the other is a mere denyall or negation of faith of a positiue article and is as well in horses or asses as in men onlie with this difference that men are capable and may haue the contrarie positiue act but horses and asses cannot If your faith therefore of the negatiue articles which you houlde be of the first kinde you are bounde to prooue it by positiue testimonie of holy scripture If it be onlie of the second kinde then haue you no more faith in these articles then haue horses asses or other brute beastes Nowe to the fathers testimonies so farr as they may seeme to make anie thinge against the catholicke doctrine of traditions or the churches authoritie I answere supposinge they sounde as you sett them downe which I will not stande to examine here that whatsoeuer is prooued by traditions or the churches iudgment is warranted by the scripture which geueth testimonie to the churche and traditions Which answere is S. August lib. 1. cont Crescon cap. 33. PILK Therefore concerninge the profe of our faith in the negatiue points of purgatorie Reall presence Sacrifice of the Masse sith there is noe footinge for them in the worde of God we answere with Basill that it is not faith but a manifest defection from faith to denie that which is written or to bringe in anie thinge that is not written where as Christ IESVS our Lorde saith my sheepe heare my voice CHAMP The iudicious reader shal be iudge whether these catholike articles haue not much faster footinge in the holy scriptures then your contiarie negatiues Neither doth S. Basill anie wayes fauour you For he confirminge his sayinge with these wordes of our Sauiour my sheepe heare my voyce excludeth not that worde of our Sauiour which is more properlie his worde then the scripture For he sayth not my scriptures but my sheepe heare my voyce therfore he speaketh of the voyce as it is deliuered by worde and not as it is written PILK And yett to satisfy you we shall finde sufficient weapons out of the scriptures to lay these Anekims on the grounde Nowe as the Roman Emperour that meant to subdue Germanie brought out his armie and put them in aray vppon the sea shoore and presentlie charged them to gather shelles tellinge them that they were spoyles of the Ocean due to the capitoll So you hauinge marshalled your forces and putt them in order tell your reader that the whole body of them is but a Scheleton bare bones tyed together with drye Sinewes and then without question you will attaine a glorious victorie and bringe spoyles fitt for the vaticane Yet you doubt not but your treatise will please some mens appetite and I am of your minde for like lippes like lettuce Thus from your prolusion I come to your mayne battaille which thus you beginne CHAMP What sharpe weapons you wil finde in the scriptures for your negatiue faith or no beleefe I will with patience expect and hauinge with all indifferencie pondered them I will tell you with all sinceritie what weight they are of in my iudgment In the meane tyme I must tel you that your conclusion seemeth to me as litle wittie as all the rest of your discourse is learned and therfore findinge by the litle experience I haue of you that such lettuce sute well with your lippes I leaue them wholy to your selfe Manuall The first controuersie It is knowne that the catholike Roman churche doth admitte more bookes and parcelles of holy Bible for scripture then the protestants doe and consâ—quently acknowledge a larger Canon then they and yett notwithstandinge shee teacheth PILK The Grecians are euer children rightlie fitteth you Romanists that still lispe like littell children and excellentlie speake without sence For to say the catholike Romane church is as good sence as the vniuersall particular churche CHAMP It is your dull vnderstandinge and not our lisping language that maketh these wordes the Catholicke Roman â—hurâ—h without sence to you For the attribute Romane doth not restraine anie whit the amplitude of the signification of that worde catholicke or vniuersall either in reâ—pect of tyme or place as you ignorantlie imagine but doth onlie distinguish it from all such sects as falselie and presumptuously terme themselues catholike but dare not call themselues RomaÌ„s or Roman Catholickes As in former ages the worde catholike was added to the name christian for the same purpose as auncient Pacianus signifieth Therefore when we say a Roman Catholike we woulde say no more but a true and not a falsely termed catholike And because you are a member of one of those sects which are discried by this worde Romane you hate it as theeues hate the light whereby they are discouered PILK For who can conceiue the catholike churche to be Roman which was in the worlde before Rome it selfe was for it is the generall assembly of the Saints Heb. 12. â—3 from Abell the first iust vnto the last that shall beleeue in Christe as S. Aug speaketh Moreouer all the nations in the worlde not the Romans were promised to Christ psal 2. Aske of me and I will geue thee the gentiles for thine inheritance and the vttermost partes of the earth for thy possession and so S. Aug writeth