be that either Thomas coined them or had them from some coiner Belike he who did it was maister of the Popes mint and who that should be but Thomas I know not Hart. Neither Thomas nor any els For these thinges were writen in the Councell of Calcedon but heretikes haue razed them out of our copies as Gregorie complaineth to the Earle Narses Rainoldes Or rather as Canus reporteth out of Gregorie but reporteth falsely For Gregorie doth not mention either heretikes or these things Only he affirmeth that the church of Constantinople had falsified the Councell of Chalcedon in one place which he séemeth to meane of the eight and twentieth canon of that Councell as the Grecians recken it wherein Constantinople is allowed equall priuiledges with Rome For the Church of Rome had still withstood this canon chiefely Pope Leo. Yet Constantinople and the Gréeke churches did set it downe amongst the rest The difference betwéene them appeareth to this day in the Gréeke and Latin copies the one of them hauing it and the other wanting it Which is a great presumption that Gregorie in saying the Councell of ChalcedoÌ„ is falsified by the church of Constantinople in one place meant this place by which Constantinople claimed as great prerogatiues as Rome the church of Rome crying against it And hereof Carranza in the abridgement of the Councels and Surius in the whole do giue a marke both reiecting that canon But neither Surius nor Carranza doo bring in any such stuffe as that of Thomas or say that it was written in the CouÌ„cell of Chalcedon but heretikes haue razed it out Nay the verye canons them selues of that Councell which are agreed vpon in both the Greeke Latin copies do cut off al shew from such false and friuolous defenses of Thomas For it cannot be thought that so great a Councell of so wise men ordeined things repugnant one vnto an other and they haue ordeined repugnant vnto that which Thomas citeth of the Pope as shall appeare after But Canus hath greatly both abused you and ouershot himselfe who to proue that now the copies haue not those thinges which they had in Thomas time bringeth Gregory for witnesse who liued long before Thomas and chargeth heretikes with that wherewith Gregory chargeth Catholikes and saith that they haue razed out where Gregory saith they haue falsified which they might do by adding too and speaketh it of sundry places which Gregory speaketh but of one and that one by the iudgement of your owne fréendes an other one then those of Thomas Now much more ingenuously should Canus haue done and you who follow him in euill to confesse a fault where a fault is then to commit many for the couering of one and for cléering Thomas to corrupt Gregory and to sclaunder vs with vniust reproches that you maye saue your selues from a iust reproofe Hart. I did not peruse the place my selfe in Gregory but tooke it as I found it alleaged by learned men For Cope hath it as well as Canus Neither doo I thinke that they did wrest it purposely but trusting their memories for the matter in generall did misse in setting down the words Rainoldes Neither doo I charge them as wilfull wresters of it It may be that Canus read it in some other and Cope in Canus and you in Cope and thus by tradition you are deceyued from hand to hand Remember Christes sentence If the blind leade the blind both shall fall into the ditch But this may suffice for a taste of your corrupting the writings of the Fathers before they came to the print Now how you haue vsed them since they were printed let your setting foorth of Cyprian first at Rome and then at Anwerp be an example In the time of Cyprian the church of Christ was troubled with the heresie of the Nouatians or as they called themselues Puritans a faction of men who thinking all impure and vncleane which had fallen in the time of
them and the Pope hath robbed them The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 of Ephesus of Chalcedon of Constantinople est soones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie HART The Church doth acknowledge the doctrine of the Popes supremacie to be catholike Wherefore you doe euill to touch it with the name of Papistrie For the Church is the piller and ground of the truth Rainoldes The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth in office and dutie and the Priest is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But as there were Priestes who did not their message in shewing Gods will so there may be Churches which shall not vpholde and mainetayne the truth Hart. Nay that is true still which the Church teacheth For S. Paul sayth not that it ought to be the piller ground of the truth but that it is so Rainoldes Neither doth Malachie say that the Priest ought to be the messenger of the Lord of hostes but that hée is so And what is the occasion wherevpon S. Paule sayth that and to whom Hart. To Timothee that he might know how he ought to conuerse in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God Rainoldes The Church then which Timothee was conuersant in and must behaue himselfe according to his charge in gouernment thereof is called by S. Paule the piller and grounde of the truth Hart. It is and what then Rainoldes But the Church which Timothee was conuersant in was the Church of Ephesus The Church of Ephesus then is called the piller and ground of the truth Now the Church of Ephesus hath condemned the doctrine of the Popes supremacie nor only that Church but other of the East too Wherefore if that be true still which the Church teacheth because S. Paule calleth it the piller and ground of the truth the doctrine of the Popes supremacie is wicked and Papistrie is heresie Hart. The Churches of the East haue erred therein But the West alloweth it for catholike doctrine And all the ancient Churches both of East and West did subscribe to it vntill schisme and heresie had seuered them one from the other Rainoldes That spéeche is as true as was the former of the Fathers For except the crew of the Italian faction who haue aduanced the Pope that they might raigne with him all Christian Churches haue condemned his vsurped soueraintie and do till this day Hart. All Christian Churches who did euer say so before you or what one witnesse haue you of it Rainoldes The Pastors and Doctours in Synodes and Councels wherein they tooke order for their Church-gouernment ech in their seuerall ages For to begin with the ancientst and so come downe to our owne it was in Cyprians tyme ordeined by them al that euery mans cause should be heard there where the fault was committed Hart. That must be vnderstoode of the first handling of causes not the last For they might be heard at Rome vpoÌ„ appeales if being heard at home first the parties were not satisfied Rainoldes The cause of the parties mentioned in Cyprian was heard at home alreadie by the Bishops of Afrike who excommunicated them Yet he reproueth them for running to Rome Wherefore the ordinaunce that he groundeth on did prouide for hearing and determining of causes both first last and all against such as appealed if you so tearme it to Rome Which he maketh plainer yet in that he calleth those Rome-appealers home if vpon repentaunce they séeke to be restored and sayth that they ought to pleade their cause there where they may haue accusers and witnesses of their fault and that other Bishops ought not to retract thinges done by them of Afrike vnlesse a few lewde desperate persons thinke the Bishops of Afrike to haue lesse autoritie by whom they were iudged alreadie and condemned Hart. When Cyprian denieth that the Bishops of Afrike are of lesse authoritie you must not imagine that he compareth them with the Bishop of Rome but with the Bishops of Fraunce Spaine Greece or Asia and chiefly of Numâ—dia Rainoldes You were better say as a Iesuit doth that Cyprian hath no such thing then answer so absurdly For it is too manifest that he compareth them with such as the parties whom they had coÌ„demned did run to for remedie And that was Cornelius Bishop then of Rome It was ordeined therfore by all the Bishops of Afrike Italie and others in the primitiue Church that the Pope should not be the supreme iudge of ecclesiasticall causes Hart. Why doth S. Cyprian then desire Pope Stephen to depose Martian a Nouatian heretike Bishop of Arle in Fraunce and to substitute an other in his roome a Catholike Rainoldes Nay why doe your men say that S. Cyprian doth so whereas he doth not For he desireth Stephen to write to the Bishops of Fraunce to depose him and to the prouince and people of Arle to choose a new Both which things are disproofes of the Popes supremacie Who neither could depose Bishops at that time as also the Cardinal of Aliaco noteth misliking that the Pope alone doth now depose them which then a Synode did neither when a Bishop was orderly deposed could he create an other but the people of the citie and Bishops of the prouince chose him Yea a Bishop chosen by them was lawfull Bishop though the Pope confirmed him not yea though he disallowed him as it is declared by a Councell of Afrike against the same Pope Stephen Wherefore Cyprian meant not that he might depose and substitute a Bishop but ought to giue his neighbours counsell to doe it for the common dutie that euery pastour oweth to all the sheepe of Christ to helpe them when they are in daunger And thus sith the ordinances of the primitiue Church deharred the Pope from the soueraine power of iudging deposing creating Bishops nor from this only but other ecclesiasticall causes as I shewed it foloweth that the primitiue Church did denie the supremacie of the Pope or to say it with the wordes of Cardinal Siluius Before the Councell of Nice men liued ech to himselfe and there was small regard had to the Church of Rome Hart. Yet there was a Councâ—l holden at Sinuessa or Suessa as some say before the Councel of Nice And there wheÌ„ Marcellinus the Pope was accused for offring incense vnto idols the Bishops sayd that he might be iudged of no man Which is a manifest token of their allowing his supremacie Rainoldes That Councell is a counterfeit As you may perceaue by that it reporteth that Diocletian
the MetropolitaÌ„ And this would serue fitly to take away the scruple as hée sayth it doth of them who haue thought that the Bishop of Rome is made equall with other Metropolitans by that canon But because it goeth against the consent of most ancient copies of the Popes owne and others Andradius reproueth it and kéeping the name of the Bishop of Rome sayth that by his custome his iudgement is meant A hard interpretation and flat against the text which authorising and approuing the custome of the Bishop of Alexandria because the Bishop of Rome hath that custome too doth ground them both vpon old customes not one vpon the others iudgement Wherefore the Iesuites the perfiters of Poperie haue concluded now that the beginning of the canon wanteth what this The Church of Rome hath still had the primacie Hart. And good reason why For it is cited so in the Councell of Chalcedon Rainoldes So they say but falsely And that with a pretie shift of legiâ—rdemaine For whereas Paschasinus the Popes Legate there bringing forth that canon to the Popes behoofe had set this title ouer it That the Church of Rome hath still had the primacie the Iesuites suppressing quite the word That doe alleage the rest as a part of the canon Hart. Perhaps they thought the word That to be superfluous Rainoldes They might haue thought the whole title to be so if they had marked that which followeth in the Councel For the same canon being recited straight out of an other copie by Constantine the Secretarie hath no word therof But to leaue the dealing of the Popes legate with the beginning of the canon the Iesuites cannot scape out of the midst of it no more then their complices For the Roman reader is entangled in it as fast as Pope Nicolas whose forme he relieth on The abridgement of coÌ„trouersies doth lie by his side too with brauer shew but lesser strength Hart. Whether that title were added to the canon by the Popes Legate or were a part thereof it maketh no matter The primacie named in it was giuen to the Pope by the Councel of Nice For though in the common volumes of Councels there be but twentie canons of theirs extant now yet they made fourescore By many of the which the Pope is autorised to iudge all greater causes as Iulius declareth Yea the fourescore canons whole were found of late at Alexandria in the Arabian toung and turned into Latin out of the Arabian by a learned Iesuite Therein are Patriarkes sayd to rule all their subiectes as the Pope is head of all Patriarkes like Peter to whom all power is geuen ouer all Christian Princes and ouer all their peoples as being Christs vicar ouer all nations of the earth Rainoldes That of Pope Iulius I haue alreadie shewed to be a bastard ympe The canons cited in it are â—att after kinde Contius your lawyer sayth that their bastardie is proued euen by this that no man no not Gratian himselfe durst alleage them No dout if the Pope had layde them vp so as the counterfeite Iulius sweareth that he did Pope Zosimus and the rest who made such adde with the Bishops of Afrike about the Nicen Councell would haue found and shewed them But the Arabian canons which the Iesuite brought from AlexaÌ„dria may suffice to giue or take a deaths wound of them For those which Iulius citeth are not in the Arabian That which the Arabian hath is not in Iulius Hart. Though Iulius cite not that of the Popes supremacie which the Arabian hath yet might it be true And certes the credit of the Arabian copie must néedes be very great Chiâ—fly sith it agréeth in the perfit number of the Nicen canons For they were fourescore as Athanasius writeth Who sent to Pope Marcus for the full copies of them when the Arians had burnt them at Alexandria Rainoldes And Pope Marcus sent theÌ„ him Whereby is disclosed the forgerie of both their writinges For the bookes which the Arians burnt at Alexandria were burnt in the time of Constantius the Emperour as appéereth by the complaint of the right Athanasius being driuen out thence Now Marcus the Pope was dead about an eyght or nine yeares before in the time of Constantine as Ierom recordeth Hart. But other Fathers speake of sundrie thinges decréed by the Nicen Councell as you may sée in Cope whereof there is no mention in the twentie canons that are