that question were resolued but that point standeth vppon an if Nay assure yourselues it is past peraduenture they would take it in great scorne that such a matter should rest vndecided Where it is held by the Churches of Heluetia that such Elderships as they of Geneua talke of are needlesse where there is a Christian magistrate and thereupon the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury for disputations sake reasoning that if there were any such Elders then yet it doth not followe they should bee receiued now Cartwright and his schollers are peremptorie that the offices of those Elderships are the rather to bee continued vnder a Christian magistrate And the learned Discourser sayth as confidently in the like case that the same authoritie which the Church had before there was a Christian Magistrate doth still continue when there is one or else as he addeth we would be glad to learne how this authoritie was translated from the Church in which it was once lawfully vsed vnto the ciuill Magistrate Agreeable to both which resolutions is that saying of Trauerse That Heathen Princes being become Christians doe receiue no further increase of their authoritie than they had before while they were in paganisme It is well By these rules then all is theirs They are Kings Princes the very immediate vicegerentes of Iesus Christ vppon earth And good reason they should then haue both the swords nay twenty swords if there were so many And besides seeing they haue to deale in all causes they must haue all lawes in the closets of their brestes at the least authoritate let scientia come by Cartwrights deuise vpon the suddaine into them how it may at leysure But hereof sufficiently Howsoeuer they crie our against our Bishoppes for intermedling with mo matters than they are able to discharge yet you see into what an infinite sea of affaires they would thrust their Elderships allowing generally that in themselues which formerly they haue condemned in others As by the next Chapter it will appeare more plainely vnto you CHAP. XXVI Those things they reprooue as vnlawfull in others they allow in themselues THere is nothing better knowne than with what contempt and bitternesse diuers amongst vs haue written against the authoritie of Bishoppes especially Archbishops and yet I perceiue that if they might attaine to such an authoritie it would bee well enough accepted For thus their Maister Beza writeth What was ordayned in times past concerning the appointing of prouinciall Synodes by the Metropolitane appeareth manifestly by the olde Canons Neither are we the men who if the ruines of Churches were repayred doo thinke eyther that order or some other like vnto it to be reiected So as these two things bee obserued That a tyrannie be not brought againe into the Church as though the holy Ghost were tyed to some certaine seate or person and that all thinges should be doone to edification c. Indeede hee is already the Primate Archbishop or Metropolitane in effect of all the prouince of Geneua or at the least hee easily foresaw that if anie such order should bee restored againe amongst them hee was the onely man for that great preferment When this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the sixt Canon of the Councell of Nice is brought and vrged to proue the authoritie right and iurisdiction of the Bishop of Alexandria ouer the Churches in diuers countries there mentioned then it must signifie nothing in that place if wee shall beleeue Cartwright but onely a dignitie or preheminence in meetings to goe or sit before the rest But if you talke of the power authoritie and iurisdiction of their Eldershippes then sayth Danaeus Vox potestatis in hac disputatione significat 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the word of power signifieth as this Greeke worde doth properly import And what is that Forsooth Ius authoritatem alicuius gubernationis illi traditae id est alicuius reigerendae regendae Right and authoritie of some gouernment giuen vnto such a power that is of the gouernement and rule of some thing Nowe if this worde might haue beene so happie as to haue retained this signification in the sayde Councell of Nice where there is speach of Bishops Cartwright had beene put to his plunge and Bezaes annotation mentioned would not haue helped him a rush There is nothing more vsually obiected against the present estate superioritie and authoritie of Bishoppes than the place of Peter Neque vt dominantes in cleris Not as though yee were Lordes ouer the Clergie And that of Luke 22. Vos autem non sic But you shall not be so And it will not bee admitted in anie wise that wee should expound those places of ambitious affectation of tyrannous practise or of the abuse of such superioritie â—or iurisdiction But if you will speake of the right authoritie and iurisdiction of their Elderships the case is cleane altered There are some as it seemeth beyond the seas who seeing the pride of the consistorian gouernement doe affirme That the power of the Church is onely spirituall and not any external exercise practise and right of any authoritie power and gouernment With this opposition so much derogating from the dignitie of their Elderships Danaeus is mooued and answering that conceit sayth that although the power of the Church ad animarum salutem sit comparata be instituted for the health of soules yet notwithstanding it hath necessarily annexed vnto it an indissoluble band an externall exercise practise and vse iuris gubernationis of lawe and gouernment Against this aunswere replye as it seemeth is made with the same places mentioned that are vrged against our Bishops Whervpon Danaeus to make all thinges cleare addeth these wordes to his former aunswere and publisheth the same from Geneua Nam quod c. Whereas it may bee obiected out of Peter Non dominantes c. Not bearing rule c. And out of Luke Vos autem non sic but you shall not be so Facilè soluitur it is easily aunswered Damnatur enim partim abusus non vsus illius potestatis partim illius cum ciuili confusio for partly the abuse is condemned not the vse of that power and partly the confusion of it with the ciuill power Which is the verie aunswere that wee doe make and approoue beeing extorted from them by Gods good prouidence for the stopping of our mens mouthes who vppon pretence of those places haue opened them so wide against the lawfull authoritie of our Bishops It hath beene greatly grudged-at by these reformers that Bishoppes are allowed to bee of the vpper house of Parliament and saine they would haue them out if they knew how Notwithstanding for ought I can finde they haue enioyed that honourable prerogatiue euer since there was an high Court of Parliament in England And still the worde of God is made the pretence for whatsoeuer they desire so as euer you vnderstand that they