that God promised to the seede of Abraham not the Romans but all the gentils and sealed it with an oathe by which promise it came to passe that manie nations not contayned vnder the Roman iurisdiction receiued the Gospell and were ioyned vnto the churche CHAMP There is no greater difficultie to conceiue howe the catholike churche may be called Roman then howe the christian churche which denomination began first at Antioch is called Catholike And if you would knowe he reason why it is denominated of Rome rather then of Antioche or Hierusalem it is because S. Peeter who was Bishoppe of Rome receiued promise of our Sauiour Christ that his churche shoulde be builte vppon him as vppon a firme rocke and that hell gates shoulde neuer preuaile against it Which promise our Sauiour Christ hauinge performed it is come to passe that the churche of Christe which was first called christian then Catholike is nowe called Roman and thus much for the name RomaÌ„ Nowe I woulde haue you marke that whatsoeuer you say in proofe of this attribute catholike you say in condemnation of your owne protestanticall assemblies which were neuer hearde of before Martin Luther no more then the Arrians were before Arrius and the rest of the sects and heresies before theire maisters and authours Which one argument had you but anie indifferencie ioyned with anie meane iudgment woulde be sufficient to make you detest the felloweshippe of such newe maisters PILK Besides the moderne Romane churche hath made a defection from that which the primatiue Roman church maintayned in so much that S. Paules Epistles written to the auncient RomaÌ„s may iustlie be called an antilogie of that Religion which nowe is professed in the cittie of Rome CHAMP Some substantiall proofe
vnderstoode him you would neuer haue dreamed of anie Antithesis betwixt my position his doctrine Hee speakinge manifestlie of that seruice which is due onlie vnto God called of diuines Latria whereof my position is not meant And if to make your Antithesis good you will contend that there is no other religious woshippe or seruice but onlie that which is called Latria and is only due vnto God learne of S. Aug to correct your sencelesse errour Who disputing against Faustus and haueinge confessed the religious worshippe of Martyrs to preuent your errour addeth these wordes But with that worshippe which in Greeke is called Latria and in Latin cannot be expressed in one worde being a seruice due onlie to the diuinitie we neither worshippe nor teache to be worshipped but God onlie Reade the whole chapter and see his doctrine more at large and you shall finde that in S. Aug. opinion Christian religion doth not forbidde the religious worshippe of maâ—tirs who are no more to be called dead men then Abraham Isaac and Iacob of whom our Sauiour himselfe testifieth that they are liuinge Matt 22 32 PILK To pray to the angells and Saincts in heauen is lawfull and derogateth no whit at all from the mediation of Christ The martirs are nominated in their place and order but yett are not prayed vnto by the priest that offereth Sacrifice That prayer which is not made by Christ not onlie doth not abolish sinne but it selfe is turned into sinne CHAMP Thoughe I be alreadie wearie of your impertinencies yett will I not stick to refute this last which is as apparant as the rest First therefore thoughe you take the wordes of S. Aug. as nakedlie as you sett them downe yett doe they sounde noe Antithesis with my position hee onlie denyinge that Sacrifice is to be offered to martyrs which the manuall affirmeth not Secondlie S. Aug. speaketh onlie of such inuocation as the heathens vsed to theire false Gods as you your selfe cannot denie if you would but read that same chapter which is by you alleaged and therfore his doctrine cannot coÌ„tradict my position which maketh not Saincts to be Gods nor yett to be worshipped as such Furthermore in this your allegation I note the shamefull beggarie and miserie of your cause which is such that you cannott begge or borrowe of the holy Fathers the least seeminge couer for one soare without gaulinge or discoueringe another For whilst you would couer your heresie of not prayinge to Saincts with a patch borrowed of S. Aug you shameleslie discouer and lay open that other heâ—esie of yours wherein you denie the sacrifice of the churche I will sett downe S. Aug wordes that all such as are not as wilfullie blinde as your selfe may see both your vanitie in this Antithesis the confutation of your heresie against the sacrifice of the newe Testament The Gentils saith he built temples erected alters ordered priests and did sacrifice to such Gods to witt Hercules Romulus and the like But we builde not churches to our Martyrs as to Gods but memories as to men departed whose soules liue with God neither doe we erect altars there to Sacrifice thereon to the Martyrs but we Sacrifice to one God whoe is our God and the God also of the Martyrs in which sacrifice they are named in theire place and rancke as men of God who vanquished the world in confessinge him bu they are not inuocated to witt as Gods by the