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church_n	brethren_n	pastor_n	reverend_n	3,178	5	16.2144	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A94733	An apology or plea for the Two treatises, and appendix to them concerning infant-baptisme; published Decemb. 15. 1645. Against the unjust charges, complaints, and censures of Doctor Nathanael Homes, Mr Iohn Geree, Mr Stephen Marshall, Mr John Ley, and Mr William Hussey; together with a postscript by way of reply to Mr Blakes answer to Mr Tombes his letter, and Mr Edmund Calamy, and Mr Richard Vines preface to it. Wherein the principall heads of the dispute concerning infant-baptism are handled, and the insufficiency of the writings opposed to the two treatises manifested. / By Iohn Tombes, B.D.	Tombes, John, 1603?-1676.	1646 (1646)	Wing T1801; Thomason E352_1; ESTC R201072	143,666	170

these present Reverend Brethren VNderstanding that there is some disquiet in your Churches about Poedobaptisme and being moved by some that honour you much in the Lord and desire your comfortable account at the day of Christ that I would yeeld that a Copy of my Examen of Master Marshall his Sermon of Infant-Baptisme might be transcribed to be sent to you I have consented thereto and do commend it to your examination in like manner as you may perceive by the reading of it I did to Master Marshals not doubting but that you will as in Gods presence and accountable to Christ Iesus weigh the thing remembring that of our Lord Christ Ioh. 7. 24. Iudge not according to the appearance but judge righteous judgement To the blessing of him who is your God and our God your Iudge and our Iudge I leave you and the flocke of God over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers and rest From my study at the Temple in London May 25. 1645. Your Brother and fellow servant in the worke of Christ IOHN TOMBES THe accounting of this act a shewing of my scorne of Master Thomas Goodwin Master Vines and Master Marshall I take rather to be the effect of a distempered palat than a right-discerning taste After this sundry things happened which did induce me to yeeld to the importunity of those that sollicited earnestly the publishing of my writings for the publike good I had sent to Master Marshall after his returne from Scotland to know what he would do about the motions I made in the Epilogue of my Examen for the discussing of the point in difference between him and me The best of the answer I received was that sith I had now a place for my Ministery without baptizing Infants he expected I would be quiet About that time I had occasion to make triall of the Assemblies approbation of me The Examiner told me that there were many of the Assembly that did scruple in Conscience the giving approbation to me because of my opinion The Directory had been published and an Ordinance of Parliament to make the not using it penall Preparations were to send Bills to the King among which I assured my selfe that would be one which if once past it would be too late to make an afterplea The Sermons in publique were still as earnest against this tenet as ever The people of the City much enquired into this matter A publique disputation was once allowed about it to which I was earnestly solicited but for weighty reasons refused it Sundry came to me to request the perusall of my papers for their satisfaction many learned godly and prudent persons both of them that differed in judgement as well as those that agreed with me moved me to have them printed for the bringing of truth to light I saw not wherein any danger to the State or Church might be created by the printing of them and which was beyond all to me I was confirmed it was a truth I held had tried all fit meanes to have it examined had been guided in the searching of it and preserved for this businesse by many remarkeable providences and thereupon after prayer to God by my selfe and with others for his direction I yeelded to the printing of them not out of a restlesse spirit to vent my selfe as Master Marshall imagined nor out of any mind to encrease the divisions and confusions of the time then which there is nothing my spirit and waies more abhorre but to vindicate truth performe my duty to which I was bound by solemne Covenant to do my best for the preventing of that sad evill of removing out of the Ministery and out of Communion and out of the State also them that could not yeeld to Infant-Baptisme which is more likely then any thing to encrease our divisions and make tumults especially if the relations and instigations of some fiery spirits prevaile And in this I doubt not but I have dealt faithfully to God and to the State and charitably to other men without violating any engagement what ever I suffer in mine owne person I must confesse had I seen any inclination in the Assembly or Master Marshall or other leading-men to examine my writings in a faire Scholastike way and had I had meanes to be able to beare the charges of an impression and no Lawes likely to be established to make the holding of my opinion penall I had resolved not to publish my writings in English but in Latine and therefore I first framed my Exercitation in Latine conceiving the Assembly would have apprehended my aime and