long they account it since it was in any good reparation saith plainely not as Cartwright affirmeth that it flourished most in Constantines time but thus we must needs confesse in deede that this gouernement of the Church fell to decaye long before the Councell of Nice But yet one step further after maister Cartwrights dubling where speaking in his second booke of the corruption as he tearmeth it that one Bishop had a preheminēce giuen him aboue other ministers which he cannot deny to haue been an ordinance in Alexandria from Saint Marks time c. he saith from the first day wherein this deuise was established corruption grew in the Church c. And the first resistance by any setled Church against that corruption was by those that abolished that deuise of man and receaued the order in the Apostles times touchinge the equality of Ministers as the Bohemians Merindols the Churches in Germany and Geneua See what carieers are here From Geneua to the Apostles times and thence backe againe to Geneua at a leape From Saint Markes time till the time here limited the pretended Presbitery with all the complements thereof as nowe it is vrged hath lyen alla-mort No one setled Church that is in Cartwrightes language no one particular parish in all the world for a 1500. yeares did euer account it vnlawfull for a Bishop to haue authority aboue other Ministers Or thus there hath not bin vpō the face of the earth within the space of a thou sand fiue hundred yeares so much as in any one parish such an equality amongest the Ministers of the worde of God as is now pretended to be in the Presbitery at Geneua and so consequently in all that tyme not suche a Presbitery Or thus within the compasse of the Heauens there hath not beene one Church for aboue 1500 yeares that euer dealt so with Bishops as of late they haue beene dealt withall especially in Geneua and in some other such places as haue followed therein the example of that Citty Well hitherto then you see that since we came from Geneua vz the yeare 1541. the men themselues that talke so much of their Geneua platforme cannot finde it flourishing in the daies of all the auncient fathers nor in all the world for the space of aboue 1500. yeares The fathers alas some of them were but simple men some were ambitious and some were ignoraunt They poore men had small experience and lesse pollicie They wanted iudgement and zeale either to discerne or to keepe in her virginitie this gallaunt Dalila They chopped and chaunged the institution of Christ at their pleasure Any examples that shall be fet from them are very dangerous They were but men But if you will leape ouer all them and come to Geneua there you shall finde wise men learned men humble men zealous men nay rather Angelles then men there you shall see the glorious rankes of Elders sitting vppon their thrones the worshipfull company of Deacons attending vpon the contributions the well Disciplined multitude bringing in the price of their lands and goods and powring all downe at the Deacons feete there Christ carrieth hys owne scepter in Bezaes hand there this pretended holy Discipline so disgraced by the fathers so corrupted and so defaced there she raigneth there shee flourisheth and there she is magnified The Church of Geneua saith a good fellow is the purest reformed Church forsooth in Christendome Againe Geneua is the chiefest place of true comfort in Earth Now what is here said of Geneua and her Ministers except you extend it to all other Churches and Ministers that follow the Geneua platforme they will be angry with you and thinke themselues as I suppose to be very greatly disgraced But I will leaue them clawing one of another and come to the Apostles times to see if the Geneua Church-gouernment may be found out amongest them For either there or no where The Apostle Saint Iohn liued much longer then any of the rest of the Apostles did Saint Ierome saith that he liued after Christes passion threescore eight yeares So as the Apostles times after the largest accompt are not further to be extended Now as Baronius collecteth out of Eusebius Saint Marke was Bishop of Alexandria about 19. yeares and died about the thirtith yeare after Christes ascention So as Saint Iohn out-liued Saint Marke some 38. yeares After this reckoning if the Church of Alexandria should haue departed from Christes institution and so cleane haue disgraced the glory of this fained Eldership when there was a Bishop made there according to Cartwrightes assertion then before wee can finde the Geneua platforme in such perfection as it is in that Citie we must cut of the said 19. yeares wherein Saint Marke had departed so grossely from Christes ordinance from the before mentioned 68. yeares the full extent of the apostles time which being done you haue but eleuen yeares wherein there is any hope for the pretended puritie and practise of the Geneua Discipline to shadow or shrowd her selfe Yea but where Saint Ierome saith that there were Bishops in Alexandria from Saint Markes time c. Cartwright hath this shift vz that the wordes from Saint Marks time may be taken exclusiuely to shut out Saint Marke Whereby to saue Saint Markes credite that an Euangelist should not be thought to haue broken the necke of Christes gouernement he woulde haue this great defection to haue been presently after Saint Markes time and so hee excludeth Saint Marke after the Geneua fashion quite and cleane out of his Bishopricke and will needes suppose that hee was neuer Bishop contrary to Saint Ieromes expresse wordes in sondrie places and contrarie to the full consent and agreement of all the auncient fathers and of all the ecclesiasticall histories But be it as hee would haue it yet let the reckoning be newly cast vp againe and it falleth out that this supposed departing from Christes institution was about thirtie and eight yeares before S. Iohn died Which standeth hardly with the reputation of the Apostles times in my opinion But that is no great matter We know saith the authour of the foresaide booke that was sent vs from Scotland Diotrephes to haue been in the Church euen in the Apostles times and we are assured he could neuer be gotten out of it since the first houre that he set his footing therein And therefore we cannot greatly maruaile though euen in their time there had been a diuerse gouernment from this of the Lordes appointment which we labour for For euen in the Apostles times the mistery of iniquitte beganne to worke And what will they say of Saint Iohn the Apostle and of all the rest of them that out-liued Saint Marke as they haue done of all the auncient fathers was there so small intelligence amongst those most prouident and wise holy men that there could be so notorious a defection in Alexandria so famous a Citie and they neuer to heare of it Or
you of vs or least those things which we haue written of Ecclesiasticall policie properly against that Antichristian tyrannie as necessitie required are taken by some in that sense as if euer we had meant to compel to our order those churches that thinke otherwise then we doo of it and the gouernors of them agreeing els with vs in the truth of doctrine agreeable to the word of God and that except they followed our order we accounted otherwise of them then their godlines and dignitie and mutuall brotherhood doth require c. Farre be this arrogancie from vs. Quis vllum nobis in vllam Ecclesiam imperium tribuit Who doth giue vs authority ouer anie church Far be it from vs that we should thinke so the substantiall matters be kept there ought nothing to be graunted to antiquitie nothing to custome nothing to the circumstances of places times and persons c. Againe in his booke against D. Sarauia hauing spoken of the tyrannie of Popish Bishops hee maketh this exception Neque tamen But wee doo not therefore accuse all Archbishops and Bishops now so called of tyranie For what arrogancie were that Nay so as they doo imitate the examples of the olde holy Bishops and indeuor as much as they can to reforme the house of God so miserably deformed according to the rule of Gods word why may we not acknowledge al of them now so called Archbishops and Bishops obey them and honor them with all reuerence So far we are from that which some obiect vnto vs most falsly and most impudently as though we tooke vppon vs to prescribe to anie Church in anie place our examples to be followed like vnto those