priest that sacrificeth for he sacrificeth to God and not to them thoughe he sacrifice in their memorie because he it the priest of God and not of them And the sacrifice is the Boddie of Christ c. Your other testimonie out of S. Aug. vppon the psalme 108. is yett more foolishlie alleaged As thoughe for soothe those prayers which are made to God by his Saincts were not made vnto him by his sonne our Sauiour Your peruersitie hath made you intollerablie ignorant if you thinke so Againe S. Aug. there speaketh nothinge of prayers made to Saincts but of prayers made by Iudas who sellinge and betrayinge Christ did not onlie not pray by him but against him which being so hence I gather that if you sawe and read S. Aug. your selfe you haue a most wicked minde wittinglie labouringe to induce youâ—lesse carefull and warie reader into errour A degree of malice almost proper to the deuill himselfe PILK The like may bee verified of the rest CHAMP If you cal this verifyinge I desire you should alway plead against me and neuer for me For hitherto haue you not verified anie apparant contrarietie betwixt my position and the fathers doctrine thoughe you bragginglie pretend to bringe direct contradiction betweene them And in this dare I stand to the iudgment of your owne patron of Canterburie vppon condition that he will read the places in the fathers cited by you I will except that of S. Cyprian brought for the 7. Antithesis which though no more true indeede then the rest yett hath it a more apparancie in wordes then the rest and so is willinglie vnderstoode by your selfe and all the aduersaries of S. Peters primacie After your Antithesis you putt downe a roll of forged positions as thoughe I had imposed them vppon you and your fellowe protestants To which I answere first in generall that if it had not pleased you to winke att and ouerlooke that which I say neither confusedlie nor obscurelie in my preface you would not if you would haue sayd the truth charge me with forgeing anie positions against you I will here sett downe myne owne wordes which shall cleare me of that imputation I thinke euen with mine aduersaries if they be not wilfullie malignant Thus therefore I say there First I jett downe the Catholike Roman beliefe in direct and plaine positions c. And last of all I putt downe the position contradictorie to the Catholike doctrine to the end that the indfferent reader may more easilie iudge whether doctrine hath better grounde in holy Scripture And further that he that will impugne this treatise may see what he hath to prooue if hee wil prooue any thinge to purpose That is if he will prooue anie thinge against the Catholike Faith which onlie I vndertake in the Manuall to prooue and not to impugne or disprooue the protestants further then the proofe of one contradictorie is the disproofe of the other Without reason therefore doe you charge me with forgeinge positions thoughe amongst these which I sett downe vnder this note in the margent Protestants positioÌ„s some were founde which they doe not mantayne which whether it be so or no we shall presentlie examine for I putt the position contradictorie to the Catholike vnder the title of protestant position for this cause as I haue sayde before that if anie protestant will denie or impugne the catholike position prooued by me he may see the direct position which he is to prooue If therefore there be anie
be god worde that they are manifest of themselues and neede not to be prooued Because you will euer be impertinent not knowinge what you say nor what you shoulde prooue and yet are you so full of bable that you will still be be talkinge If one shoulde aske your aduise howe he might knowe good Phisicke and you shoulde say vnto him it is an easie thinge to knowe that For that phisike which coÌ„forteth nature expelleth disseases and restoreth health is certainlie good phisicke doe you thinke he shoulde be much wiser for your aduise whatsoeuer you thinke I knowe he shoulde be as wise as he was before Such is your directions to knowe the scripture vnto such as doe not alreadie knowe or beleeue them And seeinge our Sauiour himselfe prescribeth as a necessarie rule to knowe the scriptures the performance of his fathers will before his doctrine canne be vnderstoode as you well note but stil against your selfe it is euident that they are not so cleare of theÌ„selues nor yett so easie to be knowne as you pretend For that doctrine which must first be practised by humble obedience before it can be vnderstoode or knowne to be of God as our Sauiour saith of the scripture noe man that is not deuoyde of all iudgment wil say is easie to be knowne euen by it selfe PILK I might add all those arguments which both the fathers and schoolemen produce out of the scriptures themselues to prooue them the ofspringe of God which if they be stronge against gentiles I knowe not howe they should be weake against you vid. the maiestie of the doctrine the simplicitie and puritie of the stile antiquitie of the bookes truth of oracles and predictions that manie ages after held their complement with sundrie other to the like