intention to be to deale only with Schollars in this matter but all things falling out crosse to my expectation I conceived it was the will of God it should be printed as it was Thus much for the justifying the publishing of my Treatises The next charge against me is my abusing my Antagonists And in this Master Geree in his Epistle to the Lord Mountague speakes thus The Author whom I answer hath used his opponents more coursly then was conventent to their worth and places But all men count his ●leightings of opponents a blemish to his worke Master Marshall in his Defence Pag. 244. For even thither have some sent your writings and sufficiently in them shewed your scorne of M. Thomas Goodwin Master Vines and my selfe as our friends do from thence write to us And Pag. 53. I alleadge all this to shew you should not thus vilifie and scorne their meaning the Ancients practice and grounds as if the Century writers and generally all Protestant writers yea Master Marshals owne friend if I mistake not The●philus Philokyrtaces Lon●ardiensis in his Dies Dominica when they note the naevi quisquiliae blemishes and errors of Fathers and Councils did vilifie and scorne them which if it be an uncharitable imputation to them it is so to me unlesse it be thought that men cannot conceive bad enough of an Antipaedobaptist Pag. 62. throughout your whole Treatise you strive to make an ostentation of reading and put abundance of scoffes and jeeres upon them who are of contrary mind to you Pag. 76. You powre out such abundance of scorne upon them who think otherwise then you do I answer 1. That the words interpreted as scoffing scorning and jeering are not such but usuall School-expressions frequent in Schooles and in the most temperate writings of the most moderate men of the same profession towards them that dissent from them so that I assure my selfe had not my Antagonists before distasted my worke and consequently the Author they would not have been so construed How ever Master Geree say all men count my sleighting opponents a blemish to my worke yet one I am sure commended my writing for the contrary that I had discovered the weaknesse of the opponents by such expressions nor did my Father Scudder except against those passages as offensive which Master Marshall doth though more then halfe was read to him and observed

written for me I sent my own to Master Marshall who received it December 9 1644. About a fortnight after Master Marshall sent me word that he would find a time to speake with me I sent him word that for the returning answer to my writing I would not straiten him but forasmuch as by his rejecting me I missed being nominated to the Temple and I was then brought to great straights I requested that he would declare as occasion should offer it selfe whether he held me fit for the Ministery or not notwithstanding my dissent from him in that point His answer was he desired to know first whether I would keep my opinion to my selfe I returned this answer in writing by my Father Scudder I request you to returne this answer to Master Marshall that whereas I requested him to declare whether he thought me fit for the Ministery or not notwithstanding my dissent abo●t Poedobaptism and he demands of me a promise of silence in that point I conceive he is bound by the rules of justice mercy and prudence to do it without requiring that condition and that he hath no reason to be jealous of me considering my carriage in this matter Neverthelesse when I shall understand what promise he would have from me and what is intended to be done by him for the discussing the point and clearing of Truth to which I ought not be wanting and what advantage I may have by his agency for my imployment and maintenance I shall give him a punctuall answer and am resolved for peace sake to yeeld as farre as I may without v●●lating the solemne Covenant I have taken and betraying truth and innocency Decem. 26. This begat the friendly conference mentioned by Master Marshall which was Decem. 30. 1644. in the morning afore the Assembly sate At the very beginning of that Conference Master Marshall having this last written message in his hand reading those words and he demands of me a promise of silence in that point told me that he did not demand of me a promise of silence in that point for that was beyond his line this was his very expression As soon as ever I heard those words I conceived my selfe freed from the snare I most feared of making a promise which as the case might stand I could not keep with a good conscience Then Master Marshall spake to this effect that yet for the satisfaction of those who should enquire of him concerning me he desired to know my intentions Whereupon I dealt freely that I intended not to publish my opinion in the Pulpit if I might be where I should not be put to baptize for I conceived it not likely that there would be a Reformation of that thing in this Age there having been so long a practise of Infant-Baptisme and such a prejudice in men against the opposers of it yet I told him that if any should preach to that people I had charge of that which I conceived to be an errour I did resolve to oppose it there otherwise other mens preaching abroad should be no provocation to me So that it