vnwise men who account wel of nothing but of that which they doo themselues And to the same effect a little before If now the reformed Churches of England being vnderpropped with the authoritie of Bishoppes and Archbishops do continue as this hath happened to that Church in our memorie that she hath had men of that calling not onely most notable martyrs of God but also excellent pastors and doctors Fruatur sane ista singulari dei benificentia quae vtinam illi sit perpetua Let her truly inioy this singular blessing of God which I wish may be perpetuall vnto her Furthermore it should seeme that Zanchius as moderate and learned a man as euer fauoured the pretended Elderships was appointed some 12 or 16. yeres since to draw a confâ—ssion of religion for the Churches of France others as Melanchthon had done the Augustan confession for Germanie Accordingly hee drew it and in the same speaking of Bishops he vseth these wordes Non improbamius patres c. Wee doo not disalow the fathers in that after a diuers waie of dispensing the word and gouerning the Church they multiplied diuerse orders of Ministers seeing it was lawfull for them so to do as it is vnto vs and seeing it appeareth that they did it for honest causes appertaining at that time to the order decencie and edification of the Church And in the next article Hac ratione c. By this reason vz. that the nurseries of dissentions and of schismes may be taken away wee thinke that these thinges which were ordained before the Councell of Nice concerning Archbishops nay as touching the foure Patriarches may be excused and defended When this booke was perused and this clause found in it then forsoth a deuise was had for the staying of it vnder pretence that now it was thought more meete that there should be a harmonie made of all the confessions of diuers churches But Zanchius himselfe maketh this the chiefe cause if I vnderstand him why his booke dyd mislike some of them for that hee had written as before is mentioned of Bishops For so hee sayth Magnus quidam vir c. A certaine great man meaning Beza as it is supposed did write vnto mee of this matter as followeth Your confession was read by mee and N. others with great delight It is written most learnedly and in a most exquisite methode and if you except that which you adde towards the end touching Archbishops and the Hierarchie mihi summopere placuit it pleased mee exceedingly Vpon this occasion as it seemeth Zanchius printed his said confession with certaine annotations In the which annotations he sheweth three reasons for his allowance of Archbishops Bishops The first is grounded vpon the practise of the primitiue church presently after the Apostles times the second is for that hee thought it his dutie in the draught of his said booke to haue regard to those reformed churches which retaine both Bishops Archbishops and the third because all the reformed Churches generally although they haue chaunged the names yet in effect they doe keepe the authoritie as where they haue superintendents and generall superintendents Nay saith he where these new base Latine names are not admitted Ibi tamen solent esse aliquot primarij penes quos fere tota est authoritas yet there are in those places vsually certaine chiefemen that doe in a manner beare all the sway But I pray you be pleased that I may deliuer vnto you the maner of his setting down of his first reason and that in his owne words for they carry with them a notable condemnation of other mens great pride rashnes Cum haenc conscriberem fidei confessionem c. When I writ this confession of faith I writ all the thinges in it of a good conscience and as I beleeued so I freely spake the scriptures teaching men so to doe And my faith first of all and simply doth rely vpon the word of God then somewhat also vpon the common consent of the whole ancient Catholicke Church if the same bee not repugnant to the scriptures For I beleeue that what thinges were defined and receiued by the auncient Fathers assembled in the name of the Lord with a generall consent of them all and without any contradiction of the holy Scriptures the same surely although they be not of the same authoritie with holy Scriptures yet did they proceed from the holy Ghost Heereof it commeth to passe that those things which are of this nature neither would I neither dare I with a good conscience disallow them And what can be shewed more certainly out of histories out of the councels out of the writings of all the ancient fathers then that those orders of Ministers of the which we haue spoken haue bene ordained and receiued in the Church by the generall consent of all christian common-wealths And who then am I that should presume to reproue that which the whole Church hath approued This is true and religious humilitie Thus all graue and discreet godly men haue euerwritten Those that contemne all the learned Fathers that went before them doe open a windowe to their owne discredite by those that shall come after them That which this godly and great learned man ascribeth to the
against him doth traÌ„slate for dioces parish as in this place he doth it with a most brasen forehead The councell of Nice of Antioch of Carthage and of Sardis directly prouing that Bishops only had authority to excommunicate Cartwright giueth no other answere vnto them but this that Maister Caluin saith how Bishops in excommunicating after that manner dealt therein ambitiously Athanasius saith that Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria had the Churches of Pentapolis committed to his care Cartwright saith that care importeth not iurisdiction and so as to the Councell of Nice and of Antioch Cyprian saith the cause of heresies and schismes is this that Priests wil not obey their BB. Cartwright that answereth that is iu effect if his vnpreaching Aldermen will not obay their Pastors Epiphanius speaking of one Peter a Bishop of Alexandria saith this is the custome that the Bishop of Alexandria should haue the Ecclesiastiasticall gouernment of all Egipt Thebais Mariota Libia Ammonica Mariotes Pentapolis Whereupon Cartwright gloseth thus that is besides his own church he procured the good of other churches rouÌ„d about him Again Epiphanius of one Miletus an Archbishop that he was subiect or vnder the said Peter Archbishop of Alexandria Cartwright saith that euery Bishop of name was called an Archbishop And where it is said Miletus was vnder Peter that is vnder him in honour and not subiect vnto him saith Cartwright contrary to the manifest words and meaning of the author Theodoret Bishop of Cyprus saith of himself that he had the gouernment ouer 800. Churches Cartwright saith in effect that he lied that his words coÌ„cerning his care in gouerning those churches being spoken of himselfe want not suspition and that hee was condemned for writing against Cirill neuer mentioning how hee was wrongfully condemned in his absence and afterward restored I omit a number of their other shifts and presumptuous dealings with the fathers As of Epiphanius For him it is knowen of what authority he is c. it were better to laie his words against Aerius vpon some counterfaite and false Epiphanius to spare his credit Likewise of Ambrose Many errors corrupt expositions are found in his works in his exposition vpon the place to the Philippians a child may see how violently he forceth the Text. And also their reiecting of Councels by heaps c. wher they haue no coulor how they may peruert them But yet I may not let this escape my fingars that Cartwright whether for his owne glory or else that God would haue him to be the instrument of