purpose but I passe by them and shutt vppe this pointe with that speeche of your Stewchus CHAMP You were well aduised to passe by all such arguments of the fathers and schoolemen as woulde nothinge serue your purpose I woulde you had been so aduised from the begininge for soe shoulde I not haue hadd the labour and paynes to transcribe so manie impertinencies of yours as I haue been forced to doe hitherto The arguments which you here mention taken by themselues are farr from makinge anie sufficient grounde to builde our faith vppon thoughe they are probable and prudent considerations and ioyned with the authoritie of the churche and tradition wherby â—e receiue the scriptures they are not without some force to persuade the bookes of the holy Bible to be gods worde and to be written by his inspiration But take you experience of them in your selfe and see whether they are sufficient to persuade that the bookes of Wisdome Ecclesiastious and the rest receiued generallie by the whole churche and namelie by the fathers and schoolemen whose authoritie here you seeme to vrge for canonicall are trulie gods worde and written by his holy spiritt And if you finde them not sufficient groundes for these why woulde you intrude them vppon vs as sufficient for the rest But lett vs heare what you bringe out of our Stewchus PILK They which thinke the authoritie of holy scriptures whereunto all the worlde nowe assenteth to depende vppon the readers faith and not to bringe with them certaine diuine and most potent reasons that drawe vnto them the iudgements of greate mindes are therefore deceiued because they are not of theire number whose mindes both by naturall goodnes and continuall exercitation of wisdome doe prudentlie apprehend the highest and truest thinges whereas if anie haue that wisedome geuen him to esteeme the greatnes of thinges as they deserue he shall feele the weight of diuine oracies to be so greate that the pronunciation of them onlie would suffice to begett a most firme and suddaine faith CHAMP The whole space of a thousand and fiue hundred yeeres geuen you to take your testimonies out of might haue sufficed without alleaginge of moderne writers and those oâ— small note and lesse authoritie Stewchus is an author not wholly receiued and the booke cited by you is put in the index of bookes to be amended or corrected and therefore the testimonie thereof thoughe it were otherwise most formall as it is not is of noe authority against vs. And truelie I wounder you are not ashamed to bring such stuffe for the proofe of your faith and doctrine And that in such sorte as you haue lett passe all other and made choyce of this as of moste strength and force Lett the iudicious reader nowe iudge by that which hath been sayde both by you and me whether the scriptures are so clearelie knowne by themselues and by theire owne light that they neede no other proofe to be gods worde and written by his spiritt And whether it he a needles or disorderlie thinge for him that pretendeth to prooue all the points of his faith by holy scripture to prooue first that there is a holie scripture and then to prooue in what bookes it is contayned And lastlie whether because you refusinge traditions and the churches authoritie by which onlie the holy scriptures are knowne cannot prooue the scriptures to be such and therefore receiuinge them vpon the credit of your owne fancie which consequentlie must be the fundamentall rule of your whole Faith doe not recurre to that shifte to say that the scriptures are so euident of themselues that they neede noe other proofe or testimonie but themselues MANVALL SECTION 7. And here occur by the way two thinges worthy of note The one that the scripture cannot be an vniuersall rule of our faith seeinge somethinges are to be beleeued without proofe of scripture as are for example that there is an holy scripture contayninge gods worde and reuelation and that these these bookes be such therefore of necessitie must there be some other rule of our faith more vniuersall then the scriptures and consequentlie before the scriptures And this cannot be but the authoritie of gods churche which is clearely S. August doctrine who was not a frayde to say I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the authoritie of the church doth moue me Seeinge therefore the authoritie of the churche is a sufficient motiue for vs to beleeue what is scripture why shoulde it not haue the like authoritie with vs in other points of faith which is also S. Aug argument in the same place but I will notwithstandinge satisfie our aduersaries in theire owne humour PILK Your former grounde beinge a bedd of sande that scriptures cannott be prooued by scriptures these conclusions that you doe builde vppon it doe of themselues fall to the grounde CHAMP When you shall followinge your principles proue out of the scripture either that there is a scripture or in what bookes it is contayned without supposinge some scripture without proofe then may you terme my grounde to be a bedd of sande and I will also beleeue it so to be But till then I will esteeme it a rock that