extant now Rainoldes Neither in the fourescore canons of the Arabian Wherefore if the sundrie thinges which they speake of doe proue all sundrie canons the Arabian canon which Harpsfields Cope alleageth for the Popes supremacie may chaunce to proue a counterfeit Nay it must proue so because it is a canon if you beléeue the Fathers For they had only twentie euen the same that we haue S Austin and aboue two hundred Bishops of Afrike acknowledged no mo Caecilian the Bishop of Carthage brought no mo from the Councel it selfe whereat he was present S. Cyril the Bishop of Alexandria Atticus the Bishop of Constantinople affirme there were no mo Rufinus who hath registred them in his storie deliuereth no mo Finally S. Isidore a curious sercher of them sayth they were iust so many As for other Fathers if they shewe any thing to haue bene decréed by the Nicen Councell which is not in these canoÌ„s as they doe certaine the canons decrees of the councel of Trent may teach you that some things might be decreed besides and yet the canons be but twentie Hart. What say you then to that which Zosimus alleaged in the Councell of Carthage touching appeales of Bishops to the Bishop of Rome For that is called a canon of the Nicen Councel and not a decree Rainoldes I say that it was neither decree nor canon of it as the Bishops of Afrike answered and prooued Yea the Roman reader the chiefe of your Iesuites is of the same opinion adding that he thinketh that Zosimus did call it a canon of the Nicen Councell because it is a canon of the Councell of Sardica and those two Councels were esteemed as one and bound vp together in the Popes library Wherefore sith the Councell of Nice made no canons but the common twentie and they speake against the supremacie of the Pope euen by the Arabians owne interpretation whatsoeuer eyther Arabian or Roman hath coyned to the contrarie that must néedes bée counterfeit and the Pope is guiltie of theft and oppression by verdit of that famous Councell Whereto the Councell of Antioche doth ioyne their verdit too For they say as the Nicen not onely concerning the making of Bishops but also the determining of causes of the Church In so much that if a Bishop being accused the Bishops of the prouince agree not
and meaning of their whole sentences For the Councell of Afrike though bearing a while with the Popes claime till the Nicen canons whereby he claimed were serched yet at length condemned it as I haue shewed and of the foure generall Councels as the former two did enclose the Pope within his owne prouince or diocese at the most so did the two later of Ephâ—sus and Chalcedon confirming the decrées and canons of the former Hart. Nay doubtlesse at Chalcedon the Iudges hauing heard the former canons read sayd that they perceiued al primacie principall honour to be due to the Pope thereby Rainoldes But they added that the Patriarke of Constantinople ought to be vouchsafed of the same prerogatiues and primacie of honour As the Câ—uncell also it selfe allotted equall prerogatiues to them both ordeining therevpon that Constantinople should be magnified in ecclesiasticall matters as well as Rome and be next vnto it Wherein it is manifest that they meant preeminence of honour not of power For themselues decréed that the highest iudge of ecclesiasticall persons should be the Patriarke of the diocese or of Constantinople Wherby they gaue greater power to the Patriarke of Constantinople whom they authorised to deale in euery diocese then to the Roman Patriarke whom they tied to his own In so much that the Greekes say that all dioceses of the whole world were subiect to their Patriarke by the Councell of Chalcedon At least if the Councel haâ— an eye to power and not to honour only in willing them to be magnified yet that is a disproofe still of the Popes supremacie As you may learne by Gratian. Who séeking to proue it by the same canon renued in the Councell of Constantinople hath helped it with a negatiue and where the Councell sayd Let Constantinople be magnified as well as Rome he alleageth it let not Constantinople be magnified as well as Rome Hart. The Councell which that canon was renued in is vntruly called the sixth general Councel For they made no canons Rainoldes Yet a Councell made them in Constantinople with credit of a generall And the next generall Councell did confirme them Which thereby disproued the Popes supremacie too Yea againe the next defined of the Pope as of other Patriarkes and that vpon the ground of the famous Nicen. To be short the visible Monarchie of the Church was neuer allowed to him by any Councell generall or prouinciall vntil the East Churches were rent from the West and the Italian faction did beare the sway in Councels Hart. What meane you to say so wheras the Councell of Lateran vnder InnoceÌ„tius did approue it flatly the Patriarks of the Churches of Constantinople and Ierusalem being present Rainoldes Not the right Patriarkes I trow Though if they had bene yet might the Italians make decrées in Lateran at Rome without them But nether did that Councell approue the Popes Monarchie For the Popes Monarchie is a full and absolute soueraintie of power ouer the whole Church Wherevpon the principall proctours of it teach that not a generall Councell is aboue the Pope but the Pope aboue the CouÌ„cel For they sayth Father Robert who hold that the Councel is aboue the Pope do make him like a Duke of Venice aboue euery magistrate and senatour in seuerall not aboue the whole Senate But he is aboue the whole Church absolutely and aboue the generall Councell so that he acknowledgeth no iudge on earth aboue him Now the soueraintie of ordinarie power geuen to the Pope ouer all Churches by the Councell of Lateran vnder Innocentius was but as it were a Dukedome of Venice ouer euery Church and Bishop in seuerall not ouer the whole Church A signorie of great state but not a Popes Monarchie His Monarchie was neyther allowed by that Councell nor by any other for many ages after nay it was condemned expresly by the Councell of Constance of Basil. The first that allowed it was the Councell of Lateran vnder Leo the tenth a thousand fyue hundred and syxtéene yeres after Christ. Hart. Nay the Councel of Florence had allowed it a fourescore yeres before the Greeke and Latin Bishops subscribing both thereto Rainoldes But in such sort that your Roman reader though making the most thereof for the Popes credit was fainâ— yet to say that the Councel of Florence did not define it so expressely In truth the Greeke Bishops answered of themselues for they might not treate thereof without consent they sayd of their whole Church but of themselues they answered that the Pope ought to haue the same prerogatiues that he had before the time of their dissension Which is a great presumption that when they subscribed to more then the same it was not of themselues Chiefly sith they came besides so constrainedly to that which they did and refused to obey the Pope when they had done it But Leo the tenth with his Italian faction in Lateran defined it From whom the Uniuersitie of Parise appealed straight to a Councell and condemned his Lateran doctrine and decrée as the Uniuersities of Lâ—uan of Coolein of Vienna and of Cracouia had done before also The consent therefore of Pastours and Doctours throughout all Christendome hath disallowed the Popes Monarchie And that which the Pastours and Doctors deliuered was the religion of their Churches Whereby you may sée the truth of that I sayd that except the crew of the Italian faction all Christian Churches haue condemned his vsurped soueraintie Hart. Truly I must confesse I sée more probabilitie on your side then I did But in that you said that all Christian Churches haue condemned it and doe till this day you forgot your selfe who granted before that by the Trent-doctrine the Pope is aboue the Councell For the doctrine agreed on by the Councell of Trent which you call the of Trent-doctrine is held by Catholike Christians through the whole Church at this day Rainoldes I said that all Christian Churches haue condemned it and doe except the crew of the Italian faction Which spéeche agréeth well with that I said before of the Councell Trent For the Trent-doctrine of the Popes supremacie is that which the Italian faction at Trent did ouerbeaâ—e the rest in As Claudius Espencaeus a Diuine of Parise a Doctour of your own witnesseth saying that Ludouicus the Cardinall of Arle did complaine iustly at the Councell of Basil that looke what the Italian nation liketh of that is decreed in Councels this is that Helena which did preuaile of late at Trent Now that which the Cardinal Ludouicus spake of was that in Councels not only Bishops but Elders too should haue voices as of old time they had for if Bishops only haue voices sayth the Cardinall then shal that be done that shall seeme good to the Italian nation which alone
trust in him stirre vp our loue towardes him and pray vnto him hartily increase our faith forgeue our sinnes in a word that we may runne the whole race of our life with greater stedfastnes and constancie Then sith these things are thus it is to be concluded that the godly are lead by the holy Ghost into all trueth and holinesse euen to saluation but to this saluation they are so lead that they are not frée from all spot and wrincle either of maners or of doctrine Touching which point on the one side in respect of maners Sebastian Castellio hath erred very shamefully holding this hereticall opinion amongst others that the regenerate are able to performe the law of God perfitly which thing it is blasphemous to affirme of any but of Christ onely On the other side in respect of doctrine Hosius the Cardinall hath ouershot him selfe as fowly saying that euerie one of the elect may erre as by S. Cyprians example he sheweth but that all the faithfull gathered together in one cannot erre which is a fansy of a man that would build castles in the ayre It is a matter therefore most sure and out of dout that the elect and chosen may erre as in maners so in doctrine too though in such sort that they shall not die but liue notwithstanding and be cured of their errors Marry that they who are not chosen but onely called may erre euen to death as well in doctrine as in maners in maners it appeereth by the example of Iudas who was brought through couetousnes to betray Christ in doctrine we may sée by those monstrous heretikes of whom S. Iohn saith they went out from vs but they were not of vs. Wherefore sith both the chosen and the called may erre the one to their triall the other to their destruction and the church militant consisteth of none but of the called and the chosen that which I proposed is prooued sufficiently that the militant church may erre not onely in maners but in doctrine also If any man for proofe thereof require examples hée hath the churches of Galatia of Corinth of Pergamus of Thyatira of Sardis and of Laâ—dicea All the which to omit examples of our owne time the scripture witnesseth to haue erred some of them in maners some in doctrine some in both Yea the very church of Ephesus it selfe which Christ shewed to Iohn in the figure of a candlesticke because it held the light of life which Timothee abode in when Paul wrote vnto him that the church is the piller and ground of the truth euen this church of Ephesus was impaired so greatly by leauing of her first loue that Christ did therefore threaten her he would remoue her candlesticke out of his place vnlesse shee repented She repented not but by litle and litle became woorse woorse and heaped faut vpon faut yea many fautes vpon one both in maners and doctrine Therefore Christ remoued her candlesticke out of his place the chosen who shined with the light of faith he gathered to himselfe the called who hated the light he gaue ouer to darkenes the shadow of death the godly he made pillers in the temple of his God the hypocrites the filth of the temple he cast out to the dunghill of the vngodly and he left the citie of Ephesus desolate to wicked Mahomets impietie Now that may befall to euery one as they say which may befall to any one Then looke what hath befallen to the Church of Ephesus that may to euery Church But the Church of Ephesus was shaken first and crased afterwarde quite ouerthrowne and being hereft of the light of Christ is now a Church no longer Then is there no Church vpon the face of the earth howsoeuer it flatter it selfe with those titles of the candlesticke of Christ piller of the truth there is no Church I say whose bodie that is the chosen may not be ouertaken with faintnesse and darkenesse whose dregges that is the hypocrites may not be consumed with rottennesse and destruction finally whose whole frame constitution may not be depriued both of strength and beautie I know that the Papists answere hereunto that the militant Church may erre for the flockes the people that are in it but the guides and Pastours whose assemblie is called the Church by Christ saying tell the Church can not Which is false and fond For as there are sheepe and goates in the flockes so the Pastours of them are good hirelinges or theeues The good ones do slumber sometimes as the Apostles the hirelinges fly assoone as the woolfe commeth the theeues come to steale to kill and to destroy Wherefore no Pastour is exempt from danger of erring more or lesse And for the former point that they may erre in maners what néede I bring Apostles or Prophets to proue it The complaint of Bernard is fresh I would to God it were not too fresh there creepeth an owgly rot at this present through the whole body of the Church Which wordes being spoken in reproof of the life and conuersation of the Prelates that is of the Bishops Pastours of the Church doo shew that not a common disease but a rot and that not small but ougly and that creeping on not kéeping at a stay may infect not onely this or that member but the whole body of Pastors for their maners Now that they may also be ouerseene in doctrine and erre in pointes of faith it is plainely proued by those Corinthian Pastours who built hay and stubble vpon the foundation that S. Paul had layde by them of whom S. Peter foretelleth that there should be false teachers in the new Church as in the old there were false prophets by Samosatenus Arius Nestorius Pastors of famous Churches and autors of most heinous heresies yea by the Bishops of the whole world who all were Arians in a maner when there were scarce left a few Catholiks when the whole world did grone wonder at it selfe that it was become an Arian But the Papistes will reply that when they say the Church caÌ„not erre they meane the Church in that sense in which the Schoole-men call it representatiue that is Bishops and Prelates representing the whole church in a generall Councell What And hath that Church I meane a generall Councell this priuilege that it can not erre They hold so in deede But what will they say of so many Councels of the Arians which caused Gregorie Nazianzene to despaire that any good would be doon by Councels But they deny these to haue béene lawfull Councels What will they answere then to those which them selues confesse to haue béene lawfull The Councell of Laodicea though a prouinciall Councell yet allowed by a generall did set downe the same Canon of the scriptures which both the olde Church had
