must not goe to them but similia ad pompam non ad pugnam The Analogie betweene a Commonwealth and the Church will not hold as I may touch afterward but this I am sure according to that practise that seven make a Church they may admit five or six whole Churches and a Pastor chosen by none of them may administer the Sacrament to them all at one time but doe we finde whole Corporations goe to the Mayor of another Corporation for Justice Mr. Philips Pastor of the Church in Water-town while Mr. Wilson Pastor of the Church of Boston was here in England went to Boston and administred the Lords Supper to that Church I was not then in the Country but I heard of it soone after when I went over with Mr. Wilson I know no sin in that act I thought to have given some Instances how frequent this was in the Primitive Churches Vind. Cath. Ã 192 ad 196 for one Minister to act officially beyond the people who elected him But Mr. Hudson a man far more able hath set down those examples which I would have given and many more to whom I referre the Reader Yea it was ordinary for the members of one Church to dwell one or two yeares nay six or seven yeares in another Towne and to partake of the Sacraments there as frequently as any of the members of that Church Indeed of late the Elders have not liked this to have them live so remote from the inspection of their owne officers and therefore have required such to joyne with the Church where they dwell this is good and orderly The letters also of Recommendation which the Churches make for the members when they come over hither requiring of the Churches here what communion counsell or comfort they shall need promising the performance of the like debt to others c. 2. Also I saw if a man were excommunicated out of one Church he stood excommunicated out of them all but if a man be disfranchised in one Corporation another Corporation may receive him and give him his freedome if they please this shews there is something more in a Church then in a Commonwealth 3. I saw they preached frequently in other Churches but that it should be onely as gifted brethren this is so harsh to conceive I pray what act doth the mayor of one Corporation do in another Corporation like this that carries authority in it and that here we must distinguish of the Mayor if he did this at home he did it as a Mayor authoritatively but in this Corporation he doth it as a private man Further they are Ministers or Pastors onely to those who elect and the fraternity only elect where there is no officer but there are divers in the severall Townes who are not joyned to the Churches so they did not elect then it seemes they preach as pastors onely to those who elected but to the rest of the Towne as gifted men consequently when God blesses their labours to the conversion of any of those they convert them instrumentally not as Ministers of Christ ordained separated to that worke but onely as gifted men yea they never convert any as Ministers unlesse some of those who elected them be close hypocrites and so they convert them but ordinarily those who choose are reputed godly already and they are Ministers only to them Hence rises that vile notion that some here have taken up That Pastors should preach onely to the edification of the Saints not to others 4. I have heard since I came away that when people have chosen an Officer and had no Officers to ordaine him that the Ministers of other Congregations have done it and the Confession of Church-discipline by the Synod of New England as also Mr. Hooker Survey part 2. pag. 59. allow as much 5. If one Congregation should prove pertinaciously scandalous and hereticall then though they doe not formally excommunicate such a Congregation yet all the Churches in the Country would proceed to the Non-communion of such a Church and for all the Churches to expresse so much to such a Church We do all renounce communion with you c. this amounts to a censure and is equivalent to excommunication containing in it all the effects that appear in excommunication and so I should reckon my selfe as much excommunicated Mr. Burroughs saith They may by a solemne act in the name of Christ Iren. 43. refuse any communion with them till they repent They may declare in the name of Christ that these erring Churches are not to be received into fellowship with any Churches of Christ nor to have communion one with another in the Ordinances of Christ all this solemnly in Christs name Onely some may be will say if this be an Ordinance of Christ bring out the texts to prove this and then we shall see if those texts wil not beare it out that the Churches united thus in this censure have not some authority over that particular Church If you goe to the old politie the Synedrion had power over particular Congregations if to light of nature that will carry it so that we must have texts to decide this Question For my part I must leave this to better heads Laying all together the Churches seeme to pactise as if there were such a Church Some things there are which a little trouble me in this notion that make me not come off so roundly in receiving it I question not the Church-catholicke-visible but I meane that it is one organicall body but as he said Veritas est temporis filia so I beleeve Time will cleave out this but so much I see as commands me to lean to that side I was thinking how dangerous this might prove If the major part of the catholick-visible-Catholick-visible-church should decline grow superstitious c. other Churches yet remaining pure if they did not subject to the major part what then but I saw inconveniences also on the other side if a Congregation be so entire that they can elect ordaine and are exempted from all power then Arians Photinians and all manner of Hereticks may elect ordaine c. who shall deny them and besides suppose the major part of Congregationall Churches should decline they would proceed to Non-communion of other particular Churches more pure and this is in a manner all one Further If so then if a Minister be removed from one Congregation to another or if his people should dye he now is but a private person and may nor baptise c. Hence also he must have another ordination when elected and as oft as he is elected I have not heard any there but here alleadge it I confesse I am not cleare in the practise I have searched to finde what Scripturall grounds there were for it but I find none that these Reverend Elders expresse some have alleadged in conference that Act. 13.3 Paul and Barnabas were ordained before and now they are ordained againe but I finde Mr.