his owne shame is well content rather then he will want testimonies to encounter with the authority of Bishops to sort both himselfe all his followers in the number of those that euer since the Apostles times haue repined at that authority thereupon haue beene ouerruled by all the auncient Fâ—thers and Councels as busie bodies Schismaticks You shall heare his wordes and then iudge whether I haue mistaken them To what ende both in the Nicene councell and in many other holden more then two hundred yeares after are there found so manie canons for the acknowledging of the authority of one Metropolitane in euery Province for the honor which he should haue the name he should be called by for the place where hee should sit at their meetings for the bounds of their circuit Doe not all these declare that there were some which were ennemies to that authoritye c. To this I might adde his defence to Aerius and his confutation of Epiphanius not without some discredit to Sainct Augustine Lastlie whatsoeuer is saide or may be said hereafter out of all the auncient Fathers and Histories and out of all the generall Councels concerning the saide gouernment of the Church by Bishops Archbishops and Patriarches of their institution authority title circuites and prerogatiues Cartwright doth take vpon him most boldlie most falsly to prescribe vnto vs certain rules how we must vnderstaÌ„d them or otherwise there is not one of them that will be allowed of I blush in his behalfe I assure you to sette it downe and am ashamed that anie man bearing the name of a Christian shoulde deale so like an Impostor But this it is That it maye appeare saith he what the Fathers and Councelles doe mean when they giue more to the Bishop of anye one churche then to the Elder of the same church and that no man bee deceaued by the name of Gouernour or ruler ouer the rest to fancy any such authority and domination or Lordship as wee see vsed in our church it is to bee vnderstoode that amongest the Pastors Elders and Deacons of euery particular church and in the meetings and companies of the Ministers or Elders of diuerse churches there was one chosen by the voyces suffrages of them al or the most part which did propound the matters that were to be handled whether they were difficulties to be soluted or punishments censures to be decreed vppon those that had faulted or whether there were elections to be made or what other matter so euer occasion was giuen to intreate off the which also gathered the voyces reasons of those which had interest to speake in such causes which also did pronounce according to the number of the voyces which were giuen which was also the mouth of the rest to admonish or to comfort or to rebuke sharply such as were to receaue admonishment consolation or rebuke which in a worde did moderate that whole action which was done for that time they were assembled c. And must we thus vnderstande the Fathers generall Councels Hee might as truely saie that the present forme of our ecclesiasticall gouernment in England vnder her maiestie by Archbishops and Bishops is euen the very same maÌ„ner of church-gouernment that he his followers looke for the right platform of those Elderships which haue so mightely bewitched them Men that once haue passed the limits of modestie may afterwards saie write what they list The ancient Fathers haue deserued farre otherwise of the Church of Christ then that for the maintenaunce of such a forgery as the pretended form of discipline is they shold be vsed after any such manner I would wish all men that are of this proud presumptuous humor to peruse the books which S Augustine hath written against Iulianus the Pelagian There they shall find the very same contemptuous spirit in Iulianus that raigneth in theÌ„selues exalteth it selfe so greatly against the godly learned fathers as also on the other side they shall there see the fruites of Gods spirit vz. in what reuerend account verie high estimation S. Augustine had such worthy holy men by name as here you haue heard very contumeliously disgraced childishly neglected disdaynfully contemned and most proudlie reiected Ita intellexit Ambrosius ita Cyprianus ita Gregorius c. So Ambrose vnderstood such a place of the
at another time and when they haue forgotten themselues they will of purpose I feare it to abuse the worlde stand very much vppon the auncient fathers and bragge of their authoritie exceedingly As Cartwright doth in these words most vntruly We propound nothing saith he that the scriptures doe not teach the writers both olde and newe for the most part affirme and the examples of the primitiue Churches confirme Did euer any manne regard Cartwrightes credite who considering what hath beene noted out of his bookes in this whole processe doeth not pittie him with all his harte to heare him so farre to forget himselfe Hee is a manne of good learning which maketh mee to woonder at him It is surely great pittie that euer hee was so maried vnto his Eldershippe For it hath vtterly ouerthrowne all the good partes that bee in him The best lawyer that is when hee giueth himselfe to shiftes and to feed his clyentes with quirkes refusing not to brabble in anye cause be it neuer so false he looseth his estimation and with the grauer sort is little regarded Howe truely Maister Cartwright affirmeth that he and his fellows do propound nothing but that the old writers for the most parte doe affirme and the examples of the primitiue church confirme I trust it hath in part already appeared vnto you in sundry places but especially in the 5. as I saide and in the 27. Chapters I haue heard some Councellers at lawe vse the verye like course of speach when notwithstanding the cause hath falne out most directly against them yet they haue cried out Oh my Lord wee haue these and these olde euidences to shewe such and such depositions doe make for vs verye manifestly wee haue yet many witnesses to bee examined and thus they will proceed with many cracking wordes as though there had beene nothing which had made against them Is Cartwright able trowe you to finde his Parish Bishops and his counterfeit Lay-Elders which two pointes are in effecte all in all with him in the auncient fathers and primitiue Church Hee maye say as truely that the Sonne shines at midnight But yet hee sayth that Ignatius and Cyprians Bishops were but as our pastors or parsons arein euery parish For his vnministering Elders hee alledgeth the same Ignatius and Cyprian and for a surcharge hee bringeth in also Tertullian Hierome Possidonius and Socrates where they make mention of priests I was once purposed to haue set downe the places themselues which they so violently peruerte to bolster out such theyr apparaunt falshood and to haue aunswered them But then I remembred howe effectually that had beene done allready by diuers learned and woorthie menne and of late more fully and largely by two especiall persons whose books one of them is in printing and the other presently comming to the presse and therevpon I altered my mind in that point And yet something thereof agreeably to the course which hetherto I haue obserued that may peraduenture amaze some of them Vppon some occasion falling out maister Cartwright affirmeth that if the now Lord Arch-bishop of Canterbury had read the ecclesiasticall stories hee shoulde haue founde easiely the Eldership most florishing in Constantines time vz. in hauing then such Bishops and Elders as hee fancieth to himselfe For he must bee so vnderstood To whome replie being made that he should bring but one ecclesiasticall historie that affirmed so much after some