the shew of wordes UUherefore it was néedfull sith we séeke herein to finde out Christes will that first we agreed what way the right sense of the scripture may be knowne UUhich séeing you would haue me to fetch from the Pope and I haue no lust to go vnto Rome nor thinke it lodgeth in the Vatican so that by this way no agréement can be made or ende of controuersie hoped for I will take a shorter and a surer way confessed by vs both to be a good way whereby the right sense of the scripture may be found and so the will of Christ be knowne Hart. UUhat way may that be Rainoldes To learne of Christ him selfe the meaning of his word and let his spirit teach it that is to expound the scripture by the scripture A golden rule to know and try the truth from errour prescribed by the Lord and practised by his seruants for the building of his church from age to age through all posteritie For the holie Ghost exhorting the Iewes to compare the darker light of the Prophetes with the cléerer of the Apostles that the day-brigtnesse of the Sonne of righteousnes may shine in their hartes saith that no prophecy of Scripture is of a mans owne interpretation because in the prophecie that is the scripture of the Prophetes they spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost not as the will of man did fansie UUhich reason sith it implieth as the Prophetes so the Apostles and it is true in them all the holie men of God spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost it followeth that all the scripture ought to be expounded by God because it is inspired of God as natures light hath taught that he who made the law should interpret the law This rule commended to vs by the prescript of God and as it were sanctified by the Leuites practise in the olde Testament and the Apostles in the new the godlie auncient Pastors and Doctors of the church haue followed in their preaching their writing their deciding of controuersies in Councels UUherefore if you desire in déede the churches exposition and would so faine finde it you must go this way this is the churches way that is the churches sense to which this way dooth bring you For S. Austin whose doctrine your selfe doo acknowledge to be grounded on the lawes the maners the iudgementes of all the catholike church whom you call a witnesse of the sincere truth and catholike religion such a witnesse as no exception can be made against who assureth you as you say not onely of his owne but also of the common the constant faith and confession of the ancient Fathers and the Apostolike church this S. Austin hath written foure bookes of Christian doctrine wherein he purposely entreateth how men should vnderstand the Scripture and expound it The summe of all his treatise doth aime at this marke which I haue pointed too that the meaning of the Scripture must be learned out of the Scripture by the consideration of thinges and wordes in it that the ende whereto the matter whereof it is all writen be marked in generall and all be vnderstood according to that end and matter that al be read ouer ouer those things chiefly noted which are set downe plainly both precepts of life and rules of beliefe because that all things which concerne beliefe and life are plainly written in it that obscure darke speeches be lightned and opened by the plaine and manifest that to remoue the doubt of vncertaine sentences the cleere and certaine be followed that recourse be had vnto the Greeke and Hebrue copies to cleare out of the fountaines if the translation be muddie that doubtfull places bee expounded by the rule of faith which we are taught out of the plainer places of the scripture that all the circumstances of the text bee weighed what goeth before what commeth after the maner how the cause why the men to whom the time when euery thing is saide to be short that still wee seeke to know the will and meaning of the Authour by whom the holie Ghost hath spoken if we finde it not yet giue such a sense as agreeth with the right faith approued by some other place of scripture if a sense be giuen the vncertaintie wherof cannot bee discussed by certaine and sure testimonies of scripture it might be proued by reason but this custome is dangerous the safer way far is to walke by the scripture the which being shadowed with darke and borowed words when we mind to search let either that come out of it which hath no doubt and controuersie or if it haue doubt let it be determined by the same scripture through witnesses to be found vsed thence wheresoeuer that so to conclude all places of the scriptures be expounded by the scriptures the which are called Canonical as being the Canon that is to say the rule of godlines and faith Thus you sée the way the way of wisedome and knowledge which Christ hath prescribed the church hath receiued S. Austin hath declared both by his preceptes and his practise both in this treatise and in others agréeably to the iudgement of the auncient Fathers Which way sith it is lyked both by vs and you though not so much followed of you as of vs I wish that the woorthinesse thereof might perswade you to practise it your selfe but it must enforce you at least to allow it Hart. I graunt it neither can nor ought to be denyed that euery one of those things and specially if they be ioined all togither doo helpe very much to vnderstand the scriptures rightly But yet they are not so sure and certaine meanes as some other are which we preferre before them Neither do they helpe alwaies nay sometimes they do hurt rather and deceiue greatlie such as expound the Scripture after them This is not onelye said but also proued at large out of the Doctors and Fathers by that worthie man of great wit and iudgement our countriman M. Stapleton Doctor of Diuinitie the Kinges Professor of controuersies in the vniuersitie of Doway Of whose most wholesome worke entitled A methodicall demonstration of doctrinall principles of the faith one booke is wholly spent to shew the meanes way and order how to make authenticall interpretation of the Scriptures In the which hee layeth this for a ground that the Scripture cannot be rightly vnderstood but by the rule of faith Whereupon he condemneth the Protestantes opinion that the sense of Scriptures must be fetched out of the Scriptures Which errour of yours to ouerthrow the more fully he deliuereth foure meanes of expounding the Scriptures the first very certaine and sure the rule of faith the next no lesse certaine the practise of the church the third at least probable the consent of the Fathers the last most
persecution though they repented after refused to communicate with them and thereupon did separate themselues from the societie of the Catholike church and assemblies of the faithfull as vncleane also for that they receiued into their felowship and communion vpon repentaunce such as had fallen Against these Nouatians the firebrands of schismes and dissensions in the Church S. Cyprian hath writen a notable treatise touching the vnitie of the church wherein he dooth instruct and exhort Christians to keepe the vnitie of spirit in the bond of peace and be at concord among them selues And to winne this of them by reasons and perswasions out of the holy scripture as among the rest hee bringeth sundrie figures wherein is represented the vnitie of the church as the arke of Noe the coate of Christ the house of Rahab the lambe of the Passouer so among the figures he placeth Peter first in that our Sauiour said to him Thou art Peter and on this stone wil I build my church To thee will I geue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen againe Feede my sheepe For albeit Christ saith he gaue equall power to all the Apostles after his resurrection and said As my father sent me so I send you receiue ye the holy Ghost whosoeuers sinnes ye remitte they are remitted to them whosoeuers sinnes y◠reteyne they are reteyned yet to declare vnitie he disposed by his authoritie the originall of that vnitie beginning of one No doubt the rest of the Apostles were the same that Peter was endued with like felowship both of honour and of power but the beginning doth come from vnitie that the church of Christ may be shewed to be one Now this place of Cyprian which by the former printes was thought to make rather for an equalitie of all the Apostles in power then a supremacie of one as it dooth in deede is farsed with such wordes in the Romane Cyprian that in shew it maketh for Peters supremacie and so for a supremacie in power like the Popes as you teach men to gather of it For wher it was in Cyprian that the rest of the Apostles were equall both in honor and power vnto Peter but the beginning doth come from vnitie the Romane Cyprian addeth these words and the primacy is geuen vnto Peter Where it was in Cyprian that Christ did dispose the originall of vnitie beginning from one the Romane Cyprian addeth he appointed one chaire And againe where Cyprian said that the church of Christ may be shewed to be one the Romane Cyprian addeth and the chaire to be one This was well to beginne with that vnto Peter the primacy is geuen that Christ appointed one chaire and as the church must be one so the chaire must be one Yet because one chaire in Cyprians language dooth make no more for the chaire of the bishoppe of Rome then of the bishop of Carthage the Cyprian of Anwerpe to helpe the matter forwarde doth bring in Peters chaire And where it was in Cyprian euen in the Romane print too Hee who withstandeth and resisteth the church doth he trust him selfe to be in the church the Anwerp Cyprian addeth Hee who forsaketh Peters chaire on which the church was founded dooth he trust himselfe to be in the church So whereas aforetime S. Cyprian shewed the vnitie of the church in an equalitie of Peter with the rest of the Apostles now by good handling hee sheweth Peters primacie and that by good expounding is the Popes supremacie For we must imagine that by Peters chaire is meant the Popes chaire which chaire be forsaketh who is not obedient and subiect to the Pope according to Gratian in the canon law The only difficultie and scruple that is lefte to breede a doubt thereof in suspicious heads is that clause of Cyprian that Christ gaue equall power to all the Apostles and the rest were the same that Peter was endued with like felowship both of honor and of power Which wordes if you could hansomly take away out of him in some new print and why not take away so few as well as adde so many then would this be a passing fine place for you to perswade men that the vnity of the church doth presuppose your one chaire to which all must be subiect who wil be of the church and that they by consequēt are no right Christians who stand against the Popes supremacie Hart. You are much to blame to lay vnto our charge the corrupting of Cyprian chiefly in those editions which are best and soundest the Romane of Manutius and Anwerp of Pameliu◠For Pius the fourth a Pope of worthy memory desirous that the Fathers should be set forth corrected most perfitly and cleansed from all spots sent to Venice for Manutius an excellent famous printer that he should come to Rome to doo it And to furnish him the better with all things necessarie thereto he put fower Cardinals very wise and vertuous in trust with the worke Now for the correcting and cleansing of Cyprian specially aboue the rest singular care was taken by Cardinall Borromaeus a copie was gotten of great antiquitie from Verona the exquisite diligence of learned men was vsed in it Wherefore I am perswaded that whatsoeuer they did adde vnto Ciprian they did not adde it rashly or of their owne head but with good aduise vpon the warrant of writen copies Which although they haue not declared in particular yet may we gather it by Pamelius a Canon of the Church of Bruges and Licentiat of diuinitie by whom the Anwerp-Cyprian was afterward set foorth For he doth note that al the words which you spoke of added by Manutius in the Romane-print he appoynted one chaire and the chaire to be one and the primacie is geuen vnto Peter are in a written copie of the Cambron-abbey which was the best of all the copies that he had Yea those of Peters primacie not onely in that copie but in an other too which Cardinall Hosius occupied As for the rest which were added by himselfe in the print at Anwerp he who forsaketh Peters chaire on which the church was founded doth hee trust himselfe to bee in the church hee noteth that they also are in the Cambron-copie and confirmed by Gratian who hath the same words and citeth them with Cyprians name Whereby you may perceiue that wee haue not corrupted those places of Cyprian either in the Roman-print or the Anwerpe we haue corrected rather that which was corrupt But I see the Poet hath said very truely Nothing is done so well but with euill speeches a man may depraue it Rainoldes And it is as truely said by the Orators Nothing is done so euil but with faire colours a man may defēd it The Pope sent for Manutius to print the Fathers corrected he appointed foure Cardinals to see the worke done Cardinall Borromaus had singular care of Cyprian