maintaine any Officers I wish there be not too strong arguments to prove that Covetousnesse and Ambition reigne too much amongst this kind of Separatists yet because the proving that there are true visible Churches in England will be of great consequence to the following Discourse as being the ground-work of it I will therefore produce one Argument to prove it and if I can prove that then it will necessarily follow there is a true visible Church on the earth which as I said I thought no Christian dares deny But what daâ—es not the vile heart of man think say or doe if God give it up to its owne blindnesse and wickednesse Master Burroughs making mention of Schusselburgius Iren. pag. 236. who collected the Sects Opinions and wayes of men soone after Luther saith There is not any one strange Opinion amongst us now but you shall finde it amongst them in terminis onely I remember not that one that hath taken some who though they acknowledge the Scripture yet thinke there is no visible Church on the earth Many were the errours that were confuted condemned in the first Synod in New England which errours I finde here in England but there was not this errour amongst them all to my remembrance it was wont to be said of Africa that every yeare it produced a new Monster but now it must be said of England that it hath produced such a Spirituall Monster as no Nation that owned the Scriptures ever did before The Lord save us from our owne hearts But I will now prove the Thesis as I said before there are true visible Churches in England Where there are many Societies of visible Saints and true Ministers consenting together to worship God in his holy Ordinances there are true visible Churches But in England there are many Societies of visible Saints and true Ministers consenting together to worship God in his holy Ordinances Ergo in England there are many true visible Churches The Major is so plaine that none who know what a visible Church is and what the Churches in the Gospel were but must needs yeeld it Here are the essentiall causes of a Church Ergo here is a Church First here is the materiall cause Visible Saints the Ministers also as visible Saints help make up the matter but as they are Ministers they make the Churches Organicall which is more 2 Here is the formall cause their consenting to worship God c. he that yeelds the essentiall causes and yet denies the effect hath lost his reason A Church is any company of Saints in body to set up what Ordinances of God they know This is a true Church and here God dwels In Hos 8.1 saith Mr. Burroughs He speakes of a Church as it is a Homogeneall body but I goe further the Separatists indeed will catch hold of his definition as Cyprian saith the Schismaticks in his time did of that text in Matth. 18.20 to which eh answered very well De unita Eccles and hence they will conclude we are Saints in body ergo we are true Churches But I pray are there not visible Saints also in the Churches from which you irregularly as I shall prove after did separate Are they not as good as your selves Did not you attain to that visibility of Saint-ship which you have while you were in those Churches Doe you set up the Ordinances of God so farre as you know or may know if errour doth not hinder as they doe from whom you have separated Nay you cannot doe it for you neither have men fit for Office nor will you endure to come under Officers and therefore if you looke into the ninth verse of the same Chapter Faciunt faves vespae faciunt Ecclesias Marciouitae Tertul. you shall finde Mr. Burroughs saying That those who love to live without Ordinances from under the government of Christ are those that love to live in the Wildernesse His words may be applyed to many of these Separatists who call for separation from the word as well as to those who are in the world But to my Argument All the quarrell will be about the Ministers The Presbyterians speake the same Language if the words in Body please you the Correlatum of Ecclesiasticall Power is a people embodied in a Church or a Spirituall corporation Gillesp Aar rod. 191. Iren. p. 102. and the consenting together c. as for Mr. Burroughs phrase there being in Body this they like well but so are not those visible Saints I mention say they But to take away that Cavill and so to returne to the Ministers you may know what Mr. B. meanes by being in body by shewing what makes a Church Covenant saith he I know nothing more is required but to manifest their assent to joyne with that Body to set up all the Ordinances of Christ so farre as they know And doe not those visible Saints actually manifest their assent by their continuall attendance upon their Officers in all the Ordinances of God and maintaining their Officers to that intent that they may have the Ordinances of Christ set up amongst them Shall the want of an Adjunct null the Church when as they do the very thing which they should expresse Put case you expresse your assent and doe not the things which you express your assent unto are you therefore a Church because of your expressing your assent What then are those who doe the things though they doe not expresse their assent in words but in Acts This is good and sufficient to prove the essence though both expression and doing is better but of this more after But the Ministers are those who spoyle all there are those who cannot deny there are Ordinances but there are none to administer them and this was the reason which one of the chiefe Members of a Church in London who did use to Prophesie as they call it in the absence or wearinesse of the Pastor gave to an honest man who was troubled because he fell off from the Church and exercising his gifts and turned Seeker I name not the man nor the Church but it is too true Now suppose I could not prove the Ministers to be true Ministers yet those visible Saints which I named before and those whom you call Presbyterians doe meet together conferre pray and fast together watch one over another and so if you wil consider them as Homogeneall Bodies they are as good Churches as those Separatists which have no Officers therefore still there are true visible Churches in England besides the Separatists and so my Argument stands firme But I will prove there are many true Ministers even amongst those whom you call Presbyterial Ministers thus Where there are men sufficiently qualified by God orderly at least for substance called to the Ministry and doe that worke which Christ appointed his Ministers to doe there are true Gospel-Ministers But in many of the Churches of England there are such men ergo in many of the Churches of
convinced of the thing the man after long labouring with him but to no purpose for he was tenacious in his owne opinion and as Hieron said of Jovinianus Non est contentus nostro i. e. humano more loqui altius quiddam aggreditur High flowne in his notions The Elders seeing that obstinacy was joyned to his errour they concluded that either they must cast that Ordinance out of the Church or else cast him out of the Church and so the Church of Rowley did cast him out I know they have been censured for this Act by some here but at the Day of Judgement they will give as comfortable an account for maintaining of the Ordinances of Christ as they shall doe who through their maxime of errours in Non-fundamentalls make way to loose all the Ordinances and then where is the Church From this example of Paul and Silas we may argue if two may sing Hymnes or Psalmes together then foure may so forty the number hinders not for the voyces here of many are no hinderance to the Ordinance but rather they help to stirre up the affections one of another as in those who are filled with wine two singing together or foure doe not hinder their conceited mirth So Christ and his eleven Apostles sang together Whether will these men allow one Christian to sing a Psalme alone by himselfe methinkes the texts and examples mentioned together with Jam. 5.13 Is any man merry 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 let him sing Psalmes are so plaine as no rationall man can deny it But if one may then the Church may There is no act of Worship which any member of the Church is bound to performe but the Church is bound to performe but on the contrary it is not true that what worship the Church doth performe a member of Church can or may for instance for the first part Meditation needs no Organ of the body and therefore