three or fower yeares hee brought two vz. the historie of Magdeburge and Eusebius His testimony out of the first he setteth down in these words The centuries must needes haue told him that the same orders and functions of the church were in that time which were before And what would he inferre hereof Surely if hemeane honestly and doe not dally with the word before refering it further then the Centuries meant it which was but to the age that succeeded the Apostles he could not haue directed a man to any history now extant that doth more directly confound his assertion For there the authors of that history doe most plainely affirme that by and by after the Apostles death necessitas coegit personarum gradus aliquos constituere et conseruare necessity compelled the fathers then liuing to ordaine certaine degrees of persons in the church and to conserue them This is most directly against Cartwrights assertion although for mine own part to note it by the way I thinke the Apostles knowing the necessitie mentioned had taken that order before But to follow the said historie There were three degrees then ordained say the said authors vz. Episcopatus presbyterium Diaconatus the degree of Bishops of priesthood and of Deaconship For the proofe whereof they cite Ignatius Eusebius Theodoret c. and the very place of S. Ierome where he sheweth how for auoiding of schisme one was chosen amongst the ministers to haue preheminence ouer the rest and to whome the name of Bishop was peculiarly then attributed And as concerning the priests or Elders they doe shew it out of Eusebius Nicephorus Irenaeus Iustine c. that their office was to preach the Gospell and to administer the sacraments c. The Centuries thus we see will not serue M. Cartwrights turne to the iustifying of the florishing estate of his Eldership in Constantines daies I wil therfore come vnto his sec̄od authority which he bringeth out of Eusebius It is manifest saith he that the churches were gouerned vnder Constantine by Bishops Elders and Deacons by that which is recited of an infinit number of Elders and Deacons which came to the Councel of Nice with the 250. Bishops It is manifest indeede And it is also as manifeste that there were at that time both Archbishops and Patriarches But there were at that Councel both Bishops Elders and Deacons And what then I know that many men haue wrested many places directly contrarie to the authors meaninge but I doe not remember anie one place within the compasse of my small readinge that is more grosly peruerted then this place is For M. Cartwright running still his old biace would haue men to thinke that by Bishops Eusebius meant so many parishe-ministers and by priests or Elders his said counterfaite Aldermen And his authoritie is so greate amongest his sectaries who professe their Gleaninge after him that what-so-euer he bringeth they take it vpon his credit and so runne on with a conceite that not onely all other authorities brought by him out of the auntient Fathers mentioned are truely by him expounded and applyed but that also euen this place of Eusebius is to bee vnderstood as here he woulde haue it Wherein surely they are much to blame to depend so much vpon any mans credit If they them-selues had euer read either the Fathers or the ecclesiasticall histories they coulde neuer possibly haue beene miscarried so palpably A frinde of mine hauinge some talke not many yeares since with Maister Cartwright about this place of Eusebius
holy Ghost and durst not with a safe conscience reprooue euerie sawcie Iacke with vs euerie ignoraunt dolt and euerie Bridewell rake-hell dare disdaine and condemne Tell them of Fathers and Councels they make but a mocke at it But as yet you know not the cause why I haue especially alleadged all these things out of Zanchius I will therefore now tell it you And it is this You haue heard how Beza and some others disliked of Zanchius confession and wherefore But now hee is come about and is grown to be fully of Zanchius iudgement if a man may beleeue him For wheras D. Sarauia had cited these places of Zanchius in the behalfe of Bishops and Archbishops M. Beza aunswered directly that neither he nor his brethren doe dissent therein from Zanchius à quo minimè certè dissentimus But I may not conceale this frō you that although Zanchius hath written so modestly of the callinges of Archbishops and Bishops as it hath beene shewed yet he rather fancied the new platform of Elderships which Beza omitteth not to put Sarauia in minde of when hauing yeelded to Zanchius his saide opinion of Bishops he addeth other places out of him for his allowance of the Eldership and then concludeth Si Zanchio assentiris qua de re contendimus If you agree with Zanchius where about contend wee Wherby I obserue into what a streight Beza is brought For notwithstanding any thing that hee hath written formerly against such Bishops Archbishops as professe the Gospell he can now bee content to reuoke it wholy so as they at Geneua may holde their Elderships He hath so farre ingaged his credit for that kind of gouernment as gladly he would preserue the reputation of it But he seeth I am perswaded it will not bee and that the equality they haue dreamed of tendeth to confusion therefore he beginneth to retire himself from that conceit as well as he may It is much his former proceedings considred that euer he could be brought to Zanchius moderation But yet hee commeth neerer vnto vs for although his Bishop of man found so small fauour with him before as that hee made him the roote of iniquitie and needs he must be plucked vp yet now he is much more fauorable vnto him if I vnderstande him and saith he calleth him the Bishop of man non simpliciter sed comparatè not simply but by way of comparison in respect he meaneth of his Bishop of God Now he acknowledgeth him to haue had place in the church euer since S. Marks time and that one was so chosen saith he certè reprehendi nec potest nec debet assuredly it neither can nor ought to be reprehended Nay hee affirmeth Iustis de causis fieri debuit That for iust causes it was necessarie Vt vnusquispiam e. presbyterio 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 esset permaneret That some one should be the Prelate ouer the presbyterie not for a day or an action as Cartwright saith but to remaine and continue allowing well of S. Ieromes reason why such a choise ought to bee made vz. In remedium schismatis for the remedy of schismes But one thing remaineth which passeth all the rest You shall see that for all the former stormes Beza could be very well content at the length if he might to be in effect an Archbishop Doctor Sarauia amongst diuers other proofes for the calling and authoritie of Bishops bringes an order out of the Apostles Canons so called because of their antiquitie First you shall see it and then also heare Maister Bezas iudgement for the matter of it The Bishoppes of euery nation ought to knowe who is the chiefe amongst them and to account him as it were their heade without whose allowance they ought to doe nothing of any moment but euery one those things onely which belong to his owne parish and the villages which are vnder it Neither let himselfe doe any thing without the knowledge of all For so there shall bee concord and God shall be glorified through our Lord in his holy spirit Thus far the Canon whereof Beza writeth in this sort There is here mention made of him that was the chiefe amongst his fellow Bishops who was afterward called the Archbishop And a little after speaking of the same Canon Quid aliud hic statuitur quam ordo ille quem in omnibus