the Spirit of truth and whether any of them were who can say We haue no assurance then of mysticall senses which may be mens fansies Onely the literall sense which is meant vndoubtedly by the holy Ghost is of force to proue the assured truth and therefore doth binde in matters of beliefe And this is so cléere that your owne Doctors acknowledge it and teach it euen he whom you alleaged For he saith It is agreed betweene you and vs that forcible aguments ought to be drawne onely from the literall sense and that is surely knowne to be the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost As for mystical senses it is not alwaies sure whether the holy Ghost meant them vnlesse they be expounded in the scriptures as that in Iohn you shall not breake a bone of him Which excepted it is a folly to go about to proue the pointes of faith forcibly by mysticall senses Wherefore if it be not expounded in the scriptures that the wordes of Christ touching one Pastor are meant as of him selfe by the literall sense so by the mystical of the Pope you sée that Father Robert saith it is a folly to go about to proue the Popes supremacie by them if you will proue it forcibly Now what I say of one Pastour the same I say of high Priest By whom the law of Moses doth signify the hye priest literally the epistle to the Hebrewes doth shew that mystically he betokened Christ. But that the Pope was meant by him in any sense eyther literall or mysticall I finde not in the scriptures Hart. But I find in the scriptures that Christians must stil haue a hye Priest amongst thē on earth to be their chief iudge Rainoldes Were finde you that Hart. In the seuentéenth chapter of the booke of Deuteronomie euen in these wordes If there rise a matter too hard for thee in iudgement betweene blood and blood betweene cause cause betweene plague and plague in the matters of controuersie within thy gates then shalt thou arise and goe vp to the place which the Lorde thy God shall choose and thou shalt come to the Leuiticall priestes and to the iudge that shall be in those dayes and aske and they shall shew thee the sentence of iudgement And thou shalt do according to that thing which they shall shewe thee from that place that the Lord shall choose and thou shalt obserue to do according to all that they shall enforme thee According to the law which they shall teach thee and according to the iudgement which they shall tell thee shalt thou doo Thou shalt not decline from the thing which they shall shew thee neither to the right hand nor to the left And he that shall presumptuously refuse to obey the commandement of the Priest who serueth then the Lord thy God by the decree of the iudge shall that man dye and thou shalt take away euil out of Israell Here the hye Priest is made the chiefe iudge to heare and determine hard and doubtfull causes amongst the people of God And who amongst Christians is such a Priest and iudge but the Pope onely Rainoldes Now the first chapter of the booke of Genesis would serue you as well to proue the Popes supremacie if it were considered For it is written there In the beginning God created the heauen and the earth Hart. What meane you so to say Rainoldes Nay aske that of him who doth expound it so saying that whosoeuer resisteth his supremacy resisteth Gods ordinance vnlesse he faine as Manichee did that there are two beginninges which is false hereticall because as Moses witnesseth not in the beginninges but in the beginning God created heauen and earth See in the beginning not in the beginninges and therefore not many are hye Priestes of the Church but the Pope onely Hart. The place which I alleaged doth plainely speake of the high Priest and so it doth serue my purpose more fitly then this which doth not touch him Howbeit as learned men when they haue proued a point by stronger arguments are wont to set it foorth with floorishes of lighter reasons rather to polishe it as it were then to worke it and frame it so the Pope hauing brought better euidence for proofe of his supremacie doth trimme it vp with this of Genesis as you would say by an allusion Rainoldes An illusion you should say But the places both as well this of Genesis as that of Deuteronomie are taken in a mysticall sense of your owne so that to winne a matter which must be wunne by sound proofe they are both of like force because that neyther is of any For the literall sense of that in Deuteronomie doth concerne the Iewes to whom the Lorde spake it by his seruant Moses Now how dangerous it is to buyld as vpon scripture thinges which are not grounded vpon the literal sense thereof we may learne by the mysticall sense of that place which a Pope giueth and no common Pope but Innocentius the third the Father of the Lateran-councel in which your popish Shrift and Transsubstantiation were enacted first He in a decretal which is enrolled in the canon law as a rule of the gouernemēt of the Church for euer doth bring foorth that same place of Deuteronomie to proue that the Pope may exercise tēporal iurisdiction not onely in his owne dominion but in other countries too on certaine causes And because Deuteronomi◠is the second lawe by interpretation it is proued saith he by the force of the worde that what is there decreed ought to be obserued in the newe Testament Upon the which principle he doth expound it thus that the place which the Lord hath chosen is Rome the Leuiticall Priestes are his brethren the Cardinals the iudge is himselfe the vicar of Christ the iudgements are of three sortes the firs◠betweene blood and blood is meant of criminall ciuil causes the last betweene plague and plague of ecclesiastical and criminall the midle betweene cause cause pertaineth vnto both ecclesiasticall ciuill In the which when any thing shal be hard or doubtfull recourse must be had to the iudgement of the See Apostolike that is of Rome whose determination if any man presumptuously refuse to obey he is adiudged to dye that is to be cut off as a dead man from the communion of the faithfull by excommunication Lo this is a mysticall sense of that place which you alleaged out of Deuteronomie It runneth verie roundly with the Popes supremacie But Christian States I hope will hold the literall sense against it For if they allow this doctrine of Pope Innocentius as catholike the Pope must be supreme head of all Christians both in ecclesiasticall causes and ciuill The mysterie of iniquitie did worke verie fast when the chiefest mysteries of the Romish faith were built vpon such mystical senses Hart. I
Monothelites Whereto Onuphrius addeth the authorities of Emmanuell Callêca a Grecian and Iohn of Turrecremata Cardinal of San-sisto who haue proued by their writings that he was a Catholike Bishop Rainoldes Haue proued Nay they would had not their proofes failed But is not this a straunge answere The question is touching Honorius a Pope who liued almost a thousand yeares ago what he taught in a point of faith The Bishops who liued about the same time not many fewer then two hundred or as some write three hundred do say and proue their saying by his owne writings that he taught erroneously as the Monothelites Platina Sabellicus Nauclerus Blondus Siluius Callêca and Turrecremata seuen of the Popes freends of whom the eldest liued aboue sixe hundred yeares after him doo affirme the contrary Whether of these are likelier to know and say the truth thereof Hart. But there are also in the Popes librarie the writings of Maximus who liued about the same time And it is plaine by him that Honorius did not subscribe to that heresie yea that of a certainetie he did condemne it Rainoldes Onuphrius might say so and as he thought safely because it was not likely that we should see Maximus in the Popes librarie to disproue his saying But it is disproued by your owne Andradius Who discoursing hereof to shewe that it is not certaine that Honorius did first condemne the heresie of the Monothelites though Platina and Sabellicus and Blondus and Aeneas Siluius say he did for Theophanes saith he and Anastasius historians much ancienter then they do write that Iohn the fourth Pope after him was the first who did it And Maximus as it is well noted by Torrensis a singular learned man hauing purposly vndertaken to cleere Honorius of that heresie made not any mention of his condemning it though if it had beene so he must haue knowne it needes and could not haue omitted it Now this Torrensis whom Andradius prayseth hath alleaged that whole place of Maximus touching Honorius whereof the summe is this that the secretarie of Honorius who wrote the verie epistle that he was charged by and knewe belike his meaning best expounded part thereof in a good sense that it might seeme sounde And this is that Maximus in the Popes library by which your Onuphrius doth take it to bée plaine or at the least would haue vs take it that Honorius did neuer subscribe to that heresie yea that of a certaintie he did condemne it But sée what difference betwéene men Andradius who alloweth the secretaries exposition which Maximus alleaged to cléere Honorius of that heresie yet thinketh it plaine by that place of Maximus that hee did not condemne it Torrensis a friend of the Popes too declareth that a part of the epistle of Honorius is helped reasonably by the secretaries exposition but it fitteth not another parte thereof in which it is plaine by his owne wordes that he was a Monothelite So Torrensis who had accesse to the Popes library as well as Onuphrius hath shewed that Onuphrius did meane to steale a lye by sending vs to Maximus in the Popes library As for Maximus himselfe he was loth for good will both to Honorius and the truth that the heretikes should boast as they did of such a patrone and therefore he desired to withdraw him from them But the generall Councell before which hée wrote found after on better examination of the matter that Honorius ioyned with them and taught as they did Wherefore whatsoeuer Maximus hath writen or rather wished of it the Councell is of greater credit then Maximus much more then Callêca or Turrecremata who could not say therein so much as Maximus and Maximus is the best that they say Hart. That which you alleage of the Councell were somewhat if they had condemned Honorius of that heresie But they did not although it be so writen in the Councell now For Anastasius the kéeper of the Popes library who liued within two hundred yeares after Honorius doth teach in his Latin historie out of Theophanes a Gréeke writer that the common copies of the sixth Councell were corrupted by the Grecians and the Canons thereof in the which Honorius is condemned were forged Rainoldes Canons what Canons There are no Canons of the sixth Councell in which Honorius is condemned Neither doth Anastasius or Theophanes say it Hart. No Sure Onuphrius saith as I saide And that which he saith he saith that Sirletus then a chiefe Notarie now Cardinall of Rome an excellent learned man had marked it Rainoldes A foule and grosse faute either of Sirletus or Onuphrius or both For there were two méetinges of Bishops at Constantinople which both doo beare the name of the sixth Councell the former vnder the Emperour Constantine the fourth about the yeare of Christ sixe hundred and eightie the later vnder his sonne Iustinian towarde a thirtie yeares after The former was assembled against the heresie of the Monothelites the Bishops of the west Church as well as of the east were present and they with one consent did al condemne Honorius In the later there met the Bishops of the east onely who made rules and orders of ecclesiasticall discipline which are the Canons that you mention These Canons doo conteine the summe of the ordinances of the Gréeke Church wherein the Church of Rome is grated vpon both for other pointes and chiefly for the Popes supremacie The Gréeke Bishops therefore to winne the more credit vnto their Canons said that they were made by the sixth generall Councell Of which they reported that when it was dimissed the verie same Fathers whom Constantine the Emperour assembled before were againe assembled by his sonne Iustinian after a foure or fiue yeares and ordained those Canons But Theophanes and Anastasius haue shewed that to be a tale as it is in déede and in discourse thereof haue saide of those Canons that they are falsly named the Canons of the sixth Councell Now Sirletus falling belike on these wordes and remembring that the sixth Councell is saide to haue condemned Honorius thought it either true or wholesome to be taught as true that hee was condemned by harlotrie Canons not made by the Councell but forged in the Councels name Which fansie peraduenture he told his friend Onuphrius and Onuphrius for ioy went and set it in print So by the conueiance of Onuphrius and Sirletus pretending and abusing the countenance and names of Anastasius and Theophanes the sixth generall Councell is put to silence as it were from bearing witnesse against Honorius But the mischiefe of it is that Torrensis againe doth marre the play For out of the histories of Theophanes and Anastasius which are not common to be séene he hath alleaged also this place touching those Canons Whereby it is manifest that their meaning was not to discredit the actions of the sixth Councell which condemned Honorius in the time