I leave that But doth a Member of the Church Pray so doth the whole Church doth he read the Scriptures so they are read in the Church doth he fast and pray so doth the Church doth he sing a Psalme so doth the Church but it is not true on the contrary as appeares in the Sacraments Preaching Discipline c. Neither is that place Revel 15.2 3. of small force to prove singing to be an Ordinance Exposit Hos 2.15 p. 525. Those who overcame the Beast sung the Song of Moses This saith Mr. Burroughs I note because hereby we may see that singing is an Ordinance in the Church of God not only in the time of the Law but in the time of the Gospel c. he was speaking of the text before 4 The fourth ground that moves me is this I know not how it will take with others but with me it is something Psal 92. The title saith it is a Psalme or Song for the day of Sabbath it is cleare that one way of sanctification of the Sabbath was by singing of Psalmes two of the words that Paul uses in Ephes 5.19 are in this Title 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Psalme Spirituall Songs will any say this Psalme was only for those times but now is abolished with the Jewish Sabbath what is that admirable promise in the thirteenth and fourteenth verses vanished and of no use to us Should not Christians apply it and plead it now when as they are planted in Gods house and attending on him on our Christian Sabbath have not we as much need of the Promise as they this with me hath much prevailed if we owne a Christian Sabbath singing of Psalmes may well be owned also for an Ordinance of God now as well as then 5 The fifth is the presence of the Spirit of God with his people in the use of this Ordinance for the proofe of what I say let thousands of Gods people speake if they have not found God in the Ordinance I will not goe so farre as Augustin but our Fathers Confes l. 9 c. 6. l. 10. c. 33. who used it in their families more then some of us doe I am sure they found God and so have many now in these dayes those who have not found God in it they may cavill indeed but let them be rather humbled that God hath not given them what others have tasted those who doe frequently finde God in this Ordinance they will not so slightly and scornfully speake of it as that Sectary did to me but if God had usually manifested his presence with his Churches under the Old and New Testament in the using of this Ordinance this with the former Scriptures alledged prevaile with me to beleeve it is a Gospel ordinance still 6 The last ground that moves me is the practise of the Primitive Churches Antiquity after Scripture is as a Cypher after a Figure and doth increase the number that singing was frequent among those Christians I finde it recorded 1 Eusebius reporteth out of Philo the Lives manners c. of the religious men in Aegypt Marke being sent into Aegypt Eccles hist lib. 2. c. 17 as saith the story to preach Christ he there converted many whose conversation as I said Philo Judaeus a very learned man at that time sets forth in commendation of the Christians Hierom also relates this out of Philo Orationi vacatur Psalmis Catal. script Ecclesiast among other things this he reporteth They contemplate not only Divine things but they make grave Canticles and Hymnes unto God in a more sacred rime of every kind of meeter and verse This Philo a Hebrew flourished about the yeare forty being sent of an Embassage to Caius Caligula about that time so then this was their practise in the Apostles times Philo must needs be borne and well growne in Christs time 2 For Tertullian Mine in Paris print anno 1580. there are two Testimonies brought out of him for singing of Psalmes the one is out of Apol. c. 2. the Letter which Plinius Secundus wrote to Trajan in behalfe of the Church where he mentions the practise the other is out of Cap. 39. Apol. shewing the Discipline of the Christians and there it is mentioned but I finde two other places in him besides these as cleare as those one is l. 2. ad uxorem having spoken strongly against Christians marrying with Infidels he shewes the contrary how good it is for Christians to marry with Christians and among other things this he mentions Sonant inter Duos Psalmi Hymni mutuò provocant quis melius Deo sua canet but most cleare is that place Cap. 3. De Animâ as for his opinion De effigie animae I leave that but there he makes mention of a Sister of their Church who had the gifts of Revelations which it seemes shee had in the Church on the Lords Day As the Scriptures are read or Psalmes are sung he reckons up other Ordinances Prayer c. then matter for visions were administred c. Now this
the people being but a homogeneall body to reject i.e. excommunicate an ossicer will cost more to prove had Reverend Mr. Hooker beene alive and saw what work Church-members make here in England in very many Churches I thinke it would have caused him to bethinke himselfe againe of the peoples power Something we heare of is done in a Church not farre from the place where he lived it cannot be kept close the light of that fire shines into England For the people to withdraw their subjection from such an officer when there are no other officers to joyne with them to excommunicate him this is not denied for by their subjection to him they made him their officer that was some part so they may withdraw their subjection againe But for Excommunication Mr. Cotton saith It is one of the highest acts of rule in the Church Keys p. 16 and therefore cannot be performed but by some Rulers Mr. Burroughs saith Iren. 51. If the Church be without officers they cannot doe that which belongs to officers to doe they have no Sacraments amongst them neither can they have any spirituall jurisdiction exercised amongst them onely brotherly admonition and withdrawing from such as walke disorderly for their owne preservation So then here is a way for the people to preserve themselves though they cannot excommunicate and those Texts which Reverend Mr. Hooker brings Matth. 7.15 and Phil. 3.2 doe not prove the Church as a homogencal body to have power to excommunicate their officers though they may prove withdrawing as also Rom. 16.17 may prove it For the reason of his consequence that staple rule ejusdem est Instituere destituere this maxime is turned every way sometimes to prove the people may excommunicate their officers because they doe Instituere The people in Election put forth no act of jurisdiction therefore they may put forth the highest act of jurisdiction in excommunication that there is no act of jurisdiction in election Doctor Ames acknowledgeth Ovas rationales possunt eligere sibi Pastorem sicut sponsa eligit sibisponsum non per jurisdictionem aut Gubernationem sed potius per subjectionem In the answer before he affirmes the same and else-where now what arguing is this Bellar. ener to 2 l. 3. c. 2. S. 19. Ib. S. 13. to argue from subjection to the highest Act of Jurisdiction there was no Authority in election for electio non cogit yet there is more power seene in Civill elections then Church-elections as I shall touch afterward but in Excommunication Authority appeares That also is denied that the people doe instituere in constituted Chruches and ordinarily what may be done in an extraordinary case is no ordinary rule Here the maxime is turned to prove that they may Jnstituere because they can destituere but that will be denyed unlesse it be in the sence before mentioned i. e. in what manner and how farre they did instituere i.e. by a subjection to be their Officer so they may with-draw their subjection from him and not owne him to be their Officer but to Excommunicate is more Quest But suppose this be granted that the Fraternity cannot excommunicate their Officer but with-draw their subjection they may you say and so he ceases to be their Officer but what is he now an Officer to other Churches A. If the with-drawing their subjection and rejecting be irregular then though they make him not their Officer de facto which he is still de jure yet his relation to the Church-Catholick visible doth still hold and another Church giving him a Call he hath then power actu secundâ— to administer the Ordinances there For instance the separatists cast off him whom before they chose for their Officer supposing now unlesse he will renounce his ordination he is no Minister doth he therefore cease to be a Minister how bufie some Congregationall Churches are in with-drawing