locis ecclesiis restitutum cupimus What els is here appointed than that order which wee desire should bee restored to the Churches in all places And is not the spirituall gouernement of Geneua as yet in her perfection Haue they rashly ouerthrown there such Offices of the Church as nowe they would gladly should be restored againe Those Churches that haue followed Bezas humor in the abolishing of their Bishops and Archbishops may they not iustly wish he had neuer beene borne It is an easie matter to ouerthrow but he and they all shall find it a most difficult thing to build vp againe Haue they pleaded so long for an aequalitie amongst all Ministers that now they can be content to be as it were the heades chiefe ouer the Bishops within the same countries Well the conclusion is this Either Beza writ not the Epistles mentioned to Duditius and Knox though hee hath set them out in his owne name or what hee writ in them against Bishops Archbishops he meant should bee onely extended against popish Bishops and Archbishops then Cartwright hath done him great iniurie in affirming that hee meant our Bishoppes or he is not the author of the treatise of the three sortes of Bishops albeit he calleth it Scriptum meum my discourse and saith as much in effect in his annotations vpon the Epistle to the Philippians or he supposeth in that treatise that there were popish Bishops and Archbishops before and at the time that the Councell of Nice was helde when in all the world there was neither popery nor popish Bishop or hee was ignoraunt that Field had translated the saide treatise into English and that it was published amongst the brethren here and held for currant doctrine or by his agreeing with Zanchius by his writing as hee doth to the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury by his allowing the choise of one Minister to haue a permanent office of primacie ouer the rest by his wishing the restitution of the orders mentioned in the Apostles Canons by these thinges and the rest specified being throughly considered or as I said hee hath now altered his opinion whatsoeuer hee hath written els where to the contrary or els you must take him as you find him For my part I will thinke the best that he hath been formerly abused very greatly by slaunderous reportes which caused him to write as he hath done But howsoeuer this course against Bishops hath been carried on hitherto amongst them God bee thanked for some amendment And lette vs take holde of that which they haue granted You may be
in their printed Supplication against all the new Iulianistes and Atheists mentioned CHAP. XXII They take from Christian Princes and ascribe to their pretended regiment the supreme and immediate authority vnder Christ in causes Ecclesiasticall IN the beginning of the reformation of Religion in Germany the learned men there opposing themselues verie mightely against the Popes vsurped iurisdiction did verie learnedly and soundlie shew and proue to their aduersaries the soueraigne authority of Christian Kinges and Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall within their owne dominions and countries Which authoritie vppon the banishment of the Pope as well there as after also in England was both there and here vnited by diuerse laws vnto the interest of their Crowns and to the lawfull right of ciuile regiment This doctrine since that time hath beene so very throughly maintained by sundrie notable men as Brentius against Asoto Bishop Horne against Fecknam Bishop Iuell against Harding and many other learned men against such other Papistes as haue taken vppon them to impugne it that I am perswaded had it not beene that newe aduersaries did rise opposed themselues in the matter the Papists before this time had beene vtterlie subdued For either vppon the attempt in Geneua for the erecting of the Consistorian gouernment which cannot endure any superior authority ouer it in causes Ecclesiasticall when Caluin and Viretus were banished the Citty or else vppon their restitution and after they had preuailed in their said attempt the Ministers there whether in reuenge of their banishment or least their Magistrats should at any time to come giue eare to the aforesaide Doctrine I will not saye but vppon some such occasion they did presentlie thrust themselues into this question that with such spitefull railing and bitternes as though they had conspired with the Pope and his Proctors against al other reformed churches that reiecting their pretended Discipline or new Papacie indeed had submitted themselues vnto the said lawfull authority of Christian Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall And hereof it came to speake the trueth plainelie that Caluin could not abide that King Henrye the eight should bee tearmed the head or supreme gouernour in Earth of the Churches of God within his Dominions And writing to one Myconius how certaine men in Geneua perswaded the Magistrates there Ne potestate quam illis Deus contulisset se abdicaerent that they woulde not depriue themselues of that authoritie which God had giuen them he tearmeth them according to the Consistorian language prophane spirites and mad men whom saith he if we speaking of himselfe and his fellowes shall ioine together to encounter and with a valiant and inuincible zeale fight for that holy authority vz. CoÌ„sistorian c the Lord with the breath of his mouth will destroy The saide Myconius in like sorte reporteth to Caluin from Basill how some in those borders did write to the like purpose in the behalfe of Christian Magistrates alledging the examples of Moises Dauid and other godlye Kinges which saith hee in effect is to make them Popes and then addeth quid si laici huiusmodi argumentis fuerint persuasi what if lay men shall be perswaded by such argumentes Indeede that will cutte the throate of all your soueraigntie But of all others that haue opposed themselues to Christian Princes in this matter besides Martin-Marre-Prelate and some such like companions amongest vs Viretus for rayling scoffing and biting passeth and excelleth Those that stand in defence of the Magistrates authoritie he resembleth to white Diuels and saith They are false Christians though they couer themselues with the cloake of the Gospell and the reformation of the same And againe The Ministers that haue forsaken the Romish Church in seeking to get the Magistrates and peoples fauour against the Pope Priestes and Monkes haue so despised the state of Priestood and Ministery of the Church and so magnified the state of the Magistrate that they now feele the fruict thereof he meaneth that the goods of the Church are thereby gone and wasted Further saith he they thought it a goodby reformation in the Churche to abolishe all the Canons and decrees with the good Statutes which the auncient Fathers and Doctors hadde ordayned to maintaine good Discipline in the Church They haue put all into the Magistrates handes and haue made them maisters of the Church which he tearmeth to be nothing else but the changing of the Popedome the taking away of both swordes from the Pope and giuing them to Princes the euerthrowing of a spirituall Pope and setting vppe a temporall Pope which vnder another colour will all come to one end Nay hee taketh vppon him to prooue that these Temporall Popes as hee tearmeth them are more to bee feared if they take roote and will be worse theâ— the Spirituall Popes and that so the olde Popishe â—yr 〈◊〉 is not taken awaie but onely changed and disguised And his reasons are First that the olde Pope had not the Temporall sworde in his own hand to punishe with death but