is cleare I made no promise and that intimation of mine intentions which I made was only that I intended not to preach my opinion in that place unlesse provoked there And this any man may perceive was my meaning by Master Marshals owne relation in which the prov●● is rightly expressed That if any should preach in my Pulpit for baptizing Infants I tooke my selfe bound in the same place to preach against it otherwise mens preaching or printing abroad should be no provocation to me to wit to preach that opinion in that place And whereas Master Marshall alleadgeth this for his Quietus est he might have remembred that I told him in expresse termes that it Lawes were likely to be enacted to make the deniall of Infant-Baptisme penall I held my selfe bound in conscience to appeare in publique about that matter yea and Master Marshall told me he intended me some animadversions on my Examen whence it may be collected that neither Master Marshall nor my selfe had agreed to lay aside the dispute it selfe It is true Master Marshall did endeavour to possesse me with this That Reformation of Congregations might be without altering the use of Infant-Baptisme To which I answered that though much might be done other wayes yet it would never be right till Christs way of baptizing were restored About two houres after Master Marshall comming to me in the presence of Master Obadiah Sedgwicke repeating the intimation of my intention aforenamed with the proviso told me he would give testimony in my behalfe as I desired Upon this I parted with Master Marshall and Master Sedgewicke walking with me commended my proceeding in that matter and made a notion to me which came to nothing Upon this I went home very chearfull not only because I prized amity with Master Marshall and there was a likely way of my imploiment and maintenance but chiefly because I was freed from that I feared as a snare the promise of silence and there were great hopes that my brethren in the Ministery would not be rigid in ejecting out of the Ministery and Communion those that dissented from them in that point and so separation and mutuall persecution might be prevented which was and is still the great feare that possesseth my spirit and liberty might in time be given for the shining forth of the light in this thing and by degrees Reformation might be perfected which I conceived the only safe and happy way Upon these considerations I acquainted sundry of my near friends with this mercy of God to me and being requested to joyne in keeping a day of Thanksgiving at Anth●l●● I 〈◊〉 1. following for publique mercies I made a speciall memento in my booke of speciall passages of my life to blesse God that day for the conference I had with Master Marshall in peace and amity What Master Marshall did after for me I do not well know I beleeve he did as he promised and after a triall of me three Lords-daies at the Temple I was in the end of Ianuary chosen by the Treasurers and and sundry others of the members of both the honourable Societies of the Temples to be their Preacher for a yeare After these things being acquainted with a Law made in New-England and proceedings against those that denied baptizing of Infants I yeelded to the sending of my Examen thither though not so large as it is now printed for the dissertation about a speech of Master Cotton Part. 3. Sect. 3. Pag 42 43. and some other things were added since meerly to occasion the study of this matter more exactly and to allay the vehemency of their spirits and proceedings against those that dissented from them and therewith I sent this short Epistle To all the Elders of the Churches of Christ in New-England and to each in particular by name to the Pastor and Teacher of the Church of God at Boston there

words 〈◊〉 the●e For the Covenant or Promise of Grace that is righteousnesse and life as Christ though I acknowledge a peculiar promise to Abrahams naturall posterity mentioned Rom. 11. 27. yet I know not that God hath made such a Covenant to any much lesse to all the naturall beleeving seed of any beleeving Gentile and Propos 3. I say they have some promises though generall indefinite and conditionall And I mean by generall and indefinite such as determine not the kind of good promised nor the particular person and therefore are true if performed to any persons in any sort of good and conditionall upon condition of faith and obedience as when it is said the generation of the righteous shall be blessed his righteousnesse to childrens children to such as keep his Covenant Ps 103. 17. 18. Ps 112. 