from their Officers it is too manifest and many goe to the Anabaptists some turne Seekers and-if all the Members doe thus doe they now cease to be Ministers 2 But if the with-drawing be regular the cause just tried c. then that which is sufficient ground for their with-drawing from him is just cause why he should be excommunicated being pertinaciously scandalous or Hereticall as Mr. Hooker supposeth If then the case of a Church be so as they are cast by providence into some remote place where are no Churches besides to combine with then as their election of him c. as I said before may supply the want of ordination so this with-drawing in such an extraordinary case may be Analogum to excommunication but say our Divines if that Church be in combination with other Churches as now under a Classis then the people shall not need to stay there in their with-drawing but the case being judged and tryed by the Classis they as they ordained him when the people elected him the people consenting doe excommunicate him then as a man cast out of one Church is cast out from the Catholick Church visible so he who is cast out from being an Officer to this Church is cast out from being a Minister to the Church-Catholicke visible For the other Argument Burro Iren p. 50 Nort. resp ad Apoll. p. 76 78 the people conveying of power to an Officer I know of no power the people conveyes only a designation of such a person to officiate in this or that Society but their power they receive from Christ immediatly as our Congregationall men affirme and hence they act in his Name not in the name of the Church 5 The last answer I would give to this Proposall is this if you conceive this to be the only way of Reformation then you must give the Ministers strong proofe that you may ordaine the Ministers will as much question your power to ordaine as you question the Bishops power so that we take it for granted you are able to prove this because you are so punctuall you say for reforming by the word But of this practise I much doubt 1 My ground is because I finde not one Iota of any such thing in the New Testament Obj. Though you doe not in the New Testament yet in the Old Testament there is Numb 8.10 A. That place is the only resuge but 1 It is commonly answered That it is no faire arguing to goe to the Old Testament for one thing we would have and when another comes to the same Politie for an argument for their turne now to debarre them and tell them this is the old Politie either leave out the Jewish Politie altogether or else give others leave to fetch Arguments from thence as well as your selves 2 If you will goe to that Politie why may I not as well prove That the Civill Magistrate may ordaine as well as Moses did Aaron Levit. 8. 3 But in that Church at that time there were Officers Aaron and his sonnes thence if that be a rule it must follow
witty speech of him Let the Elders keep the keyes and the people the keyclog it proves so too often What our Divines have said about it is well knowne I thinke they have battered this notion pretty well Augustine sometime is quoted for this opinion but I am confident it was never in Augustines thoughts In Evan. Joan. Tract 50. Tract 124. I am mistaken if he be not rather for the Catholick Church by his words especially in the latter place quoted not mentioning what other Divines have spoken there are two or three things that have made me doubt of this so as I never did throughly close with this notion when I was but a private member of a Church 1. That which is the primum subjectum is the proprium subjectum none doubt of this Proprium subjectum est quod cum suo accidente reciprocatur Animal est proprium subjectum sensus homo risus hence we say omnis homo est risibilis omne risibile est homo this is Axioma 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but every Axiome that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth include in it the rule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where the predicate is true de omni subjecto omni loco omni tempore this is true of animal sensus So it must be true of the power of the keyes and the Fraternity Omni tempore but if we finde the power of the keyes exercised before there was a Fraternity then there was some other subject before the Fraternity When Paul came to Corinth he preached Authoritativè Ergo there was the power of the keyes in some subject but the Fratemity was Non-ens at this time how then could they be the subject Those who are the effect of the power of the keyes are not the first subject that is clear But the Fraternity is the effect it was so in all the Churches which the Apostles gathered and is indeed to this day This was one Argument troubled me So that which is primum is immediatum subjectum but how can this be since Mediantibus Apostolis and so now Mediantibus Ministris the Fraternity is made The elector is before the elected its true of Christ who elected the Apostles and gave to them the keyes from whom by a continued succession of Ministers still the Fratemity was made but had not the power of the keyes had some effect there had not been a Fraternity to choose an Officer though they are now in time before him whom they now elect yet they were not before him or them quâ fratres who by the power of the keyes in the ministry made them capable to choose an Officer therefore the power of the keyes was in some subject before them Besides election is no part of the power of the keyes Doma log p. 461. Keckes syst log l. 2. c. 20. therefore to argue the people elect ergo they are the first subject c. is fallacia non causae procansâ causae nomen hic usurpat ur pro quo vis argumento taking that to be a part of the power which is not 2 If so that which is primum est absolutum subjectum cui accidens absolutè sint ulla limitatione partis inharet sic animal est absolutum subjectum sensus adeoque visus auditus ideoque tantum animal dicitur rectê videre audire oculus non videt propriè quia non est Animal quando ergo oculus dicitur videre id non subjectivè intelligendum est sed instrumentaliter quod animal videat per oculum To apply this to our case the power of the keyes is in the whole body so the power of preaching c. there is the power subjectivè propriè so that if we aske who preached to day we must answer properly and subjectively the people preached but instrumentally only the Pastor preached so for the administration of the Sacraments this is very harsh hence againe because animal videt if a man dye or beast the eye which was the instrument of seeing excepting it may be the dissipation of the animal spirits else as an Organ it remains intire in the coates humors and optick nerves but yet it sees not So it seemes a Minister in case his body the people should dye he being but the instrument of their preaching he can preach no more this is strange how doe they preach out of their own bodies ordinatily If the men dye and only women and children be left the officer hath lost his preaching and cannot preach to them authoritatively because the Fraternity in whom the power was subjectivè is dead 3 I have observed that seven have been esteemed enough to make a Church suppose now one of these should offend another of the seven he must deale with him if he will not heare he must take two more here are four of the seven if he will not hear them tell the Church that is the three left the rest are parties Some to prove that Mat. 16. To thee I give the Keyes must be meant the Fraternity say that To Thee here is the same with Mat. 18. But this is somewhat doubted for that in Mat. 18. may well bee meant of a particular Church The visible Church is here meant saith Mr. Hoober Sur. p. 278. but in this place the Church must bee meant of the Catholike visible Church for it must be such a Church as must not faile But particular Churches may this or that particular Church I meane 2 But suppose i the so yet why must that Mat. 18. be meant only of the Fraternity Tell the Church i. e. the Fraternity if hee will not heare the Church i. e. the Fraternity where are the Officers are they no body one in New England would needs know of me why they should tell the Ministers of it when as it is Tell the Church not the Ministers this indeed would confirme it and here we should have brave order Mr. Vind. vin p. 6. Cawdry upon that Text seemes to have a good Argument since that the Kingdome of Heaven is there meant the Church the keyes are given to Peter as distinguished from the Church It is not a reasonable construction saith he of the Text to say I give to thee the keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven that is of the Church and to mean I give to the Church the keyes of the Church whence he concludes they were given to Peter and so to the Officers for the Church as the keyes are given to the Steward for the family This Argument is worth the Answering Object The strongest Objection to mee is this the first subject takes up the whole adjunct for there is a reciprocation therefore the Presbytery cannot be the first subject for the keyes are not reciprocated with them instance is given in Election Admission of Members Discipline which cannot be performed without the Fraternity Answ If reciprocation be so required c. then this will as well deny the people to bee first