into paines of penance and penance into mines of siluer and golde they haue proclaimed Iubilees of pardons plenarie as they call them to all who came to Rome euery hundreth yeare and visited Churches there deuoutly these Iubilees they haue abridged from an hundred yeares to fiftie from fiftie to thirtie thrée from thirtie thrée to twentie fiue because all Christians came to not Rome for them they haue sent their pedlers abroad with pâ—ckes of pardons that all might buye them at their doores they haue reserued cases and crimes of greatest value as Simonie Sodomie offense of Church-liberty from which none might absolue but they and to absolue men vpon doing of penance they haue built at Rome a Papall exchange called the Penitentiarie where these absolutions are sold at certaine rates neither being satisfied by this exchaunge with the liuing they haue sold their wares vnto the dead also but the liuing must pay for them so many crownes so many soules to be forgiuen all their sinnes and rid out of the paines of purgatorie Thirdly by disposing of the Church-goods which they haue conueyed as the vniust but wise steward from the Lord to serue them selues they haue charged the liuinges of Churches and Churchmen with pensions tributes subsidies they haue exacted of them fifteenes tenthes fiftes thirdes moyities of their substance to the maintenance of warres which they haue waged with the Emperours they haue robbed benefices to enrich Abbeies by appropriations that afterwarde themselues might gleane the greater fruit of Abbeyes they haue made Prelates and such as would be Prelates to compound with them selues for palls for crosier-staues for miters for ringes for signing of billes and to compound with their seruants for writing perusing subscribing allowing conferring registring taxing receyuing keeping deliuering and for the coarde and lead wherewith their bulles are tyed and sealed they haue deuised new officers yea new heardes and companies of officers in their chauncery purposely to this intent that they might sell those roomes the which being sold for many thousand crownes they forced poore suters who came to Rome for grace or iustice to pay it by enhauncing the charges of their bulles the armie of their Registers Notaries Protonotaries Enditers Writers Abridgers Dataries Rescribendaries Accounters Soliciters Plummers Regarders Regentes Poursuiuants Clerkes of their Ceremonies Clerkes of their chamber Clerkes of their eschequer and infinite other peasantes they haue kept in wages with the price of Christians bloud they haue raised an yearely and ordinarie reuenue of first fruites of tithes of the goods of Abbats Bishops and Cardinals deceased which they haue seazed vpon as exectors and when they haue licensed them to make testaments yet haue they kept them selues a share as of euery Cardinall beside fiue hundred ducates which he payeth for his ring all his chappell-iewels ornaments and vessels whether of gold or siluer crosses candlestickes chalices Images and other such eschetes and in a word their ginnes hookes haue béene so many to get the goods of men out of al coastes into their coffers that a Roman Courtier saith the Popes eschequer is like vnto the Sea whereinto all riuers doo runne and yet it ouerfloweth not Fourthly by abusing of the Church-censures for what els should I call it when they haue vsed them as instruments of violence to compasse all that they did couet If any eyther Patrone or Bishop or Archbishop refused to commit the charge of English flockes to Roman pastors or rather woolues if any reproued the wicked sale and godlesse chaffer of their dispensations absolutions pardons if any would not yeelde to pay them such taxes as they required by their legats their marchants their collectors their nuntios spies poursuiuaÌ„ts straight as the person was so came a censure out against him either suspension from administring his office or interditement from vse of Church-seruice or excommunication from the felowship of Christians or citing him to Rome to chastise him by correption or denouncing him an heretike if he continued rebellious and then the secular power must burne him A practise so common that ordinarily the Auditour of the Popes Eschequer is autorized to excommunicate and execute other censures if the Courtisans who pay tribute for license to bee common whoores other farmers of holy rents kepe not touch in bringing in And because these censures haue not preuailed alwayes to atchieue their purposes therefore as they enlarged them against ciuill powers to purchase somewhat thence as from the king of England beside his Peter-pence a thousand markes yearely which yet was but a pety-larceny so they strengthned them against ecclesiasticall by the othe of fealty which they haue woon of Prelats to maintaine the Papacie and royalties of S. Peter Chiefly by winding in autoritie withal that they may depriue them and none may depriue Bishops but they That if Bishops will not agrée to them in all thinges when they are commanded in vertue of obedience yet for feare of léesing their liuinges and promotions yea their libertie yea their life if they be in the Popes subiection they may learne to serue their Lord. But the head of all whereby those wilde boares haue made the chiefest wast of the Lordes vineyarde is the fifth and last point their making and establishing of the Church-lawes For if they had doon and onely doon these vilanies they might séeme to haue doon them as men not as Popes and it might be hoped when one tyrant were gone the next would gouerne well But they haue confirmed the dooing of them by their lawes and procured those lawes to be receiued as canons rules of the Church-gouernment their Decretals their Clementines their Extrauagants in déed extrauagant their constitutions Apostolike and their vnruly rules of the Apostolike chauncerie The grosse intent and practise whereof is so palpable that Budaeus a learned lawier the French kinges secretarie making a complaint of the great disorder of the Popes and clergie doth lay the blame thereof vpon their lawes and iurisdiction It is growne saith he so much out of kinde from the auncient loue that where there was wont to be a motherly lappe of equitie and goodnes there seemeth now to be a shoppe of law-quarels and lewder meanes to gaine by Thence come those snares of processes and cautions of the Popes ordinances deuised to deceiue the houshold of the Lord. Thence come the punishments of sinne by the purse to the encrease of Prelates profits Thence the sacrilegious cursed sales of those things which cannot be brought into mens traffike without abomination I omit their dispensations which giue leaue for money to sinne without punishment and licence the breach of sacred lawes for filthie lucre So the holy canons and rules of church discipline made in better times to guide the life of cleâ—gie men are now become leaden rules such as Aristotle saith the rules of Lesbian building were For
as leaden and soft rules doo not direct the building with an equall tenour but are bowed to the building at the lust of the builders so are the Popes canons made flexible as lead and waxe that now this great while the decrees of our auncestors and the Popes canons serue not to guide mens maners but that I may so say to make a banke and get money These thinges wrote Budaeus before Luther stirred against the Popes pardons So manifestly tended the lawes of the Popes to their owne profit and not to the Churches euen in the eyes of sober Papistes And thus haue you the summe of that which I said you might learne by the writings of your owne men Onuphrius and Sansouinus For whereas the Fathers of the Councell of Basill entending and endeuouring to reforme the Church did straiten the fulnes of the Popes power by cutting off the most of his reseruations all his aduowsons and compositions by abbridging his citations dispensations appeales the number and liuinges of his Cardinals and chiefly by defining after the Councell of Constance that the Pope is bound to obey the Councell and so is subiect to it Onuphrius saith thereof that they vnder pretense of reforming the church did seeke to take away and abrogate altogether the most of the priuileges of the church of Rome yea them that were most needfull Which sentence bewrayeth the mysteries that I spake off if it be marked well Chiefly if it be ioyned with his discourse of Cardinals and storie of the Popes liues wherein he declareth to what end they vsed those most needful priuileges Howbeit in their practise of the fowlest of them hee is somewhat close and partly doth smooth them partly doth passe them ouer But Sansouinus is more open though as a fréend also of the Popes state For setting forth the gouernment of the Court of Rome first in the Consistorie next in the Penitentiarie then in the Courts of requestes one of grace the other of iustice afterwarde in the Chauncerie and last of all in the Escheker he toucheth in effect as much as I haue said of the excesses of the Popes in ordeining the officers dealing with the causes disposing the goods abusing the censures and making lawes of the Church Yea a point more which sheweth manifestly their growing out of kinde from Bishoply state to Princely to wéete that there is an ordinarie Prelate called the Vicar of Rome to whom they haue commited the charge of al those thinges within the Romane diocese that belong to any Bishop in his diocese and so to them in theirs as Bishops of Rome properly In fine if any branch of the particular pointes wherewith I haue charged them be not so plaine and ful in Sansouinus or Onuphrius I shall declare it farther and proue it if you will by the records and testimonies of your owne Chroniclers Antiquaries Lawiers Doctors and Popes Whereupon I am content to make euen your selfe iudge M. Hart if the bogges of Popery haue not quenched all sparkles of conscience and iudgement in you whether that the Pope hath not erred in office and changed his Bishops Sée into a Princes Court and vsurped the power of imperiall State through shewes of Church-gouernment by rebelling against the Emperour and wresting his dominions from him by forâ—ing kings and nations to serue him as vasals by robbing peoples of their pastors pastors of their liuings the rude of instruction the loose of correction the distressed of comfort the poore of reliefe and to conclude the Christian Church of doctrine discipline and hospitalitie Iohn Rainoldes to the Christian reader When I sent this part of our conference to M. Hart that if any thing in his owne speeches were not to his minde he might adde or alter as he thought good I penned not his answere to my former speech but wrote these wordes vnder it I pray M. Hart make and penne your owne answere to this last speech of mine If you can iustifie the Pope in those things which I haue laid vnto his charge I will subscribe to all Popery If you cannot acknowlege his sumacie to be vnlawfull Iohn Rainoldes To this request offer M. Hart sent me his answere in writing Which I haue set downe here following word for word and so haue proceeded on in our conference as he desired me to doo If you speake vnfainedly M. Rainoldes as I trust you doo I must loue you the better for your plaine dealing in so weightie a matter That you doo not see how the Pope may be iustified I speake not of his naughtie and corrupt maners but of his supreme and soueraine authoritie which is as I take it agreeable to the Scripture and Christes owne appointment it séemeth to me that your errour herein procéedeth of a wrong perswasion that he had not that authoritie by right but vsurped it Which is not so as I haue alreadie shewed in part and now will proue vnto you farther For it is so farre off from being vsurped authoritie that if we will weigh thinges but with indifferencie and in equall balance you shall well perceiue that both Emperours and other Princes adioyning vnto him haue rather vsurped of his then he of theirs In so much that a good autour doth write that through the Popes negligent looking vnto it S. Peters patrimonie is greatly diminished Yea perhaps it is much lesse now at this time how great or how lordly soeuer it seeme in your eye then it was in the very best times almost thirtéene hundred yeares since For to beginne with the donation of Constantine the great he as Eugubinus writeth resigned to S. Syluester Pope and to his successors the citie of Rome with all his Imperiall roabes and ornaments him selfe retyring to Constantinople where he abode as in his Imperiall seate as also many other Emperours after him for many yeares togither did kéeping still either at Constantinople in the east or els at Milan and Rauenna in the west And this to be a certaine storie of the gift of Constantine to the Bishops of Rome besides very many witnesses which here I could cite for proofe therof as Ammianus Marcellinus a heathen who was sorie to sée it Photius Constantinopolitanus no fauourer of the Pope neither and a Grecian borne Nicephorus and many moe besides as you may reade in the Chronicles S. Damasus who liued about the same time and saw Constantine himselfe doth write of the said donation and gift of the Emperour Which gift moreouer to put it out of all doubt was confirmed a hundred yeares after by the Emperour Iustinian by Arithpert king of the Lombardes by king Pipine of Fraunce Charles the great holy king Lewes and lastly by Otho the great at a Councell holden at Rauenna as your owne men in their Centuries doo graunt and confesse For although they
new For Austin who saw Ieroms preferred still the olde translation before it Gregorie who liued about two hundred yeares after doth vse them both indifferently because the Church of Rome did so but liketh better of the new And so in processe of time the new translation did preuaile and the olde was wholy left saue in the Psalmes onely which being soong in Churches had taken déeper roote then could be plucked vp by Ierom. Now sith those epistles of the Bishops of Rome doo alleage the scriptures after that translation which the Fathers called the new you call the olde and it was so long after Ieroms time before that translation was growne to such credit that it had shut the other out it is probable that they were writen long after but whether long or short it is certaine that they were writen after Ieroms time Hart. It is true that Anacletus and the rest of those Bishops who liued before S. Ieroms time must néedes vse that translation which the Fathers call the olde And so doth Turrian answere they did in these epistles Rainoldes The contrarie is plaine by the epistles themselues in euerie one of them Hart. I but Turrian saith that when these epistles were first set abroad to the vse of the Church that they might come to all mens knowlege then was it thought good because S. Ieroms translation was in all mens hands that many places which were cited according to the other should be changed and cited according to S. Ieroms translation Rainoldes But how doth Turrian proue that they were cited first according to the other Hart. Because sundrie sentences which in them are cited out of the Prophets would better fit the purpose if they had béene cited according to the other which was out of the Gréeke then according to S. Ieroms which is out of the Hebrewe For example in the first epistle of Pope Alexander that text is alleaged out of the Prophet Zacharie He that toucheth you toucheth the apple of mine eye as it is in Ierom. But the other translation out of the Gréeke should be He that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye that is of his owne eye and not of Gods In the which sort it had béene more fit for Alexander to cite it as Turrian doth proue by the circumstances of the text And the like he sheweth in two or thrée examples