2. c. I tell Mr Marshall if he can shew any more promises then I doe I shall count them a treasure if not why doth he endeavour to make me and my opinion odious to the people as if I put all the children of the whole Church out of the Covenant of Grace as I doe the children of the Turkes and acknowledge no more promise for the one then for the other whereas when he hath said as much as he can for them he can bring no more promise for them then I doe nor dares reject the limitations I restraine them by But sayes Mr Marshall you leave them to have their actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the Devill I ask whither the children have actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the Devill afore they are baptized or not If he say they have not then by not baptizing I leave them not in the visible kingdome of the Devill they are out of the visible kingdome of the Devill though they be not baptized if he say they have their actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the Devill afore they are baptized then how is it true which the Protestants disputing against Bellarmin alleage against the necessity of baptizing infants to salvation that the children of beleevers are holy afore baptisme The truth is I neither leave infants in the Devills nor Gods visible kingdome for I conceive they are in neither kingdom visibly till they declare by their profession to whom they belong visibly Mr Marshall used often this expression of belonging to the visible kingdom of the Devill and I told him Examen pag. 41. I feared he did it ad faciendum populum to move the people by affrighting them by a bug-beare word if they keep their children from baptisme then they leave them to have an actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the Devill or to please them by making them beleeve that by baptisme their children are put out of the visible kingdome of the Devill This I said not judging his heart but being jealous least it was so and I confesse I am still suspicious he doth so because he still useth it after he hath been told it and it is a meer engine to stirre popular affections For how hath the unbaptized infant an actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the Devill unlesse it be true that all unbaptized persons have an actuall standing in the visible kingdome of the Devill which is false in the Catechumeni of old the converted theefe on the Crosse Constantine the Great and many others who were in the visible kingdom of the Christ afore they were baptized On the other side thousands of people in America baptized by the Spaniards had as visible standing in the Devills kingdome as before I confesse when the baptized professeth the faith of Christ then baptisme is a note of a visible member and a distinguishing badge between the people of God and the Devill and so by baptisme a person is exhibited a member of the Church but otherwise I see no reason why an infant that makes no profession of Christ should be counted after baptisme a visible member of the Church more then before Let a child of a Christian be baptized and after being an infant and taken by a Turke be circumcised wherein is that child more a visible member of the Church of Christ then a Turkes child or is hee not rather a member of the Church of Mahomet then of Christ Are the Janizaries any whit the more Christians because they were baptized infants of Christian Greekes Protestant writers are wont to define the visible Church of Christians a number of persons that professe the faith of Christ So Art 19 of the Church of England and all sorts of Protestant writers Now that which makes the visible Church makes each member a visible member and that is profession Baptisme and the Lords Supper and hearing are notes as they signify profession otherwise if a person be baptized if he should heare or receive the Lords Supper and did not professe the faith he should not be a visible member for all that I confesse I have met with some writings which put Baptisme into the definition of the Church as necessary to the being of a visible Church and the words in the Confession of Faith of the 7 Churches of Anabaptists about London being baptized into that faith Artic. 33. are somewhat doubtfull though they seem rather to import that Baptisme is necessary to the right order of a Christian Church then to the being of a Church and I confesse they that hold that members are added to the Church by Baptisme and not otherwise and hold a nullity of Paedo baptisme must needs say the Churches that have no other then Infant-Baptisme are no true Churches nor their members Church-members as Master Ma●shall sayes pag. 84. of his Defence and so voluntary separation necessary But these points of the necessity of right Baptisme not onely to the right order but also to the being of a visible Church and Church-member and so voluntary separation barely for the defect of it I have ever disclaimed as considering the many errours and ill consequences that would follow thereupon and though provocations still increase yet I have in my practise shunned separation from my disenting brethren and I presume though Mr Marshall count right Baptisme a necessary duty yet he will be more advised then to make it essentiall either constitutivè or consecutivè to the being of a Church or Christian either visible or invisible for feare of giving too much advantage to Separatists and Seekers I suppose in reference to the present point this is the truth that however every infant is either in the invisible kingdome of God or Satan that is elect or reprobate yet no child till hee make profession doth visibly belong either to the one or to the other I acknowledge that in the visible Church of the Jewes the infants were reckoned to the Church and the reason was from the peculiar Church-state of the Jewes For then God took the whole family of Abraham together in one day and after the whole nation of the