proceedeth whether the people obey or not it was therefore their revenge by way of censure in Discipline which they had in readines when the obedience of the Church is fulfilled in discerning and approving the equity of the Censure which the Apostle or Elders have declared to them from the word That phrase discerning and approving of the equity needs a little more clearing but I leave them However this Reverend Divine seems to refer that obedience unto the wil of Christ by the words going before his exposition yet that hinders not but it may in some sence be applyed to their officers who also obey Christ for that phrase is not strange to have people obey their officers Heb. 13.17 O bey your Rulers there may be some thing in it not only obey your Teachers but Rulers when they rule as when they preach Mr. Norton expressing Resp ad Apol. p. 67. as I conceive how the brethren act with the Eldership for so I remember it was in his Tables which I had had some thoughts to have Printed them but in that great fire when Colchester was besiedged having lent them to a friend they were burnt as I heare Partes judicii in rebus jurisdictionis quales sunt fratrum examinatio dijudicatio sententiatio Causae per modum obedientiae Presbyterio debitae 2 Cor. 10.16 cap. 2.9 Mr. Gillespie also besides his own opinion giveth reasons Aar rod p. 289 c. and alledgeth divers Divines who interpret this place of Church censures these words when your obedience is fulfilled gives him one ground for his interpretation for as Estius and Novarinus explain the Apostles reason it is in vain to excommunicate all such as are worthy of excommunication when there is a generall renitency in the Church but still we observe the people act obedientially to their officers that they did not at that time was their fault Besides if excommunication be the highest act of Rule and therefore cannot be performed where Rulers are not as saith Mr. Cotton and if a homogeneall body can expresse no spirituall Jurisdiction but onely withdraw as saith Master Burroughs then the people having Rulers are not now made Rulers nor have the power of jurisdiction there is indeed jurisdiction exercised among them by reason of their Rulers to whom they consent and obey Government is proper to the Presbytery saith acute Mr. Norton Resp ad Apol. p 65 67 and shewes under seven particulars how the Presbyters governe in Church affairs and so in this exercise of Discipline if so then the people are governed in this act how then doth a people governed act in reference to Rulers governing but by way of obedience So that to mee there appeares a vaste difference betweene the power of Discipline as it is in the hands of the Presbytery and as in the hands of the people though the Ministers cannot excommunicate without the people I speake a few words to this point here because I would spare the labour in another place As for the Analogy drawne from the civill power the people are the first subject of civill power Ergo the Fraternity is the first subject of Church power For the Antecedent I leave that but the consequence I should deny there is a great disproportion First The People are not the effect of their Magistrates or follow after them as the people of Israel were not of Saul but the Fraternity quâ sic is the effect of the Ministry The Apostles converted and after them the Ministers converted Converting is but to make the people such for whom the power of the keyes is given Secondly There is some thing in this In Corporations if the people have elected a man to be an Alderman or Mayor if he refuse it there is a Fine set upon him some have been fined 20 li. some more according as the Corporations are but if the body of the people will choose an Officer and he will refuse it what then I know no kind of Church act that reaches him this shewes there is something more in civill then Church power Thirdly The people do give to their Magistrates a power to make Lawes c. for their good but the Church gives no power into the hands of her Ministers but they have all their power immediately from Christ Fourthly Hence the people may limit their people or inlarge it But the people cannot limit nor inlarge the power the Ministers have Fiftly We see the Magistrates Act in the name of the people in the name of the Commonwealth of England but Ministers doe not act in the name of the Church but Christ as saith Mr. Burroughs and Mr. Norton before quoted More might be produced but I content my selfe with these and though that maxime be received Salus populi Suprema lex yet it hinders not but the people may save themselves though they be not the first subject of the keyes Mr. Richardson whom Dr. Ames and Mr. Manuscr Tables Hooker honoured much and follow much placeth the power of binding and loosing in the Governours not in the people This discourse I have runne into by answering to the first Proposall which being the maine I have bestowed more lines about it the rest I shall run over quickly Come we now to the second The second Proposall may be this The second Proposall No Congregational Divine dares put the forme of a Church in the explicitenesse of the Covenant but these doe Survey pare first p. 47 48. Wee would have an explicite Covenant in every particular Church this we judge to be the forme of a Church and we cannot joyne with a Church without it A. Many people have taken up this by the end a Covenant is the forme of a Church understanding it of an explicite Covenant but they know not what a Forme is if they did they would be more wary then they are But let us heare what Congregationall men say from whom you take up this word 1 Mr. Hooker saith an implicite Covenant preserves the true nature of the true Church c. and an implicite Covenant is when in their practise they doe that whereby they make themselves ingaged to walke in such a society according to such rules of government which are exercised amongst them and so submit themselves thereunto but doe not make any verball profession thereof Thus the people in the Parishes in England when there is a Minister put upon them by the Patron or Bishop they constantly hold them to the fellowship of the people in such a place attend all the Ordinances there used and the Dispensations of the Minister so imposed upon them c. by such actions they declare that by their practises which others hold forth by publick profession thus farre Mr. Hooker so Mr. Norton Resp ad Apollon p. 22.28 so the Confession of Church Disc by the Synod of New England 2 You have a Nationall Covenant a solemne one I thinke it is strong enough if you