mo Rainoldes And thereof he concludeth that the Pope did cite it so As who say the Pope must needes doo that which was most fit Hart. Nay it doth not well agrée to his purpose vnlesse he did cite it so Rainoldes Whether it doo or no it is plaine that the autour meant not so to cite it For in the same epistle he saith that Priests and Bishops to whom he applieth it are called the eyes of the Lord. Which sith he saith on those wordes He that toucheth you toucheth the apple of mine eye it séemeth that hée meant eye not of his eye who toucheth but of Gods Neither had he meant otherwise if he had cited the words after the Gréek translation and not Ieroms For though it be in Gréeke He that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye as it is in Hebrewe and in the best copies of Ieroms Latin too yet the word his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is referred to the Lord of hostes whose care of his people the Prophet noteth by that spéech in like sort as Moses had also doon before him Wherefore if it agree not well in that sense to the purpose and drift of the Popes epistle in which it is alleaged as Turrian saith it doth not then himselfe confesseth that not all the scriptures are there alleaged fitly Which he cannot abide the Centuries should say But if this answere be good and allowable that when those epistles of the Popes were published the textes which could not be alleaged so by them were chaunged then is it impossible to bring any reason but you may shield them from it easily For if there be a point of order in discipline or doctrine in faith or the state of times or circumstances of persons and things whatsoeuer that is disproued by writers and witnesses of that age as there are infinite you may say that it was not so in the epistles but they who set them forth did alter that point For example in one of them which is fathered on Cornelius appeales vnto the See of Rome are approued But Cyprian doth shew that Cornelius agreed with him and other Bishops that causes should be ended where they began without appeales Hart. We shall neuer make an end if we stand on euerie particular that may be cauilled at It sufficeth me that all which you can say is set downe in the Centuries and that which they haue said is answered by Turrian This is Stapletons defense of those epistles and I content my selfe with it Rainoldes Not all which they haue said is answered by Turrian perhaps not this verie point about Cornelius But if you like so well of Stapletons policie to lay all on Turrian let vs leaue his dealing therein against the Centuries to be considered by the iury Whom I must request withall to consider of one reason more which they shall neither finde in Turrian nor in the Centuries Hart. What reason is that Rainoldes The iudgement of thrée learned men of your owne side Cusanus the Cardinall Bellarmin the Iesuit and Contius the famous Lawier For Cardinall Cusanus saying that peraduenture those epistles of Clemens and Anaâ—letus are counterfeit vpon the which they who would exalt the See of Rome more then is expedient and seemely for the holy Church doo ground them selues addeth for proofe thereof that if a man first did reade them ouer diligently applying the state of their times to those epistles and then were perfit in the workes of all the holy Fathers who liued vntill Austin Ierom and Ambrose and in the actes of Councels where true and authenticall writinges are alleaged he should finde this true that neither are the said epistles mentioned in any of those writings yea and the epistles being applyed to the time of those holy men do betray them selues Hart. Cusanus when he wrote these thinges was not Cardinall neither doth he affirme it but saith peraduenture and he mentioneth the epistles of Clemens and Anacletus onely not of all Rainoldes But his reasons of the contents and witnesses do touch them all as doth his drift also Nor saith he peraduenture of douting but of modestie for he addeth farther that things a great number doo proue it manifestly And though he were not Cardinall then yet he was Doctour of the Canon law and Deane of a Cathedrall Church and fit to be made Cardinall within a few yeares after Neither spake he of hatred to the Sée of Rome which he calleth the diuine the most excellent in all praise yea
standeth not so much in making Church-officers as in iudging Church-causes And therein the second sort of Popes auouched as much as the last For Innocentius the first answering the letters of the Councell of Mileuis who had writen to him about the errour of the Pelagians doth prayse them for referring the matter vnto him and I thinke saith he that as oft as a matter of faith is called in question all our brethren and felow-bishops ought not but to referre it vnto Peter that is the autour of their name and honour as now your charitie hath doon Rainoldes Thâ—se wordes of Innocentius may proue M. Hart that he claimed a preeminence of knowledge for your Peter not a soueraintie of power a preeminence of knowledge to resolue the Church-questions not a soueraintie of power to decide the Church-causes For matters of faith are to be defined by the rule of faith that is by the scriptures and the right opening of the scriptures lyeth not in power but in knowledge Which you may learne by Gratian in the Canon law saying that the Fathers are preferred before the Popes in expounding of scriptures because they passe them in knowledge the Popes before the Fathers in deciding of causes because they passe them in power Hart. That distinction of causes and questions of the Church is but a shift of sophstrie to cast a mist vpon the truth For though the Church-causes as Gratian speaketh of them do concerne persons the innocent to be acquitted or offenders to be condemned yet questions of faith which you call Church-questions are Church-causes too in a generall sense As one of the third sort of Popes saith that greater causes of the Church chiefly such as touch the articles of faith are to be referred to the See of Peter And this was the meaning of Innocentius the first For in his letters to the Councell of Carthage writen to like effect on the same occasion he saith that the Fathers decreed by the sentence not of man but of God that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces far of they thought that it ought not to be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome Rainoldes It is true that questions of matters touching faith are causes of the Church but they are not such causes as quicken the Papacie The causes touching persons which Zosimus Boniface and Caelestine did deale for when they would haue it lawfull for Bishops Elders to appeale to Rome are those which Popes must liue by And the same Councels of Carthage and Mileuis whom Innocentius wrote too did know and shew this difference when they desired the Popes consent in that of faith but forbadde the causes of Bishops and Elders to come vnto him by appeales Wherefore that distinction of the Church-causes and the Church-questions is not a shift of sophistrie to cast a mist vpon the truth but a point of truth to cléere the mist of your sophistry For your Iesuit citeth those textes of Innocentius to proue the Popes supremacie Whereas he claimeth iudgement to resolue the douts or that is lesse autoritie to approue the doctrine not a soueraine power to heare and determin the causes of the Church Hart. Nay his wordes are generall to the Councell of Carthage that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces farre off it should come to the notice of the See of Rome before it were concluded Rainoldes But if you doo racke that word whatsoeuer so farre beyond his drift you make him more gréedy then the last sort of Popes who claime the greater causes of the Church onely Wherefore as when S. Paul saith all thinges are lawfull for me he meaneth not all thingâ—s absolutely and simply but all indifferent thinges according to the point which he treateth of so must you apply the wordes of Innocentius not to whatsoeuer touching Church-causes but to matters of faith called into question which the Popes being learned then and Catholike the Christian Churches vsed to referre to them that the truth approued by their consent and iudgement might for their autoritie finde the greater credit fréer passage against heretikes Hart. What say you then to Leo the great or rather to S. Gregorie who had the Church-causes euen such as touched persons referred to their Sée and willed them to be so as their epistles shew Rainoldes In déede Leo and Gregorie are somewhat large that way Though Leo as the diocese of the Roman Patriarke was lesser in his time then afterwarde in Gregories so had fewer of them Gregorie had more yet he had not all Hart. Not all but all the greater And that is as much as the last sort of Popes claime Rainoldes But they claime all the greater through the whole world which Gregorie neither had nor claimed Hart. No Is it not manifest by all his Epistles that hée dealt with the causes of Bishops in Italie Spaine Fraunce Afrike Corsica Sardinia Sicilia Dalmatia and many countries mo Rainoldes Yet he dealt neither with all the greater causes nor through the whole world And this very shew of the names of couÌ„tries by which your Irish champion doth thinke the Popes supremacie to be cléerely proued is a demonstration in truth to disproue it For rehersing only those which you haue named with England Ireland Corcyra and Graecia and saying that Gregorie did practise the supremacie ouer their Bishops and Churches though neither prouing so much but admit he proued it yet in bringing only the names and proofes of these he sheweth that Gregorie did not practise it ouer the Bishops and Churches of Thracia Mysia Scythia Galatia Bithynia Cappadocia Armenia Pamphylia Lydia Pisidia Lycaonia Phrygia Lycia Caria Hellespontus Aegypt Iury Phoenicia Syria Cilicia Cyprus Arabia Mesopotania Isauria with the rest of the countries subiect to the Patriarkes of Constantinople Alexandria Antioche and Ierusalem Hart. Though S. Gregorie speake not of these particularly yet he sheweth in generall his supremacie ouer them For whereas the Patriarke saith he doth confesse himselfe to be subiect to the See Apostolike if any fault bee founde in Bishops I know not what Bishop is not subiect to it Behold not onely Bishops but the Patriarkes also subiect to the Pope by S. Gregories iudgement yea by their owne confession Rainoldes Nay it was not a Patriarke but a Primate who confessed that And a Primate is but a Bishop of the first and cheefest See in a Prouince that is a Metropolitan Hart. It was Primas Byzancenus that is to say the Patriarke of Constantinople as it is expounded in the glose on Gratian For Constantinople was called Byzantium first Rainoldes Gratian and his glose were deceiued both For primas Byzacenus or Byzancenus if you reade it so is Primate of Byzacium called Byzantium too which was a prouince of Afrike and therfore had a Primate as Councels of that countrie shew Whom and not the Patriarke
pillers yea by the Councell of the Apostles and Elders at Ierusalem and being so confirmed was receiued more redily and gladly both at Antioche and in other cities in so much that the Churches were stablished in the faith and increased in number daily The men of God therfore who in ancient time were assembled together to vphold the truth desired the consent some time of all Bishops as in the Councell of Sardica sometime of the Pope as in the Councell of Carthage not for that they thought that else their decrées should be of no force but because they knew that the consent of such would adde the greater credit to them And that generall Councels if they had desired the Pope to confirme them which all of them did not but if they had done so yet must haue done it in this consideration you may sée by a piller and ground of your Councel of Trent euen Andradius Who not only voucheth that most learned mē do most wisely thinke it as Alfonsus namely but alleageth also Cardinall Turrecremata the chéefest patrone of the Pope for proofe of the same or rather of a farther point For if there shoulde happen such a case sayth the Cardinal that al the Fathers assembled in a generall Councell should make a decree touching any matter of fayth with one accord and the Pope alone gainesaied that decree men ought in my iudgement to obey the Councell therein and not the Pope And why Because the iudgement of so many Fathers of a generall Councel seemeth to be iustly and worthily preferred before the iudgement of one man in a matter of faith Wherevpon he addeth that the Councell then is aboue the Pope not in power of iurisdiction but in autoritie of iudgement to discerne thinges and in amplenesse of knowledge Thus it is apparant by your owne Doctors that to confirme Councels importeth an autoritie the Pope had not power and that hée was not soueraine in autoritie neither no not as much as equall but inferiour to them So farre is it off from prouing his supremacie Hart. Though Councels be aboue the Pope in autoritie after the opinion of Cardinall Turrecremata yet you sée he setteth the Pope aboue them in power of iurisdiction wherin his supremacie doth principally stand And that did the Fathers acknowledge by their déedes too For Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria Paul of Constantinople Asclepas of Gaza Marcellus of Ancyra Lucian of Adrianople and very many other Bishops of the East being driuen out of their Churches by the Arians did appeale to the Pope as ecclesiasticall stories shew Rainoldes The stories shew it not but he who sayth they shew it sheweth that he dealeth with them in this point as in the former with S. Cyrill Hath he abused you so often and will you neuer cease to credit him Hart. The stories shew that they came to Rome to Pope Iulius and he for the prerogatiue and dignitie of his Sée restored them to their Churches perceiuing that the Arians had depriued them wrongfully Rainoldes The dignitie and prerogatiue of the See of Rome in restoring them was but of autoritie and honour not of power For the power of hearing and iudging their cause did rest in the Councell assembled then at Rome Which Iulius himself and Athanasius both do testifie Athanasius who speaking thereof ascribeth it plainly to the Councell Iulius who being reproued by the Arians for ouerthwarting that