was fayne to praye aide of the secular power which the neâ—e Pope's need not to doe Secondly that the olde Popes had some regarde in their dealinges of Councelles Synodes and aunciente Canons c. but the newe Popes will doe what they list without any Ecclesiasticall order bee it right or wronge Thirdlye because it chaunceth ofte that these newâ— Popes haue neither learning nor knowledge and yet these shall bee they that shall commaund Ministers and Preachers what they list on paine of their sworde and ministerie and shall appoint them lawes touching their estate and ministery and likewise to the whole Church Giue him also the hearing a little further I praie you Who so vseth such meanes to reforme the fault of the Pope doth not reforme the Church but deforme is more then it was before c. This I dare say that I see already in some places that vnder title of reformation by the Gospell some christian Princes haue in ten or twentie yeares vsurped more tyranny ouer the Churches in their Dominions then euer the Pope and his adherentes did in sixe hundred yeares And lastly If there be any Magistrates in these daies which vnder the title of authority and power that God hath giuen them c. will make the Ministers of the Church subiect vnto them as the Pope hath made them subiect to him and his c. the same doe verily set vp a newe Pope changing onely his coate and maske And thus far Viretus in his thirde Dialogue of white Diuels which was not written I feare by the instinct of anie good spirite nor without some euill direction translated into English of purpose to seede the seditious fier that our turbulent Copper-smiths following this Dâ—sciplinarie tract haue kindled alreadie amongest vs. I haue omitted his earnestnes in the behalfe of his own and Caluins Discipline that the authority thus denied to Princes might be yeelded to them and
were other vsed in like manner which did more terrifie them For saith Caluin Tandem adieci c. At the length I added further that they must build themselues another Cittie and liue therein by themselues except they would bee contayned heere vnder the yoake of Christ hee meaneth theyr Consistorie and that as long as they liued in Geneua they did striue but in vaine not to obey the lawes there Well by what meanes they were drawne vnto their oath I will not stand vpon it but sworne they were and so confessed all Whereupon Omnes in carcerem coniecti They were all cast into prison Amongst the sayd dauncers besides the said Henriche who was depriued of his Ministerie and committed to prison for three dayes there was in that company one of the foure Syndickes or chiefe Magistrates of the Cittie and hee was remooued from his office vntill hee had giuen some testimonie of his repentance which vppon the admonition of the said Consistorie hee presently did as it seemeth and so escaped prison There was also an other in that meeting named Perrin the Captaine of the Cittie as I take it a man with whome Caluin had many quarrels Hee as it seenieth perceiuing by Caluins eagernes what would fall out about that sporte got himselfe to Lyons hoping before his returne Rem tacitè sepultam iri That the matter would bee deade and buryed But sayth Caluin of him after his returne Quicquid agat poenam non effugiet Doe what he can hee shall not escape vnpunished In this Perrins absence his wife Francisca hearing as I suppose that Caluin shold vtter some harde and angry wordes agaynst her husband rayled both against him and the rest of the Consistoriall associates But Caluin aunswered her Vt merebatur as shee deserued And this was the ende of that inquisition Perrin with his wife were committed to prison as the rest of his fellowes had been hee for dauncing and shee I thinke for rayling Whereof Maister Caluin wrote thus to his friend Perrinus cum vxore fremit in carcere Vidua prorsus insanit alij pudore confusi silent Perrin with his wife dooth frette in prison the widdowe Balthasar is quite madde other beeing ashamed doe holde theyr peace Heere was good Consistorian and round dealing It should appeare that Caluin tooke as much vppon him as some Bishoppes or Commissioners in England doe But why shoulde I stande so long vppon this example It maye bee sayde wee must not lyue by examples And it is true Heare therefore for the conclusion of this poynte a Canon of the reformed Churches in Fraunce The faythfull may bee constrayned by the Consistorie to say the truth so farre foorth as it derogateth nothing from the authoritie of the Magistrate Constrayned this may reach farre But the worde of God alloweth them there it should seeme what they lift In my opinion if such maner of proceeding be lawfull at Geneua and in Fraunce it may in some sorte be tolerated in England It is a thing too manifest with what libelling and rayling the forme of our seruice of our ceremonies of our ornamentes of our apparrell c. hath beene depraued and shamefully slaundered As That our Communion booke was culled out of the Popes Portuise this was abused in Poperie that is papisticall it were better to conforme our selues in outward thinges to the Turkes than to the Papistes These and those thinges were deuised by the Pope that Antichristian beast Whatsoeuer commeth from the Pope which is Antichrist commeth first from the deuill If of the egges of a Cockatrice can be made wholsome meate to feede with or of a spyders webbe any cloth to couer withall then maye also the thinges that come from the Pope and the Deuill bee good profitable and necessarie vnto the Church Against these and many such lyke speeches aunswere hath beene made that it is lawfull to trie all things and to holde that which is good That these thinges which are good were not so defiled by theyr beeing in the Popes portuise but that they might bee taken thence and vsed That we must distinguish betwixt the abuse of a thing and the lawfull vse of it That it is no good reason the Papists abused this therefore wee maye not vse it That as good men sometimes deuise that which is euill so euill men may sometimes deuise that which is profitable c. But all these aunsweres and a number more besides to the same effect are misliked denyed and condemned by these our factioners Howbeit vppon occasion the streame is turned and they themselues are driuen to make the verie same aunsweres for the iustifiyng of their owne proceedinges and for the maintenance of certaine particular matters which they doe vrge and allowe of It hath beene layde to their charge that for all theyr goodly pretences of reformation yet indeede the courâ—e they helde did smell most rankly of Anabaptisme Donatisme and of a newe kinde of Papisme As where tâ—ey disquiet the peace of the Churches already reformed rayle vppon our Ministers and theyr calling affirme that our Sacramentes are not sincerely ministred that there is no Church as it should bee but those that they like of that our ceremonies and orders are all vnlawfull that we haue no lawfull Ministers nor Bishoppes that Princes may not deale in causes ecclesiasticall c. These and manye such like poyntes beeing layde to theyr charge Cartwright as though hee had neuer dreamed of any thing to the contrary frameth this generall aunswere in the name of all his fraternitie If amongst the filth of their heresies vz. of Papistes Anabaptistes and Donatistes there may bee found any good thing as it were a grayne of good corne in a great deale of darnell that wee willingly receyue not as theyrs but as the Iewes did the holy Arke from the Philistines whereof they were vniust owners For heerein it is true that is said The sheepe must not laye downe her fell because shee seeth the Wolfe sometyme cloathed with it Yea it maye come to passe that the Synagogue of Sathan maye haue some one thing at some time with more conuenience than the true and Catholicke Church of Christ. Such was the ceremonie of powring water once onelye vppon the childe in Baptisme vsed with vs and in the moste reformed Churches which in some age was vsed by those of the Eunomian heresie Hitherto Cartwright Whose aunswere if it bee true dooth concurre with ours and may stay his owne and his fellowes gyddinesse heereafter Cartwright was purposed once to haue been Doctor of Diuinitie And thereof hee writeth in this sorte I had the aduise of more than a doozen learned Ministers who considering that I had the office of a Doctor in the Vniuersitie were of opinion that for the good they esteemed might bee doone thereby I might swallowe the fonde and idle ceremonies which accompany it To the request of which friendes I yeelded But when his