meane unlesse all the people consent I would not consent to the Presbyteriall Ministers in this that some few particular persons guilty it may be themselves in some degree shall obstruct the sentence when the sounder and major part of the Church consents heare their owne words In the great Censure of Excommunication Lond. vindic p. 25 we say That it ought not to be executed against the consent of that particular Congregation to which the party to be Excommunicated belongs The fifth Propos this is full The fifth Proposall We would have the liberty to Prophesie as 1 Cor. 14 c. A. What doe you meane by Prophesying or Prophets If you meane such Prophets as we finde in 1 Cor. 14. 12. c. you have two things to prove 1 That these were Prophets in no Office 2 Rutherf Div. right presbyt p. 271. Gillesp Mis c. 5 That the gift of Prophesying there mentioned was ordinary and perpetuall of the Presbyteriall Divines you have two men there may be more for ought I know to grapple with that have strongly debated this question and have answered all that is brought Of the Congregationall Divines I finde two men of no small worth who though in some extraordinary case in places where Ministers are not to be had if there be any able Christian fit to speake they would grant such a liberty in a regular way but for the places you bring to prove that it is an Ordinance of Christ for private members to prophesie Keys 20. they oppose this Mr. Cotton saith That place 1 Cor. Resp ad Apol. p. 125. 14.31 doth not speake of ordinary private members but of men furnished with extraordinary gifts he proves it afterward Mr. Norton saith Prophesie concerning which Paul speaks 1 Cor. 14. is not to be understood of any ordinary and perpetuall gift whatever much lesse of an ordinary and perpetuall gift of private brethren and that he proves I intend not to lanch forth Into this Controversie for others have answered all those arguments that are brought but let me say this When I considered these places 1 Cor. 12.28 God hath set some in the Church first Apostles secondarily Prophets thirdly Teachers The 29. verse Are all Apostles are all Prophets are all Teachers In the same order he reckons them So Ephes 4.11 He gave some Apostles some Prophets c. So Act. 13. 1. There was in the Church at Antioch certaine Prophets and Teachers as Barnabas c. Prophets have ever their place next Apostles and are ranked before Teachers these texts are to me strong proofes that these Prophets were no such private men as ours nor their gifts ordinary those that would be such must needs take place of their officers you are before them for these Prophets are alwayes placed before ordinary officers That 1 Cor. 13.2 and 14. v. 22.30 these places wel considered will prove it was no ordinary gift But I would leave that way of arguing and would argue against it from what I have observed about it 1. It is needlesse what need is there of it I have observed that the ordinary time when these Prophets goe to worke is after the Ministers have done preaching what need is there of these men now to goe to Prophesying why doe they not goe home and meditate upon the Sermons they have heard and call them over in their families but for sooth now the brethren must goe to Prophesie 2. It is not onely needlesse but it is dangerous Satan hath a designe in it First to undermine the power of the word preached these persons who have heard two Sermons before run now to Prophesying where is the word the people heard before Tortul hath an observation of the hereticks then Nec suis praesidibus reverentiam noverunt hoc est quod schismata apud hereticos fere non sunt quia cum sint non apparent schismata Praescrip adv Haeâ—â—t This is very true of these kinde of people so far as I have observed among most of them this fine thing hath put out that Secondly his designe is to blast the Ministers for I have observed Ministers nor their preaching is in any request with this generation and the people are more taken with their prophesying being a pretty new conceit then they are with their officers preaching be it never so solid A neare friend of mine yet living a Divine well knowne travelling into Germany coming home in Holland he went to heare Mr. Ainsworth who preached a very strong Sermon the person was able to judge while Mr. Ainsworth was preaching my friend observed the carriage of his members it was he thought not becoming the Ordinance I will not write all he told me left I should be thought to write out of malice very dull and dead that was the fairest when Mr. Ainsworth had done they now were to prophesie my friend said he observed that those who sate so dully and unreverently while their Pastor was preaching very excellently now their turne came to prophesie rose up and were so perke and lively that he could but note their carriage The word preached by officers though never so able doth little good where this trade is driven 3. I have observed order with peace and unity is seldome or never kept where these persons flourish one thinkes his parts are as good as his brothers this man he carps and findes fault with his brothers doctrine then come differences in and heart-burnings this man would be thought to be the chiefe and most called upon to exercise another likes not that jangling discord breaches I have knowne to be the fruit of this good work 4. I have rarely knowne any of these persons that were humble men the bones of pride and selfe-conceitednesse have stucke out shamefully in the chiefe of those whom I have knowne what others are whom I have not knowne I cannot tell but the most gracious savoury humble persons that I have knowne though as able as those who are so forward yet they cannot be brought to this practice but content themselves in improving what talents they have otherwise 5. I doe not finde private men to be so able as these suppose themselves to be some particular persons Christians of good experience and ripe understandings and some that are schollars may be able to speake to some points very well but most what our Prophets deliver either vile errours as I have knowne or else wrong the Scriptures very grosly many times This man doth use to prophesie much this is commendable in him that he is adverse to other errours I have known other Christians besides him very eminent and sound yet give grosse interpretations of plaine Scripture One of late was handling that Text of Cornelius Act. 10. that he was a devout man prayed gave almes c. he cast this glosse upon it that Cornelius was but as our devout Papists that use also to pray and give almes this is strange that
liberty yet he so ordereth their liberty that our Ministers would be glad if they had their Churches governed as is the Church whereof himselfe together with Mr. Na. Rogers are officers these are Congregationall men De schismate I will not rehearse what I finde in Camero because he wrote before these times and will be reckoned for a Presbyterian foure grounds he gives for separation none of which I am sure our Separatists can alleadge 1. Grievous and intolerable persecution 2. When the Church is Heretical 3. When Idolatry is set up 4. When the Church is the seat of Antichrist I shall conclude with a speech of his Vt nihil aequè arguit ingenium spiritus Christi ac studium conservandae societatis unionis in quo charitas elucet sic etiam nullum est evidentius argumentum pravitatis ingenii humani unde inter carnis opera contentienes nominantur quà m tumultuandi rixandi studium Object But you have spoken against godly men all this while Ans Not against their godlinesse one word their schisme errors only I have opposed But I know not what new Divinity we have got up in these dayes that if they be godly men that drinke in errours or practise inordinately Oh take heed how you speake they are godly men there may be an unwise speaking when men shall onely fling out against persons but confute nothing but certainly godly men deserve reproofe as well as others I hope the being of a godly man doth not make that to be no sinne in him which is sinne in another but here is the subtilty of Satan and it was all the game he had to play in those times I must now saith he get into an Angel of light and I must worke among these godly professors This wâ—â— Satans plot in Cyprians time as he mentions in his booke De unitä Eccles yet when he saw his heathenish worship would not prosper but was cast down then hee plagued the Church with heresie and schisme if I can get some of those away I shall get other hollow ones to cleave to them and make a party If I now make not a division among them but that they joyne all with one shoulder to set up Christs Kingdome and thrust down mine it will go hard with my kingdome now therefore finde fault with the Ordination of Ministers it was Popish so separate from them plead conscience that is a tender peece strive for exact purity though it be beyond the rule as to visible Church-fellowship and thus he hath found out his wayes to damp all the worke of Reformation I shall say no more but this though some of these Separatists are godly men yet if godly men stand thus as now we do I beleeve God will not spare us though we be godly men but he will ere long bring such plagues upon the professing party in England as shall make their hearts ake For my part I look on England thus there have been choice servants of God in England who laboured under the Hierarchicall oppression