which they had done in their Councell answereth that the doinges of a former Councell may lawfully be sifted and examined in an other that themselues had offred to haue the cause debated so in iust iudgement and thereto had requested a Councell to be called that Athanasius and the rest appeered at the Councell and they who should haue also appeered made defaute that hereupon the Councell finding their iniquitie relieued the parties wrongfully oppressed to be short that whatsoeuer he dealt or wrote therein he did it on the Coūcels iudgement and consent not on his owne head Wherefore it was not the Pope but the Councell that heard and determined the causes of Bishops whether at first or on appeales Such power of iurisdiction nether did Iulius claime nor Athanasius giue him Hart. Yes there is an other epistle of Iulius wherein hée claimed such power and that vpon the canons of the Councell of Nice Rainoldes I told you of epistles which séemed to be written by some of the Popes horse-kéepers or cookes This is one of them It should be the very same that I alleaged extant in Athanasius But it is no liker it then black is to white The canons which it coineth with the image and superscription of the Nicen Fathers bewray the lewdnesse of it The more because Iulius in the same epistle as Athanasius hath it citeth their autoritie for the Councell aboue the Pope who in this are cited for the Pope aboue the Councell Wherefore sith Athanasius hath his right epistle as it is confessed you must be content to let the other go for a counterfeit Hart. Yet Socrates Sozomē report that Iulius wrote in his epistle to the Arians that whereas they called not him vnto the Councell therein they did vnlawfully because it was prouided by a law of the Church that things which were decreede and done without the Popes consent shoulde be voide Rainoldes If Iulius had writen so to the Arians Iulius had writen a manifest vntruth For by the Nicen Canons which were the chiefest lawes of the Church at that time it was ordered that Councels should be kept yeerely twise in euery prouince To all which it were ridiculous to say that they must call the Pope or that they might doo nothing there but what he liked of But Socrates and Sozomen did mistake Iulius as Stapleton doth now And whereas he had said know ye not that this is the maner and custome that ye should write to vs first that hēce might be decreed the thing which is iust they thought that he had spoken of himselfe belike and had meant the Pope by the word vs by which he meant the Councell For he wrote that epistle in the Councels name as Athanasius noteth and himselfe sheweth it by saying straight before ye ought to haue written vnto all vs that so that which is iust might be decreed by all Hart. Whatsoeuer you conceue of the doings and writings of Athanasius and Iulius yet can you not denie but Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople appealed to Pope Leo from the Councell of Ephesus deposing him vniustly And so did Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus too For the Emperour Valentinian witnesseth the one and Theodoret himselfe the other Rainoldes Flauianus appealed from the Councel of Ephesus but to a greater and a more lawfull Councell not to Pope Leo. Which appéereth by an epistle of Leo himselfe complayning to the Emperour Theodosius
Christ most holy Finally sith God hath called the holy church not out of this or that countrey not out of this or that people but out of all nations spred through the whole world for that cause the church is intitled Catholike that is vniuersall not Iewish not Roman not English not of one people or prouince but vniuersall and Catholike coÌ„pacted as it were into one body out of all sorts of estates sexes ages nations Iewes Heathens Greeks Barbarians bond and free men and wemen old and young rich and poore For both the old Church before the birth of Christ which saw the day of Christ to come and was saued did gather children of God vnto her selfe at first out of any people afterward when the grace of God shined chiefly among the people of Israel she did ioyne conuertes to Israel out of the rest and much more the new Church called since Christ was borne hath enlarged her tabernacle as Esay the Prophet speaketh to all nations beginning at Ierusalem Iudaea Samaria and going forward thence euen to the vttermost endes of the earth For God hath not called the circumcised Iewes alone to be his Church as the time was when the Apostles thought through a litle ouersight the Iewes in our dayes haue too presumptuously wéened but Christ being crucified hath broken the stoppe of the partition-wall and is become the chiefe stone of the corner on which a dooble wall ariseth and as Dauid prophecied the Egyptian the Babylonian the Tyrian the Aethiopian the Philistine are borne in Sion and as the Elders in whom is represented the company of the faithfull doo sing vnto Christ Thou hast redeemed vs to God by thy blood out of euery kinred and tounge and people and nation and hast made vs kings and priests to our God we shall raigne vpon the earth Wherefore sith the church which the holy scriptures doo commend vnto vs betokeneth the company and assembly of the faithfull whom God hath chosen Christ hath sanctified and called out of all nations to the inheritance of his owne kingdome the holy Ghost who spake by the Prophets and Apostles doth warrantise me to resolue on my Conclusion that the holy catholike church which we beleeue is the whole company of Gods electâ—and chosen You maruell perhaps why I propose this article of the ChristiaÌ„ faith to be discussed by disputation as though either any man stood in dout of it or things not douted of were to be handled as doutfull But if you consider that the true meaning therof which I haue opened most agréeable to the scripture most comfortable to the faithfull is condemned and accursed by the standerd-bearers of the church of Rome you will cease to maruell For in the Councell of Constance in which they condemned Iohn Husse for an heretike they condemned these two sayings as hereticall to be burned with him that there is one holy vniuersall Church which is the whole company of them that are predestinate and that the Church as it is takeÌ„ in this sense for the company of them that are predestinate is the article of our faith Which sayings of his to be counted vngodly it séemed strange to me and so much the more because I perceiued that the Fathers whose words the Papistes will séeme to make great account of when they serue their purpose did vse the same squire to measure out the Catholike church by For Clemens Alexandrinus dooth expresly call it the company of the elect into which are gathered the faithfull and iust whom God did predestinate before the creation of the world Likewise Ambrose hauing said that the honour of God the father is in Christ and in the church defineth the church to be a people which God hath vouchsafed to adopt to him selfe Furthermore Gregorie the Bishop of Rome affirmeth that all the elect are contained within the compasse and circuite of the church all the reprobate are without it And Bernard declaring the church to be the company of all the elect which company was predestinate before the world began doth touch it as a mysterie which he had learned of Paul and saith that he will boldly vtter it As for Austin a man of sharpest iudgement of them all he neither acknowledgeth any city of God but this elect church in his most lerned worke touching the citie of God and in another touching the catechizing of the vnskilfull he saith that all the holy and sanctified men which are which haue been which shal be are citizens of this heauenly Ierusalem and in another touching baptisme against the Donatists against whom he vrgeth the Catholike church most he confesseth that those things in the song of songs the garden inclosed the fountaine sealed vp the lilie the sister the spouse of Iesus Christ are meant of the holy and righteous alone who are Iewes inwardly by circumcision of the hart of which holy men the number is certaine praedestinate before the foundation of the world Wherefore if the Prelates of the Romish Church had had any reuerence I say not of the scriptuâ—es ouer which they play the Lordes as they list but of the Fathers of whom as of orphans they beare men in hand that they haue vndertooke the wardship they would neuer haue wounded or rather burnt in Husses person Clemens Alexandrinus Ambrose Gregorie Bernard and Austin who taught the same point that is condemned in Husse namely that the holy vniuersall Church is the whole company of the elect of God But it is I sée an vndouted truth which a learned man liking the Popes religion but not the Popes presumption hath set downe in writing that amongst the Popes and men like to Popes it is a sure principle If wrong he to be doon it is to be doon when thou maist get a kingdome by it For they wrest the holy catholike Church taught vs in the Creede from the right meaning to the intent they may be kings hoyse vp the sayles of their owne ambition in as much as they apply it like vnskilfull men if they doo it ignorantly impious if wittingly they apply it I say not to the Catholike Church but to the militant nor to that as it is choseÌ„ but as it is visible mingled with hypocrites and vngodly persons The cause why they do so is that all Christians by reason they beleeue the holy Catholike Church may be induced to thinke that the visible Church must be held for Catholike and a visible monarchie must be in the visible Church and the Pope is Prince of the visible monarchie and all Christians must be subiect to him as Prince For this to be the marke whereat the Popes shoote it is as cléere as the light by the verie Extrauagants as they are termed of the Canon law in that royall decrée of Boniface the eighth beginning with these wordes One holy Catholike Church Where from one
the which the ministers of God are remoued from gouernance by the Pope who being not a voluntarie Senator as Tully iesteth at Asinius himselfe chosen by him selfe but a voluntary tyrant doth take vpon him selfe the rule of the whole church Who to get the soueraintie that he aspireth to doth cast off the foly of Paul and of Peter and neither will him selfe nor suffereth his to be subiect vnto higher powers Who autoriseth him selfe to giue and take away the dominions and kingdomes of the whole world as if that all Princes held their right of him Who chalengeth the two swordes as he termeth them the spirituall and temporall and that by the gospell because it was saide for sooth by the Apostles Beholde herâ— are two swordes Who hauing committed the temporall sword in part to ciuill magistrates and reserued it in part to him selfe hath put vp the spirituall sworde of all Pastors into his owne sheath Who of church-ministers hath made him selfe Cardinals felowes of kinges gardians of Princes Protectors of nations a Senate meete for such a â—arquin Who exacteth an oth of Emperours of Bishops of Christian common wealthes Uniuersities and Churches to be obedient vnto him Who admitteth I say not Cornelius the Centurion which Peter yet would neuer haue doon but the Lordes of Centurions euen Kinges and Keisars Emperours and Empresses to kisse his blessed feete Finally who being in Princely attire and accompanied with Princely traine serued not by common but by noble men wearing not a single but a triplâ— Crowne called by his Parasites our Lord God the Pope by discréete Doctors most good in grace most great in power as full of riotous pompe and pride as euer were the Persian kings z His clothes bedeckt with precious stones â—his gorgeous miter dight With iewels rare with glistring gold with Pyropus bright O very Troian truls not Troians hath taken the state ecclesiasticall of Christ appointed in noble order as an army set in aray and hath transformed it as it were with an enchauntment of the whoore of Babylon into a visisible monarchie and kingdome of the Romans And that the old saying might be fulfilled new Lordes new lawes such lippes such lettise as one said of an asse that was eating thistles this new Prince the Pope hath brought in new lawes to gouerne his kingdome in stéede of Gods lawes which Christ would haue to rule his Church and in stéede of the Canon of the holy scriptures he hath ordeined his Canon law Touching the vnrighteousnes of the which law least any man should think me perhaps to finde fault with that I haue no skill in as the shoomaker did whom Apelles warned not to presume beyond his shooe I had leiffer you should heare the iudgement of a learned Doctour and professour of the law then mine Francis Duaren a man of great skill in both the lawes ciuill and canon and named amongst lawiers the chiefest lawier of our time hath writen a learned treatise touching the holy functions and liuings of the Church as it were an abridgement of the canon law allowed by the iudgement of the Parlament of Parisâ— and set foorth with the priuiledge of the French king that no man can iustâ—y 〈◊〉 either the autor or the worke as hereticall In 〈…〉 then of the said treatise declaring that the body of the Canon law consisteth of two parts to weete Decrees and 〈◊〉 Decrees which were gathered together by Gratian 〈◊〉 epistles writen by sundry Popes he saith that in the â—irâ—t volume of Decretales conteining fiue bookes set out in the name of Gregory the ninth there are many things that doo much degenerate and grow out of kinde from that old discipline comprised in the former booke of Decrees And hence arose that saying which is common and famous amongst our countriemen he meaneth the Frenchmen Things haue gone ill with men since tales were added to Decrees that is since the time that in steed of the Decrees the Decretales did beare sway For the Church-causes had lost their olde simplicitie when Decrees were patched out with those tales as the world is wont to growe worse and worse So destenies do prouide That all thinges fall vnto decay and backe efisoones they slide As for the other volume the sixth booke of Decretales which Boâ—iface the eighth added it hath not bene receiued in the kingdome of France because the constitutions and ordinances thereof are thought to haue bene purposely made the most part of them in hatred and despite of Philip the French king and for the game of the court of Rome No not the Clementines neither nor Extrauagants the last part of the Decretales are voyde of like faultes nay the later lawes of the Popes be commonly worse then the former And this is the body of the Canon-law these are the Popes statutes by the which though very vnméete for the church in Duarens iudgement yet is the church of Rome gouerned and it is so gouerned that the Decrees which are the better part haue lesse autoritie the Decretales which are woorse haue greater force in Church-causes and are more authenticall Yea the matter came to that passe that Gratian the principall autor of the Canon law would haue had the Decretall epistles of the Popes to be accounted holy and reckened in the number of the Canonicall scriptures For the better compassing and credite whereof he did most shamefully corrupt a saying of S. Austins But it would not â—ay In so much that the Papists Alfonsus and Andradius are them selues ashamed of that his either wilfull fault or ouersight The Decretales therefore remaine not in the number of the Canonicall scriptures which hope the Giants fayled of through the diuision of their toungs yet equall in autoritie to the canonicall scriptures yea aboue them in deciding Church-causes at Rome For that which S. Bernard complained off to Pope Eugenius long since he might complaine off to any Pope in our time if he were aliue the lawes keepe a great sturre dayly in your Palace but the lawes of Iustinian not the lawes of the Lord. Whether iustly or no looke you to that For doutlesse the law of the Lord is vndefiled and conuerteth soules But these are not so much lawes as law-quarels and strifes subuerting iudgement Besides that the maner of dealing which is vsed in debating causes is too too abominable and such as is maruellous vnseemely for the church nay it were not seemely for the common place where ciuill matters are handled He meaneth that maner which the Popes Court of Chauncerie at Rome had bred long before though it were not growen yet to that bignesse to which it shot vp afterwarde euen that maner of dealing which is practised in the brabbles and cauils of aduocates