Bishoppes grounding themselues vppon one of Cartwrightes principles That any increase of authoritie being added to a Church-Minister dooth cleane chaunge his Ministerie and maketh it a new Ministerie Whervpon they conclude that Archbishoppes and Bishoppes hauing receyued an increase of theyr authorities by diuerse Councelles c. are become to bee of a newe Ministerie neuer ordayned by Christ nor his Apostles and so consequently vnlawfull and to bee abolished The follie of this collection hath beene shewed manie wayes both by reasons and by examples but yet they haue not beene satisfied But nowe you shall see they are put to silence for euer For Beza is peremptorie to the contrarie of that which they haue so inforced In his booke agaynst Doctor Sarauia speaking of a place of Ieromes how Bishoppes were ordayned for orders sake c. hee sayth in effecte That when they had such authoritie giuen then for orders sake Mutatio non suit in re ipsa id'est in ipso ordine sed tantùm in ordinis modo There was no chaunge made in the thinge it selfe that is in the order but in the manner or measure of the order And afterwards more plainely where hee setteth downe another manner of principle than Cartwrightes vz. That wee must distinguish betweene the nature of a thing and that which adhereth vnto it accidentally because Eo in aliud cōmutato vel sublato res ipsa permanet The accident beeing chaunged or taken away the thing it selfe remaineth Whereupon if I vnderstande him he groweth to this issue That the increase of any such authority as is before mentioned or the alteration of the manner or order is not of the essence of the Ministery but a thing that is accidentall and may be chaunged according to the circumstaunces of times and places And hee bringeth this example Accidentale fuit c. It was accidentall c. Vt vnusquispiam iudicio caeierorum compresbyterorum delectus presbyterio 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 esset permaneret That one beeing chosen by the iudgement of the rest of his fellow-priests or Elders should be the President or the Prelate ouer the presbytery and so continue You will aske mee perhaps how this geare comes about that Beza is so opposite to Cartwright I will tell you my conceit I suppose that matters of their pretended Discipline are growen to greater ripenes in Geneua then they are thankes be to God in England and that therfore Beza is more franke to let vs see what they generallie shoote at then Cartwright dare bee as yet For howsoeuer Cartwright presumed to tell vs as it seemeth vntrulie that their moderator forsooth should be chosen but for one action only and that Caluin being chosen to that office for two yeares so as I take it from two yeares to two yeares misliked that small preheminence should so long remayne with one which in time might breede inconuenience and that Beza also misliked it for that cause Yet now you see that Beza is far from that base conceit thinketh that that office maie bee permanent and further saith that to ordaine it so now certè reprehendi nec potest nec debet it neyther can nor ought surely to bee reprehended And his reason is this for that it hath beene an order that one should bee so chosen to haue such a permanent preheminece in the Church euer since Saint Markes time Nay he is come to this that he is content to yeald in effect that the institution of an Archbishop is agreable to the word of God vz. ex illa generali et verissima Apostolica regula c. according to that generall true Apostolicall rule which appoynteth that all thinges should bee done orderly in the house of God Est igitur or do c. There is therefore saith hee an order in it selfe and by it selfe prescribed by God but the reason or vse of that order and the manner of it dependeth vppon the circumstances of times places and persons and is as men speake according to Lawes positiue Nowe if these thinges that Beza writteth bee true and that he himselfe peraduenture could bee well inough pleased to enioye such an office if the sayde circumstances of time and place might serue his turne to obtaine it then we perceaue that such additions of titles and preheminence so he and his fellowes may haue them do make no such alteration of the essence of the ministerie as with vs is pretended There is great barking against the church of England for that by Act of parliament some partes of the Canon Law are retained and to bee vsed by our Bishops for the better gouernment of the Church insomuch as the very name of the Canon law is become odious the commō sort of simple men of the factious crue verily supposing that the name of such a law rule or institution is popish vnlawfull and diuelish and therfore they crie out crucifie it crucifie it awaie with it wee will not be ruled by it we will none of it As though they shoúld saye we are lawlesse men for rules and orders we detest them whatsoeuer seemeth good in our own eyes that we will doe at the least if we euer yeald our obediēce to any churchlaw it shall bee surelie of our own making sie vppon all former Councels sie vppon all those decisions which the auncient fathers made sie vpon all old and auncient constitutions And thus in effect they write speake in their libels and ordinarie table-talke whereas notwithstanding if there be anie thing in the Canon-law that will serue their purposes they can be contēt to steale it thence to take to themselues thereby the commendation which is due to the true authors fathers of it Cartwright his fraternitie in their essentiall draught of discipline haue drawen more then seuen partes of eight of it out of the Canon-lawe and auncient constitutions Viretus perceiuing but too late what hindrance grew to the platforme of their new discipline by the vtter abolishing of the Canon-law at once and as it were in a furie which he supposed did wold still haue bridled princes if it had been retained and still in force sheweth his dislike of such rashnes in these wordes They thought it a goodly reformation in the Church to abolish all the Canons decrees with the good statutes which the auncient fathers and Doctors hadde ordayned to mayntaine the good discipline in the church The chiefe point indeed that grieued Viretus as there it appeareth at large was this because Princes by that meanes had drawen their necks frō vnder the yoke of discipline A matter so much misliked by them as that he is flatte of opinion that it had beene better for the Church to haue kept the old Pope still then by abrogating of the Canon law and in giuing to Princes so great authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall so to haue subiected her selfe to a new kind of papacie