many strong cryes have they made for the removall of that burden and that they might enjoy him in his owne Ordinances without the mixtures of mens inventions God hath given us in the answer of those prayers as to the removing of what offended and now saith God looke you to it yee Professors I give the power which never your Fathers saw into the hands of the Puritanicall * The old scoffe party let me now see how you will improve it for the advancement of my Church and glory but verily if we improve it no better then now we do we must look that God will not intrust us with this power long he doth not use to stay long before he visits his Churches but quickly deprive us of this liberty and Lord if thou doest thou shalt be just Having done with the Separatists I shall now take a short view of the agreements and differences that are with and between the Classical and Congregational Divines and then shall make bold to present an humble request to the Congregational Divines 1. Do the Classical-brethren stand for all the Ordinances of Christ as Praying Preaching Sacraments Discipline c so doe the Congregational-brethren 2. Do the Classical-brethren stand for Christs officers Pastors sach ers Ruling-elders Deacons allowing such and onely such o doe the Congregational-brethren They agree in worship and in officers 3. Do the Classical-brethren hold to the old doctrines of Faith Repentanee holding up the preaching of the Law in its method to prepare before faith to guide after faith so do the Congregational-brethren such as we looke upon as sound and esteem worth the regarding 4. Do the Classical-brethren hold the government of the Church to be Presbyterial so do the Congregational-men such as are the most acute Besides what Mr. Norton none of the lowest ranke hath asserted in his book which I quoted before I have heard him say That if the Congregational-government did make the government of the Church democratical he would give up the cause For my part I am but among the weakest of Gods Ministers but yet I thinke it were no hard matter to prove the government of the Church to be Aristocratical I enter not now into the debating of the question but this hath much stucke with me First there is government in the Church I meane an externall politie besides an internall government of the Spirit what ever our phantastical Spiritualists have dreamed of the Scripture is too plain against these Secondly then there are governours and governed this must needs be yeelded else government cannot be for governours there are none that are sound in their wits can deny if they owne the Scriptures Thirdly the affaires then of the Church must be so carried that these Relates may be kept distinct for that government which destroys these by making the Correlate i. the body governed to be governour and so there are none governed cannot possibly be a government standing so much with the light of nature There is no government if all rule Obj. But how can the government of the Church be Aristocraticall when as you carry things by the suffrage of the people Answ I should desire also to propound these questions First would you not if now Churches were constituting give the people this liberty that if any could bring in good testimony against a man who was to bee received into the Church that they should do it and if the thing be proved will not you refuse to admit such a one Secondly if it now come to casting out of a member will not you give liberty to any of the brethren who shall first asking you leave to speak in a sober grave way propound some question to the clearing of the case in hand before the people joyn with you in cutting off a member I say would not you give this liberty Thirdly will you excommunicate renitente ecclesiâ
same minde I know not nay I have observed the spirits of some Congregational-Ministers carried with more eagernesse against the Classical-brethren then è converso and I am sure if there be any blame among the Ministers it is charged most upon the Congregational-men whether justly or no it concernes you to cleare your selves Besides at this time the Civill power most smiles upon you and now it is a good time to shew you seeke the peace and flourishing of all Churches by joyning with your fellow-brethren and not to be content though your Interest be safe unlesse the whole may have comfort as well as your selves for you cannot but judge that there are more true visible Churches then those which are called Independent Churches and that there be others that are true Ministers besides the Independent Ministers why then should not the comfort of these Churches and Ministers be sought which cannot be unlesse your selves be pleased to declare against these errours and schismes of the times and fall in with these Ministers to carry on the worke of Christ together Let mee I beseech you present to your view a few things to be considered First the Classical men have bid very faire for peace and agreement with you heare their words Lond. in Vind. p. 120. 121. We doe here manifest our willingnesse te accommodate with you according to the word in a way of union and such of us as are Ministers to preach up and to practise a mutuall forbearance and toleration in all things that may consist with the sundamentals of Religion what need then any other Toleration with the power of godlinesse and with that peace which Christ hath established in his Church but to make ruptures in the body of Christ and to divide Church from Church c. there is no warrant for this out of the word The page before this they offer as much as this and speake so Christianly and ingenuously that it must needs move any Christian heart that loves the peace and prosperity of the Churches to meet them halfe way and not suffer any differences more to appeare As for that exception they make the ruptures of Churches I thinke it to be a very just exception that golden rule hath place here ut tibi sic aliis would any of us be content to have other Ministers take from us the best of our people that have chosen us before and owned us for their officers say what you please you are men and I know it would be a strong temptation when as for want of these also their hands are weakned in the carrying on of Reformation in their Churches If you take away the best who are the joy of a Minister take away the worst also If you live neare a place where there is no Minister and take in such Christians to you as the place affords and returne them when the place is furnished or if there be a Minister and but few Christians so that he cannot give the Lords Supper with comfort if he and his people will joyne with you they may none oppose this but when a godly Minister hath visible Saints sufficient in his Parish to have these taken from him is such a thing which I would not have offered to me therefore I would not offer the same to another I know where the pinch lyes on the Ministers part Our maintenance ariseth from the members c. but for this the State hath provided an answer and certainly it is a great mercy reforme you in the place where you live take none but Scriputre-visible-Saints to the Sacraments catechize and doe what you can to reforme the rest the State hath provided for your maintenance none shall keepe it from you as well as the word gives it you Gal. 6. Let him that is taught in the word communicate to him that teacheth in all good things Christ sent Paul not to baptize but to preach the Gospel 1 Cor. 1.17 preaching is the spending worke and the chiefe of this all the Parish are partakers I am ready to dispense the Seales to all visible Saints therefore I know no scruple why I should not receive from all since all receive from me O but your members will not be content with this I know not but your members may finde God in a godly reformed Classicall Church we see the differences are very small but suppose the worst let then your members remove into the Parishes where you live and this is no offence to any if they say It will something hinder their estate Mr. Burroughs wil tel them then they love their bodies better then their soules Expos Hos c. 2. v. 1.2 p. 225. if they looke upon things very much concerning their soul and will not buy them with some abatement of their profit could this have beene once enjoyed New England sufferers had not been there now Though Parishes are not Churches yet Ministers care must be bounded some where I presume you are willing