24.19 h Act. 2.40 8.25 10.42 i Sleidan de statu relig reip lib. 6. k Act. 24.14 26.22 l Stapl. princip doctr li. 11. ca. 1. 2. m cap. 3. n August de doctr Christ. li. 3. cap. 2. o Mat. 26.61 p In fraudem legis facit quiâ—â—â— uis verbis legisententiam enâ—â— circumuenit L. Contra. Dig. de legibus Senatusque consultis q Ioh. 2.19 r Aug. de doctr Christian. lib. 3. cap. 2. s cap. â—â— t Epist. 174. ad PascentiuÌ„ Com. haeres Arian 1 Ingenitum 2 Homousion u Contr. Maxim Arianot episc lib. 3. cap. 3. x Confess Augustinian lib. 1. cap. 8. tit 4. y Mat. 27.24 * cap. 8. de sacris traditionibus c Epist. 174. ad Pascentium 2 Ipsâ—m verbum homousion 1 Hoc verbum â—uod Pater esâ—oâ— ingenitus a Contr. Maximin Aâ—ian episcop lib. 1. b lib. 3. cap. 3. 10. c Matt. 4.10 d 1. Cor. 3.16 6.19 * Tit. 4. cap. 8. de tradit e Summ. Theologic part 1. quaest 36. art 2. * Vel per veâ—ba vel per sensum f Dionys. de diuin nomin ca. 1. g Damascen de orthod sid lib. 1. cap. 1. 2. h Augu. de Trinitat lib. 1. ca. 2. 4. i lib. 15. cap. 2â— k De doctrin Christiaâ— lib. 1. cap. 35.36.37 40. l lib. 3. c. 2. u Exod 14.31 x Prou. 1.8 y Cyprian libr. de vnitat eccles z 1. Pet. 1.23 a 1. Pet. 2.2 b Namely by Philip Act. 8. â—5 by Peter Act. 10.34 c Gal. 4.19 * 1. Cor. 3.2 d In epist. 1. Ioâ—an Tâ—actat 3. * Mat. 13.52 e Contr. â—aâ—st Manichae l. 14. c. 2. f Staplet prin doctr l. 11. c. 5 g Aristot. libr. â—â— de orâ—u interit h August de catechizand rudibus cap. 3.4.6.7 c. i Canisius in his latin Ledesima in his Italian Vaux in his English catechisme k Ecclesia Romanâ— omnium ecclesiarum mater magistra Concil Trident. Sess. 7. de â—aptism can 3. Sess. 14. cap. â— Sess 22 〈◊〉 Sess 25. decâ—et de lib. delect l 1. King 3.17 m Sander in epist. ad Pium Quint. dedicat de visib monar Staplet prin doctrin lib. 8. cap. 19. * Vulgatam catholicorum vocem de Sanâ—ta matrâ— ecclesia irrident hodie execranâ—ur haeretici Staplet * That is to say the Popes who in his Canon law calleth the church his spouse Nos iustitiam nostram ecclesiae sponsae nostrae nolentes ne gligere c. Quoniam de immunitat ecclesiar in Sext. n Exod. 32.3 1 With medals agnus Deies halowed graines â—eades cruâ—â—â—ixes and other such iewels 2 D. Allen Campian Howleâ— the Censurer the Iesuites and Seminarie-priestes o Exod. 32. ver 4. p ver 6. Allens Apologâ—e of the English Seminaries chap 2. out of Bede hist. Angl lib. 1. a cap. 4. Eleâ—theâ—ius b cap. 23. Gregory the first who sent Austin q Iam. 1.17 r 1. Cor. 12.4 s 1. Sam. 10.12 t Gildas a Briâ—tan auncienter then Bede doth affirme the contrary And Polidor Viâ—g l. lib. hist. Ang. 2. Gildas testis eft Britannos iam inde ab initio orti Euangelii Christianam accepisse religio nem u Bede histor Anglor l. 3. c. 21. â—2 x Gratian. 2. q. 7. c. Nossi § cum Balaam y Benedict Parisiensis Bullo c. Anglus in concordant sacr â—criptur Asina ecclesia z The Chronicles of Thom. Walsingham and Mat. Paris Chiefely Mat. Paris in Henric. tert anno Dom. 1245.1246 1247. * Num. 22.18 a Hos. 2.2 * Vulgat edit lat Iudicate matrem vestraÌ„ iudicate b Act. 22.3 c 5.34 d 23.6 * 1. Cor. 4.4 e 1. Kin. 18.27 f Esai 44.16 g Staplet princip doctr lib. 11. cap. 4. h cap. 5. i cap. 6. k cap. 9. l cap. 10. m cap. 12. 1 In the yeare of Christ 1578. 2 Marchio Hyberniae n Histor. de bello Aâ—ricano quo perâ—it Sebastianus Rex Portugalliae cap 7. Geâ—ebrard Chroâ—ograph lib. 4. * He was slain there Hist. de bello Afr. ca. 13. * Demonstratio methodica principiorum fidei doctrinalium Thomae Stapletoni o Staplet prine doctr li. 11. c. 10. 1 Dextera collatio locorum scripturae 2 Infeliciter adhibita p cap. 1. 3. 9. q cap. 9. r De doctrin Christian. lib. â— a prologâ— s Psal. 119.18 * Staplet prin doctr lib. 11. cap. 10. * Quod obseruare haeretici nolunt quia catholici boni ecclesiae â—ilii esse nolunt * Conferendo scripturas diligentissimé errauerunt tamen in Scripturarum sensu turpissimé Pet. 3.16 u In the gospell of the kingdome cap 23.6 33.11 and so forth in that and the rest of his pamphlets x Mat. 4.6 y Ephes. 6.17 z Hebr. 4.12 a Theodor. hist. ecclesiast l. 1. c. 7. b Athanas. conâ—tra Aâ—ian Gregor Nazianz. de Filio â—asil contra Eunomium Hilari Augustin de Trinitat contra Arian c In epist. ad Innocent epist. 90. inter epist. August d Epist. 92 〈◊〉 epistolas Augustin e Concilium Aâ—aâ—sican secundum f In operibus contra Pelagianos Tom. 7. g Ephes. 6.16 h Howleâ— in his epistle to the Queenes Maiestie i â—cripâ—uraâ—ii Albeit Pighius ecclesiast hieraâ— l. 1. c. 2. k Staplet prin doctr l. 11. c. 10. l Lindan de optim gen inteâ—pr Scriptur Staplet prin doctr l. 11. c. 12. m Staplet prin doctr l. 11. c. 9. 10. * These are Giants the sonnes of Anak of whom it is written Nâ—m 13.34 * These are Giants the sonnes of Anak of whom it is written Nâ—m 13.34 n Num. 13.28 o Psal. 95.11 Num. 14.14 p Num. 14.7 q Ioh. 5 39. r Iam. 1.5 s Mat. 7.7 * Stapleâ— prinâ— doctrin lib. 10. cap. 10. li. 11. cap. 9. t 1. Ioh. 5.14 u Rom. 12.3 x Ioh. 7. ver 49. y ver 52. z Act 17. ver 11. a ver 1â— b â— Cor. 2.15 c 1. Cor. 10.15 d 1. Ioh. 4.1 e Act. 15.6 f 1. Cor. 14.29 g 1. Cor. 14.32 1 Matt. 23.10 2 Iam. 4.12 The third Diuision h Ioh. 6 6â— i Ioh. 10. ver 22. 2â— k Gen. 41.25 l Mat. 16.19 m Reu. 21.27 n Ioh. 3.16 o 1. Pet. 1.4 p Rom. 10.14 q Luc. 4.18 〈◊〉 61. â— r Mar. 16.15 Luc. 24.47 s 2. King 18.18 t Esai 22.22 u Reu. 3.7 * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Cor. 4.1 x Rom. 5.12 y Rom. 6.23 z Prou. 5.22 a 2. Pet. â— 4 b 1. Pet. 3.19 c Ioh. 3.18 d â— Cor. 2.16 e Esai 61.1 f Matt. 16.19 18.18 g Ioh. 20.23 h Catechism Concil Tridenâ— in Sacram. Pâ—â—nitenâ— * Staplet princ doctr lib. 6. ca. 1. a Matt. 16.19 1 Non est vt quibaâ—dam visum suit explicatio aut limitatio ipsatum clauium 2 Omnium Doctorum scholasticoruÌ„ senteÌ„tia b Mat. 18.18 c Ioh. 20.23 d Matâ— 16 1â— 3 Illud
was not thrée yeares Bishop Or if because Cyprian doth write it to the Pope you haue such a preiudice that it is the Popes peculiar you may know that he writeth the same to an other expresly of himself TheÌ„ce haue schismes heresies sproong doe spring that the Bishop which is one and ruleth the church is despised by the proud presumption of certain men Wherefore though your Rhemists and other of the Popes friends doe plie the box with that saying of one Priest one iudge for the time in Christs steed yet in very truth it maketh as much for the Bishop of Rochester as for the Bishop of Rome The more is Stapletons blame who knowing and confessing the same not onely otherwhere but in this very worke of his principles too yet in the ende thereof abridgeth it to the Pope Maruell that in his preface to Gregorie he past it He might haue alleaged it better then he hath The head of all Churches Which title is giuen in Victor to the Church of Rome not to the Bishop and toucheth lesse the Papacie there then in S. Gregorie in whom it doth not proue it as I haue declared Marry that which followeth is of greater shew out of Ambroses commentarie on S. Paul to Timothee where Damasus the Bishop of Rome in his time is called ruler of the Church But first whatsoeuer he were who wrote that it was not S. Ambrose the famous Bishop of Milan on whom are falsly fathered the coÌ„mentaries on S. Paul as your Diuines of Louan do obserue and testifie Next the wordes themselues which are in that autour on mention of the house of God the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus are not in my iudgement the autours owne wordes but a glose crept in amongst them For whereas S. Paule writing vnto Timothee declared why he did so to wéete that thou mayst know how thou oughtest to behaue thy selfe in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God the commentarie thereon doth expouÌ„d it thus I write vnto thee that thou maiest know how to gouern the Church which is the house of God that whereas all the world is Gods yet the Church is called his house the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus For the world is naught troubled with sundrie errours Therefore the house of God and truth must of neceâ—sitie be saide to be there where he is feared according to his will In the which wordes if that of Damasus were omitted the lâ—ter clawse contayning a reason of the former would cleaue therevnto more suantly and fitly Which maketh me to thinke that it was not pitched in thetext by the autour but found a â—hinke and so came in as an other glose of Damasus successour hath done into Optatus And I think it the rather because some are perswaded by manifolde conference as your Louanists note that the booke of questions of the old and new testament entitled to S. Austin this to S. Ambrose are the same autours For he who wrote that booke was not aliue of lykelihoode when Damasus was Pope Howbeit if he were too and of a kinde â—ffection to Rome where he liued thought good to mention him the wordes which he vseth in Latin cuius hodie rector est Damasus might meane that Damasus was a ruler of the Church not as you english it the ruler Which to haue bene so it appéereth farther by the word at this day spoken with a relation to the dayes of Timothee that as hée did gouerne the Church in Paules time so at that present was Damasus ruler of it Wherefore sith Timothee was placed at Ephesus to set that Church in order not to rule the whole Damasus might be called a ruler of the Church in that he was Bishop of the Church of Rome as S. Ambrose termeth him though he were not the ruler of the vniuersal S. Austin is the last oâ— them whose testimonies you cited And the preeminence of a higher roome whereof he made mention to Boniface the first importeth a prerogatiue of honour ouer others not soueraintie of power A prerogatiue of honour according to the canon of the first Councell of Constantinople which gaue that prerogatiue to the See of Rome because that citie raigned Not soueraintie of power as it is euident by the Councell of Afrike where he denied that to the same Boniface to whom hée graunted this preeminence It was therefore only the dignitie of place which S. Austin meant by the higher roome As else where hauing named Cyprian Olympius and other auncient writers he sayth that Innocentius was after them in time before them in place because they were Bishops of inferiour cities and he of the Roman Hart. Nay but S. Austin sayth in plain termes that the principalitie of the Apostolike See had floorished in that Church still Rainoldes But S. Austin addeth in as plain termes that Bishops may reserue their cases to the iudgement of their fellow-bishops chiefly of the Apostolike Church and that a generall Councell is aboue the Pope in iudging of those causes too Which is a cléere proofe that by the principalitie of the Apostolike See he meant the Church of Rome to be chéefe of other Churches as I sayd in honour not in power For in power al others at least the Apostolike that is in which the faith of Christ had bene taught by the Apostles themselues are made equall with it But amongst all in which the Apostles themselues had taught the faith the Roman for honour credit had the chiefty And thus haue I discharged my selfe of my promise which was that I would yeeld vnto the Popes supremacie if you prooued it by the sayings and iudgement of the Fathers alleaged and applied rightly For none of all theÌ„ which you haue alleaged neither of any other church nor of the Roman it self doth auouch it Whereby the shamelesse vanitie of Bristow may be séene who being not contented to say of all the Fathers that they were Papists addeth that in familiar talke among our selues we are not afeard plainely to confesse it The Lord who is witnesse of our thoughtes and spéeches knoweth that we are lewdly sclaundered herein And for mine owne part I am so farre off from confessing plainely that they were all Papists that I haue plainly declared and confirmed not one of them to haue bene For the very being and essence of a Papist consisteth in opinion of the Popes supremacie But the Popes supremacie was not allowed by any of the Fathers Not one then of al the Fathers was a Papist Wherefore if you haue the Fathers in such reuerent regard and estimatioÌ„ as you pretend M. Hart let if not the Scriptures yet the Fathers moue you to forsake Papistrie and giue to euery pastor and church their owne right whereof Christ hath possessed