to close so that you may not sin I beseech you first what sinne is it to let a godly Classicall man enjoy his owne members Secondly What sinne is it to admit a visible Saint and member of a Classical Church to communion with you Thirdly what sinne is it to declare against the errours and schismes of the times you see it is the thoughts of the New England Divines that through our too much connivence at these this inundation of errours is like to destroy all If these three be but yeelded I beleeve you may live and enjoy your liberty of conscience and no man will trouble you 2. A second consideration is this you see those who call for agreement they are no babes they are men holy learned excellently gifted and the arguments they give for their Classical forme of government are not slight but such as deserve strong heads to answer it may be my shallownesse but truly I cannot yet see some things they plead for to be clearly answered as their arguments for the Catholick-Church-visible their arguments for their Presbyterial Church from the Church of Jerusalem Corinth c. yet I have read the answers with a kinde of prejudice against the Classical way being before engaged in the Congregational-way and usually then men are apt to make a little serve the turne But I cannot yet be satisfied and that such a Church as is in this small village where I live should have equall power with the Church of Corinth and be exempted from all other power though which God forbid we should walke scandalously is a peece of Divinity that I cannot yet beleeve There seemes to be something in that which learned Mr. Hudson hinteth from 1 Cor. 14.34 Let your women keepe silence in the Churches Here are Churches in Corinth he doth not say Let women but Let your women that indeed which is a rule for the Churches of Corinth is a rule for all Churches those Congregations are called Churches yet one combined Church
observe it well there is that which answers the Covenants you finde made in Scripture To say by that we are made a Nationall Church this were very silly yet I thinke there may be so much said for a Nationall Church that will not readily be answered But suppose the Churches in New England which God forbid should decline c. If the Generall Court should make such a Covenant to passe through all the Churches in the Colony would it make a Nationall Church they would conceive their Churches still to be Congregationall 3 I make no doubt but you should have found if you had but a little patience that when the Ministers had come to set up Discipline they would have brought their people under some stricter tye to subject to Church Discipline I have heard some speake of it they would have found it too laxe that implicite consent to make people put in execution that Matth. Read his first chapter in some Churches he saith there was Solennis protestatio subjection is sub discipliná Ecclesiasticâ p. 13. 18.15 16 c. as some have found before them and it was not without some cause that Apollonius sets downe that as one thing that is required of a Church-Member and whom they will admit to the Lords Supper That he shall promise to subject himselfe to Discipline he tells us thus it was concluded upon in severall Synods he mentions fix Synods I have found the experience of this so already that I should thinke my selfe in a poore case to exercise Discipline without it the people feele some stricter tye upon their spirits and I thanke God I have knowne good effects by it 4 If you will needs goe closer doe you may enter into a close Covenant as did those worthy Christians in Wetherfield in that old Prophets dayes who sets downe their Covenant in his seven Treatises but they did not separate as you doe Excell those Christians if you can The third Proposall The third Proposall We would have no Church-Members but visible Saints A. This were a thing to be wished indeed and that I beleeve which the Ministers would be glad if they could attaine it I gave you instances before out of their Bookes and it is that which they would put forth their power to effect so farre as the state of the Kingdome is capable of if once they were invested with power to exercise Discipline and indeed as the condition of England stands there is need of a Civill Power to back them the case is not now as in the Primitive times 2 You must put a difference between Churches new erecting and these in England which have been Churches so long when I raise a house new from the ground I may then doe as I please but if I be mending of an old house I must doe as well as I can repaire by degrees 3 What would you have done with all the rest Excommunicate them that 's a peece of work indeed and besides there is a great deale of worke to doe before we come to that it may be many will not be found contumacious nay you see they doe separate them from the Lords Supper and divers begin to looke something more narrowly to baptisme 4 How many corrupt Members doe you finde in the Church of Corinth and Galatia for the latter what a change was there made in their affections towards Paul Gillesp Aar rod. 287. who close did they cleave to those Judaizing Zelots who turned them away almost to another Gospel insomuch that though Paul wished those Seducers were cut off Gal. 5.12 i. e. by Excommunication yet he did not peremptorily command it renitente Ecclesiâ The Church of Corinth had drunke in vile errours the women it should seeme disorderly would speake in the Church and for Members 2 Cor. 12.20 21. you may conceive by the sins there mentioned what they were many of them Ch. 13.2 Aar rod 289. Paul indeed saith he wil not spare them This place Master Gillespie thinkes gives light to Ch. 10. 6. When your obedience is fulfilled our Ministers debarresuch from the Supper 5 If you did not thus separate from them they might doe more towards the reforming of their Congregations but you weaken their hands as I shall touch hereafter 6 But what doe you meane by visible Saints what is required or how would you judge of one what would you have them reall Saints I suppose you doe not thinke so crosse to the texts the Floore the Drag-net c. what would you have such as by the exactest scrutiny that can be made we may judge to be Saints really I defire your Texts for this Did the Apostles doe thus when they baptised any surely they must either judge by an Apostolicall Spirit but we see they were mistaken if they did so or else they must stay a good while and try men winter them The Churches after took more time but they did not come to that exact scrutiny c. Bell. ener to 2. l. 2. c. 1. s 5. and summer them as we say before they did judge of their Saint-ship but this they did not doe they baptised them quickly such Members as the Apostles admitted we may or else give us texts to the contrary I have touched this in another Tract desiring that those who are for such strictnesse in Members would give us their grounds remember Doctor Ames Falsum est internas virtutes a nobis requiri ut aliquis sit in Ecclesiâ quoad visibilem ejus statum The fourth Proposall We would have power in admission of Members and in Excommunication Ans For admission of Members 1 When you bring proofe out of the Word what power Church-Members have exercised in admission of Members I hope you shall finde none shall debarre you from having that power 2 When there are Members to be admitted who never were Church-Members you shall finde it granted but that is not our case here if you would have power in admission to Sacraments you have that liberty given you to bring in Testimonie for or against and if you bring in sufficient proofes against persons you shall finde they shall not be admitted thus must you doe in any Church what-ever If any good Christian shall come and give in testimony for another the Minister will gladly receive it For Excommunication the Presbyteriall Ministers will not Excommunicate without the peoples consent you shall have liberty first asking leave of the Minister who is the Ruler and Mouth of the Congregation to propound any question soberly and gravely which you would have cleared before you manifest your consent if there be any thing darke to you that so you may clearly obey them for I hope you doe not looke to be equall with Officers in this Act and I hope this is more then ever you saw practised in old times Now that the Ministers will not Act against the people I suppose they meane the Body of the People for if they